I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
You are missing my point. I'll try one more time.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
Who is “we” in this context? I don’t think we spend a lot of time talking about Spanish immigration policy because that’s a matter for Spain and the Spanish people.
If Spain and the Spanish people believe that immigration of foreign (mainly) retirees to the Costas is having a negative impact then surely they are within their right to restrict it. Historically they haven’t, probably because as they see it in general terms the influx of generally cash-rich individuals has been beneficial for the local economies.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to retire to the sun if the option is open to them, just as I don’t blame anyone from wanting to come to the UK for what they see as a better life etc. In the same breath, I think governments and electorates have every right to restrict that movement if they feel it necessary to do so.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
I know many Muslims and not one of them is a paedophile or a rapist. What exactly is your point?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
If Labour prove to be a lacklustre as the Tories were, I forsee two beneficiaries; Reform and DNV, and probably also the SNP and Plaid.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
I know many Muslims and not one of them is a paedophile or a rapist. What exactly is your point?
Somewhere in Spain there is a young professional defending the honour of Brits because their friends aren't anything like the people who get drunk on the costa del sol.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
I know many Muslims and not one of them is a paedophile or a rapist. What exactly is your point?
Somewhere in Spain there is a young professional defending the honour of Brits because their friends aren't anything like the people who get drunk on the costa del sol.
The point is that I can see hypocrisy, you don't seem to be interested.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
Doesn’t need to be a 'Musk rebuttal unit' but they should get better at the immediate rough and tumble of political debate. One of the things Truss said about getting into No. 10 is that you think getting into power is like the West Wing, but actually the flat has fleas, you don't know how to get a Sainsbury's delivery so you have no food etc. The same applies to communications.
I'd be interested if Phillips has a legal case against Musk. Is saying someone should be in gaol actionable? Perhaps it implies criminality.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
Yes, the state of Britain is driving people to Reform. Not online chitchat
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
Maybe but for those on the left (and for Stanley Baldwin as JohnO reminded us) attacks from the press are an occupational hazard. They come with the territory. Tony Blair bought a temporary respite from the Murdoch press by flying round the world to act as supplicant. There is the story of a Conservative minister on the Remain side comparing the press onslaught to what Labour must experience at every election. I do not recall anyone suing the Sun, Mail or Telegraph.
So no, historical precedent says don't sue, it's nothing new. Not to mention the diplomatic complications of taking on the Trump administration.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
But “insert politician here is crap” and “Elon Musk is fabulous” and “Nigel for PM” makes this site less and less interesting. I can go to Twitter and get the same analysis.
I still like to post here as I do value hearing from those who oppose me but I have to concede, it’s way less good than it was.
The US has a three strikes rule. If PB had a rule that, say, anyone banned 6 times should be permanently banned, we’d have a much nicer environment.
I would be close to being gone but I would accept that if the site improved for others.
It wouldn’t. The “sin bin” approach is far more effective
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
They'll give Musk the attention he craves and then lose.
Philips is a hypocrite and it will come out badly for her.
Were they smart, they’d be working furiously to get Musk onside and use it as an excuse to dispense of the dead wood like Jess P. Get a British Tesla factory up and running by 2028, pumping out grid scale battery storage, more efficient/cost efficient heat pumps for the uk market, and a capacity for several million robotaxis a year.
It’s quite something that the self proclaimed most pro net zero govt in the developed world is making a mortal enemy out of the worlds most significant net zero industrialist.
I think this is Streeting’s instinct. Perhaps it’s too late for Starmer because the personal attacks have cut too deep (truth hurts - “2TK”). Labour don’t need to get to the point where Musk and Co explicitly back them, just to the point where his actions are a positive signal to their programme, and where he stops promoting what are becoming their key political rival (Farage/Reform).
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
Of course it happens among other religions and among the non-religious community too. But these events are not happening on an industrial scale and where known the rapists are being pursued.
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
Of course it happens among other religions and among the non-religious community too. But these events are not happening on an industrial scale and where known the rapists are being pursued.
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
Yes, Alistair was one of our more fun posters, unfortunate he left.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
I used to merrily forward his thread headers to all and sundry, I thought he wrote brilliantly and incisively. And then he became very bitter indeed after 2016, quite vitriolic in fact, peaking in the May period. Hope he’s realised by now it really was all a storm in a teacup and cracked on with life.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
Of course it happens among other religions and among the non-religious community too. But these events are not happening on an industrial scale and where known the rapists are being pursued.
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
Erhhhhhhh
Perhaps you should read up on the numbers involved.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
Of course it happens among other religions and among the non-religious community too. But these events are not happening on an industrial scale and where known the rapists are being pursued.
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
Erhhhhhhh
Perhaps you should read up on the numbers involved.
I really think you should read up if you don't think there was abuse going on, on an industrial scale, in any other religion.
LBC @LBC · 55m ‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
Doesn’t need to be a 'Musk rebuttal unit' but they should get better at the immediate rough and tumble of political debate. One of the things Truss said about getting into No. 10 is that you think getting into power is like the West Wing, but actually the flat has fleas, you don't know how to get a Sainsbury's delivery so you have no food etc. The same applies to communications.
I'd be interested if Phillips has a legal case against Musk. Is saying someone should be in gaol actionable? Perhaps it implies criminality.
The flat had fleas because Boris had a dog, perhaps? One oddity of the British system is the same day in-and-out transfer of Prime Ministers (and Chancellors next door) with no break for a deep clean. And food deliveries arranged and paid for by Lady Bamford.
Boris "spaffed money up the wall on child abuse" Johnson of course, did great work during his Premiership on child grooming gangs. But oddly Elon Musk never brought this up, why not?
NICOLA Sturgeon is not likely to face any charges under the Police Scotland probe into SNP finances, a top Scottish KC has said.
Thomas Leonard Ross, a criminal defence lawyer and former president of the Scottish Bar Association, also said he did not expect to see any charges brought against Colin Beattie, the former treasurer of the SNP.
Both Beattie and Sturgeon were arrested, questioned, and released without charge in 2023 as part of the ongoing Operation Branchform, which has seen police investigate what happened to some £600,000 raised by the SNP to fight a second independence campaign.
huge cover up and just ignore every piece of evidence etc , criminal to say the least , no pun intended. 3 years and nothing to show or explanation where all the money went , keystone cops could have done better. Typical establishment as we see regularly.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
I used to merrily forward his thread headers to all and sundry, I thought he wrote brilliantly and incisively. And then he became very bitter indeed after 2016, quite vitriolic in fact, peaking in the May period. Hope he’s realised by now it really was all a storm in a teacup and cracked on with life.
I’ve seen some of his online essays and it seems he’s reverted to old style Meeks and realised that Brexit - albeit regrettable, in his view - has not ended the world. Indeed it’s smol beenz compared to what has come since, and what is yet to come
Speaking of which: new year, new projects, lots of stuff to do. Later xx
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
And you don't think that's happened in any other religion?
Of course it happens among other religions and among the non-religious community too. But these events are not happening on an industrial scale and where known the rapists are being pursued.
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
Erhhhhhhh
Perhaps you should read up on the numbers involved.
I really think you should read up if you don't think there was abuse going on, on an industrial scale, in any other religion.
Judge Peter Rook’s 2013 sentencing of Mohammed Karrar in Oxford.
Mohammed prepared his victim “for gang anal rape by using a pump... You subjected her to a gang rape by five or six men. At one point she had four men inside her. A red ball was placed in her mouth to keep her quiet.”
Im afraid your attempt to spread blame just a poor effort to avoid facing the problem head on.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
There will be many Muslims who have been attending mosque for decades and who would never have come across it.
Of course but it does go on and the known perpetrators are being let off . Their religion and the sensitivities around it are no excuse for not applying the law.
Indeed. And the same goes for any religion. Including Christian churches. And businesses. And charities. etc, etc.
This forum became very heated last night and I do wonder just where all of this is going
The problem as I see it is Starmer is increasingly unpopular, as is his government, but the conservative party is moribund, the Lib Dems anonymous, and in this vacuum steps Farage, Reform, Musk and Trump
Starmer is yet again to make another resetting speech on Monday, but I expect anything he says will be drowned out by the media who seem obsessed by Musk and Trump who aren't even in office yet
It has been said they intend intervening in the trial of the Southport attacker, as they cannot be prevented in commentating on it
This does raise profound implications and as much as I am opposed to Starmer and Labour, it makes one very uneasy as to where this is all going
Some on here critise Kemi Badenoch, but the real danger to our politics is not from her but Farage and the far right
It seems at his Leicester conference last night that when he rejected Robinson joining, he was heckled by some present
Labour supporters are experiencing a similar period to the anti Johnson post partygate time, and frankly I do not see it getting any easier for them whilst Starmer and Reeves are in charge
I agree that last night was very unpleasant here.
Part of the problem is the sloganising.
"Starmer is useless" with no supporting argument "Musk is a xxxx" with no added insights or predictions or context. It's just venting and is of zero value. You can get it on X all the time if that's what you want.
The bigger problem, and it's putting me off the site, is the personal invective. "You are a moron" repeatedly with no humour, simply to shout a contributor down.
I'm going to start flagging posts of this nature, and if you care about the site, I suggest you do the same.
The problem is, using the flag button now just results in abuse. I do think it would make more sense if we could see who has flagged a post and for what reason.
wimp off , I would not need a flag to tell someone they are a twat.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
Yes, he's much missed. As well as a lot of good, incisive commentary (even the stuff I didn't agree with) he could be very kind; when I was struggling to find a decent job a few years ago I came on here to rant about another failed interview and he was especially supportive.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
Presidential security officials snub police request for questioning
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=389695 The top two officials of the Presidential Security Service (PSS) snubbed a police request to appear for questioning Saturday, a day after foiling the state anti-corruption agency's attempt to arrest impeached President Yoon Suk Yeol.
In a message to media, the PSS said neither its Chief Park Chong-jun nor Deputy Kim Seong-hoon could leave their positions "even for a moment," citing the gravity of the situation in providing security for Yoon.
The PSS added they were in talks with police to reschedule the questioning session.
On Friday, the Corruption Investigation Office for High-ranking Officials (CIO) sought to execute its warrant to arrest Yoon over his failed martial law bid from December. However, the CIO halted its attempt after a standoff with PSS officials and soldiers for some six hours, saying some 200 people had formed a human wall that blocked entry to the presidential residence...
Looks like their police are as big a bunch of wimps as our lot. French would have had the CRS in there and cleared them out toute suite.
This forum became very heated last night and I do wonder just where all of this is going
The problem as I see it is Starmer is increasingly unpopular, as is his government, but the conservative party is moribund, the Lib Dems anonymous, and in this vacuum steps Farage, Reform, Musk and Trump
Starmer is yet again to make another resetting speech on Monday, but I expect anything he says will be drowned out by the media who seem obsessed by Musk and Trump who aren't even in office yet
It has been said they intend intervening in the trial of the Southport attacker, as they cannot be prevented in commentating on it
This does raise profound implications and as much as I am opposed to Starmer and Labour, it makes one very uneasy as to where this is all going
Some on here critise Kemi Badenoch, but the real danger to our politics is not from her but Farage and the far right
It seems at his Leicester conference last night that when he rejected Robinson joining, he was heckled by some present
Labour supporters are experiencing a similar period to the anti Johnson post partygate time, and frankly I do not see it getting any easier for them whilst Starmer and Reeves are in charge
I agree that last night was very unpleasant here.
Part of the problem is the sloganising.
"Starmer is useless" with no supporting argument "Musk is a xxxx" with no added insights or predictions or context. It's just venting and is of zero value. You can get it on X all the time if that's what you want.
The bigger problem, and it's putting me off the site, is the personal invective. "You are a moron" repeatedly with no humour, simply to shout a contributor down.
I'm going to start flagging posts of this nature, and if you care about the site, I suggest you do the same.
The problem is, using the flag button now just results in abuse. I do think it would make more sense if we could see who has flagged a post and for what reason.
If you don't know who used the flag button how can they get abuse!
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
I’m not sure how a Musk rebuttal unit helps. Nor do I think it’s helpful for the gov to threaten legal action on behalf of Jess Phillips - there’s probably reams of stuff people would like attention on. I recall some rather odd comment during the summer riots…
This forum became very heated last night and I do wonder just where all of this is going
The problem as I see it is Starmer is increasingly unpopular, as is his government, but the conservative party is moribund, the Lib Dems anonymous, and in this vacuum steps Farage, Reform, Musk and Trump
Starmer is yet again to make another resetting speech on Monday, but I expect anything he says will be drowned out by the media who seem obsessed by Musk and Trump who aren't even in office yet
It has been said they intend intervening in the trial of the Southport attacker, as they cannot be prevented in commentating on it
This does raise profound implications and as much as I am opposed to Starmer and Labour, it makes one very uneasy as to where this is all going
Some on here critise Kemi Badenoch, but the real danger to our politics is not from her but Farage and the far right
It seems at his Leicester conference last night that when he rejected Robinson joining, he was heckled by some present
Labour supporters are experiencing a similar period to the anti Johnson post partygate time, and frankly I do not see it getting any easier for them whilst Starmer and Reeves are in charge
I agree that last night was very unpleasant here.
Part of the problem is the sloganising.
"Starmer is useless" with no supporting argument "Musk is a xxxx" with no added insights or predictions or context. It's just venting and is of zero value. You can get it on X all the time if that's what you want.
The bigger problem, and it's putting me off the site, is the personal invective. "You are a moron" repeatedly with no humour, simply to shout a contributor down.
I'm going to start flagging posts of this nature, and if you care about the site, I suggest you do the same.
The problem is, using the flag button now just results in abuse. I do think it would make more sense if we could see who has flagged a post and for what reason.
If you don't know who used the flag button how can they get abuse!
People assume who has used it, and often get it wrong.
I think I last used it when someone posted my son's school on here, and I wanted it removed. For that sort of thing, I think it's valuable.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
I was partly to blame for that.
He reached out with a generous private message after the vote, and I lashed out. He didn't talk to me after that.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
That's just the weather.
Edit: Personally in the centre of the small town where I live, the latest change has been a bookies closing to be replaced by a Card Factory, which is a plus in my eyes.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
But you do see it in the Christian church. A lot.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Ive been in the Anglican church 60+ years and never come across it once. Though clearly it does happen hence Welby's problems. I have come across it among teachers with questionable behaviour.
I know many Muslims and not one of them is a paedophile or a rapist. What exactly is your point?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
In the case of tim, I'd say he was rightly driven from this site. He was just so relentless nasty and personal.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
You need to compartmentalise, which is what we do with all the other disreputable autocrats. Yes we're happy to do business with you, but stay out of how we run our country.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
In the case of tim, I'd say he was rightly driven from this site. He was just so relentless nasty and personal.
So not much different from Leon's various incarnations, then?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Good honest debate, which the woke twats on here would want to change into a mumsnet site. Too many wimpy twats about now that cannot take any criticism and are always offended.
I just don’t know where we draw the line on free speech.
Elon Musk calling Jess Phillips a rape gang supporter is surely beyond the pale.
Would he have been able to have that amplified or made that note if he didn’t own Twitter? It’s very worrying that people can just buy the ability to shout the loudest now.
You are muddling up things.
I haven’t seen what Musk called Phillips but it sounds unpleasant. But free speech is absolutely the right to be unpleasant.
Phillips has the right to rely on the protections of the courts if she has been libelled - it’s not my area of technical expertise but very happy to accept that needs reform to protect against billionaires using money as a shield.
Social media is corrosive and needs regulation. But, again, that’s different to restricting free speech - and I think unhelpful to conflate the two (that’s what the defenders of the status quo do)
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
In the case of tim, I'd say he was rightly driven from this site. He was just so relentless nasty and personal.
I actually still have a bet outstanding with Tim, from about 2012/13? I said the LDs would hold East Dunbartonshire in 2015, he said that Labour would win it. In the end, the SNP won, so I guess it is null and void.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
You are missing my point. I'll try one more time.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
Who is “we” in this context? I don’t think we spend a lot of time talking about Spanish immigration policy because that’s a matter for Spain and the Spanish people.
If Spain and the Spanish people believe that immigration of foreign (mainly) retirees to the Costas is having a negative impact then surely they are within their right to restrict it. Historically they haven’t, probably because as they see it in general terms the influx of generally cash-rich individuals has been beneficial for the local economies.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to retire to the sun if the option is open to them, just as I don’t blame anyone from wanting to come to the UK for what they see as a better life etc. In the same breath, I think governments and electorates have every right to restrict that movement if they feel it necessary to do so.
Exactly they are getting self financing people, they have rules that you need to have € xx per year to stay , unlike the UK that gets boatloads of spongers who drain the economy and have us circling the drain, with incompetent idiots unable to put some basic rules in place. Massive difference.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
Get a grip , if they are that fragile they should not be on social media.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
You need to compartmentalise, which is what we do with all the other disreputable autocrats. Yes we're happy to do business with you, but stay out of how we run our country.
Except for press barons? For those on the left, being attacked in the press is an occupational hazard. Today's Mail splashes Starmer's guilt over grooming gangs. Musk is another Lord Rothermere or Rupert Murdoch in this regard.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
That's just the weather.
Edit: Personally in the centre of the small town where I live, the latest change has been a bookies closing to be replaced by a Card Factory, which is a plus in my eyes.
Yes in Lewisham shopping centre they closed Claire's Accessories and opened a rather fabulous Waterstones. Maybe things are slowly improving?
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
There are rapists among all ethnicities and nationalities.
Of course
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
Okay, so what would you like to happen?
The law should be applied and the rapists locked up.
One weakness of this present scandal is that the law has indeed been applied and hundreds (thousands?) of people have been arrested, charged and convicted.
That's too late for those thousands of victims, of course, but the CPS under Starmer did carry out prosecutions and changed their methodology to make prosecuting historical cases easier, and the Conservatives subsequently set up a taskforce consisting of hundreds of police officers, arresting hundreds of suspects.
Eg Huddersfield - 29 suspects charged in 2017. Rotherham first convictions in 2010, 15 years ago. The Jay report in 2014. Rochdale 9 people convicted in 2012.
I don't want to downplay the fact that it was covered up in some cases for decades, but the idea that nothing has been done about it is plainly wrong. It's quite distinct to something like Post Office scandal.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
The common sense faction is very online.
Real life is probably much more radicalising than being online. There are lots of people who barely ever venture into their local town centres and every time they do, they come home feeling a little more despondent about the direction of the country.
That's just the weather.
Edit: Personally in the centre of the small town where I live, the latest change has been a bookies closing to be replaced by a Card Factory, which is a plus in my eyes.
Yes in Lewisham shopping centre they closed Claire's Accessories and opened a rather fabulous Waterstones. Maybe things are slowly improving?
There was something about this on TRiEntertainment recently. Amazon's Kindle was supposed to kill off books but hasn't. Kindle plateaued and books are back.
I just don’t know where we draw the line on free speech.
Elon Musk calling Jess Phillips a rape gang supporter is surely beyond the pale.
Would he have been able to have that amplified or made that note if he didn’t own Twitter? It’s very worrying that people can just buy the ability to shout the loudest now.
You are muddling up things.
I haven’t seen what Musk called Phillips but it sounds unpleasant. But free speech is absolutely the right to be unpleasant.
Phillips has the right to rely on the protections of the courts if she has been libelled - it’s not my area of technical expertise but very happy to accept that needs reform to protect against billionaires using money as a shield.
Social media is corrosive and needs regulation. But, again, that’s different to restricting free speech - and I think unhelpful to conflate the two (that’s what the defenders of the status quo do)
Elon Musk said “Jess Phillips is a rape genocide apologist”, in the context of her refusing to order a public enquiry.
IMHO she’d struggle to prove a defamation there, given the long list of replies of her Tweets and interviews from over the years on the subject. The G-word is more problematic than the R-word, although Musk’s lawyer would argue that the two words together make one phrase.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My youtube homepage increasingly seems to have borderline nutter videos 'for you'. All I watch on YT are cookery videos, programming and the weather forecast. I very deliberately don't watch anything political on there to avoid it turning into a cesspit. And no matter how many times I've clicked "not interested" or "don't recommend this channel" - up pops another weird prepper or 'why net zero is A CON!!11!' thing.
I never get anything like that even moderately 'left wing'.
I asked a friend who works in digital marketing and he thought it might be to do with the cookery shows. Watched some "how to make your own pickles" videos? Maybe you're a homesteader? Which means maybe you're a prepper... which maybe means you live in an armed compound... which ....
I had to stop following a UK 'air fryer recipe' channel as the woman who ran it started going off to nutter-ville about this animal feed that's made out of seaweed (to stop cows farting so much). Proper rabbithole of 'proof!' (being a screenshot of a FB post), vague shadowy mentions of "Bill Gates is an investor!", and also apparently this animal feed has instructions on it saying "Not for human consumption!". Imagine!
Rumin8 is a great company that has a partnership with the Gates Foundation.
Sadly enough half truths to allow the malicious to manipulate the unwary
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
You need to compartmentalise, which is what we do with all the other disreputable autocrats. Yes we're happy to do business with you, but stay out of how we run our country.
Except for press barons? For those on the left, being attacked in the press is an occupational hazard. Today's Mail splashes Starmer's guilt over grooming gangs. Musk is another Lord Rothermere or Rupert Murdoch in this regard.
I don't think it's equivalent. The argument is that we cannot afford to fall out with the government of our main ally with Musk as a member of that government. Hence we need to suck it up when the same ally tries to undermine our legitimate government.
It may depend on whether Trump is an aberration or if situation normal will reassert itself after him. If it doesn't I would question the value of the supposed special relationship.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
Have you considered that you might do the same. Or for that matter any one of us.
Words on a board are different to a conversation in person. None of us knows what’s going on in other peoples lives.
Some fuckwit even claimed I led an unhappy life because I criticised SKS !
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
We haven't had "that" inquiry. We've had loads of separate and regional ones done under the cover of darkness with the establishment trying their best not to "draw conclusions" they didn't like from them. We need a national inquiry with all of the victims invited, all of the whistle blowers invited and all of those journalists who investigated this invited to give public and unredacted evidence live on TV.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
OK fine.
If we haven't had *that* enquiry then why didn't the Tories hold one? If the Phillips letter is bad then why is the Solloway letter good? If its practically criminal for Labour to not have acted in 6 months then why is is ok that the Tories didn't act for 14 years?
You mention the establishment cover up. That is the issue. So why are you and the desperate parts of the right trying to make this party political? You just look daft, and it does nothing to resolve the issue. We need grown up politics - not enough has been done, for a long time, by all governments. So now we reach across the Commons to Get This Done.
Your defence is basically the Tories were shit too.
Well, I hope Dr. Foxy changes his mind, and that things calm down here. (I have tried in my own small way to help that, for example by not taking advantage of the many straight lines posted by a few of the miscreants.)
It would be interesting to see, for example, his comments on RFK, Jr.'s income: "Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the political scion and prominent vaccine skeptic who is challenging President Biden for the Democratic presidential nomination, reported an income of $7.8 million in the year leading up to his entry into the race, including nearly $1.6 million from his consulting work for a personal injury law firm known for litigation against pharmaceutical companies.
The details came in a financial disclosure form filed Friday with the Federal Election Commission. It shows that Mr. Kennedy earned $5 million at his environmental law firm, Kennedy & Madonna, and a $516,000 salary and bonus as chairman and chief legal counsel of Children’s Health Defense, a nonprofit group he formed that has campaigned against vaccines. (The disclosure says he has been on leave from the organization since April, when he announced his campaign.)" source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/30/us/politics/robert-f-kennedy-jr-money.html
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
You are missing my point. I'll try one more time.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
Who is “we” in this context? I don’t think we spend a lot of time talking about Spanish immigration policy because that’s a matter for Spain and the Spanish people.
If Spain and the Spanish people believe that immigration of foreign (mainly) retirees to the Costas is having a negative impact then surely they are within their right to restrict it. Historically they haven’t, probably because as they see it in general terms the influx of generally cash-rich individuals has been beneficial for the local economies.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to retire to the sun if the option is open to them, just as I don’t blame anyone from wanting to come to the UK for what they see as a better life etc. In the same breath, I think governments and electorates have every right to restrict that movement if they feel it necessary to do so.
Exactly they are getting self financing people, they have rules that you need to have € xx per year to stay , unlike the UK that gets boatloads of spongers who drain the economy and have us circling the drain, with incompetent idiots unable to put some basic rules in place. Massive difference.
There are two basic issues. One is state support and the other cultural assimilation.
Immigrants who are not citizens should not be entitled to any state support at all, and incomers, with special reference to family immigration, need to be able to pass a citizenship test.
The ‘system’ needs to be aware of cultural differences in for example treatment of women and homosexuals, and make sure that incomers are aware of British values and laws in these areas, including how to approach authorities.
We started the BBC version of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy after lunch today during the kids naptime, it's absolutely excellent, thanks for the recommendation all!
Comments
Venison burgers, no. Venison chorizo, no. Venison sausages, absolutely not.
But a venison stew? Now you're talking.
I think that, if, for some unlikely reason I was limited to only one meat dish for the rest of my life then it would be venison stew.
This also leaves a big question looming: do we not see it to the same degree in those communities because it does not happen to the same degree, or because the same sort of shite is still going on?
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
https://youtu.be/Z_wgOHuY-vM
LBC
@LBC
·
55m
‘I’d set up a Musk rebuttal unit in Number 10.’
Former Political Secretary to Tony Blair, @johnmcternan, tells @mattfrei
the government should back Jess Phillips in taking legal action after the ‘slanderous accusations’ made against her.
https://x.com/LBC/status/1875512220907413852
If Spain and the Spanish people believe that immigration of foreign (mainly) retirees to the Costas is having a negative impact then surely they are within their right to restrict it. Historically they haven’t, probably because as they see it in general terms the influx of generally cash-rich individuals has been beneficial for the local economies.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to retire to the sun if the option is open to them, just as I don’t blame anyone from wanting to come to the UK for what they see as a better life etc. In the same breath, I think governments and electorates have every right to restrict that movement if they feel it necessary to do so.
They'll give Musk the attention he craves and then lose.
Philips is a hypocrite and it will come out badly for her.
The same applies to Trump and Musk in my view.
I'd be interested if Phillips has a legal case against Musk. Is saying someone should be in gaol actionable? Perhaps it implies criminality.
1. Lab 32, Con 32, LD 20, Ref 33
2. Lab 18, Con 20, LD 9, Ref 15
3. MPs 5
4. Defectors 2
5. By-elections 5
6. Ministers 4
7. AfD 120
8. CPI 2.2
9. Borrowing GDP 133bn
10. UK growth 1.2%
11. US growth 0.3%
12. EU growth 0.3%
13. USD/rouble 115
14. Ashes Aus 3-1
1 Lab 29, Con27, LD 15, Reform 25
2 Lab 22 Con 21, LD 10, Reform 19
3 9
4 2
5 4
6 7
7138
8 2.8%
9 £127.1bn
10 0.7%
11 2.7%
12 0.8%
13 136
14 Aus 3 England 2
So no, historical precedent says don't sue, it's nothing new. Not to mention the diplomatic complications of taking on the Trump administration.
They lose two? Maybe from having whip withdrawn?
It’s quite something that the self proclaimed most pro net zero govt in the developed world is making a mortal enemy out of the worlds most significant net zero industrialist.
I think this is Streeting’s instinct. Perhaps it’s too late for Starmer because the personal attacks have cut too deep (truth hurts - “2TK”). Labour don’t need to get to the point where Musk and Co explicitly back them, just to the point where his actions are a positive signal to their programme, and where he stops promoting what are becoming their key political rival (Farage/Reform).
I find it unsettling that you wish to dissipate somewhere around 100,000 planned rapes caused by a perverted minority in the Pakistani community. Either we have laws or we dont.
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
Typical establishment as we see regularly.
Speaking of which: new year, new projects, lots of stuff to do. Later xx
Mohammed prepared his victim “for gang anal rape by using a pump... You subjected her to a gang rape by five or six men. At one point she had four men inside her. A red ball was placed in her mouth to keep her quiet.”
Im afraid your attempt to spread blame just a poor effort to avoid facing the problem head on.
It goes on.
I am a fat bastard.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
I think I last used it when someone posted my son's school on here, and I wanted it removed. For that sort of thing, I think it's valuable.
2. Lab 18, Con 20, LD 9, Ref 18
3. MPs 8
4. Defectors 2
5. By-elections 6
6. Ministers 3
7. AfD 144
8. CPI 2.8
9. Borrowing GDP 150bn
10. UK growth 1.4%
11. US growth 2.5%
12. EU growth 1.0%
13. USD/rouble 150
14. Ashes Aus 3-1
He reached out with a generous private message after the vote, and I lashed out. He didn't talk to me after that.
I still regret that daily.
Edit: Personally in the centre of the small town where I live, the latest change has been a bookies closing to be replaced by a Card Factory, which is a plus in my eyes.
1 Lab 32% / Con 35% / LD 16% / Reform 31%
2 Lab 25% / Con 24% / LD 9% / Reform 15%
3 6 Reform MPs
4 1 Tory defector to Reform
5 5 by-elections
6 4 ministers to leave Cabinet
7 110 AfD seats
8 UK CPI 2.2%
9 UK borrowing £120bn
10 UK GDP growth 0.9%
11 US growth 3.2%.
12 EU growth 0.9%
13 USD/Ruble 114
14 Ashes Draw 2-2
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him
to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
I haven’t seen what Musk called Phillips but it sounds unpleasant. But free speech is absolutely the right to be unpleasant.
Phillips has the right to rely on the protections of the courts if she has been libelled - it’s not my area of technical expertise but very happy to accept that needs reform to protect against billionaires using money as a shield.
Social media is corrosive and needs regulation. But, again, that’s different to restricting free speech - and I think unhelpful to conflate the two (that’s what the defenders of the status quo do)
I said the LDs would hold East Dunbartonshire in 2015, he said that Labour would win it. In the end, the SNP won, so I guess it is null and void.
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-647
That's too late for those thousands of victims, of course, but the CPS under Starmer did carry out prosecutions and changed their methodology to make prosecuting historical cases easier, and the Conservatives subsequently set up a taskforce consisting of hundreds of police officers, arresting hundreds of suspects.
Eg Huddersfield - 29 suspects charged in 2017. Rotherham first convictions in 2010, 15 years ago. The Jay report in 2014. Rochdale 9 people convicted in 2012.
I don't want to downplay the fact that it was covered up in some cases for decades, but the idea that nothing has been done about it is plainly wrong. It's quite distinct to something like Post Office scandal.
2 Lab 23%/Con 26%/LD 8%/Reform 18%
3 6 Reform MPs
4 0 Tory defector to Reform
5 2 by-elections
6 4 ministers to leave Cabinet
7 127 AfD seats
8 UK CPI 3.2%
9 UK borrowing £125 BN
10 UK GDP growth 1.3%
11 US growth 3.5%
12 EU growth 0.5%
13 USD/Ruble 125
14 Ashes 3-1 Aus
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1875145167633887358
IMHO she’d struggle to prove a defamation there, given the long list of replies of her Tweets and interviews from over the years on the subject. The G-word is more problematic than the R-word, although Musk’s lawyer would argue that the two words together make one phrase.
Sadly enough half truths to allow the malicious to manipulate the unwary
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
It may depend on whether Trump is an aberration or if situation normal will reassert itself after him. If it doesn't I would question the value of the supposed special relationship.
Words on a board are different to a conversation in person. None of us knows what’s going on in other peoples lives.
Some fuckwit even claimed I led an unhappy life because I criticised SKS !
I think we can take it as a given.
Why does that justify Labour inaction now?
It would be interesting to see, for example, his comments on RFK, Jr.'s income:
"Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the political scion and prominent vaccine skeptic who is challenging President Biden for the Democratic presidential nomination, reported an income of $7.8 million in the year leading up to his entry into the race, including nearly $1.6 million from his consulting work for a personal injury law firm known for litigation against pharmaceutical companies.
The details came in a financial disclosure form filed Friday with the Federal Election Commission. It shows that Mr. Kennedy earned $5 million at his environmental law firm, Kennedy & Madonna, and a $516,000 salary and bonus as chairman and chief legal counsel of Children’s Health Defense, a nonprofit group he formed that has campaigned against vaccines. (The disclosure says he has been on leave from the organization since April, when he announced his campaign.)"
source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/30/us/politics/robert-f-kennedy-jr-money.html
Immigrants who are not citizens should not be entitled to any state support at all, and incomers, with special reference to family immigration, need to be able to pass a citizenship test.
The ‘system’ needs to be aware of cultural differences in for example treatment of women and homosexuals, and make sure that incomers are aware of British values and laws in these areas, including how to approach authorities.