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Record low temperatures forecast for Iowa’s polling day – politicalbetting.com

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  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    Pagan2 said:

    Speaking of Waterloo, Iowa (doesn't everyone) recall the day (or rather evening) when I drove into town from Des Moines, a drive of several hours on semi-icy roads past very snowy fields.

    Temperature had been dropping all day, and by the time I made Waterloo (pronounced "water-LOO" by locals) it was well below freezing. So cold in fact, that my car's humble radiator began freezing up; I was damn lucky to make it.

    Especially as it was in the dim, distant days before cell phones; and in a land where you could (and still can) drive for miles before seeing a house, or an outhouse for that matter.

    If you let in more mexicans it wouldnt be so empty
    Already a growing Latino, mostly Mexican community in Iowa, especially in meatpacking and other ag processing. In recent years several elected to public office, including at least one conservative Republican state legislator.

    And these newcomers - though some have been Iowans for decades now - do indeed help density up particular in rural areas.

    Immigrants also important in maintaining community critical mass, as doctors, nurses and (for Catholics) as priests.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,804
    Cyclefree said:

    What is the matter with you all?

    If I knew that things would go much easier for me.
    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Well he's right.
  • I think the caption picture is trying to send us a subtle message as to who benefits the most from extra cold weather.

    Which is quite ironic because Haley is actually seen as probably the worst of the three candidates to deal with this as the other two have set up quite a sophisticated infrastructure to bring voters to the polls.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Andy_JS said:

    Keep calmer and vote Starmer.

    If you like gravy, vote Davey...

    :wink:
    If you like Lurpak, vote Sunak.
    Eat rice and vote Tice.
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Not flash.

    Just Keir.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718

    In addition to ruling out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension Starmer is considering watering down the non dom tax proposals

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/12/flagship-labour-plan-scrap-non-dom-tax-breaks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Unlike the HS2 cop out that’s actually a very sensible proposal, or at least the start of something that could become sensible.

    The trouble with our non dom regime is firstly that it’s not a regime as such. It’s the accidental product of over a century of case law. And as currently framed it actually discourages wealthy people from repatriating and investing money in the UK. It’s an utterly stupid rule.

    Many countries have temporary tax holidays for wealthy immigrants with no restrictions on repatriation. A similar rule could well bring in more tax revenue if it encourages people actually to pull money into the UK, particularly if combined with incentives for private investment.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,382

    Andy_JS said:

    Keep calmer and vote Starmer.

    If you like gravy, vote Davey...

    :wink:
    If you like Lurpak, vote Sunak.
    Hattersley was lard once.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    Boeing Open Door = Wages of Woke = Wackest Shit Ever.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,704

    Andy_JS said:

    Keep calmer and vote Starmer.

    If you like gravy, vote Davey...

    :wink:
    If you like Lurpak, vote Sunak.
    If you like vagueness, vote Starmer.

    ...

    Doesn't really work. But maybe that's the plan.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,718

    Andy_JS said:

    Keep calmer and vote Starmer.

    If you like gravy, vote Davey...

    :wink:
    If you like Lurpak, vote Sunak.
    Eat rice and vote Tice.
    Vote Davey if you like gravy
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,382

    In addition to ruling out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension Starmer is considering watering down the non dom tax proposals

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/12/flagship-labour-plan-scrap-non-dom-tax-breaks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    The manifesto will be a set of eight blank pages with his photo on the cover at this rate.

    Very late 70s art school rejection of modernism type thing but as a programme for government?

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,630
    It's going to be a LONG run up to the GE 😈
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    Carnyx said:

    Grout Museum District, Waterloo, Iowa

    The Grout Museum District – named after Henry W. Grout – is a set of museums in Waterloo, Iowa. The District consists of the Grout Museum of History & Science, Bluedorn Science Imaginarium, Rensselaer Russell House Museum, Snowden House and the Sullivan Brothers Iowa Veterans Museum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grout_Museum

    https://www.groutmuseumdistrict.org/?gclid=CjwKCAiA44OtBhAOEiwAj4gpOfaB6HtS8wdbWXmcj1L1KrLkJPVHwG1fQ8W7LcSuGhVJe3RNCTG3DRoC4SYQAvD_BwE

    Am obliged to Scott for turning me on this the existence of something I didn't know existed.

    However, I did know about the Sullivan Brothers, but had forgotten they came from Waterloo:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_brothers

    Oh, the Sullivans after whom a Fletcher-class destroyer was named? Now those I have heard of.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrMGco9TySs

    And a movie

    The Fighting Sullivans
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrMGco9TySs
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,571
    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    There has never been a system of any size delivered without errors.

    It's the terrible way those problems with Horizon were handled that ruined the lives of so many.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,704
    TimS said:

    In addition to ruling out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension Starmer is considering watering down the non dom tax proposals

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/12/flagship-labour-plan-scrap-non-dom-tax-breaks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Unlike the HS2 cop out that’s actually a very sensible proposal, or at least the start of something that could become sensible.

    The trouble with our non dom regime is firstly that it’s not a regime as such. It’s the accidental product of over a century of case law. And as currently framed it actually discourages wealthy people from repatriating and investing money in the UK. It’s an utterly stupid rule.

    Many countries have temporary tax holidays for wealthy immigrants with no restrictions on repatriation. A similar rule could well bring in more tax revenue if it encourages people actually to pull money into the UK, particularly if combined with incentives for private investment.
    We'll end up with tax holidays for sure. Apart from when we don't. And then do. Apart from Circumstance X. Until newspaper headline Y. Then there's always Z to worry about. So (no|yes) to tax holidays!

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited January 12
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Keir Starmer categorically rules out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/labour-leader-keir-starmer-says-28431692

    Very sad. It seems we have national consensus that our country's aspiration should be capped at "rustic backwater".
    I remain incandescent at this short sighted stupidity.

    Incredible, but Sunak is turning out to be a worse PM than Johnson.

    But Starmer seems all too keen to double down on it, Brexit style.

    The need for more capacity on the West coast line hasn’t gone away but he seems unduly keen to write it off.

    Where’s the Kennedy speech? “We choose to go to Manchester. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard”,
    What's foolish about that interview is he says he still wants to build Northern Powerhouse Rail.

    Which can't be done without HS2.

    So either he's going to build HS2, or not build NPR. He can't have it both ways.

    And both are needed, so both will, ultimately, be built and have to be paid for. Somehow.

    A windfall tax on Sunak's intellect - £10 billion per IQ point - would probably solve the problem. Well, an extra £150 billion would at least come in handy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,382
    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,748
    edited January 12

    In addition to ruling out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension Starmer is considering watering down the non dom tax proposals

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/12/flagship-labour-plan-scrap-non-dom-tax-breaks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    The manifesto will be a set of eight blank pages with his photo on the cover at this rate.

    Very late 70s art school rejection of modernism type thing but as a programme for government?

    Tony Blairs fingerprints are all over this and even the vat on private schools may see a change if Blair has his way
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,093

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,704

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    The AI they've outsourced this to has a bit of a problem with hands, you see.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,133
    TimS said:

    Keir Starmer categorically rules out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/labour-leader-keir-starmer-says-28431692

    Very sad. It seems we have national consensus that our country's aspiration should be capped at "rustic backwater".
    I don't think he really believes in this policy, but he's afraid the Tories will use it against him during an election if he doesn't take this position.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    They're being a taxed from all sides.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    I read that earlier - what a total mess

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    edited January 12

    I think the caption picture is trying to send us a subtle message as to who benefits the most from extra cold weather.

    Which is quite ironic because Haley is actually seen as probably the worst of the three candidates to deal with this as the other two have set up quite a sophisticated infrastructure to bring voters to the polls.

    That theory is certainly in line with media reporting.

    However, in past Iowa caucuses, for both parties, there have been claims by campaigns that did NOT pan out on Caucus Night.

    Traditionally candidates who have significant evangelical backing, have advantage of access to fleets of church buses.

    On the other hand . . . we shall soon see!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,704
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Keir Starmer categorically rules out the Birmingham to Manchester HS2 extension

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/labour-leader-keir-starmer-says-28431692

    Very sad. It seems we have national consensus that our country's aspiration should be capped at "rustic backwater".
    I remain incandescent at this short sighted stupidity.

    Incredible, but Sunak is turning out to be a worse PM than Johnson.

    But Starmer seems all too keen to double down on it, Brexit style.

    The need for more capacity on the West coast line hasn’t gone away but he seems unduly keen to write it off.

    Where’s the Kennedy speech? “We choose to go to Manchester. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard”,
    What's foolish about that interview is he says he still wants to build Northern Powerhouse Rail.

    Which can't be done without HS2.

    So either he's going to build HS2, or not build NPR. He can't have it both ways.

    And both are needed, so both will, ultimately, be built and have to be paid for. Somehow.

    A windfall tax on Sunak's intellect - £10 billion per IQ point - would probably solve the problem. Well, an extra £150 billion would at least come in handy.
    He's going to build Great British HS7 and Great British NPR5 - which is a very different prospect. Don't ask for details. Details are for losers. And winning by a small margin is all that counts. Because then you can.... be the winner? For several years at least!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,341

    @Mexicanpete should go. And go now. Boring.

    You and I could battle it out for the Dreariest Poster of the Year award.
    Not whilst I'm still here....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited January 12

    I think the caption picture is trying to send us a subtle message as to who benefits the most from extra cold weather.

    Which is quite ironic because Haley is actually seen as probably the worst of the three candidates to deal with this as the other two have set up quite a sophisticated infrastructure to bring voters to the polls.

    That theory is certainly in line with media reporting.

    However, in past Iowa caucuses, for both parties, there have been claims by campaigns that did NOT pan out on Caucus Night.

    Traditionally candidates who have significant evangelical backing, have advantage of access to fleets of church buses.

    On the other hand . . . we shall soon see!
    I admire anyone who can drive a bus safely in -45C,* but I wouldn't be joining them on it.

    *To be fair I admire anyone who can drive a bus any time.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,341
    ohnotnow said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Keep calmer and vote Starmer.

    If you like gravy, vote Davey...

    :wink:
    If you like Lurpak, vote Sunak.
    If you like vagueness, vote Starmer.

    ...

    Doesn't really work. But maybe that's the plan.
    If you think skyr is tasty, vote Sir Keir...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    ydoethur said:

    I think the caption picture is trying to send us a subtle message as to who benefits the most from extra cold weather.

    Which is quite ironic because Haley is actually seen as probably the worst of the three candidates to deal with this as the other two have set up quite a sophisticated infrastructure to bring voters to the polls.

    That theory is certainly in line with media reporting.

    However, in past Iowa caucuses, for both parties, there have been claims by campaigns that did NOT pan out on Caucus Night.

    Traditionally candidates who have significant evangelical backing, have advantage of access to fleets of church buses.

    On the other hand . . . we shall soon see!
    I admire anyone who can drive a bus safely in -45C,* but I wouldn't be joining them on it.

    *To be fair I admire anyone who can drive a bus any time.
    With luck the driver will have a bottle of Everclear handy for emergencies.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    I'm not sure if this has been published, but yet another straw for Trump's back:

    Donald Trump asked to pay NY Times nearly $400,000 in legal costs
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67964672

    Small beer compared to the likely amount he'll have to cough up for his fraud case, but yet another leakage on his campaign funds.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,575

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I think had 4 deg F in Boulder, Colorado on New Year's Eve, 2010.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    For shame.

    https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/i-see-no-ships.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I think had 4 deg F in Boulder, Colorado on New Year's Eve, 2010.
    I had -11C in Radnor Forest once.

    The punchline is, there was thick snow and I was driving.

    It was - interesting.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534
    In local sporting news, Seattle Seahawks professional football team, has parted ways with winingest coach in team history (not sayin' much) after missing out on NFL playoffs.

    PLUS the coach for University of Washington football team, which just lost national NCAA championship game to University of Michigan, has just been hired by University of Alabama, which lost to UM in semi-final.

    Personally not much of a UW football fan. But I ain't no kind of 'Bama fan! Geaux LSU!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,578
    A

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    There has never been a system of any size delivered without errors.

    It's the terrible way those problems with Horizon were handled that ruined the lives of so many.
    Horizon was staggeringly shit - apart from being unable to do transactions reliably, it had very little reconciliation and internal tracing. So it was nearly impossible to work out what it fucked up.

    It was a disaster before the lying scumbags started lying.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,487
    edited January 12
    South Korea bans dog meat:

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/south-korea-passes-law-to-ban-dog-meat/3103792

    Leon will have to get his fill under a white napkin, Mitterrand Ortolan style.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,093

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    Nelson at the Battle of Copenhagen (“I see no ships”) - he was told to retreat if the French/Danish received reinforcements
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,093

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I was fine except for the 20 yards from the car to the building where I was to meet.

    And the fact that their security protocols meant my identity had to be verified before they would let me out of the cold

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,592
    edited January 12
    I quite like the cold, but going camping in Utah in December was a bit of a mistake. It wasn't so much that I was cold, it was more that getting food into a useable state was a bit difficult. I have no idea what temperature it was but keeping milk in your sleeping bag didn't work because it froze on the way from bottle to bowl.

    In this country I have been skiing in -20C at Glenmore in Scotland after -26C overnight. It isn't actually too bad if there isn't much wind and you are putting some effort in.

    The problem in Iowa is that it is going to be windy.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I was fine except for the 20 yards from the car to the building where I was to meet.

    And the fact that their security protocols meant my identity had to be verified before they would let me out of the cold

    So much for "Minnesota Nice"? Sounds more like Minnesota Ice!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,463
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    What Post Minister signed that off?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,093

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I was fine except for the 20 yards from the car to the building where I was to meet.

    And the fact that their security protocols meant my identity had to be verified before they would let me out of the cold

    So much for "Minnesota Nice"? Sounds more like Minnesota Ice!
    Standing in the cold outside a nondescript building outside in a nondescript street of a nondescript suburb…
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,592
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    What Post Minister signed that off?
    I doubt it was put in those terms...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I was fine except for the 20 yards from the car to the building where I was to meet.

    And the fact that their security protocols meant my identity had to be verified before they would let me out of the cold

    So much for "Minnesota Nice"? Sounds more like Minnesota Ice!
    Standing in the cold outside a nondescript building outside in a nondescript street of a nondescript suburb…
    They should have offered to take you ice fishing.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,382
    WillG said:
    But what worries me even more is the change I see in ordinary Americans. I live in the heart of MAGA country, and Donald Trump is the single most culturally influential person here. It’s not close. He’s far more influential than any pastor, politician, coach or celebrity. He has changed people politically and also personally. It is common for those outside the Trump movement to describe their aunts or uncles or parents or grandparents as “lost.” They mean their relatives’ lives are utterly dominated by Trump, Trump’s media and Trump’s grievances.

    NY Times today.

  • Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    What Post Minister signed that off?
    Can only be Davy or Starmer. What we going to do about them?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,534

    Scott_xP said:

    I think Iowa is the coldest place I have ever been

    -2F

    Why? When? Where?
    Minneapolis St Paul for me. -25C mid December
    At least you could head underground, hun?
    I was fine except for the 20 yards from the car to the building where I was to meet.

    And the fact that their security protocols meant my identity had to be verified before they would let me out of the cold

    So much for "Minnesota Nice"? Sounds more like Minnesota Ice!
    Standing in the cold outside a nondescript building outside in a nondescript street of a nondescript suburb…
    You are the ghost of Sinclair Lewis and I claim 1% of past royalties.
  • A

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    There has never been a system of any size delivered without errors.

    It's the terrible way those problems with Horizon were handled that ruined the lives of so many.
    Horizon was staggeringly shit - apart from being unable to do transactions reliably, it had very little reconciliation and internal tracing. So it was nearly impossible to work out what it fucked up.

    It was a disaster before the lying scumbags started lying.
    Richard Rolls, former Fujitsu IT consultant, described it at the Inquiry as 'crap'.

    Even the barrister smiled.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
    The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,382

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    5h
    Extreme cold is intensifying in North America.
    In CANADA temperatures have plummeted to -48C in British Columbia and Alberta.
    -45.9C at Edmonton Int. AP one of the lowest temp. on record in the airport with the chance to drop even further.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    I read that earlier - what a total mess

    It's unbelievable.

    Every time you think it can't get worse, it does.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    I quite like the cold, but going camping in Utah in December was a bit of a mistake. It wasn't so much that I was cold, it was more that getting food into a useable state was a bit difficult. I have no idea what temperature it was but keeping milk in your sleeping bag didn't work because it froze on the way from bottle to bowl.

    In this country I have been skiing in -20C at Glenmore in Scotland after -26C overnight. It isn't actually too bad if there isn't much wind and you are putting some effort in.

    The problem in Iowa is that it is going to be windy.

    That's always the problem when you have a lot of politicians in the same place.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,575


    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    5h
    Extreme cold is intensifying in North America.
    In CANADA temperatures have plummeted to -48C in British Columbia and Alberta.
    -45.9C at Edmonton Int. AP one of the lowest temp. on record in the airport with the chance to drop even further.

    Global warming :lol:
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,981

    TimS said:

    -7.7C at my vineyard on Wednesday night. No US caucus there though.

    Ha! Where's yer global warming now! :lol:
    Big mistake to call it that instead of Climate Chaos, which is what we’re facing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    edited January 13
    Deleted
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
    Oh I reached the A La Lanterne stage on this a while back.

    The PO is already insolvent. It does not have a pot to piss on and is only kept afloat by our money.

    The entire Board will as a matter of corporate law have signed off on the accounts, that they gave a true and fair view and complied with all relevant laws, including those pertaining to tax. Then there are the auditors. And the GC who will have advised the Board. Plus the CFO.

    As for who signed off or was aware of the bonuses, remember that the government had its own appointed director on the Board.

    Those names again: -

    Susannah Storey 2012 – 2014
    Richard Callard 2014 – 2018
    Tom Cooper 2018 – 2023
    Lorna Gratton May 2023 to date

    All of these are civil servants, save for Tom Cooper, an investment banker for many years. (I knew him professionally.) Richard Callard trained and worked as an accountant before joining the civil service in 2009.

    Where are they now?

    Ms Storey is the Permanent Secretary at the Department of Culture, Media & Sport.

    From Richard Callard's bio at UK Government Investments:

    "Richard currently works within UKGI’s joint unit with the Ministry of Defence, which provides corporate finance and governance advice on a range of issues facing the MOD. Previously, Richard led the Post Office Shareholder team and was a NED on the Post Office Board for four years. Richard also led UKGI’s team overseeing Government’s shareholding in the Green Investment Bank and led the establishment of one of the UK’s largest employee shares schemes during the privatisation of Royal Mail.

    Richard joined UKGI from Deloitte, where he advised on public-private finance deals. He is a Chartered Accountant by background."

    And this is Tom Cooper:-

    "Tom Cooper joined UK Government Investments in October 2017.

    At UKGI, he has served on three Boards as HMG’s representative: Post Office, OneWeb; and EastWest Rail.

    Prior to joining UKGI he was Global Co-Chairman of M&A at Deutsche Bank where he worked from 2009 – 2017. He started his career at KMPG and was at UBS Investment Bank for 21 years where his various roles included Head of European M&A."

    He resigned last year from PO after last year's bonus fiasco.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,133
    edited January 13
    Looking forward to Gareth Jenkins' evidence at the inquiry. He was chief software engineer for Fujitsu right from the very start of the Horizon project in 1996.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
    Oh I reached the A La Lanterne stage on this a while back.

    The PO is already insolvent. It does not have a pot to piss on and is only kept afloat by our money.

    The entire Board will as a matter of corporate law have signed off on the accounts, that they gave a true and fair view and complied with all relevant laws, including those pertaining to tax. Then there are the auditors. And the GC who will have advised the Board. Plus the CFO.

    As for who signed off or was aware of the bonuses, remember that the government had its own appointed director on the Board.

    Those names again: -

    Susannah Storey 2012 – 2014
    Richard Callard 2014 – 2018
    Tom Cooper 2018 – 2023
    Lorna Gratton May 2023 to date

    All of these are civil servants, save for Tom Cooper, an investment banker for many years. (I knew him professionally.) Richard Callard trained and worked as an accountant before joining the civil service in 2009.

    Where are they now?

    Ms Storey is the Permanent Secretary at the Department of Culture, Media & Sport.

    From Richard Callard's bio at UK Government Investments:

    "Richard currently works within UKGI’s joint unit with the Ministry of Defence, which provides corporate finance and governance advice on a range of issues facing the MOD. Previously, Richard led the Post Office Shareholder team and was a NED on the Post Office Board for four years. Richard also led UKGI’s team overseeing Government’s shareholding in the Green Investment Bank and led the establishment of one of the UK’s largest employee shares schemes during the privatisation of Royal Mail.

    Richard joined UKGI from Deloitte, where he advised on public-private finance deals. He is a Chartered Accountant by background."

    And this is Tom Cooper:-

    "Tom Cooper joined UK Government Investments in October 2017.

    At UKGI, he has served on three Boards as HMG’s representative: Post Office, OneWeb; and EastWest Rail.

    Prior to joining UKGI he was Global Co-Chairman of M&A at Deutsche Bank where he worked from 2009 – 2017. He started his career at KMPG and was at UBS Investment Bank for 21 years where his various roles included Head of European M&A."

    He resigned last year from PO after last year's bonus fiasco.
    Wow! These are hardly people who can say 'I didn't know what was going on.'

    When do you think the prosecutions will start? I'd assumed it would wait until after the inquiry, but the mob is baying. I don't think the Government can let it wait that long.

    It might also help its election prospects if there were a few timely show trials (the little fish, of course.) That creature Bradshaw seemed to self-select on Thursday. He'd do for a start.

    Of course we've barely begun to examine the current Government's role, but I guess that will have to wait until after the election.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,648
    edited January 13
    There seems to be a narrative that Trump is well ahead of Biden in the polls - but polls in the last few days don't really support that. Most recent polls:

    National:
    Zogby: Trump +1
    YouGov: Tie
    Rasmussen: Trump +8
    Ipsos: Tie

    Michigan:
    Target: Biden +4

    Nevada:
    Emerson: Trump +2

    Pennsylvania:
    Quinnipiac: Biden +3

    A mixed picture to some degree (as we would expect) - but overall they aren't that bad for Biden.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,768
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
    The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
    The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.

    Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,975
    sarissa said:

    TimS said:

    -7.7C at my vineyard on Wednesday night. No US caucus there though.

    Ha! Where's yer global warming now! :lol:
    Big mistake to call it that instead of Climate Chaos, which is what we’re facing.
    Canada could fluctuate from -50C in the Winter to 40C in the Summer.

    That whopping range could play havoc with infrastructure.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,768

    A

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    There has never been a system of any size delivered without errors.

    It's the terrible way those problems with Horizon were handled that ruined the lives of so many.
    Horizon was staggeringly shit - apart from being unable to do transactions reliably, it had very little reconciliation and internal tracing. So it was nearly impossible to work out what it fucked up.

    It was a disaster before the lying scumbags started lying.
    Richard Rolls, former Fujitsu IT consultant, described it at the Inquiry as 'crap'.

    Even the barrister smiled.
    On 15 February 2001, the then competitiveness minister, Alan Johnson, told the Commons: “Horizon is not outdated technology. We are wiring up 40,000 serving positions at 18,500 post offices at a rate of 300 a week. It has been extremely successful … Number of post offices computerised under the previous government – nil. Number of post office computerised under this government so far – 17,560.”

    On 24 March 2004, the then secretary of state for trade and industry, Patricia Hewitt, said: “We decided that there was no point in rescuing that absurd out-of-date Conservative proposition for a benefit payment card. Instead, we invested the best part of £500m in the Horizon platform ... Thanks to the investment and the decisions that we have made, the Horizon platform and the automation of the post offices have now modernised post offices.”
  • IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.

    The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.

    Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
    I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?

    As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.

    I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.

    Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
    The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
    The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.

    Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
    To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)

    The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.

    Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?

    I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    tlg86 said:

    Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.

    Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,570

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    I blame Michael Gove. I think Leon mentioned this the other day. The woke Royal Navy had a quota of disabled admirals (one working arm, one working eye).
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125
    MikeL said:

    There seems to be a narrative that Trump is well ahead of Biden in the polls - but polls in the last few days don't really support that. Most recent polls:

    National:
    Zogby: Trump +1
    YouGov: Tie
    Rasmussen: Trump +8
    Ipsos: Tie

    Michigan:
    Target: Biden +4

    Nevada:
    Emerson: Trump +2

    Pennsylvania:
    Quinnipiac: Biden +3

    A mixed picture to some degree (as we would expect) - but overall they aren't that bad for Biden.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Looking over the last month they range from Trump +8 to Biden +4, I guess an average would show Trump in the middle of that range maybe +2. It's certainly not hopeless for Biden, but it's also not bad at all for Trump. Polls this far out aren't very predictive, and you can make arguments for Biden's position getting better in the future, but his approval ratings are terrible, while Trump's favourability ratings have improved.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,295
    edited January 13

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    It's Lord Nelson, who famously ended up with one eye and one hand.

    You can join Morris Dancer in remedial history class.
  • On topic, just be glad the Canada doesn't hold caucuses (or is it caucuci?)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    IanB2 said:

    A

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    Just to add another figure onto the scene:

    "Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

    Hindsight is wonderful, but if only they had scrapped Horizon back then.

    It almost happened. This is the PO internal report from the time:

    .
    So, when this was proven in action and all the prosecutions started, why didn't New Labour get suspicious and start to ask questions?
    One has to admire your unwavering valiant attempts to shift the blame for the PO Scandal onto 'anyone but the Tories'.

    Unfortunately, your comprehension skills seem to have deserted you over this one. To put it simply that document has no direct bearing on the PO Scandal.

    The concerns expressed in that document snippet are about ICL's ability to deliver the system. That it would have errors once delivered was, frankly, only to be expected.

    The PO Scandal arose not because a system was delivered with errors but because a mendacious, vindictive, defensive management viciously pursued the 'we cannot be wrong' line to the point where many innocent people's lives were ruined.

    Now, you may say that the 1997-2010 Labour government should have spotted that (and the the could be said for the administrations since) but that document does nothing to suggest The government of the time had evidence there was a fundamental problem with PO's management.
    To be exact, the problem was that the system was delivered with errors.

    Fujitsu and the PO covered it up, making the problem worse - turning it into the disaster we have now.
    There has never been a system of any size delivered without errors.

    It's the terrible way those problems with Horizon were handled that ruined the lives of so many.
    Horizon was staggeringly shit - apart from being unable to do transactions reliably, it had very little reconciliation and internal tracing. So it was nearly impossible to work out what it fucked up.

    It was a disaster before the lying scumbags started lying.
    Richard Rolls, former Fujitsu IT consultant, described it at the Inquiry as 'crap'.

    Even the barrister smiled.
    On 15 February 2001, the then competitiveness minister, Alan Johnson, told the Commons: “Horizon is not outdated technology. We are wiring up 40,000 serving positions at 18,500 post offices at a rate of 300 a week. It has been extremely successful … Number of post offices computerised under the previous government – nil. Number of post office computerised under this government so far – 17,560.”

    On 24 March 2004, the then secretary of state for trade and industry, Patricia Hewitt, said: “We decided that there was no point in rescuing that absurd out-of-date Conservative proposition for a benefit payment card. Instead, we invested the best part of £500m in the Horizon platform ... Thanks to the investment and the decisions that we have made, the Horizon platform and the automation of the post offices have now modernised post offices.”
    Given the problems the system suffered during development, I shudder to think what Johnson's definition of 'extremely successful' covers.

    "We killed many Norman invaders... the Battle of Hastings was extremely successful..."
  • I know monarchists will have me charged for treason for laughing at this slightly ambigious line in The Times.

    Queen Elizabeth ‘slipped away in her sleep’, note reveals

    New biography says King Charles had gone out to clear his head when he received the news that his mother had died...

    ...Charles received the news of his mother’s death when he went out to clear his head and was driving back to the castle after gathering mushrooms.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/royal-family-queen-elizabeth-death-balmoral-king-charles-98hznj596
  • Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.

    Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.

    In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.

    She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rachel-reeves-interview-fixed-mortgage-house-uk-zqtvbkgxn
  • Suella Braverman has warned Rishi Sunak that unless he toughens up his Rwanda bill she will vote against it next week.

    The former home secretary became the first Conservative MP to confirm that she would vote against the bill at its third reading, expected on Wednesday, if “no improvements” were offered.

    She is among more than 50 Tory MPs, including the former prime minister Liz Truss, who have backed a ­series of amendments that aim to close what they believe are loopholes in the legislation.

    In an interview with GB News on Friday, Braverman said the bill as it stands “doesn’t work” and urged the prime minister to “start again” to resurrect the legislation. She claimed that she had spoken to dozens of serving ministers who have “grave reservations” about the bill.

    The government faces defeat if 32 Tory MPs vote against it.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/suella-braverman-tory-vote-rwanda-bill-migration-plan-asylum-uk-pkk0zm0cw
  • kamski said:

    MikeL said:

    There seems to be a narrative that Trump is well ahead of Biden in the polls - but polls in the last few days don't really support that. Most recent polls:

    National:
    Zogby: Trump +1
    YouGov: Tie
    Rasmussen: Trump +8
    Ipsos: Tie

    Michigan:
    Target: Biden +4

    Nevada:
    Emerson: Trump +2

    Pennsylvania:
    Quinnipiac: Biden +3

    A mixed picture to some degree (as we would expect) - but overall they aren't that bad for Biden.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Looking over the last month they range from Trump +8 to Biden +4, I guess an average would show Trump in the middle of that range maybe +2. It's certainly not hopeless for Biden, but it's also not bad at all for Trump. Polls this far out aren't very predictive, and you can make arguments for Biden's position getting better in the future, but his approval ratings are terrible, while Trump's favourability ratings have improved.
    I pointed out to Leon the other day at this point in the cycle, Biden is doing better than Obama in 2012 and Trump is doing worse than Romney.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,768
    kamski said:

    MikeL said:

    There seems to be a narrative that Trump is well ahead of Biden in the polls - but polls in the last few days don't really support that. Most recent polls:

    National:
    Zogby: Trump +1
    YouGov: Tie
    Rasmussen: Trump +8
    Ipsos: Tie

    Michigan:
    Target: Biden +4

    Nevada:
    Emerson: Trump +2

    Pennsylvania:
    Quinnipiac: Biden +3

    A mixed picture to some degree (as we would expect) - but overall they aren't that bad for Biden.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Looking over the last month they range from Trump +8 to Biden +4, I guess an average would show Trump in the middle of that range maybe +2. It's certainly not hopeless for Biden, but it's also not bad at all for Trump. Polls this far out aren't very predictive, and you can make arguments for Biden's position getting better in the future, but his approval ratings are terrible, while Trump's favourability ratings have improved.
    One would hope that the Trump column includes a degree of protest vote - people telling the pollster ‘Trump’ as a protest that won’t come good on the day, as with any opposition figure before the campaign gets going. Campaigns bring things into relief as the respective alternatives get compared side by side.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,570
    edited January 13

    Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.

    Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.

    In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.

    She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rachel-reeves-interview-fixed-mortgage-house-uk-zqtvbkgxn

    I had a floating rate mortgage in the late 90s. It floated upwards so I fixed it just before 9/11 cratered interest rates.

    ETA this proposal looks like more creeping Americanism, just as with New Labour.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    It's Lord Nelson, who famously ended up with one eye and one hand.

    You can join Morris Dancer in remedial history class.
    It's a little known fact that the big column in Trafalgar Square actually commemorates him:
    image
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    It's Lord Nelson, who famously ended up with one eye and one hand.

    You can join Morris Dancer in remedial history class.
    Wasn’t he also questioning about his sexuality? I seem to recall some story about his kissing a man…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    I have a weird and tremendous foreboding
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,295
    edited January 13
    Leon said:

    I have a weird and tremendous foreboding

    Have you eaten a dog again?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,188
    ...
    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sunak looks overwhelmed by the job to me.

    Only the very greatest are not found out by the very top job.

    ...
    Eh?

    Is this Napoleon?

    He had two hands.

    It's Lord Nelson, who famously ended up with one eye and one hand.

    You can join Morris Dancer in remedial history class.
    It's a little known fact that the big column in Trafalgar Square actually commemorates him:
    image
    Who, Morris Dancer?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.

    Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.

    In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.

    She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rachel-reeves-interview-fixed-mortgage-house-uk-zqtvbkgxn

    I had a floating rate mortgage in the late 90s. It floated upwards so I fixed it just before 9/11 cratered interest rates.

    ETA this proposal looks like more creeping Americanism, just as with New Labour.

    Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.

    Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.

    In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.

    She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rachel-reeves-interview-fixed-mortgage-house-uk-zqtvbkgxn

    I had a floating rate mortgage in the late 90s. It floated upwards so I fixed it just before 9/11 cratered interest rates.

    ETA this proposal looks like more creeping Americanism, just as with New Labour.
    It’s not “late 90s”. It’s “the really late 1900s”

    I’ve just read a surprisingly excellent picture-book history of the great colonial hotels “east of Suez”. My God the British Empire was amazing. So impressively BIG

    However the book (written by a young Chinese American I think) uses exactly this irritating formulation. 1800s = 19th century. So you’re constantly having to check exactly “when” he means
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Leon said:

    I have a weird and tremendous foreboding

    Have you picked up the Threads of previous conversations?
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 858
    edited January 13
    This is possibly the fastest count I've seen anywhere, first vote counts started appearing about 4 minutes after polls closed, counted at polling stations, live here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p8gVlJLmnw

    Looks like about 300K votes counted in 15 mins if I'm following this correctly :smiley:

    Going to stick my neck out and call this for the DPP now - consistent lead already of 20K+, so let's see if I'm right and this holds.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well this thread is fun ....

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1745920610893434993?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA

    It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.

    Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.

    'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064
    What Post Minister signed that off?
    Hmmmmmm ... a good point!

    'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.

    Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.

    Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'

    If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Leon said:

    I have a weird and tremendous foreboding

    Have you eaten a dog again?
    No, I’m sitting by the pool at Raffles (Phnom Penh) considering having a gin sling

    It may simply be the overly spicy but delicious Pho I consumed last night. Touch of the Cochin Collywobbles

    However I got this sudden flash of apprehensive horror. Something even worse than Covid is coming down the line. This decade. The 2020s are not done with us yet

    Maybe I should have that gin sling

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Leon said:

    I have a weird and tremendous foreboding

    Have you eaten a dog again?
    XL bully beef.
This discussion has been closed.