The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
The pandemic, the panic, and Johnson implementing draconian rules he never believed in were the ultimate black swan event, though.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
If SKS tries to get into a pissing contest with Musk, he'll lose.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
The pandemic, the panic, and Johnson implementing draconian rules he never believed in were the ultimate black swan event, though.
I mean, yes and no. I think the idea he’d have ever made it to 2030 even in the case he didn’t have Covid etc was lunacy.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
Promoting anger is making a lot of people extremely rich and we are too frit to regulate it properly. It is going to get much worse.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
Starmer won't fight the next GE as PM for a second term, and I've bet on that.
Where and what odds?
11/10 with Hills atm
You can get 2/1 (3.05) on Betfair that the year Starmer is replaced as Labour Leader is 2029 or later. That's almost a proxy for "Starmer won't fight the next GE as PM for a second term". Though I guess he could step down in early 2029 for a GE a few months later. Very unlikely that he will do a Biden.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
And this is why everyone is so het up - a CRISIS that has to be dealt with NOW! In reality our issues as a country go back decades and the “crisis” has gone on and on and will continue to go on and on without significantly impacting most people.
The right are raging because they are impotent. In power for 14 years and have presided over the obvious decline which is now the CRISIS. A example: They’re flapping about the lack of a public enquiry which THEY HELD but then chose to ignore.
Reform are the new toy. The election was a fraud because the side we hate won! The King must overthrow democracy using powers he doesn’t have to save democracy! Farage can then free Tommy Robinson who can be put in charge of getting rid of the immigrants! But go ask Reform. They want no part of SYL. 30p did a Good Job shutting down that heckler. There will be more. In the het up bubble we’re drowning in psychotic Muslims who will rape and Sharia is out of our own country and cation must be taken NOW.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My youtube homepage increasingly seems to have borderline nutter videos 'for you'. All I watch on YT are cookery videos, programming and the weather forecast. I very deliberately don't watch anything political on there to avoid it turning into a cesspit. And no matter how many times I've clicked "not interested" or "don't recommend this channel" - up pops another weird prepper or 'why net zero is A CON!!11!' thing.
I never get anything like that even moderately 'left wing'.
I asked a friend who works in digital marketing and he thought it might be to do with the cookery shows. Watched some "how to make your own pickles" videos? Maybe you're a homesteader? Which means maybe you're a prepper... which maybe means you live in an armed compound... which ....
I had to stop following a UK 'air fryer recipe' channel as the woman who ran it started going off to nutter-ville about this animal feed that's made out of seaweed (to stop cows farting so much). Proper rabbithole of 'proof!' (being a screenshot of a FB post), vague shadowy mentions of "Bill Gates is an investor!", and also apparently this animal feed has instructions on it saying "Not for human consumption!". Imagine!
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
There's a big dose of denial around just how crap the new government is and now that the boot is on the other foot the lefties are threatening to take their ball and go home, for the last 5 years at least people like me and you (and HYFUD) stuck around here despite the abuse often directed at us.
It's the lefty way really, threaten to leave if opposing voices aren't shut down. I hope Foxy stays too, yet this is the rough and tumble of debate, we live in rancorous times and if the lefties are unable to accept that Starmer is a dud and Reeves is actively harmful to the nation's economy then it's going to be a very difficult 3-4 years for them.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
You’re right about the government. Problem is that you had 14 years and presided over making so many things patently worse - you aren’t the answer either.
As we slide further into decline as a nation, the need for grown up politics and cross party thinking is greater than ever. A pity that hyper partisanship is more attractive
Starmer won't fight the next GE as PM for a second term, and I've bet on that.
Where and what odds?
11/10 with Hills atm
You can get 2/1 (3.05) on Betfair that the year Starmer is replaced as Labour Leader is 2029 or later. That's almost a proxy for "Starmer won't fight the next GE as PM for a second term". Though I guess he could step down in early 2029 for a GE a few months later. Very unlikely that he will do a Biden.
He steps down 2028 or 2029 in my view. And Streeting takes over with something positive to say about health.
Labour government with reduced majority/Lib Dem c&s is my central view at the moment. I can’t see this majority being removed in a single go albeit stranger things have happened.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
I've got to admit it was in some ways more fun criticising the disaster that was the Tory administration.
But it was a tainted pleasure, knowing as I did that it came at the cost of Johnson, Truss, Sunak and co. trashing the country.
I console myself that the country is in a far better place now, even if my PB pleasure is a bit reduced.
As long as people who have always voted against Labour tell us how bad Labour is, it’s not going to be particularly interesting reading how every day the government is due to collapse.
The reality is that in every way, the previous lot was worse. That is objectively true however much they would like to pretend it isn’t.
Let’s start with partying through lockdown.
Or cancelling HS2 out of spite.
Or killing SureStart.
Or spending money on a scheme that they knew wouldn’t work to deport illegal immigrants.
Or cutting the Police.
Or privatising probation.
Or cutting border force agents.
Or failing to invest in virtually any infrastructure.
Or overseeing the absurdity of planning.
Or not building any homes.
Or when they crashed the economy.
The list literally goes on. Cameron as a PM was fine, I’d vote for him tomorrow but since he left the Tories have been destroying this country not just accidentally but in many cases, on purpose. Austerity has a lot to answer for but at least I could see the intellectual case for it unlike anything they’ve done since.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
You’re right about the government. Problem is that you had 14 years and presided over making so many things patently worse - you aren’t the answer either.
As we slide further into decline as a nation, the need for grown up politics and cross party thinking is greater than ever. A pity that hyper partisanship is more attractive
And in six months Labour has tanked the economy, given away overseas territory and cosied up to China. They've actively made everything worse in a very short period of time, surely you see it?
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
And this is why everyone is so het up - a CRISIS that has to be dealt with NOW! In reality our issues as a country go back decades and the “crisis” has gone on and on and will continue to go on and on without significantly impacting most people.
The right are raging because they are impotent. In power for 14 years and have presided over the obvious decline which is now the CRISIS. A example: They’re flapping about the lack of a public enquiry which THEY HELD but then chose to ignore.
Reform are the new toy. The election was a fraud because the side we hate won! The King must overthrow democracy using powers he doesn’t have to save democracy! Farage can then free Tommy Robinson who can be put in charge of getting rid of the immigrants! But go ask Reform. They want no part of SYL. 30p did a Good Job shutting down that heckler. There will be more. In the het up bubble we’re drowning in psychotic Muslims who will rape and Sharia is out of our own country and cation must be taken NOW.
Strong agree, but with two caveats.
One is that it's not just 14 years. If you are in the "Blair was a sound chap, shame about the rosette" club, your era of potency is 45 years or so. Blair and Brown were willing to tickle the right's tummy when convenient. Starmer is the first PM for ages who isn't interested in the niceties. Hence the raginess of the impotence.
And although Reform are currently managing the Tommyrot Muskgasm better than the Conservatives (for pity's sake), there's a risk for them too. You know the old proverb about riding a tiger...
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Thanks Ben, I'll be doing it and I intend to win this time.
PS: I've just recalled that time when lots of right wingers got incredibly annoyed at Barack Obama's little "back of the queue" comment. Don't know what brought that back.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
Surely the problem for Labour is that Reform won't take 10 points from the Tories, they'll take 5 points from both Labour and the Tories and potentially 5% from DNV?
"Comparisons with other teenage prodigies are obviously inevitable. But this isn’t Emma Raducanu, because Littler is actually really good."
Ouch.
Radicanu is young and may come back, but has done little of note since her grand slam win.
Littler has consistently won competitions since he burst onto the scene and has just got better and better.
He also seems to have the respect and friendship of his fellow professionals too.
I recall when she first won that I said she was pretty overrated and I couldn’t understand the hype.
“She’s going to make millions”, “deal with Vodafone”. I’m sure she did very well out of it but as far as I can tell most of the brands have either dropped her or in the case of Vodafone she’s essentially been relegated to invisible.
She was interviewed in the Telegraph saying she plans to cut down on her sponsorships in December.
I suspect that is news management and the decision won’t be hers alone.
Sponsors need to be associated with winners or star names to make the sponsorship worthwhile.
She may well come back and turn out to be a decent player and not a flash in the pan. We love a redemption story.
Thanks Ben, I'll be doing it and I intend to win this time.
PS: I've just recalled that time when lots of right wingers got incredibly annoyed at Barack Obama's little "back of the queue" comment. Don't know what brought that back.
No you see that was the wrong kind of person getting involved in our democracy. Just as Elon Musk is right.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
But “insert politician here is crap” and “Elon Musk is fabulous” and “Nigel for PM” makes this site less and less interesting. I can go to Twitter and get the same analysis.
I still like to post here as I do value hearing from those who oppose me but I have to concede, it’s way less good than it was.
PB has always had its ups and downs. Same goes for individual posters.
I'd be very sad to see Foxy leave.
I'll be said to see Foxy leave too.
He really pisses me off at times - in fact, almost daily, particularly with his trolling - but there's no doubt he adds valuable perspective to this site and has some unique and interesting views at times too.
People come, people go. That’s the way these places are.
So be it.
I didn’t see anything too untoward last night but I was mainly posting about darts.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
We haven't had "that" inquiry. We've had loads of separate and regional ones done under the cover of darkness with the establishment trying their best not to "draw conclusions" they didn't like from them. We need a national inquiry with all of the victims invited, all of the whistle blowers invited and all of those journalists who investigated this invited to give public and unredacted evidence live on TV.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
Surely the problem for Labour is that Reform won't take 10 points from the Tories, they'll take 5 points from both Labour and the Tories and potentially 5% from DNV?
Reform are the triple threat: Take a chunk of votes from Labour in left-behind towns in the north and midlands Take a chunk of votes from the Tories in left-behind towns in the midlands and south Pick up votes from the people who last voted for Leave who don't vote
The challenge for Reform is that - as Boris discovered - that is a very broad pool of voters and non-voters who unify on disliking migrants but not on *why* they dislike them and the outcome they want.
Muskybaby appears to have decided that Yaxley Lennon is some kind of volk hero (see what I did there?) who needs to be stapled to the VOTE REFORM ramping. Problem is that most people can see a fascist moron when they see one, and SYL associated with Reform sinks Reform.
Reform were Brexit were UKIP. Less than a decade. Perhaps the question is which party eclipses Reform and becomes the true alt-right populists?
"Older" plus "very online" is an interesting combination, given that I think the very-online tends to skew young.
Oh I don’t know. The old basically pushed young people off Facebook with politics for good. Facebook was so much better in the early 2010s before people over the age of 30 discovered it.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
If Reform got to 30% then they could be largest party if they got to 35% they could even get a majority.
At present though they have reached 20% from the 14% they got at the general election but those net gains have mainly been from 2024 Labour voters many of whom voted for Boris in 2019. 2024 Tory voters who voted for Rishi seem immune to Farage's charms and are sticking with Kemi. Of course most of the Boris and Truss loving Conservatives who hated Rishi voted for Farage last July anyway
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
I thought Streeting had the perfect reply to the Musk furore.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
"Older" plus "very online" is an interesting combination, given that I think the very-online tends to skew young.
I suspect that ‘very online’ is going to become increasingly ‘u’ shaped as time passes. OAPS, like young students, often have quite a lot of time to fill.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
There's a big dose of denial around just how crap the new government is and now that the boot is on the other foot the lefties are threatening to take their ball and go home, for the last 5 years at least people like me and you (and HYFUD) stuck around here despite the abuse often directed at us.
It's the lefty way really, threaten to leave if opposing voices aren't shut down. I hope Foxy stays too, yet this is the rough and tumble of debate, we live in rancorous times and if the lefties are unable to accept that Starmer is a dud and Reeves is actively harmful to the nation's economy then it's going to be a very difficult 3-4 years for them.
Not getting a huge denial vibe really, more ‘I thought they wouldn’t be as batshit crap as the Tories’, a view which even I as very much not a Starmlab fan shared. They’re certainly more crap than I expected however.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
We haven't had "that" inquiry. We've had loads of separate and regional ones done under the cover of darkness with the establishment trying their best not to "draw conclusions" they didn't like from them. We need a national inquiry with all of the victims invited, all of the whistle blowers invited and all of those journalists who investigated this invited to give public and unredacted evidence live on TV.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
OK fine.
If we haven't had *that* enquiry then why didn't the Tories hold one? If the Phillips letter is bad then why is the Solloway letter good? If its practically criminal for Labour to not have acted in 6 months then why is is ok that the Tories didn't act for 14 years?
You mention the establishment cover up. That is the issue. So why are you and the desperate parts of the right trying to make this party political? You just look daft, and it does nothing to resolve the issue. We need grown up politics - not enough has been done, for a long time, by all governments. So now we reach across the Commons to Get This Done.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
Your idea of an inquiry is pointless because, as you stated last night, you don't want it to be 'fair',
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
Surely the problem for Labour is that Reform won't take 10 points from the Tories, they'll take 5 points from both Labour and the Tories and potentially 5% from DNV?
Yes, and that does open up a path. But that is still a significant swing to the right, picking up more than 50% of the vote overall, and represents a much bigger move away from Labour than we see in the polling at the moment.
It's hard to see that - at least some of the reason for Labour's low vote share in GE '24 was due to the inevitability of victory and Sunak not being obviously evil. The Musk/Farage/Trump vibe would change all that.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Thanks Ben, I'll be doing it and I intend to win this time.
PS: I've just recalled that time when lots of right wingers got incredibly annoyed at Barack Obama's little "back of the queue" comment. Don't know what brought that back.
No you see that was the wrong kind of person getting involved in our democracy. Just as Elon Musk is right.
The sovereignty fetishist brexitards aren't averse to foreign interference as long as it's done by an alt-right maniac exemplifying the dark triad from the bottom of a ket hole.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
If Reform got to 30% then they could be largest party if they got to 35% they could even get a majority.
At present though they have reached 20% from the 14% they got at the general election but those net gains have mainly been from 2024 Labour voters many of whom voted for Boris in 2019. 2024 Tory voters who voted for Rishi seem immune to Farage's charms and are sticking with Kemi. Of course most of the Boris and Truss loving Conservatives who hated Rishi voted for Farage last July anyway
Except for the many former Conservative voters who decided to vote Lib Dem. You always for get this group. young HY.
Trump to be sentenced in hush money case on Friday the day after Carter's state funeral. However he is expected to get an unconditional discharge or at most a fine
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
I've got to admit it was in some ways more fun criticising the disaster that was the Tory administration.
But it was a tainted pleasure, knowing as I did that it came at the cost of Johnson, Truss, Sunak and co. trashing the country.
I console myself that the country is in a far better place now, even if my PB pleasure is a bit reduced.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Exactly. We have had an enquiry, why do we need another and what would it achieve anyway ?
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Stopped reading at utter nonsense.
Sorry.
Then we’ve really got nothing more to say to each other. I’ve always engaged with you in good faith but if you just want to stick your fingers in your ears when I reply to you then it’s pointless. You get a lot of unfair stick on this board but you’re really testing my patience.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Don’t disagree
It works for me as I stick to the ‘following’ tab and my feed is stuff I am interested in and engage with.
The problem is that people want an enquiry to say one thing and if it doesn’t they will immediately say cover up. So having an enquiry is pointless because the people that want one made up their minds ages ago.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
But “insert politician here is crap” and “Elon Musk is fabulous” and “Nigel for PM” makes this site less and less interesting. I can go to Twitter and get the same analysis.
I still like to post here as I do value hearing from those who oppose me but I have to concede, it’s way less good than it was.
PB has always had its ups and downs. Same goes for individual posters.
I'd be very sad to see Foxy leave.
I'll be said to see Foxy leave too.
He really pisses me off at times - in fact, almost daily, particularly with his trolling - but there's no doubt he adds valuable perspective to this site and has some unique and interesting views at times too.
I honestly don't think Foxy is any more of a troll than you are. And neither of you rank very high on that particular scale.
Thanks Ben, I'll be doing it and I intend to win this time.
PS: I've just recalled that time when lots of right wingers got incredibly annoyed at Barack Obama's little "back of the queue" comment. Don't know what brought that back.
For balance virtually the same people nearly pleasured themselves to death when Obama suggested Scotland should stay in the UK. Nowt as strange as folk!
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
As we slide further into decline as a nation, the need for grown up politics and cross party thinking is greater than ever. A pity that hyper partisanship is more attractive
This is something the Liberal Democrats keep saying without making any suggestions whatsoever for it, except Europhilia, positive noises on Trans, and otherwise telling their various constituencies exactly what they want to hear.
You will get outgunned for the NOTA vote by Reform.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Don’t disagree
It works for me as I stick to the ‘following’ tab and my feed is stuff I am interested in and engage with.
I do that too but despite me muting him, I still get Elon replies on every Tweet I click on. That’s my issue with it. That “irrelevant tweets under tweets” started almost as soon as he took over.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
The pandemic, the panic, and Johnson implementing draconian rules he never believed in were the ultimate black swan event, though.
I mean, yes and no. I think the idea he’d have ever made it to 2030 even in the case he didn’t have Covid etc was lunacy.
Of course we'll never know now, but it would have been interesting to see him actually govern the country to see what he would have done with it. If he'd done at least reasonably then he'd likely have been able to win in 2024 against Starmer who wouldn't in those circumstances have been able to deploy the Ming Vase strategy. Sure, 2030 would have been a stretch, but to get to close to the following election? Quite plausible without the pan(dem)ic.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
But “insert politician here is crap” and “Elon Musk is fabulous” and “Nigel for PM” makes this site less and less interesting. I can go to Twitter and get the same analysis.
I still like to post here as I do value hearing from those who oppose me but I have to concede, it’s way less good than it was.
PB has always had its ups and downs. Same goes for individual posters.
I'd be very sad to see Foxy leave.
I'll be said to see Foxy leave too.
He really pisses me off at times - in fact, almost daily, particularly with his trolling - but there's no doubt he adds valuable perspective to this site and has some unique and interesting views at times too.
I honestly don't think Foxy is any more of a troll than you are. And neither of you rank very high on that particular scale.
Yeah troll is not something that comes to mind when I think of Casino or Foxy. Stubborn with emphatic views sure. But that’s not a bad thing.
The problem is that people want an enquiry to say one thing and if it doesn’t they will immediately say cover up. So having an enquiry is pointless because the people that want one made up their minds ages ago.
Indeed.
Although in many cases, the view that many people formed ages ago might well be the correct one.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
The pandemic, the panic, and Johnson implementing draconian rules he never believed in were the ultimate black swan event, though.
I mean, yes and no. I think the idea he’d have ever made it to 2030 even in the case he didn’t have Covid etc was lunacy.
Of course we'll never know now, but it would have been interesting to see him actually govern the country to see what he would have done with it.
I agree with that. I can give you a positive sign, the shared rural network which he pioneered genuinely has been really good for our network coverage. It just takes a long time to deliver.
The problem is that people want an enquiry to say one thing and if it doesn’t they will immediately say cover up. So having an enquiry is pointless because the people that want one made up their minds ages ago.
Indeed.
Although in many cases, the view that many people formed ages ago might well be the correct one.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
Surely the problem for Labour is that Reform won't take 10 points from the Tories, they'll take 5 points from both Labour and the Tories and potentially 5% from DNV?
Yes, and that does open up a path. But that is still a significant swing to the right, picking up more than 50% of the vote overall, and represents a much bigger move away from Labour than we see in the polling at the moment.
It's hard to see that - at least some of the reason for Labour's low vote share in GE '24 was due to the inevitability of victory and Sunak not being obviously evil. The Musk/Farage/Trump vibe would change all that.
A fair chunk of Labour's low vote share was surely also due to Gaza-sympathetic voters switching to Green/Independent/NV. These will likely return if things have normalised somewhat in the Middle East.
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out. Will he burn out or is this for the long haul. Politics is volatile
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out.
I’m much more concerned about Musk’s influence than anything else at the moment. It sets such a dangerous precedent. The thing is, I really don’t know what to do about it.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
If Reform got to 30% then they could be largest party if they got to 35% they could even get a majority.
At present though they have reached 20% from the 14% they got at the general election but those net gains have mainly been from 2024 Labour voters many of whom voted for Boris in 2019. 2024 Tory voters who voted for Rishi seem immune to Farage's charms and are sticking with Kemi. Of course most of the Boris and Truss loving Conservatives who hated Rishi voted for Farage last July anyway
Except for the many former Conservative voters who decided to vote Lib Dem. You always for get this group. young HY.
Most of those went in 2019 when Boris became leader. The main shift in 2024 was 2019 Conservative voters to Reform and Labour. Plus a few who voted Tory in 2019 to keep out Corbyn went LD in 2024 though Rishi won a few who had gone LD in 2019
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Exactly. We have had an enquiry, why do we need another and what would it achieve anyway ?
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
OTOH having cross-party talks is not a bad thing in principle. Though as has happened in Scotland with several things (mutatis mutandis), the opposition parties will just run away and point to Labour and say 'a big bad boy made me do it' if caught.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
"Comparisons with other teenage prodigies are obviously inevitable. But this isn’t Emma Raducanu, because Littler is actually really good."
Ouch.
Radicanu is young and may come back, but has done little of note since her grand slam win.
Littler has consistently won competitions since he burst onto the scene and has just got better and better.
He also seems to have the respect and friendship of his fellow professionals too.
I recall when she first won that I said she was pretty overrated and I couldn’t understand the hype.
“She’s going to make millions”, “deal with Vodafone”. I’m sure she did very well out of it but as far as I can tell most of the brands have either dropped her or in the case of Vodafone she’s essentially been relegated to invisible.
She was interviewed in the Telegraph saying she plans to cut down on her sponsorships in December.
I suspect that is news management and the decision won’t be hers alone.
Sponsors need to be associated with winners or star names to make the sponsorship worthwhile.
She may well come back and turn out to be a decent player and not a flash in the pan. We love a redemption story.
Our media needs to let her, though, and not keep going jingoistic about her US Open victory.
Trump to be sentenced in hush money case on Friday the day after Carter's state funeral. However he is expected to get an unconditional discharge or at most a fine
I sincerely hope it's a heavy fine. An unconditional discharge would emphasise the corruptibility of the American justice system.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
There's a big dose of denial around just how crap the new government is and now that the boot is on the other foot the lefties are threatening to take their ball and go home, for the last 5 years at least people like me and you (and HYFUD) stuck around here despite the abuse often directed at us.
It's the lefty way really, threaten to leave if opposing voices aren't shut down. I hope Foxy stays too, yet this is the rough and tumble of debate, we live in rancorous times and if the lefties are unable to accept that Starmer is a dud and Reeves is actively harmful to the nation's economy then it's going to be a very difficult 3-4 years for them.
Criticism of the government is entirely fair game. I do it myself. But you went off the deep end last night, IMO, in a way that's pretty unusual for you.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Starmer is hated by left as well as right especially the Corbynite left for betraying the true faith. When Blair came to power he had the good will of the left in labour. Starmer doesn’t and has even removed the whip from some who seem to spend as much time opposing him now as the Tories.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Outside of North London and university towns and cities and areas with large Muslim populations yes he is. Rural and provincial UK hate Starmer in a way they never hated Blair and Brown was more popular in Scotland than Starmer is
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Of course he is. We didn't have social media algos whipping us up into pscyhotic frenzies back then. All you could do was write to Terry Wogan on Points of View.
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out. Will he burn out or is this for the long haul. Politics is volatile
I don't think Murdoch is a good comparison. Twitter isn't an old-fashioned media "organ" but a one of a number of platforms that are facilitating a merger of Anglosphere politics into a combined online conversation.
The more people say Labour is finished, the more I feel like they really aren’t. You could transplant this commentary back to 2021 and be confident in your prediction that one Boris Johnson would be PM until 2030. Which as we all know, is exactly what came to pass.
I think that some on the left thought they were getting 1997 Part Deux.
The honeymoon period evaporated really rapidly.
For the next election, it’s all up in the air. The issue for Labour is that they are seen as part of the problem - along with the Conservatives and Lib Dem’s, the parties of the Consensus.
Hence the wet fish slap from Starmer against the Blob. He needs to change things to move that needle. And it’s proving very, very difficult.
If you’ll forgive me, I don’t think I said this would be like 1997 beyond the scale of the victory. It’s very different.
Do I think SKS has a strategy. Yes I do.
Will it be successful? Not sure.
But any potential replacement will increase the odds of Labour winning again/continuing to govern IMHO.
I didn’t say you - I said “some”. I think that includes a few at the top of the Labour Party, though.
Merely changing leaders doesn’t improve your chances. Changing to a better leader makes them better. See some recent history for the reverse happening.
SKS's strategy is clearly focused on the later stage of Parliament (local elections in the meantime? Er, sorry about that), and I don't see him being replaced before it's clear whether it's working. The main threat is that a clear right-wing opposition emerges from the current Tory-Reform split. If everyone is on 20-30% in two years' time, I think Starmer will pull away. If Reform eats 10 points off the Tories (or, less likely, vice versa), it'll be much tougher.
It depends on where Reform consume those Conservative votes. In your 10-point transfer scenario, assuming universal swing, Labour still end up with over 400 seats and Reform on only 130.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
If you meant a 10-point transfer based on current polling then you can just about see Reform getting over 300 seats, but it would be very close between them and Lib Dem + Labour.
Surely the problem for Labour is that Reform won't take 10 points from the Tories, they'll take 5 points from both Labour and the Tories and potentially 5% from DNV?
Yes, and that does open up a path. But that is still a significant swing to the right, picking up more than 50% of the vote overall, and represents a much bigger move away from Labour than we see in the polling at the moment.
It's hard to see that - at least some of the reason for Labour's low vote share in GE '24 was due to the inevitability of victory and Sunak not being obviously evil. The Musk/Farage/Trump vibe would change all that.
A fair chunk of Labour's low vote share was surely also due to Gaza-sympathetic voters switching to Green/Independent/NV. These will likely return if things have normalised somewhat in the Middle East.
Yes, but I'd guess they are not the constituencies that would matter in a Reform:Labour head-on election.
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out.
I’m much more concerned about Musk’s influence than anything else at the moment. It sets such a dangerous precedent. The thing is, I really don’t know what to do about it.
Things change fast. A shrewd politician could turn Musk's love and attention to his advantage.
It's not the worst thing in the world for a left wing leader to have privileged right wing establishment billionaire influencers ranting about them. Free publicity at least.
For now, watch and wait and see how Trump gets on in office.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Outside of North London and university towns and cities and areas with large Muslim populations yes he is. Rural and provincial UK hate Starmer in a way they never hated Blair and Brown was more popular in Scotland than Starmer is
I just don’t buy the idea people have that strong a reaction to him. Very unpopular, yes. Hated, don’t buy it. Yet.
His numbers almost perfectly correspond with delivery. If he delivers anything they’ll go back up.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
I've got to admit it was in some ways more fun criticising the disaster that was the Tory administration.
But it was a tainted pleasure, knowing as I did that it came at the cost of Johnson, Truss, Sunak and co. trashing the country.
I console myself that the country is in a far better place now, even if my PB pleasure is a bit reduced.
Lots of trolls on site from either side Shecorns?? is a Labour staffer/troll/tim.. all similar to cheeks of the same arse
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
If that Tory MP was also blocking a full public inquiry into the scandal I'd be quite happy for Musk and anyone else to target them and call them an apologist for rape gangs. Indeed worse was said about Tory MPs by me and others when they were blocking the inquiry into the alleged child abuse network in Westminster. You want to shoot the messenger wrt to this subject, I think. The best way out of this for the government is to call the inquiry and let the chips fall where they fall. Starmer may survive, he may not but having a full public inquiry where victims, whistle blowers and investigators can give full and unredacted evidence live on TV is something this country needs to start moving past this and get action to ensure nothing like this ever happens again.
But *we have had* that enquiry. Under the Tories. It was set aside and ignored by Suella Braverman. And the Phillips letter itself is a carbon copy repeat of one sent by her Tory predecessor to the same council.
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
Exactly. We have had an enquiry, why do we need another and what would it achieve anyway ?
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
I'm from Rochdale and I've lived and worked in Rotherham. I'm associated with this via my history, and I can look back over the way those towns worked at the time I was there to have a bit of understanding about the mood.
Both towns had real issues of social and racial division, of suspicion and segregation. I can get how this could go on under the radar - because the radar was crappy and had huge holes in the net. What I can't get is how the authorities were so dismissive. Police who actively disbelieved anything that poor girls said. Social workers who were paranoid about being seen as racist in a town screwed by racism.
The legal and law enforcement issue - traditionally the right - is just as key to this as the social work and councillors issue - traditionally the left. One side trying to blame exclusively the other is how we had this go on for so long. So I am less than amused with Tories denouncing Labour for Tory failings. It gets us nowhere.
Also “SKS is north London liberal” is one of the most ridiculous and lazy criticisms there is. He’s really neither of those things. Unlike many I’ve actually read the “biography”.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
I think that ‘hated’ is the wrong word, but he suffers from exactly the same problem as Sunak did, in that he’s a bland centrist fiddling while Rome burns, rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, or however you want to put it.
The fact is that the last five years have been some of the most turbulent in history, and no mainstream politician appears to have any answers to the severe problems facing most Western countries at the moment. The people want politicians who have solutions to the problems, rather than those who appear to be in it only to enrich themselves.
The problem is that people want an enquiry to say one thing and if it doesn’t they will immediately say cover up. So having an enquiry is pointless because the people that want one made up their minds ages ago.
Indeed.
Although in many cases, the view that many people formed ages ago might well be the correct one.
And what view is that, in your mind?
Speaking personally? Sadly boring, really. I read a couple of the reports years ago, so my view is probably biased by that.
IMV: there was no overarching conspiracy; just a series of individuals and small groups of people who put their own careers and ease of work ahead of the kids' welfare. Dealing with the issue was too complex at the ground level (those dealing with the kids), and too complex for their bosses, and, if they got to know about it, for their boss's bosses.
The Three Monkeys Syndrome: I refuse to see the reality; I refuse to listen to the evil; I refuse to tell anyone about the evil.
Ignoring what was happening was easier than dealing with it. So it was not dealt with.
Starmer’s biggest mistake by far was talking down the economy too much. That was frankly, moronic.
I actually agree with the policies he’s introduced but I can’t imagine the political hit from the WFA was really worth it. He’d have been better to let fuel duty rise.
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A problem I have is corporate Twitter. Often when one looks them up one doesn't get the latest news. Unless one is a paying subscriber?
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
I think that ‘hated’ is the wrong word, but he suffers from exactly the same problem as Sunak did, in that he’s a bland centrist fiddling while Rome burns, rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, or however you want to put it.
The fact is that the last five years have been some of the most turbulent in history, and no mainstream politician appears to have any answers to the severe problems facing most Western countries at the moment. The people want politicians who have solutions to the problems, rather than those who appear to be in it only to enrich themselves.
My biggest concern with Starmer has always been that I am not sure he has enough of a clear vision in his own head. Enough of a sense of what he wants to achieve in terms of an overriding “Starmerism”. That’s why he can’t sell it.
I think the changes he wants to make are good. But I’m still unclear what the end goal of it really is. And that’s a problem.
Like, he wants to change planning. I’m fully behind that and want more phone masts built. Lots more. But what does that make the country look like? I mean where does it take us?
So far it seems like we’re going to be basically back to where we were in 2010. That’s not a bad thing but I just don’t get the sense much is really going to change.
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out.
I’m much more concerned about Musk’s influence than anything else at the moment. It sets such a dangerous precedent. The thing is, I really don’t know what to do about it.
I hope that, behind the scenes, the Government is assessing the economic and social value of Twitter/X to the country, and deciding whether restrictions would be beneficial.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out.
I’m much more concerned about Musk’s influence than anything else at the moment. It sets such a dangerous precedent. The thing is, I really don’t know what to do about it.
I hope that, behind the scenes, the Government is assessing the economic and social value of Twitter/X to the country, and deciding whether restrictions would be beneficial.
Nick Clegg is available if they need somoene the head up a state-funded British alternative...
The right don't like a Labour leader and are claiming the end of the world. This is not news. 'Twas ever thus.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out. Will he burn out or is this for the long haul. Politics is volatile
I don't think Murdoch is a good comparison. Twitter isn't an old-fashioned media "organ" but a one of a number of platforms that are facilitating a merger of Anglosphere politics into a combined online conversation.
Yeah- at the end of the day, the good old Currant Bun had to turn a profit, and needed the cooperation of mainstream shops and advertisers, which put some limits on its behaviour.
Musky Social Media... rather less so. So he can say whatever he likes.
Despite the polling indications, I think there’s pretty broad complacency across Tory and Labour right now about the electoral threat to them from Reform. I see it here on this board too.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.
A tough front page for Starmer, without any need to invoke Musk.
Hysterical nonsense.
Is he as guilty as the actual rapists? Why?
Utterly absurd.
Talking of hysteria, have you seen PB this evening? You'd never guess Leon is back and on fire!
It was a sewer last night. PB is getting as bad as Twitter at times.
It's going to kill the site as a place for polite and respectful political debate.
It's time to check out for a bit.
Astute as always @Foxy. This site really has gone down a lot of levels since Labour won. It wasn’t at all like this after Johnson won in 2019 which is a shame as there are a lot of good people still here - but I note posting less - from both sides of the aisle.
It was, and it was filled with people calling Johnson a Clown, unethical, reprehensible and saying they'd quit the Conservatives/ never vote Conservative again and the fanatics had won etc. I remember it all.
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
Utter nonsense I’m afraid Casino. I remember posting about Johnson’s inevitable downfall and having nothing but abuse and laughter in response. “Grow up, you lost” was a common refrain. But nothing like what we have now. And the difference is the left/non-Johnson contingent stayed and argued in good faith.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
Starmer is definitely hated in a way that Blair and Brown never were (I'm not old enough to remember Callaghan). Just yesterday I saw some graffiti - in a Labour seat no less, which was most uncomplimentary about "2 Tier Keir".
Do you honestly think Starmer is more hated than Blair was after Iraq?
Remember that Iraq indirectly created Tommy Robinson because it was Muslim protests in Luton that targeted British soldiers that first inspired him.
So he claims. I'd be rather suspicious about that.
Comments
Much of it is that left-leaning posters don't like it up 'em, and this government is directionless, weak, appallingly bad, somewhat vindictive and either gets angry at criticism or hides from it.
The right are raging because they are impotent. In power for 14 years and have presided over the obvious decline which is now the CRISIS. A example: They’re flapping about the lack of a public enquiry which THEY HELD but then chose to ignore.
Reform are the new toy. The election was a fraud because the side we hate won! The King must overthrow democracy using powers he doesn’t have to save democracy! Farage can then free Tommy Robinson who can be put in charge of getting rid of the immigrants! But go ask Reform. They want no part of SYL. 30p did a Good Job shutting down that heckler. There will be more. In the het up bubble we’re drowning in psychotic Muslims who will rape and Sharia is out of our own country and cation must be taken NOW.
And it’s sad you’re joining in occasionally as you post some interesting views albeit I disagree with mostly every single one.
I’ve got no issue with anyone disagreeing with Starmer. In fact I welcome it. But just posting how bad Starmer is repeatedly isn’t interesting to read.
You think Starmer is bad because you don’t support Labour. That’s fine as it goes but it somewhat loosens the thrust by which many say “this government is rubbish and hated”.
As I keep saying, I’ve yet to meet anyone here who has actually swapped from Starmer to another party. And this is basically backed up I the focus groups and polling. In two years we can talk.
Are you not at all concerned by Musk calling one of our MPs a rape gang apologist? Would it be different if he’d said that about a Tory?
I never get anything like that even moderately 'left wing'.
I asked a friend who works in digital marketing and he thought it might be to do with the cookery shows. Watched some "how to make your own pickles" videos? Maybe you're a homesteader? Which means maybe you're a prepper... which maybe means you live in an armed compound... which ....
I had to stop following a UK 'air fryer recipe' channel as the woman who ran it started going off to nutter-ville about this animal feed that's made out of seaweed (to stop cows farting so much). Proper rabbithole of 'proof!' (being a screenshot of a FB post), vague shadowy mentions of "Bill Gates is an investor!", and also apparently this animal feed has instructions on it saying "Not for human consumption!". Imagine!
It's the lefty way really, threaten to leave if opposing voices aren't shut down. I hope Foxy stays too, yet this is the rough and tumble of debate, we live in rancorous times and if the lefties are unable to accept that Starmer is a dud and Reeves is actively harmful to the nation's economy then it's going to be a very difficult 3-4 years for them.
As we slide further into decline as a nation, the need for grown up politics and cross party thinking is greater than ever. A pity that hyper partisanship is more attractive
Labour government with reduced majority/Lib Dem c&s is my central view at the moment. I can’t see this majority being removed in a single go albeit stranger things have happened.
There still has to be a significant overall swing to the "right" for a Farage premiership.
https://bsky.app/profile/adambienkov.bsky.social/post/3ler2pke3zs2a
But it was a tainted pleasure, knowing as I did that it came at the cost of Johnson, Truss, Sunak and co. trashing the country.
I console myself that the country is in a far better place now, even if my PB pleasure is a bit reduced.
The reality is that in every way, the previous lot was worse. That is objectively true however much they would like to pretend it isn’t.
Let’s start with partying through lockdown.
Or cancelling HS2 out of spite.
Or killing SureStart.
Or spending money on a scheme that they knew wouldn’t work to deport illegal immigrants.
Or cutting the Police.
Or privatising probation.
Or cutting border force agents.
Or failing to invest in virtually any infrastructure.
Or overseeing the absurdity of planning.
Or not building any homes.
Or when they crashed the economy.
The list literally goes on. Cameron as a PM was fine, I’d vote for him tomorrow but since he left the Tories have been destroying this country not just accidentally but in many cases, on purpose. Austerity has a lot to answer for but at least I could see the intellectual case for it unlike anything they’ve done since.
One is that it's not just 14 years. If you are in the "Blair was a sound chap, shame about the rosette" club, your era of potency is 45 years or so. Blair and Brown were willing to tickle the right's tummy when convenient. Starmer is the first PM for ages who isn't interested in the niceties. Hence the raginess of the impotence.
And although Reform are currently managing the Tommyrot Muskgasm better than the Conservatives (for pity's sake), there's a risk for them too. You know the old proverb about riding a tiger...
The outcome is crap. But the Tory "WHAY HAVE LABOUR DONE NOTHING" attack is so laughable that I question the mental state of the people advancing it.
I wasn’t aware this would end up on the front page of @DailyMailUK but I stand by every word I said
And I’m happy this is dominating international conversations, finally
Starmer 'guilty as anyone' over failures to tackle grooming gangs
PS: I've just recalled that time when lots of right wingers got incredibly annoyed at Barack Obama's little "back of the queue" comment. Don't know what brought that back.
I suspect that is news management and the decision won’t be hers alone.
Sponsors need to be associated with winners or star names to make the sponsorship worthwhile.
She may well come back and turn out to be a decent player and not a flash in the pan. We love a redemption story.
Here is mine:
Barnesian
1 35,30,15,30
2 24, 23,10,18
3 10
4 4
5 4
6 1
7 121
8 2.60%
9 £110bn
10 1.80%
11 3.00%
12 0.80%
13 142
14 Drawn 2-2
So be it.
I didn’t see anything too untoward last night but I was mainly posting about darts.
The regional approach is part of the establishment cover up to make it seem like isolated incidents in just a few places. A national public inquiry is the only way for the nation to start moving past this and it takes the heat out of the situation once victims are properly compensated, the guilty people are removed from society and those who aided them by covering it up are named, shamed and prosecuted where possible.
Take a chunk of votes from Labour in left-behind towns in the north and midlands
Take a chunk of votes from the Tories in left-behind towns in the midlands and south
Pick up votes from the people who last voted for Leave who don't vote
The challenge for Reform is that - as Boris discovered - that is a very broad pool of voters and non-voters who unify on disliking migrants but not on *why* they dislike them and the outcome they want.
Muskybaby appears to have decided that Yaxley Lennon is some kind of volk hero (see what I did there?) who needs to be stapled to the VOTE REFORM ramping. Problem is that most people can see a fascist moron when they see one, and SYL associated with Reform sinks Reform.
Reform were Brexit were UKIP. Less than a decade. Perhaps the question is which party eclipses Reform and becomes the true alt-right populists?
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
At present though they have reached 20% from the 14% they got at the general election but those net gains have mainly been from 2024 Labour voters many of whom voted for Boris in 2019. 2024 Tory voters who voted for Rishi seem immune to Farage's charms and are sticking with Kemi. Of course most of the Boris and Truss loving Conservatives who hated Rishi voted for Farage last July anyway
If we haven't had *that* enquiry then why didn't the Tories hold one?
If the Phillips letter is bad then why is the Solloway letter good?
If its practically criminal for Labour to not have acted in 6 months then why is is ok that the Tories didn't act for 14 years?
You mention the establishment cover up. That is the issue. So why are you and the desperate parts of the right trying to make this party political? You just look daft, and it does nothing to resolve the issue. We need grown up politics - not enough has been done, for a long time, by all governments. So now we reach across the Commons to Get This Done.
It's hard to see that - at least some of the reason for Labour's low vote share in GE '24 was due to the inevitability of victory and Sunak not being obviously evil. The Musk/Farage/Trump vibe would change all that.
Sorry.
I’d say the same for care costs. Kicking it into the long grass, effectively until after the next election, is shameful.
It works for me as I stick to the ‘following’ tab and my feed is stuff I am interested in and engage with.
And neither of you rank very high on that particular scale.
You will get outgunned for the NOTA vote by Reform.
https://nypost.com/2025/01/04/us-news/biden-to-present-george-soros-hillary-clinton-and-17-others-the-presidential-medal-of-freedom/
Although in many cases, the view that many people formed ages ago might well be the correct one.
This Musk thing feels different ish. A foreign wealthy media mogul trying to stir up British politics. Who'd does he think he is? Rupert Murdoch?
Shrewd politicians, punters and commentators (on the left and right) need to watch and figure it out. Will he burn out or is this for the long haul. Politics is volatile
when Boris became leader.
The main shift in 2024 was
2019 Conservative voters to Reform and Labour. Plus a few who voted Tory in 2019 to keep out Corbyn went LD in 2024 though Rishi won a few who had gone LD in 2019
But you went off the deep end last night, IMO, in a way that's pretty unusual for you.
It's not the worst thing in the world for a left wing leader to have privileged right wing establishment billionaire influencers ranting about them. Free publicity at least.
For now, watch and wait and see how Trump gets on in office.
His numbers almost perfectly correspond with delivery. If he delivers anything they’ll go back up.
Shecorns?? is a Labour staffer/troll/tim.. all similar to cheeks of the same arse
Both towns had real issues of social and racial division, of suspicion and segregation. I can get how this could go on under the radar - because the radar was crappy and had huge holes in the net. What I can't get is how the authorities were so dismissive. Police who actively disbelieved anything that poor girls said. Social workers who were paranoid about being seen as racist in a town screwed by racism.
The legal and law enforcement issue - traditionally the right - is just as key to this as the social work and councillors issue - traditionally the left. One side trying to blame exclusively the other is how we had this go on for so long. So I am less than amused with Tories denouncing Labour for Tory failings. It gets us nowhere.
But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
The fact is that the last five years have been some of the most turbulent in history, and no mainstream politician appears to have any answers to the severe problems facing most Western countries at the moment. The people want politicians who have solutions to the problems, rather than those who appear to be in it only to enrich themselves.
IMV: there was no overarching conspiracy; just a series of individuals and small groups of people who put their own careers and ease of work ahead of the kids' welfare. Dealing with the issue was too complex at the ground level (those dealing with the kids), and too complex for their bosses, and, if they got to know about it, for their boss's bosses.
The Three Monkeys Syndrome: I refuse to see the reality; I refuse to listen to the evil; I refuse to tell anyone about the evil.
Ignoring what was happening was easier than dealing with it. So it was not dealt with.
But I might be wrong about that...
I actually agree with the policies he’s introduced but I can’t imagine the political hit from the WFA was really worth it. He’d have been better to let fuel duty rise.
I think the changes he wants to make are good. But I’m still unclear what the end goal of it really is. And that’s a problem.
Like, he wants to change planning. I’m fully behind that and want more phone masts built. Lots more. But what does that make the country look like? I mean where does it take us?
So far it seems like we’re going to be basically back to where we were in 2010. That’s not a bad thing but I just don’t get the sense much is really going to change.
Musky Social Media... rather less so. So he can say whatever he likes.
From many conversations recently, it seems clear to me that a great (and growing) number of people are so disillusioned with the last two decades of governance that they’ll now consider tipping over the table and voting for Reform. Not as a protest but with the goal of a total break on our political direction.
4 years a long time. But that cuts both ways. Another 4 years of this government will feel like 14 for a lot of people.
I’m sure I’ll get told off for being silly by the usuals that have little to say other than “Musk is a fascist”. But it should be clear that along with the likely maximum length of this parliament, his money and prestige offers Farage the opportunity to professionalise his party and bring in an advisory team and candidates list quite different to the past.
Wouldn’t be surprised to start seeing Reform poll with highest vote share before long. That’s going to have consequences for both main party leaders if it happens.