You get what you vote for – politicalbetting.com

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  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    WillG said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    Voting for extremists like Galloway absolutely shows a threat to democracy if such immigration is allowed to continue.

    These people have been in the UK for generations. Why do they still have such extremist views? When will integration actually happen?
    I wonder whether @NickPalmer feels that Denmark has any lessons for us on this subject?
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Mexicanpete said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    0 % - Keir Starmer 2024

    Corrected that for you.

    Don't forget there was no official Labour candidate. Starmer's error, but your assertion was incorrect, Starmer got zero because his candidate was withdrawn.
    TBF to BJO, wasn't there still a "Labour" candidate on the ballot paper? Or do I misremember? If so, then BJO's point is actually fairly valid.
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    'I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think.'

    People can see with their own eyes Nick. It's a question of whether politicians are in touch with them.
  • AverageNinja
    AverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    FrankBooth said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    FrankBooth said:

    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13115769/anti-muslim-hate-britain-triple-hamas-israel.html

    "Anti-Muslim hate incidents in Britain TRIPLE since Hamas' assault on Israel - with women bearing the brunt of racist attacks, watchdog reports"
    I don't doubt things have got worse for muslims.
    The Daily Mail must be absolutely beside themselves. They've been wanting an anti-Muslim attack force for years
  • AverageNinja
    AverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/duffield-trans-conversion-therapy-ban-law-social-media

    Suella Braverman fears she could be criminalised if trans conversion therapy is banned

    Anyone want to have a go at justifying why trans conversion therapy should not be banned?
  • DecrepiterJohnL
    DecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,766
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    Yes but it is standard fare for MPs to campaign on their local hospital.

  • darkage
    darkage Posts: 5,398
    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    I think the point is that, as you say, nothing will change; so in the fullness of time it won't stop the drift of voters away from the conservatives to Reform UK.
  • El_Capitano
    El_Capitano Posts: 4,251
    MattW said:

    El_Capitano said:

    MattW said:

    The Other Ghost in the Machine said:

    The Ghost in the Machine said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    I know Rochdale reasonably well. Strapline: at least we're not Oldham.

    The Northwest is full of struggling post-industrial towns, but there are a handful which are doing ok-ish. Stockport. Bury. Warrington. Preston, at a push.
    I'd struggle to think of any more.

    Doesn't it depress you, all the rubbish towns?
    The country is broken. I keep pointing this out. Massive structural issues in the economy which go back decades and transcend the Lab/Con duopoly. The towns are rubbish because we had this stupid idea of bulldozing so much of what made them unique to build ugly anonymous concrete things. With the old jobs gone and no investment in anything.

    Rochdale should be one of the places that wins. Beautiful Pennines setting combined with proximity to Manchester and good transport links. Industrial heritage, a proud local (Lancastrian) culture. But instead its got a gutted town centre and congested roads that make it hard to get anywhere, with crumbling relics of factories and victorian warehouses.
    The Rochdale Canal is gorgeous.

    Apart from the bit through Rochdale. (And Newton Heath, but that goes without saying.)
    It may not be for long.

    Canals are now having their public funding salami sliced year by year by Short-Term Rishi.

    I was amazed when I found out that the Canal and River Trust gets £200m a year or so, and views its main stakeholders/beneficiaries as 30,000 boaters not the larger public or towpath users.

    And they are barriered off to mobility aids ... everywhere. And often kept to "one fat labrador" width for the sake of a weltanschauung that came off a 1970s chocolate box. In 1910 two fat boat-horses could pass each other on most of these.
    (Vanilla quotes broken, my bit starts here…)

    I’m going to the pub so not going to dwell on this but… hard disagree on that. CRT spends immense amounts of money on the larger public and would love to spend more. The boaters are forever moaning about it. It has basically rebranded itself as a “waterways and wellbeing charity”.

    I could say more - this is kind of my specialist subject and used to be my job - but it’s Friday and there’s a pint of Old Rosie waiting for me.
    I'd be interested in a wider picture - I'm going from various CRT statements, codes of practice, practical experience and so on.

    I will try and remember tomorrow to write some stuff, but @ me if I don’t. I’m currently three pints of Old Rosie down and anything I write will be even less coherent than usual. But it’s a fascinating topic and I really could blether for hours about it.
  • WillG
    WillG Posts: 2,366
    darkage said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    I think the point is that, as you say, nothing will change; so in the fullness of time it won't stop the drift of voters away from the conservatives to Reform UK.
    The change thay is happening is new income thresholds on worker and family immigration. That will cut off the immigration of these types going forward, though no doubt Labour will want to let more in once in power.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    I didn't know that long wave radio was used to calculate many people's heating bills.

    "BBC switch-off to force almost a million households to get smart meters
    Longwave radio service that tells meters when to switch to low fees to be deactivated"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/01/one-million-households-forced-smart-meters-bbc
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    edited March 2024
    FrankBooth said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    'I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think.'

    People can see with their own eyes Nick. It's a question of whether politicians are in touch with them.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/26/were-two-muslim-women-in-east-london-run-over-because-they-were-wearing-hijabs

    "Were two Muslim women in east London run over because they were wearing hijabs?"
  • Dura_Ace
    Dura_Ace Posts: 14,645
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    Yes but it is standard fare for MPs to campaign on their local hospital.

    It's fucking LOL how having a Primark is one of the top five aspirations of Rochdale. If they get a Wild Bean Cafe as well then GG will be re-elected in a landslide.
  • Anabobazina
    Anabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Andy_JS said:

    I didn't know that long wave radio was used to calculate many people's heating bills.

    "BBC switch-off to force almost a million households to get smart meters
    Longwave radio service that tells meters when to switch to low fees to be deactivated"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/01/one-million-households-forced-smart-meters-bbc

    Nor me. Every day is a school day. Interesting and somewhat bizarre.
  • DecrepiterJohnL
    DecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,766
    edited March 2024
    Dura_Ace said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    Yes but it is standard fare for MPs to campaign on their local hospital.

    It's fucking LOL how having a Primark is one of the top five aspirations of Rochdale. If they get a Wild Bean Cafe as well then GG will be re-elected in a landslide.
    It is absurd but at the same time, not. One of the key indicators of a town's decline is major stores closing. ETA normally more M&S than Primark, admittedly.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    edited March 2024
    Just heard Sunak. Really creepy! Could this be the person who chose Braverman as Home Secretary for the last year? Did he take the trouble to read her article in the Telegraph?

    Didn't Starmer who endorses everything Rishi has said?
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    Anabobazina said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I didn't know that long wave radio was used to calculate many people's heating bills.

    "BBC switch-off to force almost a million households to get smart meters
    Longwave radio service that tells meters when to switch to low fees to be deactivated"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/01/one-million-households-forced-smart-meters-bbc

    Nor me. Every day is a school day. Interesting and somewhat bizarre.
    Even for me, this is a bit of an old-fashioned way of doing things!
  • Mexicanpete
    Mexicanpete Posts: 33,115
    Carnyx said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    0 % - Keir Starmer 2024

    Corrected that for you.

    Don't forget there was no official Labour candidate. Starmer's error, but your assertion was incorrect, Starmer got zero because his candidate was withdrawn.
    TBF to BJO, wasn't there still a "Labour" candidate on the ballot paper? Or do I misremember? If so, then BJO's point is actually fairly valid.
    BJO claimed Ali was a "Starmer" candidate. Starmer disowned Ali, so I stand by my assertion.
  • Mexicanpete
    Mexicanpete Posts: 33,115
    edited March 2024
    Roger said:

    Just heard Sunak. Really creepy! Could this be the person who chose Braverman as Home Secretary for the last year? Did he take the trouble to read her article in the Telegraph?

    Didn't Starmer who endorses everything Rishi has said?

    I've watched it a couple of times now. It may be electoral genius, what do I know? Downing Street "events" are under normal (or rather abnormal) circumstances to cascade down seminal moments in our history, like World War 3, announcing General Elections or the demise of the Downing Street cat.

    What the firing f*** was that all about?
  • MJW
    MJW Posts: 2,021
    Roger said:

    Just heard Sunak. Really creepy! Could this be the person who chose Braverman as Home Secretary for the last year? Did he take the trouble to read her article in the Telegraph?

    Didn't Starmer who endorses everything Rishi has said?

    Starmer's position is fairly obvious and may mean Sunak has created a bit of a trap for himself.

    "Nice words, we agree, now we'll see if you live up to them."

    Little to disagree with in terms of the need to turn the temperature down and call out extremists who are using the strong feelings caused by terrible events to spread hateful views and conspiracy theories.

    However, the extremists spreading hate and division on the left hate Starmer as much as anyone, to the extent they are accusing him of being a "war criminal" and "controlled by Israel" for not saying a thing that wouldn't make any difference if it were British policy, but wouldn't be British policy even if it were Starmer's policy, as he's not PM.

    Whereas some of those spreading hateful nonsense on the right are the toast of Tory fundraisers, were in or in one case leading the cabinet until recently, and Sunak can't easily discipline them without risking a split.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    Telegraph headline.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/poison-extremism-british-democracy-rishi-sunak/

    "Poison of extremism threatens British democracy, says Rishi Sunak

    PM issues plea for pro-Palestinian protesters to reject radicals and calls victory of George Galloway as new MP ‘beyond horrifying’"
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Telegraph headline.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/poison-extremism-british-democracy-rishi-sunak/

    "Poison of extremism threatens British democracy, says Rishi Sunak

    PM issues plea for pro-Palestinian protesters to reject radicals and calls victory of George Galloway as new MP ‘beyond horrifying’"

    This is the fourth seat Galloway has sat for:
    • MP for Glasgow Hillhead and Kelvin (1987–2005)
    • MP for Bethnal Green (2005–2010)
    • MP for Bradford West (2012–2015)
    • MP for Rochdale (2024-?)
    He's a twat and I don't like him, but to present him as a threat against democracy is silly: he's the symptom, not the problem. If Sunak really wants to deal with him then he should present policies that appeal to people and that they wish to vote for. Boris would have eaten Galloway alive and shat out the bits.
    Agree 100%.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    AverageNinja said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/duffield-trans-conversion-therapy-ban-law-social-media

    Suella Braverman fears she could be criminalised if trans conversion therapy is banned

    Anyone want to have a go at justifying why trans conversion therapy should not be banned?

    To be honest criminalising Suella Braverman strikes me as an excellent reason for the ban.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    edited March 2024
    Interesting article I stumbled across.

    "Big Tech has stolen our children
    Fear of the smartphone isn't a moral panic
    Matt Feeney"

    https://unherd.com/2024/03/big-tech-has-stolen-our-children/
  • Taz
    Taz Posts: 19,666
    Mexicanpete said:

    Carnyx said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    0 % - Keir Starmer 2024

    Corrected that for you.

    Don't forget there was no official Labour candidate. Starmer's error, but your assertion was incorrect, Starmer got zero because his candidate was withdrawn.
    TBF to BJO, wasn't there still a "Labour" candidate on the ballot paper? Or do I misremember? If so, then BJO's point is actually fairly valid.
    BJO claimed Ali was a "Starmer" candidate. Starmer disowned Ali, so I stand by my assertion.
    Starmer may have disowned him after his antisemitism came to light, but he was a starmer candidate and that shows starmers lack of judgement especially when he backed Ali initially and was 9th forced to act after further revelations.
  • Benpointer
    Benpointer Posts: 35,627
    WillG said:

    darkage said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    I think the point is that, as you say, nothing will change; so in the fullness of time it won't stop the drift of voters away from the conservatives to Reform UK.
    The change thay is happening is new income thresholds on worker and family immigration. That will cut off the immigration of these types going forward, though no doubt Labour will want to let more in once in power.
    'these types' Why don't you just come right out and say it?

    While you're at it, how about checking the net migration levels under this government versus the last Labour government?
  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,717
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Telegraph headline.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/poison-extremism-british-democracy-rishi-sunak/

    "Poison of extremism threatens British democracy, says Rishi Sunak

    PM issues plea for pro-Palestinian protesters to reject radicals and calls victory of George Galloway as new MP ‘beyond horrifying’"

    This is the fourth seat Galloway has sat for:
    • MP for Glasgow Hillhead and Kelvin (1987–2005)
    • MP for Bethnal Green (2005–2010)
    • MP for Bradford West (2012–2015)
    • MP for Rochdale (2024-?)
    He's a twat and I don't like him, but to present him as a threat against democracy is silly: he's the symptom, not the problem. If Sunak really wants to deal with him then he should present policies that appeal to people and that they wish to vote for. Boris would have eaten Galloway alive and shat out the bits.
    As an aside, two of those seats were win by the SDP-Liberal Alliance in the early 80s.

    Which is pretty amazing given they only got 20 odd seats.

    (And the LDs won next door Bradford East a little later.)
  • DecrepiterJohnL
    DecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,766
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Telegraph headline.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/poison-extremism-british-democracy-rishi-sunak/

    "Poison of extremism threatens British democracy, says Rishi Sunak

    PM issues plea for pro-Palestinian protesters to reject radicals and calls victory of George Galloway as new MP ‘beyond horrifying’"

    This is the fourth seat Galloway has sat for:
    • MP for Glasgow Hillhead and Kelvin (1987–2005)
    • MP for Bethnal Green (2005–2010)
    • MP for Bradford West (2012–2015)
    • MP for Rochdale (2024-?)
    He's a twat and I don't like him, but to present him as a threat against democracy is silly: he's the symptom, not the problem. If Sunak really wants to deal with him then he should present policies that appeal to people and that they wish to vote for. Boris would have eaten Galloway alive and shat out the bits.
    As an aside, two of those seats were win by the SDP-Liberal Alliance in the early 80s.

    Which is pretty amazing given they only got 20 odd seats.

    (And the LDs won next door Bradford East a little later.)
    The power of the NOTA vote.
  • MattW
    MattW Posts: 28,305
    edited March 2024
    Since I'm up early, Good Morning everyone.

    Evidence that the Ukranians are using caltrops dropped from drones to slow down Russian supply convoys.

    (Denys Davidov wearing a Galloway hat. For different reasons.)

    https://youtu.be/8WTFwzhur7c?t=226
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: will try and come up with a tip this morning. Tricky seeing how things lie (Verstappen favourite for the win but that's both tedious and will have poor odds).
  • Cicero
    Cicero Posts: 3,622
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Telegraph headline.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/01/poison-extremism-british-democracy-rishi-sunak/

    "Poison of extremism threatens British democracy, says Rishi Sunak

    PM issues plea for pro-Palestinian protesters to reject radicals and calls victory of George Galloway as new MP ‘beyond horrifying’"

    This is the fourth seat Galloway has sat for:
    • MP for Glasgow Hillhead and Kelvin (1987–2005)
    • MP for Bethnal Green (2005–2010)
    • MP for Bradford West (2012–2015)
    • MP for Rochdale (2024-?)
    He's a twat and I don't like him, but to present him as a threat against democracy is silly: he's the symptom, not the problem. If Sunak really wants to deal with him then he should present policies that appeal to people and that they wish to vote for. Boris would have eaten Galloway alive and shat out the bits.
    As an aside, two of those seats were win by the SDP-Liberal Alliance in the early 80s.

    Which is pretty amazing given they only got 20 odd seats.

    (And the LDs won next door Bradford East a little later.)
    The power of the NOTA vote.
    Which is why it is a mistake to believe Reform voters would automatically default to Conservative.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Betting Post

    F1: tight at the top so lots of interesting things to consider. In the end, backed Alonso on Betfair at 5.3 for a podium.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2024/03/bahrain-pre-race-2024.html
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’
  • Eabhal
    Eabhal Posts: 11,275
    Just back from a few days dodging snakes in the Australian bush.

    Is the idea that I'm supposed to vote Conservative because I'm scared of George Galloway?
  • Chris
    Chris Posts: 12,059
    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    If we're talking about the Rochdale result rather than the Mail's perennial right-wing preoccupations, then it would be more appropriate to say that we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition unwilling of speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    If we're talking about the Rochdale result rather than the Mail's perennial right-wing preoccupations, then it would be more appropriate to say that we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition unwilling of speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza.
    The Gaza solution is simple all Hamas have to do is release their hostages and hand in their arms. Thats what our politicians should be demanding.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,311
    Northern_Al said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    1.4% - Greens 2024.
    Is this the lowest Con+Lab+Lib/LibDem total vote share ever?
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,311
    AverageNinja said:

    Rishi Sunak has a massive majority yet seems to be unable or unwilling to do anything.

    How is this possible? He in theory has the most power any PM has had since the early 2000s.

    Just wait until next year…. ;)
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Eabhal said:

    Just back from a few days dodging snakes in the Australian bush.

    Is the idea that I'm supposed to vote Conservative because I'm scared of George Galloway?

    If Sunak wants to get Galloway out of Parliament that badly, then he has an easy way to make that happen - just one call to the King would do it, and we can all vote for a new Parliament on May 2nd, two months from now.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    edited March 2024
    Dura_Ace said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    Yes but it is standard fare for MPs to campaign on their local hospital.

    It's fucking LOL how having a Primark is one of the top five aspirations of Rochdale. If they get a Wild Bean Cafe as well then GG will be re-elected in a landslide.
    Primark* is always the busiest shop in Leicester. It's really cheap, and much of the stuff is fine.

    Much more useful to a town than a tattoo parlour or fried chicken shop with dodgy taxi drivers.

    *Primarni as it is locally known.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    Have you really not noticed the Tory party and press stoking Culture War?
  • darkage
    darkage Posts: 5,398
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    If we're talking about the Rochdale result rather than the Mail's perennial right-wing preoccupations, then it would be more appropriate to say that we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition unwilling of speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza.
    They have both done so repeatedly. For example, Starmer has condemned Israel for blocking humanitarian aid, Sunak has warned Israel to concentrate on hitting Hamas and not civilians, and both have called for a ceasefire.

    The issue is that this doesn’t appease the alarmingly large chunk in this country including more than a few on these boards who are quite happy to see Israel be brutally attacked but furious when they strike back. Because ultimately like Galloway they’re not allies of Gaza - they don’t care about the Gazan people any more than Hamas or Netanyahu do - but haters of Israel.

    There’s plenty to criticise in Israel’s response - starting with the fact that they’re far too trigger happy, moving through their dances on where civilians ought to go with the obvious intent (obvious to Egypt too, to judge by the way they’re preparing the border) to drive large numbers out of Gaza altogether, and finishing with the fact that their leader makes Trump look sane.

    But - Hamas made a decision to start this war. Hamas based its fighters in civilian areas. Hamas used UN organisations to shield its operatives. Hamas keeps hold of the hostages, without which Israel’s excuses for going on would vanish. Hamas bears a huge responsibility for what happens.

    And yet I see far too many who refuse to accept that, and falsely label those who refuse to take their stupid one-eyed position born of racism as ‘genocide deniers’ ‘baby murderers’ etc.

    If you look for heroes in the Middle East, you look in the wrong place. But many people do see heroes in Hamas and that tells me all I need to know about their character.

    What Galloway, as an anti-Semitic stooge of Iran, and Williamson et al want is for Starmer to just attack Israel for being Jewish. Which is essentially what Corbyn did. Starmer’s not doing so. He also has limited room for manoeuvre ironically because a party with such a grim recent history of racism has to tread warily in case it is accused of slipping backwards. As a result, he’s labelled a tool of Israel.

    The really grim irony is that those using Gaza to play politics in this country are contriving, by stoking division and hurling abuse, to turn matters in such a way that it won’t even be possible to have a sensible conversation about what we could really do to try and help sort matters out.
    Good post and agree. Essentially, a big part of the problem is with Hamas and their supporters; but also there are problems with how Israel has conducted itself both before and during the current war. So it is a 2-sided conflict.
  • Monksfield
    Monksfield Posts: 2,905
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting article I stumbled across.

    "Big Tech has stolen our children
    Fear of the smartphone isn't a moral panic
    Matt Feeney"

    https://unherd.com/2024/03/big-tech-has-stolen-our-children/

    Unherd is rapidly becoming a parody of itself.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    Foxy said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    Have you really not noticed the Tory party and press stoking Culture War?
    No, Ive been too busy watching the Left stoking grievance harvesting and then telling minorities the world owes them.
    Surprisingly this doesnt appear to make anyone happier.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    Goings on in the Royal Family are getting odder and odder.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/01/thomas-kingston-died-from-traumatic-head-wound-and-gun-found-inquest-told
  • Dura_Ace
    Dura_Ace Posts: 14,645
    Foxy said:

    Goings on in the Royal Family are getting odder and odder.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/01/thomas-kingston-died-from-traumatic-head-wound-and-gun-found-inquest-told

    They are harvesting Kate's organs to keep Chaz alive. That much is obvious.
  • bondegezou
    bondegezou Posts: 15,133
    .
    IanB2 said:

    Northern_Al said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    1.4% - Greens 2024.
    Is this the lowest Con+Lab+Lib/LibDem total vote share ever?
    In any election? In a by-election? Excluding Northern Ireland? There have been elections where they didn’t stand or didn’t all stand. You could look at the the 1945 and 1946 Combined Scottish Universities by-elections. I think it might be the lowest total vote share for an election in which all three stood…?
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Foxy said:

    Goings on in the Royal Family are getting odder and odder.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/01/thomas-kingston-died-from-traumatic-head-wound-and-gun-found-inquest-told

    There’s some very weird conspiracy theories online about this particular death.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Goings on in the Royal Family are getting odder and odder.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/01/thomas-kingston-died-from-traumatic-head-wound-and-gun-found-inquest-told

    They are harvesting Kate's organs to keep Chaz alive. That much is obvious.
    I think you might be on to something Mr Poirot!

    As ever, the Atlantic covers the story well.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/02/kate-middleton-conspiracy-theories/677603/?gift=Q2xxhS27Csx4yHsp7QhJge6vNlwJSakQeSy3SOuTYxA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
  • Mexicanpete
    Mexicanpete Posts: 33,115
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    If we're talking about the Rochdale result rather than the Mail's perennial right-wing preoccupations, then it would be more appropriate to say that we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition unwilling of speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza.
    They have both done so repeatedly. For example, Starmer has condemned Israel for blocking humanitarian aid, Sunak has warned Israel to concentrate on hitting Hamas and not civilians, and both have called for a ceasefire.

    The issue is that this doesn’t appease the alarmingly large chunk in this country including more than a few on these boards who are quite happy to see Israel be brutally attacked but furious when they strike back. Because ultimately like Galloway they’re not allies of Gaza - they don’t care about the Gazan people any more than Hamas or Netanyahu do - but haters of Israel.

    There’s plenty to criticise in Israel’s response - starting with the fact that they’re far too trigger happy, moving through their dances on where civilians ought to go with the obvious intent (obvious to Egypt too, to judge by the way they’re preparing the border) to drive large numbers out of Gaza altogether, and finishing with the fact that their leader makes Trump look sane.

    But - Hamas made a decision to start this war. Hamas based its fighters in civilian areas. Hamas used UN organisations to shield its operatives. Hamas keeps hold of the hostages, without which Israel’s excuses for going on would vanish. Hamas bears a huge responsibility for what happens.

    And yet I see far too many who refuse to accept that, and falsely label those who refuse to take their stupid one-eyed position born of racism as ‘genocide deniers’ ‘baby murderers’ etc.

    If you look for heroes in the Middle East, you look in the wrong place. But many people do see heroes in Hamas and that tells me all I need to know about their character.

    What Galloway, as an anti-Semitic stooge of Iran, and Williamson et al want is for Starmer to just attack Israel for being Jewish. Which is essentially what Corbyn did. Starmer’s not doing so. He also has limited room for manoeuvre ironically because a party with such a grim recent history of racism has to tread warily in case it is accused of slipping backwards. As a result, he’s labelled a tool of Israel.

    The really grim irony is that those using Gaza to play politics in this country are contriving, by stoking division and hurling abuse, to turn matters in such a way that it won’t even be possible to have a sensible conversation about what we could really do to try and help sort matters out.
    Which brings us to Sunak's "event" last night. Was it designed to calm or inflame? I really have no idea.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Mexicanpete said:

    ...

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    If we're talking about the Rochdale result rather than the Mail's perennial right-wing preoccupations, then it would be more appropriate to say that we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition unwilling of speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza.
    They have both done so repeatedly. For example, Starmer has condemned Israel for blocking humanitarian aid, Sunak has warned Israel to concentrate on hitting Hamas and not civilians, and both have called for a ceasefire.

    The issue is that this doesn’t appease the alarmingly large chunk in this country including more than a few on these boards who are quite happy to see Israel be brutally attacked but furious when they strike back. Because ultimately like Galloway they’re not allies of Gaza - they don’t care about the Gazan people any more than Hamas or Netanyahu do - but haters of Israel.

    There’s plenty to criticise in Israel’s response - starting with the fact that they’re far too trigger happy, moving through their dances on where civilians ought to go with the obvious intent (obvious to Egypt too, to judge by the way they’re preparing the border) to drive large numbers out of Gaza altogether, and finishing with the fact that their leader makes Trump look sane.

    But - Hamas made a decision to start this war. Hamas based its fighters in civilian areas. Hamas used UN organisations to shield its operatives. Hamas keeps hold of the hostages, without which Israel’s excuses for going on would vanish. Hamas bears a huge responsibility for what happens.

    And yet I see far too many who refuse to accept that, and falsely label those who refuse to take their stupid one-eyed position born of racism as ‘genocide deniers’ ‘baby murderers’ etc.

    If you look for heroes in the Middle East, you look in the wrong place. But many people do see heroes in Hamas and that tells me all I need to know about their character.

    What Galloway, as an anti-Semitic stooge of Iran, and Williamson et al want is for Starmer to just attack Israel for being Jewish. Which is essentially what Corbyn did. Starmer’s not doing so. He also has limited room for manoeuvre ironically because a party with such a grim recent history of racism has to tread warily in case it is accused of slipping backwards. As a result, he’s labelled a tool of Israel.

    The really grim irony is that those using Gaza to play politics in this country are contriving, by stoking division and hurling abuse, to turn matters in such a way that it won’t even be possible to have a sensible conversation about what we could really do to try and help sort matters out.
    Which brings us to Sunak's "event" last night. Was it designed to calm or inflame? I really have no idea.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Foxy said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @RochdalePioneers, was sad inded to see Galloway and his divisive brand of politics elected in your home town.

    Andrew Neil having a right go at both Sunak and Starmer in his DM piece this morning. He remembers being a young journalist through the troubles of the 1970s, and fears that things are going down the route of disfunction again - and the whole political class doesn’t appear to know or care about solutions, fiddling with Rome burns.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13146799/ANDREW-NEIL-Sunak-Starmer-Twitter.html

    ‘The UK is drifting, unhappy, losing faith in previously respected institutions (like the police), buffeted by extremists (often allowed to run amok), dismayed by decline, angry at the inability of the political class to do anything about it, despairing that the Westminster politico/media bubble pursues an agenda, issues and priorities (look at the obsession with Lee Anderson) which are not most people’s — and had enough of being lectured to by a disconnected, de haut en bas chattering class.

    ‘Yet we have a Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition incapable of speaking up for the moderate majority, who still have pride in their country and are desperate for strong leadership and guidance through the current morass — plus some hope/sign things will get better — all within the bounds of traditional British tolerance and fair play. This vacuum is dangerous.’

    The Conservative party has spent the last few years whipping up Culture War against "the enemy within" and it is the core of their electoral strategy. They have deliberately and consciously whipped up hate against minority Britons.

    Complaining about division and sectarianism is like a fish complaining that the water is wet.
    So Sunak against Asians ? Cleverly against blacks ? Shapps against jews ? Badenoch against women ?

    I suspect not.
    Have you really not noticed the Tory party and press stoking Culture War?
    No, but have noticed some small pushback against an increasingly aggressive attempt by a vocal and well-connected minority on the left, to push an agenda of division across society, starting with treating people according to the colour of their skin rather than the content of their character, and moving on to the overt sexulisation of children.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806

    NEW THREAD

  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,169
    Monksfield said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting article I stumbled across.

    "Big Tech has stolen our children
    Fear of the smartphone isn't a moral panic
    Matt Feeney"

    https://unherd.com/2024/03/big-tech-has-stolen-our-children/

    Unherd is rapidly becoming a parody of itself.
    Ownd by the guy behind GB News, who now wants to corner the market in right wing clickbait by adding the Telegraph and Spectator:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/oct/28/loud-and-uncowed-how-unherd-owner-paul-marshall-became-britains-newest-media-mogul

    Won't anyone speak up for the unheard super rich hedge fund managers?

  • darkage
    darkage Posts: 5,398
    edited March 2024
    (deleted - reposted in next thread)
  • Selebian
    Selebian Posts: 9,544
    Andy_JS said:

    Anabobazina said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I didn't know that long wave radio was used to calculate many people's heating bills.

    "BBC switch-off to force almost a million households to get smart meters
    Longwave radio service that tells meters when to switch to low fees to be deactivated"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/01/one-million-households-forced-smart-meters-bbc

    Nor me. Every day is a school day. Interesting and somewhat bizarre.
    Even for me, this is a bit of an old-fashioned way of doing things!
    Some were simply on local clocks. In student (PhD) days my now wife and I lived in a rented flat. The E7 clock went slow and moved cheap time into the day. We didn't notice for a while and then we decided not to notice :smile:
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,251
    stodge said:

    FrankBooth said:

    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
    I am and I'm not.

    Joshua Garfield sits on Newham Council and is the only Jewish councillor on the authority. His response to what happened was superb and interesting to see the broad support he enjoyed.

    To quote Councillor Garfield "it'll take a lot more than that to bully me out of public life". We can't let some hissing be played up to inflate a sense of national crisis and drama. I agree we must ensure MPs can go about their business and again my local MP was one of those attacked so I understand it.
    People have different limits, and those limits can change over time and situation. Being abused in the streets once or twice might be able to be ignored; having it happen frequently might make someone feel differently (*). Likewise, if it was to happen to you by yourself, you might be able to shrug it off more easily than if it happened when you are with your young kids. Or if it is a group of people, rather than an individual.

    TBF, I think the people doing this should be named and shamed. IMV, when I see people behaving like this, the *cause* they are supposed to be 'supporting' gets a black mark.

    (*) A bit like stop-and-search being okay once or twice; if it happens to you regularly, you feel differently.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    edited March 2024
    xx
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