A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Outside of North London and university towns and cities and areas with large Muslim populations yes he is. Rural and provincial UK hate Starmer in a way they never hated Blair and Brown was more popular in Scotland than Starmer is
Have you got actual evidence for that? I'm not a Starmer fan; I think he got too far in politics too quickly, and it shows. But I can't see why he's 'hated'. For the record I don't 'hate' the likes of Bravermann; I fear her, yes, but I don't hate her.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Exactly. We have had an enquiry, why do we need another and what would it achieve anyway ?
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
I'm from Rochdale and I've lived and worked in Rotherham. I'm associated with this via my history, and I can look back over the way those towns worked at the time I was there to have a bit of understanding about the mood.
Both towns had real issues of social and racial division, of suspicion and segregation. I can get how this could go on under the radar - because the radar was crappy and had huge holes in the net. What I can't get is how the authorities were so dismissive. Police who actively disbelieved anything that poor girls said. Social workers who were paranoid about being seen as racist in a town screwed by racism.
The legal and law enforcement issue - traditionally the right - is just as key to this as the social work and councillors issue - traditionally the left. One side trying to blame exclusively the other is how we had this go on for so long. So I am less than amused with Tories denouncing Labour for Tory failings. It gets us nowhere.
A girls saying I’m being abused by one person is an awkward court case for the police to deal with.
A girl saying I’m being abused by multiple people is very difficult to deal with - it’s 1 (untrustworthy) person against multiple people some or all of whom are unknown to the police.
Hence I can see why it took a long time for it to be investigated and a long time for it to be dealt with.
And we then get to the final point that while it may look organized and like malice the reality is many of the people involved have limited time in a day and more pressing issues which would have an immediate effect
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
We haven't had "that" inquiry. We've had loads of separate and regional ones done under the cover of darkness with the establishment trying their best not to "draw conclusions" they didn't like from them. We need a national inquiry with all of the victims invited, all of the whistle blowers invited and all of those journalists who investigated this invited to give public and unredacted evidence live on TV.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
OK fine.
If we haven't had *that* enquiry then why didn't the Tories hold one? If the Phillips letter is bad then why is the Solloway letter good? If its practically criminal for Labour to not have acted in 6 months then why is is ok that the Tories didn't act for 14 years?
You mention the establishment cover up. That is the issue. So why are you and the desperate parts of the right trying to make this party political? You just look daft, and it does nothing to resolve the issue. We need grown up politics - not enough has been done, for a long time, by all governments. So now we reach across the Commons to Get This Done.
You're welcome to go back through my post history as I've been very consistent on this subject and as critical of the Tories who also contrived to cover this up. Even last night I said they denied this national public inquiry because they knew it would fling too much shit on them as well as Labour. They are part of the national guilt on this and though maybe not as much as Labour their role in denying justice to the victims will be seen as historically bad too.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
Trump to be sentenced in hush money case on Friday the day after Carter's state funeral. However he is expected to get an unconditional discharge or at most a fine
Even Stormy Daniels didn't allow Trump an entirely unconditional discharge.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I think you may be right. I'm very sorry to think.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
"Older" plus "very online" is an interesting combination, given that I think the very-online tends to skew young.
From the Politics Home stuff:
some 56 per cent of the party’s (ie Reform party) members thought government should cut taxes and spend less on public services,
This isn't very informative unless we know which services (NHS? Defence? Pensions? Schools being free? Bin emptying? Pot holes?) they want less spent on.
SFAICS Reform members will want less spent on things in general but more spent on each particular. Like a lot of people.
It's 94 years ago, but Stanley Baldwin already had the measure of Musk's ilks:
"The newspapers attacking me are not newspapers in the ordinary sense. They are engines of propaganda for the constantly changing policies, desires, personal vices, personal likes and dislikes of the two men. What are their methods? Their methods are direct false- hoods misrepresentation, half-truths, the alteration of the speaker’s meaning by publishing a sentence apart from the context…What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
We haven't had "that" inquiry. We've had loads of separate and regional ones done under the cover of darkness with the establishment trying their best not to "draw conclusions" they didn't like from them. We need a national inquiry with all of the victims invited, all of the whistle blowers invited and all of those journalists who investigated this invited to give public and unredacted evidence live on TV.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
OK fine.
If we haven't had *that* enquiry then why didn't the Tories hold one? If the Phillips letter is bad then why is the Solloway letter good? If its practically criminal for Labour to not have acted in 6 months then why is is ok that the Tories didn't act for 14 years?
You mention the establishment cover up. That is the issue. So why are you and the desperate parts of the right trying to make this party political? You just look daft, and it does nothing to resolve the issue. We need grown up politics - not enough has been done, for a long time, by all governments. So now we reach across the Commons to Get This Done.
You're welcome to go back through my post history as I've been very consistent on this subject and as critical of the Tories who also contrived to cover this up. Even last night I said they denied this national public inquiry because they knew it would fling too much shit on them as well as Labour. They are part of the national guilt on this and though maybe not as much as Labour their role in denying justice to the victims will be seen as historically bad too.
If Badenoch were much more politically skilled, she’d still be finding this an impossible job. After 14 years of the Tories continuing with much of new labours disastrous management, it’s hard to credibly land a blow on the new government. But the Labour well is so dry of capability, it’s leaving a vacuum. And politics like nature abhors a vacuum.
Interesting article on the WFA cut that I wanted to share.
My only question is, why are the elderly any more deserving of the payment than somebody with a long term health condition but who isn't over a certain age?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
I just don’t know where we draw the line on free speech.
Elon Musk calling Jess Phillips a rape gang supporter is surely beyond the pale.
Would he have been able to have that amplified or made that note if he didn’t own Twitter? It’s very worrying that people can just buy the ability to shout the loudest now.
Jess Phillips does have history in downplaying sexual assaults when 'community relations' are involved:
An MP has been criticised for downplaying the Cologne sex attacks by comparing them to harassment of women during a typical night out in Birmingham.
Hundreds of women in the German city were subjected to sexual assaults on New Year's Eve, 2015.
Jess Phillips, Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley, said it was akin to "heckling" on Birmingham's Broad Street.
Mrs Phillips made her comments on Thursday's BBC Question Time.
She was speaking during a debate about how many refugees should be allowed into Britain, in which an audience member suggested events in Cologne - said to have been carried out by migrants - proved mass immigration did not work.
She told the audience: "A very similar situation to what happened in Cologne could be describing Broad Street in Birmingham every week, where women are baited and heckled."
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I think I look across at the last 30 years in Europe and insurgent right parties have typically had a ceiling in the mid-high 20s and not been that transfer friendly.
In an FPTP system with votes fairly well spread out apart from a quite weak concentration of votes in the red wall (in very few places would Reform get to 50%) and at least some impetus for tactical voting against, I think it does limit Reform to 100ish seats tops.
Of course, the whole game could change with the next 4 years of assaultive propaganda from various superpowers, but that's not my default assumption.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I have no doubt you are right and the usual suspects who say Reform voters are being conned/stupid/voting against their own interests won’t be listened to as they have nothing worthwhile to offer as they just offer the more of the same that people already have and are fed up,with.
As you say, a total break in our current trajectory.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
Whether or not it was Robinson it was certainly the genesis of the now defunct EDL.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No, because you cannot look into someone's soul to see whether they're going to be a fine, upstanding immigrant who will work hard for this country, or the sort of lovely fellow who exposes himself to a stewardess and offers her a horse in exchange for an 'erotic' massage.
I'm sure you'd agree that sort of 'immigrant' is the sort no country should allow in...
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A problem I have is corporate Twitter. Often when one looks them up one doesn't get the latest news. Unless one is a paying subscriber?
That’s why I moved to Bluesky - I want a feed that is literally posts made by people I follow in chronological order
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
Difference is English is a universal language and many people in Spain already speak it. Especially in areas like Costa Del Sol.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
Difference is English is a universal language and many people in Spain already speak it. Especially in areas like Costa Del Sol.
I don't think language is the issue, unless you also think China Town is also a sea of "non-integrators".
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No. We have a clear and demonstrable issue: Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I think I look across at the last 30 years in Europe and insurgent right parties have typically had a ceiling in the mid-high 20s and not been that transfer friendly.
In an FPTP system with votes fairly well spread out apart from a quite weak concentration of votes in the red wall (in very few places would Reform get to 50%) and at least some impetus for tactical voting against, I think it does limit Reform to 100ish seats tops.
Of course, the whole game could change with the next 4 years of assaultive propaganda from various superpowers, but that's not my default assumption.
Let’s assume that’s right and reform top out at 28% at a general election. That’s 15pts taken more or less from Tories and Labour. I can’t see Labour polling much above 28% next time under this leadership certainly. So it causes a pretty chaotic outcome. And our system tends not to produce really chaotic outcomes. So in all likelihood, it means either: a) reform disintegrate and there’s a Tory revival, b) the Tories disintegrate and reform become largest party, c) Badenoch is out before the election and there’s a pact.
Place your bets. A) doesn’t feel likely to me unless He Who Shall Not Be Named returns. And he’d have a job winning again, given his immigration record.
It's about 5 countries in between. It may have worked 300 years ago, when it was the Ottoman Emplre, or in the late 19C early 20C when Italy wanted an Empire.
I need the next bit of audio, so I can hear her answer when asked if she mainlining a hallucinogen.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
Difference is English is a universal language and many people in Spain already speak it. Especially in areas like Costa Del Sol.
I don't think language is the issue, unless you also think China Town is also a sea of "non-integrators".
You said ‘speak no Spanish’ in your original post which is what I was responding to. The issue of not speaking Spanish on the Costa Del Sol where many of the locals speak English is not a major problem.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A problem I have is corporate Twitter. Often when one looks them up one doesn't get the latest news. Unless one is a paying subscriber?
That’s why I moved to Bluesky - I want a feed that is literally posts made by people I follow in chronological order
And twitter doesn’t offer that anymore.
I see; thank you. At the moment I'm trying to keep an eye on travel disruptions for Mrs C who is out today. But LNER just have random old posts on X. No Bluesky. TBF a lot of other companies are the same - occasionally posting only on X. Very annoying.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No. We have a clear and demonstrable issue: Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
To be clear, I was talking about events like people marching through the streets of British towns calling for the murder of British soldiers.
What is most interesting is that Boris Johnson was perhaps the most liberal PM we've had on immigration for a long while. It suggests to me that his instincts really weren't where he ended up governing from.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
All we talk about here, it often seems, is the electoral threat of Reform. The idea that the Conservatives and Labour aren’t equally concerned is ridiculous. The question is how do you respond to that threat?
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
Difference is English is a universal language and many people in Spain already speak it. Especially in areas like Costa Del Sol.
I don't think language is the issue, unless you also think China Town is also a sea of "non-integrators".
You said ‘speak no Spanish’ in your original post which is what I was responding to.
Don’t assume or decide what I think, either. Mug.
Don't call me a mug Taz, I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.
I don't think the fact English is a universal language makes non-integration or not speaking the language of the country any more justifiable, to be honest. It's why I always try and speak the language when I go abroad. It's just rude otherwise.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The reason is because they are not Spanish so they don't have to deal with the issues caused by problematic Brits abroad.
So are you supporting mass deportation in both cases?
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The reason is because they are not Spanish so they don't have to deal with the issues caused by problematic Brits abroad.
So are you supporting mass deportation in both cases?
No, the point I was making is that if what you care about is non-integration of people, I'd look at our own native people not integrating first. But we don't, because let's be honest, they're treated differently. Hence the title "expat".
"Older" plus "very online" is an interesting combination, given that I think the very-online tends to skew young.
That suggests Reform will lack the "ground game" in future elections.
Perhaps, but is that still as important as it once was?
You can see the lack of local focus and ground game also in their GE results, where their support is comparatively evenly spread across the country. Contrast the LDs who do have ground game and focus on specific target seats, which got them a lot more MPs and a voting pattern where some constituencies are LD enough to be won and in a lot of the rest they're nowhere, but not many in the gap in between. Reform have a much bigger set of constuencies where their vote share is in that no man's land where it's significant but still well under winnable. Will they adopt a more localised approach or stick to working at a national level, trusting that if they can get their vote share up then they'll get over a tipping point?
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The reason is because they are not Spanish so they don't have to deal with the issues caused by problematic Brits abroad.
So are you supporting mass deportation in both cases?
No, the point I was making is that if what you care about is non-integration of people, I'd look at our own native people not integrating first. But we don't, because let's be honest, they're treated differently. Hence the title "expat".
You think our primary concern should be for what our ethnic brethren get up to anywhere in the world?
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
My problem in defining sporting prowess is how to distinguish between a proper athlete in any sport that requires fitness and technical ability, an sport that requires a degree of mechanical intervention, a sport that requires a judge to Mark it and therefore open to interpretation and corruption, and finally games, like snooker and darts that require no athletic ability at all.
Littler is an overweight 17 year old who has basically done nothing but throw darts since he was 5. Radacanu has played tennis since a similar age but needs to be supremely fit, let's use Lando Norris in F1 who relies on his equipment, I can't think of a gymnast or skater who is young but let's say Beth Tweddle. In soccer we have probably the greatest talent this country has produced since Duncan Edwards in Jude Bellingham, or Harry Brook in cricket.
I have a bias towards sport of the athletic and technical slant so for me Bellingham is way ahead of Brook, notional Tweddle and then Norris... I think Littler is a great game player as was Phil Taylor... But SPOTY not for me.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The reason is because they are not Spanish so they don't have to deal with the issues caused by problematic Brits abroad.
So are you supporting mass deportation in both cases?
No, the point I was making is that if what you care about is non-integration of people, I'd look at our own native people not integrating first. But we don't, because let's be honest, they're treated differently. Hence the title "expat".
You think our primary concern should be for what our ethnic brethren get up to anywhere in the world?
I think it's hypocritical to say we have a problem with integration when we don't do it ourselves.
My actual view is that integration is not a specific issue with Muslims. It's an issue with some people and some immigrants.
The solution is making the immigration system work better for that. It's not stopping Muslims coming into the country.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A problem I have is corporate Twitter. Often when one looks them up one doesn't get the latest news. Unless one is a paying subscriber?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No. We have a clear and demonstrable issue: Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
Of course if you counter the number of young Muslim men in the UK and cases of rape against a maximum of 400 pissed up make MPs mostly of an advanced age, proportionally split between hetro and homosexual, pro rata there is a far greater chance of finding rape, attempted rape or lewd behaviour in the Palace of Westminster than there is on any multi cultural Town or City
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
Most Muslims aren't rapists. Deport the ones that are, I don't have an issue with that. But just the same way we should put white British rapists in jail for life.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
Most Muslims aren't rapists. Deport the ones that are, I don't have an issue with that. But just the same way we should put white British rapists in jail for life.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
I presume you include in your deportation order the foreign rapists who have a right to a family life in the uk? Would be an awesome pivot if Starmer moves to leave the ECHR. And one do the few things that keeps him in power beyond the election I should think
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
Most Muslims aren't rapists. Deport the ones that are, I don't have an issue with that. But just the same way we should put white British rapists in jail for life.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
They are not, but a minority of them are and their activities are known in asian and white communities. There are laws to stop them which arent being applied. Community cohesion will only improve when the law is applied to al equally.
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
Most Muslims aren't rapists. Deport the ones that are, I don't have an issue with that. But just the same way we should put white British rapists in jail for life.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
I presume you include in your deportation order the foreign rapists who have a right to a family life in the uk? Would be an awesome pivot if Starmer moves to leave the ECHR. And one do the few things that keeps him in power beyond the election I should think
"In 2008, the Home Office sent a circular to all police forces in the country saying "as far as these young girls being exploited in towns & cities (are concerned), we believe they've made an informed choice about their sexual behaviour & therefore it's not for you police officers to get involved in."
Nazir is one of the grooming gang heroes. As prosecutor he jailed the Rochdale monsters, breaking the dam.
He happens to be of Pakistani heritage & a practicing Muslim, a principled man.
Witness how mis-information spreads. This is NOT what the memo said.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
You are missing my point. I'll try one more time.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
That’s because you don’t realise what it’s going to cost (economically not just directly monetarily but keep an eye on Morgan and Mona for the latter. And increasing renewable supply in any case does not require us to shut down North Sea early, losing fiscal income, export income and bringing forward the abandonment expenses artificially early.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
No
Thanks for the informed response.
It's the response you asked for.
It seems pretty moronic to me to not utilise cheap energy that will set us up for life but what do I know?
I do think integration is a serious problem in terms of immigration. I just don't see how it's worse for Muslims than it is for many others.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
You dont see them raping the locals either.
Most Muslims aren't rapists. Deport the ones that are, I don't have an issue with that. But just the same way we should put white British rapists in jail for life.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
I presume you include in your deportation order the foreign rapists who have a right to a family life in the uk? Would be an awesome pivot if Starmer moves to leave the ECHR. And one do the few things that keeps him in power beyond the election I should think
Let's join Belarus, North Korea and Russia.
And Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US, Japan etc…
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
Then that's a perfectly fine view to hold. But that's not unique to Muslims, do you agree?
Of course not.
But then why does all of the attention get paid to Muslims? What we should be talking about is non-integration of immigrants.
We don't talk about problems in Spain because this is not Spain.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
You are missing my point. I'll try one more time.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
The world may be coming to a position where generalised population exchanges become normalised. If Brits in Spain are a problem, Spain should have the right to deport them.
Plastering farmland with solar panels is exactly what we SHOULD be doing. I can't see how anyone can possibly oppose cheap energy that reduces our reliance on Russia.
As for mass deportation, I don't see how that's a solution for anything really. What is the end goal?
The end goal is a Spain where Spanish people can feel at home everywhere instead of being made to feel like foreigners in their own land by uncouth Brits.
My family have Co owned a house in Femes just outside Playa Blanca in Lanzarote for about 30 years.
We know the locals in the small mountain top village very well. We spend a lot of time there, speak the language and have always been welcomed.
My perception of their growing anger is not linked to the Hotels and regular tourists but more the courage affecting Devon and Cornwall
Partially second homes locked up 45 weeks a year with no attempt to integrate but far more the Air Bnb influx... Buying up property in non tourist areas and renting out 365 days a year to pissed up drugged up gen zs who fly in fly out, spending very little in the local economy other than loud lewd drink and drug addled anti social behaviour.
Frankly some of what we are starting to see is shameful.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
I am not getting this "complacency" idea, I think Reform has a very good chance of being involved in government after 2029. The question is what we do about it.
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
He’s not showing much success of delivery on anything much from what I can see. Streeting has a marginally better antenna but it’s not obvious how labour execute the switch
Did you expect much in six months? I mean what could he have tangibly delivered in that time, in your view?
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
All I see are gilt yields higher than under truss, ideologically motivated attacks on small businesses/ family farmers/small independent schools, the early prison release of the worst sorts (found myself stuck in a lock-in with one recently), the systematic destruction of the uk’s competitiveness through crass taxation and energy policy, and the same “embarrassed to be British” attitude to almost everything (see Chagos, Southport etc…).
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
Struggling to understand what the issue with trying to make us a leader in renewable energy is. Surely that's what we should be doing, no?
No
Thanks for the informed response.
It's the response you asked for.
It seems pretty moronic to me to not utilise cheap energy that will set us up for life but what do I know?
It's about 5 countries in between. It may have worked 300 years ago, when it was the Ottoman Emplre, or in the late 19C early 20C when Italy wanted an Empire.
I need the next bit of audio, so I can hear her answer when asked if she mainlining a hallucinogen.
Sorry - AN hallucinogen.
Checking, I see that La Suella has a 3 hour programme on LBC, so I'm not going looking for it. I value my blood pressure !
However, we have a reverse ferret on Twitter, Bluesky tells me:
https://x.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1874821448272863688 Thanks for all your great calls. Good discussions on small boats, Israel and Labour’s education policies. ... And, obviously I meant Greece’s land border with Turkey which I was honoured to visit. It’s been very successful!
It's 94 years ago, but Stanley Baldwin already had the measure of Musk's ilks:
"The newspapers attacking me are not newspapers in the ordinary sense. They are engines of propaganda for the constantly changing policies, desires, personal vices, personal likes and dislikes of the two men. What are their methods? Their methods are direct false- hoods misrepresentation, half-truths, the alteration of the speaker’s meaning by publishing a sentence apart from the context…What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
What larks if Twitter had been around 90 years ago.
Goebbels: Jew warmonger Manny Shinwell should be imprisoned!
Bland appeasing mouthpiece: This comment of Herr Goebbels is I think misjudged and certainly misinformed, but we’re willing to work with him and Chancellor Hitler to do whatever it takes to support the vital cause of peace in Europe.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I was really shocked to hear about that interview. How was that possibly cleared? Shows perhaps that Streeting doubts Starmer can sack him. Which perhaps he can't.
It's 94 years ago, but Stanley Baldwin already had the measure of Musk's ilks:
"The newspapers attacking me are not newspapers in the ordinary sense. They are engines of propaganda for the constantly changing policies, desires, personal vices, personal likes and dislikes of the two men. What are their methods? Their methods are direct false- hoods misrepresentation, half-truths, the alteration of the speaker’s meaning by publishing a sentence apart from the context…What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
What larks if Twitter had been around 90 years ago.
Goebbels: Jew warmonger Manny Shinwell should be imprisoned!
Bland appeasing mouthpiece: This comment of Herr Goebbels is I think misjudged and certainly misinformed, but we’re willing to work with him and Chancellor Hitler to do whatever it takes to support the vital cause of peace in Europe.
Retro! Comparing Musk and Trump to Hitler and Goebells! Nostalgia market for summer 2024 evidently already ripe
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
It would give them fewer targets.
So you think we should pander to terrorists?
Do you think we should do the opposite of what terrorists want just to spite them?
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
It would give them fewer targets.
So you think we should pander to terrorists?
Do you think we should do the opposite of what terrorists want just to spite them?
I wasn’t suggesting doing that. You were implying we should reduce immigration to pander to the likes of Leak and Parslow.
Trump to be sentenced in hush money case on Friday the day after Carter's state funeral. However he is expected to get an unconditional discharge or at most a fine
I think it's stronger than "expected to get" TBH. From the statement - quite fun of Judge Mershan to put it right at the end of 18 pages:
“While this Court as a matter of law must not make any determination on sentencing prior to giving the parties and Defendant opportunity to be heard, it seems proper at this juncture to make known the Court’s inclination to not impose any sentence of incarceration, a sentence authorized by the conviction but one the People concede they no longer view as a practicable recommendation. As such, in balancing the aforementioned considerations in conjunction with the underlying concerns of the Presidential immunity doctrine, a sentence of an unconditional discharge appears to be the most viable solution to ensure finality and allow Defendant to pursue his appellate options.”
What that amounts to is a permanent criminal record, but no other punishment And what will be a statement for the ages by the Judge - the first convicted * criminal POTUS in history.
* There are lots of other criminal POTODES, I suspect, but this is the first one who was caught, at least for something.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
It would give them fewer targets.
So you think we should pander to terrorists?
Do you think we should do the opposite of what terrorists want just to spite them?
I wasn’t suggesting doing that. You were implying we should reduce immigration to pander to the likes of Leak and Parslow.
No I wasn't. I was responding to your point about how immigration restriction wouldn't stop domestic extremists.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No. We have a clear and demonstrable issue: Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
To be clear, I was talking about events like people marching through the streets of British towns calling for the murder of British soldiers.
OK. A tiny tiny tiny minority of people from a non-British background do that. They may or may not be British citizens born here.
So what - specifically - is the "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" you propose?
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
No. We have a clear and demonstrable issue: Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
To be clear, I was talking about events like people marching through the streets of British towns calling for the murder of British soldiers.
OK. A tiny tiny tiny minority of people from a non-British background do that. They may or may not be British citizens born here.
So what - specifically - is the "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" you propose?
I think it should be tackled economically. Make the economy so bad that only people who really love this country stay behind while everyone else leaves. I think Rachel Reeves is a believer in this approach.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Exactly. We have had an enquiry, why do we need another and what would it achieve anyway ?
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
I'm from Rochdale and I've lived and worked in Rotherham. I'm associated with this via my history, and I can look back over the way those towns worked at the time I was there to have a bit of understanding about the mood.
Both towns had real issues of social and racial division, of suspicion and segregation. I can get how this could go on under the radar - because the radar was crappy and had huge holes in the net. What I can't get is how the authorities were so dismissive. Police who actively disbelieved anything that poor girls said. Social workers who were paranoid about being seen as racist in a town screwed by racism.
The legal and law enforcement issue - traditionally the right - is just as key to this as the social work and councillors issue - traditionally the left. One side trying to blame exclusively the other is how we had this go on for so long. So I am less than amused with Tories denouncing Labour for Tory failings. It gets us nowhere.
A girls saying I’m being abused by one person is an awkward court case for the police to deal with.
A girl saying I’m being abused by multiple people is very difficult to deal with - it’s 1 (untrustworthy) person against multiple people some or all of whom are unknown to the police.
Hence I can see why it took a long time for it to be investigated and a long time for it to be dealt with.
And we then get to the final point that while it may look organized and like malice the reality is many of the people involved have limited time in a day and more pressing issues which would have an immediate effect
One of the problems is that the police and the social workers came to see the girls who were raped as the problem. The girls wouldn't do what they were told. They'd keep on running away from their homes. They were rude and didn't behave.
And the police and social workers who should have helped them didn't have enough compassion to see past that bad behaviour.
It's the same problem with the Guardian's unkind dig at Raducanu. Or the vitriol expressed online in general and on PB.com in particular. The lack of compassion for those who find themself needing a bit of help, or having made a mistake.
I have been very critical of Liz Truss in the past, but it's perhaps worth noting that her instinct during the TV debate when the presenter fainted was exactly right - she moved forward to help. We would do well to encourage and exercise that side of our nature, rather than the side encouraged to laugh at, and revel in, other's misfortune.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
It would give them fewer targets.
So you think we should pander to terrorists?
Do you think we should do the opposite of what terrorists want just to spite them?
I wasn’t suggesting doing that. You were implying we should reduce immigration to pander to the likes of Leak and Parslow.
No I wasn't. I was responding to your point about how immigration restriction wouldn't stop domestic extremists.
Copeland targeted a gay pub. Should we close down gay pubs next?
It's 94 years ago, but Stanley Baldwin already had the measure of Musk's ilks:
"The newspapers attacking me are not newspapers in the ordinary sense. They are engines of propaganda for the constantly changing policies, desires, personal vices, personal likes and dislikes of the two men. What are their methods? Their methods are direct false- hoods misrepresentation, half-truths, the alteration of the speaker’s meaning by publishing a sentence apart from the context…What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
What larks if Twitter had been around 90 years ago.
Goebbels: Jew warmonger Manny Shinwell should be imprisoned!
Bland appeasing mouthpiece: This comment of Herr Goebbels is I think misjudged and certainly misinformed, but we’re willing to work with him and Chancellor Hitler to do whatever it takes to support the vital cause of peace in Europe.
Retro! Comparing Musk and Trump to Hitler and Goebells! Nostalgia market for summer 2024 evidently already ripe
Describing Trump as the US Hitler (copyright J D Vance) is pretty à la mode, and the cheesy charlatan in his barely educated way has said he wants loyal generals like wot Hitler had.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
They certainly highlighted the fact that we have imported a substantial number of poeple with no loyalty to the British state or people.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
So can you see the value in a very restrictive and selective immigration policy to minimise the possibility of events like that?
We have our own, homegrown violent extremists, e.g. Tommy Robinson, David Copeland, Andrew Leak, Callum Parslow, etc. Immigration restrictions wouldn’t stop them.
It would give them fewer targets.
So you think we should pander to terrorists?
Do you think we should do the opposite of what terrorists want just to spite them?
I wasn’t suggesting doing that. You were implying we should reduce immigration to pander to the likes of Leak and Parslow.
No I wasn't. I was responding to your point about how immigration restriction wouldn't stop domestic extremists.
Copeland targeted a gay pub. Should we close down gay pubs next?
As I'm not advocating changing our policies in response to terrorism, that's irrelevant.
Comments
But I can't see why he's 'hated'.
For the record I don't 'hate' the likes of Bravermann; I fear her, yes, but I don't hate her.
A girl saying I’m being abused by multiple people is very difficult to deal with - it’s 1 (untrustworthy) person against multiple people some or all of whom are unknown to the police.
Hence I can see why it took a long time for it to be investigated and a long time for it to be dealt with.
And we then get to the final point that while it may look organized and like malice the reality is many of the people involved have limited time in a day and more pressing issues which would have an immediate effect
Starmer has taken the approach of don't respond to it and show delivery instead, particularly on immigration. Do you think that is wise?
Badenoch IMV has taken the silly approach of attacking him as a liar instead. This didn't work when Labour tried it for Johnson. Won't work now.
I am very aware of the Reform threat - but I am still not really sure what to do about it. But I don't see much evidence anyone is actually ignoring it.
some 56 per cent of the party’s (ie Reform party) members thought government should cut taxes and spend less on public services,
This isn't very informative unless we know which services (NHS? Defence? Pensions? Schools being free? Bin emptying? Pot holes?) they want less spent on.
SFAICS Reform members will want less spent on things in general but more spent on each particular. Like a lot of people.
"The newspapers attacking me are not newspapers in the ordinary sense. They are engines of propaganda for the constantly changing policies, desires, personal vices, personal likes and dislikes of the two men. What are their methods? Their methods are direct false- hoods misrepresentation, half-truths, the alteration of the speaker’s meaning by publishing a sentence apart from the context…What the proprietorship of these papers is aiming at is power, and power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages".
'We take our dogs to bed to stay warm'
Interesting article on the WFA cut that I wanted to share.
My only question is, why are the elderly any more deserving of the payment than somebody with a long term health condition but who isn't over a certain age?
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
The work on planning is the best thing they've done. They really have space to sort that out if they wish to take it as they don't have any NIMBYs on their side to appease. There have been good moves in this arena, e.g. allowing the M&S re-build to progress.
An MP has been criticised for downplaying the Cologne sex attacks by comparing them to harassment of women during a typical night out in Birmingham.
Hundreds of women in the German city were subjected to sexual assaults on New Year's Eve, 2015.
Jess Phillips, Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley, said it was akin to "heckling" on Birmingham's Broad Street.
Mrs Phillips made her comments on Thursday's BBC Question Time.
She was speaking during a debate about how many refugees should be allowed into Britain, in which an audience member suggested events in Cologne - said to have been carried out by migrants - proved mass immigration did not work.
She told the audience: "A very similar situation to what happened in Cologne could be describing Broad Street in Birmingham every week, where women are baited and heckled."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-35440954
In an FPTP system with votes fairly well spread out apart from a quite weak concentration of votes in the red wall (in very few places would Reform get to 50%) and at least some impetus for tactical voting against, I think it does limit Reform to 100ish seats tops.
Of course, the whole game could change with the next 4 years of assaultive propaganda from various superpowers, but that's not my default assumption.
Competition
1. Lab 30, Con 32, LD 17, Ref 26
2. Lab 19, Con 25, LD 10, Ref 17
3. MPs 7
4. defectors 2
5. by-elections 2
6. ministers 2
7. afd 147
8. cpi 3.0%
9. borrowing gbp136bn
10. uk "growth" -0.4%
11. us growth 1.0%
12. eu growth 0.3%
13. usdrub 135
14. ashes aus2-1
As you say, a total break in our current trajectory.
I'm sure you'd agree that sort of 'immigrant' is the sort no country should allow in...
Sound familiar?
And twitter doesn’t offer that anymore.
I don't see many people from say Asian cultures rushing to integrate with the locals.
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Grooming gangs where the perps are muslim
Grooming gangs where the perps are of Pakistani heritage
Grooming gangs where the perps target white girls
Racists look at this and say "its the fault of (all) muslims / Pakistanis
Anti-Racists shriek and say "you can't racially profile" the people who are racially profiling in their criminal activity
Your "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" does what? Restricts muslims? But the vast majority of muslims are not paedophiles. Restricts men of Pakistani heritage? Again, the vast majority not paedophiles. And in "making our streets safer" which is the demand of the "send them home" crowd, we ignore the majority of nonces who are white Brits.
What is needed is balance. We have an issue with a select group of men. Calling out their ethnicity is not racism. Targeting all people of that ethnicity to blame them for the crimes of a few is racism.
Our problem is that whilst we don't do enough to tackle the specific problem - rapey gangs - we allow the cesspool of racists to attract the support of others by pointing out the failings to go after the gangs.
Place your bets. A) doesn’t feel likely to me unless He Who Shall Not Be Named returns. And he’d have a job winning again, given his immigration record.
It's about 5 countries in between. It may have worked 300 years ago, when it was the Ottoman Emplre, or in the late 19C early 20C when Italy wanted an Empire.
I need the next bit of audio, so I can hear her answer when asked if she mainlining a hallucinogen.
Don’t assume or decide what I think, either. Mug.
I don't think the fact English is a universal language makes non-integration or not speaking the language of the country any more justifiable, to be honest. It's why I always try and speak the language when I go abroad. It's just rude otherwise.
So are you supporting mass deportation in both cases?
You can see the lack of local focus and ground game also in their GE results, where their support is comparatively evenly spread across the country. Contrast the LDs who do have ground game and focus on specific target seats, which got them a lot more MPs and a voting pattern where some constituencies are LD enough to be won and in a lot of the rest they're nowhere, but not many in the gap in between. Reform have a much bigger set of constuencies where their vote share is in that no man's land where it's significant but still well under winnable. Will they adopt a more localised approach or stick to working at a national level, trusting that if they can get their vote share up then they'll get over a tipping point?
Littler is an overweight 17 year old who has basically done nothing but throw darts since he was 5. Radacanu has played tennis since a similar age but needs to be supremely fit, let's use Lando Norris in F1 who relies on his equipment, I can't think of a gymnast or skater who is young but let's say Beth Tweddle. In soccer we have probably the greatest talent this country has produced since Duncan Edwards in Jude Bellingham, or Harry Brook in cricket.
I have a bias towards sport of the athletic and technical slant so for me Bellingham is way ahead of Brook, notional Tweddle and then Norris... I think Littler is a great game player as was Phil Taylor... But SPOTY not for me.
My actual view is that integration is not a specific issue with Muslims. It's an issue with some people and some immigrants.
The solution is making the immigration system work better for that. It's not stopping Muslims coming into the country.
There’s enough in 6months already to have seriously disillusioned most of their 2024 switchers, perhaps irreparably. Normally after such a long period of exhausted govt, the new lot have a honeymoon, allowing time for memories to blur and eventually the pendulum to swing back the other way. But this time the credibility collapse of the new govt has been too quick for the Tories to benefit from it. Quite an academically interesting phenomenon, if I weren’t actually living under it.
My problem is not that we shouldn't call a spade a spade, it's that people say they have an issue with integration but it only ever seems to concern Muslims.
This is
@nazirafzal
speaking about the then Home Secretary
@Jacqui_Smith1
's memo.
"In 2008, the Home Office sent a circular to all police forces in the country saying "as far as these young girls being exploited in towns & cities (are concerned), we believe they've made an informed choice about their sexual behaviour & therefore it's not for you police officers to get involved in."
Nazir is one of the grooming gang heroes. As prosecutor he jailed the Rochdale monsters, breaking the dam.
He happens to be of Pakistani heritage & a practicing Muslim, a principled man.
Witness how mis-information spreads. This is NOT what the memo said.
In the context of Britain, there is a common denominator between examples like the Batley teacher being forced into hiding or people marching on our streets calling for the murder of British soldiers. Maybe this wrongly puts all the focus on Muslims and you are right to say that we should be concerned more broadly with who is coming here and the potential for future strife.
I think there is an issue with non-integration of immigrants. I think though it's not an issue with Muslims, nor is it unique to the UK.
That's why I pointed to the example of Spain. And the double standards we as the UK apply.
We know the locals in the small mountain top village very well. We spend a lot of time there, speak the language and have always been welcomed.
My perception of their growing anger is not linked to the Hotels and regular tourists but more the courage affecting Devon and Cornwall
Partially second homes locked up 45 weeks a year with no attempt to integrate but far more the Air Bnb influx... Buying up property in non tourist areas and renting out 365 days a year to pissed up drugged up gen zs who fly in fly out, spending very little in the local economy other than loud lewd drink and drug addled anti social behaviour.
Frankly some of what we are starting to see is shameful.
Checking, I see that La Suella has a 3 hour programme on LBC, so I'm not going looking for it. I value my blood pressure !
However, we have a reverse ferret on Twitter, Bluesky tells me:
https://x.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1874821448272863688
Thanks for all your great calls. Good discussions on small boats, Israel and Labour’s education policies.
...
And, obviously I meant Greece’s land border with Turkey which I was honoured to visit. It’s been very successful!
Goebbels: Jew warmonger Manny Shinwell should be imprisoned!
Bland appeasing mouthpiece: This comment of Herr Goebbels is I think misjudged and certainly misinformed, but we’re willing to work with him and Chancellor Hitler to do whatever it takes to support the vital cause of peace in Europe.
“While this Court as a matter of law must not make any determination on sentencing prior to giving the parties and Defendant opportunity to be heard, it seems proper at this juncture to make known the Court’s inclination to not impose any sentence of incarceration, a sentence authorized by the conviction but one the People concede they no longer view as a practicable recommendation. As such, in balancing the aforementioned considerations in conjunction with the underlying concerns of the Presidential immunity doctrine, a sentence of an unconditional discharge appears to be the most viable solution to ensure finality and allow Defendant to pursue his appellate options.”
What that amounts to is a permanent criminal record, but no other punishment And what will be a statement for the ages by the Judge - the first convicted * criminal POTUS in history.
* There are lots of other criminal POTODES, I suspect, but this is the first one who was caught, at least for something.
So what - specifically - is the "very restrictive and selective immigration policy" you propose?
And the police and social workers who should have helped them didn't have enough compassion to see past that bad behaviour.
It's the same problem with the Guardian's unkind dig at Raducanu. Or the vitriol expressed online in general and on PB.com in particular. The lack of compassion for those who find themself needing a bit of help, or having made a mistake.
I have been very critical of Liz Truss in the past, but it's perhaps worth noting that her instinct during the TV debate when the presenter fainted was exactly right - she moved forward to help. We would do well to encourage and exercise that side of our nature, rather than the side encouraged to laugh at, and revel in, other's misfortune.
but I dont see the problem to the same degree among Hindus, Sikhs, Chinesse.
These feeble attempts to obfuscate the issue are counter productive.
Meanwhile as we speak the rapes are continuing and the criminals involved dont face justice.
The Police need to do their job now.