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This poll feels like a reflection of name recognition – politicalbetting.com

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  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779
    HYUFD said:

    Yes we did it too last Spring and did queue but not for too long, Starmer just put his kids on it anyway and got driven down the hill by car
    Maderia is a lovely holiday destination
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054
    ohnotnow said:

    Or just spill something on your way out for lunch and not be especially thorough about cleaning it. I remember walking past two bio-med professors in the run-up to lockdown and them both laughing about "Wouldn't surprise me - that lab is a total sh*t-show".
    Again, the Institute and the wet market are on opposite sides of a big city. If somebody went out to lunch after spilling something, you would see the pandemic beginning near the lab. We don’t. We see the pandemic beginning at the market.

    Also, if someone had spilt something, you’d see the first human infections being genomically identical, whereas we see the first human infections being more diverse, which is consistent instead with a poll of infected animals in the wet market.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,103

    @Cyclefree is very well respected on here and provides informative threads and options

    She is also fiercely defensive of women and right to be so

    With respect, I cannot say the same about yourself
    I say it as I find it. I choose who I respect. Following the crowd is for the feeble minded.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240
    edited January 2
    Taz said:

    Not me.

    When we went, after a nice journey up in a cable car got out, saw the queue, we turned around and went back down and wandered around Funchal. Not much there. A statue of Christiano Ronaldo, wild growing bananas and some gardens and that’s it.

    Madeira is perfect for SKS. It’s rather dull.
    Not just a statue but a Ronaldo museum.

    A cathedral too and some beautiful hillside landscapes outside the city. Other than Ronaldo fans, Madeira is basically the most popular island in the region for pensioners for a reason (youngsters and party animals tend to go to Gran Canaria and families to Lanzarote)
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,975
    Not all of us are on here 24 7.

    I am sure you enjoyed reading again how Starmer treats the plebs.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,483
    HYUFD said:

    Not just a statue but a Ronaldo museum.

    A cathedral too and some beautiful hillside landscapes outside the city. Other than Ronaldo fans, Madeira is basically the most popular island in the Canary Islands for pensioners for a reason (youngsters and party animals tend to go to Gran Canaria and families to Lanzarote)
    Er... Madeira is nowhere near the Canary Islands and is in a different country
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    Taz said:

    Mighty Mike over Chris Dobey 6-1.

    Next up Luke the Nuke v Bullet Bunting

    I'm sure I took 2/1 against Luke but can't find the bet anywhere. Story of my punting life.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,071
    He didn’t have the gumption to arrange a placeholder for him while he enjoyed the very pleasant gardens and sights?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    Yes we did it too last Spring and did queue but not for too long, Starmer just put his kids on it anyway and got driven down the hill by car
    He'd clearly had enough of high speed downhill descents with his recent approval ratings.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,975
    edited January 2
    HYUFD said:

    Yes we did it too last Spring and did queue but not for too long, Starmer just put his kids on it anyway and got driven down the hill by car
    Yv
    Madeira has one big problem. The Airport. You need strong nerves on a windy day.. sometimes you end up being landed in Portugal and waiting for calmer days....
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    And doubtless such simple Whatabouttery lies behind the "rationale" for Harris having another pop in 4 years time.

    But here's the problem: he's a winner, and she's not.
    Trump has won two elections in his life: 2016 and 2024 Presidential elections. And lost one: 2020.

    Harris won District Attorney in 2002, a second term in 2007, California Attorney General in 2010, re-elected 2014. She then won the Senate seat in 2016. She then began a presidential campaign in 2020, pulled out, got made the VP nom, and won as part of the ticket with Biden in 2020. She lost in 2024.

    Looks to me that Harris has a better win rate than Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,240

    Er... Madeira is nowhere near the Canary Islands and is in a different country
    Well technically it isn't but for British tourists they are basically the same thing, sunny islands off the North African coast
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,483

    Again, the Institute and the wet market are on opposite sides of a big city. If somebody went out to lunch after spilling something, you would see the pandemic beginning near the lab. We don’t. We see the pandemic beginning at the market.

    Also, if someone had spilt something, you’d see the first human infections being genomically identical, whereas we see the first human infections being more diverse, which is consistent instead with a poll of infected animals in the wet market.
    I presume lab workers shopped at the wet market along with everyone else, so lab worker with a snotty nose goes shopping...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    Not really. Running a dreadful candidate twice is clearly barking but the fury and disbelief that she lost is still all too readily apparent. Her popularity within the party just adds to that, because it perfectly exemplifies the dichotomy between those who get it and the ignorant electorate.

    As always for people like this @bondegezou is a fantastic yardstick, because he channels that perfectly.
    I’m not arguing the Dems should stand Harris again. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy of criticising putting up a candidate who lost the previous time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,407

    Yv
    Madeira has one big problem. The Airport. You need strong nerves on a windy day.. sometimes you end up being landed in Portugal and waiting for calmer days....
    Yeah, the airport is quite a wild ride, it took 3 attempts last time I went.

    They do have an emergency runway on nearby and much flatter Porto Santo.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Or Trump's own Truth Social. TSE posted a screenshot on the last thread which is where I saw it.
    So bullshit multiplied by bullshit 691 times?

    Why even read that?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,275

    Trump has won two elections in his life: 2016 and 2024 Presidential elections. And lost one: 2020.

    Harris won District Attorney in 2002, a second term in 2007, California Attorney General in 2010, re-elected 2014. She then won the Senate seat in 2016. She then began a presidential campaign in 2020, pulled out, got made the VP nom, and won as part of the ticket with Biden in 2020. She lost in 2024.

    Looks to me that Harris has a better win rate than Trump.
    So Harris is good at winning elections in San Francisco and California.

    Perhaps she should run for California Governor or San Francisco Mayor.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    A joke is only funny if it has some semblance of truth.
    What do you get if you cross a sheep and a kangaroo?

    A woolly jumper.

    This joke is funny, but has no semblance of truth as it is impossible to cross a sheep and a kangaroo.

    QED.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189

    Again, the Institute and the wet market are on opposite sides of a big city. If somebody went out to lunch after spilling something, you would see the pandemic beginning near the lab. We don’t. We see the pandemic beginning at the market.

    Also, if someone had spilt something, you’d see the first human infections being genomically identical, whereas we see the first human infections being more diverse, which is consistent instead with a poll of infected animals in the wet market.
    Is there a good reason why you continue to trumpet the location of 'the Institute', when the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control is 300 yards from the market?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779

    Yv
    Madeira has one big problem. The Airport. You need strong nerves on a windy day.. sometimes you end up being landed in Portugal and waiting for calmer days....
    Better by sea
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907
    Foxy said:

    its more than a trundle, I have done it a couple of times, and never had to queue.

    Its often done as part of a package, a bit like the fastpass at Disney, but I just took a taxi.

    Madeira is a lovely place, and their Carnival is the best in europe. It helps if you like walking, as there are fantastic views
    Funchal on New Years Eve was nice. The New Years celebrations were good fun. Aside from that it’s pleasant but not a lot to do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    Much depends on how far Trump managrs to piss off the MAGA base. Whilst they won't vote Harris in 2028, if she is proven right on how Trump would behave - and the disastrous consequences for blue-collar Americans - them staying home and Harris holding the voters she got in 2024 might well be enough.
    Well anything is possible.
    I’m just saying her current polling is very little guide to what it’s likely to be in three years’ time.

    And there are many other Democrats better placed to improve their position in that time.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907

    Trump has won two elections in his life: 2016 and 2024 Presidential elections. And lost one: 2020.

    Harris won District Attorney in 2002, a second term in 2007, California Attorney General in 2010, re-elected 2014. She then won the Senate seat in 2016. She then began a presidential campaign in 2020, pulled out, got made the VP nom, and won as part of the ticket with Biden in 2020. She lost in 2024.

    Looks to me that Harris has a better win rate than Trump.
    I’m sure Trump casts an envious glance at such an election winning colossus.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,071
    HYUFD said:

    Not just a statue but a Ronaldo museum.

    A cathedral too and some beautiful hillside landscapes outside the city. Other than Ronaldo fans, Madeira is basically the most popular island in the region for pensioners for a reason (youngsters and party animals tend to go to Gran Canaria and families to Lanzarote)
    He would have got more Guardian cred points if he’d gone to the Azores, says this volcano junkie.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,936
    Foxy said:

    its more than a trundle, I have done it a couple of times, and never had to queue.

    Its often done as part of a package, a bit like the fastpass at Disney, but I just took a taxi.

    Madeira is a lovely place, and their Carnival is the best in europe. It helps if you like walking, as there are fantastic views
    Walking in Madeira? That's a cake walk, Grommit

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,959
    HYUFD said:

    Well technically it isn't but for British tourists they are basically the same thing, sunny islands off the North African coast
    :smile: You're struggling there! Madeira is basically the most popular island in the Canary Islands But keep up the fight.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    Taz said:

    Probably due to his security. I wouldn’t begrudge him that.
    Hmm. I'm reminded of Blackadder.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    edited January 2

    What do you get if you cross a sheep and a kangaroo?

    A woolly jumper.

    This joke is funny, but has no semblance of truth as it is impossible to cross a sheep and a kangaroo.

    QED.
    Not if you do a bit of gene editing with Crispr it isn't.

    Anyway, wrong joke category. I should have said "The" joke, which should have been obvious.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,907
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047

    I hate to stick up for Sir Queue Skipper, but who waits 3 hours to trundle down a hill in a wicker basket?
    The pig that went to market?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,936

    A political question from tonight's Only Connect. What is the fourth in this sequence?

    1. Artist & MEP (2019-2022)
    2. Teacher/nurse & maths professor (2022-2022)
    -- I got it from the second clue
    3. Pharmacist & GP (2022-2024)


    Ans. Nurse & toolmaker (2024-) being the parental occupations of successive PMs.

    That was the easiest of all the puzzles

  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,537

    Better by sea
    A friend set off in his yacht to spend winter in the Caribbean. Got as far as Funchal and decided it was plenty good enough. Whether this reflects the superiority of Madeira over Antigua, or just the extra distance involved, I couldn't say.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,491

    I would actively encourage everyone to participate in the democratic process. And I think that democracy is safer and healthier the more people are involved to a greater extent.

    But I think there's also room for a principled abstentionism. If you genuinely don't know which way to vote, then there's a logic for leaving the decision to the collective will of your fellow citizens, and trusting their judgement.
    I haven't voted since 2010 now. Up to then I voted in every local , general and euro election. It is not a case for me of not knowing who to vote for but knowing that none of those on offer are worth voting for.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047

    Trump has won two elections in his life: 2016 and 2024 Presidential elections. And lost one: 2020.

    Harris won District Attorney in 2002, a second term in 2007, California Attorney General in 2010, re-elected 2014. She then won the Senate seat in 2016. She then began a presidential campaign in 2020, pulled out, got made the VP nom, and won as part of the ticket with Biden in 2020. She lost in 2024.

    Looks to me that Harris has a better win rate than Trump.
    I don't think that even you find that convincing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    OK, jumping into Leon mode here, he has called out your comments on the location of the lab (other side of the city) as a proven lie. You didn't reply to his rebuttal then - are you insisting that the lab was on the other side of the city?
    I don’t generally waste time rebutting Leon’s ravings. I’d be here all day.

    However, as you have asked politely, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the lab people generally people put forth as a putative source, is on the other side of the city to the wet market.

    There is another research building near the wet market that some lab theory enthusiasts leapt on as a solution to this problem to their theory. I try not to spend too much time considering what is in Leon’s mind, but I think that’s the place he was talking about. The only problem is that all the other parts of the theory then don’t work. That place wasn’t doing coronavirus research.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779
    HYUFD said:

    Well technically it isn't but for British tourists they are basically the same thing, sunny islands off the North African coast
    I don't think British tourists see Portuguese and Spanish islands as the same not least as they are 250 miles apart
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,959

    What do you get if you cross a sheep and a kangaroo?

    A woolly jumper.

    This joke is funny, but has no semblance of truth as it is impossible to cross a sheep and a kangaroo.

    QED.
    Q. How do you make an apple puff. A. Chase it round the garden
    That's not true either.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    HYUFD said:

    Yes clearly lots of PBers made best they could in tough winters with few luxuries and no central heating, including you BigG.

    Though we do seem to have gone a bit 4 Yorkshiremen this evening

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k
    We had a lovely old stone cottage on a farm land in the hills around Oxford. Gradually improved it. Still had the original interior doors - 6 oak planks, one across near the top and bottom and a diagonal to brace it. Complete with the original hand made wrought iron latches - like a garden gate latch. No heating system, and some of the electrics turned out to be paper insulated wire from before WWI.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    So Harris is good at winning elections in San Francisco and California.

    Perhaps she should run for California Governor or San Francisco Mayor.
    Governor is actually quite possible; SF already has a new mayor.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    Here's some evidence based corruption.

    Not dead Civets though, dead people:

    https://www.newsweek.com/china-thousands-corpses-smuggled-bone-graft-medical-health-scandal-1936276

    You think anyone would worry about selling a few animals on the side?

    [Note the lawyer who blew the whistle on it was un-personed by the Chinese government.]
    I mean, it’s not from a research lab and it’s not civets, but, yes, that is a horrendous story of corruption in China.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047

    I’m not arguing the Dems should stand Harris again. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy of criticising putting up a candidate who lost the previous time.
    No, there was no hypocrisy- although you were determined to try and contrived some.

    The analogy might work for you had Trump never won a primary or a general election, say he'd failed in both 2016 and 2020 and was still stuck up for 2024, but unfortunately for you that isn't the case and Harris has never won a primary or a general.

    Try choosing your battles or you will end up looking very silly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    Lab leaks have happened and caused disease outbreaks. Most notably, the 1977 flu might have been a Russian lab leak, although it’s very hard to determine for sure.

    Over time, the evidence that COVID-19 came from the wet market has increased. I might once have talked about the balance of probabilities. I wouldn’t now, in 2025. It is exceedingly unlikely that COVID-19 was anything other than a zoonotic event, just like the vast majority of novel disease pandemics.

    I think most epidemiologists would broadly agree with the point you make at the end. It doesn’t matter much. We should try to avoid it happening again. Such a thing could happen from a lab leak and we should take appropriate caution to avoid that. It could also happen from a zoonotic event and we should try to avoid that.

    It is unfortunate that a point of epidemiological investigation has, like so many other things, been captured by culture war nonsense, such that expressing a view on COVID-19 origins gets you labelled a paedophile enabler.
    Some other things

    1) Doing any kind of biological research around/by/with/or/from the Chinese government is immoral.
    2) The kind of labs we are talking about have very little real bio-security. Forget the movies with space suits and airlocks.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    Quick Google...


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009669/Did-coronavirus-originate-Chinese-government-laboratory.html

    I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest it's down to ignorance, but given that the Wuhan Centre For Disease Control was 300 yards from the wet market, do you see how your comments, particularly the bolded where you mention the Wuhan Institute of Virology (which I assume is on the other side of the city), look very much like a clumsy attempt to misdirect?
    Nearly all the lab leak theories presented were about the WIV, which specialises in coronaviruses. All the claims about NIH funding and EcoHealth, that you were going on about upthread, about WIV. They were not about the WCDC. This is not me misdirecting, this is you misdirecting.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,554
    Just want to say that for the majority of last year I was managing an investigation into alleged bribery and corruption in China.

    Secrets and lies. Secrets and lies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    Reportedly the Cybertruck bomber was a big Trump fan.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/las-vegas-cybertruck-bomber-matthew-livelsberger-was-a-trump-supporter-source/

    Also:
    Clark County, Nevada sheriff, Kevin McMahill told media that the driver suffered a gunshot wound to the head before the explosion...

    Strange times.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    How many times has Starmer rolled out the "security" line now? The football box at the Arsenal? The Madeira queue-jump? His son needing a secure place in a nice flat for revision?

    Misappropriating Oscar Wilde: to have a security need once might be considered a reasonable necessity, to do it thrice seems like a go-to-excuse for enjoying the fruits of office.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    I don’t generally waste time rebutting Leon’s ravings. I’d be here all day.

    However, as you have asked politely, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the lab people generally people put forth as a putative source, is on the other side of the city to the wet market.

    There is another research building near the wet market that some lab theory enthusiasts leapt on as a solution to this problem to their theory. I try not to spend too much time considering what is in Leon’s mind, but I think that’s the place he was talking about. The only problem is that all the other parts of the theory then don’t work. That place wasn’t doing coronavirus research.
    Just passing by. Checked your endless screed of effete fibs. Max has identified you correctly as a liar, a fraud and a pathetic shill. I didn't feel a need to add to it

    However this one lie, that you just made, stood out as so utterly blatant I had to step in

    "That place [the Wuhan CDC] wasn’t doing coronavirus research"

    It was

    "At least two institutions in Wuhan work on coronaviruses: the Wuhan CDC and the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV). The WIV houses several laboratory complexes"

    The Wuhan CDC kept bats, it was part of the overall work on coronaviruses, and it was 300 yards from the market, and it functioned at a BSL-2 safety level, regarded as "Wild West" by Jeremy Farrar, then of the Wellcome Institute


    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/SIPRIYB21c12sI.pdf

    This is a paper that strrves to prove Zoonosis in 2021. But they admit the truth, unlike you

    And now I shall step out again. Busy times! Happy New Year to all PBers
  • I mean, it’s not from a research lab and it’s not civets, but, yes, that is a horrendous story of corruption in China.
    A: We know for a fact that corruption is possible in China.

    B: We know for a fact that the government covers it up to save face.

    C: We know for a fact that the government has done its utmost to save face over Covid19's origins.

    Yet you still maintain that corruption here is implausible/impossible?

    Ruling out corruption as an option is utterly insane. We both know it happens, and we know its covered up.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054
    .

    Some other things

    1) Doing any kind of biological research around/by/with/or/from the Chinese government is immoral.
    2) The kind of labs we are talking about have very little real bio-security. Forget the movies with space suits and airlocks.
    (1) Maybe. I don’t know. It’s tangential to the question at hand.

    (2) The kind of labs we’re talking about have very stringent bio-security.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881
    Leon said:

    Just passing by. Checked your endless screed of effete fibs. Max has identified you correctly as a liar, a fraud and a pathetic shill. I didn't feel a need to add to it

    However this one lie, that you just made, stood out as so utterly blatant I had to step in

    "That place [the Wuhan CDC] wasn’t doing coronavirus research"

    It was

    "At least two institutions in Wuhan work on coronaviruses: the Wuhan CDC and the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV). The WIV houses several laboratory complexes"

    The Wuhan CDC kept bats, it was part of the overall work on coronaviruses, and it was 300 yards from the market, and it functioned at a BSL-2 safety level, regarded as "Wild West" by Jeremy Farrar, then of the Wellcome Institute


    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/SIPRIYB21c12sI.pdf

    This is a paper that strrves to prove Zoonosis in 2021. But they admit the truth, unlike you

    And now I shall step out again. Busy times! Happy New Year to all PBers
    hahahah you flagged it
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,318
    Leon said:

    Just passing by. Checked your endless screed of effete fibs. Max has identified you correctly as a liar, a fraud and a pathetic shill. I didn't feel a need to add to it

    However this one lie, that you just made, stood out as so utterly blatant I had to step in

    "That place [the Wuhan CDC] wasn’t doing coronavirus research"

    It was

    "At least two institutions in Wuhan work on coronaviruses: the Wuhan CDC and the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV). The WIV houses several laboratory complexes"

    The Wuhan CDC kept bats, it was part of the overall work on coronaviruses, and it was 300 yards from the market, and it functioned at a BSL-2 safety level, regarded as "Wild West" by Jeremy Farrar, then of the Wellcome Institute


    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/SIPRIYB21c12sI.pdf

    This is a paper that strrves to prove Zoonosis in 2021. But they admit the truth, unlike you

    And now I shall step out again. Busy times! Happy New Year to all PBers
    Ok who looked in the mirror and said Leon, Leon, Leon?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,103
    Cyclefree said:

    Don't be so hard on yourself.
    Look at your 'likes'. Only JohnO slightly disproves the rule but those on the right are much more likely to 'like' personally insulting posts than those on the left. That's how it is on here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    edited January 2

    Nearly all the lab leak theories presented were about the WIV, which specialises in coronaviruses. All the claims about NIH funding and EcoHealth, that you were going on about upthread, about WIV. They were not about the WCDC. This is not me misdirecting, this is you misdirecting.
    It most certainly isn't me misdirecting - I only dimly remembered this argument from last time, and pulled up the report. According to the authors of the source of the above story, the WCDC was studing coronaviruses, and had 605 live bats.

    However, I'm glad you've at least addressed the question.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155
    MaxPB said:

    Because it was people like you who covered it up. Can you honestly, really honestly, look back and say that you would have been a whistle blower had you seen what was going on? This is your ilk that has covered it up in the name of "community relations" and they looked the other way or in some cases prosecuted parents who wanted their children out of the hands of these rapists. I don't believe, from the posts you have written on here, that you would have been a whistle blower. In fact I believe you would have been an active participant in the cover up and justified it as being a "lesser evil" than "racists" targeting Muslims who perpetrated this evil.
    Unpleasant, unjustified nasty
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    .

    (1) Maybe. I don’t know. It’s tangential to the question at hand.

    (2) The kind of labs we’re talking about have very stringent bio-security.
    "Although Sir Jeremy has publicly backed the professionalism of Chinese researchers, in emails he privately admitted that research in Wuhan was like the "Wild West"."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/13/sir-jeremy-farrar-appointed-who-chief-scientist-despite-covid/

    Weird that despite his grave and private misgivings about Wuhan, he publicly supported the zoonodis theory, signed the now discredited Lancet Letter, and then got appointed head of WHO. How the heck does that happen?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    How many times has Starmer rolled out the "security" line now? The football box at the Arsenal? The Madeira queue-jump? His son needing a secure place in a nice flat for revision?

    Misappropriating Oscar Wilde: to have a security need once might be considered a reasonable necessity, to do it thrice seems like a go-to-excuse for enjoying the fruits of office.

    Err, security for a head of state is pretty pointless if it can only be used once. PB has gone madder than normal in 2025!
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,743
    Leon said:

    hahahah you flagged it
    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.
  • It most certainly isn't me misdirecting - I only dimly remembered this argument from last time, and pulled up the report. According to the authors of the source of the above story, the WCDC was studing coronaviruses, and had 605 live bats.

    However, I'm glad you've at least addressed the question.
    I'm curious too what the role of the Wuhan CDC would be? Eg is it comparable to America's CDC in getting called in to deal with novel viruses when people get sick?

    If so it seems to me, just making it up, that an entirely plausible chain of events (especially given how contagious covid19 was) could be: someone in WIV gets sick -> sick individual(s) gets dealt with by Wuhan CDC -> virus escapes CDC to neighbouring market meters away -> the rest is history.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,491
    rcs1000 said:

    Here's the thing.

    The bar for criminal prosecution is a high one, and (with few relatively few exceptions) requires mens rea - i.e. a guilty mind.

    Inaction - even when it has terrible consequences - is very rarely a criminal offence.

    Now there may be individuals in the care service or the council in Rotherham and Rochdale whose behaviour stepped over the line. But those people are inevitably low level, and were almost certainly carrying out the wishes of their bosses.

    So you have a fundamental problem: the instructions (i.e. to care about "community relations" above all else) came from people without specific knowledge, and who therefore almost certainly have a defence. While those who behaviour stepped over the line are junior, and who were "just following orders".

    There is an easier case to be made for criminal behaviour and charges to be brought in the Post Office case, because a large number of the legal profession chose to deliberately withhold evidence from the defence in court cases, to the extent that it would come under the heading of perverting the course of justice.
    I was in particular minded of the one who destroyed all the records for the investigator for the Jay report and was quite happy and smug to tell the investigator so....if that is not perversion of the course of justice I don't know what is
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.
    Er, that was my first comment since before Christmas, you dolt. I am really fucking busy on about seventy eight projects, and don't have time for PB. This is a rare visit, I am going to step away again in a minute

    But if the site is become virulent of late - is it? - that ain't me, bro. Not been here. FWIW, to me, dropping in, PB seems quite normal, @bondegezou lying, @MaxPB and @Cyclefree talking sense, @Cookie making nicely lyrical poetic posts about the North with attached photos, @roger being @roger, @rcs1000 being geeky, @HYUFD being adamantine, PB is what it is, and all is well with the world
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197

    Some other things

    1) Doing any kind of biological research around/by/with/or/from the Chinese government is immoral.
    2) The kind of labs we are talking about have very little real bio-security. Forget the movies with space suits and airlocks.
    That ship long sailed.

    China probably leads the US in some areas of biological research. Over the next decade - unless the two countries go to full scale trade war, and such research collaborations are banned - US pharma will get a significant percentage of their new drugs from China.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189

    I'm curious too what the role of the Wuhan CDC would be? Eg is it comparable to America's CDC in getting called in to deal with novel viruses when people get sick?

    If so it seems to me, just making it up, that an entirely plausible chain of events (especially given how contagious covid19 was) could be: someone in WIV gets sick -> sick individual(s) gets dealt with by Wuhan CDC -> virus escapes CDC to neighbouring market meters away -> the rest is history.
    Given that it seems to have been a scabby diseased bat hotel, I certainly hope its staff wasn't being called on to control any real disease outbreaks. Like getting a pyromaniac to attend house fires.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779
    edited January 2

    hahahah you flagged it
    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.

    Blockquote not working but I would say the following


    I do not like any poster seeking the banning of another or indeed others

    This site is moderated appropriately and mindful of legalities

    If you so dislike a post or poster just move on to the next post
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    Ok who looked in the mirror and said Leon, Leon, Leon?
    Leon, probably.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    edited January 2
    ....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641

    How many times has Starmer rolled out the "security" line now? The football box at the Arsenal? The Madeira queue-jump? His son needing a secure place in a nice flat for revision?

    Misappropriating Oscar Wilde: to have a security need once might be considered a reasonable necessity, to do it thrice seems like a go-to-excuse for enjoying the fruits of office.

    Starmer is a lawyer not a politician. As such, he asks is a thing legal? rather than is it politic?

    But as I still believe Starmer will have resigned before the next election, I am not too fussed about what Madeiragate will do for his chances.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,740
    edited January 2

    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.
    I think some of the earlier comments about bondegezou deserve to be flagged too, lest PB end up in some legal jeopardy.

    (I couldn't really follow it but it was all a bit odd)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606

    We had a lovely old stone cottage on a farm land in the hills around Oxford. Gradually improved it. Still had the original interior doors - 6 oak planks, one across near the top and bottom and a diagonal to brace it. Complete with the original hand made wrought iron latches - like a garden gate latch. No heating system, and some of the electrics turned out to be paper insulated wire from before WWI.
    Stonesfield "Slate" roof?

    Friends of ours had a similar old house, in Cumnor I think it was.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    A: We know for a fact that corruption is possible in China.

    B: We know for a fact that the government covers it up to save face.

    C: We know for a fact that the government has done its utmost to save face over Covid19's origins.

    Yet you still maintain that corruption here is implausible/impossible?

    Ruling out corruption as an option is utterly insane. We both know it happens, and we know its covered up.
    I have not said that corruption is impossible. What I am saying is that the evidence from the early genomic variation in human cases, from the pattern of early human cases and from environmental DNA samples is that the virus came from the wet market. That’s clear.

    So, how did the virus get to the wet market? We don’t know. It’s probably impossible to ever know for certain. The obvious likely route is that the wet market got animals from the wild and some wild-caught animal brought it in.

    Lab leak theory enthusiasts began by claiming that the coincidence of the outbreak starting in Wuhan, which also houses the country’s premier research institute that studies coronaviruses, was too much to believe, ergo it came from the WIV. There were claims of early cases being near the WIV (debunked) and of WIV staff being mysteriously ill (debunked). Now it has become clear that the pandemic began in the market, some have tried to rescue the lab leak theory with a new 2-stage, Occam’s-razor-defying theory: it went from a lab leak to the wet market animals and then onwards. This looks like an attempt to rescue a losing argument rather than any sort of sensible analysis of probabilities.

    So, lab leak theory v. 2: it goes from WIV to the wet market. Big problem there is that they are nowhere near each other. So, some lab leak enthusiasts either stick with all of their theories about the WIV, Fauci being evil, blah blah, and just ignore the problem. A different faction have latched on to a different research building, even though that breaks all the other parts of the theory about the WIV.

    I’m afraid it’s getting to my bed time now I’m back at work. If you have further questions, I’ll try to address them tomorrow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    Leon, probably.
    Not me dood, I am genuinely super busy, maybe busier than I have ever been. This is good, lots of work, and I enjoy it, and there is travel coming up, but I sincerely do not have time for long PB arguments. This is my first chill moment in many days, when I haven't been sneezing (I had a lurgy, gone now, DV) or furiously knapping and scribbling

    Indeed, I need an early night, such is the scale of my toil!

    Nightynight all
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779

    ....

    Blockquote not working as I didn't flag it nor would I ever flag a post
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    Err, security for a head of state is pretty pointless if it can only be used once. PB has gone madder than normal in 2025!
    God forbid he ever slipped his security to vanish off to meet the KGB in an Italian Villa and turned up drunk and dishevelled in a deserted Railway Station
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,606
    HYUFD said:

    I mean farmers who own their farms
    Most unlike you not to be solicitous for the wealthy, and in your view ideally aristocratic, landowner.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,881

    I have not said that corruption is impossible. What I am saying is that the evidence from the early genomic variation in human cases, from the pattern of early human cases and from environmental DNA samples is that the virus came from the wet market. That’s clear.

    So, how did the virus get to the wet market? We don’t know. It’s probably impossible to ever know for certain. The obvious likely route is that the wet market got animals from the wild and some wild-caught animal brought it in.

    Lab leak theory enthusiasts began by claiming that the coincidence of the outbreak starting in Wuhan, which also houses the country’s premier research institute that studies coronaviruses, was too much to believe, ergo it came from the WIV. There were claims of early cases being near the WIV (debunked) and of WIV staff being mysteriously ill (debunked). Now it has become clear that the pandemic began in the market, some have tried to rescue the lab leak theory with a new 2-stage, Occam’s-razor-defying theory: it went from a lab leak to the wet market animals and then onwards. This looks like an attempt to rescue a losing argument rather than any sort of sensible analysis of probabilities.

    So, lab leak theory v. 2: it goes from WIV to the wet market. Big problem there is that they are nowhere near each other. So, some lab leak enthusiasts either stick with all of their theories about the WIV, Fauci being evil, blah blah, and just ignore the problem. A different faction have latched on to a different research building, even though that breaks all the other parts of the theory about the WIV.

    I’m afraid it’s getting to my bed time now I’m back at work. If you have further questions, I’ll try to address them tomorrow.
    You are a pitiful, cowardly liar. And we've proved your lies on here, today

    Goodnight
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,376

    A friend set off in his yacht to spend winter in the Caribbean. Got as far as Funchal and decided it was plenty good enough. Whether this reflects the superiority of Madeira over Antigua, or just the extra distance involved, I couldn't say.
    Other beautiful portuguese territories are available further out, of course: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    Sara Sharif’s dad ‘has neck sliced open with tuna tin lid by lag in prison attack’ which has left him fighting for life
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32571000/sara-sharif-killer-dad-attacked-tuna-tin-prison/

    In the least surprising news of 2025, Sara Sharif's murderer has been attacked in prison. One is not sympathetic but the state ought to keep inmates safe, which means safe from each other.

    By coincidence, Rory Stewart spoke of having seen this of key in the start/end of year The Rest is Politics (spoilers: Labour should stop offending groups with civil service-suggested policies; Ed Davey should find a serious purpose for the LibDems (is a return for the newly jobless Nick Clegg on the cards?); Kemi should own and move on from the previous government's actions).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwBO8nrzCt8
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,196

    Sara Sharif’s dad ‘has neck sliced open with tuna tin lid by lag in prison attack’ which has left him fighting for life
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32571000/sara-sharif-killer-dad-attacked-tuna-tin-prison/

    In the least surprising news of 2025, Sara Sharif's murderer has been attacked in prison. One is not sympathetic but the state ought to keep inmates safe, which means safe from each other.

    By coincidence, Rory Stewart spoke of having seen this of key in the start/end of year The Rest is Politics (spoilers: Labour should stop offending groups with civil service-suggested policies; Ed Davey should find a serious purpose for the LibDems (is a return for the newly jobless Nick Clegg on the cards?); Kemi should own and move on from the previous government's actions).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwBO8nrzCt8

    Somehow I suspect the Tories aren't likely to take advice from Campbell that they should spend more time taking ownership and apologising for the current state of the country :-)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461

    .

    (1) Maybe. I don’t know. It’s tangential to the question at hand.

    (2) The kind of labs we’re talking about have very stringent bio-security.
    What actual level of biosecurity? 2 is “run it like a sane chemistry lab - nasties in the fume cupboard, and no sandwiches in the fridges.”

    It’s not Project Wildfire.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,743
    edited January 2

    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.
    I do not like any poster seeking the banning of another or indeed others

    This site is moderated appropriately and mindful of legalities

    If you so dislike a post or poster just move on to the next post


    As the site has survived for so long the moderators must be on to something. My perception is the disagreements are becoming more visceral and the posters noticeably angrier. I'm not sure the moderators will want to, but, IMO to coddle posters who just rage at others is to allow the forum to devolve and then majority will leave.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,907
    Welcome back Leon. Thought you'd left the site for good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,990
    Barnesian said:

    Q. How do you make an apple puff. A. Chase it round the garden
    That's not true either.
    And who ever heard of "shark-infested custard"?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,376
    Andy_JS said:

    Welcome back Leon. Thought you'd left the site for good.

    Leon was banned by Scrooge for showing too much Christmas cheer.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,537

    Yv
    Madeira has one big problem. The Airport. You need strong nerves on a windy day.. sometimes you end up being landed in Portugal and waiting for calmer days....
    To the best of my knowledge Funchal has never seen a major prang, in spite of the cliff six inches from your wing-tip. Unlike the more commodious Tenerife which is the current world record holder (583). I doubt that will ever be beaten, but if it were my money would be on San Francisco, with two pairs of active runways at right-angles to each other. The more you think about foreign airports the more you dream about a staycation.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    Starmer is a lawyer not a politician. As such, he asks is a thing legal? rather than is it politic?

    But as I still believe Starmer will have resigned before the next election, I am not too fussed about what Madeiragate will do for his chances.
    God forbid he gets in a sledge on wheels, goes 50 yards until he's out of sight and then gets out and back in to his Ministerial Car dressed on and old shirt, tight shorts knee length socks and dress shoes
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,563
    edited January 2
    ...

    I flagged it. You're being an antagonistic prig. The site is becoming virulent and most of the nasties need to stop or leave.


    You keep pleading that you don't flag posts yet you have now admitted to flagging a post that was simply a post you disagreed with. It was not a post worthy of a flag. And if you are going to defend yourself by claiming the poster was nasty to Leon, have you ever seen any of Leon's posts after he's had an early start at Happy Hour?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,643

    I do not like any poster seeking the banning of another or indeed others

    This site is moderated appropriately and mindful of legalities

    If you so dislike a post or poster just move on to the next post
    As the site has survived for so long the moderators must be on to something. My perception is the disagreements are becoming more visceral and the posters noticeably angrier. I'm not sure the moderators will want to, but, IMO to coddle posters who just rage at others is to allow the forum to devolve and then majority will leave.


    To be fair to the site I've not noticed posters being angrier than usual or angrier than elsewhere. It's still a site where an uncommitted middle exists who back people up against unbalanced attacks.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,643

    As the site has survived for so long the moderators must be on to something. My perception is the disagreements are becoming more visceral and the posters noticeably angrier. I'm not sure the moderators will want to, but, IMO to coddle posters who just rage at others is to allow the forum to devolve and then majority will leave.
    To be fair to the site I've not noticed posters being angrier than usual or angrier than elsewhere. It's still a site where an uncommitted middle exists who back people up against unbalanced attacks.


    (I messed up the quotes in that post - it was from Nick Palmer rather than Alex)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,672
    edited January 2


    As the site has survived for so long the moderators must be on to something. My perception is the disagreements are becoming more visceral and the posters noticeably angrier. I'm not sure the moderators will want to, but, IMO to coddle posters who just rage at others is to allow the forum to devolve and then majority will leave.

    The change is because before the election there was fairly wide agreement that the government was crap and most right/centre right people accepted it, now with Labour in power the government is just as bad if not worse and those on the left don't want to admit it when we on the right point it out. They're in a constant state of denial about how shit Labour are and the lack of acceptance around it has made PB more combative and it will remain that way until they accept it.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,537
    carnforth said:

    Leon was banned by Scrooge for showing too much Christmas cheer.
    @Leon's banishment, despair and reconciliation is the whole Christmas story in miniature.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,071
    Barnesian said:

    Q. How do you make an apple puff. A. Chase it round the garden
    That's not true either.
    OTOH, how do you make a Venetian blind? Stick your fingers in his eyes is absolutely true.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,743
    edited January 2


    You keep pleading that you don't flag posts yet you have now admitted to flagging a post that was simply a post you disagreed with. It was not a post worthy of a flag. And if you are going to defend yourself by claiming the poster was nasty to Leon, have you ever seen any of Leon's posts after he's had an early start at Happy Hour?

    The quotes are all ballsed.... G is not to blame.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 849
    pm215 said:

    Somehow I suspect the Tories aren't likely to take advice from Campbell that they should spend more time taking ownership and apologising for the current state of the country :-)
    I hadn't seen the news that Clegg had lost his highly remunerated position running the corporate whitewash for a company that has monetised teen suicide and hate speech, to name a few of its many sins.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779

    The quotes are all ballsed.... G is not to blame.
    Thanks @MightyAlex and @Mexicanpete owes me an apology as I have not nor would I at anytime flag anyone
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,563

    The quotes are all ballsed.... G is not to blame.
    I can only apologise to G.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482

    Again, the Institute and the wet market are on opposite sides of a big city. If somebody went out to lunch after spilling something, you would see the pandemic beginning near the lab. We don’t. We see the pandemic beginning at the market.

    Also, if someone had spilt something, you’d see the first human infections being genomically identical, whereas we see the first human infections being more diverse, which is consistent instead with a poll of infected animals in the wet market.
    I guess no-one can take a light-hearted comment on this subject.
  • To the best of my knowledge Funchal has never seen a major prang, in spite of the cliff six inches from your wing-tip. Unlike the more commodious Tenerife which is the current world record holder (583). I doubt that will ever be beaten, but if it were my money would be on San Francisco, with two pairs of active runways at right-angles to each other. The more you think about foreign airports the more you dream about a staycation.
    Here's a link to the notorious Funchal Airport Disaster of 1977.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAP_Flight_425

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,779

    God forbid he gets in a sledge on wheels, goes 50 yards until he's out of sight and then gets out and back in to his Ministerial Car dressed on and old shirt, tight shorts knee length socks and dress shoes
    He didn't go on the sled, his children did, and he collected them at the bottom

    To be honest there is so much Starmer is in trouble on but this is not one
This discussion has been closed.