It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
It's more that the age structure as a determinant of voting is much stronger here than either other countries, or indeed of our own a couple of decades back. Support for all parties there is more evenly spread across the ages.
Also the support for the hard right in Europe can be quite exagerrated. The reality is more subtle. Take this 2022 Politico article for example:
Just back from dinner. Fabulous restaurant, pretty decent wine too. I surmise that Keir avoided beheading any kittens live on air while enthusiastically singing la Marseillaise, and was therefore judged the clear winner of the thingy? Well done Keir.
I feel that this is an appropriate moment to offer a verse in his honour, but am struggling with booze-induced writer's block. I can practically feel your disappointment. But such is life.
Donkey lovers don't Meet kittens with katanas In our multiverse.
Labour v Tory Jaded voters remember Brenda from Bristol
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
Here is my take. Thatcher and Major were rooted in reality. They understood the situation and proposed a route through it. Frankly, same with Blair. All partially. Remember, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked". Economy was broken by my predecessor, I took action which was painful but look at the results.
Sunak talks the talk - I did Furlough. But the problem is that h isn't rooted in reality. Listen to him tonight. In denial about tax. In denial about migration. In denial about inflation.
Your party are lying to people. Saying they have cut taxes as everyone sees taxes going up. Says they have got inflation under control as costs continue to go mad. Says migration is down as it rises. That waiting lists are down as they rise. That migration is reducing as it increases.
Compare and contrast with Farage. You may hate his solutions. His style. His dog-whistling, But it is all rooted in reality.
What happened to the Conservative Party? It isn't just this lot. Its Fuck Business. Its we've had enough of experts. Its denial of the impacts of the Brexit deal on farming and fishing and industry. Whatever happened to capitalism? Of investment? Of good money management?
I think this failing is really one of late-stage Cameronism.
If people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, instead of looking at the structural causes, you just have a policy called "Help to Buy" and ignore the 101 other things you're doing that make the problem worse.
This isn't something that began in 2016.
Basic economic illiteracy is the curse of the political classes. The failure to understand that prices are set by supply and demand, and that the only affect of a bung will be to move prices higher. Likewise, a failure to realise that high levels of stamp duty discourage trading down and result in the UK having both a housing crisis, and a record number of empty bedrooms.
That is a MASSIVE drop in Labour VI. I said a couple of days ago they will be nervous at the slide and was decried on here, they will be more than nervous now
No. They won’t. I decried you then and I decry you now. This is a PP reversion to the mean from the stupid LAB VI they had before.
Of course, dear. You’re not nervous at all
No, I’m not. Because I’m not a Labour supporter. I’m a former Lib Dem member who was roundly decried on here for quitting in a huff. Get off the board, the internet, in fact the fucking planet. Read what other people are saying rather than spending all day in a self congratulatory cock polishing session.
Er, I’ve been working hard all morning making flints and then spent the afternoon walking around the moody old Jewish quarters of Odessa, famed from Isaac Babel’s wonderful short stories
Now I sit here waiting for the first of Putin’s Persian drones and Iskander missiles; he always attacks at night, It’s like the African Savannah, the predators roam nocturnally, and we are the prey, the zebras and gazelles, eyes bright and wide and fearful, in the moonlight of the wilds
I can't help viewing this exchange in the light of the few minutes of debate that I just watched. Doug, the angry audience member. You with your impalpable waffle, impervious to the fact that three quarters of the people reading your words think you're swine.
You are Rishi Sunak.
No, I’m a professional artist and writer who is being paid to be in Odessa, magical Odessa, during a war! - and you are a fuck up stuck in a bedsit in drizzly Aberdeen, and that sends you - and several other PB-ers - absolutely insane with badly disguised jealousy. Which I gleefully stoke
Hey, I didn't say I was in the three quarters, Rishi. I'm actually a huge fan. I do wish you'd tone it down with romanticising war, though. I know after a few glasses you like lurching to rag-time tunes but it makes you seem like a bit of a ghoul.
Personal question. Do you have aspirations to be a writer? I sense that maybe you do
I rather liked your limerick earlier on, it’s hard to nail a limerick, and you did
There was a young man called Farage Who one day got locked in his garage He campaigned so hard But let down his guard And fell to an electoral barrage.
That’s….. quite bad. Needs work on the scansion. Sorry Sunil!
Did Farage once say his surname rhymes with garage, or is that an urban myth?
I hope it's true because where I come from we'd all have to start calling him Nigel Farridge, which suits him better I think.
There are places where garage rhymes with Farridge. Which is promising limerick material.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
Here is my take. Thatcher and Major were rooted in reality. They understood the situation and proposed a route through it. Frankly, same with Blair. All partially. Remember, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked". Economy was broken by my predecessor, I took action which was painful but look at the results.
Sunak talks the talk - I did Furlough. But the problem is that h isn't rooted in reality. Listen to him tonight. In denial about tax. In denial about migration. In denial about inflation.
Your party are lying to people. Saying they have cut taxes as everyone sees taxes going up. Says they have got inflation under control as costs continue to go mad. Says migration is down as it rises. That waiting lists are down as they rise. That migration is reducing as it increases.
Compare and contrast with Farage. You may hate his solutions. His style. His dog-whistling, But it is all rooted in reality.
What happened to the Conservative Party? It isn't just this lot. Its Fuck Business. Its we've had enough of experts. Its denial of the impacts of the Brexit deal on farming and fishing and industry. Whatever happened to capitalism? Of investment? Of good money management?
I think this failing is really one of late-stage Cameronism.
If people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, instead of looking at the structural causes, you just have a policy called "Help to Buy" and ignore the 101 other things you're doing that make the problem worse.
This isn't something that began in 2016.
Basic economic illiteracy is the curse of the political classes. The failure to understand that prices are set by supply and demand, and that the only affect of a bung will be to move prices higher. Likewise, a failure to realise that high levels of stamp duty discourage trading down and result in the UK having both a housing crisis, and a record number of empty bedrooms.
It's rather sad.
Do they not teach them any of the E on that PPE course they all seem to do?
Pensions,welfare and social security - National resilience strategy. Long term unemployment abolished – local authorities to employ people for civic improvement projects. State pension increased in sustainable metric based way not political reasons (note – means nothing). National insurance ID cards for all citizens.
Tech regulation – age control for smart phones for under 16s. banned in school. Strengthen online safety act. Advertising online gambling banned. Legal age to access pornography raised to 18 (note – it isn’t already?)
Sex based rights – sex segregation in sport, prisons, women’s refuges. Medical gatekeeping for trans.
Defence – 2.5% GDP. Overhaul defence procurement (note – everyone promises this). 10 days leave for reservists. Increase MI5 and NCA spending. Restore the offence of sedition and pursue inciters of terrorism.
Foreign affairs – No intervention unless direct threat to national security. Review all international treaties and withdraw if appropriate. Defence pact sought with Canada, NZ, and Aus. Forestall Chinese control of uk infrastructure. Get rid of 0.7% overseas aid. Supportive of Russia (note - says condemns ‘self defeating’ invasion and supports resistance, but pushes for cessation of military activity, ie allow Russia to hold its gains).
Crime and Justice – increase front line police resources significantly (note – no detail). Courts funding so justice no later than 3 months after charge. Sentences for repeat offenders to double. 3 strikes law for serious offences. Anyone released from prison given a job with a partner employer at minimum wage funded by government, if they have no job to go to. Deport and bar foreign cannibals. On the spot fines for cannabis use.
The 3 Strikes Law has been a monumental failure in California, as it (a) results in every defendant accused of a third crime going to trial (because why not?), and (b) Juries consistently finding such people Not Guilty when they are clearly guilty as sin, because they feel that the punishment is excessive for the crime.
Good luck on the Defence Pact after you've said that you will only do things when they are a direct threat to the UK. If I was New Zealand, I wouldn't feel very reassured by that combination.
Pensions,welfare and social security - National resilience strategy. Long term unemployment abolished – local authorities to employ people for civic improvement projects. State pension increased in sustainable metric based way not political reasons (note – means nothing). National insurance ID cards for all citizens.
Tech regulation – age control for smart phones for under 16s. banned in school. Strengthen online safety act. Advertising online gambling banned. Legal age to access pornography raised to 18 (note – it isn’t already?)
Sex based rights – sex segregation in sport, prisons, women’s refuges. Medical gatekeeping for trans.
Defence – 2.5% GDP. Overhaul defence procurement (note – everyone promises this). 10 days leave for reservists. Increase MI5 and NCA spending. Restore the offence of sedition and pursue inciters of terrorism.
Foreign affairs – No intervention unless direct threat to national security. Review all international treaties and withdraw if appropriate. Defence pact sought with Canada, NZ, and Aus. Forestall Chinese control of uk infrastructure. Get rid of 0.7% overseas aid. Supportive of Russia (note - says condemns ‘self defeating’ invasion and supports resistance, but pushes for cessation of military activity, ie allow Russia to hold its gains).
Crime and Justice – increase front line police resources significantly (note – no detail). Courts funding so justice no later than 3 months after charge. Sentences for repeat offenders to double. 3 strikes law for serious offences. Anyone released from prison given a job with a partner employer at minimum wage funded by government, if they have no job to go to. Deport and bar foreign cannibals. On the spot fines for cannabis use.
I would hope they're tough on domestic cannibals too.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
The riposte to that would be that constituency associations are the plaything of a small number of obsessives who aren't very reflective of the general population, or even average Tory voter.
That's true of party memberships full stop. Which is why we can predict with a fair degree of certainty that Sunak will be replaced by an extreme right wing lunatic spouting Trumpian nonsense.
If they had the final say alone, they don't which is why CCHQ stuffed safe seat selections for Tory seats the Tories are still likely to hold even on current polls with Sunak loyalists to keep the ERG candidate off the final 2. At the moment therefore I think Tory members will only get to choose between Tugendhat and Barclay or Cleverly (if Cleverly holds Braintree). Most Tory MPs left won't put Jenrick, Patel, Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 to the members
Hmmm... Well. We shall soon get to find out, shan't we?
The way the T20 WC is scheduled there is opportunity for some PM bag-carry level insider betting for Australia / Scotland.
England can lose to Oman and/or Namibia first and make the AUS v SCO game meaningless.
I know it’s a feature of 5 teams per group, and having England vs Scotland washed out, but England find themselves in a sticky situation after playing just one game. Can very easily see them not getting through, even with two wins in the next two games.
Immigration – resist open borders. Withdraw from ECHR et al. 50k net migration per annum. ‘Unsolicited’ asylum applications declined, only those dreeing major conflict zones. Foreign spouses must speak good English. 7 years residence for citizenship. Cut study visas by half.
Schools – new grammar schools. Free school meals to all kids during term time. Reinforce teaching of british history – teaching will be ‘balanced and honest’. Teachers must avoid advocacy of ‘unorthodox or sectarian agendas’
Higher education – reduce tuition fees to 7k. Costs above this met by government. Courses in key sectors with fees of zero. Cap loan repayments. Validate englishskills of international students before acceptance. Universities accommodate wide variety of viewpoints, no no-platforming.
Academic freedom – right to express ideas without being silenced. ‘get over it’ if you are offended. Challenge orthodoxies is a right (note – except for teachers in schools I guess?). right to be judged by your lecturers for ability, not how your views differ from theirs.
Culture media and sport – BBC funded from general taxation. Public funding of culture etc dependent on adherence to balance and free speech. All significant statues protected. 1% premier league tax to fund new pitches. All schools undertake mandatory daily mile run/walk/jog for pupils and staff (note – you what now?) unless extenuating circumstances.
The way the T20 WC is scheduled there is opportunity for some PM bag-carry level insider betting for Australia / Scotland.
England can lose to Oman and/or Namibia first and make the AUS v SCO game meaningless.
I know it’s a feature of 5 teams per group, and having England vs Scotland washed out, but England find themselves in a sticky situation after playing just one game. Can very easily see them not getting through, even with two wins in the next two games.
If your games against a couple of weak teams are washed out, you are going to be in big trouble. That's the nature of the tournament structure.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
Here is my take. Thatcher and Major were rooted in reality. They understood the situation and proposed a route through it. Frankly, same with Blair. All partially. Remember, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked". Economy was broken by my predecessor, I took action which was painful but look at the results.
Sunak talks the talk - I did Furlough. But the problem is that h isn't rooted in reality. Listen to him tonight. In denial about tax. In denial about migration. In denial about inflation.
Your party are lying to people. Saying they have cut taxes as everyone sees taxes going up. Says they have got inflation under control as costs continue to go mad. Says migration is down as it rises. That waiting lists are down as they rise. That migration is reducing as it increases.
Compare and contrast with Farage. You may hate his solutions. His style. His dog-whistling, But it is all rooted in reality.
What happened to the Conservative Party? It isn't just this lot. Its Fuck Business. Its we've had enough of experts. Its denial of the impacts of the Brexit deal on farming and fishing and industry. Whatever happened to capitalism? Of investment? Of good money management?
I think this failing is really one of late-stage Cameronism.
If people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, instead of looking at the structural causes, you just have a policy called "Help to Buy" and ignore the 101 other things you're doing that make the problem worse.
This isn't something that began in 2016.
Basic economic illiteracy is the curse of the political classes. The failure to understand that prices are set by supply and demand, and that the only affect of a bung will be to move prices higher. Likewise, a failure to realise that high levels of stamp duty discourage trading down and result in the UK having both a housing crisis, and a record number of empty bedrooms.
It's rather sad.
Do they not teach them any of the E on that PPE course they all seem to do?
It's like Chess Boxing, if you are good enough at one of them you can get away with being sub par in the other.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
Except Reform can't get elected to government anymore than their Canadian counterparts couldn't under FPTP without winning over Tory voters and indeed probably ultimately merging with the Tories as their Canadian counterparts did in 2003 to form today's Conservative Party of Canada.
Indeed it is perfectly possible if Rees Mogg ever became Tory leader he could sign off on a merger (or takeover depending on your point of view) with/by Farage's Reform Party the next day.
With PR though a Cameroon/Sunakite/Mayite/Majorite Tories could survive even on just 10% of the vote as they would still get 65 MPs and could consider whether to try and form a government with Reform or the LDs post election (as their counterpart centre right parties in Italy, Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Spain, Germany, New Zealand and Israel do deals with populist nationalist right and/or liberal parties post election under PR systems). Whereas with FPTP 10% gives the Tories 0 seats at all
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
The riposte to that would be that constituency associations are the plaything of a small number of obsessives who aren't very reflective of the general population, or even average Tory voter.
That's true of party memberships full stop. Which is why we can predict with a fair degree of certainty that Sunak will be replaced by an extreme right wing lunatic spouting Trumpian nonsense.
If they had the final say alone, they don't which is why CCHQ stuffed safe seat selections for Tory seats the Tories are still likely to hold even on current polls with Sunak loyalists to keep the ERG candidate off the final 2. At the moment therefore I think Tory members will only get to choose between Tugendhat and Barclay or Cleverly (if Cleverly holds Braintree). Most Tory MPs left won't put Jenrick, Patel, Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 to the members
They could do a lot worse than Cleverly. He’s probably not an ideological powerhouse and is prone to the odd gaffe but does the ‘seems like a decent fella’ thing well and I think has a pretty sharp wit and an affable demeanour.
One of Sunak’s worst traits is his tetchiness; he is easy to irritate and it shows. Cleverly gets the game and rolls with the punches.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
All young people in the UK have only ever known a right wing government. I'd be cautious and wait until 5 years of Starmer doesn't help their problems.
Pensions,welfare and social security - National resilience strategy. Long term unemployment abolished – local authorities to employ people for civic improvement projects. State pension increased in sustainable metric based way not political reasons (note – means nothing). National insurance ID cards for all citizens.
Tech regulation – age control for smart phones for under 16s. banned in school. Strengthen online safety act. Advertising online gambling banned. Legal age to access pornography raised to 18 (note – it isn’t already?)
Sex based rights – sex segregation in sport, prisons, women’s refuges. Medical gatekeeping for trans.
Defence – 2.5% GDP. Overhaul defence procurement (note – everyone promises this). 10 days leave for reservists. Increase MI5 and NCA spending. Restore the offence of sedition and pursue inciters of terrorism.
Foreign affairs – No intervention unless direct threat to national security. Review all international treaties and withdraw if appropriate. Defence pact sought with Canada, NZ, and Aus. Forestall Chinese control of uk infrastructure. Get rid of 0.7% overseas aid. Supportive of Russia (note - says condemns ‘self defeating’ invasion and supports resistance, but pushes for cessation of military activity, ie allow Russia to hold its gains).
Crime and Justice – increase front line police resources significantly (note – no detail). Courts funding so justice no later than 3 months after charge. Sentences for repeat offenders to double. 3 strikes law for serious offences. Anyone released from prison given a job with a partner employer at minimum wage funded by government, if they have no job to go to. Deport and bar foreign cannibals. On the spot fines for cannabis use.
I would hope they're tough on domestic cannibals too.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Sounds like both Starmer and Reeves are just what you are looking for.
Indeed (assuming Starmer wins) have we ever had a PM whose political career started later in life than Starmer?
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
Here is my take. Thatcher and Major were rooted in reality. They understood the situation and proposed a route through it. Frankly, same with Blair. All partially. Remember, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked". Economy was broken by my predecessor, I took action which was painful but look at the results.
Sunak talks the talk - I did Furlough. But the problem is that h isn't rooted in reality. Listen to him tonight. In denial about tax. In denial about migration. In denial about inflation.
Your party are lying to people. Saying they have cut taxes as everyone sees taxes going up. Says they have got inflation under control as costs continue to go mad. Says migration is down as it rises. That waiting lists are down as they rise. That migration is reducing as it increases.
Compare and contrast with Farage. You may hate his solutions. His style. His dog-whistling, But it is all rooted in reality.
What happened to the Conservative Party? It isn't just this lot. Its Fuck Business. Its we've had enough of experts. Its denial of the impacts of the Brexit deal on farming and fishing and industry. Whatever happened to capitalism? Of investment? Of good money management?
I think this failing is really one of late-stage Cameronism.
If people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, instead of looking at the structural causes, you just have a policy called "Help to Buy" and ignore the 101 other things you're doing that make the problem worse.
This isn't something that began in 2016.
Basic economic illiteracy is the curse of the political classes. The failure to understand that prices are set by supply and demand, and that the only affect of a bung will be to move prices higher. Likewise, a failure to realise that high levels of stamp duty discourage trading down and result in the UK having both a housing crisis, and a record number of empty bedrooms.
It's rather sad.
Do they not teach them any of the E on that PPE course they all seem to do?
Mostly how to keep ones wallet tidy? Though that's fast becoming a lost art!
Pensions,welfare and social security - National resilience strategy. Long term unemployment abolished – local authorities to employ people for civic improvement projects. State pension increased in sustainable metric based way not political reasons (note – means nothing). National insurance ID cards for all citizens.
Tech regulation – age control for smart phones for under 16s. banned in school. Strengthen online safety act. Advertising online gambling banned. Legal age to access pornography raised to 18 (note – it isn’t already?)
Sex based rights – sex segregation in sport, prisons, women’s refuges. Medical gatekeeping for trans.
Defence – 2.5% GDP. Overhaul defence procurement (note – everyone promises this). 10 days leave for reservists. Increase MI5 and NCA spending. Restore the offence of sedition and pursue inciters of terrorism.
Foreign affairs – No intervention unless direct threat to national security. Review all international treaties and withdraw if appropriate. Defence pact sought with Canada, NZ, and Aus. Forestall Chinese control of uk infrastructure. Get rid of 0.7% overseas aid. Supportive of Russia (note - says condemns ‘self defeating’ invasion and supports resistance, but pushes for cessation of military activity, ie allow Russia to hold its gains).
Crime and Justice – increase front line police resources significantly (note – no detail). Courts funding so justice no later than 3 months after charge. Sentences for repeat offenders to double. 3 strikes law for serious offences. Anyone released from prison given a job with a partner employer at minimum wage funded by government, if they have no job to go to. Deport and bar foreign cannibals. On the spot fines for cannabis use.
I would hope they're tough on domestic cannibals too.
Immigration – resist open borders. Withdraw from ECHR et al. 50k net migration per annum. ‘Unsolicited’ asylum applications declined, only those dreeing major conflict zones. Foreign spouses must speak good English. 7 years residence for citizenship. Cut study visas by half.
Schools – new grammar schools. Free school meals to all kids during term time. Reinforce teaching of british history – teaching will be ‘balanced and honest’. Teachers must avoid advocacy of ‘unorthodox or sectarian agendas’
Higher education – reduce tuition fees to 7k. Costs above this met by government. Courses in key sectors with fees of zero. Cap loan repayments. Validate englishskills of international students before acceptance. Universities accommodate wide variety of viewpoints, no no-platforming.
Academic freedom – right to express ideas without being silenced. ‘get over it’ if you are offended. Challenge orthodoxies is a right (note – except for teachers in schools I guess?). right to be judged by your lecturers for ability, not how your views differ from theirs.
Culture media and sport – BBC funded from general taxation. Public funding of culture etc dependent on adherence to balance and free speech. All significant statues protected. 1% premier league tax to fund new pitches. All schools undertake mandatory daily mile run/walk/jog for pupils and staff (note – you what now?) unless extenuating circumstances.
There are a lot of promises of spending money in that SDP manifesto.
There is nothing about how the UK can - you know - actually produce more than it consumes.
And with the population continuing to age, and with the inevitable pressures on government budgets, it goes straight in my "doesn't understand the issues" bin. But that's OK! Who wants to understand the issues?
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
All young people in the UK have only ever known a right wing government. I'd be cautious and wait until 5 years of Starmer doesn't help their problems.
That isn't true of the thirty and fortysomethings, who are nearly as strong for Labour.
I think that left wing criticism of Starmer to be at least as strong as right wing, and more so from the young.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
I had a quick look at the background of the pillock who put the £100 bet on. Bugger all real world experience, all local Welsh politics, followed by Westminister.
SDP Manifesto Part 4 Food, farming and countryside – subsidies to produce sustainable food. 90% farmland maintained for agriculture. Reverse decline in small farms and restore farm diversity. Reestablish land based colleges. Trade deals will not disadvantage farmers.
Fisheries – expand sector. Buy british policy. Impact of acquaculture reduced through research. Coastal communities regenerated through affordable housing, restriction on second homes etc.
Environment – national land use plan to optimize limited space. Support increase use of green belt, but not for housing. Focus on climate is fostering anxiety in children. Natural history GCSE focus on british wildlife and naturalists.
Animal welfare – ban export of non stun slaughter. Label if halal or kosher. Funding for alternatives to animal experimentation. Increase abattoir inspections.
Conclusion – all over the place. Anti immigrant, pro nationalization priorities. Detail in constitutional, local gov, and education areas make me think it was written by a student who is also a councillor.
Could be worse, no real figures or much detail outside of specific areas, bit nutty in places. Give it a D-. Would have given a D for simple design, but three blank pages at the back for no reason.
The way the T20 WC is scheduled there is opportunity for some PM bag-carry level insider betting for Australia / Scotland.
England can lose to Oman and/or Namibia first and make the AUS v SCO game meaningless.
I know it’s a feature of 5 teams per group, and having England vs Scotland washed out, but England find themselves in a sticky situation after playing just one game. Can very easily see them not getting through, even with two wins in the next two games.
If your games against a couple of weak teams are washed out, you are going to be in big trouble. That's the nature of the tournament structure.
How Cameron council cuts domino to the collapse of the tories and rise of reform
Cameron and Osborn do cuts to councils impacting social care funding Low council funding means social care wages are low so depend on cheap eu unskilled migrant labour to keep running Eu migrants dry up after brexit so boris and priti Patel let care orgs give out visas to unskilled migrants for care to make up numbers These visas lead to HUGE immigration numbers which is REALLY unpopular and where we are now
funny how it works out? Funny how no one is talking about social care given it caused all this !!
Immigration – resist open borders. Withdraw from ECHR et al. 50k net migration per annum. ‘Unsolicited’ asylum applications declined, only those dreeing major conflict zones. Foreign spouses must speak good English. 7 years residence for citizenship. Cut study visas by half.
Schools – new grammar schools. Free school meals to all kids during term time. Reinforce teaching of british history – teaching will be ‘balanced and honest’. Teachers must avoid advocacy of ‘unorthodox or sectarian agendas’
Higher education – reduce tuition fees to 7k. Costs above this met by government. Courses in key sectors with fees of zero. Cap loan repayments. Validate englishskills of international students before acceptance. Universities accommodate wide variety of viewpoints, no no-platforming.
Academic freedom – right to express ideas without being silenced. ‘get over it’ if you are offended. Challenge orthodoxies is a right (note – except for teachers in schools I guess?). right to be judged by your lecturers for ability, not how your views differ from theirs.
Culture media and sport – BBC funded from general taxation. Public funding of culture etc dependent on adherence to balance and free speech. All significant statues protected. 1% premier league tax to fund new pitches. All schools undertake mandatory daily mile run/walk/jog for pupils and staff (note – you what now?) unless extenuating circumstances.
There are a lot of promises of spending money in that SDP manifesto.
There is nothing about how the UK can - you know - actually produce more than it consumes.
And with the population continuing to age, and with the inevitable pressures on government budgets, it goes straight in my "doesn't understand the issues" bin. But that's OK! Who wants to understand the issues?
Can somebody explain with the SDP. Weren’t they an offshoot of Labour. I can’t see anyone from that party ever standing on those policies.
I think it shrivelled until it became a box of junk in one bloke's attic, and the corpse was then revived by a small group of people trying to create a kind of populist pseudo left/not left really thing. Someone on this site will probably understand the sequence of events better than I do.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
How Cameron council cuts domino to the collapse of the tories and rise of reform
Cameron and Osborn cut councils impacting social care funding Low council funding means social care wages are low so depend on cheap eu unskilled migrant labour to keep running Eu migrants dry up after brexit so boris and priti Patel let care orgs give out visas to unskilled migrants for care These visas lead to HUGE immigration numbers which is where we are now
funny how it works out? Funny how no one is talking about social care given it caused all this !!
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Successful politicians did mostly enter Parliament young, because seniority mattered. Thatcher, Heseltine, Callaghan, Blair, Brown were elected in their early thirties. Churchill and Harold Wilson did it in their twenties. Asterisk on John Major who was mid-thirties but had been on the council since the age of 25. The only recent high achiever who entered Parliament later than around 35-36, as far as I can tell, is Theresa May. (Edit: Sunak and Johnson were both mid-late 30s entrants, rather testing the hypothesis about life experience.)
Just about to scroll through the comments to see if anything important has happened in the last few hours when I've been offline. You get a better idea on here than looking at news websites. 😊
Immigration – resist open borders. Withdraw from ECHR et al. 50k net migration per annum. ‘Unsolicited’ asylum applications declined, only those dreeing major conflict zones. Foreign spouses must speak good English. 7 years residence for citizenship. Cut study visas by half.
Schools – new grammar schools. Free school meals to all kids during term time. Reinforce teaching of british history – teaching will be ‘balanced and honest’. Teachers must avoid advocacy of ‘unorthodox or sectarian agendas’
Higher education – reduce tuition fees to 7k. Costs above this met by government. Courses in key sectors with fees of zero. Cap loan repayments. Validate englishskills of international students before acceptance. Universities accommodate wide variety of viewpoints, no no-platforming.
Academic freedom – right to express ideas without being silenced. ‘get over it’ if you are offended. Challenge orthodoxies is a right (note – except for teachers in schools I guess?). right to be judged by your lecturers for ability, not how your views differ from theirs.
Culture media and sport – BBC funded from general taxation. Public funding of culture etc dependent on adherence to balance and free speech. All significant statues protected. 1% premier league tax to fund new pitches. All schools undertake mandatory daily mile run/walk/jog for pupils and staff (note – you what now?) unless extenuating circumstances.
There are a lot of promises of spending money in that SDP manifesto.
There is nothing about how the UK can - you know - actually produce more than it consumes.
And with the population continuing to age, and with the inevitable pressures on government budgets, it goes straight in my "doesn't understand the issues" bin. But that's OK! Who wants to understand the issues?
Just about to scroll through the comments to see if anything important has happened in the last few hours when I've been offline. You get a better idea on here than looking at news websites. 😊
You saw that Sunak’s top aide has been caught betting on the election date?
Just about to scroll through the comments to see if anything important has happened in the last few hours when I've been offline. You get a better idea on here than looking at news websites. 😊
You saw that Sunak’s top aide has been caught betting on the election date?
I still can't believe that its perfectly within the rules for US politicians are able to trade in stock when it is clear they sit on committees which are given information ahead of time or make decisions that will have direct impact on it.
Nancy Pelosi stock picks make Warren Buffet look like an amateur.
I suppose really I should apologise, I know most people were planning on reviewing the SDP manifesto themselves without me spoiling it for them.
You should have said "spoilers!". That makes it OK apparently 😀
More seriously, it contains more than one imposed constraint on free speech whilst saying they will encourage academic freedom. Can't do both.
No party is as ideologically coherent as they pretend they are. But it was very obvious where there were contradictions, or sudden insertion of random passion in place of vague fluff, as if the author's pet peeve was in play.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Successful politicians did mostly enter Parliament young, because seniority mattered. Thatcher, Heseltine, Callaghan, Blair, Brown were elected in their early thirties. Churchill and Harold Wilson did it in their twenties. Asterisk on John Major who was mid-thirties but had been on the council since the age of 25. The only recent high achiever who entered Parliament later than around 35-36, as far as I can tell, is Theresa May. (Edit: Sunak and Johnson were both mid-late 30s entrants, rather testing the hypothesis about life experience.)
Michael Howard was not elected as an MP until his 40s. Starmer was not elected as an MP until he was 53 so will reverse the recent trend of younger, political careerists as party leaders
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
Went through a cupboard in my classroom today. Found a 100 page life skills text book from 2005. It was all about paying tax, buying a house, renting, how mortgages work, bank accounts, etc. The kind of stuff folk (particularly SEN kids) need to know. Each double page had some text, then an explanation, then some exercises based on the real world. In the appendix, every single page was linked to the year 7, 8 and 9 literacy and numeracy curriculum. The curriculum dumped by Gove in favour of novels, clock time and "traditional" English and Maths.
The Tories aren't going to win zero seats, because RefUK aren't standing in Gavin Williamson's new constituency, and the only way they would have lost that one would have been because of a split vote with Farage's party.
The Tories aren't going to win zero seats, because RefUK aren't standing in Gavin Williamson's new constituency, and the only way they would have lost that one would have been because of a split vote with Farage's party.
Oh god, I forgot about him....if the Tories are down to small number of MPs, he is going to be back making a tit of himself as a shadow minister isn't he.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Sounds like both Starmer and Reeves are just what you are looking for.
Indeed (assuming Starmer wins) have we ever had a PM whose political career started later in life than Starmer?
The Duke of Wellington won a few battles I believe before becoming PM at 65, though he had already been elected as an MP for a rotten borough in the Irish Parliament before he entered the Lords
The Tories aren't going to win zero seats, because RefUK aren't standing in Gavin Williamson's new constituency, and the only way they would have lost that one would have been because of a split vote with Farage's party.
They aren't standing in Maidenhead or Epping Forest or a seat or 2 in Dorset and Devon either
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
My son was watching a YouTube video about the oil industry and drilling in the Arctic. The guy making it clearly had a way with catchy sayings and nice graphics, but it was slightly ruined by gross factual inaccuracies: the guys imply had no idea ... well ... about anything to do with energy.
I will now have to spend the evening unprogramming my son.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Successful politicians did mostly enter Parliament young, because seniority mattered. Thatcher, Heseltine, Callaghan, Blair, Brown were elected in their early thirties. Churchill and Harold Wilson did it in their twenties. Asterisk on John Major who was mid-thirties but had been on the council since the age of 25. The only recent high achiever who entered Parliament later than around 35-36, as far as I can tell, is Theresa May. (Edit: Sunak and Johnson were both mid-late 30s entrants, rather testing the hypothesis about life experience.)
Michael Howard was not elected as an MP until his 40s. Starmer was not elected as an MP until he was 53 so will reverse the recent trend of younger, political careerists as party leaders
Well, as I noted, this is not a recent trend, unless recent includes Winston Churchill. Starmer's route to almost-PM is historically highly unusual, and the key has been his brazen embrace and U-turn on Corbynism.
Guido's a mystery. I think he owns the advertising network he uses, so I suppose that pays. But his prescence on Twitter is odd - I interact with plenty of people of his ilk, but his account is never recommended to me.
And yes, his comment section is pretty racist, and other kinds of nuts. Odd he hasn't been cancelled for it.
General election 2019: Jonathan Ashworth apologises after Corbyn criticism leak
Ashworth has solid judgment.
I thought Starmer excuse for being in Corbyn cabinet was poor. I didn't think he would win.
So that's ok then. I think a better and more honest answer if I thought I could influence policy and I am first and foremost a believer in the ideals of the Labour movement and that it is better that they have a say in the political discourse.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
The riposte to that would be that constituency associations are the plaything of a small number of obsessives who aren't very reflective of the general population, or even average Tory voter.
That's true of party memberships full stop. Which is why we can predict with a fair degree of certainty that Sunak will be replaced by an extreme right wing lunatic spouting Trumpian nonsense.
If they had the final say alone, they don't which is why CCHQ stuffed safe seat selections for Tory seats the Tories are still likely to hold even on current polls with Sunak loyalists to keep the ERG candidate off the final 2. At the moment therefore I think Tory members will only get to choose between Tugendhat and Barclay or Cleverly (if Cleverly holds Braintree). Most Tory MPs left won't put Jenrick, Patel, Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 to the members
They could do a lot worse than Cleverly. He’s probably not an ideological powerhouse and is prone to the odd gaffe but does the ‘seems like a decent fella’ thing well and I think has a pretty sharp wit and an affable demeanour.
One of Sunak’s worst traits is his tetchiness; he is easy to irritate and it shows. Cleverly gets the game and rolls with the punches.
Indeed, Cleverly has to hold Braintree first though, which was won by Labour in 1997
Can somebody explain with the SDP. Weren’t they an offshoot of Labour. I can’t see anyone from that party ever standing on those policies.
Had a takeover a few years ago I believe, former UKIPer. More of a mix of left wing economics and right wing social policies now.
A surprisingly high number of candidates though, 122 apparently according to wiki.
Yes, the current SDP is wholly unrelated to the 1980s SDP. It was Patrick O'Flynn who migrated from a UKIP MEP to head up the SDP because he wasn't happy about UKIP having Tommy Robinson as an advisor. I believe they have a pact with Reform in a few seats?
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
Here is my take. Thatcher and Major were rooted in reality. They understood the situation and proposed a route through it. Frankly, same with Blair. All partially. Remember, "Yes it hurt, yes it worked". Economy was broken by my predecessor, I took action which was painful but look at the results.
Sunak talks the talk - I did Furlough. But the problem is that h isn't rooted in reality. Listen to him tonight. In denial about tax. In denial about migration. In denial about inflation.
Your party are lying to people. Saying they have cut taxes as everyone sees taxes going up. Says they have got inflation under control as costs continue to go mad. Says migration is down as it rises. That waiting lists are down as they rise. That migration is reducing as it increases.
Compare and contrast with Farage. You may hate his solutions. His style. His dog-whistling, But it is all rooted in reality.
What happened to the Conservative Party? It isn't just this lot. Its Fuck Business. Its we've had enough of experts. Its denial of the impacts of the Brexit deal on farming and fishing and industry. Whatever happened to capitalism? Of investment? Of good money management?
I think this failing is really one of late-stage Cameronism.
If people are struggling to get on the housing ladder, instead of looking at the structural causes, you just have a policy called "Help to Buy" and ignore the 101 other things you're doing that make the problem worse.
This isn't something that began in 2016.
Basic economic illiteracy is the curse of the political classes. The failure to understand that prices are set by supply and demand, and that the only affect of a bung will be to move prices higher. Likewise, a failure to realise that high levels of stamp duty discourage trading down and result in the UK having both a housing crisis, and a record number of empty bedrooms.
It's rather sad.
Do they not teach them any of the E on that PPE course they all seem to do?
The E is effectively a term. They do a term of each first year then drop one of the subjects AIUI. The one with a bit of numeracy is usually dumped. No other institution would be permitted to have that in the degree title.
Guido's a mystery. I think he owns the advertising network he uses, so I suppose that pays. But his prescence on Twitter is odd - I interact with plenty of people of his ilk, but his account is never recommended to me.
And yes, his comment section is pretty racist, and other kinds of nuts. Odd he hasn't been cancelled for it.
My understanding is he has a profitable enterprise through the advertising network and also he regularly sells stories to the papers.
General election 2019: Jonathan Ashworth apologises after Corbyn criticism leak
Ashworth has solid judgment.
I thought Starmer excuse for being in Corbyn cabinet was poor. I didn't think he would win.
So that's ok then. I think a better and more honest answer if I thought I could influence policy and I am first and foremost a believer in the ideals of the Labour movement and that it is better that they have a say in the political discourse.
Rory Stewart quit because he couldn’t support Johnson. That is principle. Sunak supported Johnson.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
It was pensioners who re elected Macron in 2022, the middle aged voted for Le Pen in the first round and the young for Melenchon
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
The riposte to that would be that constituency associations are the plaything of a small number of obsessives who aren't very reflective of the general population, or even average Tory voter.
That's true of party memberships full stop. Which is why we can predict with a fair degree of certainty that Sunak will be replaced by an extreme right wing lunatic spouting Trumpian nonsense.
If they had the final say alone, they don't which is why CCHQ stuffed safe seat selections for Tory seats the Tories are still likely to hold even on current polls with Sunak loyalists to keep the ERG candidate off the final 2. At the moment therefore I think Tory members will only get to choose between Tugendhat and Barclay or Cleverly (if Cleverly holds Braintree). Most Tory MPs left won't put Jenrick, Patel, Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 to the members
They could do a lot worse than Cleverly. He’s probably not an ideological powerhouse and is prone to the odd gaffe but does the ‘seems like a decent fella’ thing well and I think has a pretty sharp wit and an affable demeanour.
One of Sunak’s worst traits is his tetchiness; he is easy to irritate and it shows. Cleverly gets the game and rolls with the punches.
Are you sure about Cleverly? Him with the hilarious date-rape drug joke, making him one of the lads?
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
I actually am wrong about Rishi's career, because if anything he's had by some measures a very successful career, it is just on hyperspeed, as befits this tech bro age - get elected, become a minister, PM, then lose your seat (potentially) unless than 10 years.
Guido's a mystery. I think he owns the advertising network he uses, so I suppose that pays. But his prescence on Twitter is odd - I interact with plenty of people of his ilk, but his account is never recommended to me.
And yes, his comment section is pretty racist, and other kinds of nuts. Odd he hasn't been cancelled for it.
My understanding is he has a profitable enterprise through the advertising network and also he regularly sells stories to the papers.
Presumably that's a dying art though - an exclusive which might have earned £100k twenty years ago might only be worth £10k now.
General election 2019: Jonathan Ashworth apologises after Corbyn criticism leak
Ashworth has solid judgment.
I thought Starmer excuse for being in Corbyn cabinet was poor. I didn't think he would win.
So that's ok then. I think a better and more honest answer if I thought I could influence policy and I am first and foremost a believer in the ideals of the Labour movement and that it is better that they have a say in the political discourse.
Rory Stewart quit because he couldn’t support Johnson. That is principle. Sunak supported Johnson.
But we aren't talking about them. I was saying I thought Starmers answer was poor and not sure why he didn't go with my line of response. The "I didn't think he would win" also plays into the Owen Jones element of this world that it was infamy, infamy, they never believed in Magic Grandpa.
Went through a cupboard in my classroom today. Found a 100 page life skills text book from 2005. It was all about paying tax, buying a house, renting, how mortgages work, bank accounts, etc. The kind of stuff folk (particularly SEN kids) need to know. Each double page had some text, then an explanation, then some exercises based on the real world. In the appendix, every single page was linked to the year 7, 8 and 9 literacy and numeracy curriculum. The curriculum dumped by Gove in favour of novels, clock time and "traditional" English and Maths.
It also had how to register as homeless, claim benefits, apply for a job, make a doctor's appointment, register with a dentist, etc. Made me really sad as to what we are teaching. And why. Critical race theory was nowhere to be seen amazingly.
Just about to scroll through the comments to see if anything important has happened in the last few hours when I've been offline. You get a better idea on here than looking at news websites. 😊
You also get shit poetry here
Late night on PB Nothing good on the telly Drunkards start writing
General election 2019: Jonathan Ashworth apologises after Corbyn criticism leak
Ashworth has solid judgment.
I thought Starmer excuse for being in Corbyn cabinet was poor. I didn't think he would win.
So that's ok then. I think a better and more honest answer if I thought I could influence policy and I am first and foremost a believer in the ideals of the Labour movement and that it is better that they have a say in the political discourse.
Rory Stewart quit because he couldn’t support Johnson. That is principle. Sunak supported Johnson.
But we aren't talking about them. I was saying I thought Starmers answer was poor and not sure why he didn't go with my line of response. The "I didn't think he would win" also plays into the Owen Jones element of this world that it was infamy, infamy, they never believed in Magic Grandpa.
Starmer’s answer was poor. But no worse than when Blair supported Foot for example.
I think Sunak should answer why he supported Johnson. Has anyone asked him?
Guido's a mystery. I think he owns the advertising network he uses, so I suppose that pays. But his prescence on Twitter is odd - I interact with plenty of people of his ilk, but his account is never recommended to me.
And yes, his comment section is pretty racist, and other kinds of nuts. Odd he hasn't been cancelled for it.
My understanding is he has a profitable enterprise through the advertising network and also he regularly sells stories to the papers.
Presumably that's a dying art though - an exclusive which might have earned £100k twenty years ago might only be worth £10k now.
Probably. Also remember he is a bit of a canny operator. He hires interns and fresh faced grads as they see the production line of former employees have gone onto MSM, so I doubt he has to pay them megabucks. Its basically a paid internship to get your foot in the door of politics and the media.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Cameron, Clegg, the Milibands, Hague largely followed that course, as did Portillo (except he read history not PPE). May read geography and then went to the Bank of England.
Rishi though was in finance for a number of years after PPE, Hunt and Truss and Reeves in business after PPE (Reeves also like May at the Bank of England). Starmer read law not PPE and was a barrister and head of the CPS, Blair also read law and was a barrister first as was Michael Howard. Boris read classics and was a journalist first not a SPAD. Brown read history and was a college lecturer.
Farage and Corbyn never even graduated from university of course and neither were SPADs, Farage worked in the city and Corbyn was a trade union rep and local councillor before election as an MP. IDS was a non graduate as well and in the army first
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
The riposte to that would be that constituency associations are the plaything of a small number of obsessives who aren't very reflective of the general population, or even average Tory voter.
That's true of party memberships full stop. Which is why we can predict with a fair degree of certainty that Sunak will be replaced by an extreme right wing lunatic spouting Trumpian nonsense.
If they had the final say alone, they don't which is why CCHQ stuffed safe seat selections for Tory seats the Tories are still likely to hold even on current polls with Sunak loyalists to keep the ERG candidate off the final 2. At the moment therefore I think Tory members will only get to choose between Tugendhat and Barclay or Cleverly (if Cleverly holds Braintree). Most Tory MPs left won't put Jenrick, Patel, Braverman or Badenoch in the last 2 to the members
They could do a lot worse than Cleverly. He’s probably not an ideological powerhouse and is prone to the odd gaffe but does the ‘seems like a decent fella’ thing well and I think has a pretty sharp wit and an affable demeanour.
One of Sunak’s worst traits is his tetchiness; he is easy to irritate and it shows. Cleverly gets the game and rolls with the punches.
Indeed, Cleverly has to hold Braintree first though, which was won by Labour in 1997
I quite like the guy. Seems like a gentleman. He got properly duffed up by Streeting (having to yet again defend the £2k lie) but offered a handshake at the end. Generally he’s a good communicator and debates well while always remaining polite.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
Reform are outpolling the Tories among under 25s. The number might still be relatively small but it shows the direction of travel.
I think its a fools errand to make any prediction about where things might go over the next 10 years.
Maybe Starmer will turn it all around, we get loads of growth, a productive economy, etc etc etc. Then I think it will be back to arguing over the middle ground, who has less scandals, etc. If we carry on with another 10 years of high tax, low growth, low productivity, high immigration, worsening living standards, AI taking white collar jobs, I wouldn't like to predict what the people go for.
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
I find it horrifying that people can find anything good in the legacy of Stalin or Mao. How many millions of deaths because of them?
Tories are ahead of Reform in England and in Scotland, Reform ahead of the Tories in Wales.
Yes, overall though Reform now lead the Tories with Leavers with Yougov (with Labour third) and the Tories lead Reform with Remainers (though both trail Labour and the LDs with Remain voters overall)
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventually get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
No, the opposition amongst the young to the political consensus here is from the left not the right. Corbynism, Gaza and Greens here, Melenchon in France.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
Reform are outpolling the Tories among under 25s. The number might still be relatively small but it shows the direction of travel.
According to Yougov the LDs are second to Labour with under 50s
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
I find it horrifying that people can find anything good in the legacy of Stalin or Mao. How many millions of deaths because of them?
I don't think I was ever taught anything about Mao, Marx, etc in school. A bit about Lenin and that Stalin, he was the bloke who led the Russian and he was on our side....Then it was pretty much British history, Empire, slaves, etc.
I think there is a large collective blindspot to the fact the Hitler / Nazi's aren't the only super baddies in history.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Successful politicians did mostly enter Parliament young, because seniority mattered. Thatcher, Heseltine, Callaghan, Blair, Brown were elected in their early thirties. Churchill and Harold Wilson did it in their twenties. Asterisk on John Major who was mid-thirties but had been on the council since the age of 25. The only recent high achiever who entered Parliament later than around 35-36, as far as I can tell, is Theresa May. (Edit: Sunak and Johnson were both mid-late 30s entrants, rather testing the hypothesis about life experience.)
Michael Howard was not elected as an MP until his 40s. Starmer was not elected as an MP until he was 53 so will reverse the recent trend of younger, political careerists as party leaders
Well, as I noted, this is not a recent trend, unless recent includes Winston Churchill. Starmer's route to almost-PM is historically highly unusual, and the key has been his brazen embrace and U-turn on Corbynism.
Hopefully Starmer's career will prove more of a trend, why not have a few PMs who didn't become MPs until their late 40s or even mid 50s after successful careers in business or the professions? Trump for all his faults at least was never a professional politician and didn't first run for office until he was over 70. Berlusconi too didn't enter politics until his late 50s after a successful business career, Eisenhower didn't run for office first until he was over 60 having been a top general
At this stage of a GE campaign we are usually discussing which Party is ahead amongst various segments of the electorate. Not chasing rainbows as to who's second or third. It's like when Man United got relegated.
Tories are ahead of Reform in England and in Scotland, Reform ahead of the Tories in Wales.
Yes, overall though Reform now lead the Tories with Leavers with Yougov (with Labour third) and the Tories lead Reform with Remainers (though both trail Labour and the LDs with Remain voters overall)
I really wonder if there could be some value bets on RFM in Wales. Places like Torfaen are moving away from Labour, 2019 RFM + Con > Lab - so it'd be one of the first places to feel a reform surge.
I’ve decided. I really hope Reform kills off the Conservative Party at this election. The Conservatives have to die ( ex-councillor and constituency association chairman).
I struggle to understand why this incarnation simply couldn't deliver.
The Thatcher and Major administrations did.
I think that centralised control over candidate selection meant we finished up with lightweights, who were there to line their own pockets.
Starmer has ensured the NEC is just as centralised in terms of Labour candidates shortlists, see their imposition of their own candidates in Chingford and Brighton Kemptown over local Labour parties choices
The first problem with both main parties is that you used to have people who had a career in something else and then moved into politics in their 40s or 50s. Now we have too many people where politics is a job for life so they go PPE at Oxbridge - SPAD - MP. The second problem with both parties is that by centralising selections the types of people who get picked tend to be well-connected middle-class people from London, who then get foisted on provincial seats and have no real affinity with them.
Cameron, Clegg, the Milibands, Hague largely followed that course, as did Portillo (except he read history not PPE). May read geography and then went to the Bank of England.
Rishi though was in finance for a number of years after PPE, Hunt and Truss and Reeves in business after PPE (Reeves also like May at the Bank of England). Starmer read law not PPE and was a barrister and head of the CPS, Blair also read law and was a barrister first as was Michael Howard. Boris read classics and was a journalist first not a SPAD. Brown read history and was a college lecturer.
Farage and Corbyn never even graduated from university of course and neither were SPADs, Farage worked in the city and Corbyn was a trade union rep and local councillor before election as an MP. IDS was a non graduate as well and in the army first
When you look at Thatcher's first cabinet, it is an interesting mix of soldiers (both WW2 and post-WW2), lawyers, business (tending towards business rather than 'finance'). And far more Cambridge graduates than Oxford PPE types. 😀
It will be fascinating to see the volte-face by liberal middle-aged men on here if the young turn rapidly to the right in the coming years.
There’s no reason to assume the UK is different to other advanced democracies.
So how, then, can we explain why it is different now? If it's different now why should it be the same in the future? The fact we've been governed into the ground by Thatcherism and its cosplay version for 45 years, rather than by social/Christian democratic consensus?
Every Western democracy is high tax/ high spend/ high regulate, regardless of the rhetoric.
As you perceive it. So why are the young in this country overwhelmingly of the Left and the old of the Right? To an extent not seen in any other developed nation?
Young people will look for radical alternatives to the current system, they will eventuallyj get attracted to the 'right' because of reactive dynamics. The thing that makes this more likely in my view is the 'right' is forbidden, outlawed through hate speech laws, lectured about in schools, people being sent to prison on dubious charges, etc. All this just makes it more and more attractive. It is what has happened in Europe and it will be likely to happen in the UK.
Simply saying that it is likely they will become so, does not explain why it isn't the case thus far. The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years. Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes. Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world. Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now. So. I ask again. Why is that?
I have met a few Gen Z via my younger son (who will vote LD) who are Communists, even to the point of liking Stalin and Mao. Not students either, one is a chef.
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
I find it horrifying that people can find anything good in the legacy of Stalin or Mao. How many millions of deaths because of them?
The development of economic and scientific super powers in roughly half a century.
Comments
@mariacaulfield
Key result from TV debate which actually says Rishi come out on top
https://x.com/mariacaulfield/status/1800989967411212706
Also the support for the hard right in Europe can be quite exagerrated. The reality is more subtle. Take this 2022 Politico article for example:
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-presidential-election-2022-emmanuel-macron-marine-le-pen-young-euroskeptics/
Jaded voters remember
Brenda from Bristol
In fairness they might not have lost as badly if they'd stuck with him, but it was not goign well.
Which is promising limerick material.
Good luck on the Defence Pact after you've said that you will only do things when they are a direct threat to the UK. If I was New Zealand, I wouldn't feel very reassured by that combination.
Or it was a very odd typo. Your choice.
Immigration – resist open borders. Withdraw from ECHR et al. 50k net migration per annum. ‘Unsolicited’ asylum applications declined, only those dreeing major conflict zones. Foreign spouses must speak good English. 7 years residence for citizenship. Cut study visas by half.
Schools – new grammar schools. Free school meals to all kids during term time. Reinforce teaching of british history – teaching will be ‘balanced and honest’. Teachers must avoid advocacy of ‘unorthodox or sectarian agendas’
Higher education – reduce tuition fees to 7k. Costs above this met by government. Courses in key sectors with fees of zero. Cap loan repayments. Validate englishskills of international students before acceptance. Universities accommodate wide variety of viewpoints, no no-platforming.
Academic freedom – right to express ideas without being silenced. ‘get over it’ if you are offended. Challenge orthodoxies is a right (note – except for teachers in schools I guess?). right to be judged by your lecturers for ability, not how your views differ from theirs.
Culture media and sport – BBC funded from general taxation. Public funding of culture etc dependent on adherence to balance and free speech. All significant statues protected. 1% premier league tax to fund new pitches. All schools undertake mandatory daily mile run/walk/jog for pupils and staff (note – you what now?) unless extenuating circumstances.
Sure we have always had a youth element for National Front, BNP or EDL, but never a very big one.
Indeed it is perfectly possible if Rees Mogg ever became Tory leader he could sign off on a merger (or takeover depending on your point of view) with/by Farage's Reform Party the next day.
With PR though a Cameroon/Sunakite/Mayite/Majorite Tories could survive even on just 10% of the vote as they would still get 65 MPs and could consider whether to try and form a government with Reform or the LDs post election (as their counterpart centre right parties in Italy, Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Spain, Germany, New Zealand and Israel do deals with populist nationalist right and/or liberal parties post election under PR systems). Whereas with FPTP 10% gives the Tories 0 seats at all
One of Sunak’s worst traits is his tetchiness; he is easy to irritate and it shows. Cleverly gets the game and rolls with the punches.
Indeed (assuming Starmer wins) have we ever had a PM whose political career started later in life than Starmer?
Tough on the causes of cannibalism
There is nothing about how the UK can - you know - actually produce more than it consumes.
And with the population continuing to age, and with the inevitable pressures on government budgets, it goes straight in my "doesn't understand the issues" bin. But that's OK! Who wants to understand the issues?
I think that left wing criticism of Starmer to be at least as strong as right wing, and more so from the young.
Food, farming and countryside – subsidies to produce sustainable food. 90% farmland maintained for agriculture. Reverse decline in small farms and restore farm diversity. Reestablish land based colleges. Trade deals will not disadvantage farmers.
Fisheries – expand sector. Buy british policy. Impact of acquaculture reduced through research. Coastal communities regenerated through affordable housing, restriction on second homes etc.
Environment – national land use plan to optimize limited space. Support increase use of green belt, but not for housing. Focus on climate is fostering anxiety in children. Natural history GCSE focus on british wildlife and naturalists.
Animal welfare – ban export of non stun slaughter. Label if halal or kosher. Funding for alternatives to animal experimentation. Increase abattoir inspections.
Conclusion – all over the place. Anti immigrant, pro nationalization priorities. Detail in constitutional, local gov, and education areas make me think it was written by a student who is also a councillor.
Could be worse, no real figures or much detail outside of specific areas, bit nutty in places. Give it a D-. Would have given a D for simple design, but three blank pages at the back for no reason.
A surprisingly high number of candidates though, 122 apparently according to wiki.
Cameron and Osborn do cuts to councils impacting social care funding
Low council funding means social care wages are low so depend on cheap eu unskilled migrant labour to keep running
Eu migrants dry up after brexit so boris and priti Patel let care orgs give out visas to unskilled migrants for care to make up numbers
These visas lead to HUGE immigration numbers which is REALLY unpopular and where we are now
funny how it works out? Funny how no one is talking about social care given it caused all this !!
Or actually a major party too, much of the time.
The Right has been the dominant narrative in UK politics for 45 years.
Hate speech, well. Being an arsehole is frowned upon, yes.
Absolutely no one is lectured about politics in schools. There's zero space in a bullshit curriculum of nonsense of little relevance to the modern world.
Yes young people will look for radical alternatives, but they are of the Left overwhelmingly in comparison to other comparable nations right here, right now.
So. I ask again. Why is that?
My own guess is Dr. Evil, Jr. from his secret lair in Bugger Bognor.
More seriously, it contains more than one imposed constraint on free speech whilst saying they will encourage academic freedom. Can't do both.
Nancy Pelosi stock picks make Warren Buffet look like an amateur.
https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/06/05/parties/
I didn't start an argument, but his idea of what life under Communism was like is seriously mis-informed. The Iron Curtain fell a dozen years before he was born, so just history from a book, or more likely TikTok. Nice lad in other ways and good housemate of Foxjr2.
Found a 100 page life skills text book from 2005.
It was all about paying tax, buying a house, renting, how mortgages work, bank accounts, etc.
The kind of stuff folk (particularly SEN kids) need to know.
Each double page had some text, then an explanation, then some exercises based on the real world.
In the appendix, every single page was linked to the year 7, 8 and 9 literacy and numeracy curriculum.
The curriculum dumped by Gove in favour of
novels, clock time and "traditional" English and Maths.
General election 2019: Jonathan Ashworth apologises after Corbyn criticism leak
Ashworth has solid judgment.
I will now have to spend the evening unprogramming my son.
And yes, his comment section is pretty racist, and other kinds of nuts. Odd he hasn't been cancelled for it.
So that's ok then. I think a better and more honest answer if I thought I could influence policy and I am first and foremost a believer in the ideals of the Labour movement and that it is better that they have a say in the political discourse.
The one with a bit of numeracy is usually dumped.
No other institution would be permitted to have that in the degree title.
Made me really sad as to what we are teaching.
And why.
Critical race theory was nowhere to be seen amazingly.
https://x.com/francis_scarr/status/1800792625252884731
Nothing good on the telly
Drunkards start writing
I think Sunak should answer why he supported Johnson. Has anyone asked him?
Cameron, Clegg, the Milibands, Hague largely followed that course, as did Portillo (except he read history not PPE). May read geography and then went to the Bank of England.
Rishi though was in finance for a number of years after PPE, Hunt and Truss and Reeves in business after PPE (Reeves also like May at the Bank of England). Starmer read law not PPE and was a barrister and head of the CPS, Blair also read law and was a barrister first as was Michael Howard. Boris read classics and was a journalist first not a SPAD. Brown read history and was a college lecturer.
Farage and Corbyn never even graduated from university of course and neither were SPADs, Farage worked in the city and Corbyn was a trade union rep and local councillor before election as an MP. IDS was a non graduate as well and in the army first
Could we pin that as a post?
Maybe Starmer will turn it all around, we get loads of growth, a productive economy, etc etc etc. Then I think it will be back to arguing over the middle ground, who has less scandals, etc. If we carry on with another 10 years of high tax, low growth, low productivity, high immigration, worsening living standards, AI taking white collar jobs, I wouldn't like to predict what the people go for.
Reform are ahead of the Tories among:
- Under 50s
- Men
- 2016 Leavers
- Welsh voters
- Midlands and London voters
Tories are ahead of Reform among:
- Over 65s
- Women
- 2016 Remainers
- Scottish and English voters overall
- Northern and Rest of South voters
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Sky_VI_240611.pdf
Yes, overall though Reform now lead the Tories with Leavers with Yougov (with Labour third) and the Tories lead Reform with Remainers (though both trail Labour and the LDs with Remain voters overall)
I think there is a large collective blindspot to the fact the Hitler / Nazi's aren't the only super baddies in history.
Not chasing rainbows as to who's second or third.
It's like when Man United got relegated.