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The Lib Dems are carving out a strong anti Trump position – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,631
    edited February 21

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

    Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

    I’ve noticed several of them deliberately tagging JD Vance and Musk in their tweets, to provoke a reaction.

    Davey already had an online attack from Musk a few weeks ago. They must have seen the engagement numbers from that and thought “hmm, let’s get a bit more”.
    The Lib Dems are political prostitutes with few punters.
    Pretty weak attack line.

    29 gains more from the Tories and Sir Ed is His Majesty´s leader Leader of the Loyal Opposition.

    The next locals could demonstrate that this is more than possible.

    I am more than sure that there will be increasingly vicious attacks on the Lib Dems, I am increasingly sure that they won´t work.
    Given most current polls have the Tories closer to Labour and Reform than the LDs are to the Tories very unlikely.

    Indeed the Greens are now closer to the LDs than the LDs are to the Tories polling wise
    The Lib Dem national vote percentage is irrelevant- 2024 showed us that. It's all about doing another 30 hyper local campaigns saying "Vote for us, because we're nice people in your community. Even Kemi says so."

    Thirty gains from the Conservatives takes the Lib Dems down to Wiltshire East on the target list. Right now, the scores there are:
    Con 17k
    Labour 12k
    LD 8k
    Ref 8k

    Stretchy, but definitely doable by the yellows.
    The LDs won lots of seats in 2024 because the Tory voteshare was barely more than half what it was in 2019, little to do with 'hyper local campaigns' except in seats they won narrowly.

    Now it is the Labour voteshare down significantly with the Tory voteshare little changed, so the Tories will gain many more seats from Labour than they lose to the LDs on current polls, indeed they will probably lose more seats to Reform than the Liberals
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    edited February 21
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

    Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

    If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

    Yep. That's how special you are.
    Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
    Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
    Who are these idiots?
    What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?
    I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.
    Sure: he was elected on the basis of grievance, that the rest of the world was taking advantage of the US. And that he would redress that balance.

    Unfortunately - and I speak as someone who lives in the US, and love the US and its people - I think he will manage the opposite.

    I think his tariffs policies will be counterproductive, and I think he underestimates the benefits that have accrued to the US for being the leader of the free world. I think he's also so caught up on Oppositionalism, that he is likely to significantly damage the competitiveness of the US by attempting to slow the inevitable electrification of energy.

    I also think his actions will encourage nuclear proliferation, and may well result in many countries falling into the Chinese orbit, because (while the Chinese government is awful), they don't publicly humiliate them on Twitter.

    I have no doubt that you are correct and his intentions will end up rebounding on the very people who voted for him.

    But that is no different to Brexit, now, is it. We voted for Brexit and in so doing made ourselves worse off and distanced ourselves from our former trade partners and allies.

    I mean who on earth would have voted for that, eh?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,593
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1892985411850424600

    Trump on Gaza: "It's a great location. I don't know why Israel ever gave that up ... it's one of the bad real estate deals."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,914

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

    Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

    If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

    Yep. That's how special you are.
    Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
    Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
    Who are these idiots?
    What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?
    I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.
    Polling is starting to suggest that, actually, Americans don’t agree with the specific cruelties and corruptions of Trump in power.

    I don’t believe Americans support cosying up to Putin, nor the up-ending of 80 years of geopolitical strategy.
    In which case he will be voted out next time round. We have a similar thing here in the UK with Starmer's Lab.
    Trump is chewing through the firewalls that make elections competitive.

    Your complacency is beyond stupid, it is actively malign.
    Correct. And while Topping is not the sharpest he's no fool and he's not a hard right type. So I deduce it's a troll.
    Which brings me back to my original question.
    What kind of satisfaction does he derive?
    Not 100% sure. Apparently because it annoys people like me - but I'd imagine there's a bit more to it than that. There's some sort of 'need' being met.

    No doubt he'll elaborate if he wants to.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,481
    edited February 21
    As an aside, I see that the Republican Party has caught onto the risk that the New York 21st Congressional District might not be so safe in the event of a Special Election, and are now extremely slow playing the confirmation of Elise Stefanik for Ambassador to the United Nations.

    I wouldn't be surprised at all to see her nomination pulled, so as to maintain the Republicans (very fragile) House lead.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "Zelenskyy to sign mineral deal with US soon-White House"

    https://x.com/WarMonitor3/status/1892972161020633331

    If people keep rolling over and giving this fucker what he wants he will just be more emboldened.
    The source that Ukraine is going to roll over and give the White House minerals is the White House demanding those minerals.

    That's like me saying I'm going to marry Kylie Minogue - it may be my wish but it isn't reality...
    I was taking JJ’s post on trust. Didn’t read the tweet.
    I copied the entire text of the tweet into my post, and linked to the post.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,481

    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the first country to announce that they have acquired nuclear weapons?

    My guess is Taiwan, because I think the effective removal of the US security blanket makes their need pressing. Once Taiwan goes, then I think South Korea and Israel will probably follow. Then Iran.

    I doubt Japan -given its history- will publicly announce nuclear capability. But they will certainly want to be there.

    Israel already has the bomb.
    Which is why I said "announce".
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    1984 as "instruction manual".

    Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

    Yawn yawn yawn.

    Apart from anything else they show how little Orwell that they have read!

    He did criticise and lampoon Communism, but it was from a very left wing perspective. In animal Farm he was against Napoleon, but certainly against the Farmer too. His sympathies were always with the revolutionaries.
    The right have no genuine intellectual heroes of their own so they have to twist and purloin from the left.

    They even try it with Martin Luther King! He'd have been anti-woke apparently.
    Hayek, Smith, Rand, Friedman, Kristol, Buckley, Scruton to name just a few rightwing, libertarian or conservative intellectuals
    Try Burke, Oakeshott, Berlin.
    Shoestring, Taggart, spender, Bergerac, Morse
    Lovejoy, Van der Valk, Dalgleish.
    Copper, Rosie, Goon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Gotta admit the thought had occurred to me.

    For more than a century, Britain was the world’s hegemon.

    The Second World War saw us hand that baton over to the United States.

    Now, after 80 years at the helm, the United States is tossing the baton into the air… for no reason at all.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/1892991110500295158#m

    Some might say it was coming anyway, or a good thing, but it's not fun to live through!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151
    viewcode said:


    Republicans against Trump
    @RpsAgainstTrump
    This isn’t a joke—Trump and MAGA are openly pushing for his dictatorship.

    At CPAC, where Trump is set to speak, MAGA activists launched the “Third Term Project,” comparing him to Julius Caesar and calling to keep him in power beyond 2028.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1892968771469381650

    ===

    The campaign is using a drawing of Trump as Caesar.

    It's a sensible political strategy to avoid the second-term lame duck phenomenon.
    There is a teeny possibility that you were actually making a joke there. If so...congratulations?
    It's the new discourse.

    All the "third term" talk is plausibly deniable as a joke. Indeed, within the bounds of what passes for Trump humour, it is.
    But it's also meant quite plainly.

    A president who takes the constitution seriously, doesn't issue an Executive Order which purports to impose himself as sole arbiter of how the constitution should be interpreted by the Justice Department.
    Nor would they have behaved as Trump did on Jan 6th four years ago.

    If he's not completely gaga or dead, come 2028, I think it fairly likely he'll have a go at staying on in the White House by whatever means come to hand at the time.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    1984 as "instruction manual".

    Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

    Yawn yawn yawn.

    Apart from anything else they show how little Orwell that they have read!

    He did criticise and lampoon Communism, but it was from a very left wing perspective. In animal Farm he was against Napoleon, but certainly against the Farmer too. His sympathies were always with the revolutionaries.
    The right have no genuine intellectual heroes of their own so they have to twist and purloin from the left.

    They even try it with Martin Luther King! He'd have been anti-woke apparently.
    Hayek, Smith, Rand, Friedman, Kristol, Buckley, Scruton to name just a few rightwing, libertarian or conservative intellectuals
    Try Burke, Oakeshott, Berlin.
    Shoestring, Taggart, spender, Bergerac, Morse
    Lovejoy, Van der Valk, Dalgleish.
    Copper, Rosie, Goon.
    None of those are London streets, so..

    'Not Mornington Crescent'!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    Yes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,914
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

    Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

    If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

    Yep. That's how special you are.
    Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
    Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
    Who are these idiots?
    What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?
    I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.
    Polling is starting to suggest that, actually, Americans don’t agree with the specific cruelties and corruptions of Trump in power.

    I don’t believe Americans support cosying up to Putin, nor the up-ending of 80 years of geopolitical strategy.
    In which case he will be voted out next time round. We have a similar thing here in the UK with Starmer's Lab.
    Trump is chewing through the firewalls that make elections competitive.

    Your complacency is beyond stupid, it is actively malign.
    Correct. And while Topping is not the sharpest he's no fool and he's not a hard right type. So I deduce it's a troll.
    Even people as dumb as @kamski can work out your and other PB posters' bleatings are simply the wailings of sulky student leftists being told that the Barclays branch in the Student Union will remain open.
    Look, all I'm doing is calling out your Trump support as a troll. It's by miles the most complimentary of the two possibilities.

    And you repay my kindness with insults.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,446
    Taz said:

    "Zelenskyy to sign mineral deal with US soon-White House"

    https://x.com/WarMonitor3/status/1892972161020633331

    If people keep rolling over and giving this fucker what he wants he will just be more emboldened.
    Whilst I agree with the sentiment in general it is a little harsh to apply it to Zelenskyy right now.

    His options are all at least as bad as this one, and he's being fucked worse than one of TSE's stepmums.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    She dealt with her ignominious ousting with a fair amount of dignity and reserve I felt, it cannot have been an easy time.

    It's easy to forget now but it was some months before she decided to rebrand as a Trump style agitator, or at least make that clear to the world.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,139
    edited February 21
    To show how delusional Trump is - this is the latest story from him

    *TRUMP: WE CAN DROP ILLEGAL DRUG USE BY 50 PERCENT
    *TRUMP: WE CAN DROP DRUG USE BY ANTI-DRUG AD CAMPAIGN

    Would love to see how he plans to do that unless the plan is to make a selection of drugs that make up 50% of the illegal drug market legal..
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,943
    edited February 21
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:


    Republicans against Trump
    @RpsAgainstTrump
    This isn’t a joke—Trump and MAGA are openly pushing for his dictatorship.

    At CPAC, where Trump is set to speak, MAGA activists launched the “Third Term Project,” comparing him to Julius Caesar and calling to keep him in power beyond 2028.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1892968771469381650

    ===

    The campaign is using a drawing of Trump as Caesar.

    It's a sensible political strategy to avoid the second-term lame duck phenomenon.
    There is a teeny possibility that you were actually making a joke there. If so...congratulations?
    It's the new discourse.

    All the "third term" talk is plausibly deniable as a joke. Indeed, within the bounds of what passes for Trump humour, it is.
    But it's also meant quite plainly.

    A president who takes the constitution seriously, doesn't issue an Executive Order which purports to impose himself as sole arbiter of how the constitution should be interpreted by the Justice Department.
    Nor would they have behaved as Trump did on Jan 6th four years ago.

    If he's not completely gaga or dead, come 2028, I think it fairly likely he'll have a go at staying on in the White House by whatever means come to hand at the time.
    There's also the Macbeth threshold to consider- when a government's actions in office have been so bad that its members daren't risk not being in office, so they double down on the wrongdoing.

    There was an element of that driving Trump to need to win last November. Whilst I doubt the current team have crossed that line yet, it definitely exists and I wouldn't be surprised if it were crossed in the next few years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    He can be fairly confident people don't care enough to ruin him because of his views on the subject, but he is smart enough to be cautious in displaying them nonetheless, obfuscate them a little, to give himself wiggle room.


  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    Well, we got to know so many of them, plucky little devils.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

    Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

    If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

    Yep. That's how special you are.
    Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
    Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
    Who are these idiots?
    What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?
    I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.
    Polling is starting to suggest that, actually, Americans don’t agree with the specific cruelties and corruptions of Trump in power.

    I don’t believe Americans support cosying up to Putin, nor the up-ending of 80 years of geopolitical strategy.
    In which case he will be voted out next time round. We have a similar thing here in the UK with Starmer's Lab.
    Trump is chewing through the firewalls that make elections competitive.

    Your complacency is beyond stupid, it is actively malign.
    Correct. And while Topping is not the sharpest he's no fool and he's not a hard right type. So I deduce it's a troll.
    Even people as dumb as @kamski can work out your and other PB posters' bleatings are simply the wailings of sulky student leftists being told that the Barclays branch in the Student Union will remain open.
    Look, all I'm doing is calling out your Trump support as a troll. It's by miles the most complimentary of the two possibilities.

    And you repay my kindness with insults.
    This is your refuge and go to and I get it. Not easy being in uncharted territory. You've been struggling since you joined PB although I do remember your very first post on here which was commendably open and honest. You should have carried on in that vein.
  • MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    maxh said:

    Taz said:

    "Zelenskyy to sign mineral deal with US soon-White House"

    https://x.com/WarMonitor3/status/1892972161020633331

    If people keep rolling over and giving this fucker what he wants he will just be more emboldened.
    Whilst I agree with the sentiment in general it is a little harsh to apply it to Zelenskyy right now.

    His options are all at least as bad as this one, and he's being fucked worse than one of TSE's stepmums.
    Ukraine is an existential position, literally, and history shows leaders and nations will accept horrendous outcomes as one step up from actual annihilation.

    That's why we wanted to help support Ukraine to not have to accept the worst case scenarios, but Trump was determined to undermine that.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with @kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    I see Tim Montgomerie is - very dimly - starting to realise he has accidentally joined the Putin Party.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    I'd say a lack of comfort around exuberant displays of emotion from political leaders is a big part too. A big effort is being made to give MAGA style rabble rousing a go, and we may have more of it, but I think the more understated approach still appeals more - even Farage is a far cry from the kind of performative style of US politicians.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    1984 as "instruction manual".

    Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

    Yawn yawn yawn.

    Apart from anything else they show how little Orwell that they have read!

    He did criticise and lampoon Communism, but it was from a very left wing perspective. In animal Farm he was against Napoleon, but certainly against the Farmer too. His sympathies were always with the revolutionaries.
    The right have no genuine intellectual heroes of their own so they have to twist and purloin from the left.

    They even try it with Martin Luther King! He'd have been anti-woke apparently.
    Hayek, Smith, Rand, Friedman, Kristol, Buckley, Scruton to name just a few rightwing, libertarian or conservative intellectuals
    Try Burke, Oakeshott, Berlin.
    Shoestring, Taggart, spender, Bergerac, Morse
    Lovejoy, Van der Valk, Dalgleish.
    Copper, Rosie, Goon.
    I suggest a simple 4-4-2 formation

    Goalkeeper: Popper

    Burke, Oakeshott, Berlin, Scruton

    Rand, Hayak, Ricardo, Buckley,

    Smith, Friedman

    Match officials: Thatcher, Lawson, Howe

    Selling British pork pies: Truss
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
  • Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with @kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,184

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    Generally people have to be an immediate danger to themselves or to others in order to get sectioned. I don't think Truss qualifies.

    Her behaviour since her ignominious exit pursued by a lettuce makes me think she has had a serious breakdown, and is hitting the bottle. Her entire life was about politics and it's over. All political careers end in failure, but rarely such spectacular spontaneous combustion.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,085
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    We always have. We even had a sneaking admiration, for many of those we fought.

    Over 200 years ago, we viewed Spain and Portugal the same way we now view Ukraine, and sent them a lot of military aid.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    edited February 21
    Omnium said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    1984 as "instruction manual".

    Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

    Yawn yawn yawn.

    Apart from anything else they show how little Orwell that they have read!

    He did criticise and lampoon Communism, but it was from a very left wing perspective. In animal Farm he was against Napoleon, but certainly against the Farmer too. His sympathies were always with the revolutionaries.
    The right have no genuine intellectual heroes of their own so they have to twist and purloin from the left.

    They even try it with Martin Luther King! He'd have been anti-woke apparently.
    Hayek, Smith, Rand, Friedman, Kristol, Buckley, Scruton to name just a few rightwing, libertarian or conservative intellectuals
    Try Burke, Oakeshott, Berlin.
    Shoestring, Taggart, spender, Bergerac, Morse
    Lovejoy, Van der Valk, Dalgleish.
    Copper, Rosie, Goon.
    None of those are London streets, so..

    'Not Mornington Crescent'!
    Copper St, London E20 3AZ

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/L5FaYNejKLutz24x9

    :smiley:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Have you actually spent any time in Britain?
    It honestly doesn’t sound like you have.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,438

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "Zelenskyy to sign mineral deal with US soon-White House"

    https://x.com/WarMonitor3/status/1892972161020633331

    If people keep rolling over and giving this fucker what he wants he will just be more emboldened.
    The source that Ukraine is going to roll over and give the White House minerals is the White House demanding those minerals.

    That's like me saying I'm going to marry Kylie Minogue - it may be my wish but it isn't reality...
    Congratulations on your forthcoming nuptials.
    He should be so lucky. Lucky, lucky, lucky. :)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 388
    edited February 21

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT:
    My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
    My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
    It's an absolute disgrace.
    Woke madness.

    Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
    As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
    They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist
    I sometimes go to a butcher in Golders Green. Guess what they sell and don’t sell.
    It's completely legal to sell horsemeat in England, but an awful lot of butchers just don't for some reason. I wouldn't describe that as a ban.
    Had some lovely horsemeat in Italy. Would love to be able to get some in London.
    awful lot of butchers just don't for some reason. I wouldn't describe that as a ban.

    It's a racing certainty you'll be able to find it.

    Once had a meal in a bullring in Spain. Guess what was on the menu?
  • Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    So? The public support for all those measures is also significantly lower than among Republican supporters. It's just how polarised our American friends are. What's also interesting is how unpopular most of those measures are overall.

    You're lovely, Big G, but your habit of projecting despair onto lefties isn't becoming of a distinguished gentleman.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    You could make an argument it’s completely consistent with British foreign policy for at least 200 years, especially in Europe. The strategy was to ensure no power grew to dominate European politics. That meant consistently working out who was the underdog and supporting them.

    That was not generally the case in empire, although Britain did sometimes use a similar approach to achieving power. Lawrence of Arabia’s actions in WW1 being an example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,631

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,806
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

    Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

    If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

    Yep. That's how special you are.
    Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
    Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
    Who are these idiots?
    What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?
    I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.
    Polling is starting to suggest that, actually, Americans don’t agree with the specific cruelties and corruptions of Trump in power.

    I don’t believe Americans support cosying up to Putin, nor the up-ending of 80 years of geopolitical strategy.
    Too late now.
    Yep. I don't particularly have a problem with Trump's Cultural Revolution trashing America, it's when he trashes the rest of the world that I object. We didn't get a vote.
    Well maybe you should have been a little less relaxed about our supine position toward the US, which has grown steadily worse every year since the War. Most people here were quite happy to be run by videocall from the US - I've had precisely squat interest when I've protested that the relationship was not in order for what is still a foreign country.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    That’s just statistically inevitable. The public consists of Democrats and Republicans and a few independents. It’s an average of those.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151
    edited February 21

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    Well, unless Republicans voters are neutral on those issues, - and in most cases, even if they were - that's pretty well inevitable, mathematically.

    But literally none of those policies have majority voter support, and the most impactful (mass deportation, and sacking federal employees) have barely started.
    If you imagine that they will be more popular when they do, then you're probably MAGA.
  • HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
    It's one possibility. She does seem to have really escalated in the past year, and that might be for career prospects, but if it is genuine it seems to have surprised many.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436

    I see Tim Montgomerie is - very dimly - starting to realise he has accidentally joined the Putin Party.

    Funny old game politics. Only a couple of weeks ago I felt (as an opponent of Reform) that all they had to do was to plough on with being economic fantasy social democrats circa 1955 + decent but clear low migration nationalists + NATO and sound defence and they were in with a real shout of keeping their lead.

    If they do (I suppose they might) then we are in trouble.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,353

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Have you actually spent any time in Britain?
    It honestly doesn’t sound like you have.
    Well I'm British and here right now, which makes it 2-0 to me.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398
    edited February 21
    ...
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the first country to announce that they have acquired nuclear weapons?

    My guess is Taiwan, because I think the effective removal of the US security blanket makes their need pressing. Once Taiwan goes, then I think South Korea and Israel will probably follow. Then Iran.

    I doubt Japan -given its history- will publicly announce nuclear capability. But they will certainly want to be there.

    Israel already has the bomb.
    Which is why I said "announce".
    I can't imagine that Israel will announce it.

    They stick rigidly to the never confirm, never deny policy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,631

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    Well obviously they do as half of US voters are Republicans!!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,398
    edited February 21
    Quotes getting messed up. But re bans, HYUFD isn;t protesting against mouflon meat or zebra meat not being available, sorry I meant, banned, in his local Tesco. Look here.

    https://www.keziefoods.co.uk/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Why? Look at the venue

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    Of course they do.
    If they didn't, then they'd be more likely to support Trump's policies than are Republican voters. Which seems implausible.
  • Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    So? The public support for all those measures is also significantly lower than among Republican supporters. It's just how polarised our American friends are. What's also interesting is how unpopular most of those measures are overall.

    You're lovely, Big G, but your habit of projecting despair onto lefties isn't becoming of a distinguished gentleman.
    I am sorry as I do not want to project despair on anyone, but the poll does indicate higher approval from the public

    Of course that could change and the one creating despair is Trump and I cannot see that changing unfortunately
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
    The pinpointed moment might have been 17th December 1538.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with @kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
    By observation, she was always odd, and continues to be odd. Odd can be good though, and there has to be a small comfy corner in the world where odd gets to put it feet up.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,085
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
    Yes. There was immense public sympathy for Spain and Portugal, in 1808-14.

    Crucially, Irish Catholics were for once entirely on the same side as English Protestants. Irish Catholics made up 25% of the army.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    Well, unless Republicans voters are neutral on those issues, - and in most cases, even if they were - that's pretty well inevitable, mathematically.

    But literally none of those policies have majority voter support, and the most impactful (mass deportation, and sacking federal employees) have barely started.
    If you imagine that they will be more popular when they do, then you're probably MAGA.
    I am absolutely not MAGA nor pro Farage as you should note from my posts
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    So? The public support for all those measures is also significantly lower than among Republican supporters. It's just how polarised our American friends are. What's also interesting is how unpopular most of those measures are overall.

    You're lovely, Big G, but your habit of projecting despair onto lefties isn't becoming of a distinguished gentleman.
    I am sorry as I do not want to project despair on anyone, but the poll does indicate higher approval from the public

    Of course that could change and the one creating despair is Trump and I cannot see that changing unfortunately
    With all due respect Big_G, I don't think you understand what those graphs are saying.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    I see Tim Montgomerie is - very dimly - starting to realise he has accidentally joined the Putin Party.

    Another of the 'Don't believe what people have said in the past, they probably don't mean it' genius commentators getting surprised?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,578
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    We always have. We even had a sneaking admiration, for many of those we fought.

    Over 200 years ago, we viewed Spain and Portugal the same way we now view Ukraine, and sent them a lot of military aid.
    The US wouldn't have obtained its independence from the Brits if they hadn't been given vast financial aid from France.

    Such a level of aid that it effectively brought France crashing down into revolution.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 796

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    I think you might be badly misreading the graphs.

    Overall support (Rep + Dem + others) is less than 50% for all of the policies.

    As Reps are more in favour of the policies than the Dems then the % of total will always be higher than % of Dem support for the policies.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,169
    eek said:

    To show how delusional Trump is - this is the latest story from him

    *TRUMP: WE CAN DROP ILLEGAL DRUG USE BY 50 PERCENT
    *TRUMP: WE CAN DROP DRUG USE BY ANTI-DRUG AD CAMPAIGN

    Would love to see how he plans to do that unless the plan is to make a selection of drugs that make up 50% of the illegal drug market legal..

    It's possible that Donald Trump is even dumber than we previously thought.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    edited February 21

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    So? The public support for all those measures is also significantly lower than among Republican supporters. It's just how polarised our American friends are. What's also interesting is how unpopular most of those measures are overall.

    You're lovely, Big G, but your habit of projecting despair onto lefties isn't becoming of a distinguished gentleman.
    I am sorry as I do not want to project despair on anyone, but the poll does indicate higher approval from the public

    Of course that could change and the one creating despair is Trump and I cannot see that changing unfortunately
    Again, nearly half the public are Republicans. Of course the “public” view will be more positive than the democrat view.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,184

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    Well isn't that obvious? Trump's policies are more popular with Republicans? Who could have predicted that?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,953
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    Well, we got to know so many of them, plucky little devils.
    If you don’t show a touch of magnanimity to the defeated, your empire looks like Shark Island.

    Which is wasteful, and a bit “not done” socially.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,806
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Have you actually spent any time in Britain?
    It honestly doesn’t sound like you have.
    Well I'm British and here right now, which makes it 2-0 to me.
    Backing the underdog is a legitimate part of statecraft. Think guaranteeing the neutrality of Belgium (though I don't agree with that one), the Don Pacifico affair etc. We also freed the slaves, so I think backing the underdog was shown there too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,184
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    Well isn't that obvious? Trump's policies are more popular with Republicans? Who could have predicted that?
    Perhaps you mean to look at the Independents, but that is way below the Republican column.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    So? The public support for all those measures is also significantly lower than among Republican supporters. It's just how polarised our American friends are. What's also interesting is how unpopular most of those measures are overall.

    You're lovely, Big G, but your habit of projecting despair onto lefties isn't becoming of a distinguished gentleman.
    I am sorry as I do not want to project despair on anyone, but the poll does indicate higher approval from the public

    Of course that could change and the one creating despair is Trump and I cannot see that changing unfortunately
    With all due respect Big_G, I don't think you understand what those graphs are saying.
    Quite possibly
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,806
    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
    It's one possibility. She does seem to have really escalated in the past year, and that might be for career prospects, but if it is genuine it seems to have surprised many.
    What's happened now?
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,446
    ...
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with @kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
    By observation, she was always odd, and continues to be odd. Odd can be good though, and there has to be a small comfy corner in the world where odd gets to put it feet up.

    Is that small comfy corner CPAC?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,184
    biggles said:

    From the BBC:

    ‘US president Donald Trump has said that he does not think it is "important" that Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky be present at peace talks with Russia.
    Speaking on Fox News, Trump said of Zelensky, "I don't think he's very important to be in meetings".
    The US president added, "He makes it very hard to make deals."’

    Every single speech by Churchill and others about Munich could be delivered today couldn’t they?

    Not only could, they are being delivered!
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,619
    edited February 21
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
    Hang on, isn’t the answer here that our Empire in full pomp was the blip? We were always small and nimble in Europe vs. the likes of France and Spain, and there is a lot to the “accidental empire” idea post civil war. Even at the height of empire we harkened back to Boudicca “regions Caesar never knew, thy posterity will conquer”.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208
    maxh said:

    ...

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Is liz Truss a useful idiot, or a useless idiot?

    She's far less clever than she thinks and she's far more clever than we think.

    If I was in her place I'd never have the strength of character to come back from her disasters. I hope she does.
    It’s not that she’s stupid.
    It’s that she’s batshit.

    There’s a decent case to be made that she ought to be sectioned.
    As discussed with @kle4 - I know you're a tough Kiwi, but could you have come back from what she's been through? (Obviously self-inflicted, but still)
    Absolutely not.
    And I genuinely believe that her response to events is manifesting as unhingedness.

    By accounts, she was always odd, now she’s totally cracked.
    By observation, she was always odd, and continues to be odd. Odd can be good though, and there has to be a small comfy corner in the world where odd gets to put it feet up.

    Is that small comfy corner CPAC?
    No, not there.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,835
    edited February 21

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    think youve misunderstood

    here is the poll

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/02/20/trump-policies-opposed-by-americans/

    "The Post-Ipsos poll tested about a dozen different Trump policies and efforts, ranging from mass-deportation to banning transgender people from the military to shuttering the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) to pardoning Jan. 6 defendants. All but two were unpopular, by an average of 25 points."
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,953
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
    It is probably in one of Orwell’s dissections of being British, but the underdog thing was always there.

    One of the reasons that Fascism was seen as un-British, by many, was precisely the hysterical worship of strength without any moderation.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 796
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    Well, unless Republicans voters are neutral on those issues, - and in most cases, even if they were - that's pretty well inevitable, mathematically.

    But literally none of those policies have majority voter support, and the most impactful (mass deportation, and sacking federal employees) have barely started.
    If you imagine that they will be more popular when they do, then you're probably MAGA.
    That's now MAGR Make America Greater Russia, correction stickers will be made available for all caps in due course...
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,237
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    Why ?
    The public support for each measure is higher than democratic support
    I think you might be badly misreading the graphs.

    Overall support (Rep + Dem + others) is less than 50% for all of the policies.

    As Reps are more in favour of the policies than the Dems then the % of total will always be higher than % of Dem support for the policies.
    I'd like to see those charts as nets rather than absolute support. 45 support, 40 oppose, 15 undecided is very different to 45/20/35
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,611
    algarkirk said:

    I see Tim Montgomerie is - very dimly - starting to realise he has accidentally joined the Putin Party.

    Funny old game politics. Only a couple of weeks ago I felt (as an opponent of Reform) that all they had to do was to plough on with being economic fantasy social democrats circa 1955 + decent but clear low migration nationalists + NATO and sound defence and they were in with a real shout of keeping their lead.

    If they do (I suppose they might) then we are in trouble.
    Do you really think this is an issue that will do them great damage. Will people care greatly when their own lives are poor, or at least not getting better ?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,872
    Unfortunately, the Liberal Democrats have no penis, and oppose both decent spending on defence and the nuclear deterrent, so their limp-wristed interventions will be heard by no-one except their Focus leaflet authors.

    Shame.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    British appreciation for the underdog is a deep cultural touchstone.

    I think it’s one thing, for example, that divides British culture from American.
    But it's weird. We were the bullies, the colonisers, the oppressors, and now all of a sudden we love the plucky underdog. Guilt, perhaps.
    Pinpointing the moment things tipped more towards underdogs would be an interesting one. Despite occasional rhetoric about the values of the UK (or any other place) they are obviously not timeless and can shift dramatically - going from slaving to free slaves being one example - but it would be interesting if there was still an 'underdog' appreciation even when our actions were a long way from it.

    In modern times it might be as simple as we think of ourselves as underdogs, the small nation which punched well above its weight in international matters for good and ill, so see ourselves in any underdog situation. Even though the UK has been pretty powerful for a long time, compared to many other places.
    Yes. There was immense public sympathy for Spain and Portugal, in 1808-14.

    Crucially, Irish Catholics were for once entirely on the same side as English Protestants. Irish Catholics made up 25% of the army.
    Anyone who has read Sharpe knows that all the best soliders in the army were Irish, Welsh, or Scottish.

    Christ, notwithstanding Sharpe himself being English I think even the French opponents get fewer villainous mooments than post English officers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,631
    edited February 21
    Carnyx said:

    Quotes getting messed up. But re bans, HYUFD isn;t protesting against mouflon meat or zebra meat not being available, sorry I meant, banned, in his local Tesco. Look here.

    https://www.keziefoods.co.uk/

    We have a significant pork production industry in the UK, zebra or mouflon meat is almost entirely imported, neither are native British animals like pigs
  • WTF have the government done with Apple. God knows all of the consequences, I doubt they have given them a second thought.

    Probably not but as Starmer will remind Kemi when she raises it at PMQs, the Online Safety Act 2023 was a creation of the Conservative government.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,835
    kamski said:



    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    think youve misunderstood

    here is the poll

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/02/20/trump-policies-opposed-by-americans/

    "The Post-Ipsos poll tested about a dozen different Trump policies and efforts, ranging from mass-deportation to banning transgender people from the military to shuttering the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) to pardoning Jan. 6 defendants. All but two were unpopular, by an average of 25 points."
    and
    "About the only Trump proposals tested on which Americans lean in support are 10 percent tariffs on China (50-45) and mass-deportation (51-45).
    But even that last one comes with a major caveat: Americans strongly oppose deporting undocumented immigrants who aren’t criminals (57-39), who arrived as children (70-26) and who have U.S. citizen children (66-30).
    That accounts for a huge number of would-be deportees, and it suggests that a true mass-deportation operation could be politically problematic."
  • I see Guido has a copy of a 2015 election leaflet from Jonathan Reynolds that states ...'Before that I was a solicitor in Manchester'. It's now the fifth time he has claimed to be a solicitor.

    I think that this has now done for him and he will be gone very shortly. Possibly as an MP too.

    I didn't really see him as a fantasist. Had him as one of the more boring, workmanlike members of the cabinet.

    Becoming a bit of thing now for Labour ministers - Haigh, Siddiq, Gwynne, Reynolds, Reeves.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    Unfortunately, the Liberal Democrats have no penis, and oppose both decent spending on defence and the nuclear deterrent, so their limp-wristed interventions will be heard by no-one except their Focus leaflet authors.

    Shame.

    Has their policy on defence spending changed in the last week or so? As prior to that at least they had the exact same policy as Labour on the % and timescale at least.
  • kamski said:



    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    US Public polling - Trump's actions.


    That should make Democrats despair
    I don't see why, only one of Trump's policies with 50%+ support is deporting illegal immigrants.

    Hardly surprising most Republican voters will back all of Trump's policies
    The grey bar represents US voters and the Democrats fall below on each bar
    think youve misunderstood

    here is the poll

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/02/20/trump-policies-opposed-by-americans/

    "The Post-Ipsos poll tested about a dozen different Trump policies and efforts, ranging from mass-deportation to banning transgender people from the military to shuttering the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) to pardoning Jan. 6 defendants. All but two were unpopular, by an average of 25 points."
    Thank you and maybe my knowledge of US politics is not as much as many of you on here
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    I see Guido has a copy of a 2015 election leaflet from Jonathan Reynolds that states ...'Before that I was a solicitor in Manchester'. It's now the fifth time he has claimed to be a solicitor.

    I think that this has now done for him and he will be gone very shortly. Possibly as an MP too.

    I didn't really see him as a fantasist. Had him as one of the more boring, workmanlike members of the cabinet.

    Becoming a bit of thing now for Labour ministers - Haigh, Siddiq, Gwynne, Reynolds, Reeves.

    It all seems a bit silly, but politicians have been brought down by even pettier things than CV inflation.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    I think there's a lot to be said for TSE's analysis here. There is simply mo doubt that over the last few years British public opinion has swung strongly behind Ukraine. Whatever the reasons (plucky underdog, dislike of Russian aggression, or whatever) voters from all political parties and none have been raising money, sheltering refugees and generally supporting Ukraine. it's going to take a lot of reverse-ferretting to persuade churchgoers, charities, blokes in pubs etc that Zelensky is now the bad guy. Add in to this a general distaste (at best) for Trump, Trumpism, Musk-etry and general US belligerence, then it looks like Ed Davey & Co could be in exactly the same position as the vast majority of British voters.

    I for one would have no hesitation in lending my protest vote to a party that is openly and transparently pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump and pro-Europe. I expect that many Conservatives and Labour voters would feel the same way, as neither Starmer nor Badenoch can say what the majority of their members would like them to say. And as for Farage, he's going to have to be very nimble on his feet to avoid being tarred by Trump's rapidly evolving but still bizarre foreign policy.

    Agree. Countries don't have to be perfect for us in the UK to object to an invader bully creating refugees, widows and orphans in a country on our continent. Apart from anything else, the simple question: Who Next? applies.

    Also, Farage's slippery comments, SFAICS, focussed on the narrow issues of: Is the Ukraine leader a dictator, and what about elections soon. The key Trumpian issue of 'Ukraine started it' was carefully evaded.
    I love the fact that having subjugated over 20% of the planet, created colonies, and imposed governments on indigenous peoples around the world we now love an underdog.
    Well, we got to know so many of them, plucky little devils.
    If you don’t show a touch of magnanimity to the defeated, your empire looks like Shark Island.

    Which is wasteful, and a bit “not done” socially.
    I do think the British outrage at Trump’s behaviour is being supercharged by the “not done” way he and his people are going about it. They are uncouth, impolite and lacking any diplomatic manners.

    In this case of course there is bad stuff happening in substance as well as bad rhetoric, but the total lack of manners really rubs it in. The Russians have been equally childishly rude for years. Conversely it’s why China (usually) gets away with doing bad stuff - they remain polite 90% of the time, save for the occasional shouty tantrum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    edited February 21
    biggles said:


    Hang on, isn’t the answer here that our Empire in full pomp was the blip? We were always small and nimble in Europe vs. the likes of France and Spain, and there is a lot to the “accidental empire” idea post civil war. Even at the height of empire we harkened back to Boudicca “regions Caesar never knew, thy posterity will conquer”.

    We accidentally stumbled into a global empire and feel a bit self conscious about it?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,607
    As soon as Zelenskyy signs the minerals deal Trump will say he’s marvellous.

    In an ideal world Zelenskyy would tell Trump to go fxck himself but I expect he has no choice but to sign a deal .
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