The Return of the King at 100/1? – politicalbetting.com

williamglenn said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.

Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.

It's still immigration, though.

williamglenn said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.

Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.

Gastarbeiter?

Does anyone think the Tories could hold Wellingborough?

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

I did warn you about this last year.

https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...

I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.

I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in

Leon said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.

Really? Far Right?

Do PB-ers not read history?

The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous

Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.

Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

I did warn you about this last year.

https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...

I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.

I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in

Leon said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.

Really? Far Right?

Do PB-ers not read history?

The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous

Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.

Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.

You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.

TimS said:

In classic El Niño news from the other side of the world, cliff top properties are falling into the Pacific again.

https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1757217532921221518?s=46

During El Niño events there’s always a few of these multi-million dollar real estate landslides, then when it’s La Niña they’re back to forest fires.

I quite like that the X comment says these properties are worth $12.8m and $13m respectively.
I'd argue they are worth virtually nothing. No one would buy them.
The owners just have to hope they had insurance cover that would pay them what they would be worth if they were located 1 mile further inland.
Because those properties are going into the sea by the end of this decade.

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

I did warn you about this last year.

https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...

I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.

I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs instead.

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

I did warn you about this last year.

https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...

I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.

I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in

Leon said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.

Really? Far Right?

Do PB-ers not read history?

The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous

Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.

Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.

You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.

And the tribalism rears it's head again.

algarkirk said:

Does anyone think the Tories could hold Wellingborough?

No!

Mexicanpete said:

williamglenn said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.

No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"

That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid

If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice

There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.

Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.

Gastarbeiter?

One advantage of that approach is that you can more easily reduce the numbers if there is too much pressure on housing, or wages, or public services.

TheValiant said:

Leon said:

For me the discrepancy is, pretty much, proof positive that a large chunk of the "anguish" invoked by Gaza is, in fact, badly masked anti-Semitism

It's a veiled way to vent Jew-hatred. That's it

I think it's more the fact that most people in Europe really don't give a shiny shit about what happens in Africa.

It's (somewhat racist) expectations.

Israel is a First World Country, with democracy, trans rights and Eurovision.
Africa is the place where piles of dead people happen every other day.

.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.

The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.

TOPPING said:

148grss said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!

Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.

It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.

What possessions? My clothes? My books? My phone or laptop? Outside of that I do not really own much - I buy toiletries; I own a toothbrush and a razor. Maybe I own the bathroom in the house I live in because I paid to refurbish it because my dad refused, but outside of that? My furniture is all second hand or has been in the house since I was a literal child. I don't own a car - I use public transport. Half the stuff I use regularly to dull my mind, such as music or the odd PC game, aren't actually mine - they're rented to me. I own some cutlery, a few kitchen knives. I did buy my own fridge freezer and washer dryer (although I'm still using a 30 year old oven because I can't afford a new one any time soon).

How much do I have to not own before I'm allowed to suggest society may be a bit better if instead of allowing people to own slum empires or super yachts we redistribute some wealth to allow the millions of mal and undernourished people of this country (let alone the world) to eat? Can I only advocate for the homeless if I don't have a roof over my head (because I'm sure you'd take me much more seriously if I was pan handling on the street)? In a country where I'll be invited to "say that to my face" about some rich bastard who lives in a literal palace with literal gold all around him can I only complain about workers wages if I'm paid minimum wage to shine his shoes, or wipe his bottom?

You are doing a lot of protesting. You are living rent free in a house which is your Dad's he having been left it or somehow has it mortgage free after your mum died. I have no doubt that you would rather your mother was still alive and living in the house and I hope the discussion about it all is not too upsetting.

But the point is that you are the direct beneficiary of inherited property whoever owns it, you or your dad. And you want to dispossess people of inherited property.

Is all.

Yeah, and? I don't have the power to dispossess my dad of his inherited property, so what can I do? Do I need to go full Diogenes to hold left wing positions? Should I make sure that each message here is delivered to you via pigeon.

I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with. If I had power to change things, I would change it in a way that may disadvantage me (in that respect) to advantage others less fortunate than me. I don't see what is complicated about this.

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.

That depends on the distribution curve.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.

BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:

George Galloway MP
Nigel Farage MP
Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s)
Dave Spart MP
Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).

Can't wait.

Casino_Royale said:

.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.

The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.

Yes, it's very odd how the Conservatives have lost touch with the principle of home ownership given they always do better when home ownership goes up...

Sean_F said:

I think that any of Labour, Galloway, Reform, Lib Dems, or even just about, the Conservatives, could win Rochdale.

There's a monster raving loony on the ballot.

Sheer fantasy.

GIN1138 said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.

The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.

Yes, it's very odd how the Conservatives have lost touch with the principle of home ownership given they always do better when home ownership goes up...

The modern Conservative Party is just not very good at politics.

Casino_Royale said:

.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.

The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.

There is a larger segment of the population without the asset-ownership that gives them a stake in the status quo. That means they haven't become natural centre-right voters.

But the legacy of the Thatcher reforms is that the union movement is moribund, and social housing tenancies rare, so the natural constituency of centre-left voters is also much diminished.

This creates a more volatile electorate and it really depends on what individual catches the imagination. They are as likely to swing far right as far left, depending on the charisma of individuals.

At the moment I sense that Farage is in some ways a blocker to this on the right - he has his fans, but there's also a relatively low ceiling on his support as he repels many. On the left, Galloway and Corbyn have an even narrower appeal.

We await our populist who will bring colour and rage to British politics if Starmer fails to rise to the challenge.

pinball13 said:

Labour withdraw support for Ali in Rochdale https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098
Another U-turn...

So if he wins will he be sitting as an independent MP until the next election when Labour will have a new candidate?

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.

Yes - this is totally sustainable, the peasants would never revolt, of course they can always eat cake if there is no more bread left...

https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

max seddon
@maxseddon

Russia intends to double the number of its troops stationed along its border with the Baltic states and Finland as part of preparations for a potential military conflict with Nato within the next decade, according to Estonia’s foreign intelligence service.

GIN1138 said:

pinball13 said:

Labour withdraw support for Ali in Rochdale https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098
Another U-turn...

So if he wins will he be sitting as an independent MP until the next election when Labour will have a new candidate?

Yep.

148grss said:

TOPPING said:

148grss said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!

Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.

It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.

What possessions? My clothes? My books? My phone or laptop? Outside of that I do not really own much - I buy toiletries; I own a toothbrush and a razor. Maybe I own the bathroom in the house I live in because I paid to refurbish it because my dad refused, but outside of that? My furniture is all second hand or has been in the house since I was a literal child. I don't own a car - I use public transport. Half the stuff I use regularly to dull my mind, such as music or the odd PC game, aren't actually mine - they're rented to me. I own some cutlery, a few kitchen knives. I did buy my own fridge freezer and washer dryer (although I'm still using a 30 year old oven because I can't afford a new one any time soon).

How much do I have to not own before I'm allowed to suggest society may be a bit better if instead of allowing people to own slum empires or super yachts we redistribute some wealth to allow the millions of mal and undernourished people of this country (let alone the world) to eat? Can I only advocate for the homeless if I don't have a roof over my head (because I'm sure you'd take me much more seriously if I was pan handling on the street)? In a country where I'll be invited to "say that to my face" about some rich bastard who lives in a literal palace with literal gold all around him can I only complain about workers wages if I'm paid minimum wage to shine his shoes, or wipe his bottom?

You are doing a lot of protesting. You are living rent free in a house which is your Dad's he having been left it or somehow has it mortgage free after your mum died. I have no doubt that you would rather your mother was still alive and living in the house and I hope the discussion about it all is not too upsetting.

But the point is that you are the direct beneficiary of inherited property whoever owns it, you or your dad. And you want to dispossess people of inherited property.

Is all.

I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with.

Indeed you have. It's not mandatory you know.

rottenborough said:

GIN1138 said:

pinball13 said:

Labour withdraw support for Ali in Rochdale https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098
Another U-turn...

So if he wins will he be sitting as an independent MP until the next election when Labour will have a new candidate?

Yep.

But he isn’t George Galloway with all the baggage he creates so it Ali being elected wouldn’t be the worst outcome

In lighter political news, Jon Stewart is back weekly hosting The Daily Show from now until the election.

Episode 1: “INDecision 2024, what the f&#k are we doing?”
https://youtube.com/watch?v=NpBPm0b9deQ

We know his own view on the election, but he’s never been afraid to take on anyone and everyone.

So now we’re in the situation where three of the most trusted political commentators, according to a poll the other week, are comedians: Stewart, Bill Maher, and Joe Rogan, which can only make one laugh at the rest of them.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sean_F said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.

Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.

Champagne Socialist, dear boy.

Toodle pip!

LostPassword said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.

The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.

There is a larger segment of the population without the asset-ownership that gives them a stake in the status quo. That means they haven't become natural centre-right voters.

But the legacy of the Thatcher reforms is that the union movement is moribund, and social housing tenancies rare, so the natural constituency of centre-left voters is also much diminished.

This creates a more volatile electorate and it really depends on what individual catches the imagination. They are as likely to swing far right as far left, depending on the charisma of individuals.

At the moment I sense that Farage is in some ways a blocker to this on the right - he has his fans, but there's also a relatively low ceiling on his support as he repels many. On the left, Galloway and Corbyn have an even narrower appeal.

We await our populist who will bring colour and rage to British politics if Starmer fails to rise to the challenge.

Doubt it. FPTP and the existence of the parliamentary Conservative Party is what protects us from the worst extremes of right-wing populism. As Boris ultimately found out.

Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.

Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.

isam said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sean_F said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.

Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.

It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”

Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner

Because he can afford to make himself poorer, when poorer people do not. (Not that I particularly enjoy this form of argument).

rottenborough said:

Sean_F said:

https://unherd.com/2024/02/andrew-sullivan-what-i-got-wrong-about-trump/

I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).

Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.

That was also my impression.

148grss said:

isam said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sean_F said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.

Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.

It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”

Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner

Because he can afford to make himself poorer, when poorer people do not. (Not that I particularly enjoy this form of argument).

The poorer people obviously don’t mind being a big poorer if they think there are other benefits to reducing immigration, it’s surely their choice?

Although they probably don’t believe the GDP way of working out the effects of mass immigration on low wages

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never doubted that you are on an entirely different planet to the rest of us, so nothing has changed

Eabhal said:

Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.

Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.

Your australian friends certainly need to reduce their carbon footprint at a whopping 15 tons per person per year.

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!

Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.

It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.

lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"

Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.

As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.

"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".

Amiright.

Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?

Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?

Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.

A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.

Not to worry then. The big picture is plain enough. No probs seeing that. It's you seeking to delegitimize somebody's left wing political views because they're not poor enough for you.

The argument from @TOPPING seems to be, if I understand it correctly, "how dare you argue for something that would only work in a systemic manner (wealth redistribution) when you don't do that individually (citation needed) within the system you are criticising as not working".

Again, giving all my money to the next homeless person I see wouldn't solve the problem - the issue is that the state is currently the only mechanism by which to take some from those who have the most to give to those who have none.

If, on the other hand, you're saying you would agree it is my moral imperative to start kidnapping the richest people alive and threatening to unalive them (not sure if I can say the K word here, so will use the language of the youth) unless they gave away all their worldly possessions - all I can say is stand and deliver.

Leon said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never doubted that you are on an entirely different planet to the rest of us, so nothing has changed

This is the energy I prefer from you - when you're calling me intelligent and stroking my ego I'm worried I must be being wrong.

Pulpstar said:

Eabhal said:

Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.

Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.

Your australian friends certainly need to reduce their carbon footprint at a whopping 15 tons per person per year.

I did my bit by cycling to work

148grss said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!

Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.

It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.

lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"

Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.

As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.

"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".

Amiright.

Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?

Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?

Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.

A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.

Not to worry then. The big picture is plain enough. No probs seeing that. It's you seeking to delegitimize somebody's left wing political views because they're not poor enough for you.

The argument from @TOPPING seems to be, if I understand it correctly, "how dare you argue for something that would only work in a systemic manner (wealth redistribution) when you don't do that individually (citation needed) within the system you are criticising as not working".

Again, giving all my money to the next homeless person I see wouldn't solve the problem - the issue is that the state is currently the only mechanism by which to take some from those who have the most to give to those who have none.

If, on the other hand, you're saying you would agree it is my moral imperative to start kidnapping the richest people alive and threatening to unalive them (not sure if I can say the K word here, so will use the language of the youth) unless they gave away all their worldly possessions - all I can say is stand and deliver.

Yes it's feeble. But there's a 'trolling' element too. So watch out for that.

Is he still an official labour candidate ? If he has the mark next to his name on the ballot he'll win at a canter, withdrawn support or not.

viewcode said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.

Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...

There’s also a generally high level of interest in booze, cricket, and engineering, so despite the agnosticism we make decent recruiting ground for the clergy.

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

Next.

I agree. Eternally dull, I don't care if they slaughter each other, whatevs

It might be worth caring about what happens in this country to Jews here though -

- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/paul-currie-comedian-antisemitism-jewish-guest-audience-soho-theatre-kb67xrmwm
- https://www.leeds.ac.uk/main-index/news/article/5510/university-statement-antisemitic-attacks-on-hillel-house-and-rabbi-deutsch.

rottenborough said:

Sean_F said:

https://unherd.com/2024/02/andrew-sullivan-what-i-got-wrong-about-trump/

I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).

Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.

It's when you get right to the end, after explaining how bad Trump is:



FS: And would you be one of that large number of Americans? [ie those who would happily see Ukraine partitioned, and China occupy Taiwan].

AS: I’d be pretty close to them, yes. I don’t think there is a desire in the United States, nor has there really been for the last 20 years, for long engagement in conflicts far away. The people whose kids go to fight those wars don’t want their kids to go fight those wars. And a lot of people just simply look at the state of the US-Mexico border and say: why are we spending billions of dollars on the border between the Russian-dominated provinces in Ukraine and the rest of it? Why, when we can’t do it for our own border? That’s an incredibly potent argument.

FS: The world order is certainly going through a seismic shift, one that may involve war or will conflict being evaded and a deal being struck. The argument of those who support Trump would be that he’s not so deeply ideological, he likes a deal and, as you say, he’s not seriously attached to a particular set of principles. And they say: that’s the kind of leader we need right now to smooth things over.

AS: Yes. There are plenty of reasons, policy-wise, why I’d be happier with a Trump administration than a Biden one. There’s immigration, which I think the Democrats have completely screwed up. The numbers of people coming over are extraordinary at this point. And I think if he got a majority in the House and the Senate, he could easily pass immigration reform, and this time, unlike in 2016, he won’t be bamboozled by people like Paul Ryan into thinking that the most important thing is a tax cut for the super-wealthy.

I also think that regarding the wokeness stuff, even though I really find Trump horrid on so many levels, if he’s the only thing that can stop this stuff from being imposed across the country and across the United States Government, then you can see why I might prefer him over Biden, who is giving in to woke at every level. The federal government is involved in systematic DEI: in all of its capacities it now has putting equity at the heart of everything as a policy. He would remove that and there would be support for ending DEI in corporate America and in universities. He’s clearly taken out a position — even if he’s not interested in that stuff, he’ll find someone who is. And that’s a huge thing for the base. It would happen, I think.

kinabalu said:

rottenborough said:

Sean_F said:

https://unherd.com/2024/02/andrew-sullivan-what-i-got-wrong-about-trump/

I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).

Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.

Yes, I linked that one a few days ago. He says he prefers Trump's policies but this is outweighed by his threat to democracy. The BTL bile he gets for his trouble from the relentlessly Trumpite unHerd crowd is striking.

Does Trump have policies, other than “what’s good for Trump”?

Genuine question. Is there a discernible ideology beyond a troubling fascination with the west’s enemies on a “groupee” level?

Pulpstar said:

Leon said:

Also given our age class and educational profiles I am pretty sure there are way more than 3 millionaires, on property prices alone

Anyone on an index linked final salary pension of more than ~ 35k...

I have two index linked, final salary pensions, one currently being claimed, the other will be in four years. Sadly nowhere near that.

Taz said:

John Rentoul

His shambolic U-turn over the Rochdale candidate is Starmer’s biggest blunder yet

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-rochdale-azhar-ali-labour-uturn-b2495230.html

Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.

“ Keir Starmer is guilty of two kinds of flip-flop. The first kind is from positions he adopted in order to win the leadership of a party still in the grip of Corbynism. Those U-turns showed a cynicism that sometimes took the breath away, but the logic of “what it takes” was irresistible.”

I think I agree

biggles said:

viewcode said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.

Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...

There’s also a generally high level of interest in booze, cricket, and engineering, so despite the agnosticism we make decent recruiting ground for the clergy.

We even have some home brewers such is the love of the old falling over water.

I saw someone posting about their homebrew last week, I have been making my own wine and beer for the last 5 years too.

I am sure others do as well.

Taz said:

John Rentoul

His shambolic U-turn over the Rochdale candidate is Starmer’s biggest blunder yet

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-rochdale-azhar-ali-labour-uturn-b2495230.html

Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.

Hmm. That article is timestamped three minutes ago (only just before your post). You are editor of the Indy AICMFP.

It is paywalled but for this part: The time it took the Labour leader to drop his would-be MP for sharing antisemitic conspiracy theories suggests he’ll find the speed and pressure of making calls at No 10 a worrying challenge, writes John Rentoul

That much might be true. We see every week at PMQs that Starmer is leaden-footed. He has excellently scripted, forensic questions that ultimately saw off Boris as Prime Minister, but he cannot think on his feet and react when an unexpected answer is given; he just ploughs on through the script.

Peter_the_Punter said:

algarkirk said:

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Leon said:

SouthamObserver said:

If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.

And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?

Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing

Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult

What then? Whither the voter?

If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.

If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair

So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done

It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.

Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.

But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.

*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?

Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.

I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.

Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.

It must deliver for its supporters.

It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right

Look around the western world:

Trump
Meloni
Le Pen
Orban
Wilders
AfD
True Finns
Sweden Democrats
Denmark in toto
For Poland see Tusk's remarks below
Etc etc etc

Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain

I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.

If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!

Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.

BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:

George Galloway MP
Nigel Farage MP
Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s)
Dave Spart MP
Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).

Can't wait.

Personally I'd be fine with that, because they all represent coherent political viewpoints with a decent level of support. These should be heard, and represented in Parliament, notwithstanding that I don't agree with them.

It is of course vanishingly unlikely that they would be part of any Government, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least have a chance to forward their views and those of their supporters.

The problem is that the more of these types you get, the more likely it is that they *will* become part of a government, either by choice or necessity of numbers.

As an aside, Galloway and Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) is a repetition.

Leon said:

viewcode said:

148grss said:

Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.

Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.

Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...

We almost certainly skew autistic. As you might expect on a site about geeky politics mixed with statistics

We are also less creative than an average set of middle-upper middles? It’s me. Anyone else? @Mysticrose was a writer. But she’s gone

Marquee mark maybe? But I’m not sure

Marquee Mark's missus, if she counts. Roger, of course. Morris Dancer?

Also very few elected politicos: I count El Capitano (LD), Andy Cooke (LD), Nick Palmer (Lab) and yours truly (Con) as Councillors, and no declared MPs.