Mr. Pioneers, in a level-pegging, gosh-it's-close type election I'd agree.
But this is not that. The debate is over how much Labour will win by. They almost certainly will win, and therefore be in a position to impose tax rises.
Of course they will post tax rises! As the Tories have over and over and over again!
Sunak's problem is that the party have gone to town with a pre-briefed attack line £2k tax rise - and have been caught lying their face off. Which considering the massive damage to themselves done by all the previous lies is a bit stupid really.
I've only skimmed, but there's a notable lack of any obvious link between vaccines and excess deaths (not to mention the issues with excess deaths as a measure, after lockdowns). They have some interesting data, but they oversell it quite badly - I'd have had plenty of objections at peer review. If they'd found anything substantive this would be in bmj or Lancet or somewhere reputable like NEJM. Even having said that, the Telegraph, Farage and other loons are overselling it way beyond even what the authors are saying.
There's also the outright untruth that governments don't make detailed death data available. The UK does. I've used it - full cause of death and underlying causes are available. The data aren't always great due to different interpretations of recording, but they are there.
It doesnt even matter if the vaccines are dangerous which they are. But even if they werent if people believe they are dangerous its disastrous.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Mr. eek, oh, I agree entirely the Conservatives are being irresponsible financially, as Brown was when he brought forward spending to make the economic picture rosier ahead of the 2010 election but worse after it (and his terrible carrier contracts were similarly awful).
But Labour are the ones who have a problem really, as they're going to be the ones in power. They will be increasing taxes, or heaping up borrowing even more.
If we had a media with a brain in their collective head they might just understand how party first, country second Labour were in 2010, or the Conservatives are now.
Tory Gain in Montgomeryshire in Tuesdays by election, they are 2 for 2 during the campaign. Lolz Rhiwcynon AMY, Richard Edward, Welsh Liberal Democrats 74
JONES, Ann Plaid Cymru 286
JONES, Richard Breese, Independent 110
LEWIS, Oliver, Reform UK 18
MARKINSON, David, Independent 4
PARFITT, Rhodri, The Green Party 13
WIXEY, Paul, Welsh Labour 25
YEOMANS, John Welsh, Conservative 352 (Elected)
The interesting thing about Welsh politics is not the terrible prospects for conservative mps on the 4th July but just what's happens in the Senedd in 2026 when Welsh Labour cannot blame Westminster for its woes
Not really relevant. WL claims to be a separate entity from the Labour one in Westminster, with some autonomy, same as ScotLab do. So that will still play.
Drakeford blamed the conservative government for all the woes but of course in 2026 Labour will be the government
So? WL will just blame UK Labour.
There's no point in them having a separate party front but being the same party underneath, otherwise.
PB_Tories were so sure that PB_Lefties were so annoyed with the National Service 'policy' that is was evidence it was a game-changer for the election. Now PB_Tories are saying that it's a good thing for our Prime Minister to be a blatant liar and PB_Lefties are only upset because it's going to be a game-changer for the election.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Hang on. Were you not ramping the debate - and specifically the £2k attack - as a "game changer"?
Got to say the problem with your typical Russian Troll is that their debate points are boringly predictable:-
The covid vaccines will kill you Ukraine will lose the war Russian is great (for reasons that make zero sense to anyone not brainwashed in Russia)...
I dont believe 1 or 3 but think 2 is substantively correct depending what winning losing actually means.
I think any solution will involve Ukraine having less land than before the invasion. Whats the alternative logic?
1 is correct if he said "can". But it is all risk. The risk of Covid versus the risk of the vaccine. It is certainly no reason not to take the vaccine.
I think you are right on Ukraine too. Whatever solution there is it will end up with a negotiation of some sorts. Land will be lost. The West won't want to keep funding Ukraine forever. Better to take a negotiation and shore up the defenses of NATO countries.
Assuming a settlement is begging the question.
Any negotiation is pointless until Putin is obliged to abandon his ambition to restore the Russian empire. Otherwise all you're negotiating is a pause.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
It also means that the Tories can no longer talk about any tax issue (or in fact probably anything) because they've been caught lying already...
I've only skimmed, but there's a notable lack of any obvious link between vaccines and excess deaths (not to mention the issues with excess deaths as a measure, after lockdowns). They have some interesting data, but they oversell it quite badly - I'd have had plenty of objections at peer review. If they'd found anything substantive this would be in bmj or Lancet or somewhere reputable like NEJM. Even having said that, the Telegraph, Farage and other loons are overselling it way beyond even what the authors are saying.
There's also the outright untruth that governments don't make detailed death data available. The UK does. I've used it - full cause of death and underlying causes are available. The data aren't always great due to different interpretations of recording, but they are there.
It doesnt even matter if the vaccines are dangerous which they are. But even if they werent if people believe they are dangerous its disastrous.
Can we sunset this guy ?
I’ve got an idea.
If PB are short of moderators and editors, they can bring a whole load of candidates to an island, that has the ability to never be found and can move itself, and then surreptitiously put them through a series of challenges and tests. Occasionally a column of smoke that makes noise of a New York taxi could kill one of them, which sounds harsh, but never mind.
So many people actually live on here 24/7, vast majority of those in retirement, and a few might even be grown up enough to allowed to be moderator/troll slayer.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Hang on. Were you not ramping the debate - and specifically the £2k attack - as a "game changer"?
PB_Tories were so sure that PB_Lefties were so annoyed with the National Service 'policy' that is was evidence it was a game-changer for the election. Now PB_Tories are saying that it's a good thing for our Prime Minister to be a blatant liar and PB_Lefties are only upset because it's going to be a game-changer for the election.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
They are very comparable lies, one leading to invading a country resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths v the other saying a party will put up taxes so I can see why lefties are as unhappy.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
The Conservatives have already raised taxes and substantially.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
You and I know that will not happen and Sunak will double down and make Labour and taxes a big election issue
It is a general election campaign with just 4 weeks to go and all Sunak can do is to appeal to his 2019 voters to mitigate his loses and on that he did it successfully last night
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Can we just install Jezza as PM as BJ wasnt correct on oven ready deal?
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
It also means that the Tories can no longer talk about any tax issue (or in fact probably anything) because they've been caught lying already...
That’s exactly what I was thinking. After the pile on Sunak happened last time in the commons he tried to make capital out of trans, and he won’t mention it since - you are caught out with a tax lie, tax scare as quickly as this, all the rest of those missiles are now duds.
PB_Tories were so sure that PB_Lefties were so annoyed with the National Service 'policy' that is was evidence it was a game-changer for the election. Now PB_Tories are saying that it's a good thing for our Prime Minister to be a blatant liar and PB_Lefties are only upset because it's going to be a game-changer for the election.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
At some point, "upsetting the right people" became a useful means to an end, then an end in itself. I reckon it was when online trolling culture went mainstream, but it might have been earlier. Anyway, it's infected right wing thought and it's a bad thing.
Thinking about the core sin of Sunak's tactics here... Suppose he had foregone the "HM Treasury" bit of his message? Got party hacks, or a tame think tank to crunch the numbers? It would have been weaker, sure, but still good enough for campaign purposes. After all, the big bus number came from Dominic Cummings's bottom, not a government source, and that still worked.
As it is, Rishi has lied in a fairly simple to understand way. If anyone is paying attention, that's pretty fatal.
PB_Tories were so sure that PB_Lefties were so annoyed with the National Service 'policy' that is was evidence it was a game-changer for the election. Now PB_Tories are saying that it's a good thing for our Prime Minister to be a blatant liar and PB_Lefties are only upset because it's going to be a game-changer for the election.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
They are very comparable lies, invading a country resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths v the other party will put up taxes so I can see why lefties are as unhappy.
I think that just proves my point, Nye Bevan was right in 1948
"Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were.”
Got to say the problem with your typical Russian Troll is that their debate points are boringly predictable:-
The covid vaccines will kill you Ukraine will lose the war Russian is great (for reasons that make zero sense to anyone not brainwashed in Russia)...
I dont believe 1 or 3 but think 2 is substantively correct depending what winning losing actually means.
I think any solution will involve Ukraine having less land than before the invasion. Whats the alternative logic?
1 is correct if he said "can". But it is all risk. The risk of Covid versus the risk of the vaccine. It is certainly no reason not to take the vaccine.
I think you are right on Ukraine too. Whatever solution there is it will end up with a negotiation of some sorts. Land will be lost. The West won't want to keep funding Ukraine forever. Better to take a negotiation and shore up the defenses of NATO countries.
Assuming a settlement is begging the question.
Any negotiation is pointless until Putin is obliged to abandon his ambition to restore the Russian empire. Otherwise all you're negotiating is a pause.
A pause is a pause for both sides. What we do will be just as important in that respect.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Hang on. Were you not ramping the debate - and specifically the £2k attack - as a "game changer"?
True that, same with the VAT on Private Schools policy.
Got to say the problem with your typical Russian Troll is that their debate points are boringly predictable:-
The covid vaccines will kill you Ukraine will lose the war Russian is great (for reasons that make zero sense to anyone not brainwashed in Russia)...
I dont believe 1 or 3 but think 2 is substantively correct depending what winning losing actually means.
I think any solution will involve Ukraine having less land than before the invasion. Whats the alternative logic?
1 is correct if he said "can". But it is all risk. The risk of Covid versus the risk of the vaccine. It is certainly no reason not to take the vaccine.
I think you are right on Ukraine too. Whatever solution there is it will end up with a negotiation of some sorts. Land will be lost. The West won't want to keep funding Ukraine forever. Better to take a negotiation and shore up the defenses of NATO countries.
Assuming a settlement is begging the question.
Any negotiation is pointless until Putin is obliged to abandon his ambition to restore the Russian empire. Otherwise all you're negotiating is a pause.
A pause is a pause for both sides. What we do will be just as important in that respect.
Based on what we did last time, we're probably better seeing this thing through rather than trying to give up half way.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
The question to pose to Labour is: if Sunak's lying about the £2,000 per household claim, what's the real figure?
That's one question. The other, perhaps more pertinent one, is what else is Sunak lying about ?
Though as he'll not be on government shortly, perhaps not.
Actually no really interesting questions have yet been asked, or answered.
It’s potentially a dangerous game for Labour as the Tories will fire back with all Starmer’s flip-flops and start asking which of his current positions he’s lying about and will go back on if elected.
Labour would be better off just hammering home how much the average family’s tax bill has gone up since last election and repeat that figure and say that if they need to raise taxes to fix the Tory mess they will regretfully have to but not as much as the Tories did.
PB_Tories were so sure that PB_Lefties were so annoyed with the National Service 'policy' that is was evidence it was a game-changer for the election. Now PB_Tories are saying that it's a good thing for our Prime Minister to be a blatant liar and PB_Lefties are only upset because it's going to be a game-changer for the election.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
At some point, "upsetting the right people" became a useful means to an end, then an end in itself. I reckon it was when online trolling culture went mainstream, but it might have been earlier. Anyway, it's infected right wing thought and it's a bad thing.
Thinking about the core sin of Sunak's tactics here... Suppose he had foregone the "HM Treasury" bit of his message? Got party hacks, or a tame think tank to crunch the numbers? It would have been weaker, sure, but still good enough for campaign purposes. After all, the big bus number came from Dominic Cummings's bottom, not a government source, and that still worked.
As it is, Rishi has lied in a fairly simple to understand way. If anyone is paying attention, that's pretty fatal.
Whilst the story is now Labour is demanding a public apology for trying to pass the lie off as Treasury work, there’s absolutely no way Sunak and his campaign can actually publically apologies for that mistake, they have to stand by it all through the campaign now - to apologise would take a far bigger hit than not apologise, so Sunak and his campaign are in a bit of a hole now.
Just not apologies but not mention it or use it on anything anywhere. If they doubled down on it, continue to run with it, that’s like digging when in a hole. They won’t be flagging £2,000 a year labour tax bombshell, they will be flagging up “look at us, we’re still fluently lying at you!”
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
TV is legacy media... I can almost guarantee you those 5 million were overwhelmingly above 55 years of age.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Theres been plenty of polling etc that tells us 'liar' generally doesnt go down well, is seen as gutterish etc. John Rentoul is forever despairing at its use. Its all a bit cornered rat.
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
The Prime Minister has said a pile of stuff that isn't true.
How cross are Labour allowed to get?
(And as a wider question... Even if people don't want Starmer to win, or don't want him to win big... There's still a line that it's not OK to cross isn't there?
Somewhere around "you don't have to tell the whole truth, you can be misleadingly partial, but you don't tell an untruth."
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
His wife might be condemned to a lifetime of cureable pain, because millionaire Starmer won't pay to end it. Because....political image.
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Okay Boomer.
Rather unkind but then maybe makes my point
Wow, that's as much condemnation as you gave Casino for his I'd wade through blood to get to Starmer comment. You're just here to be partisan and excuse behaviour that you would never approve of if it was coming from your political opponents.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
I think extended interviews are far better. But that requires a very good interviewer, which there aren't many and the MSM don't do interviews, they do gotchas. And of course politicians who aren't idiots run a mile from an Andrew Neil, who can do this.
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
Perhaps Starmer could give an undertaking that if their mini budget increases the average family's tax bill by £500 or more he will resign?
Thought not. They are going to be shocked, shocked at what they find, aren't they? Who could have guessed that a country that borrows £20bn a month needs more tax revenue?
I mean its not like that amounts to £571 per taxpayer (assuming 35m tax payers) FOR THE SINGLE MONTH, is it?
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Theres been plenty of polling etc that tells us 'liar' generally doesnt go down well, is seen as gutterish etc. John Rentoul is forever despairing at its use. Its all a bit cornered rat.
SKS cant win on the
"He is a liar" front
SKS pledges/ missions/ early plans all turn out to be lies (mainly deliberate)
Two donations totalling £200,000 is a significant sum.
I think it only needs one Labour assembly member to not back him?
Yes, the Senedd is split 30-30 (30 Lab, 16 Con, 12 PC, 1 LD and 1 independent elected as a PC). By convention the Llywydd (Speaker) and Deputy Llywydd do not vote so that makes it 29-29 if everyone votes.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Okay Boomer.
Rather unkind but then maybe makes my point
Wow, that's as much condemnation as you gave Casino for his I'd wade through blood to get to Starmer comment. You're just here to be partisan and excuse behaviour that you would never approve of if it was coming from your political opponents.
Casino was dropping c-bombs all over the place too. I don't mind so much - we're all passionate about politics so it's natural to get a bit hot under the collar when things aren't going our way.
Technically BigG is not a boomer so quite right to call you out
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
I find the idea that an ideological zealotry would underpin a decision to make about your health (particularly serious matters affecting your quality of life or being matter of life or death) absolutely mystifying. Truly I do.
If I’m worried about a concerning symptom and I have to wait longer using the NHS damn right if I had the money would I go private, to get it looked at quicker.
Yes I understand the argument that people shouldn’t need to but as others say it is about making sure the public option is so good there is little need to rely on private solutions.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
I think extended interviews are far better. But that requires a very good interviewer, which there aren't many and the MSM don't do interviews, they do gotchas. And of course politicians who aren't idiots run a mile from an Andrew Neil, who can do this.
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
I think long form interviews are very useful, however I do worry that the style of Andrew Neil is problematic. I mean it can be entertaining watching him squash a hapless politician like a bug but I think I’d prefer someone who would allow a politician to develop an argument and quietly pick it apart rather than the more hectoring approach Neil adopts.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
We see it all the time, where there are treatments only available in say US. They aren't licensed here and there is some charity drive to raise the money to send them.
But, even on the lesser note. Things like hips / knees, the wait list is years on NHS. And things like NHS dentistry doesn't over everything or won't get to you for a very very long time.
As I said, the easy answer is
"As PM I will improve the NHS, people shouldn't be having to make these decisions, but I understand that family is the most important thing and thus why people pay to go private. I support the NHS, I believe in the NHS, but there are very rare circumstances where if forced I am very fortunate to be able to make such a decision to help a family member. "
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Okay Boomer.
Rather unkind but then maybe makes my point
Wow, that's as much condemnation as you gave Casino for his I'd wade through blood to get to Starmer comment. You're just here to be partisan and excuse behaviour that you would never approve of if it was coming from your political opponents.
Casino was dropping c-bombs all over the place too. I don't mind so much - we're all passionate about politics so it's natural to get a bit hot under the collar when things aren't going our way.
Technically BigG is not a boomer so quite right to call you out
Thank you and at 80+ I wish I was able to be defined as a boomer
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Panic mode? 😆 Labour are now a pack of dogs feasting on a wounded animal.
And the real pain for the poor creature is knowing it wounded itself.
That happened in 2019. Remember Rory the (by then ex) Tory's takedown of Bozza?
Johnson is after all the most accomplished liar in public life – perhaps the best liar ever to serve as prime minister. Some of this may have been a natural talent – but a lifetime of practice and study has allowed him to uncover new possibilities which go well beyond all the classifications of dishonesty attempted by classical theorists like St Augustine. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and the half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie, and the bullshit lie – which may inadvertently be true.
And as an alumnus of Vote Leave and BoJo's cabinets, it's pretty clear who Rishi learned to do politics from. Johnson may be gone, but it's going to take a while to purge his residue from the Conservative body.
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Labour lash out after debate pasting. Spinny spin spin
Spinny spin spin 😆 an example of which is “after debate pasting” where the debate polling now in and all its detail is giving a clear win to Starmer.
That’s the most ugly bad for democracy thing about these hour long blip debates, it’s about who gets to the microphone first to declare victory and who wins the brawl in the spinny spin spin room.
There was very little there to actually help voters.
Starmer shared very little about actual policy and what he would actually do, and just about everything Sunak said, from fall in NHS lists, fall in boat crossing, Labours tax plans, was all made up bare faced lying.
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Calling out a liar is not panic.
Do you agree that Sunak is a liar?
He is a politician and I doubt he will back down on the substantive claim
It sounds like you are a politician with weasel words like that!
I think you are agreeing that Sunak is a liar. About tax. About immigration. About NHS waiting lists. Even about bloody Park Runs and Spoons fry-ups, ffs!
Research by the Dutch health service GGD shows that acceptance of LGBT+ people is dropping dramatically among young people. The figures from Amsterdam don't lie. Only 43% of young people say they accept homosexuality, compared to 69% two years ago. Among boys, only a third find homosexuality acceptable, while among girls, roughly half have this opinion.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
Did you believe him?
If so why he is an inveterate liar on par with BJ
I wouldn't be surprised if we find at some point some close family member had private dental treatment. Not only is it a weird thing to say, it feels like a hostage to fortune.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
I think extended interviews are far better. But that requires a very good interviewer, which there aren't many and the MSM don't do interviews, they do gotchas. And of course politicians who aren't idiots run a mile from an Andrew Neil, who can do this.
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
I think long form interviews are very useful, however I do worry that the style of Andrew Neil is problematic. I mean it can be entertaining watching him squash a hapless politician like a bug but I think I’d prefer someone who would allow a politician to develop an argument and quietly pick it apart rather than the more hectoring approach Neil adopts.
I think the soft sofa interviews get far more out of politicians than Andrew Neil's aggressive style.
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Many moons ago the company I worked for was involved in a public and acrimonious dispute with its main competitor. While the troops were keen to “stick it to them for their lies” wiser heads prevailed. “Two whores brawling in public will do none of us any good”.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
I think extended interviews are far better. But that requires a very good interviewer, which there aren't many and the MSM don't do interviews, they do gotchas. And of course politicians who aren't idiots run a mile from an Andrew Neil, who can do this.
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
I think long form interviews are very useful, however I do worry that the style of Andrew Neil is problematic. I mean it can be entertaining watching him squash a hapless politician like a bug but I think I’d prefer someone who would allow a politician to develop an argument and quietly pick it apart rather than the more hectoring approach Neil adopts.
I think thats fair. You need somebody who is on top of the detail though. Hardly anybody in MSM is. Its either gotchas or interruptions. There is a middle ground of letting people speak, but once they have, exposing their BS if they have been spouting it.
Research by the Dutch health service GGD shows that acceptance of LGBT+ people is dropping dramatically among young people. The figures from Amsterdam don't lie. Only 43% of young people say they accept homosexuality, compared to 69% two years ago. Among boys, only a third find homosexuality acceptable, while among girls, roughly half have this opinion.
5 million watched last nights debate (i wasn't one of them). I seem to remember when we first got debates it was over 10 million.
Well novelty is always attractive. The fact that after a decade and a half nobody has found a way to make them work properly is why viewing is down. Nobody wants an hour long sound bite off with everyone moderator included looking for a gotcha moment.
I think extended interviews are far better. But that requires a very good interviewer, which there aren't many and the MSM don't do interviews, they do gotchas. And of course politicians who aren't idiots run a mile from an Andrew Neil, who can do this.
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
I think long form interviews are very useful, however I do worry that the style of Andrew Neil is problematic. I mean it can be entertaining watching him squash a hapless politician like a bug but I think I’d prefer someone who would allow a politician to develop an argument and quietly pick it apart rather than the more hectoring approach Neil adopts.
I think the soft sofa interviews get far more out of politicians than Andrew Neil's aggressive style.
If doesn't have to be soft. Iain Dale take down of Nick Griffin was an example of how to do. He didn't just shout racist at him, he said ok, so tell me some of your policies and it rapidly when to shit as nothing followed logically.
“Rishi Sunak lied to the British public” - Labour on the £2k tax claim.
I listened to a conservative adviser this morning who said that the party is delighted with the row as it takes Labour's NHS arguments off the table and highlights Labour and taxation and the longer it is drawn out the more they are content to discuss it
Looks as if you are playing into their hands on this
Big G, you'll remember 1992 and Jennifer's Ear. Labour were happy to have the debate on the NHS, it's normally home turf for the red team, just like taxation is good terrain for the blues. That skirmish didn't work out too well for Labour then and I don't think this will work out well for the Conservatives. The Prime Minister lying directly to the public is not a good look.
You forget that Labour accuse the conservatives of a 49 billion hole over NI which if we are talking of lying is the same as will be seen when the manifesto are published
When did Labour pretend that number came from HM Treasury?
It is still lie
No, it's not a lie, the assumptions are laid out and it's clearly a "if the Conservatives do this" then it will cost £49b. You can counter that by saying "That's not what we're intending to do" or something like that, but it's not a lie.
Saying that your numbers have come from HM Treasury when HM Treasury says the numbers don't come from them and they have asked Sunak not to say the numbers came from them is a lie. I'm surprised that you seem so chilled about it.
Why didn't Starmer reject it immediately as the letter had been received a couple of days before the debate
And frankly all politicians are economic with the truth but from the Conservative point of view this has raised Labour and tax to the top of the agenda and not the NHS
And by the way Labour will raise taxes and substantially
You might have got away with that post six hours ago! 😃
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
Hang on. Were you not ramping the debate - and specifically the £2k attack - as a "game changer"?
True that, same with the VAT on Private Schools policy.
I should have mailed the “aspiration” argument to the Marx Bothers, for amount of damage Sunak made when the VAT on private schools question DID come up. Don’t criticise my role, it’s not my fault Rishi is shit at politics.
All Rishi could think about last night was tax. If the last question was on favourite fast food, Sunak would have used it to argue against Labours fast food tax. Labours tax on your whopper will make a great headline.
Labours tax on our junk food meals and deliveries is an absolute disgrace, by the way.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
Erm, not true sorry. The simple problem with our system is that many hospital consultants are working both privately and for the NHS. There is a perverse incentive for them to keep waiting lists long. That way patients will use their private health insurance to get a referral sooner with the same consultant who has been trained by the NHS and should be seeing them on the NHS . If your family is covered this would mean that a child who had a suspected condition would get to see a consultant faster and therefore might have a higher survival rate due to that.
The hospital consultants (who claim they are so overworked and clever that they need to be paid many times more than other healthcare workers) somehow manage to do private consultations alongside their job with the NHS that pays them as much or more than similarly qualified other professionals.
It does not apply to all doctors, but many are the most entitled people in our society and yet the public (and the media) give them a completely free ride.
Anybody been following today's procedings before the PO Inquiry?
I had never previously understood how central former Chairperson Alice Perkins was to the whole conspiracy. She was clearly the driving force behind the manoeuvres to prevent the Scandal becoming public.
The whole business makes a lot more sense now this has been laid bare.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
We see it all the time, where there are treatments only available in say US. They aren't licensed here and there is some charity drive to raise the money to send them.
But, even on the lesser note. Things like hips / knees, the wait list is years on NHS. And things like NHS dentistry doesn't over everything or won't get to you for a very very long time.
As I said, the easy answer is
"As PM I will improve the NHS, people shouldn't be having to make these decisions, but I understand that family is the most important thing and thus why people pay to go private. I support the NHS, I believe in the NHS, but there are very rare circumstances where if forced I am very fortunate to be able to make such a decision to help a family member. "
That to me seems the normal human response.
I agree that is a better answer, but I think Starmer really meant it. It wasn't probed or further explored, nor for that matter was Sunaks "yes".
I am generally very sceptical of campaigns to fund treatment abroad that are not available here. Very often they are quackery or unproven.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
We see it all the time, where there are treatments only available in say US. They aren't licensed here and there is some charity drive to raise the money to send them.
But, even on the lesser note. Things like hips / knees, the wait list is years on NHS. And things like NHS dentistry doesn't over everything or won't get to you for a very very long time.
As I said, the easy answer is
"As PM I will improve the NHS, people shouldn't be having to make these decisions, but I understand that family is the most important thing and thus why people pay to go private. I support the NHS, I believe in the NHS, but there are very rare circumstances where if forced I am very fortunate to be able to make such a decision to help a family member. "
That to me seems the normal human response.
I agree that is a better answer, but I think Starmer really meant it. It wasn't probed or further explored, nor for that matter was Sunaks "yes".
I am generally very sceptical of campaigns to fund treatment abroad that are not available here. Very often they are quackery or unproven.
That was my point. I think so too. Starmer is that idealogical he would never entertain that. I find that personally baffling and a little concerning. The best leaders aren't purely ideology, they are practical.
Wes Stretting has suggested numerous times that we should be using private providers to get down waiting lists etc, is Starmer ideologically opposed to that as well? Blair was comfortable with this approach.
Having not watched the debate only snippets, I thought one of the weirdest / face slipping thing was Starmer saying no he would never use private health.
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
What condition do you have in mind that would kill your children, but is treatable only privately?
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
We see it all the time, where there are treatments only available in say US. They aren't licensed here and there is some charity drive to raise the money to send them.
But, even on the lesser note. Things like hips / knees, the wait list is years on NHS. And things like NHS dentistry doesn't over everything or won't get to you for a very very long time.
As I said, the easy answer is
"As PM I will improve the NHS, people shouldn't be having to make these decisions, but I understand that family is the most important thing and thus why people pay to go private. I support the NHS, I believe in the NHS, but there are very rare circumstances where if forced I am very fortunate to be able to make such a decision to help a family member. "
That to me seems the normal human response.
I agree that is a better answer, but I think Starmer really meant it. It wasn't probed or further explored, nor for that matter was Sunaks "yes".
I am generally very sceptical of campaigns to fund treatment abroad that are not available here. Very often they are quackery or unproven.
Oh dear; British medical professional exceptionalism. Bloody foreigners eh?
If this thread is going to cross 2000 replies, hurrah!
Friday night is Farage night it would seem - that might get some more viewers than last night's performance.
As others have said, mid to late June presents an embarrassment of riches for those seeking entertainment - Ascot, Glastonbury, Euro 2024, the General Election, decorating a spare bedroom to name but five.
That's why we've not had a GE in an even number year since 1992 (and that was in April). 1970 was the last "summer" election in an even numbered year - that didn't end well for a Government defending a large majority (in seats if not votes).
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
Seems they are in real panic mode
Really? Labour can now spend the next 4 weeks calling Rishi a liar - and has multiple bits of evidence to back it up.
I would call that just about the worst position possible for a politician to be in..
So you think a politician calling another politician a liar is going to persuade the public, when the general consensus is they all are the same
Being honest I think your love of the Tory party is completely impossible to understand.
Why - I am a one nation conservative and my party has lost its way
That doesn't mean that I will suddenly vote for another party, rather than try to influence my party to return to sanity and the centre
Your party hasn't so much lost it's way as been taking over (slowly) by a group of right wing clueless (often facist) loonies. Remember that prior to 2019 I voted Conservative - I was very much a centralist Tory but Bozo destroyed that in August - October 2019 and you amongst various others ignored the fact.
I'm going to be blunt but the best thing for the current Tory party is for it to be completely destroyed so that a new centralist right wing party can be formed from it's remains...
Research by the Dutch health service GGD shows that acceptance of LGBT+ people is dropping dramatically among young people. The figures from Amsterdam don't lie. Only 43% of young people say they accept homosexuality, compared to 69% two years ago. Among boys, only a third find homosexuality acceptable, while among girls, roughly half have this opinion.
That feels very much like a dodgy bit of research and I'd want to know the methodology and any changes to it. Attitudes shift over time to things like homosexuality, but do so slowly if you look at polling in any country. A huge movement in two years screams "data problem" as opposed to "social change".
Comments
Which is why no-one really wants to talk about tax and spending because the reality is messy and way too complex for most people's attention spans.
Sunak's problem is that the party have gone to town with a pre-briefed attack line £2k tax rise - and have been caught lying their face off. Which considering the massive damage to themselves done by all the previous lies is a bit stupid really.
Way too late, I see.
The Treasury is furious part of it was put through them, the rest added by Conservative Party and passed off as being Treasury facts. And the electorate are pissed off with same old Tories always lying. The comparison with the £350M a week bus that fooled so many with dodgy maths, is absolutely toxic, like in “you fooled me once, you ain’t ******* fooling me twice with same stunt.”
This can really hurt the Tory campaign all through to polling day now, Labour are demanding a public apology for the lie.
I have been telling you SKS is a wa***r since 2020
But Labour are the ones who have a problem really, as they're going to be the ones in power. They will be increasing taxes, or heaping up borrowing even more.
If we had a media with a brain in their collective head they might just understand how party first, country second Labour were in 2010, or the Conservatives are now.
There's no point in them having a separate party front but being the same party underneath, otherwise.
How about PB_Lefties are being upset with the Prime Minister lying because we don't think the Prime Minister should be lying. It's not a partisan thing - we were as unhappy with Blair lying over Iraq as we are Sunak lying about this.
https://x.com/Available4Panto/status/1798289158794019172
Any negotiation is pointless until Putin is obliged to abandon his ambition to restore the Russian empire.
Otherwise all you're negotiating is a pause.
If PB are short of moderators and editors, they can bring a whole load of candidates to an island, that has the ability to never be found and can move itself, and then surreptitiously put them through a series of challenges and tests. Occasionally a column of smoke that makes noise of a New York taxi could kill one of them, which sounds harsh, but never mind.
So many people actually live on here 24/7, vast majority of those in retirement, and a few might even be grown up enough to allowed to be moderator/troll slayer.
It is a general election campaign with just 4 weeks to go and all Sunak can do is to appeal to his 2019 voters to mitigate his loses and on that he did it successfully last night
The Treasury didn't write a letter saying "Don't use the gross figure"
Thinking about the core sin of Sunak's tactics here... Suppose he had foregone the "HM Treasury" bit of his message? Got party hacks, or a tame think tank to crunch the numbers? It would have been weaker, sure, but still good enough for campaign purposes. After all, the big bus number came from Dominic Cummings's bottom, not a government source, and that still worked.
As it is, Rishi has lied in a fairly simple to understand way. If anyone is paying attention, that's pretty fatal.
The other, perhaps more pertinent one, is what else is Sunak lying about ?
Though as he'll not be on government shortly, perhaps not.
Actually no really interesting questions have yet been asked, or answered.
Labour really going for the PM's character now, on the back of the £2,000 tax row.
Now accusing him of telling a "bare faced lie" last night about the number of small boat crossings.
@REWearmouth
Starmer’s team aggressively fighting back now & calling Sunak a liar over claims he made about small boats
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clmmdn7dry7o
Rishi Sunak lied to you about partygate.
His election campaign is built on lies.
He lied on NHS waiting lists. Small boats. The cost of living.
You just can't trust him.
https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1798326299620159887
Spinny spin spin
It's not like it was his job or anything...
Labour would be better off just hammering home how much the average family’s tax bill has gone up since last election and repeat that figure and say that if they need to raise taxes to fix the Tory mess they will regretfully have to but not as much as the Tories did.
Though it does mean you'd need to take another injection!
Just not apologies but not mention it or use it on anything anywhere. If they doubled down on it, continue to run with it, that’s like digging when in a hole. They won’t be flagging £2,000 a year labour tax bombshell, they will be flagging up “look at us, we’re still fluently lying at you!”
What never, you kids are dying, you can only get that treatment privately and your idealogical purity would override that? That isn't the same as doing a Diane Abbott and sending your kids private after railing against private education (that isn't life and death).
Even lesser than that, your kid is in agony, lets say had an accident and smashed in face / teeth. You wouldn't pay for a private dentist to sort it tomorrow, rather than have to wait months (and may never get the full treatment via NHS dentist). Same with hips / knees, the pain from that for many old people is life limiting.
Surely the easy answer is we need to make the NHS better, it fails too many people, so even normal people are being faced with these decisions, that they should never have to....
This has more potential because Sunak has made it a presidential campaign. Where is Hunt? Cleverly? Cameron?
I would call that just about the worst position possible for a politician to be in..
John Rentoul is forever despairing at its use.
Its all a bit cornered rat.
I think it only needs one Labour assembly member to not back him?
How cross are Labour allowed to get?
(And as a wider question... Even if people don't want Starmer to win, or don't want him to win big... There's still a line that it's not OK to cross isn't there?
Somewhere around "you don't have to tell the whole truth, you can be misleadingly partial, but you don't tell an untruth."
That line does still exist... Doesn't it?)
And the real pain for the poor creature is knowing it wounded itself.
It is right that he is being called out for this in the most robust manner possible.
I.e. "You're a fecking liar, Sunak!"
Odd.
But the £2000 will be in the back of people's minds so if taxes are increased in October / November to most people it won't be a massive surprise...
An hour interview provides a lot more light than heat.
Thought not. They are going to be shocked, shocked at what they find, aren't they? Who could have guessed that a country that borrows £20bn a month needs more tax revenue?
I mean its not like that amounts to £571 per taxpayer (assuming 35m tax payers) FOR THE SINGLE MONTH, is it?
I am so sick of this contrived crap.
Do you agree that Sunak is a liar?
"He is a liar" front
SKS pledges/ missions/ early plans all turn out to be lies (mainly deliberate)
If so why he is an inveterate liar on par with BJ
Technically BigG is not a boomer so quite right to call you out
If I’m worried about a concerning symptom and I have to wait longer using the NHS damn right if I had the money would I go private, to get it looked at quicker.
Yes I understand the argument that people shouldn’t need to but as others say it is about making sure the public option is so good there is little need to rely on private solutions.
I can't think of one.
Indeed paediatric services are generally very poor privately as few private hospitals can meet the CQC approval for children.
oops.
But, even on the lesser note. Things like hips / knees, the wait list is years on NHS. And things like NHS dentistry doesn't over everything or won't get to you for a very very long time.
As I said, the easy answer is
"As PM I will improve the NHS, people shouldn't be having to make these decisions, but I understand that family is the most important thing and thus why people pay to go private. I support the NHS, I believe in the NHS, but there are very rare circumstances where if forced I am very fortunate to be able to make such a decision to help a family member. "
That to me seems the normal human response.
Johnson is after all the most accomplished liar in public life – perhaps the best liar ever to serve as prime minister. Some of this may have been a natural talent – but a lifetime of practice and study has allowed him to uncover new possibilities which go well beyond all the classifications of dishonesty attempted by classical theorists like St Augustine. He has mastered the use of error, omission, exaggeration, diminution, equivocation and flat denial. He has perfected casuistry, circumlocution, false equivalence and false analogy. He is equally adept at the ironic jest, the fib and the grand lie; the weasel word and the half-truth; the hyperbolic lie, the obvious lie, and the bullshit lie – which may inadvertently be true.
And as an alumnus of Vote Leave and BoJo's cabinets, it's pretty clear who Rishi learned to do politics from. Johnson may be gone, but it's going to take a while to purge his residue from the Conservative body.
That’s the most ugly bad for democracy thing about these hour long blip debates, it’s about who gets to the microphone first to declare victory and who wins the brawl in the spinny spin spin room.
There was very little there to actually help voters.
Starmer shared very little about actual policy and what he would actually do, and just about everything Sunak said, from fall in NHS lists, fall in boat crossing, Labours tax plans, was all made up bare faced lying.
I think you are agreeing that Sunak is a liar. About tax. About immigration. About NHS waiting lists. Even about bloody Park Runs and Spoons fry-ups, ffs!
https://www.out.tv/nieuws/minder-dan-helft-amsterdamse-jongeren-accepteert-homoseksualiteit
Research by the Dutch health service GGD shows that acceptance of LGBT+ people is dropping dramatically among young people. The figures from Amsterdam don't lie. Only 43% of young people say they accept homosexuality, compared to 69% two years ago. Among boys, only a third find homosexuality acceptable, while among girls, roughly half have this opinion.
That doesn't mean that I will suddenly vote for another party, rather than try to influence my party to return to sanity and the centre
All Rishi could think about last night was tax. If the last question was on favourite fast food, Sunak would have used it to argue against Labours fast food tax. Labours tax on your whopper will make a great headline.
Labours tax on our junk food meals and deliveries is an absolute disgrace, by the way.
The hospital consultants (who claim they are so overworked and clever that they need to be paid many times more than other healthcare workers) somehow manage to do private consultations alongside their job with the NHS that pays them as much or more than similarly qualified other professionals.
It does not apply to all doctors, but many are the most entitled people in our society and yet the public (and the media) give them a completely free ride.
I had never previously understood how central former Chairperson Alice Perkins was to the whole conspiracy. She was clearly the driving force behind the manoeuvres to prevent the Scandal becoming public.
The whole business makes a lot more sense now this has been laid bare.
I am generally very sceptical of campaigns to fund treatment abroad that are not available here. Very often they are quackery or unproven.
Wes Stretting has suggested numerous times that we should be using private providers to get down waiting lists etc, is Starmer ideologically opposed to that as well? Blair was comfortable with this approach.
If this thread is going to cross 2000 replies, hurrah!
Friday night is Farage night it would seem - that might get some more viewers than last night's performance.
As others have said, mid to late June presents an embarrassment of riches for those seeking entertainment - Ascot, Glastonbury, Euro 2024, the General Election, decorating a spare bedroom to name but five.
That's why we've not had a GE in an even number year since 1992 (and that was in April). 1970 was the last "summer" election in an even numbered year - that didn't end well for a Government defending a large majority (in seats if not votes).
I'm going to be blunt but the best thing for the current Tory party is for it to be completely destroyed so that a new centralist right wing party can be formed from it's remains...
Answer. “ He is a politician and I doubt he will back down on the substantive claim.”
That is a great answer 🙂