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RFK Jr’s ratings – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,128
    Andy_JS said:

    "Briefing | In the worst case

    Why America is vulnerable to a despot
    Its democratic system is not as robust as it seems"

    https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/05/16/americas-democratic-system-is-not-as-robust-as-it-seems

    No it isn't - and unlike 2020, this time the anti-democratic forces have prepared themselves, and their base, far more heavily than they did previously.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,624
    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937
    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,578
    edited May 19
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Probably a draw tbh

    That would have been too much of an obvious cop out.
    The first judge scored it right, 116-113, the other two that were 113-114 in either direction were obviously watching a diffferent fight.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,057
    Farooq said:

    Rereading that Orwell piece, I'm struck by how starkly miserable he is as a writer. I really don't enjoy reading his stuff. Yes, there're clever and quotable gems in there and the vision is wonderful. But it's all so fucking dour.
    Better to read Heller. You get the cleverness but it's enjoyable too. Reading Orwell is like eating plain celery for lunch, every lunch, from now until the day you die. It's probably doing you some good, but you'll want to take a claw hammer to your own sphenoid within a week.

    The only exception to that, in my opinion, is Down and Out in London and Paris which is quite entertaining in parts. Re Heller, I didn't get beyond page 5 of his most famous book. I'll try again some other time.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,839
    I scored the fight a draw. But the fact is Usyk would have stopped Fury in the 9th had the referee (and the bell) not intervened.

    What a supreme fighter Usyk is. You have to hand it to him.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,578
    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,057
    edited May 19
    "The Tories are victims of themselves
    It is futile to complain about the consequences of laws they have established or upheld

    Fred de Fossard"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/the-tories-are-victims-of-themselves/
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,609
    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    I'm going to find it difficult to believe anything in the Telegraph ever again after the 52mph cyclist debacle (which they put on the front page).

    I always buy a physical paper before I get on a long train journey (the only time I do). Rotate between the Times, Guardian and Telegraph, but in the latter I can't tolerate the nonsense long enough to get to the good stuff any more.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,295



    Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.

    RAF Gibraltar (such as it is) is a hangar with somewhere to plug a kettle in on the north side of the aerodrome. Frontex will be at the civilian airport on the south side. It's nothing to do with the RAF.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,220

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
    Except we have very similar industrial policy now, yet our trade deficit with the EU is reducing.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937
    WillG said:

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
    Except we have very similar industrial policy now, yet our trade deficit with the EU is reducing.
    Because we are importing more from elsewhere due to the demise of friction free trade. We have not increased our level of trade with the EU.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937

    WillG said:

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
    Except we have very similar industrial policy now, yet our trade deficit with the EU is reducing.
    Because we are importing more from elsewhere due to the demise of friction free trade. We have not increased our level of trade with the EU.
    Statistically our exports are growing, but within the top line export figure hides a lie

    https://theconversation.com/the-uk-has-surged-to-become-one-of-the-biggest-exporters-in-the-world-but-this-isnt-all-good-news-230241
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,109
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: working on the pre-race tosh now, but some news worth knowing ahead of that: Piastri has a 3 place grid penalty for impeding Magnussen, losing him his front row start.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/piastri-loses-front-row-grid-slot-after-penalty-for-impeding-magnussen.66AzYMEkT7Qp6Twb7Dv5lI
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,109
    Betting Post

    F1: backed under 17.5 classified finishers at 2.15. Not the most exciting bet but my planned Piastri each way was altered rather by the penalty.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2024/05/imola-pre-race-2024.html
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,195
    edited May 19
    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    Completely insane even by the standards of the 'new' Telegraph! Reds under the beds.....let's all check
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,195
    edited May 19
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    I'm going to find it difficult to believe anything in the Telegraph ever again after the 52mph cyclist debacle (which they put on the front page).

    I always buy a physical paper before I get on a long train journey (the only time I do). Rotate between the Times, Guardian and Telegraph, but in the latter I can't tolerate the nonsense long enough to get to the good stuff any more.
    Check out the byline Natalie Lisbona.

    Whatever happened to the Sunday Sport?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,170

    Oh, and while we're here:

    🚨 New polling with @ObserverUK

    Labour lead is now 18 points:
    · Labour 43% (+3)
    · Conservatives 25% (+1)
    · Lib Dems 9% (-2)
    · SNP 3% (n/c)
    · Greens 7% (n/c)
    · Reform 10% (-2)

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1791906610761069031

    Quite a few of the polls with smaller Labour leads have shown an increase in that lead since the locals. Most likely it's a post-election bounce that will dissipate, but it takes us that much closer to the election without the Tories closing the gap.
    Isn’t there a moment in The Deer Hunter, when they look at each other and say, what if this is it?

    What if “likely it's a post-election bounce that will dissipate” doesn’t happen. What if the Reform melt breaking 50/50 between Con and Lab is as good as its going to get for the Conservatives?

    What if a swingback adjusted poll we now know isn’t 25-43 but 22-46 unadjusted (as Peter Kelner told us) giving us less than 100 Tory seats on UNS even before any tactical vote makes seat count worse, really is it.

    What if going into a winter election led by someone richer than the King of England doesn’t gain any swingback from this position, and all those historically Conservative Blue Wall seats really are going red and yellow?

    What if, this really is it?
    Yes. If you look at my comment history you'll see that I explore a wide range of possibilities with my comments.

    I forwarded the idea that telling pollsters they were voting Reform was a stepping stone for 2019 Tory voters on a journey to voting Labour at the next GE.

    Lots of things are possible.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,586
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    Completely insane even by the standards of the 'new' Telegraph! Reds under the beds.....let's all check
    Why is it 'insane'?

    Russia - and to a lesser extent China - want to destabilise the west. And such protests are an ideal way of doing it (as were the never-ending Brexit arguments...).

    Earlier this week, I posted a link showing that in the 70s and 80s, Russia spread anti-western and anti-Semitic content - including the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - throughout the Middle East. Mow, Russia are flying in immigrants and taking them to the border with Poland and other states, in order to provide pressure on those countries. I would not be surprised if they were behind much of the cross-Channel shenanigans as well.

    Russia and China may not be involving themselves with these protests; but it's hardly 'insane' to think that they might be.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,241
    @camillahmturner

    🛑 Wes Streeting has one message for possible defectors: “My DMs are open".

    He reveals he is talking to multiple MPs from the moderate One Nation faction of the Conservative Party who are wrestling with their conscience over whether to cross the floor

    The Shadow Health Secretary says One Nation Tories he is speaking to face a dilhemma - do they "stay and fight" to turn their own party around?

    Or do they "roll up their sleeves" and join Labour?

    My full interview with Wes Streeting is in this week's Sunday
    @Telegraph
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,195

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    Completely insane even by the standards of the 'new' Telegraph! Reds under the beds.....let's all check
    Why is it 'insane'?

    Russia - and to a lesser extent China - want to destabilise the west. And such protests are an ideal way of doing it (as were the never-ending Brexit arguments...).

    Earlier this week, I posted a link showing that in the 70s and 80s, Russia spread anti-western and anti-Semitic content - including the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - throughout the Middle East. Mow, Russia are flying in immigrants and taking them to the border with Poland and other states, in order to provide pressure on those countries. I would not be surprised if they were behind much of the cross-Channel shenanigans as well.

    Russia and China may not be involving themselves with these protests; but it's hardly 'insane' to think that they might be.
    Even if you were prepared to give that nonsense house room wouldn't you question the fact it was written by an Israeli based in Tel Aviv with access to the innermost thoughts of British intelligence?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,170

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
    It *is* more to do with British economic policy over the last 45 years, but that just demonstrates that if you want to improve the British economy you have to sort out British economic policy. Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,241

    Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.

    Brexit was a bet against Geography. Geography won.

    Having millions of customers (and suppliers) on our doorstep is in fact the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937
    edited May 19

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    It's not that we cannot survive outside the EU. We obviously can, it's just an unnecessary handicap, like dragging a ball and chain everywhere.

    We gain a lot of freedoms back by Rejoining.

    We can probably survive outside.

    We can thrive (again) as members.
    Hmm. I'm not sure people realise the subtle changes in the EU since we left. The German economy is having issues with increased oil and gas prices impacting their chemical and manufacturing industry, and reduced sales of equipment to China. France is becoming more powerful, but so are the eastern European nations. I'm not sure they would want us back or it would be at a price worth paying. We really might have to address our problems at home first - low growth and productivity, lack of food and energy security, high taxation that isn't giving us the social benefits that it should, and an NHS that really is not delivering the health outcomes it should for the money spent.

    I'm starting to think that (shudder) Liz Truss was right in the sense that a stopped clock is sometimes right. We need growth. Badly. How do we get it?
    Join the single market.
    Membership of the single market delivered a record trade deficit.
    That might have more to do with UK industrial policy over the last 45 years. Have single market members West Germany and latterly the unified Germany been running trade deficits over the last 30 or 40 years?

    I do love your proclamations, and you've made several this evening. You remind me of Eric Cantona. “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea ".
    It *is* more to do with British economic policy over the last 45 years, but that just demonstrates that if you want to improve the British economy you have to sort out British economic policy. Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
    I never said it was, but frictionless trade with our largest and closest trading partners would certainly help. As that is no longer available the nation will have to be more imaginative as to how it conducts export policy.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,586
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    Completely insane even by the standards of the 'new' Telegraph! Reds under the beds.....let's all check
    Why is it 'insane'?

    Russia - and to a lesser extent China - want to destabilise the west. And such protests are an ideal way of doing it (as were the never-ending Brexit arguments...).

    Earlier this week, I posted a link showing that in the 70s and 80s, Russia spread anti-western and anti-Semitic content - including the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - throughout the Middle East. Mow, Russia are flying in immigrants and taking them to the border with Poland and other states, in order to provide pressure on those countries. I would not be surprised if they were behind much of the cross-Channel shenanigans as well.

    Russia and China may not be involving themselves with these protests; but it's hardly 'insane' to think that they might be.
    Even if you were prepared to give that nonsense house room wouldn't you question the fact it was written by an Israeli based in Tel Aviv with access to the innermost thoughts of British intelligence?
    Even liars can occasionally tell the truth, especially when it suits them. The claim is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

    My wider point remains: this is exactly the sort of sh*t that the Russians in particular do. e.g.:
    https://ecre.org/eu-eastern-borders-migrants-along-belarus-polish-border-suffer-as-winter-sets-in-amid-extension-of-internal-border-checks-along-poland-slovakia-border-hungary-launches-another-anti-eu-national-consu/
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,586
    In Israel news:

    "Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz has threatened to resign unless Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sets out a post-war plan for the Gaza Strip.
    ...
    "If you put the national over personal, you will find in us partners in the struggle," he said. "But if you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss, we will be forced to quit the government.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cekkz82gnzgo
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,170
    Scott_xP said:

    Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.

    Brexit was a bet against Geography. Geography won.

    Having millions of customers (and suppliers) on our doorstep is in fact the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
    My argument isn't that EU membership has no economic benefit.

    My argument is only that the benefit of EU membership is smaller than the benefit that would accrue if government policy succeeded in: increasing business investment, increasing investment in public infrastructure, reduced living expenses (and more generally reduced the cost base of doing business in Britain), improved the skills of British workers, etc.

    These seem to have been problems before Britain was an EEC/EU member, during our membership, and now after our membership.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937

    In Israel news:

    "Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz has threatened to resign unless Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sets out a post-war plan for the Gaza Strip.
    ...
    "If you put the national over personal, you will find in us partners in the struggle," he said. "But if you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss, we will be forced to quit the government.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cekkz82gnzgo

    What point are you making?

    The World would be a safer place with Benny Gantz out of power.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,166

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,195
    edited May 19

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, it’s finally dawning on the mainstream media, that all of these “Palestine” protests are not quite as organic as they want you to believe.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/russia-china-manipulate-uk-public-opinion-pro-palestine/

    Completely insane even by the standards of the 'new' Telegraph! Reds under the beds.....let's all check
    Why is it 'insane'?

    Russia - and to a lesser extent China - want to destabilise the west. And such protests are an ideal way of doing it (as were the never-ending Brexit arguments...).

    Earlier this week, I posted a link showing that in the 70s and 80s, Russia spread anti-western and anti-Semitic content - including the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - throughout the Middle East. Mow, Russia are flying in immigrants and taking them to the border with Poland and other states, in order to provide pressure on those countries. I would not be surprised if they were behind much of the cross-Channel shenanigans as well.

    Russia and China may not be involving themselves with these protests; but it's hardly 'insane' to think that they might be.
    Even if you were prepared to give that nonsense house room wouldn't you question the fact it was written by an Israeli based in Tel Aviv with access to the innermost thoughts of British intelligence?
    Even liars can occasionally tell the truth, especially when it suits them. The claim is certainly within the bounds of possibility.

    My wider point remains: this is exactly the sort of sh*t that the Russians in particular do. e.g.:
    https://ecre.org/eu-eastern-borders-migrants-along-belarus-polish-border-suffer-as-winter-sets-in-amid-extension-of-internal-border-checks-along-poland-slovakia-border-hungary-launches-another-anti-eu-national-consu/
    Why are you comparing an article in a house magazine distributed by a pressure group with a news story in what purports to be a serious newspaper?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,805
    Dura_Ace said:



    Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.

    RAF Gibraltar (such as it is) is a hangar with somewhere to plug a kettle in on the north side of the aerodrome. Frontex will be at the civilian airport on the south side. It's nothing to do with the RAF.
    No, RAF Gibraltar is a joint civil-military base. The civilian air terminal is on the north side adjacent to the air traffic control tower, which is labelled RAF Gibraltar; it's owned by the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and the aerodrome is operated by the RAF. The hangar is actually on the south side. And it's perfectly large enough to accommodate aircraft.

    When did you last go to Gibraltar, or have you never gone?

    The point is that most (almost all) passengers currently transiting through RAF Gibraltar are Britons visiting fellow Britons (I include Gibraltarians in that) and vice-versa. It's the lifeline. The link. It'd be an outrage for their free movement through our territory to be subject to humourless proto-Junckers, Schinas's and Selmayrs in Frontex, covered in their crap blue outfits and carrying a service weapon, whilst shaking our people down for ETIAs, fingerprints, and visas - and deciding who comes in and who doesn't.

    The Spanish can keep coming through the main frontier border, just as they do today, maybe with a "Gibraltar access pass/visa" that makes it easier if they work there routinely. The same can operate in reverse.

    No smudging of the airport. No Schengen. No deal.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937

    Scott_xP said:

    Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.

    Brexit was a bet against Geography. Geography won.

    Having millions of customers (and suppliers) on our doorstep is in fact the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
    My argument isn't that EU membership has no economic benefit.

    My argument is only that the benefit of EU membership is smaller than the benefit that would accrue if government policy succeeded in: increasing business investment, increasing investment in public infrastructure, reduced living expenses (and more generally reduced the cost base of doing business in Britain), improved the skills of British workers, etc.

    These seem to have been problems before Britain was an EEC/EU member, during our membership, and now after our membership.
    Back in the early days of our membership you may recall we were the sick man of Europe and as such we had European Social Fund investment to attract new tertiary manufacturing to replace primary industries that were dying on their arse. That has now all but gone, but it kept the wolf from the door for a while longer than it otherwise might.

    If I could turn back time I would try to persuade Thatcher that allowing and encouraging foreign ownership of UK companies was a bad idea. It didn't bring the investment anticipated, quite the reverse. Our assets were stripped and the best bits taken home by the foreign owners.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,805

    Scott_xP said:

    Rejoining the EU is not the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.

    Brexit was a bet against Geography. Geography won.

    Having millions of customers (and suppliers) on our doorstep is in fact the most important determinant of whether the UK succeeds as an economy over the next few decades.
    My argument isn't that EU membership has no economic benefit.

    My argument is only that the benefit of EU membership is smaller than the benefit that would accrue if government policy succeeded in: increasing business investment, increasing investment in public infrastructure, reduced living expenses (and more generally reduced the cost base of doing business in Britain), improved the skills of British workers, etc.

    These seem to have been problems before Britain was an EEC/EU member, during our membership, and now after our membership.
    It comes down to Values.

    That's what this is about.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,586

    In Israel news:

    "Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz has threatened to resign unless Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sets out a post-war plan for the Gaza Strip.
    ...
    "If you put the national over personal, you will find in us partners in the struggle," he said. "But if you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss, we will be forced to quit the government.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cekkz82gnzgo

    What point are you making?

    The World would be a safer place with Benny Gantz out of power.
    I am not making any point; I don't believe I editorialised. It does seem a noteworthy story about potential splits in the Israeli war cabinet.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,937

    In Israel news:

    "Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz has threatened to resign unless Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sets out a post-war plan for the Gaza Strip.
    ...
    "If you put the national over personal, you will find in us partners in the struggle," he said. "But if you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss, we will be forced to quit the government.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cekkz82gnzgo

    What point are you making?

    The World would be a safer place with Benny Gantz out of power.
    I am not making any point; I don't believe I editorialised. It does seem a noteworthy story about potential splits in the Israeli war cabinet.
    Well that's the point you are making which is a fair one
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