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The Return of the King at 100/1? – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,496
    ydoethur said:

    So does anyone have any thoughts about the special election to replace George Santos in New York ?

    It's a swing seat. It will be interesting to see who wins. The Republican candidate is an Israeli who is registered as a Democrat. The Democrat candidate is the former Rep.

    If the Democrats retake the seat it would suggest that they are not doing as badly among their core vote as one or two here have suggested.
    There's a market on Betfair exchange, but no decent odds available.
    The weather would tend to favour the Democrat, given their advantage in early voting.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188
    ...

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What an absurd paragraph.

    The class system was the stuff of history books and a "Frost Report" sketch until austerity. If an equalisation means better schools, diet and healthcare for the majority of the nation's children, the eradication AGAIN of Victorian childhood diseases like rickets, scurvy and tooth decay bring it on.

    The plurality of Infosys making hay with burgeoning government contracts whilst schoolchildren are down to one meal a day and school buildings are crumbling is not the look of a fair and equitable society. No wonder the peasants are revolting.

    Team Starmer, by the way, doesn't look like the answer and I doubt it will be anything like as ambitious as the hack suggests.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,571
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    algarkirk said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    This is the times.... how likely are they to give a balancen representation? Source criticism required.
    He's an editor at the lefty New Statesman.

    Stats show Starmer will have the most plebeian cabinet since Theresa May.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1721114343071170769
    The New Statesman feels very middling in recent times - perched in the general area of social liberalism, posh green and social democrat. A decent proportion of it is readable. I suspect that keeping an eye on it as Labour assume power and then spend a year or two dealing with reality will be quite informative.

    It is also much less self consciously pseudo intellectual than it sometimes has been. For that, and much further left, you have to go to the London Review of Books.
    I wouldn't describe the LRB as pseudo-intellectual. Or to put it another way, if the LRB isn't intellectual, what is?
    Good point, lots of views possible. My tentative suggestion: in the humanities intellectualism is characterised by depth, open mindedness, clarification, stimulation, consideration of multiple viewpoints, excitement and brilliant communication.

    For me, the LRB doesn't quite make it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, someone born when that article was written will be able to vote next year.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    A seventy-five year old conflict that blew its best plot lines in the first few decades?
    Previously on GAZA!..

    Went downhill when they kept bringing back that clichéd combover Bibi.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Totally agree.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,685
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    This is the times.... how likely are they to give a balancen representation? Source criticism required.
    He's an editor at the lefty New Statesman.

    Stats show Starmer will have the most plebeian cabinet since Theresa May.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1721114343071170769
    The New Statesman feels very middling in recent times - perched in the general area of social liberalism, posh green and social democrat. A decent proportion of it is readable. I suspect that keeping an eye on it as Labour assume power and then spend a year or two dealing with reality will be quite informative.

    It is also much less self consciously pseudo intellectual than it sometimes has been. For that, and much further left, you have to go to the London Review of Books.
    I wouldn't describe the LRB as pseudo-intellectual. Or to put it another way, if the LRB isn't intellectual, what is?
    Good point, lots of views possible. My tentative suggestion: in the humanities intellectualism is characterised by depth, open mindedness, clarification, stimulation, consideration of multiple viewpoints, excitement and brilliant communication.

    For me, the LRB doesn't quite make it.
    You have high standards!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    I agree. Eternally dull, I don't care if they slaughter each other, whatevs
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    No need to get all Mardi.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Totally agree.
    It's pretty crude and simple - either you stop him in Ukraine, or he'll be looking at the next bit - which is the Baltics. Russian Irredentism regards everything that used to be in the Russian Empire as part of Russia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Something different to talk about

    Modern pop music is rubbish: and it is scientifically proven

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/
  • ydoethur said:

    So does anyone have any thoughts about the special election to replace George Santos in New York ?

    It's a swing seat. It will be interesting to see who wins. The Republican candidate is an Israeli who is registered as a Democrat. The Democrat candidate is the former Rep.

    If the Democrats retake the seat it would suggest that they are not doing as badly among their core vote as one or two here have suggested.
    While a failure to win is likely to cause panic.
  • Scott_xP said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.

    Why are you afraid?

    "Up the workers" will be a welcome change from the "right up the workers" mentality of the posh Brexiteer twats in government the last few years.
    Except the working class will still be subsidising the wealthy pensioner class.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    edited February 13
    Leon said:

    Something different to talk about

    Modern pop music is rubbish: and it is scientifically proven

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

    Absolute poppycock. Won't of course read the article but the premise is complete rubbish. Modern pop music is fantastic starting with Tay Tay and upwards, downwards and across from her.

    Now if you are trying to compare She's Lost Control with Shake it Off I think we possibly have a category error.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579

    Scott_xP said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.

    Why are you afraid?

    "Up the workers" will be a welcome change from the "right up the workers" mentality of the posh Brexiteer twats in government the last few years.
    Except the working class will still be subsidising the wealthy pensioner class.
    And the violently rich people on benefit, who collect their UC and roll around in the piles of money? They are on the Triple Lock as well.

    £203.85 a week isn't wealth.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,976
    .

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    We've had plenty of class war from the other side too, I don't see why we should be the ones to go all kumbaya.
    An eye for an eye only makes the whole world go blind.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    MikeL said:

    It may seem a laughable idea but the reality is that it is almost certain that the Conservatives would do better at the next GE with Cameron as leader than they would with anybody else.

    How you arrange the mechanics I don't know. It would have to be along the lines of Sunak remaining PM until the GE, Cameron giving up his Peerage, Cameron fighting a safe seat at the GE on the basis he would then become leader post GE.

    I guess technically he could become leader as soon as Parliament is dissolved because at that point there are no Conervative MPs and someone has to be leader if Rishi resigned as leader.

    But I think it would be best for Rishi to remain PM until GE day to avoid charges of an unelected PM. But the Conservative Party would campaign on the basis that Cameron would take over the day after the GE.

    I'm afraid this is patent nonsense. How exactly does Cameron rebuild Boris's coalition?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Something different to talk about

    Modern pop music is rubbish: and it is scientifically proven

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

    Absolute poppycock. Won't of course read the article but the premise is complete rubbish. Modern pop music is fantastic starting with Tay Tay and upwards, downwards and across from her.

    Now if you are trying to compare She's Lost Control with Shake it Off I think we possibly have a category error.
    You tell em, daddio
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    148grss said:

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
    At least the crucifixions run on time.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,976

    algarkirk said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    This is the times.... how likely are they to give a balancen representation? Source criticism required.
    He's an editor at the lefty New Statesman.

    Stats show Starmer will have the most plebeian cabinet since Theresa May.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1721114343071170769
    The New Statesman feels very middling in recent times - perched in the general area of social liberalism, posh green and social democrat. A decent proportion of it is readable. I suspect that keeping an eye on it as Labour assume power and then spend a year or two dealing with reality will be quite informative.

    It is also much less self consciously pseudo intellectual than it sometimes has been. For that, and much further left, you have to go to the London Review of Books.
    The New Statesman peaked in 2007 with this article then it has been downhill ever since.

    We cannot be killed

    'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
    Will that article ever come true?

    Starmer would have to outdo GE2024 in GE2028/29.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Just watching BBC News and a report on ambulance services in Gaza. I’m not sure how much more anti-Israeli, or at least Gazan-sympathetic anything could be.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Totally agree.
    It's pretty crude and simple - either you stop him in Ukraine, or he'll be looking at the next bit - which is the Baltics. Russian Irredentism regards everything that used to be in the Russian Empire as part of Russia.
    Yes. But try getting an appointment with an NHS irridentist.

    (Not my joke. Made by a PBer a couple of days ago. Redolent of the "as rich as creases" glory days of PB.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Something different to talk about

    Modern pop music is rubbish: and it is scientifically proven

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-official-modern-music-is-bad/

    Absolute poppycock. Won't of course read the article but the premise is complete rubbish. Modern pop music is fantastic starting with Tay Tay and upwards, downwards and across from her.

    Now if you are trying to compare She's Lost Control with Shake it Off I think we possibly have a category error.
    You tell em, daddio
    I mean in the Spectator.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    edited February 13

    Just watching BBC News and a report on ambulance services in Gaza. I’m not sure how much more anti-Israeli, or at least Gazan-sympathetic anything could be.

    I heard the report on Today this morning. Talking about "the war".

    Interesting to know that Gazans appreciate that it is indeed a war.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    They won’t get far past Dover as the British unveil their secret weapon, Operation Stack, leaving the Russian Army kicking their heals on the M20.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    They’ve got to get through France first, where the farmers might have their tractors and hay bails out. And the toll motorways are expensive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718
    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    In rural France the farmers’ latest wheeze has been turning all the village road signs upside down as some sort of protest.

    Though that might make them look more like Cyrillic.

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Even if they did make Lord Cameron (lol) PM - the Tories cannot get out of the material reality we live in and, if anything, it would highlight the fact they're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No new leader will save them - if they want to do better in an election they need to change their policies towards wealth redistribution so poorer people feel less precarious. But, because they're Tories, they won't do that. So they're going to lose badly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,496

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    The Yemeni government has a similar approach, of course.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Yemen#LGBT_rights
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    They got rid of the Cones Hotline. So the Russian armour will be stuck in a contra-flow at some abandoned traffic works. For years.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    edited February 13
    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579
    stjohn said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Totally agree.
    It's pretty crude and simple - either you stop him in Ukraine, or he'll be looking at the next bit - which is the Baltics. Russian Irredentism regards everything that used to be in the Russian Empire as part of Russia.
    Yes. But try getting an appointment with an NHS irridentist.

    (Not my joke. Made by a PBer a couple of days ago. Redolent of the "as rich as creases" glory days of PB.)
    Irredentist you say? Where do you stand on the location of the Ukraine/Republic of China border?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited February 13

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    They got rid of the Cones Hotline. So the Russian armour will be stuck in a contra-flow at some abandoned traffic works. For years.
    Junction 10 of the M6.

    Meant to be finished two years ago.

    Final deadline was last August.

    Still a coned-off shambles.

    And I've not seen anyone actually working there for a good six months.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    The sad thing for them is that before the war they were free to make tank and naval incursions into France on a regular basis, driving their SUVs up the champs Élysées and parking their super yachts in Cannes harbour.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
    It'll certainly drop a scone on it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
    Still, seven million, eh?

    You are so exercised by injustice and suffering, yet you just forgot to mention this. Not even once. Not a peep. Zilchoroonie. Nada. Nillissimo. Nuffink. Weird, huh

    But then, there's no Jews doing it, so I guess it's less important?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
    Yes. Although not very much. About £200k worth.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    The sad thing for them is that before the war they were free to make tank and naval incursions into France on a regular basis, driving their SUVs up the champs Élysées and parking their super yachts in Cannes harbour.
    Quite. Purveyors of handbags are no doubt still grieving, as well as praying to all that's holy that we don't get into a spat with China.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    That's written by a Times journalist not a Shadow Cabinet minister.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579
    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    The sad thing for them is that before the war they were free to make tank and naval incursions into France on a regular basis, driving their SUVs up the champs Élysées and parking their super yachts in Cannes harbour.
    A certain poster here was horrified by the effect of the Ukraine War - apparently the mood in his favourite hotel was going to be miserable. Because so many people had lost their yachts to sanctions.

    #OligarchsFeelingsMatter
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188
    ...

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    It'll be fine! We have HMS Prince of Wales on standby.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
    It'll certainly drop a scone on it.
    Replace it with a batter model.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ...

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    It'll be fine! We have HMS Prince of Wales on standby.
    Are we talking about the navy or the monarchy?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
    It'll certainly drop a scone on it.
    Replace it with a batter model.
    Flipping hell...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188
    ydoethur said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    They got rid of the Cones Hotline. So the Russian armour will be stuck in a contra-flow at some abandoned traffic works. For years.
    Junction 10 of the M6.

    Meant to be finished two years ago.

    Final deadline was last August.

    Still a coned-off shambles.

    And I've not seen anyone actually working there for a good six months.
    So the taking of Wednesbury might be not be as simple as Putin first thought.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
    It'll certainly drop a scone on it.
    Replace it with a batter model.
    Flipping hell...
    Into the frying pan...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    ...

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    It'll be fine! We have HMS Prince of Wales on standby.
    Don't you mean, we have the PoW and QE2 both on standby?
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,872
    MikeL said:

    It may seem a laughable idea but the reality is that it is almost certain that the Conservatives would do better at the next GE with Cameron as leader than they would with anybody else.

    How you arrange the mechanics I don't know. It would have to be along the lines of Sunak remaining PM until the GE, Cameron giving up his Peerage, Cameron fighting a safe seat at the GE on the basis he would then become leader post GE.

    I guess technically he could become leader as soon as Parliament is dissolved because at that point there are no Conervative MPs and someone has to be leader if Rishi resigned as leader.

    But I think it would be best for Rishi to remain PM until GE day to avoid charges of an unelected PM. But the Conservative Party would campaign on the basis that Cameron would take over the day after the GE.

    It's a good idea, and I prefer Cameron to Sunak, but what's in it for Sunak?
    What backroom deal would he need to be offered to accept that?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
    Still, seven million, eh?

    You are so exercised by injustice and suffering, yet you just forgot to mention this. Not even once. Not a peep. Zilchoroonie. Nada. Nillissimo. Nuffink. Weird, huh

    But then, there's no Jews doing it, so I guess it's less important?
    One dreads to think of your incontinence on the subject if you didn't find it eternally dull.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Yes. This is a catastrophe in itself, and a walking disaster for how the west, the Islamic world, African leaders, and its governments and media act. Sudan is a gigantic human rights disaster, ethnic cleansing disaster, refugee disaster and so on. Any reasonably objective news media (BBC) would give it billing alongside Ukraine and Gaza. The fact they don't illustrates the real bias of most of the world towards certain places and people.

    Al Jazeera covers it more than most, and the best source I know of is based in France:
    https://sudantribune.com/
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,848

    MikeL said:

    It may seem a laughable idea but the reality is that it is almost certain that the Conservatives would do better at the next GE with Cameron as leader than they would with anybody else.

    How you arrange the mechanics I don't know. It would have to be along the lines of Sunak remaining PM until the GE, Cameron giving up his Peerage, Cameron fighting a safe seat at the GE on the basis he would then become leader post GE.

    I guess technically he could become leader as soon as Parliament is dissolved because at that point there are no Conervative MPs and someone has to be leader if Rishi resigned as leader.

    But I think it would be best for Rishi to remain PM until GE day to avoid charges of an unelected PM. But the Conservative Party would campaign on the basis that Cameron would take over the day after the GE.

    It's a good idea, and I prefer Cameron to Sunak, but what's in it for Sunak?
    What backroom deal would he need to be offered to accept that?
    Cameron can't give up his peerage.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
  • Lord Dave = Unelected Has-Been!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Yes. This is a catastrophe in itself, and a walking disaster for how the west, the Islamic world, African leaders, and its governments and media act. Sudan is a gigantic human rights disaster, ethnic cleansing disaster, refugee disaster and so on. Any reasonably objective news media (BBC) would give it billing alongside Ukraine and Gaza. The fact they don't illustrates the real bias of most of the world towards certain places and people.

    Al Jazeera covers it more than most, and the best source I know of is based in France:
    https://sudantribune.com/
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Yes. This is a catastrophe in itself, and a walking disaster for how the west, the Islamic world, African leaders, and its governments and media act. Sudan is a gigantic human rights disaster, ethnic cleansing disaster, refugee disaster and so on. Any reasonably objective news media (BBC) would give it billing alongside Ukraine and Gaza. The fact they don't illustrates the real bias of most of the world towards certain places and people.

    Al Jazeera covers it more than most, and the best source I know of is based in France:
    https://sudantribune.com/
    For me the discrepancy is, pretty much, proof positive that a large chunk of the "anguish" invoked by Gaza is, in fact, badly masked anti-Semitism

    It's a veiled way to vent Jew-hatred. That's it
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    Sounds great. Can you please define "rich". Does it include those who own their homes mortgage-free?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Carnyx said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    That's written by a Times journalist not a Shadow Cabinet minister.
    Removing tax exemptions for the better off, building houses because middle class younger people can't currently afford them and requiring large businesses to obey the law is hardly SWP/Dave Spart is it? Sounds like centrist social democrats in dull action.
  • ...

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    It'll be fine! We have HMS Prince of Wales on standby.
    Namesake sunk by the Japs in 1941 :lol:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    148grss said:

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
    No. To make it quite clear: you are so one-eyed about Palestine that you support *any* action by *any* actor that might harm Israel or us. Including by other regimes that kill and maim in ways you should condemn.

    The lives of the sailors on the ships don't matter. The lives of gay Yemenis don't matter; just as long as Israel is defeated.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    Sounds great. Can you please define "rich". Does it include those who own their homes mortgage-free?
    That’s different, his inherited house is exempt as it’s only nicer houses in nicer areas owned by people who are a bit richer that must be taken. Especially if they are Tories.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Yes. This is a catastrophe in itself, and a walking disaster for how the west, the Islamic world, African leaders, and its governments and media act. Sudan is a gigantic human rights disaster, ethnic cleansing disaster, refugee disaster and so on. Any reasonably objective news media (BBC) would give it billing alongside Ukraine and Gaza. The fact they don't illustrates the real bias of most of the world towards certain places and people.

    Al Jazeera covers it more than most, and the best source I know of is based in France:
    https://sudantribune.com/
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Yes. This is a catastrophe in itself, and a walking disaster for how the west, the Islamic world, African leaders, and its governments and media act. Sudan is a gigantic human rights disaster, ethnic cleansing disaster, refugee disaster and so on. Any reasonably objective news media (BBC) would give it billing alongside Ukraine and Gaza. The fact they don't illustrates the real bias of most of the world towards certain places and people.

    Al Jazeera covers it more than most, and the best source I know of is based in France:
    https://sudantribune.com/
    For me the discrepancy is, pretty much, proof positive that a large chunk of the "anguish" invoked by Gaza is, in fact, badly masked anti-Semitism

    It's a veiled way to vent Jew-hatred. That's it
    Careful theuniondiv will make some arch comment bemoaning the killing of Hamas operatives posing as flower sellers in downtown Rafah.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,577
    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    It worked out quite poorly in the Soviet Union. And Cambodia. And North Korea. And China. And indeed absolutely everywhere it's been tried without exception.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    boulay said:

    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    Sounds great. Can you please define "rich". Does it include those who own their homes mortgage-free?
    That’s different, his inherited house is exempt as it’s only nicer houses in nicer areas owned by people who are a bit richer that must be taken. Especially if they are Tories.
    Thank you for clearing that up. It's such a minefield it's good to have some definitive guidance.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
    No. To make it quite clear: you are so one-eyed about Palestine that you support *any* action by *any* actor that might harm Israel or us. Including by other regimes that kill and maim in ways you should condemn.

    The lives of the sailors on the ships don't matter. The lives of gay Yemenis don't matter; just as long as Israel is defeated.
    Sure, believe what you want - I'll hold on my backs those lives, I'll leave with you the lives of almost 30,000 Palestinians, almost half of whom are children.

    Bad people do good things sometimes, even for bad reasons. If this government recognised a state of Palestine, for example, I would be happy and would praise them. That would not be me endorsing every policy they have.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
    No. To make it quite clear: you are so one-eyed about Palestine that you support *any* action by *any* actor that might harm Israel or us. Including by other regimes that kill and maim in ways you should condemn.

    The lives of the sailors on the ships don't matter. The lives of gay Yemenis don't matter; just as long as Israel is defeated.
    Sure, believe what you want - I'll hold on my backs those lives, I'll leave with you the lives of almost 30,000 Palestinians, almost half of whom are children.

    Bad people do good things sometimes, even for bad reasons. If this government recognised a state of Palestine, for example, I would be happy and would praise them. That would not be me endorsing every policy they have.
    That last line shows your issue: what the Houthis are doing with the shipping is *not* good for anyone. And you cheer them on.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
    This must deserve a place on the rostrum in the pantheon of 'Weakest arguments combined with special pleading and conscience free verbiage 2024' contest.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    Remember that we have someone on here who supports the Houthis:

    "A Houthi-run court in Yemen has sentenced 13 people to executed, on charges relating to homosexuality, a judicial court confirmed this week."

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/08/houthi-rebels-death-penalty-homosexuality-charges/

    "Yemen: Huthi authorities sentence seven to stoning and two to crucifixion for homosexual 'crimes'
    Separately, 13 students sentenced to death for ‘spreading homosexuality’"

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/yemen-huthi-authorities-sentence-seven-stoning-and-two-crucifixion-homosexual-crimes

    Who supports one action that the Houthis took. Once again, there is a difference between saying "this one thing they did was good, actually" and "everything they do is good".
    No. To make it quite clear: you are so one-eyed about Palestine that you support *any* action by *any* actor that might harm Israel or us. Including by other regimes that kill and maim in ways you should condemn.

    The lives of the sailors on the ships don't matter. The lives of gay Yemenis don't matter; just as long as Israel is defeated.
    Sure, believe what you want - I'll hold on my backs those lives, I'll leave with you the lives of almost 30,000 Palestinians, almost half of whom are children.

    Bad people do good things sometimes, even for bad reasons. If this government recognised a state of Palestine, for example, I would be happy and would praise them. That would not be me endorsing every policy they have.
    Are we absolutely sure about that half of whom are children line? The UN thinks not. I mean it will be a huge number which is hugely to be regretted but there was also the odd Hamas fighter in there also.
  • "Lord" Cameron. 🤣
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,848

    Lord Dave = Unelected Has-Been!

    That's me!!!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. (1) It will squeeze private schools and (2) spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. (3) It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. (4) It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    (1) Possibly, although we will see what happens when/if the fact they are pursuing a foolish policy which will have the opposite effect of the one intended hits home.

    (2) Is already happening. Can literally see it from my windows.

    (3) That would be tragic. How would we ever cope with a government actually holding the feet of a gang of criminals making 'mistakes' like that to the fire and actually forcing them to accept their obligations? I mean, how bloody dare they? It's as bad as the courts going after Donald Trump just because he breaks all those laws all the time.

    (4) Well, it may. Just as Mogg can't hide his malicious pleasure as he does stupid stuff. Or Dorries as she lies about her actions. It's unfortunately what politicians do

    And working class? Well, why not? Not as if the posh people from so-called elite schools and unis dominating our current system of government have been any good.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Worth a nibble.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,750
    Time for @148grss to post his funny cartoon pointing out the absurdity of saying just because I think people should give their inherited houses away doesn't mean I should give my inherited house away.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    Sounds great. Can you please define "rich". Does it include those who own their homes mortgage-free?
    I mean, the richest 10% of households in the UK hold 43% of the wealth, whereas the bottom 50% have 9% of the wealth. So I would argue whatever makes that figure more proportional would be great. Reminder - wealth is not the same thing as income. Now, if we did this policy starting at the top and working our way down (starting with the wealthiest person we could find and hiving off wealth for the public good until they're left with a still ridiculous amount of money) and we still start hitting people who have very few liquid assets and only have their house as wealth, we can talk about where the line should be and how to manage that. But, to begin with, let's have a crack at the wealth redistribution first.
  • David 'two dead brains' Willetts contemplates ways of losing the Conservatives support among GenX:

    But at the moment you can access your pension pot with no penalty above the age of 54. That is a lot younger than the state pension/retirement age in France or Germany and means older workers with generous defined benefit pensions can leave the workforce early. The Government is already raising this age to 57 but it will still be ten years younger than the state pension age. Why not move to a model where it is state pension age minus five years instead?

    We could also be bolder on the state pension age. We have got ourselves trapped in the assumption that the only thing that matters here is life expectancy and so pension age should be set by a formula of RIP minus X years. But many other factors can be taken into account in setting the pension age such as the costs of the pension and the budgetary pressures presented by the aging of the big cohort of Baby Boomers. So increasing the pension age is a legitimate tool of policy in these circumstances.


    https://conservativehome.com/2024/02/13/david-willetts-where-have-all-the-workers-gone/

    I'm not sure millions of people would be happy to work longer than they want just to increase GDP and reduce the pay of those younger than themselves.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    algarkirk said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.

    Next.

    Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns*
    One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!

    Most moral monarchist in the world!
    You want to talk numbers?


    "More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink

    More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231222-more-than-7-million-displaced-by-sudan-fighting-as-safe-zones-shrink

    SEVEN MILLION

    And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?

    i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
    Does my government actively support and sell weapons to the aggressors in Sudan? Is my government, in my name, running cover for the atrocities happening in Sudan? Is my government actively defending a genocide in Sudan? No. So why would we need to march - there is no policy change we need to demand. I have talked about it, although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family (as I talk about many things outside of this forum) - but it is something where the power of the state is already doing what it will in roughly the right direction (even if like me you are inherently distrustful of our state's motives for doing so).

    Why was South Africa such a target for outrage by many people - it certainly wasn't the most oppressive government at the time. It was because the obvious injustice and horrors that were being committed were being committed with the support of people we are supposed to be able to have influence over because they represent us. The same goes for Israel.
    This must deserve a place on the rostrum in the pantheon of 'Weakest arguments combined with special pleading and conscience free verbiage 2024' contest.
    I particularly like

    "I have talked about it [Sudan], although not here, with other peace activists, friends and family"

    Yes, of course you have, you've banged on about Sudan endlessly with "other peace activists". And you've probably bored your poor family to death with your agonised tears over the displaced of Darfur. Just, er, not on here

    Meanwhile the displaced number has actually grown. TEN million

    https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240212-more-than-10-million-displaced-by-sudan-conflict-says-unicef
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,295
    edited February 13

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Time for @148grss to post his funny cartoon pointing out the absurdity of saying just because I think people should give their inherited houses away doesn't mean I should give my inherited house away.

    I will happily pay taxes when I inherit things (the mortgageless house I mentioned previously is still in my dad's name, I just happen to be the one who lives in it). I would also be more than happy, if we lived in a system where it happened to everyone, to abolish the idea of inheritance. These things only make sense when done at a societal level, the act devoid of that context isn't inherently moral - it is the understanding that wealth gets redistributed to those who most need it from those who least need it that is important.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188
    edited February 13

    ...

    TOPPING said:

    Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    The latest remarks that have come to light are that he said Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

    Obviously Labour thinks that even saying that is unacceptable!
    I think we just have to accept that all criticism of Israel is a thought crime in Britain. If the Israelis want to kill another 12000 Gazan children who are we to question them?
    I think we just have to be very careful what we say on the subject, and to whom, because a lot of people are very touchy about it and desperate to portray their side as victims and the other side as monsters.
    Both sides have victims, and both sides have monsters. That's why it's so difficult to speak about without upsetting people.

    In comparison, the Ukraine war is exceedingly simple morally: Russia is in the wrong, and Ukraine is in the right.
    It's more than that with Ukraine, JJ.

    We have a dog in the fight. If Ukraine goes, where next? We stop Putin now, we save ourselves a lot of problems later. That is all very simple.

    Indeed. I doubt Putin will stop at Calais because of all the hassle to complete post-Brexit paperwork.
    IIRC T-55s have issues at certain speeds. Something to do with the way the gearbox is set up. So, if he tries to invade the UK with his old rust pile, the 20mph zones may prove a problem.
    As the Russian tanks grind to a halt at Monmouth because of the 20 mph limits at the Monnow Bridge that's a relief for me here in Wales, but you are still all f***** in England.
    We'll remove all the road signs. That will stop them in their tracks.
    As many have pointed out, given the difficulty they seem to have had taking Kiev, it seems vanishingly unlikely that Russia will be driving tanks up the Champs Elysee any time soon. And if they were, it's debatable whether it would be our job to do some kind of British Expeditionary Force of the 21st century to stop them.

    We need a strong navy, with masses of drones, firstly to protect our land, secondly to try to keep trading routes open, thirdly to help supply our allies and blockade naughty people. That's all we need to do, and it's a lot more than most do.
    It'll be fine! We have HMS Prince of Wales on standby.
    Namesake sunk by the Japs in 1941 :lol:
    At least if it remains tied up at Rosyth it will avoid that fate.

    After all you wouldn't take your vintage Ferrari out in the rain.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,579
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm just surprised that TSE hasn't noticed Shrove Tuesday has creped up on us.

    My other half regularly tells me I am a useless tosser so I try and ignore Shrove Tuesday.
    I don't think she was panning you.
    One of your crêpier puns.
    It's hardly a lemon. Do you want jam on it or something?
    Wait till the PB Scotch pancake experts get started.
    That maple the conversation in another way.
    It'll certainly drop a scone on it.
    Replace it with a batter model.
    Flipping hell...
    Into the frying pan...
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    It worked out quite poorly in the Soviet Union. And Cambodia. And North Korea. And China. And indeed absolutely everywhere it's been tried without exception.
    But those weren't Real Communism. If we do it right, *this time*....
  • Good morning from Aberdeen airport. Could I please offer my congratulations to @NickPalmer ? His attempted smear of the Liberal Democrat’s over Cyril Smith in response to his own candidate being thrown out in disgrace was quality entertainment.

    It’s pretty clear in this by election. We have a choice of disgraced former Labour candidates - Ali, Galloway, Danczuk. We have a disgraced party - the Tories. Or we have the LibDems.

    We know that people want to Get The Tories Out. Happily in Rochdale they don’t have a chance. Plenty of people also seem to want to vote for foaming dog fever. If you want to stop both, vote LibDem.

    On this topic; ages ago I argued that Labour were going to get such a stonking majority, that they would be inundated with new, untested MPs. And therefore there might be more examples of (ahem) 'poor' MPs, such as the ex-member for Sheffield Hallam (and I don't mean Clegg...).

    It seems this is coming true much earlier than I expected. There's something rotten in the way Labour chooses candidates. The same might be true for the other parties, as well.
    I’ve been a candidate. I’ve interviewed candidates. I’ve discussed candidates with regional office staff. I cannot understand how they managed to miss this.

    Worst thing is that it would appear that at least some local party members had heard the comments - and voted for Ali anyway. Which means the CLP needs suspending. This wasn’t an HQ parachute candidate, the CLP actively chose him.
    What have they actually missed though. The only thing the mail on Sunday came up with are remarks the Israeli government allowed the Hamas attack so they could have the war they wanted - not the most blisteringly anti semitic of statements, unless you disagree?
    What is vaguely interesting is the reaction from the Jewish press was quite restrained. It was the Mail on Sunday that made the running on this.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,182

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
    Very disappointed that Dave didn't take the traditional earldom, as the previous Earl Cameron is no longer with us.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Cameron
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
    Peerages have been dreadfully devalued since some dumbass or other conferred one on Lady Money.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    148grss said:

    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    This is why the Starmer government will be a disaster and makes me afraid.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/class-war-is-back-in-fashion-for-labour-gnzgk79hl

    I did warn you about this last year.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/11/06/class-warfare/

    Euch, working class people with political power, how awful.
    The final paragraph is instructive, though, in that it seems to be gleefully anticipating a bit of class war.

    That's not healthy. If it does this then it might entrench division. I can't see anything that would promote a more rapid recovery of the Tories in their base than this. And that's almost regardless of who they select as LoTO:


    "The first working-class government in decades will speak that language. It will also be chippy. It will squeeze private schools and spray concrete newbuild homes all over the shires. It will go after companies who make the same mistakes as P&O. It may struggle to hide the pleasure it takes in doing so."
    What if class war, against the rich, is good actually? Like - taking their stuff, because they have an over abundance of it, and giving said stuff to people who don't have stuff, and actively need more stuff to live and such - is good. That is a good thing to do. Especially since many of the people who have lots of stuff - have it for no good reason. Like they inherited it, or managed to hide it in a tax haven, or they got lucky and invested in something at the right time and place.

    Dealing with the average persons material reality - that life is shit and getting shitter - and making life less shit might be popular.
    Sounds great. Can you please define "rich". Does it include those who own their homes mortgage-free?
    I mean, the richest 10% of households in the UK hold 43% of the wealth, whereas the bottom 50% have 9% of the wealth. So I would argue whatever makes that figure more proportional would be great. Reminder - wealth is not the same thing as income. Now, if we did this policy starting at the top and working our way down (starting with the wealthiest person we could find and hiving off wealth for the public good until they're left with a still ridiculous amount of money) and we still start hitting people who have very few liquid assets and only have their house as wealth, we can talk about where the line should be and how to manage that. But, to begin with, let's have a crack at the wealth redistribution first.
    Brilliant. So confiscate their shareholdings, as a lot of the top 10% wealth is in shares of public and private companies. Nothing can go wrong except those shares crashing, companies folding, pensions being gutted and nobody wanting to set up a company in the UK.

    Then we take their land holdings. Again not a problem as nobody just below that line will think, “hang on they might come for us next so let’s sell”, leaving land prices crashing and huge swathes empty that people cannot build houses on because the housebuilding companies have collapsed due to the asset confiscations, and there are no farmers because they can’t see the point of working all hours for a pittance because their land might just get taken.

    But at least we confiscate the expensive houses and we can give them to people who can’t actually afford to live in them because the upkeep is huge and all the tradesmen have gone bust because there aren’t any wealthy people to pay them to upkeep the really expensive houses. And we can’t sell them to foreigners and use the tax receipts to incpvest in the country because foreigners saw the asset seizures and won’t touch the UK with a barge pole.

    But as long as they don’t get down to the level of mortgage free university tutors it’s all heart warming and good for the soul as well as the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
    Peerages have been dreadfully devalued since some dumbass or other conferred one on Lady Money.
    We've also got a couple of twenty somethings in Owen to some dodgy dealings.

    (To be fair, I don't know of any personally dodgy dealings involving Carmen Smith.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
    Very disappointed that Dave didn't take the traditional earldom, as the previous Earl Cameron is no longer with us.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Cameron
    No new earldoms since 1984. And that was one that had previously been offered in 1963 so was considered an outlier.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,635

    "Lord" Cameron. 🤣

    His Excellency The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton!

    Show all due deference you pleb.
    Is the right honorable dead Pig Shagger acceptable?
  • If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
This discussion has been closed.