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You get what you vote for – politicalbetting.com

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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    Agreed. See also: his height.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    edited March 1
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    So what do we need from our politicians?

    I would say a range of policies that look to generate hope for our young in particular.

    That means much more housing, both social and private.
    It means the sort of policies that were talked about in levelling up but which were never funded.
    It means sorting out the ridiculous burden of further educational debt.
    It means policies that encourage training by the same sort of incentives that we saw for capital spending.
    It means rebalancing the tax burden away from those who work for a living towards those with capital.
    It means abolishing the triple lock and accepting that pensioners simply cannot be protected from the pain of the young and working poor.
    It means prioritising transport and other infrastructure.
    It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.
    It means recognition that the purpose of government is not to provide a rather cosy lifestyle for the few million that work for it but to provide the actual services that people need.

    Have I lost every seat yet?

    'It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.' May's 2017 lost majority after her similar dementia tax plans put paid to either of the main parties ever touching that for at home care, of course it already applies for residential care anyway.

    Further education debt requires a proper market in fees, so economics at Cambridge or law at Oxford or medicine at Imperial should rightly cost the most as those graduates will earn most and creative arts or humanities subjects at lower ranked universities cost least as those graduates will tend to earn least after university.

    Hunt has already cut NI and may yet cut income tax.

    The minimum wage and benefits have been increased with inflation anyway, abolishing the triple lock would hit the poorest pensioners reliant on the state pension most, those with big private pensions would hardly notice any difference
    "rightly cost most" - secure for you and your rich friends. That's the trouble. Means crap quality results, because selecting from a smaller pool. Not what the UK wants or needs.
    No whatever your background you are likely to get a very high earning job with those top end courses and of course loans and fees are paid after graduation not upfront. Plus of course scholarships and bursaries can be funded for living costs for those from poorer backgrounds
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    So he's the son in law of the friend of someone who is the former head of a party that has Modi as a member?

    And that makes Modi Sunak's mentor?

    You don't find that tenuous? Or racist? I do.

    By that kind of twisted logic Kevin Bacon is the mentor of the last few Prime Ministers and everyone else.
    There's a connection. 'Mentor' is possibly going too far but I don't see how it's racist.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,398
    edited March 1
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    Tonto is a different sort of Indian.
    Calling Native Americans "Indians" = racism by Columbus!
    Is it really Columbus's fault that he was so poor at geography?
    An excuse to post Mitchell & Webb!

    Columbus: We sailed west to find them didn't we? They're to the west of us, therefore they're the West Indies.
    Mate: Yeah but I thought the whole point was that we were proving that the world is a globe so if these truly are the Indies .... then they must be the East Indies, the most easterly point of the Indies

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOBhf8f7cXM
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    What a nonsense Daily Fail article
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,783
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    So he's the son in law of the friend of someone who is the former head of a party that has Modi as a member?

    And that makes Modi Sunak's mentor?

    You don't find that tenuous? Or racist? I do.

    By that kind of twisted logic Kevin Bacon is the mentor of the last few Prime Ministers and everyone else.
    I have said nothing about race, just pointed out Sunaks close family connection to Hindutva politics.
    It’s a tad “Khan controlled by islamists, who are his mates” though.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379
    pigeon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    pigeon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thoughtful article @RochdalePioneers about a rather bleak subject matter

    Sadly for places like Rochdale I cannot see any future apart from more of the same

    Nowadays in large urban conurbations the main focus seems to be the nearest big city to the detriment of the towns surrounding it.

    The sad reality of places like Rochdale is the likes of labour did nothing for them and neither did the Tories and local politicians just play the blame game. To which we get a vacuum which gets filled.

    It’s all very sad.

    Nobody with any power to improve the lot of poor people places like this is interested in doing so. The value of Rochdale and other such places, as far as they're concerned, is as somewhere to dump and abandon unwanted asylum seekers and homeless families from London, and that's probably about it.
    Very much in their interest to keep'em keen though. Red wall, blue wall, small boats, HS2 will-it-won't-it, levelling up, powerhouse, maybe some tax credits. Even a new Industrial Estate. With roads, if you're lucky.

    But basically, vote for us or it'll be even worse. And if you die young, that'd be just spiffing.
    Yeah pretty much, but it's all lies of course. It doesn't matter who people vote for, they will get the same policies - which, broadly speaking, are:

    1. We don't want to raise taxes on people who can pay more, because they are our own social class (ageing homeowners, business executives and robber landlords) and they have far too much money and/or too many votes to be touched, so...

    2. We're going to make sure that we fill the country with floods of people and don't build any houses for them (we pretend to be interested in doing something about these problems but we are liars,) in order to try to suppress wages to suit business and pump up house prices to appeal to the voters we actually care about

    3. Without adequate revenue we have no choice but to run everything (except the state pension) down, but we're going to deflect blame from ourselves by pinning it all on the mistakes of the last lot and/or profligate local councils

    And thus the Red and Blue Tories, who are functionally identical, will throw the ticking time bomb of systemic socio-economic collapse between them every few years, doing almost nothing to address it and keeping their fingers crossed that they're either in Opposition or already dead of old age by the time it detonates.
    Been saying the same for a while, new labour and tories, same policies....they led us here more of the same is ridiculous isnt going to get us out of it. Sadly the people proposing more of the same arent being affected so they dont see a problem
    Yep. The next Parliament is going to be something approaching a mirror image of the 2010-15 one: this time with Starmer and Reeves reprising Cameron and Osborne, Labour cutting virtually everything (except the state pension) and blaming it on the Tories.

    It's not just the Conservative Party that needs flushing down the toilet.
    Zzz. What do you suggest instead, given the state of the public finances? A leftist twist on Trussism perhaps?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,046

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    So he's the son in law of the friend of someone who is the former head of a party that has Modi as a member?

    And that makes Modi Sunak's mentor?

    You don't find that tenuous? Or racist? I do.

    By that kind of twisted logic Kevin Bacon is the mentor of the last few Prime Ministers and everyone else.
    There's a connection. 'Mentor' is possibly going too far but I don't see how it's racist.
    Nowhere near as racist as Netanyahu is towards the Palestinians.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,457
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    So he's the son in law of the friend of someone who is the former head of a party that has Modi as a member?

    And that makes Modi Sunak's mentor?

    You don't find that tenuous? Or racist? I do.

    By that kind of twisted logic Kevin Bacon is the mentor of the last few Prime Ministers and everyone else.
    I have said nothing about race, just pointed out Sunaks close family connection to Hindutva politics.
    Being married to someone whose father is friends with someone who is connected to someone ... is not a connection. That's 4 degrees removed from Sunak already. There's no direct connection between Sunak and Modi other than race.

    Are you responsible for everyone your wife's father's friends have ever been connected with?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    So what do we need from our politicians?

    I would say a range of policies that look to generate hope for our young in particular.

    That means much more housing, both social and private.
    It means the sort of policies that were talked about in levelling up but which were never funded.
    It means sorting out the ridiculous burden of further educational debt.
    It means policies that encourage training by the same sort of incentives that we saw for capital spending.
    It means rebalancing the tax burden away from those who work for a living towards those with capital.
    It means abolishing the triple lock and accepting that pensioners simply cannot be protected from the pain of the young and working poor.
    It means prioritising transport and other infrastructure.
    It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.
    It means recognition that the purpose of government is not to provide a rather cosy lifestyle for the few million that work for it but to provide the actual services that people need.

    Have I lost every seat yet?

    'It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.' May's 2017 lost majority after her similar dementia tax plans put paid to either of the main parties ever touching that for at home care, of course it already applies for residential care anyway.

    Further education debt requires a proper market in fees, so economics at Cambridge or law at Oxford or medicine at Imperial should rightly cost the most as those graduates will earn most and creative arts or humanities subjects at lower ranked universities cost least as those graduates will tend to earn least after university.

    Hunt has already cut NI and may yet cut income tax.

    The minimum wage and benefits have been increased with inflation anyway, abolishing the triple lock would hit the poorest pensioners reliant on the state pension most, those with big private pensions would hardly notice any difference
    May was right about social care. Goodness knows how long it will take us to recognise that.
    The cut in NI was welcome but a very small step in the right direction. The idea that earnings are taxed more heavily than rental receipts or dividends is frankly obscene.
    If the poorest pensioners need more help then it should be given to them on a needs basis, not as a universal gift to many of the most cash rich in our society.
    Never, nobody is going to vote to see the inheritance of their parents house snatched away from them. I campaigned in Ilford North in the week after the 2017 Tory manifesto launch and had doors slammed in my face and very angry responses, it is a guaranteed vote loser of a policy. Better to come up with some form of social care insurance model.

    Pensioners of course also vote more than any other age group, so neither main party is very keen on angering them by ending Triple Lock, the Tories certainly won't as without pensioners they are even more stuffed than now, Labour might but only if all else fails
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141
    edited March 1
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Ratters said:


    George Parker
    @GeorgeWParker

    Not sure if it’s the new YouGov poll giving Labour a 26-point lead, but there’s growing chat at Westminster that next week’s Budget could herald a May election. Crazy? “Beyond May I see only risks,” says one Tory insider. No10 sources insist they are still working to autumn.

    https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1763637594976305422

    I don't see it.

    May guarantees a horrific defeat.

    Autumn or later could result in a moderate defeat or an even more horrific defeat.

    I'm not sure Sunak cares whether the first or last outcome happens, so he'll gamble in hope of the second coming true.
    It’s the modelling on boats.

    The fact there’s also a covid report in summer, a million more people taking on higher mortgage payments this year, forcast for lack of growth until saved, not by the government, but by Taylor Swift, and now economists predicting energy costs will send inflation going back upwards again, before the end of the year - all this forecasting is meaningless, mere hundreds and thousands on top a trifle.

    Europe properly filled the tank on immigrants last year, to record levels, previously when this has happened, 12 months later the Channel has experienced record crossings. The May 2nd trifle is the UK governments modelling shows an explosion of unpreventable boat crossings from July onwards.

    If during July this years trend crosses last years comparative line, a year due to the clever Albanian deal, the “let me tell you - we have reduced boat crossings by a third, Mr Speaker” oft repeated line Rishi can fairly campaign on today, will no longer exist. It’s gone. If, whilst still in government waiting for that general election, this years trend crosses the worst ever comparative year line, the Conservative Party itself will no longer exist. Simples.

    What happens to the Tory party if the modelling proves true, as it has proved spot on in previous years - they are still in government waiting for that election - worse than that off on their summer holidays, whilst boat crossings eclipse last years and keep on coming?

    A picture saves me typing a thousand words - just think of the Raft of the Medusa.

    A Raft of the Medusa political event.

    It’s May 2nd.
    Also, if he leaves it longer than May, there'll be no one left to campaign for the Tories. They'll lose another massive chunk of councillors. Do it in May, Rishi. You'll lose horribly, but less horribly than if you leave it.
    Sunak clearly wants to be PM for some reason, so I still think he'll choose to remain PM for an extra seven months by holding on for an election in December.
    Sunak would rather be PM for as long as possible than go a bit early even if it saves a few Tory MPs seats. Unless he gets a Major 1992 shock victory he will be off to corporate boards in Silicon Valley or some IMF or WTO job as soon as possible after losing a general election anyway and his main priority is ensuring he has a reasonable period as PM on that CV he will be taking to those jobs
    So there we have it. A Tory member sums it up: Sunak's "main priority is ensuring he has a reasonable period as PM on that CV".

    Not serving his country. Not ensuring Britain thrives. Not improving the lot of its citizens. Oh no - polishing up his CV is the main priority.

    I think you've nailed it tbf.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,559
    DavidL said:

    So what do we need from our politicians?

    I would say a range of policies that look to generate hope for our young in particular.

    That means much more housing, both social and private.
    It means the sort of policies that were talked about in levelling up but which were never funded.
    It means sorting out the ridiculous burden of further educational debt.
    It means policies that encourage training by the same sort of incentives that we saw for capital spending.
    It means rebalancing the tax burden away from those who work for a living towards those with capital.
    It means abolishing the triple lock and accepting that pensioners simply cannot be protected from the pain of the young and working poor.
    It means prioritising transport and other infrastructure.
    It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.
    It means recognition that the purpose of government is not to provide a rather cosy lifestyle for the few million that work for it but to provide the actual services that people need.

    Have I lost every seat yet?

    I would probably quibble with a few details, and a few things you have left out, but I agree with the main thrust of your argument. Britain needs to be prepared to look its problems squarely in the face and not shrink from the hard work of fixing them. It needs to be serious about what this entails, and gain a sense of collective purpose in making a better country for everyone that people can be proud of.

    Good luck with that.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would rather be PM for as long as possible than go a bit early even if it saves a few Tory MPs seats.

    If he doesn't go early, he won't be PM anyway.

    Better to lose an election than get Trussed by Tory MPs
    There is no viable alternative to Sunak most Tory MPs would get behind before the the election anyway, short of somehow bringing Boris back
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    pigeon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    pigeon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thoughtful article @RochdalePioneers about a rather bleak subject matter

    Sadly for places like Rochdale I cannot see any future apart from more of the same

    Nowadays in large urban conurbations the main focus seems to be the nearest big city to the detriment of the towns surrounding it.

    The sad reality of places like Rochdale is the likes of labour did nothing for them and neither did the Tories and local politicians just play the blame game. To which we get a vacuum which gets filled.

    It’s all very sad.

    Nobody with any power to improve the lot of poor people places like this is interested in doing so. The value of Rochdale and other such places, as far as they're concerned, is as somewhere to dump and abandon unwanted asylum seekers and homeless families from London, and that's probably about it.
    Very much in their interest to keep'em keen though. Red wall, blue wall, small boats, HS2 will-it-won't-it, levelling up, powerhouse, maybe some tax credits. Even a new Industrial Estate. With roads, if you're lucky.

    But basically, vote for us or it'll be even worse. And if you die young, that'd be just spiffing.
    Yeah pretty much, but it's all lies of course. It doesn't matter who people vote for, they will get the same policies - which, broadly speaking, are:

    1. We don't want to raise taxes on people who can pay more, because they are our own social class (ageing homeowners, business executives and robber landlords) and they have far too much money and/or too many votes to be touched, so...

    2. We're going to make sure that we fill the country with floods of people and don't build any houses for them (we pretend to be interested in doing something about these problems but we are liars,) in order to try to suppress wages to suit business and pump up house prices to appeal to the voters we actually care about

    3. Without adequate revenue we have no choice but to run everything (except the state pension) down, but we're going to deflect blame from ourselves by pinning it all on the mistakes of the last lot and/or profligate local councils

    And thus the Red and Blue Tories, who are functionally identical, will throw the ticking time bomb of systemic socio-economic collapse between them every few years, doing almost nothing to address it and keeping their fingers crossed that they're either in Opposition or already dead of old age by the time it detonates.
    Been saying the same for a while, new labour and tories, same policies....they led us here more of the same is ridiculous isnt going to get us out of it. Sadly the people proposing more of the same arent being affected so they dont see a problem
    Yep. The next Parliament is going to be something approaching a mirror image of the 2010-15 one: this time with Starmer and Reeves reprising Cameron and Osborne, Labour cutting virtually everything (except the state pension) and blaming it on the Tories.

    It's not just the Conservative Party that needs flushing down the toilet.
    Zzz. What do you suggest instead, given the state of the public finances? A leftist twist on Trussism perhaps?
    Pagan would scrap all public spending because, after all, all he gets for it is his bins emptied, nothing else.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210

    pigeon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    pigeon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thoughtful article @RochdalePioneers about a rather bleak subject matter

    Sadly for places like Rochdale I cannot see any future apart from more of the same

    Nowadays in large urban conurbations the main focus seems to be the nearest big city to the detriment of the towns surrounding it.

    The sad reality of places like Rochdale is the likes of labour did nothing for them and neither did the Tories and local politicians just play the blame game. To which we get a vacuum which gets filled.

    It’s all very sad.

    Nobody with any power to improve the lot of poor people places like this is interested in doing so. The value of Rochdale and other such places, as far as they're concerned, is as somewhere to dump and abandon unwanted asylum seekers and homeless families from London, and that's probably about it.
    Very much in their interest to keep'em keen though. Red wall, blue wall, small boats, HS2 will-it-won't-it, levelling up, powerhouse, maybe some tax credits. Even a new Industrial Estate. With roads, if you're lucky.

    But basically, vote for us or it'll be even worse. And if you die young, that'd be just spiffing.
    Yeah pretty much, but it's all lies of course. It doesn't matter who people vote for, they will get the same policies - which, broadly speaking, are:

    1. We don't want to raise taxes on people who can pay more, because they are our own social class (ageing homeowners, business executives and robber landlords) and they have far too much money and/or too many votes to be touched, so...

    2. We're going to make sure that we fill the country with floods of people and don't build any houses for them (we pretend to be interested in doing something about these problems but we are liars,) in order to try to suppress wages to suit business and pump up house prices to appeal to the voters we actually care about

    3. Without adequate revenue we have no choice but to run everything (except the state pension) down, but we're going to deflect blame from ourselves by pinning it all on the mistakes of the last lot and/or profligate local councils

    And thus the Red and Blue Tories, who are functionally identical, will throw the ticking time bomb of systemic socio-economic collapse between them every few years, doing almost nothing to address it and keeping their fingers crossed that they're either in Opposition or already dead of old age by the time it detonates.
    Been saying the same for a while, new labour and tories, same policies....they led us here more of the same is ridiculous isnt going to get us out of it. Sadly the people proposing more of the same arent being affected so they dont see a problem
    Yep. The next Parliament is going to be something approaching a mirror image of the 2010-15 one: this time with Starmer and Reeves reprising Cameron and Osborne, Labour cutting virtually everything (except the state pension) and blaming it on the Tories.

    It's not just the Conservative Party that needs flushing down the toilet.
    Zzz. What do you suggest instead, given the state of the public finances? A leftist twist on Trussism perhaps?
    Unlike 2010-2015 I expect much higher taxes though once the election is out the way from a Labour chancellor
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,074
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    So what do we need from our politicians?

    I would say a range of policies that look to generate hope for our young in particular.

    That means much more housing, both social and private.
    It means the sort of policies that were talked about in levelling up but which were never funded.
    It means sorting out the ridiculous burden of further educational debt.
    It means policies that encourage training by the same sort of incentives that we saw for capital spending.
    It means rebalancing the tax burden away from those who work for a living towards those with capital.
    It means abolishing the triple lock and accepting that pensioners simply cannot be protected from the pain of the young and working poor.
    It means prioritising transport and other infrastructure.
    It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.
    It means recognition that the purpose of government is not to provide a rather cosy lifestyle for the few million that work for it but to provide the actual services that people need.

    Have I lost every seat yet?

    'It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.' May's 2017 lost majority after her similar dementia tax plans put paid to either of the main parties ever touching that for at home care, of course it already applies for residential care anyway.

    Further education debt requires a proper market in fees, so economics at Cambridge or law at Oxford or medicine at Imperial should rightly cost the most as those graduates will earn most and creative arts or humanities subjects at lower ranked universities cost least as those graduates will tend to earn least after university.

    Hunt has already cut NI and may yet cut income tax.

    The minimum wage and benefits have been increased with inflation anyway, abolishing the triple lock would hit the poorest pensioners reliant on the state pension most, those with big private pensions would hardly notice any difference
    "rightly cost most" - secure for you and your rich friends. That's the trouble. Means crap quality results, because selecting from a smaller pool. Not what the UK wants or needs.
    No whatever your background you are likely to get a very high earning job with those top end courses and of course loans and fees are paid after graduation not upfront. Plus of course scholarships and bursaries can be funded for living costs for those from poorer backgrounds
    No, because the extra money is still going to be a huge deterrent.

    The odd few pence flung at the poor doesn't compensate, Lord Bountiful, I'm afraid.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,312
    It's not often I go to the cinema, but can the Dune enthusiasts tell me whether it's worth going to see Part 2 if I haven't seen Part 1?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,339

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    edited March 1
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    So what do we need from our politicians?

    I would say a range of policies that look to generate hope for our young in particular.

    That means much more housing, both social and private.
    It means the sort of policies that were talked about in levelling up but which were never funded.
    It means sorting out the ridiculous burden of further educational debt.
    It means policies that encourage training by the same sort of incentives that we saw for capital spending.
    It means rebalancing the tax burden away from those who work for a living towards those with capital.
    It means abolishing the triple lock and accepting that pensioners simply cannot be protected from the pain of the young and working poor.
    It means prioritising transport and other infrastructure.
    It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.
    It means recognition that the purpose of government is not to provide a rather cosy lifestyle for the few million that work for it but to provide the actual services that people need.

    Have I lost every seat yet?

    'It means accepting that social care should be paid for out of the estates of the deceased rather than taxing the minimum wage worker.' May's 2017 lost majority after her similar dementia tax plans put paid to either of the main parties ever touching that for at home care, of course it already applies for residential care anyway.

    Further education debt requires a proper market in fees, so economics at Cambridge or law at Oxford or medicine at Imperial should rightly cost the most as those graduates will earn most and creative arts or humanities subjects at lower ranked universities cost least as those graduates will tend to earn least after university.

    Hunt has already cut NI and may yet cut income tax.

    The minimum wage and benefits have been increased with inflation anyway, abolishing the triple lock would hit the poorest pensioners reliant on the state pension most, those with big private pensions would hardly notice any difference
    "rightly cost most" - secure for you and your rich friends. That's the trouble. Means crap quality results, because selecting from a smaller pool. Not what the UK wants or needs.
    No whatever your background you are likely to get a very high earning job with those top end courses and of course loans and fees are paid after graduation not upfront. Plus of course scholarships and bursaries can be funded for living costs for those from poorer backgrounds
    No, because the extra money is still going to be a huge deterrent.

    The odd few pence flung at the poor doesn't compensate, Lord Bountiful, I'm afraid.
    No it isn't, doing economics at Cambridge and becoming an investment banker, doing law at Oxford and joining a city law firm or top barristers chambers or doing medicine at Imperial and becoming a surgeon will always be attractive because of the very high earnings you will make over your career which will more than pay off the higher fees.

    We have to face the reality that we need a proper market in fees, not the absurd scenario now where creative arts at Luton university costs the same as economics at Cambridge. Cut fees for the former and raise them for the latter
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    I tend to think if Lee Anderson had claimed Sadiq Khan had been mentored by Islamists and provided such a tenuous connection you would have been less than charitable about it.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141
    edited March 1

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
    You've got to admire the devotion of the DM, Express and Telegraph to the lost cause.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
    The trouble is someone's got to do it and the entire political liberal elite/left won't.

    As Christopher Hitchens said 'If the left don't stand up for free speech*, fascists will.'

    * Edit as appropriate
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,065
    geoffw said:

    It's not often I go to the cinema, but can the Dune enthusiasts tell me whether it's worth going to see Part 2 if I haven't seen Part 1?

    I haven't seen it yet but if you have read the book it shouldn't be that hard to pick up. Certainly part 1 was way closer to the book than any previous version.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    I tend to think if Lee Anderson had claimed Sadiq Khan had been mentored by Islamists and provided such a tenuous connection you would have been less than charitable about it.
    I think Sunak's failure to acknowledge Islamophobia in his party does bear more than a little resemblance to Corbyn's failure to acknowledge anti-semitism in his Labour Party.

  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628
    edited March 1

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Tbf it's a pretty perennial statement.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,065

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    And CNN have to stop covering a speech by Trump because it is such a ridiculous farrago of lies.
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/3/1/2226856/-CNN-does-it-right-cutting-off-Trump-in-the-middle-of-lie-riddled-speech?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_4&pm_medium=web

    Which is the more serious?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,046

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
    The trouble is someone's got to do it and the entire political liberal elite/left won't.

    As Christopher Hitchens said 'If the left don't stand up for free speech*, fascists will.'

    * Edit as appropriate
    "Free speech" hopefully being allowed to criticise Israeli policy without being branded anti-semitic?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
    How do I know which DM article you are referring to?

    Plus it's just good manners to provide a link, costs you no time at all and saves anyone who is interested in your comment the hassle of trying to decide which and where it is.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    I tend to think if Lee Anderson had claimed Sadiq Khan had been mentored by Islamists and provided such a tenuous connection you would have been less than charitable about it.
    I think Sunak's failure to acknowledge Islamophobia in his party does bear more than a little resemblance to Corbyn's failure to acknowledge anti-semitism in his Labour Party.

    I don't know the scale of the problem but so far as I was aware Anderson has been suspended.

    The truth is we've had months of anitsemitic protests, threats to MPs, parliamentary procedures changes as a result of those fears, topped off by a farcical by election with a possibly suspiciously high postal vote won by a vile race-baiter. And yet all people like yourself want to talk about is islamophobia in the Tory party.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
    How do I know which DM article you are referring to?

    Plus it's just good manners to provide a link, costs you no time at all and saves anyone who is interested in your comment the hassle of trying to decide which and where it is.
    In most cases a link should be required or at the very least an explanation of the objection
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,382

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    Agreed. See also: his height.
    We give such nastiness short shift here.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    DavidL said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    And CNN have to stop covering a speech by Trump because it is such a ridiculous farrago of lies.
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/3/1/2226856/-CNN-does-it-right-cutting-off-Trump-in-the-middle-of-lie-riddled-speech?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_4&pm_medium=web

    Which is the more serious?
    Both are unsuitable to be the next POTUS though Biden is a decent person and 'tempus fugit' in his case, Trump is ghastly
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Yes but even if he ended up in a coma permanently he would still get 45-50% against Trump
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Yes but even if he ended up in a coma permanently he would still get 45-50% against Trump
    Nasty comment
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,380

    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul
    ·
    6m
    A brave speech from Rishi Sunak – but who is he trying to persuade?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1763689425064571133

    ===

    The Times has him literally imploring for something to be done.

    He's the bloody PM.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,688


    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul
    ·
    6m
    A brave speech from Rishi Sunak – but who is he trying to persuade?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1763689425064571133

    ===

    The Times has him literally imploring for something to be done.

    He's the bloody PM.

    He "called for" something, didn't he.

    Yup.

    He "called for" something.

    Well, every boy needs a hobby... :(
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Yes but even if he ended up in a coma permanently he would still get 45-50% against Trump
    Nasty comment
    Is it?
    I took it as @HYUFD'S often subtly sly humour.
    He's not far wrong either. I'd certainly vote that way.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,153
    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The more I’ve thought about it, I think Rishi’s apparently trivial “I will save us all from all this nasty division” Sermonette to us could become quite important to the history’s written of this election year.

    Much the same way as infamy of John Major’s Back to Basic’s reference in political history, Sunak might just have unleashed a rod of thorns for his and the Conservative Party’s own back.

    From now, anything from him or his party, that stokes or exploits division, is going to be mercilessly leapt on as disgusting hypocrisy.

    That’s 100% of the counter attack on woke - references to Starmer not knowing what is a woman, the language used about boat crossings and immigration in every single Conservative election leaflet, every article Braverman or any Tory writes for a newspaper and every interview any of them give, cannot now contain anything that allows opponents and media to yell “Go and then Sunak, put action where your mouth is - act!”

    Before you dismiss this as nothing this evening, Sunak may just have made one very serious political blunder.

    Rishi is just as much an Islamophobe as his mentor, one Narendra Modi.
    What makes you call Narendra Modi his mentor?
    "Sunak has been received warmly in Delhi, where he has been accompanied by his wife, Akshata Murty, the daughter of one of India’s most famous business tycoons. He said in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law”."

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    That doesn't make Modi his mentor. The India's son in law thing was what the Indian media dubbed him. You're not seriously endorsing this nonsense Foxy?

    Have you gone full tonto?
    As I said, racism.

    Indian therefore Modi.

    If he wasn't Hindu, they wouldn't say it.

    There's a lot to criticise Sunak for. Doing so via his race is just demeaning.
    You're the one bringing race into it. Did Sunak say in advance of the trip that he hoped to be greeted like “India’s son-in-law” or not? I don't know but that's what the Guardian reported:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/09/rishi-sunak-to-meet-india-pm-narendra-modi-to-push-for-trade-deal-but-will-avoid-bringing-up-russia
    Please explain what step is involved here in the thought process.

    "India's son in law"
    ?
    "Modi is his mentor"
    Sunak is the son-in-law of Sudha Murthy, and claims him as her protégé.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12026287/Rishi-Sunaks-mother-law-claims-reason-tycoon-husband-son-laws-success.html

    Sudha Murthy has a friendship with Sambhaji Bhide, the former head of the RSS, the Hindutva organisation.

    https://www.siasat.com/sudha-murthy-seeks-blessings-from-right-wing-leader-sambhaji-bhide-2452160/

    I tend to think if Lee Anderson had claimed Sadiq Khan had been mentored by Islamists and provided such a tenuous connection you would have been less than charitable about it.
    I think Sunak's failure to acknowledge Islamophobia in his party does bear more than a little resemblance to Corbyn's failure to acknowledge anti-semitism in his Labour Party.

    I don't know the scale of the problem but so far as I was aware Anderson has been suspended.

    The truth is we've had months of anitsemitic protests, threats to MPs, parliamentary procedures changes as a result of those fears, topped off by a farcical by election with a possibly suspiciously high postal vote won by a vile race-baiter. And yet all people like yourself want to talk about is islamophobia in the Tory party.
    That's not true. I have often condemned anti-semitism and tonight is the first time in ages I have mentioned Tory Islamophobia.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
    Indeed. Christian Horner has been misunderstood.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Yes but even if he ended up in a coma permanently he would still get 45-50% against Trump
    Nasty comment
    Is it?
    I took it as @HYUFD'S often subtly sly humour.
    He's not far wrong either. I'd certainly vote that way.
    Hardly humour conjuring up a permanent coma and maybe I am sensitive not least as my consultant told me that without my pacemaker I may not have had more than 6 months
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,100

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Do you really believe Trump is the answer? It's one or the other. I'm with HY, he may have tried to divert your gaze, but the sociopathic Trump is infinitely more dangerous than a doddery old duffer
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628
    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Do you really believe Trump is the answer? It's one or the other. I'm with HY, he may have tried to divert your gaze, but the sociopathic Trump is infinitely more dangerous than a doddery old duffer
    I have consistently dismissed the ghastly Trump and Biden is an honest person who is struggling with memory loss

    Of course if it was between the two, Biden has to win but I would prefer a younger fresher Democrat for everyone's sake

    Please do not suggest again that I have any time for Trump who is every decent persons nightmare
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998
    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
  • Options
    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,203
    Dune Part II
    Brilliant film, but Villeneuve should have kept the timeskip. Hammers home the point of Dune well (with brilliant performances by Bardem and Austin Butler), but didn't approve of some of the changes to the source material.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,922
    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    This speech wasn't anything significant - it was a repeat of the same platitudes that we have heard over and over again.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,158
    edited March 1
    for PB Muskovites . . .

    CH News - In legal fight, X blames nonprofit for millions in lost ad revenue
    After the nonprofit Center for Countering Digital Hate moved to dismiss the case, U.S. Senior District Judge Charles Breyer expressed skepticism that it could be held accountable for any damages.

    https://www.courthousenews.com/in-legal-fight-x-blames-nonprofit-for-millions-in-lost-ad-revenue/
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,264
    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,229
    POTUS Election

    A number of weeks ago I was musing on the possibility that Nikki Haley would make an interesting indepedent runner and that there was plenty of money to back it. Most of all, she had nothing to lose and there is a fairly decent Trump disliking GOP vote.

    That concept doesnt seem too far fetched as the weeks go on. She is burning someones cash just carrying on for a reason and I'm not sure its as a case of hanging about in case Trump ends up in jail.



  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998
    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    You are trying too hard

    Starmer did the right thing and let's see the percentages at the next GE
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,046

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    I salute your indefatigability, BJO!
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,934

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    1.4% - Greens 2024.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,628
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    That's one of the drawbacks of having a job where I can't even have my phone switched on, let alone spend my time following the news and posting whilst "at work".
    I'm sure you, at least, can empathise.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,621

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Here's their front page;

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/daily-mail-front-page-2024-03-02/

    Look, I know it goes against the grain of unity, solidarity and whatnot, but the Mail going on about bad people trying to create division... it sticks in the throat a teeny weeny bit.
    What shit reporting:

    "the piccolo patter of a Downing Street tree sparrow"....

    I seriously doubt that Quentin. Tree Sparrows are a bird of farmland and woodland - rare as hen's teeth in urban settings. Be astonished if it wasn't a House Sparrow.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998
    Surely the only conclusion to take from the Rochdale election is that parties need to vet their candidates much more thoroughly.

    Only the blandest will survive to become MPs.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,065

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Come on Big G you are only 1 day in.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,046
    Foxy said:

    Surely the only conclusion to take from the Rochdale election is that parties need to vet their candidates much more thoroughly.

    Only the blandest will survive to become MPs.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06rj0nn
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161
    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141
    edited March 1
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
    How do I know which DM article you are referring to?

    Plus it's just good manners to provide a link, costs you no time at all and saves anyone who is interested in your comment the hassle of trying to decide which and where it is.
    Alright mum
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
    He was INCREDIBLY overrated even from day one though, it must be said. His fans have always bemused me.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,450
    The spineless gimp channels his Churchill .

    Someone pass me a sick bag . The DE called the vomit inducing load of clap trap a “ land mark speech “ , so desperate are the right wing press to elevate the gimp into the strong leader the UK desperately needs !

    As Sunak pretends to be the saviour of democracy his cesspit party has spent years undermining it .


  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,046

    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13115769/anti-muslim-hate-britain-triple-hamas-israel.html

    "Anti-Muslim hate incidents in Britain TRIPLE since Hamas' assault on Israel - with women bearing the brunt of racist attacks, watchdog reports"
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
    He was INCREDIBLY overrated even from day one though, it must be said. His fans have always bemused me.
    He has fans?

    Mind you we don't see many Starmer fans here either.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141
    Foxy said:

    Surely the only conclusion to take from the Rochdale election is that parties need to vet their candidates much more thoroughly.

    Only the blandest will survive to become MPs.

    There is surely plenty of middle ground between 'bland' and racist/misogynist/conspiracy-theorist/sex-pest/corrupt/criminal/etc. (delete as appropriate).
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Rishi Sunak has a massive majority yet seems to be unable or unwilling to do anything.

    How is this possible? He in theory has the most power any PM has had since the early 2000s.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,250
    So why did Sunak troll everyone by bringing out the lecturn and then not calling a May general election?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I can't speak to @RochdalePioneers experience and sadness. We already know the Newham Independents, essentially kindred spirits of Galloway and his Workers' Party, will stand candidates in East Ham, West Ham & Beckton and Stratford & Bow, against sitting Labour MPs but they will find life much harder than Galloway did and of course Galloway has form in this part of the world having been Respect MP for Bethnal Green & Bow from 2005-10.

    I'm not sure what we can learn from Rochdale apart from the fact nature abhors a vacuum - with the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties all absent, Galloway and David Tully filled the gap. Tully seems the epitome of a local non-politics politician, camapigning for what local people ostensibly want (well, some of them anyway) but unaware of how, once elected, he can achieve any of it.

    Galloway had his niche and played it well - it may be the last vestige of hope for a beleaguered Conservative Party (having lost 60% of their 2019 vote, about the same proportion as at Wellingborough) to somehow portray a vote for anyone other than the Government as a vote for radical Islamic fundamentalism but I suspect most voters have a) already decided the Conservatives need a kicking or b) will be more interested in what they call "pocketbook" issues and perhaps crime.

    Not much change across the polls with the Lab/LD/Green vs Con/Reform split at 61-33 with both We Think and Techne and 60-34 with YouGov.

    More In Common, Savanta and Opinium are the only pollsters now holding the Conservatives above 25% - the others have them at 20-24%. Presumably we'll have an Opinium this Sunday evening.

    Hearing tonight that Tully didn't even realise he was entitled to a free mailshot to every elector.
    Yes, that was said on the lunchtime news.

    Though he too was making promises he couldn't keep. Re-opening a maternity unit is not in the gift of the local MP for example.

    That's one of the drawbacks of having a job where I can't even have my phone switched on, let alone spend my time following the news and posting whilst "at work".
    I'm sure you, at least, can empathise.
    Apple Watch? 😊
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
    He was INCREDIBLY overrated even from day one though, it must be said. His fans have always bemused me.
    He has fans?

    Mind you we don't see many Starmer fans here either.
    What about BJO? Always signs himself off as 'Starmer fan' [s please explain]
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998

    Foxy said:

    Surely the only conclusion to take from the Rochdale election is that parties need to vet their candidates much more thoroughly.

    Only the blandest will survive to become MPs.

    There is surely plenty of middle ground between 'bland' and racist/misogynist/conspiracy-theorist/sex-pest/corrupt/criminal/etc. (delete as appropriate).
    Only the pure shall survive.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Come on Big G you are only 1 day in.
    I have just seen this on Facebook

    I have been referring to my dear wife to my family as Grandma, Mum, Aunt etc as I forgot her name 6 years ago !!!!!!
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
    How do I know which DM article you are referring to?

    Plus it's just good manners to provide a link, costs you no time at all and saves anyone who is interested in your comment the hassle of trying to decide which and where it is.
    Alright mum
    Well, ok then. Just behave next time or you're grounded.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,110

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
    Nonsense.

    I think you'll find that anyone at the very top of UK politics/finance/admin/legal got there by sheer bloody hard work and talent. 100% of them.

    Maybe 99%.

    Or so.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379

    So why did Sunak troll everyone by bringing out the lecturn and then not calling a May general election?

    Stage fright?
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    What a nonsense Daily Fail article

    Look if you're going to do this at least provide a link to the fecking article you're aghast at.
    Do you not have the Internet?
    How do I know which DM article you are referring to?

    Plus it's just good manners to provide a link, costs you no time at all and saves anyone who is interested in your comment the hassle of trying to decide which and where it is.
    Alright mum
    Well, ok then. Just behave next time or you're grounded.
    Okay mummy, sorry x
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,100
    edited March 1

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    0 % - Keir Starmer 2024

    Corrected that for you.

    Don't forget there was no official Labour candidate. Starmer's error, but your assertion was incorrect, Starmer got zero because his candidate was withdrawn.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Come on Big G you are only 1 day in.
    I have just seen this on Facebook

    I have been referring to my dear wife to my family as Grandma, Mum, Aunt etc as I forgot her name 6 years ago !!!!!!
    Hopefully that's not on *your* FB page
  • Options
    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    ohnotnow said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    If you're launching a moral crusade, you have to be willing to spot the plank in your own eye.
    This speech needed making three months ago. And action taken.
    Instead anyone with even the mildest and most measured criticism or reservations about Netanyahu was portrayed as an anti-Semite for pure political advantage.
    And here's where we end up.
    It's Back to Basics.
    But with an economy in the toilet.
    Happy days.

    Sunaks lack of political nous is quite outstanding in a party leader.
    He got there by a stupendous run of luck, rather than any political skill. It shows, albeit his luck ran out the day he entered No 10.
    Nonsense.

    I think you'll find that anyone at the very top of UK politics/finance/admin/legal got there by sheer bloody hard work and talent. 100% of them.

    Maybe 99%.

    Or so.
    Sunak makes Ed M look good though. What is bemusing is how ANYONE thought he was good, including a lot of people here who have oddly decided to pretend they ever supported him.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,141

    So why did Sunak troll everyone by bringing out the lecturn and then not calling a May general election?

    Stage fright?
    They couldn't workout how to unscrew the crest?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,033

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Come on Big G you are only 1 day in.
    I have just seen this on Facebook

    I have been referring to my dear wife to my family as Grandma, Mum, Aunt etc as I forgot her name 6 years ago !!!!!!
    Hopefully that's not on *your* FB page
    It has been What's app around our family !!!!
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,379
    ….
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169

    Labour vote share in Rochdale.

    49.4% - Tony Blair 1997
    49.2% - Tony Blair 2001
    40.0% - Tony Blair 2005
    36.4% - Gordon Brown 2010
    46.1% - Ed Miliband 2015
    58.0% - Jeremy Corbyn 2017
    51.6% - Jeremy Corbyn 2019
    7.7% - Keir Starmer 2024

    In other words

    WIN
    WIN
    WIN
    LOSE
    LOSE
    LOSE
    LOSE
    MASSIVE LOSS
    PREDICTED WIN

    You support Tory Governments over Labour ones. That's fine as it goes but don't pretend you are Labour.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,998

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden mixing up Ukraine and Gaza

    Biden mixes up Ukraine and Gaza twice

    https://news.sky.com/video/share-13084812

    He has though announced more aid to Gaza to shore up his Muslim vote
    That is not the point

    He clearly is suffering as those of us who are in our 80s (I am now) can attest to in regard to memory

    And it only gets worse
    Come on Big G you are only 1 day in.
    I have just seen this on Facebook

    I have been referring to my dear wife to my family as Grandma, Mum, Aunt etc as I forgot her name 6 years ago !!!!!!
    If its fesshole time:

    I once went out with a girl for a month* before I found out her name. After the first couple of nights it seemed rather inappropriate to ask. I only found out by rifling through her handbag.

    *pre Mrs Foxy of course!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,404
    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,224
    It amazes me how we get election results like this and those in Tower Hamlets, and then the mainstream establishment still wants to pretend that all immigration is a uniformly positive thing.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    If anyone wants to look at the nutjobs that Novara Media represent, just look at the people commenting on their videos, celebrating the election of George Galloway. These people are crazy fringe lunatics.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 13,153

    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
    I am and I'm not.

    Joshua Garfield sits on Newham Council and is the only Jewish councillor on the authority. His response to what happened was superb and interesting to see the broad support he enjoyed.

    To quote Councillor Garfield "it'll take a lot more than that to bully me out of public life". We can't let some hissing be played up to inflate a sense of national crisis and drama. I agree we must ensure MPs can go about their business and again my local MP was one of those attacked so I understand it.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,716
    edited March 1
    I think this speech was also an attempt to lower the temperature slightly after the dubiously inflmmatory "mob rule", comments and lee anderson, as well as trying to capitalise on Galloway.

    As usual, Sunak was trying to ride populist snd moderate horses ar the same time, bur at least today he was also trying to moderate the ratio of that mixture itself - slightly.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,161

    stodge said:

    I'm confused.

    Rishi Sunak was, the last time I looked, Prime Minister and had a comfortable majority in Parliament. He sounds increasingly like a frustrated LOTO seeing events move beyond his control.

    The last cards in the Conservative deck are always tax cuts and an appeal for national unity against a "threat". - we are supposed to run back to the blue rosette. This, after 14 years in Government, is the equivalent of Violet Elizabeth threatening to projectile vomit after a bout of screaming.

    There may be those who think the greater threat to democracy isn't in front of the lectern but behind it. Clearly, the aim is to have us all cowering in fear of the "extremists" walking the streets.

    The extremists aren't just walking the streets, they are disrupting meetings, hissing Jewish councillors, threatening MPs to the point where their security is being seriously beefed up and police aren't able to arrest them on the day for fear of provoking a riot. Your use of inverted commas suggests you aren't even taking it seriously.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13115769/anti-muslim-hate-britain-triple-hamas-israel.html

    "Anti-Muslim hate incidents in Britain TRIPLE since Hamas' assault on Israel - with women bearing the brunt of racist attacks, watchdog reports"
    I don't doubt things have got worse for muslims.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,224

    Interesting leading article by RP - thanks!

    I see what Sunak is trying to get us to think:

    1. "There's a lot of dangerous radical Muslims. Help!"
    2. "Even Galloway has been elected by them. Help!!"
    3. "Ah, Sunak is on our side, he shares my dismay. I'd better vote for him."

    I think it will give the Tories a small uptick, but not much. Even I think Rochdale voters are entitled to send whatever message they like in a free election. It's a pity they voted for GG, but not a threat to democracy, and one can hardly blame them for being horrified about Gaza. Having a Downing Street lectern speech about it doesn't make sense, not least as Sunak's not actually proposing to do anything.

    Voting for extremists like Galloway absolutely shows a threat to democracy if such immigration is allowed to continue.

    These people have been in the UK for generations. Why do they still have such extremist views? When will integration actually happen?
This discussion has been closed.