If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
I see your point, but some governments are low tax and low immigration - just not in the west
Saudi Arabia Thailand Hungary Brunei....
40% of the Saudi population is (or are) foreign nationals.
Who are explicitly, and by design, unable to become Saudi citizens. Or access nearly any of the largesse the Saudi government bestows upon its actual citizens.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
I see your point, but some governments are low tax and low immigration - just not in the west
Saudi Arabia Thailand Hungary Brunei....
40% of the Saudi population is (or are) foreign nationals.
But they aren't Saudi citizens, are they? There is no easy path to Saudi citizenship
However I am then quibbling over the definition of migrant, probably wrongly. 40% is high!
I am happy to withdraw Saudi
@SouthamObserver is correct, it is actually quite hard to find wealthy low tax/low migrant countries; however the UK still has the worst of all all worlds, relatively high tax and outrageously high immigration
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
I see your point, but some governments are low tax and low immigration - just not in the west
Saudi Arabia Thailand Hungary Brunei....
40% of the Saudi population is (or are) foreign nationals.
Who are almost all there on temporary work visas, and will never be Saudis nor entitled to benefits.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.
During El Niño events there’s always a few of these multi-million dollar real estate landslides, then when it’s La Niña they’re back to forest fires.
I quite like that the X comment says these properties are worth $12.8m and $13m respectively. I'd argue they are worth virtually nothing. No one would buy them. The owners just have to hope they had insurance cover that would pay them what they would be worth if they were located 1 mile further inland. Because those properties are going into the sea by the end of this decade.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.
It's still immigration, though.
Hinting at sending the "foreigners" home when they are no longer needed will at least keep the Daily Mail happy.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs instead.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
There's economically right and there's socially right. They are basically incompatible. Good luck having a low tax economy with low levels of immigration, for example.
Immigration can be managed in different ways. You don't have to start from the assumption that people who come to work should have a pathway to citizenship.
Gastarbeiter?
One advantage of that approach is that you can more easily reduce the numbers if there is too much pressure on housing, or wages, or public services.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs instead.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.
And the tribalism rears it's head again.
Don't be ridiculous. Read Leon's absurd hyperbolic post suggesting that Truss is considered by the left to be "Hitler".
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
We could have the bewildering phenomenon of Starmer winning a landslide but the political centre of gravity shifting right rather than left.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
What possessions? My clothes? My books? My phone or laptop? Outside of that I do not really own much - I buy toiletries; I own a toothbrush and a razor. Maybe I own the bathroom in the house I live in because I paid to refurbish it because my dad refused, but outside of that? My furniture is all second hand or has been in the house since I was a literal child. I don't own a car - I use public transport. Half the stuff I use regularly to dull my mind, such as music or the odd PC game, aren't actually mine - they're rented to me. I own some cutlery, a few kitchen knives. I did buy my own fridge freezer and washer dryer (although I'm still using a 30 year old oven because I can't afford a new one any time soon).
How much do I have to not own before I'm allowed to suggest society may be a bit better if instead of allowing people to own slum empires or super yachts we redistribute some wealth to allow the millions of mal and undernourished people of this country (let alone the world) to eat? Can I only advocate for the homeless if I don't have a roof over my head (because I'm sure you'd take me much more seriously if I was pan handling on the street)? In a country where I'll be invited to "say that to my face" about some rich bastard who lives in a literal palace with literal gold all around him can I only complain about workers wages if I'm paid minimum wage to shine his shoes, or wipe his bottom?
You are doing a lot of protesting. You are living rent free in a house which is your Dad's he having been left it or somehow has it mortgage free after your mum died. I have no doubt that you would rather your mother was still alive and living in the house and I hope the discussion about it all is not too upsetting.
But the point is that you are the direct beneficiary of inherited property whoever owns it, you or your dad. And you want to dispossess people of inherited property.
Is all.
Yeah, and? I don't have the power to dispossess my dad of his inherited property, so what can I do? Do I need to go full Diogenes to hold left wing positions? Should I make sure that each message here is delivered to you via pigeon.
I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with. If I had power to change things, I would change it in a way that may disadvantage me (in that respect) to advantage others less fortunate than me. I don't see what is complicated about this.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs instead.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.
And the tribalism rears it's head again.
Don't be ridiculous. Read Leon's absurd hyperbolic post suggesting that Truss is considered by the left to be "Hitler".
"Truss's speech is word for word what Hitler was saying before rising to power"
The British Fascist Movement 2024 (yes, that's what they are & we need to start calling them that, relentlessly, to preserve the fragile democracy they hate) is not very original or imaginative. Truss's speech is word for word what Hitler was saying before rising to power.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"
Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.
As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.
"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".
Amiright.
Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.
BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:
George Galloway MP Nigel Farage MP Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) Dave Spart MP Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
Yes, it's very odd how the Conservatives have lost touch with the principle of home ownership given they always do better when home ownership goes up...
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs instead.
Because the posher governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak have gone really brilliantly well...
I don't care if poshos or plebs run the country: as long as they run it for everyone, not just their own constituency. This is where the Conservatives have gone very wrong.
I agree, and I fear many in Labour would want to do the same for theirs in
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
Surely the question is whether Britain has been there, done that, in the shape of Boris and Brexit. Of course, Boris himself was not far right but he was a populist leader spouting a populist policy.
No, we've never gone near to an actual hard right government. Or even seriously rightwing government, unless you count "austerity"
That is the great irony and tragedy of the Tories, they talk rightwing and propose rightwing but they actual do pathetic tepid leftwing shit, we have high taxes, high immigration. Wokeness rampant, special trans generals in the Pride Army of Royal Drag Marines, so the stupid Tories get painted as basically fascist but the country does not actually benefit from rightwing policies coz HMG do not enact any. Get rid
If it ever happens, we will notice a genuine hard right government. We will definitely notice
I would say the Liz Truss government was far Right, though it concentrated (if that's the right word) on the Ayn Rand economic libertarianism rather than the jack-boot stuff. Where Liz would have gone after all that was done and dusted is a thought to conjure with.
Really? Far Right?
Do PB-ers not read history?
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the left Liz Truss is now Hitler. It's ludicrous
Hyperbole is par for the course these days. It's far easier to make an argument with and rally the troops with than resort to analysis or nuance.
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
You are criticising the hyperbole of the left in response to the most hyperbolic post of the day.
And the tribalism rears it's head again.
Don't be ridiculous. Read Leon's absurd hyperbolic post suggesting that Truss is considered by the left to be "Hitler".
"Truss's speech is word for word what Hitler was saying before rising to power"
The British Fascist Movement 2024 (yes, that's what they are & we need to start calling them that, relentlessly, to preserve the fragile democracy they hate) is not very original or imaginative. Truss's speech is word for word what Hitler was saying before rising to power.
But that's one ludicrous commentator that you and Leon suggest speaks for centrists like me. That's bollocks, in the same way you and Leon don't speak for the majority of right-centrists.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.
BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:
George Galloway MP Nigel Farage MP Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) Dave Spart MP Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).
Can't wait.
Would make the 2017 to 2019 Parliament seem positively tame and rational...
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
Yes, it's very odd how the Conservatives have lost touch with the principle of home ownership given they always do better when home ownership goes up...
The modern Conservative Party is just not very good at politics.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
There is a larger segment of the population without the asset-ownership that gives them a stake in the status quo. That means they haven't become natural centre-right voters.
But the legacy of the Thatcher reforms is that the union movement is moribund, and social housing tenancies rare, so the natural constituency of centre-left voters is also much diminished.
This creates a more volatile electorate and it really depends on what individual catches the imagination. They are as likely to swing far right as far left, depending on the charisma of individuals.
At the moment I sense that Farage is in some ways a blocker to this on the right - he has his fans, but there's also a relatively low ceiling on his support as he repels many. On the left, Galloway and Corbyn have an even narrower appeal.
We await our populist who will bring colour and rage to British politics if Starmer fails to rise to the challenge.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
OK, I'm going to say it: I find the whole Israel/Gaza/Palestine thing deeply deeply boring and I'm not sure I care.
Next.
Almost 13,000 dead kids - *yawns* One old man with sausage fingers gets bum cancer - hold my beer!
Most moral monarchist in the world!
You want to talk numbers?
"More than 7 million displaced by Sudan fighting as safe zones shrink
More than seven million people have been displaced by fighting in Sudan, the United Nations said on Thursday as more displaced people continued to flee a former safe haven."
And yet not a peep from the likes of you about Sudan. Nothing. Nothing at all. What is it about the Israel-Gaza conflict that so exercises you, whereas stuff in Africa, on an epically greater scale, makes you yawn?
i mean, what could it be? Why isn't Azhar Ali going on about Sudan in Rochdale? Why aren't there marches in London? What a mystery
Will you be marching in London, then?
In this case the only interest in the suffering in Sudan is as a whataboutery tool to smear people who support the Palestinian cause as antisemites.
I think you may be forgetting those of us who want the Sudanese people to live in peace and prosperity, and the Palestinians to be able to do the same. That great too quiet group who just want good, better and best things for all, better leaders and better governance, have had a tough year. A human task is to promote the humanist cause without distinction.
I surely wasn't. My comment doesn't refer to such fine people. It's about the others. You know what I mean, I'm sure.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.
Yes - this is totally sustainable, the peasants would never revolt, of course they can always eat cake if there is no more bread left...
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Russia intends to double the number of its troops stationed along its border with the Baltic states and Finland as part of preparations for a potential military conflict with Nato within the next decade, according to Estonia’s foreign intelligence service.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
So long as median net wealth in the UK is £300,000 +, there will no radical left government.
Yes - this is totally sustainable, the peasants would never revolt, of course they can always eat cake if there is no more bread left...
Sure, but if 50% of the population (and probably well above 50% of the voting population) have net assets in excess of £300K, they aren't going to put that in jeapordy.
On the one hand this is incredibly exciting - life moving into new areas. Imagine if Greenland was actually green! But then, 7m of sea level rise. Ah well.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
What possessions? My clothes? My books? My phone or laptop? Outside of that I do not really own much - I buy toiletries; I own a toothbrush and a razor. Maybe I own the bathroom in the house I live in because I paid to refurbish it because my dad refused, but outside of that? My furniture is all second hand or has been in the house since I was a literal child. I don't own a car - I use public transport. Half the stuff I use regularly to dull my mind, such as music or the odd PC game, aren't actually mine - they're rented to me. I own some cutlery, a few kitchen knives. I did buy my own fridge freezer and washer dryer (although I'm still using a 30 year old oven because I can't afford a new one any time soon).
How much do I have to not own before I'm allowed to suggest society may be a bit better if instead of allowing people to own slum empires or super yachts we redistribute some wealth to allow the millions of mal and undernourished people of this country (let alone the world) to eat? Can I only advocate for the homeless if I don't have a roof over my head (because I'm sure you'd take me much more seriously if I was pan handling on the street)? In a country where I'll be invited to "say that to my face" about some rich bastard who lives in a literal palace with literal gold all around him can I only complain about workers wages if I'm paid minimum wage to shine his shoes, or wipe his bottom?
You are doing a lot of protesting. You are living rent free in a house which is your Dad's he having been left it or somehow has it mortgage free after your mum died. I have no doubt that you would rather your mother was still alive and living in the house and I hope the discussion about it all is not too upsetting.
But the point is that you are the direct beneficiary of inherited property whoever owns it, you or your dad. And you want to dispossess people of inherited property.
Is all.
I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"
Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.
As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.
"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".
Amiright.
Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.
We know his own view on the election, but he’s never been afraid to take on anyone and everyone.
So now we’re in the situation where three of the most trusted political commentators, according to a poll the other week, are comedians: Stewart, Bill Maher, and Joe Rogan, which can only make one laugh at the rest of them.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
What possessions? My clothes? My books? My phone or laptop? Outside of that I do not really own much - I buy toiletries; I own a toothbrush and a razor. Maybe I own the bathroom in the house I live in because I paid to refurbish it because my dad refused, but outside of that? My furniture is all second hand or has been in the house since I was a literal child. I don't own a car - I use public transport. Half the stuff I use regularly to dull my mind, such as music or the odd PC game, aren't actually mine - they're rented to me. I own some cutlery, a few kitchen knives. I did buy my own fridge freezer and washer dryer (although I'm still using a 30 year old oven because I can't afford a new one any time soon).
How much do I have to not own before I'm allowed to suggest society may be a bit better if instead of allowing people to own slum empires or super yachts we redistribute some wealth to allow the millions of mal and undernourished people of this country (let alone the world) to eat? Can I only advocate for the homeless if I don't have a roof over my head (because I'm sure you'd take me much more seriously if I was pan handling on the street)? In a country where I'll be invited to "say that to my face" about some rich bastard who lives in a literal palace with literal gold all around him can I only complain about workers wages if I'm paid minimum wage to shine his shoes, or wipe his bottom?
You are doing a lot of protesting. You are living rent free in a house which is your Dad's he having been left it or somehow has it mortgage free after your mum died. I have no doubt that you would rather your mother was still alive and living in the house and I hope the discussion about it all is not too upsetting.
But the point is that you are the direct beneficiary of inherited property whoever owns it, you or your dad. And you want to dispossess people of inherited property.
Is all.
I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with.
Indeed you have. It's not mandatory you know.
I mean some things I've benefitted from, like the NHS, are generally a wider good. Other things I've benefitted from are not a generally wider good. I prefer things and systems that help make things better for lots of people. Even if that means things that previously benefitted me to others detriment stop being things.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
You often refer to controlling borders as "border fascism", so I guess you see favouring low immigration as a right-wing position. What has the level of immigration been like under the current government?
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
It's the stalking horse of the youth vote that worries me, 10-15 years down the line.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
There is a larger segment of the population without the asset-ownership that gives them a stake in the status quo. That means they haven't become natural centre-right voters.
But the legacy of the Thatcher reforms is that the union movement is moribund, and social housing tenancies rare, so the natural constituency of centre-left voters is also much diminished.
This creates a more volatile electorate and it really depends on what individual catches the imagination. They are as likely to swing far right as far left, depending on the charisma of individuals.
At the moment I sense that Farage is in some ways a blocker to this on the right - he has his fans, but there's also a relatively low ceiling on his support as he repels many. On the left, Galloway and Corbyn have an even narrower appeal.
We await our populist who will bring colour and rage to British politics if Starmer fails to rise to the challenge.
Doubt it. FPTP and the existence of the parliamentary Conservative Party is what protects us from the worst extremes of right-wing populism. As Boris ultimately found out.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”
Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner
Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.
Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”
Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner
Because he can afford to make himself poorer, when poorer people do not. (Not that I particularly enjoy this form of argument).
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"
Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.
As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.
"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".
Amiright.
Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.
Not to worry then. The big picture is plain enough. No probs seeing that. It's you seeking to delegitimize somebody's left wing political views because they're not poor enough for you.
Incidentally it is seldom I have agreed with a columnist so vehemently. Sullivan correctly identifies Wokeness as a mortal and terrible threat, it’s just that Trump is an even worse more immediate threat
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”
Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner
Because he can afford to make himself poorer, when poorer people do not. (Not that I particularly enjoy this form of argument).
The poorer people obviously don’t mind being a big poorer if they think there are other benefits to reducing immigration, it’s surely their choice?
Although they probably don’t believe the GDP way of working out the effects of mass immigration on low wages
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never doubted that you are on an entirely different planet to the rest of us, so nothing has changed
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.
Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.
Your australian friends certainly need to reduce their carbon footprint at a whopping 15 tons per person per year.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
FWIW, Monbiot is also worried that if Starmer fails then the next lot will be alt-right populist authoritarians and so on.
Starmer needs a Minister for the Future Generation or some such title. Working across Whitehall to actually deliver something for younger people.
Edit: And of course Cummings is working on some kind of new party apparently: The StartUp.
The best thing a government could deliver for younger people would be budget surpluses, significantly reducing their debt burden.
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"
Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.
As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.
"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".
Amiright.
Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.
Not to worry then. The big picture is plain enough. No probs seeing that. It's you seeking to delegitimize somebody's left wing political views because they're not poor enough for you.
The argument from @TOPPING seems to be, if I understand it correctly, "how dare you argue for something that would only work in a systemic manner (wealth redistribution) when you don't do that individually (citation needed) within the system you are criticising as not working".
Again, giving all my money to the next homeless person I see wouldn't solve the problem - the issue is that the state is currently the only mechanism by which to take some from those who have the most to give to those who have none.
If, on the other hand, you're saying you would agree it is my moral imperative to start kidnapping the richest people alive and threatening to unalive them (not sure if I can say the K word here, so will use the language of the youth) unless they gave away all their worldly possessions - all I can say is stand and deliver.
I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).
Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.
Yes, I linked that one a few days ago. He says he prefers Trump's policies but this is outweighed by his threat to democracy. The BTL bile he gets for his trouble from the relentlessly Trumpite unHerd crowd is striking.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
If it’s any reassurance, I’ve never doubted that you are on an entirely different planet to the rest of us, so nothing has changed
This is the energy I prefer from you - when you're calling me intelligent and stroking my ego I'm worried I must be being wrong.
Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.
Had a brief but intense thunderstorm today. 500,000 without power. An entire transport network collapsed.
Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.
Your australian friends certainly need to reduce their carbon footprint at a whopping 15 tons per person per year.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
We almost certainly skew autistic. As you might expect on a site about geeky politics mixed with statistics
We are also less creative than an average set of middle-upper middles? It’s me. Anyone else? @Mysticrose was a writer. But she’s gone
Ah, what have we here? It's yet another "They're on the Left but not giving all their money away" hypocrite shocker!
Aka PB Tories who can't argue rationally against a point instead targeting the personal circumstances of the person making it.
It's of course much more comfortable to those rich lefties to try to deflect such an argument. I mean you worked hard for your possessions you aren't about to give them away for some absurd political ideology, now, are you.
lol - "rich lefty, poor lefty, lefty in between"
Brilliant. I thought I'd made the point well enough but it's nice to have it reinforced so neatly.
As I said easy to laugh at the notion that those with abnormal wealth should make an abnormal contribution because you are campaigning for all of society to change and would happily pay more in such a society.
"Would happily pay more". But not of course "are actually paying more regardless of which government is in power".
Amiright.
Topping, I can't untangle that even after my 3rd coffee. Who's doing all this laughing at such an impeccable notion?
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
A man of your tremendous intellect should have little trouble deciphering what I'm banging on about. Perhaps it's wilful misunderestimating on your part. Who knows, eh.
Not to worry then. The big picture is plain enough. No probs seeing that. It's you seeking to delegitimize somebody's left wing political views because they're not poor enough for you.
The argument from @TOPPING seems to be, if I understand it correctly, "how dare you argue for something that would only work in a systemic manner (wealth redistribution) when you don't do that individually (citation needed) within the system you are criticising as not working".
Again, giving all my money to the next homeless person I see wouldn't solve the problem - the issue is that the state is currently the only mechanism by which to take some from those who have the most to give to those who have none.
If, on the other hand, you're saying you would agree it is my moral imperative to start kidnapping the richest people alive and threatening to unalive them (not sure if I can say the K word here, so will use the language of the youth) unless they gave away all their worldly possessions - all I can say is stand and deliver.
Yes it's feeble. But there's a 'trolling' element too. So watch out for that.
We know his own view on the election, but he’s never been afraid to take on anyone and everyone.
So now we’re in the situation where three of the most trusted political commentators, according to a poll the other week, are comedians: Stewart, Bill Maher, and Joe Rogan, which can only make one laugh at the rest of them.
Joe Rogan.
I have seen a few of his youtube videos interviewing wrestler.
Doesn't strike me as a political commentator, clearly I am wrong in that. More a Howard Stern wannabe.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
There’s also a generally high level of interest in booze, cricket, and engineering, so despite the agnosticism we make decent recruiting ground for the clergy.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.
BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:
George Galloway MP Nigel Farage MP Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) Dave Spart MP Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).
Can't wait.
Personally I'd be fine with that, because they all represent coherent political viewpoints with a decent level of support. These should be heard, and represented in Parliament, notwithstanding that I don't agree with them.
It is of course vanishingly unlikely that they would be part of any Government, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least have a chance to forward their views and those of their supporters.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
Reading PB regularly no doubt contributes to our gaiety
I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).
Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.
It's when you get right to the end, after explaining how bad Trump is:
FS: And would you be one of that large number of Americans? [ie those who would happily see Ukraine partitioned, and China occupy Taiwan].
AS: I’d be pretty close to them, yes. I don’t think there is a desire in the United States, nor has there really been for the last 20 years, for long engagement in conflicts far away. The people whose kids go to fight those wars don’t want their kids to go fight those wars. And a lot of people just simply look at the state of the US-Mexico border and say: why are we spending billions of dollars on the border between the Russian-dominated provinces in Ukraine and the rest of it? Why, when we can’t do it for our own border? That’s an incredibly potent argument.
FS: The world order is certainly going through a seismic shift, one that may involve war or will conflict being evaded and a deal being struck. The argument of those who support Trump would be that he’s not so deeply ideological, he likes a deal and, as you say, he’s not seriously attached to a particular set of principles. And they say: that’s the kind of leader we need right now to smooth things over.
AS: Yes. There are plenty of reasons, policy-wise, why I’d be happier with a Trump administration than a Biden one. There’s immigration, which I think the Democrats have completely screwed up. The numbers of people coming over are extraordinary at this point. And I think if he got a majority in the House and the Senate, he could easily pass immigration reform, and this time, unlike in 2016, he won’t be bamboozled by people like Paul Ryan into thinking that the most important thing is a tax cut for the super-wealthy.
I also think that regarding the wokeness stuff, even though I really find Trump horrid on so many levels, if he’s the only thing that can stop this stuff from being imposed across the country and across the United States Government, then you can see why I might prefer him over Biden, who is giving in to woke at every level. The federal government is involved in systematic DEI: in all of its capacities it now has putting equity at the heart of everything as a policy. He would remove that and there would be support for ending DEI in corporate America and in universities. He’s clearly taken out a position — even if he’s not interested in that stuff, he’ll find someone who is. And that’s a huge thing for the base. It would happen, I think.
I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).
Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.
Yes, I linked that one a few days ago. He says he prefers Trump's policies but this is outweighed by his threat to democracy. The BTL bile he gets for his trouble from the relentlessly Trumpite unHerd crowd is striking.
Does Trump have policies, other than “what’s good for Trump”?
Genuine question. Is there a discernible ideology beyond a troubling fascination with the west’s enemies on a “groupee” level?
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
You often refer to controlling borders as "border fascism", so I guess you see favouring low immigration as a right-wing position. What has the level of immigration been like under the current government?
I mean, I consider the method we currently use to manage the border as border fascism. The numbers that pass the border have little to do with how I judge the regime that the state implements at the border. This government would be happy if every small boat sank into the Channel with everyone on board as long as the papers didn't care about it. The idea of immigrants or refugees as this big social drain, of an existential threat, is common in government discussions on the topic. The bureaucracy of immiseration - moving people from place to place, putting them in small rooms or boats, giving them a weekly allowance of under £10, all in the attempt to make things so awful that people stop coming here - to stop a process that is as natural as humans drinking water - over an imagined border. It is border fascism even if everyone was granted asylum who asked for it - not because of the outcome but because of the process of purposeful dehumanisation and hatred the government aims to enforce.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Any contribution can be looked at in multiple ways. One is through the hermeneutic of suspicion - 'What unjust self interest does this lying bastard conceal in this comment' in which case the background and particularity of the person matters. This is a bit rife, but also can be unrewarding.
Another is to view all comments WRT their quality of argument and coherence with facts, and start with a presumption of good faith.
If you are a Marxist or a religious fanatic this latter is impossible. For the rest of us it is how a liberal and open society works. The enemies of an open society hate it.
The point you make needs more precision if it to get near any target. To one person 'right wing' means not increasing CGT. To another 'right wing' means arbitrary arrest and Belsen. Etc.
Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.
“ Keir Starmer is guilty of two kinds of flip-flop. The first kind is from positions he adopted in order to win the leadership of a party still in the grip of Corbynism. Those U-turns showed a cynicism that sometimes took the breath away, but the logic of “what it takes” was irresistible.”
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Well, everyone's experience is different. In financial terms, I've never been more comfortable than I am, right now.
Me too. If I voted based on my own circumstances and narrow financial interests I'd be a fanatical Tory. I suppose this must make me one of those rich lefty hypocrites.
It’s strange that people like yourself are happy to do that, but when less well off people are said to be voting against their own economic interests, by wanting to reduce immigration, they get laughed at with “You’re literally voting to make yourself poorer!!!”
Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner
Because he can afford to make himself poorer, when poorer people do not. (Not that I particularly enjoy this form of argument).
The poorer people obviously don’t mind being a big poorer if they think there are other benefits to reducing immigration, it’s surely their choice?
Although they probably don’t believe the GDP way of working out the effects of mass immigration on low wages
(i) Less immigration will improve my lot via higher wages and less stressed public services.
(ii) Less immigration will make me more comfortable in my own country because incomers don't look like me and don't share my values.
The relative strength (and degree of overlap) of the above 2 sentiments would be interesting to know.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
There’s also a generally high level of interest in booze, cricket, and engineering, so despite the agnosticism we make decent recruiting ground for the clergy.
We even have some home brewers such is the love of the old falling over water.
I saw someone posting about their homebrew last week, I have been making my own wine and beer for the last 5 years too.
Went to the optician this morning. Polite staff, good service.
Went to make a dental appointment. As feared, I'd been removed from the patient register without notice due to not having an appointment for a few years. This was due to the practice asking me not to make an appointment due to short staffing, and saying they'd call me when the situation changed.
Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.
Hmm. That article is timestamped three minutes ago (only just before your post). You are editor of the Indy AICMFP.
It is paywalled but for this part: The time it took the Labour leader to drop his would-be MP for sharing antisemitic conspiracy theories suggests he’ll find the speed and pressure of making calls at No 10 a worrying challenge, writes John Rentoul
That much might be true. We see every week at PMQs that Starmer is leaden-footed. He has excellently scripted, forensic questions that ultimately saw off Boris as Prime Minister, but he cannot think on his feet and react when an unexpected answer is given; he just ploughs on through the script.
Also given our age class and educational profiles I am pretty sure there are way more than 3 millionaires, on property prices alone
A cluster analysis of PB poster demographics and their sentiments would be fascinating. The lack of distinguishing factors is both a strength (same wavelength) and a weakness (the herd).
Some forums conduct censuses, but it would be difficult to present much analysis given the level of anonymisation required.
If we do get a Labour government - still an if as far as I am concerned - it will be on the back of votes from the under-60s. A government elected by working people. That, not class, is what will matter.
And what happens when Labour are unable to improve their lot?
Because I see absolutely no signs of them doing that. No plans, no policies, no hint of pzazz, nothing
Indeed it's quite possible Labour will make life worse by failing to take a grip on migration, and adding layers of Woke shit that make life even more tiresome, and business even more difficult
What then? Whither the voter?
If Labour fails then I guess the Tories have a chance if they haven't gone too far down the Trump and MAGA rabbit hole. Much will depend on who they make their next leader.
If Labour fail dramatically I suspect we will see a British Trump, Wilders or Le Pen. The voters will lurch hard right in despair
So it is quite important, especially if you are on the left, that Starmer gets shit done
It's important for the country that the next government is a lot better than this one. Relentless decline is clearly going to lead to dramatic reaction at some point.
Indeed. I don't hold out a huge amount of hope. Starmer seems scared of his own shadow and that lack of self-/confidence feeds through to Labour. There are some capable members of the Shadow Cabinet but overall, the quality is some way below Labour in the mid-90s, and the vision, positivity and programme that Blair, Brown and team laid out (even if overdone at the time), is completely lacking now.
But yes, the risk of the far-/populist-right is very real.
*Something* will rise up as opposition to Labour once they start failing and flailing in office. From the left, no doubt the Lib Dems, Greens and maybe Galloway's current mob will seek opportunity but 30% of the country will always be right-of-centre: if not the Tories, who do they turn to?
Or, worse, a far-left government: like Sinn Fein on acid.
I deeply fear a Corbynista government in blood and soul that would exappropriate pensions, savings and property and completely Venezuela the country.
Yes, it could happen here. That's why I don't want the next Labour government to "fail", despite being a staunch Tory.
It must deliver for its supporters.
It's much more likely to be hard right or even far right
Look around the western world:
Trump Meloni Le Pen Orban Wilders AfD True Finns Sweden Democrats Denmark in toto For Poland see Tusk's remarks below Etc etc etc
Britain is the great exception in swinging left, but if that swing does not work, it won't go further left, I am certain
I'm not sure Britain is even swinging left really. People are just absolutely sick of the Tories, after 14 years, and our voting system means if you want to kick them out, Labour is the only alternative.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
Agree. Currently the voter is for centrism and competence, which is why the current Labour crisis is serious, as they are the only candidate for this position.
BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:
George Galloway MP Nigel Farage MP Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) Dave Spart MP Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).
Can't wait.
Personally I'd be fine with that, because they all represent coherent political viewpoints with a decent level of support. These should be heard, and represented in Parliament, notwithstanding that I don't agree with them.
It is of course vanishingly unlikely that they would be part of any Government, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least have a chance to forward their views and those of their supporters.
The problem is that the more of these types you get, the more likely it is that they *will* become part of a government, either by choice or necessity of numbers.
As an aside, Galloway and Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) is a repetition.
We know his own view on the election, but he’s never been afraid to take on anyone and everyone.
So now we’re in the situation where three of the most trusted political commentators, according to a poll the other week, are comedians: Stewart, Bill Maher, and Joe Rogan, which can only make one laugh at the rest of them.
Joe Rogan.
I have seen a few of his youtube videos interviewing wrestler.
Doesn't strike me as a political commentator, clearly I am wrong in that. More a Howard Stern wannabe.
I think Rogan talks about pretty much every subject with pretty much every guest, which could be a scientist one day, a comedian the next, and a sportsman the next. He’s often found himself the subject of censure by the media for controversial viewpoints, especially around the handling of the pandemic. He also has a massive audience on Spotify, which is about to get bigger as his new contract sees him return to Apple Podcasts and Youtube.
Has their ever been an unofficial survey of wealth / class / age / voting intention on this platform of its users? Because some of the stuff people are saying here about how the Tories are so lefty and how right wing stuff has never been tried seems... wildly out of joint with the material reality of lots of people on the ground, in a way I just find extremely difficult to comprehend. Like let alone the same country - I'm starting to worry I don't live on the same planet as many of you.
Collectively we are richer than the UK norm, with some over the £1million mark, around three around the £10million mark, and I think one around the £50million mark. We are predominantly male, with a few women. I think we may be gayer than average, but that's tentative. I couldn't guess at the ethnic/racial mix: I'd hazard mostly agnostic, with some Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There are some around the median wealth or lower, but the presence and volubility of the rich makes it seem a bit less lopsided. In terms of age we do have a larger number of old and retired people, some of which are probably in their last decade or less. I think we're slightly older than the UK population, but given how that skews we may be simply representative. We have many professionals and skilled trades (lawyers, doctors, a couple of warfighters, and at least two statisticians ) and others in the managerial class. We do skew towards the educated and I think the number of postgrads is higher than normal.
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
We almost certainly skew autistic. As you might expect on a site about geeky politics mixed with statistics
We are also less creative than an average set of middle-upper middles? It’s me. Anyone else? @Mysticrose was a writer. But she’s gone
Marquee mark maybe? But I’m not sure
Marquee Mark's missus, if she counts. Roger, of course. Morris Dancer?
I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).
Is he? That's not my reading of the interview at all. He is not voting for him and sees him as a massive threat to rule of law.
Yes, I linked that one a few days ago. He says he prefers Trump's policies but this is outweighed by his threat to democracy. The BTL bile he gets for his trouble from the relentlessly Trumpite unHerd crowd is striking.
Does Trump have policies, other than “what’s good for Trump”?
Genuine question. Is there a discernible ideology beyond a troubling fascination with the west’s enemies on a “groupee” level?
He doesn't, no, but there's a hard right grouping around him who do.
Also very few elected politicos: I count El Capitano (LD), Andy Cooke (LD), Nick Palmer (Lab) and yours truly (Con) as Councillors, and no declared MPs.
Also given our age class and educational profiles I am pretty sure there are way more than 3 millionaires, on property prices alone
A cluster analysis of PB poster demographics and their sentiments would be fascinating. The lack of distinguishing factors is both a strength (same wavelength) and a weakness (the herd).
Some forums conduct censuses, but it would be difficult to present much analysis given the level of anonymisation required.
One nice thing about this site is the relative lack of parroting of party lines. People at least pretend to hold a coherent view.
Comments
However I am then quibbling over the definition of migrant, probably wrongly. 40% is high!
I am happy to withdraw Saudi
@SouthamObserver is correct, it is actually quite hard to find wealthy low tax/low migrant countries; however the UK still has the worst of all all worlds, relatively high tax and outrageously high immigration
Liz Truss was an ideological free-marketeer who clashed with reality. She wasn't (and isn’t) far right.
I'd argue they are worth virtually nothing. No one would buy them.
The owners just have to hope they had insurance cover that would pay them what they would be worth if they were located 1 mile further inland.
Because those properties are going into the sea by the end of this decade.
If we had PR you'd see the anti-Tory vote splitting off all over the place, which is another reason Labour will never get rid of FPTP at general elections, lol!
Israel is a First World Country, with democracy, trans rights and Eurovision.
Africa is the place where piles of dead people happen every other day.
The 2010GE result wasn't too polarised, demographically, but then it all got a bit oligarchy-like and it's remarkably short-sighted: in the past the Tories have thrived when expanding property ownership and wealth, not cosseting it for its core base like a 21stC version of the 1840s.
I accept I have benefited from something I disagree with. If I had power to change things, I would change it in a way that may disadvantage me (in that respect) to advantage others less fortunate than me. I don't see what is complicated about this.
https://x.com/cliffordslapper/status/1754899378391638509
The British Fascist Movement 2024 (yes, that's what they are & we need to start calling them that, relentlessly, to preserve the fragile democracy they hate) is not very original or imaginative. Truss's speech is word for word what Hitler was saying before rising to power.
Then I think (but this is only tentative) you're asking me if there's some sort of 'lefty premium' in the UK tax regime?
Well, no. It works off your numbers not your political views. I guess you could change it along those lines but there are some obvious issues with that.
BTW on the subject of what you get with PR, five more or less certainties:
George Galloway MP
Nigel Farage MP
Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s)
Dave Spart MP
Repatriate Johnny Foreigner MP(s).
Can't wait.
I see Andrew Sullivan is now joining the cult of Trump (and US isolationism).
But the legacy of the Thatcher reforms is that the union movement is moribund, and social housing tenancies rare, so the natural constituency of centre-left voters is also much diminished.
This creates a more volatile electorate and it really depends on what individual catches the imagination. They are as likely to swing far right as far left, depending on the charisma of individuals.
At the moment I sense that Farage is in some ways a blocker to this on the right - he has his fans, but there's also a relatively low ceiling on his support as he repels many. On the left, Galloway and Corbyn have an even narrower appeal.
We await our populist who will bring colour and rage to British politics if Starmer fails to rise to the challenge.
https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk
max seddon
@maxseddon
Russia intends to double the number of its troops stationed along its border with the Baltic states and Finland as part of preparations for a potential military conflict with Nato within the next decade, according to Estonia’s foreign intelligence service.
On the one hand this is incredibly exciting - life moving into new areas. Imagine if Greenland was actually green! But then, 7m of sea level rise. Ah well.
Episode 1: “INDecision 2024, what the f&#k are we doing?”
https://youtube.com/watch?v=NpBPm0b9deQ
We know his own view on the election, but he’s never been afraid to take on anyone and everyone.
So now we’re in the situation where three of the most trusted political commentators, according to a poll the other week, are comedians: Stewart, Bill Maher, and Joe Rogan, which can only make one laugh at the rest of them.
Toodle pip!
Not that I can remember you personally saying that, but it is often said in a kind of “How dense are they?!” manner
Chastening. It's not the gradual rise in temperatures, or the slow change in local climates. These extreme weather events might be the story of the next 50 years, and I don't think people back home in the UK appreciate how disruptive they are.
That’s Sullivan repudiating Trump
Incidentally it is seldom I have agreed with a columnist so vehemently. Sullivan correctly identifies Wokeness as a mortal and terrible threat, it’s just that Trump is an even worse more immediate threat
Although they probably don’t believe the GDP way of working out the effects of mass immigration on low wages
Given our profile and engagement I assume we're an advertiser's dream...
Again, giving all my money to the next homeless person I see wouldn't solve the problem - the issue is that the state is currently the only mechanism by which to take some from those who have the most to give to those who have none.
If, on the other hand, you're saying you would agree it is my moral imperative to start kidnapping the richest people alive and threatening to unalive them (not sure if I can say the K word here, so will use the language of the youth) unless they gave away all their worldly possessions - all I can say is stand and deliver.
His shambolic U-turn over the Rochdale candidate is Starmer’s biggest blunder yet
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-rochdale-azhar-ali-labour-uturn-b2495230.html
Of course, according to some on PB, this was all simply faux outrage from diehard Tories after all Louise Ellman was tweeting in support of the hapless Ali.
We are also less creative than an average set of middle-upper middles? It’s me. Anyone else? @Mysticrose was a writer. But she’s gone
Marquee mark maybe? But I’m not sure
I have seen a few of his youtube videos interviewing wrestler.
Doesn't strike me as a political commentator, clearly I am wrong in that. More a Howard Stern wannabe.
It is of course vanishingly unlikely that they would be part of any Government, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least have a chance to forward their views and those of their supporters.
- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/paul-currie-comedian-antisemitism-jewish-guest-audience-soho-theatre-kb67xrmwm
- https://www.leeds.ac.uk/main-index/news/article/5510/university-statement-antisemitic-attacks-on-hillel-house-and-rabbi-deutsch.
FS: And would you be one of that large number of Americans? [ie those who would happily see Ukraine partitioned, and China occupy Taiwan].
AS: I’d be pretty close to them, yes. I don’t think there is a desire in the United States, nor has there really been for the last 20 years, for long engagement in conflicts far away. The people whose kids go to fight those wars don’t want their kids to go fight those wars. And a lot of people just simply look at the state of the US-Mexico border and say: why are we spending billions of dollars on the border between the Russian-dominated provinces in Ukraine and the rest of it? Why, when we can’t do it for our own border? That’s an incredibly potent argument.
FS: The world order is certainly going through a seismic shift, one that may involve war or will conflict being evaded and a deal being struck. The argument of those who support Trump would be that he’s not so deeply ideological, he likes a deal and, as you say, he’s not seriously attached to a particular set of principles. And they say: that’s the kind of leader we need right now to smooth things over.
AS: Yes. There are plenty of reasons, policy-wise, why I’d be happier with a Trump administration than a Biden one. There’s immigration, which I think the Democrats have completely screwed up. The numbers of people coming over are extraordinary at this point. And I think if he got a majority in the House and the Senate, he could easily pass immigration reform, and this time, unlike in 2016, he won’t be bamboozled by people like Paul Ryan into thinking that the most important thing is a tax cut for the super-wealthy.
I also think that regarding the wokeness stuff, even though I really find Trump horrid on so many levels, if he’s the only thing that can stop this stuff from being imposed across the country and across the United States Government, then you can see why I might prefer him over Biden, who is giving in to woke at every level. The federal government is involved in systematic DEI: in all of its capacities it now has putting equity at the heart of everything as a policy. He would remove that and there would be support for ending DEI in corporate America and in universities. He’s clearly taken out a position — even if he’s not interested in that stuff, he’ll find someone who is. And that’s a huge thing for the base. It would happen, I think.
Genuine question. Is there a discernible ideology beyond a troubling fascination with the west’s enemies on a “groupee” level?
Another is to view all comments WRT their quality of argument and coherence with facts, and start with a presumption of good faith.
If you are a Marxist or a religious fanatic this latter is impossible. For the rest of us it is how a liberal and open society works. The enemies of an open society hate it.
The point you make needs more precision if it to get near any target.
To one person 'right wing' means not increasing CGT. To another 'right wing' means arbitrary arrest and Belsen. Etc.
I think I agree
(ii) Less immigration will make me more comfortable in my own country because incomers don't look like me and don't share my values.
The relative strength (and degree of overlap) of the above 2 sentiments would be interesting to know.
I saw someone posting about their homebrew last week, I have been making my own wine and beer for the last 5 years too.
I am sure others do as well.
Went to make a dental appointment. As feared, I'd been removed from the patient register without notice due to not having an appointment for a few years. This was due to the practice asking me not to make an appointment due to short staffing, and saying they'd call me when the situation changed.
It is paywalled but for this part: The time it took the Labour leader to drop his would-be MP for sharing antisemitic conspiracy theories suggests he’ll find the speed and pressure of making calls at No 10 a worrying challenge, writes John Rentoul
That much might be true. We see every week at PMQs that Starmer is leaden-footed. He has excellently scripted, forensic questions that ultimately saw off Boris as Prime Minister, but he cannot think on his feet and react when an unexpected answer is given; he just ploughs on through the script.
Some forums conduct censuses, but it would be difficult to present much analysis given the level of anonymisation required.
As an aside, Galloway and Islamic Conspiracy Theorist Party MP(s) is a repetition.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/poll-bill-maher-trusted-more-than-tucker-carlson-joe-rogan-and-even-jake-tapper/
I think Rogan talks about pretty much every subject with pretty much every guest, which could be a scientist one day, a comedian the next, and a sportsman the next. He’s often found himself the subject of censure by the media for controversial viewpoints, especially around the handling of the pandemic. He also has a massive audience on Spotify, which is about to get bigger as his new contract sees him return to Apple Podcasts and Youtube.