RFK Jr’s ratings – politicalbetting.com
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Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment4 -
FPT (and the continuing discussion of housing): These are questions, not conclusions, since answering them would require far more knowledge than I have about the UK.
Would the problems forming pair bonds in the UK contribute to a housing shortage? And if so, how much?
If fewer couples are forming among young people -- mostly the fault of men -- then it seems likely to me that many starting in life will be living single in an apartment, instead of double. (In the US there is a trend for single women who are doing well enough to start thinking about buying a home when they reach the age of 30, even though they have no prospects of getting married.)0 -
Hey, I lived in Skenfrith House for a few months in the early 1990s, so know what it's like to descend each morning in a lift stinking of p*ss. (*) But there are many blocks around it - 'poorly built', to use your phrase - which people were forced to live in for many decades. One of the problems with 'socialist' architects is that they design properties for people to live in - people other to themselves, that is...AlsoLei said:
Ledbury Estate is a poor comparison because it was badly built, but in general a fashionable area like Peckham will always be far more desirable than an extension of Dorchester.JosiasJessop said:
Meades is the poor man's Nairn. Discuss.Andy_JS said:Jonathan Meades lays into Poundbury at the end of this clip, just a couple of years after it was built.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KJhCbwEcbA
Poundbury will always be an outlier, because of its circumstances and motive. But those brutalist concrete jungles Meades seems to love were an utter failure, both for the people forced to live in them and the nation. Would you prefer to live on the fifth floor of Skenfrith House or on Blackbird Close?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledbury_Estate
Besides, the replacement for Ledbury is being built as we speak! https://www.karakusevic-carson.com/projects/ledbury-estate
The four 13-storey blocks are being replaced by six towers in a range of heights between 6 and 22 storeys - 224 council flats are being replaced by 260, with another 80 for private sale. The resident's group was involved in the design, and it's being built in the 'New London Vernacular' (ie. brick-clad) style that's been in fashion for the past decade, with ground floors housing retail units, a GP's surgery, and a community centre.
This is exactly the sort of project we need much, much more of - and yet all the discussion is around Poundbury!
Sure, build more Poundbury's. Personally, I reckon that it looks like a shit 1980s shopping precinct, but I've no problem with building hundreds more of them if there's demand.
But Ledbury is much more important, and more useful.
A notable exception is the Wyndham Court estate immediately to the north of Southampton Station. When they designed it, they made the architects live in it. But also note that it was built to house 'professionals'; and therefore was built to a higher quality finish. ..
(*) Yes, this was outside the flat...2 -
Shame that this book…Nigelb said:
How the hell was it selected ahead of the CV90 ? For what we've paid we could already have deployed several hundred.viewcode said:Speaking of which, the decades delayed Ajax and Ares are nearly ready to be deployed, honest. Ajax is too big for reconnaissance, too lightly armed to be effective, and insufficiently armoured to fight. Ares is similarly kak. I could continue but you get the point. ☹️
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yq3FUOjWOns
https://amzn.eu/d/iLQZHyX
…costs so much second hand. It explains the exact problem with developing post WWII APCs and how some escape from it.0 -
The Gibraltarians voted to Remain, fearing a harder border. By putting them in quasi-schenghen, we get them no border (for people, they have never been in the customs union, so there is still a border for goods), so it's the right thing to do, if the terms are acceptable.FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
What happens to British people's right to stay in Gib for 6 months, I don't know. I suppose it will have to be reduced to 3 months to comport with Schenghen.
(Reports are that the Spanish are currently playing hardball, requiring hotel reservations to cross the border, which prevents Gibraltarians and British going into La Linea for the evening to get the decent food...)
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We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.1 -
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/0 -
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,2 -
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,0 -
Resolution: learn to spell "Schengen".0
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Whereas you know all of Liz Kendall’s supporters by name?Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,1 -
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.0 -
The only reason they have heard of different legislation in the first place was because of the fury of the London types because the local landlords can't any longer kick the locals out of nice flats near the centre of Edinburgh in Broghton, Marchmont, etc., for Festival time, because protected tenancies etc. You may recall the wailing from the luvvies that it would assuredly mean the decline and collapse of the Fringe in particular.Theuniondivvie said:
If the Tele and Speccie are pushing it that’s good enough for most PBers. See also how much worse the Scottish NHS is than the rUK.Farooq said:
Zero curiosity about this question, then. Just, here's a narrative that will play well to landlords, so we'll just accept it as true. But is it true? Does nobody ever dig into the things they read? Do you just, I dunno, instinctively trust journalists?Farooq said:
Question about the "we already see from Scotland" trope. Where's the data? I looked on the ONS earlier and there was a caveat saying "don't compare this with other countries/regions of the UK, it's not the same." But that dataset was from January. So where's the recent data that's suddenly gotten people talking about it?Richard_Tyndall said:
Council housing. Build lots more council housing.Northern_Al said:It strikes me that the vast majority of PBers, who I assume are owner occupiers, are quick to denigrate any form of rent control, but also don't have any solutions to the problems faced by (young, in particular) renters. Down here on the south coast average private-sector rents are around 56% of take-home pay, rising to over 60% when bills are included. On average pay, this means life is a struggle. And, of course, many rental properties at the lower end are pretty abysmal and/or pokey.
The obvious solution is more house-building, but this a) may not happen, and b) even if it does, will take many years to have an impact. The second solution is to move somewhere cheaper. But for all sorts of reasons - family, friends, work - many people can't, or don't want to, uproot. And of course, the third solution is to buy. But for most young renters down here, you're having a laugh.
So, I'd be genuinely interested if anybody has any practical solutions to the short-term and mid-term rental crisis.
We already see from Scotland that rent controls don't work. They are not the anwer to the problem. The answer is to build more housing on a not for profit basis - Council houses.
So the movers and shakers have to slum it in the outskirts or even commute from your side of the Great Scottish Central Desert.0 -
It's actually like the NI border in the sense that a fudge that works for both sides will be essential if any form of sustainable deal is to be reached. And that means ease of access across the UK-Gibraltar "border" for all forms of British citizen (bear in mind almost all Gibraltarians consider themselves to be as British as Scots, Welsh, NI, Channel Islanders or English, just down in the Med so they don't particularly like any sort of border) as well as ease of access across the La Linea-Gibraltar border, where many of its day-to-day workers come from.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
But, they will never trade anything that leaches sovereignty for ease of day-to-day worker movement. And younger generations of Gibraltarians are even less interested in Spain than their current adults.
When I last went there 2 years ago my taxi driver was complaining that his kids only spoke English, their Spanish was absolutely terrible, and they had no interest in learning it.1 -
There was a poster from Gibraltar on here - @GeoffM – but he was banned for some reason in 2017Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,
0 -
The other problem with large blocks is that they need to be replaced (or modernised) in one go rather than doing it piecemeal.JosiasJessop said:
Hey, I lived in Skenfrith House for a few months in the early 1990s, so know what it's like to descend each morning in a lift stinking of p*ss. (*) But there are many blocks around it - 'poorly built', to use your phrase - which people were forced to live in for many decades. One of the problems with 'socialist' architects is that they design properties for people to live in - people other to themselves, that is...AlsoLei said:
Ledbury Estate is a poor comparison because it was badly built, but in general a fashionable area like Peckham will always be far more desirable than an extension of Dorchester.JosiasJessop said:
Meades is the poor man's Nairn. Discuss.Andy_JS said:Jonathan Meades lays into Poundbury at the end of this clip, just a couple of years after it was built.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KJhCbwEcbA
Poundbury will always be an outlier, because of its circumstances and motive. But those brutalist concrete jungles Meades seems to love were an utter failure, both for the people forced to live in them and the nation. Would you prefer to live on the fifth floor of Skenfrith House or on Blackbird Close?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledbury_Estate
Besides, the replacement for Ledbury is being built as we speak! https://www.karakusevic-carson.com/projects/ledbury-estate
The four 13-storey blocks are being replaced by six towers in a range of heights between 6 and 22 storeys - 224 council flats are being replaced by 260, with another 80 for private sale. The resident's group was involved in the design, and it's being built in the 'New London Vernacular' (ie. brick-clad) style that's been in fashion for the past decade, with ground floors housing retail units, a GP's surgery, and a community centre.
This is exactly the sort of project we need much, much more of - and yet all the discussion is around Poundbury!
Sure, build more Poundbury's. Personally, I reckon that it looks like a shit 1980s shopping precinct, but I've no problem with building hundreds more of them if there's demand.
But Ledbury is much more important, and more useful.
A notable exception is the Wyndham Court estate immediately to the north of Southampton Station. When they designed it, they made the architects live in it. But also note that it was built to house 'professionals'; and therefore was built to a higher quality finish. ..
(*) Yes, this was outside the flat...
The sympathetic redevelopment of Ledbury was only really made possible by the massive upturn in Peckham's desirability brought about by the opening of the Overground, and that's hard to replicate. You'd get a similar effect north of the Old Kent Road by greenlighting the Bakerloo extension, but that looks like it won't now happen for another generation or two at least.
That's actually another of our problems - we're bad at quantifying all of the extended benefits of a project when coming up with a business case for funding.1 -
He was the only leaver in the village, as I recall?geoffw said:
There was a poster from Gibraltar on here - @GeoffM – but he was banned for some reason in 2017Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,0 -
The admins have pressed the wrong buttons somewhere along the line, so the system uploads tiny images (which saves bandwidth and hence, one assumes, money) but then stretches these teeny, tiny images to a ludicrous size, too big for many screens, which makes them blurry to the point of... well, you get the drift).Omnium said:1 -
One of us on PB used to go on about how it would be necessary to nuke Madrid etc. if there was any threat to Gib. Wondering how that's supposed to work now ...viewcode said:
I'll say what I said before: the Conservatives have forgotten how to govern. What is the point of the party if it doesn't stand by "what we have, we hold"? Shouldn't there be some variant of "gauntlet, heavy, for the smiting (1)"?Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/0 -
Since January 2024 that is.Jim_Miller said:On topic: To me, the most signficant thing in that graph is how consistent the trends are among Democrats, independents, and Republicans. We don't see that kind of agreement as often as we should, in the US.
Before then NOT so consistent, which is why (according to the chart) in most recent data point, RFKjr is +11 points with Republicans versus -35 with Democrats.0 -
At least the hound looks sort of fuzzy in the first place.IanB2 said:2 -
Although you never see white Vanilla anymore.Farooq said:
Vanilla has always been dogshitDecrepiterJohnL said:
The admins have pressed the wrong buttons somewhere along the line, so the system uploads tiny images (which saves bandwidth and hence, one assumes, money) but then stretches these teeny, tiny images to a ludicrous size, too big for many screens, which makes them blurry to the point of... well, you get the drift).Omnium said:3 -
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.1 -
Ah - thanks DJLDecrepiterJohnL said:
The admins have pressed the wrong buttons somewhere along the line, so the system uploads tiny images (which saves bandwidth and hence, one assumes, money) but then stretches these teeny, tiny images to a ludicrous size, too big for many screens, which makes them blurry to the point of... well, you get the drift).Omnium said:1 -
I think I was clear that in my view it's up to them.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.0 -
You must be barking , we have seen what the greens hav edone to Scotland, feckin disasters and now another 150 million going to have to be paid out on their mental failed bottle scheme. Only a raving lunatic would vote green in Scotland.Eabhal said:Setting the economics aside, rent controls are smart politics. Labour are at risk from losing some younger/poorer voters to the Greens, and only about 1/20 people are landlords (and likely cast-iron Tories anyway).
The renting class have increased dramatically over the last 10 years, and the average age of a first time buyer is 34 - prime voters to catch now, doubly screwed by rents and interest rates.
And while the SG policy on rent controls has failed, it's not like anyone is going to vote Conservative as a result. In fact, if I were still renting my instinct would be to vote Green for an even more dramatic (if economically illiterate) intervention on private rentals.
Full disclosure: I am an Edinburgh landlord and very grateful to my tenant who, enjoying a rent freeze, had not burnt the place down yet.0 -
You've got me there. However from the article you linked:Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Last week, Fabian Picardo, Gibraltar’s chief minister, told The Telegraph that it was “wrong” to suggest that the deal would “in any way affect British sovereignty” and criticised Tory MPs for wanting to “set themselves up as a greater guardian of Gibraltar’s sovereignty than the people of Gibraltar”.
You'll notice he referred to British sovereignty and Gibraltar’s sovereignty as two different things.
I assume the Chief Minister of Gibraltar is at least as legitimate in representing Gibraltarians as the Tory government is in representing the British.
0 -
To my knowledge, there are normally no passport checks at the border from Akrotiri or Dhekelia to Cyprus. You do need a valid passport to enter the SBAs but (a) border control is handled at the airbase by the SBA Customs and Immigration controls (us), and not Frontex, and (b) Cyprus isn't part of Schengen anyway.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't that already happen in Cyprus at the British airbase there?Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.0 -
Yep , you can kiss goodbye to Ukraine and lots of trouble for Europe with Russia. Lots of stupid people over here.Mexicanpete said:....
Please yourself, but I think you are p1ssing on your own chips. Should Trump become President we will all regret it.Sandpit said:
The Dems spent half of his first term, and tens of millions of dollars, trying to get the narrative going of Trump being a Russian asset, but they came up with precisely nothing.Mexicanpete said:
I believe you underestimate Trump's Russian obligations.Sandpit said:
I’m really not rooting for Trump, simply trying to provide an element of balance to an otherwise very one-sided betting forum.Mexicanpete said:
Sandpit, can I ask why you are rooting for Trump when he is going to hang Ukraine out to dry?Sandpit said:First like Trump!
That said, my longstanding prediction for how Ukraine would be handled by Republicans was shown to be correct only a couple of weeks ago, couching “aid for Ukraine” as spending taking place primarily inside the US, and supporting millions of American jobs in hundreds of Republican-held districts and States.
There’s probably 10% of Republicans and 10% of Democrats who don’t like the idea of helping Ukraine defend itself, but the 80% of pragmatists in the middle are all for it, especially if the spending goes to some of the biggest donors to both parties, and there’s no American boots on the ground to come home in flag-draped coffins.1 -
He's a politician. Self-aggrandisement comes with the territory.FF43 said:
You've got me there. However from the article you linked:Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Last week, Fabian Picardo, Gibraltar’s chief minister, told The Telegraph that it was “wrong” to suggest that the deal would “in any way affect British sovereignty” and criticised Tory MPs for wanting to “set themselves up as a greater guardian of Gibraltar’s sovereignty than the people of Gibraltar”.
You'll notice he referred to British sovereignty and Gibraltar’s sovereignty as two different things.
I assume the Chief Minister of Gibraltar is at least as legitimate in representing Gibraltarians as the Tory government is in representing the British.
And he only won by a tiny whisker last year. He is now starting to become unpopular.0 -
More so. Fabian Picardo may be a twat but he has won several elections to stay in power.FF43 said:
You've got me there. However from the article you linked:Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Last week, Fabian Picardo, Gibraltar’s chief minister, told The Telegraph that it was “wrong” to suggest that the deal would “in any way affect British sovereignty” and criticised Tory MPs for wanting to “set themselves up as a greater guardian of Gibraltar’s sovereignty than the people of Gibraltar”.
You'll notice he referred to British sovereignty and Gibraltar’s sovereignty as two different things.
I assume the Chief Minister of Gibraltar is at least as legitimate in representing Gibraltarians as the Tory government is in representing the British.
Sunak has never won any elections...0 -
That's the key though, isn't it? It's easy because it's not Schengen - and it's an island.Casino_Royale said:
To my knowledge, there are normally no passport checks at the border from Akrotiri or Dhekelia to Cyprus. You do need a valid passport to enter the SBAs but (a) border control is handled at the airbase by the SBA Customs and Immigration controls (us), and not Frontex, and (b) Cyprus isn't part of Schengen anyway.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't that already happen in Cyprus at the British airbase there?Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.0 -
Obviously not stupid , get themselves freed fro UK stupidity, cannot be anything but a bonus.FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/1 -
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
2 -
Now hang on, Malc. I know you don't like the U.K. much, but would they *really* be better off under a government like Spain's? Sunak didn't try to have Sturgeon beaten up over her abortive referendum, did he?malcolmg said:
Obviously not stupid , get themselves freed fro UK stupidity, cannot be anything but a bonus.FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/1 -
Great deal for Gibraltarians, they get to rejoin Europ and free themselves from the dead hand of EnglandCasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.2 -
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!3 -
'Donald Trump’s lawyer fighting to stop former president from testifying in trial next week
Mr Trump has told the media he would ‘absolutely’ testify and that he would give evidence ‘if necessary’
John C. Coffee, a professor at Columbia Law School, said the former president would be “mad” to expose himself to questioning by the prosecution.
“He would open himself to a perjury indictment, even if he won in this case,” he said. “An early question on cross [examination] if Trump testified would be whether he ever had sex with Stormy Daniels.”
'Duncan Levin, a former New York prosecutor, agreed that Mr Trump was an “uncontrollable client” who would be “nearly impossible to prepare for testimony”.
“He would make a terrible defence witness because he is unpredictable, saddled with past adverse rulings, and has very little to offer on the substantive charges,” he said. “His cross-examination would be blistering.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/18/donald-trumps-lawyer-fighting-former-president-testifying/0 -
But Trump *is* mad.HYUFD said:'Donald Trump’s lawyer fighting to stop former president from testifying in trial next week
Mr Trump has told the media he would ‘absolutely’ testify and that he would give evidence ‘if necessary’
John C. Coffee, a professor at Columbia Law School, said the former president would be “mad” to expose himself to questioning by the prosecution.
“He would open himself to a perjury indictment, even if he won in this case,” he said. “An early question on cross [examination] if Trump testified would be whether he ever had sex with Stormy Daniels.”
'Duncan Levin, a former New York prosecutor, agreed that Mr Trump was an “uncontrollable client” who would be “nearly impossible to prepare for testimony”.
“He would make a terrible defence witness because he is unpredictable, saddled with past adverse rulings, and has very little to offer on the substantive charges,” he said. “His cross-examination would be blistering.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/18/donald-trumps-lawyer-fighting-former-president-testifying/
That, if we're honest, is the problem here.
I wonder if he would be the Edith Thompson of a later time...3 -
Popcorn time?HYUFD said:'Donald Trump’s lawyer fighting to stop former president from testifying in trial next week
Mr Trump has told the media he would ‘absolutely’ testify and that he would give evidence ‘if necessary’
John C. Coffee, a professor at Columbia Law School, said the former president would be “mad” to expose himself to questioning by the prosecution.
“He would open himself to a perjury indictment, even if he won in this case,” he said. “An early question on cross [examination] if Trump testified would be whether he ever had sex with Stormy Daniels.”
'Duncan Levin, a former New York prosecutor, agreed that Mr Trump was an “uncontrollable client” who would be “nearly impossible to prepare for testimony”.
“He would make a terrible defence witness because he is unpredictable, saddled with past adverse rulings, and has very little to offer on the substantive charges,” he said. “His cross-examination would be blistering.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/18/donald-trumps-lawyer-fighting-former-president-testifying/1 -
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!1 -
Don't focus on what Winston Suez: concentrate on what he did.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!1 -
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)0 -
Was he banned? I remember he was very pro Trump and neurotically pro gun ownership (3D printed guns were a blow for freedom against The Man etc) but that’s not usually enough to get you driven from the Garden of Eden.geoffw said:
There was a poster from Gibraltar on here - @GeoffM – but he was banned for some reason in 2017Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,0 -
The dead hand of Scotland restricting our free discussion too.malcolmg said:
Great deal for Gibraltarians, they get to rejoin Europ and free themselves from the dead hand of EnglandCasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
I don't believe for a moment that Scottish opinion is as yours, but if it is then off you go. Free!0 -
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
0 -
Lecce is sublime. Don’t go in July or August. Stay overnight to enjoy it sans trippersPro_Rata said:
Wasn't Taranto the most polluted city in Italy, and, I think, the EU, at some point, due to poor control over its heavy industry? It may still be.Leon said:So the little museum of Taranto has possibly the greatest suite of classical sculptures I’ve ever seen
Orpheus and the Sirens. In terracotta. Looted by the Sacra Corona Unita - the Pugliese mafia. Sold to the Getty in Malibu - boo! - but recently repatriated to Taranto! Yay!
https://www.britishexpatsinitaly.org/2022/10/04/review-terracotta-statues-of-orpheus-and-the-sirens/
That would be enough for most provincial museums - it certainly knocks Hereford’s “badly stuffed fox weirdly staring at decomposing weasel” into a cocked hat
But the museum ALSO has one of the greatest collections of jewellery from the ancient world anywhere on the planet
I tell you. Taranto. You read it here first
In ten years time EVERYONE will be raving about Taranto
Lecce is on my Italian bucket list (generally been to most of the top tier places and want to work my way through Italy's second tier), be good to see what you make of it if you're heading there.1 -
I can't remember the name of the northern Suez port said Winston.ydoethur said:
Don't focus on what Winston Suez: concentrate on what he did.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!0 -
deleted0
-
He coloured up at this embarrassing faux pas. All red, see?Benpointer said:
I can't remember the name of the northern Suez port said Winston.ydoethur said:
Don't focus on what Winston Suez: concentrate on what he did.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!1 -
His profile says banned in 2017Theuniondivvie said:
Was he banned? I remember he was very pro Trump and neurotically pro gun ownership (3D printed guns were a blow for freedom against The Man etc) but that’s not usually enough to get you driven from the Garden of Eden.geoffw said:
There was a poster from Gibraltar on here - @GeoffM – but he was banned for some reason in 2017Casino_Royale said:
You don't know many Gibraltarians, do you?IanB2 said:
Remain: 96%Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians?
Leave 4%
And that was then; this is now,
0 -
Romney Marsh.Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)2 -
debateable ydoethur but we would get tapas and cheap wine so a yes from meydoethur said:
Now hang on, Malc. I know you don't like the U.K. much, but would they *really* be better off under a government like Spain's? Sunak didn't try to have Sturgeon beaten up over her abortive referendum, did he?malcolmg said:
Obviously not stupid , get themselves freed fro UK stupidity, cannot be anything but a bonus.FF43 said:
Gibraltarians seem to want this as it puts them in Schengen. So I guess it comes down to whose sovereignty? Gibraltar or UK.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/0 -
But remember, we won't see the benefits of Brexit for 5 years.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
And when those benefits don't magically appear by 31 January 2025... why, it will all be Labour's fault of course.0 -
If only, England will not free the Golden Goose willingly.Omnium said:
The dead hand of Scotland restricting our free discussion too.malcolmg said:
Great deal for Gibraltarians, they get to rejoin Europ and free themselves from the dead hand of EnglandCasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
I don't believe for a moment that Scottish opinion is as yours, but if it is then off you go. Free!0 -
HYUFD said:
'Donald Trump’s lawyer fighting to stop former president from testifying in trial next week
Mr Trump has told the media he would ‘absolutely’ testify and that he would give evidence ‘if necessary’
John C. Coffee, a professor at Columbia Law School, said the former president would be “mad” to expose himself to questioning by the prosecution.
“He would open himself to a perjury indictment, even if he won in this case,” he said. “An early question on cross [examination] if Trump testified would be whether he ever had sex with Stormy Daniels.”
'Duncan Levin, a former New York prosecutor, agreed that Mr Trump was an “uncontrollable client” who would be “nearly impossible to prepare for testimony”.
“He would make a terrible defence witness because he is unpredictable, saddled with past adverse rulings, and has very little to offer on the substantive charges,” he said. “His cross-examination would be blistering.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/18/donald-trumps-lawyer-fighting-former-president-testifying/
"You Can't Handle the Truth (Social)!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpOtFIEkbs1 -
So still 11% more with Yougov think we were right to leave the EU than the Tories current 20% Yougov poll rating, so hard to see the Conservatives moving away from Brexit even if they do lose the next GEFoxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%0 -
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.0 -
Too good. It's a Sinai should stopydoethur said:
He coloured up at this embarrassing faux pas. All red, see?Benpointer said:
I can't remember the name of the northern Suez port said Winston.ydoethur said:
Don't focus on what Winston Suez: concentrate on what he did.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!1 -
Yes, before it gets Horeb-all.Benpointer said:
Too good. It's a Sinai should stopydoethur said:
He coloured up at this embarrassing faux pas. All red, see?Benpointer said:
I can't remember the name of the northern Suez port said Winston.ydoethur said:
Don't focus on what Winston Suez: concentrate on what he did.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!1 -
With nothing on the horizon roughly 50% are that way minded so if the English were not too scared to lose our money it would be an almost certainty.Omnium said:
The dead hand of Scotland restricting our free discussion too.malcolmg said:
Great deal for Gibraltarians, they get to rejoin Europ and free themselves from the dead hand of EnglandCasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
I don't believe for a moment that Scottish opinion is as yours, but if it is then off you go. Free!0 -
Fly, fly, fly!malcolmg said:
If only, England will not free the Golden Goose willingly.Omnium said:
The dead hand of Scotland restricting our free discussion too.malcolmg said:
Great deal for Gibraltarians, they get to rejoin Europ and free themselves from the dead hand of EnglandCasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
I don't believe for a moment that Scottish opinion is as yours, but if it is then off you go. Free!
I don't want to see Scotland go, but I'd not suggest the slightest restraint.0 -
The original Eurosceptics were Enoch Powell, Michael Foot and Tony Benn yes. It was the ultra traditional nationalist right and the socialist left who opposed entry into the EEC while the Liberals, Tory centrists and Labour social democrats supported itOldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!6 -
If it was black and white I’d say a very old pic of Canvey Island!Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)0 -
Are we in Lincolnshire? If so, that's a very old chapel.OldKingCole said:
If it was black and white I’d say a very old pic of Canvey Island!Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)0 -
Obama Marsh?algarkirk said:
Romney Marsh.Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)0 -
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.3 -
Another way of looking at it is that they could go for the 58% which no other party wants to touch. There were some cost of Brexit figures in the middle of last week and the cost of Brexiting has been horrendousHYUFD said:
So still 11% more with Yougov think we were right to leave the EU than the Tories current 20% Yougov poll rating, so hard to see the Conservatives moving away from Brexit even if they do lose the next GEFoxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%0 -
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.2 -
I think it's fair to say that no-one really imagined us as being part of anything like what would become European Coal & Steel Community.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!
Jean Monnet & Robert Schuman deliberately didn't involve the UK in negotiations, after initial approaches had been rebuffed (at, I think, the Civil Service level rather than by Ministers). The UK seems to have thought that France and Germany weren't actually serious - if they were, then why didn't they go away and come back with a proposal that would allow Britain to continue to privilege its Empire?
So the Schuman Declaration took us completely by surprise, Ernie Bevin reacted badly against it - and at that point rejection probably became inevitable.
It wasn't for another decade that Macmillan came to realise that the Empire was a dead loss and that we'd be much better off turning to face Europe instead. But that was a truly radical shift - it almost certainly couldn't have happened without the country being jolted so badly after Suez.1 -
This - especially lack of institutional memory - is an important point.JosiasJessop said:MattW said:
You need to define your terms; Poundbury is tiny. It started in 1993 and the population is now - 30 years later - just over 4000.No_Offence_Alan said:
Ironically, the King's Poundbury is the only example I can think of.LostPassword said:
I'm sure I'd heard promises from politicians about new garden cities. I did a little Google, and found lots of different references, lots of different schemes using the name. I couldn't make any sense of it.Andy_Cooke said:- Build a load of new social homes. Aim for 150,000 per year.
- Allow councils to buy land for housing at current (pre-planning-uplift) values rather than post uplift values
- Reform the "meaningful start" condition so there genuinely is a use-it-or-lose-it aspect to planning permissions so developers have to get on with it. If necessary, introduce a landowner levy on land with planning permission that's not yet built on
- Build ten new garden cities
Earliest promise I could find was under the coalition in 2014. Ten. Years. Ago. Are we any nearer to building any?
It's anybody ever going to get anything done in Britain?
Milton Keynes had after 30 years (1997) hit between 150k and 200k, of which about 75% was new growth.
There are plenty of Poundbury sized places, but many are expanded village. One larger example designated a New Town in the Cambridgeshire Local Plan, for example, is Waterbeach - which is planned for 11,000 new dwellings, and is going from approx 5000-7000 to approx 25,000 people in a shortish period of (guestimating) 10-20 years or so.
Waterbeach has been quite carefully planned afaics, and there was a presentation about it at Active Travel Cafe (weekly online Zoom meeting of active travel type people from officers and Councillors to planning / development experienced activists like me) here:
https://youtu.be/NVCgReNi3nM?t=282
The presentation focuses on active travel aspects, but sets the context well and discusses linking in and transport strategy.
There are large projects all over, but not many qualify as new towns including everything.
When these things do not have overarching strategy and masterplanning, they suffer badly in overall implementation.
There are a couple of developments near me that are adding 2000-3000 dwellings, but they are tending to be urban extensions.
I fear that many of the lessons learnt from its construction appear to have been forgotten with Waterbeach and Northstowe, whose densities and respect of the existing environment (perhaps because they are old airfield sites...) are poorer.
Why my relatives live in SW London, the 1930s estates have plenty of traffic calming and modal filters, and bus stop bypasses.
In the 1950s SPAN were doing things like building modern estates in garden closes with the paths made deliberately slightly narrow so that neighbours had to encounter each other rather than walking past without talking. Subtle placing.
Where I am my dad as a council architect laid out a number of the estates and there are things that have been forgotten from the techniques he used, as well as things learned.
The active travel routes about 1967-1970 junctions on the M1 are higher quality and safer than what we get now *. And so on.
But there are also things we need to forget. For decades after I believe the experience of places like Blackbird Leys and the Meadows in Nottingham, police told Planners to separate and isolate developments into pieces, so that they could catch the local scrotes in their police cars. Now we know that naturally surveilled active frontages and people present everywhere is better, but the institutional memory of decades of security advice is still in the community memory so it is hard to move on.
* eg The pedestrian underpasses at M1 J29:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/M1/@53.1984569,-1.321866,36a,35y,158.18h,79.11t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x48777dff0b838d67:0x3d57a8aebad4f6f9!8m2!3d53.1326742!4d-1.3290586!16zL20vMDE4dmIw?entry=ttu
2 -
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.0 -
We should never have gone in. It was a sticking plaster to avoid confronting the failure of post-war consensus policies, which then happened later and more damagingly under Thatcher. It's now a sticking plaster once again, to avoid confronting the deep structural issues that have best the economy both pre and post-Brexit.AlsoLei said:
I think it's fair to say that no-one really imagined us as being part of anything like what would become European Coal & Steel Community.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!
Jean Monnet & Robert Schuman deliberately didn't involve the UK in negotiations, after initial approaches had been rebuffed (at, I think, the Civil Service level rather than by Ministers). The UK seems to have thought that France and Germany weren't actually serious - if they were, then why didn't they go away and come back with a proposal that would allow Britain to continue to privilege its Empire?
So the Schuman Declaration took us completely by surprise, Ernie Bevin reacted badly against it - and at that point rejection probably became inevitable.
It wasn't for another decade that Macmillan came to realise that the Empire was a dead loss and that we'd be much better off turning to face Europe instead. But that was a truly radical shift - it almost certainly couldn't have happened without the country being jolted so badly after Suez.1 -
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.3 -
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.2 -
Maybe it will work like that.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
But nostalgia for what one has lost is a powerful drug.
In any case- is there a magnitude and duration of support for Bregret/Brejoin/Brejoin even if it means adopting the Euro that would make you think 'this is probably unwise, but it is the will of the people'?2 -
No, but it probably gives Labour pretty broad leeway for closer a relationship with the EU that falls short of membership.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.0 -
Probably would have worked out better for us if de Gaulle hadn't said "non"!Luckyguy1983 said:
We should never have gone in. It was a sticking plaster to avoid confronting the failure of post-war consensus policies, which then happened later and more damagingly under Thatcher. It's now a sticking plaster once again, to avoid confronting the deep structural issues that have best the economy both pre and post-Brexit.AlsoLei said:
I think it's fair to say that no-one really imagined us as being part of anything like what would become European Coal & Steel Community.carnforth said:
Churchill was pro-EU but didn't see Britain as a part of it. Perhaps if he had lived long enough through decolonization, he would have. Who knows.OldKingCole said:
Not quite; we were followers of Winston Churchill! Margaret Thatcher was also pro-EU.Farooq said:
Huh, I was always assured that those of us who voted Remain did so because we were all treacherous beta cuck Quisling commie fascists who would wipe our arses on Magna Carta after shitting on the grave of Florence Nightingale.Casino_Royale said:
If you think Gibraltarians would prioritise ease of access to the EU over their Britishness then you're totally deluded. Self-determination rests with them, and they want to stay British. Overwhelmingly. And that puts their foreign affairs and defence with our government just as it does for any UK citizen, and they want it to do so.Omnium said:
I find it hard to imagine that Gibraltarians might disapprove of their being the right to decide their future. In this instance 'we' don't decide.Casino_Royale said:
We decide. Defence, foreign policy, internal security and general good governance are reserved to the British government.Omnium said:
Whatever's best. Who decides? - they do. The UK cannot be cut off. It's the rest of the world that runs such a risk.Casino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
However, do you know many Gibraltarians? They'd make the most patriotic of posters on here look like Jeremy Corbyn. Picardo only won very narrowly last year (by one seat) and has pledged to stand down this parliament. This is one of the top issues in the territory and it's not popular.
This deal could finish him.
The trouble is that a lot of mainland Remainy Britons think the reason Gibraltarians so overwhelmingly voted Remain must be for the same reasons they did: because they pride themselves on their internationalist, liberal and 'open' credentials, and aren't much fussed about Britishness which they find faintly embarrassing anyway.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Firstly, Gibraltar was always 'less' a part of the EU than even we were - it was never part of the Customs Union or CAP, as well as being out of Schengen like us - and was only in the single market.
They voted Remain because they knew Spain would use its leverage in the EU to open up the issue of sovereignty all over again. Voting patterns in referendums and EU elections by Gibraltarian citizens show, time and time again, that it's that issue which is decisive.
It was Tony Benn who led the No campaign. Jeremy Corbyn’s spiritual leader.
Ain’t politics weird sometimes! Fancy Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage on the same side as Tony Benn!
Jean Monnet & Robert Schuman deliberately didn't involve the UK in negotiations, after initial approaches had been rebuffed (at, I think, the Civil Service level rather than by Ministers). The UK seems to have thought that France and Germany weren't actually serious - if they were, then why didn't they go away and come back with a proposal that would allow Britain to continue to privilege its Empire?
So the Schuman Declaration took us completely by surprise, Ernie Bevin reacted badly against it - and at that point rejection probably became inevitable.
It wasn't for another decade that Macmillan came to realise that the Empire was a dead loss and that we'd be much better off turning to face Europe instead. But that was a truly radical shift - it almost certainly couldn't have happened without the country being jolted so badly after Suez.
We'd have gone in when the Treaty of Rome was still coming in to force, we'd have played a part in the merger of the EEC and Coal & Steel Comunity, and would have been one of the strongest voices in setting the initial direction for the community.
As it was, the 1960s were a lost decade for us - sure, growth was high by modern standards, but France and Germany began to overtake us despite both having started in a much worse position.
But that's been the story of our association with Europe for 70 years - we say no then change our minds far too late, and end up getting the worst of both worlds.2 -
Surely inevitable that we'll rejoin. Just watching all these peripheral European countries falling over each other to be admitted will be getting through to the uncommitted what we have let go.Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.0 -
This is a chimera. We already have a close relationship now, and short of rejoining the single market there isn't anything especially substantive that we could do.Ratters said:
No, but it probably gives Labour pretty broad leeway for closer a relationship with the EU that falls short of membership.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.0 -
Do you think the Party which has led the Government for 14 years has made any serious impact on any of these problems? Perhaps if it hadn't spent so much time on its own self-indulgence regarding Europe and the EU, some progress might have been made.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.5 -
@wethinkpollingStuartinromford said:In any case- is there a magnitude and duration of support for Bregret/Brejoin/Brejoin even if it means adopting the Euro that would make you think 'this is probably unwise, but it is the will of the people'?
·
May 17
Replying to
@wethinkpolling
And if Britain had to adopt the euro as a condition of re-joining the EU, how would people vote if there was a referendum tomorrow?
❎ Stay Out: 39% (-2)
☑️ Re-Join: 39% (NC)
😐 Wouldn’t vote: 11% (+1)
🤷♂️ Don’t know: 11% (+1)2 -
The very old chapel is St Thomas Becket, Fairfield, Romney Marsh.Peter_the_Punter said:
Are we in Lincolnshire? If so, that's a very old chapel.OldKingCole said:
If it was black and white I’d say a very old pic of Canvey Island!Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)1 -
Rejoin even 9% below the 48% Remain got in 2016 and a massive 19% behind the 58% Wrong to Leave the EU Yougov has if rejoining the Euro becomes a requirementScott_xP said:
@wethinkpollingStuartinromford said:In any case- is there a magnitude and duration of support for Bregret/Brejoin/Brejoin even if it means adopting the Euro that would make you think 'this is probably unwise, but it is the will of the people'?
·
May 17
Replying to
@wethinkpolling
And if Britain had to adopt the euro as a condition of re-joining the EU, how would people vote if there was a referendum tomorrow?
❎ Stay Out: 39% (-2)
☑️ Re-Join: 39% (NC)
😐 Wouldn’t vote: 11% (+1)
🤷♂️ Don’t know: 11% (+1)0 -
I think you underestimate how shameless the Conservative Party can be in the pursuit of victory.Mexicanpete said:
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.
My best guess is that the David Cameron (at present, utterly unknown) of 2028/2032 or so will make it their pitch. Something like "if Britain is going to be in the European system, we shouldn't be following, we should be leading". And the party, traumatised by their second/third defeat on the bounce, will swallow it.
Note, I'm not saying that's what will happen. Plenty could push that off course. It's a best guess, albeit with huge uncertainty ranges.5 -
Ultimately that's the only argument those who supported LEAVE eight long years ago still have - the EU would allow us to rejoin (or join) only if we accepted "full" membership (Euro, Schengen, FoM etc).HYUFD said:
Rejoin even 9% below the 48% Remain got in 2016 and a massive 19% behind the 58% Wrong to Leave the EU Yougov has if rejoining the Euro becomes a requirementScott_xP said:
@wethinkpollingStuartinromford said:In any case- is there a magnitude and duration of support for Bregret/Brejoin/Brejoin even if it means adopting the Euro that would make you think 'this is probably unwise, but it is the will of the people'?
·
May 17
Replying to
@wethinkpolling
And if Britain had to adopt the euro as a condition of re-joining the EU, how would people vote if there was a referendum tomorrow?
❎ Stay Out: 39% (-2)
☑️ Re-Join: 39% (NC)
😐 Wouldn’t vote: 11% (+1)
🤷♂️ Don’t know: 11% (+1)
We don't know that for a fact but the perception is enough. None of it matters - the immolation of your party at the next election will be lesson enough for any party wishing to re-open (or open) that can of worms.1 -
Because both the Euro and political union are serious sticking points, it remains compellingly obvious that the Norway/Iceland/Switzerland options are the ones to consider; and they are entirely in conformity with the Brexit vote. It isn't perfect, but the status quo and rejoin are not perfect either.Roger said:
Surely inevitable that we'll rejoin. Just watching all these peripheral European countries falling over each other to be admitted will be getting through to the uncommitted what we have let go.Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.5 -
Labour have managed 3 (or 4?) 180° turns in their position on Europe over the years, but the Tories have only really had one. They're going to need to work harder if they're going to catch up...Stuartinromford said:
I think you underestimate how shameless the Conservative Party can be in the pursuit of victory.Mexicanpete said:
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.
My best guess is that the David Cameron (at present, utterly unknown) of 2028/2032 or so will make it their pitch. Something like "if Britain is going to be in the European system, we shouldn't be following, we should be leading". And the party, traumatised by their second/third defeat on the bounce, will swallow it.
Note, I'm not saying that's what will happen. Plenty could push that off course. It's a best guess, albeit with huge uncertainty ranges.0 -
I wholly agree, but the Francois wing needs to die out before the Conservatives wake up and smell the coffeeStuartinromford said:
I think you underestimate how shameless the Conservative Party can be in the pursuit of victory.Mexicanpete said:
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.
My best guess is that the David Cameron (at present, utterly unknown) of 2028/2032 or so will make it their pitch. Something like "if Britain is going to be in the European system, we shouldn't be following, we should be leading". And the party, traumatised by their second/third defeat on the bounce, will swallow it.
Note, I'm not saying that's what will happen. Plenty could push that off course. It's a best guess, albeit with huge uncertainty ranges.1 -
That's not old. I am at the scene of the demise of Edward the Martyr two centuries before.algarkirk said:
The very old chapel is St Thomas Becket, Fairfield, Romney Marsh.Peter_the_Punter said:
Are we in Lincolnshire? If so, that's a very old chapel.OldKingCole said:
If it was black and white I’d say a very old pic of Canvey Island!Benpointer said:
Is the problem limited to images uploaded via vanilla?OldKingCole said:
Yes - not an issue for other externally sourced or held images.
Any guesses on location? (Egret in place of dog for scale.)0 -
No they couldn't, 80-90% of the 58% wouldn't touch the Tories with a bargepole even if they wanted to reverse Brexit as they are ideologically left of centre. While if the Tories tried that most of their remaining support would go to ReformUK, effectively wiping them out under FPTP.Roger said:
Another way of looking at it is that they could go for the 58% which no other party wants to touch. There were some cost of Brexit figures in the middle of last week and the cost of Brexiting has been horrendousHYUFD said:
So still 11% more with Yougov think we were right to leave the EU than the Tories current 20% Yougov poll rating, so hard to see the Conservatives moving away from Brexit even if they do lose the next GEFoxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
The only way we rejoin the EU is if a Labour government has been re elected and willing to take the risk next time or if we get PR and the LDs hold the balance of power and agree rejoin with Labour and a small pro EU Tory party electing MPs with PR (albeit even they likely prefer EEA)1 -
If the Conservatives pitched themselves as the party of rejoin against the failed Brexit supported by Starmer-Labour in GE 2024 they would win a landslide.AlsoLei said:
Labour have managed 3 (or 4?) 180° turns in their position on Europe over the years, but the Tories have only really had one. They're going to need to work harder if they're going to catch up...Stuartinromford said:
I think you underestimate how shameless the Conservative Party can be in the pursuit of victory.Mexicanpete said:
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.
My best guess is that the David Cameron (at present, utterly unknown) of 2028/2032 or so will make it their pitch. Something like "if Britain is going to be in the European system, we shouldn't be following, we should be leading". And the party, traumatised by their second/third defeat on the bounce, will swallow it.
Note, I'm not saying that's what will happen. Plenty could push that off course. It's a best guess, albeit with huge uncertainty ranges.1 -
I’m very pro EU but not a great lover of the Euro and can’t ever see the UK rejoining on those terms .
Admittedly membership has the Euro as an end point but you can fudge it by putting in hurdles that are very hard to overcome like what Brown did .
2 -
There is zero chance of the Conservatives doing it themselves, at most they would reluctantly accept remaining in the EU in 15-20 years if elected into power again if a Labour government had already rejoined the EU.Stuartinromford said:
I think you underestimate how shameless the Conservative Party can be in the pursuit of victory.Mexicanpete said:
Some master craftsman turd polishing going on there Casino.Casino_Royale said:
Yes. I view it as something unnecessarily divisive, helped in no part with Theresa May opening it all up again, but it was a reckoning that was coming anyway as our position inside the EU was politically unsustainable.DavidL said:
I take a different view. I am increasingly impatient with those who are unwilling to accept our decision and accept that we have moved on.Casino_Royale said:
Have you seen how recent referendums have gone around the world for those who thought "the tide of history" was with them and had an unassailable lead?Foxy said:
The trend has been in only one direction.Casino_Royale said:
And, a 15% swing would reverse that. Which could easily happen in a referendum where we're staring down the barrel of signing up to the Euro and full Federal Union.Foxy said:
Latest YouGov on Brexit:numbertwelve said:
Bingo.IanB2 said:
Just like the Johnson solution to NICasino_Royale said:
Having EU border guards apply their controls to British citizens and access to a British territory through a RAF airbase is unacceptable.Omnium said:
Whatever's best for the Gibraltarians is the right way to proceed. The UK might want to have a powerful airbase in Gibraltar and a substantial naval force, but when the reality is paper planes and floating leaves then it is irrelevant.Casino_Royale said:Unfortunately, it looks like Dodgy Dave is about to sell out Gibraltar:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/18/tory-mps-warn-sovereignty-risk-in-gibraltar-deal/
Quite why the MoD fail to spend their enormous budget on things that actually look like a Defence of the realm escape me.
It dissolves the border between Spain and Gibraltar but creates one between Gibraltar and the UK, and further isolates the UK. That's very obviously not in the interests of Gibraltarians either.
No deal.
It will all get easier when GB moves toward closer alignment
And we will. I will cautiously predict that in 10 years time we will for all practical purposes be so aligned to the EU sphere that serious conversations will start to be had about rejoin.
I remain skeptical that rejoining is on the agenda any time soon, for the practical and emotive reasons that make some aspects a hard sell politically. But the status quo does not work, and (anecdotally, but I think polling bears it out) more and more people are growing increasingly aware that those great Brexit benefits we were promised haven’t materialised.
Wrong to Leave 58%
Right to Leave 31%
DK 11%
Cynicism and resignation, two terribly British traits, doesn't translate to euroactivism in the wider populace.
Brexit will be the albatross around the neck of the Tory party for a long time yet. Fewer and fewer will want the architects of Britain's biggest foreign policy mistake since Suez back in power for at least a generation.
One thing I hope we'll agree on though: it's something of a relief to be debating Brexit again rather than Gaza, Trans or AI.
Words I thought I'd never say, but there you go.
The challenge now is how do we make the best of where we are? How do we make a better fortune for the good ship UK plc? This involves close and friendly cooperation with our European neighbours, particularly on things like security, immigration and, of course, trade. It also involves making the best we can of our relationships with the rest of the world. It means focusing on our internal weaknesses and problems, our trade deficit, our skills shortages, our seriously inadequate public services, our inequality, our failure to protect and nurture our weak and needy. There is absolutely no end to the challenges we face. Wasting our time and energy arguing about might have beens is simply not productive.
What I think will happen is closer relations, with lots of fudging, but from the outside. We will do fine and it will cease to be much of an issue.
Last year we got the 2nd highest level of FDI in the whole of Europe, and we were the only country growing in FDI whilst the rest declined, and pragmatism will now reign.
We are where we are and we are not going back in my lifetime. Nonetheless a future Government without the shackles of the ERG could make some inroads into a more pragmatic relationship with the EU. It won't be the Conservative Party for the moment. However it will be a phoenix from the ashes iteration of one nation conservatism that will take Britain back to some sort of common market in twenty plus years time.
My best guess is that the David Cameron (at present, utterly unknown) of 2028/2032 or so will make it their pitch. Something like "if Britain is going to be in the European system, we shouldn't be following, we should be leading". And the party, traumatised by their second/third defeat on the bounce, will swallow it.
Note, I'm not saying that's what will happen. Plenty could push that off course. It's a best guess, albeit with huge uncertainty ranges.
Any Conservative platform pushing rejoin for at least the next 2 decades would otherwise almost certainly see Reform overtake the Tories as the main party of the right (probably the same would happen even under PR albeit a pro EU Tories might win a few MPs rather than get the wipeout they would face under FPTP)1
This discussion has been closed.