It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
1) Defibrillator stolen from Police Scotland divisional headquarters in Edinburgh 2) Takes 2 months for cops to investigate a theft from their own shop 3) CCTV at HQ is potato quality
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
No, I’m sitting by the pool at Raffles (Phnom Penh) considering having a gin sling
It may simply be the overly spicy but delicious Pho I consumed last night. Touch of the Cochin Collywobbles
However I got this sudden flash of apprehensive horror. Something even worse than Covid is coming down the line. This decade. The 2020s are not done with us yet
Maybe I should have that gin sling
Did you have to rough it with the noodle soup because your allowance didn't run to a Lok Lak?
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
For me it was getting to Vladivostok. Growing up in tedious provincial England felt like a jail. A nice enough jail - but a jail. I would pore over atlases and dream of exotic escape - and Vladivostok captured all of that. The name alone was so foreign and poetic
Finally made it there around my 30th birthday. Vladivostok!!
Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.
Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.
In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.
She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.
That surely should be a business decision for the lenders, rather than one for government.
Already interest rate changes are a poor tool for controlling inflation with 80% on some form of fixed rate, building months or years of lag into their effects. Further breaking the only tool in the box seems a little rash.
1) Defibrillator stolen from Police Scotland divisional headquarters in Edinburgh 2) Takes 2 months for cops to investigate a theft from their own shop 3) CCTV at HQ is potato quality
TRIGGER WARNING FOR LEON - THIS POST MENTIONS NEWENT.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
There were, or at least there were fifteen years ago, their author remembers vaguely. I think relatively tightly drawn in relation to conduct. And before the separation of the businesses, after which, no idea.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
For me it was getting to Vladivostok. Growing up in tedious provincial England felt like a jail. A nice enough jail - but a jail. I would pore over atlases and dream of exotic escape - and Vladivostok captured all of that. The name alone was so foreign and poetic
Finally made it there around my 30th birthday. Vladivostok!!
Central heating. Grew up in houses that were always cold and damp. I was 26 before I finally lived in a house with central heating.
This may seem very prosaic. I did lots of travelling as a child so this was normal not exotic for me.
But being warm in a house - boy, was that a treat when it finally arrived!
(Snip) What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
(snip)
Not sure if this counts, but after years of pain, and of being told I might never walk properly again, completing the Pennine Way, 15 months after my last operation.
(Snip) What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
(snip)
Not sure if this counts, but after years of pain, and of being told I might never walk properly again, completing the Pennine Way, 15 months after my last operation.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
Marina Hyde has an interesting quote from Alan Bates in her column today:
"Interviewed by the Times last weekend at home in Colwyn Bay, Bates assured the paper that it didn’t matter he’d never been paid for his work, on top of having had his business destroyed by the Post Office, because “you don’t need a ridiculous amount of money” in life."
It's not about Ice cube dispensers, it it about life lived well, and that is all about values not valuables.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
You sure this all wasn't due to Starmer being DPP in 2013?
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
Marina Hyde has an interesting quote from Alan Bates in her column today:
"Interviewed by the Times last weekend at home in Colwyn Bay, Bates assured the paper that it didn’t matter he’d never been paid for his work, on top of having had his business destroyed by the Post Office, because “you don’t need a ridiculous amount of money” in life."
It's not about Ice cube dispensers, it it about life lived well, and that is all about values not valuables.
What a great attitude; we should put Alan Bates in No 10.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
And a bodged privatisation of armed forces recruitment, bodged privatisation of military housing affecting retention etc etc.
That's where the money has gone in Broken Britain. I really don't think either party grasps the importance of public service as a core part of what we are as a nation.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
Weird that it didn't make the HIGNFY list of possible future Toby Jones docu-dramas...
ITV have an unrivalled opportunity to really ruffle some feathers
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
Marina Hyde has an interesting quote from Alan Bates in her column today:
"Interviewed by the Times last weekend at home in Colwyn Bay, Bates assured the paper that it didn’t matter he’d never been paid for his work, on top of having had his business destroyed by the Post Office, because “you don’t need a ridiculous amount of money” in life."
It's not about Ice cube dispensers, it it about life lived well, and that is all about values not valuables.
This is hardly the Wisdom of Confucius. It’s obvious to anyone over 25 with a brain (tho it is worth repeating). No one ever died thinking “oh I wish I’d had a bigger TV”. People die regretting missed experiences - family, friends, travel, creativity
(Snip) What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
(snip)
Not sure if this counts, but after years of pain, and of being told I might never walk properly again, completing the Pennine Way, 15 months after my last operation.
Bravo
For me it was re-building my life, and indeed having a great life, after suffering a catastrophic accident when I was 19.
There's barely a day goes by when I don't reflect on that. It was only made possible by living in a first class developed country since WW2.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
Weird that it didn't make the HIGNFY list of possible future Toby Jones docu-dramas...
ITV have an unrivalled opportunity to really ruffle some feathers
There have been some searing dramas about the grooming scandal. But they haven’t had the impact of “Mr Bates” for the reasons adduced. The whole thing is too painful and difficult
It reminds me a bit of Damien Hirst’s formaldehyde shark, entitled: “the impossibility of death in the mind of someone living”
(Snip) What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
(snip)
Not sure if this counts, but after years of pain, and of being told I might never walk properly again, completing the Pennine Way, 15 months after my last operation.
Bravo
For me it was re-building my life, and indeed having a great life, after suffering a catastrophic accident when I was 19.
There's barely a day goes by when I don't reflect on that. It was only made possible by living in a first class developed country since WW2.
Likewise: bravo
I sometimes think about what happened to you. An unspeakable awfulness. Well done on living a great life thereafter. I can only imagine your thoughts as a very young man, age 20, staring at the future
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
Who would they get to play gotch eyed hero of the tale Nick Griffin?
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
Who would they get to play gotch eyed hero of the tale Nick Griffin?
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
A caretaker would actually have done better at OFSTED than Spielman. At least they'd have had safeguarding training.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
You sure this all wasn't due to Starmer being DPP in 2013?
Maybe the donkeys? I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories try to blame them. Look forward to the aforesaid equines popping up here yet again.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
That's why it's reasonated.
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
You sure this all wasn't due to Starmer being DPP in 2013?
Maybe the donkeys? I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories try to blame them. Look forward to the aforesaid equines popping up here yet again.
Plenty of people made assumptions about Horizon, and assume makes an ass of u and me.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
I was thinking biggest corporate scandal. Though in money terms the RBS one is worse than this. Yes you're right that the child abuse scandals are much worse. But it's not just about Asian grooming gangs, as you well know.
Edited: I've just remembered that the worst criminal fraud case in the U.K. - £1.5 billion - was the one I worked on, back in 2011/12. Then LIBOR - worked on that as well: and the FX ones - ditto.
No, I’m sitting by the pool at Raffles (Phnom Penh) considering having a gin sling
It may simply be the overly spicy but delicious Pho I consumed last night. Touch of the Cochin Collywobbles
However I got this sudden flash of apprehensive horror. Something even worse than Covid is coming down the line. This decade. The 2020s are not done with us yet
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
A family in a nice detached house in nice area that I can send to nice schools. I always read about those with a family "wife and two kids" on CVs, and never thought I'd be established until I had the same.
I achieved that, progressively, from 2017 through to 2022.
It's now about me trying to make a difference, both professionally and in the charitable sector, whilst making sure I still put family first at all times.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Made my morning, Doc!
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
With the Post Office defendants having to argue that, no, the prosecution couldn't possibly rely on anything in the Post Office's published accounts or other records because the accounting system was wrong, unreliable, not to be trusted, has gazillions of glitches etc.,.
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
No. No no no. The biggest scandal is the Asian grooming scandal. I know people don’t like to talk about it and it makes everyone uncomfortable - but it is the case. 100,000 underage girls raped over decades
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
Weird that it didn't make the HIGNFY list of possible future Toby Jones docu-dramas...
ITV have an unrivalled opportunity to really ruffle some feathers
There have been some searing dramas about the grooming scandal. But they haven’t had the impact of “Mr Bates” for the reasons adduced. The whole thing is too painful and difficult
It reminds me a bit of Damien Hirst’s formaldehyde shark, entitled: “the impossibility of death in the mind of someone living”
Gwyneth Hughes, the writer of Mr Bates did do a very good drama about an Asian honour killing that happened here - "Honour".
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
That's why it's reasonated.
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
It epitomises a sense a lot of us have - that we're being - and have been for a while - taken for mugs by the more powerful than us, whether its companies, governments, faceless bureaucrats and so on, that public service seems to have turned into little more than looting combined with insensitive bullying and that no-one ever says sorry properly and takes responsibility.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
A couple of background issues here, which one day will be a scandal. Firstly, how it is that stuff which a single man accountant doing tax returns for little old ladies over a flower shop would spot in moments is utterly opaque to the accountants and, more importantly auditors, of the PO.
Secondly, the back street one man garage in Scunthorpe who struggles to do VAT/tax returns on time, it seems to me, is treated with a heavier hand by the HMRC than smooth operators who owe it £100,000,000.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
Marina Hyde has an interesting quote from Alan Bates in her column today:
"Interviewed by the Times last weekend at home in Colwyn Bay, Bates assured the paper that it didn’t matter he’d never been paid for his work, on top of having had his business destroyed by the Post Office, because “you don’t need a ridiculous amount of money” in life."
It's not about Ice cube dispensers, it it about life lived well, and that is all about values not valuables.
This is hardly the Wisdom of Confucius. It’s obvious to anyone over 25 with a brain (tho it is worth repeating). No one ever died thinking “oh I wish I’d had a bigger TV”. People die regretting missed experiences - family, friends, travel, creativity
It may not be the wisdom of Confucius, but Jesus went to the trouble of telling a whole parable about the folly of a farmer who kept building bigger barns because this next one would be enough, honest. The trap of "twenty percent more wealth will be enough" is blooming hard to avoid, with the consequences we see around us.
It's not entirely Rishi's fault, and he could have made even more millions with less hassle by staying in the world of finance. But his CV is emblematic of what we don't want, and yet he's become PM.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
A couple of background issues here, which one day will be a scandal. Firstly, how it is that stuff which a single man accountant doing tax returns for little old ladies over a flower shop would spot in moments is utterly opaque to the accountants and, more importantly auditors, of the PO.
Secondly, the back street one man garage in Scunthorpe who struggles to do VAT/tax returns on time, it seems to me, is treated with a heavier hand by the HMRC than smooth operators who owe it £100,000,000.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
That's why it's reasonated.
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
The husband of one of the jailed postmasters (mistresses?) was on R4 this morning recounting how he was beaten up three times after a 'pregnant thief jailed' headline in the local paper. I feel it's very much swings and roundabouts on the fundamental decent British sense of fair play front.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
That's why it's reasonated.
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
The husband of one of the jailed postmasters (mistresses?) was on R4 this morning recounting how he was beaten up three times after a 'pregnant thief jailed' headline in the local paper. I feel it's very much swings and roundabouts on the fundamental decent British sense of fair play front.
Also rather lacking on PB of late. Notably a rather partisan rush to blame Mr Davey and SKS for everything right down to the exact shade of beige used for the wpbs (PO staff for the use of).
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
A family in a nice detached house in nice area that I can send to nice schools. I always read about those with a family "wife and two kids" on CVs, and never thought I'd be established until I had the same.
I achieved that, progressively, from 2017 through to 2022.
It's now about me trying to make a difference, both professionally and in the charitable sector, whilst making sure I still put family first at all times.
I remember being awe struck when I saw the explorers use pop up tents in the forgotten 1995 masterpiece Congo, about killer gorillas starring Tim Currie and Ernie Hudson. What a glorious day of life it was, when I brought my own home from Argos some years later before my first music festival. Until I had to put it down again that is.
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
Looks more like it's in deep shit rather than in de Nile.
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
No, I’m sitting by the pool at Raffles (Phnom Penh) considering having a gin sling
It may simply be the overly spicy but delicious Pho I consumed last night. Touch of the Cochin Collywobbles
However I got this sudden flash of apprehensive horror. Something even worse than Covid is coming down the line. This decade. The 2020s are not done with us yet
Maybe I should have that gin sling
It’s what was discussed in a SCIF yesterday between 16 congresspeople and the Intelligence Community Inspector General innit. Confirmation that US citizens have come to harm trying to expose a secret that we’re not supposed to talk about here. Not as rock n roll as a post office computer scandal I grant you.
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
For me it was getting to Vladivostok. Growing up in tedious provincial England felt like a jail. A nice enough jail - but a jail. I would pore over atlases and dream of exotic escape - and Vladivostok captured all of that. The name alone was so foreign and poetic
Finally made it there around my 30th birthday. Vladivostok!!
Central heating. Grew up in houses that were always cold and damp. I was 26 before I finally lived in a house with central heating.
This may seem very prosaic. I did lots of travelling as a child so this was normal not exotic for me.
But being warm in a house - boy, was that a treat when it finally arrived!
Being consistently warm, dry, and well fed, is an underrated triumph of modern times, shared by higher proportions of people than ever.
I know it doesn't make complaints at bad things unreasonable but I do try to be grateful about it if I go too far into 'woe is us' territory.
Even now I'm a bit late to put on the heating, growing up without it (we could not afford to fix it) makes it seem extravagant luxury.
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
For me it was getting to Vladivostok. Growing up in tedious provincial England felt like a jail. A nice enough jail - but a jail. I would pore over atlases and dream of exotic escape - and Vladivostok captured all of that. The name alone was so foreign and poetic
Finally made it there around my 30th birthday. Vladivostok!!
Mine was when I was 20 and a stagiare on the Systeme U team. I was Marc Madiot's stand-in dom and this was an extremely big deal as Marc, was at the time, French Road Race champion and had won L'Enfer du Nord and the GP Wallonie the previous year.
We did a very brutal training ride on the Col de la Madone where I had had a massive crash on the descent, but remounted and dragged the champ all the the way to finish. I was covered in blood, shaking uncontrollably and vomiting into a convenient bin when Marc said the to DS, Ce mec, il sait souffrir. (This guy knows how to suffer.) No higher praise for an aspirant flahute.
That's when I knew I had it in me to be a pro cyclist at the highest level but I let my dad talk me out of going pro. In those days, it was a short and very poorly paid career but I will always believe I was good enough because of Marc's words.
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
Looks more like it's in deep shit rather than in de Nile.
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
We have a very nice and nicely run Post Office here - always busy and the only place we can do any sort of banking transaction - as well as much else besides. I think the basic business can and should survive but the cretins on top need to go (as well as the malicious cretins further down the food chain) and people brought in who can run it well as a proper public service.
I am, of course, assuming that there are such people left in Britain. I do wonder, sometimes.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
At this rate, Rishi is going to have to declare a bank holiday for the day that Paula Vennells gives evidence to the Horizon Inquiry.
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
BTW this is not some vague attempt to smear Starmer. I just wonder how this can possibly be appropriate given what the Post Office and some of its past and maybe present staff may be facing in the near future.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Difficult to see how it would - the Lib Dems are more or less where they have been stuck for the past decade - core vote post-coalition plus the small number of staunch pro-Europeans for whom Labour's need to compromise with the electorate is annoying, and those who are anti-Tory in places where Labour just doesn't really exist.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
At this rate, Rishi is going to have to declare a bank holiday for the day that Paula Vennells gives evidence to the Horizon Inquiry.
Day? It'll be a week long holiday. Possibly even a fortnight.
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
Looks more like it's in deep shit rather than in de Nile.
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
We have a very nice and nicely run Post Office here - always busy and the only place we can do any sort of banking transaction - as well as much else besides. I think the basic business can and should survive but the cretins on top need to go (as well as the malicious cretins further down the food chain) and people brought in who can run it well as a proper public service.
I am, of course, assuming that there are such people left in Britain. I do wonder, sometimes.
Sadly my local post office is staffed by people so surly and lethargic that if they go under I suspect the only place they'd be able to find work is answering the phones at a GP's surgery.
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
Looks more like it's in deep shit rather than in de Nile.
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
On that general subject, in a small town in the far north of England every bank branch has closed, but the local building society is still there, the only bank-like operation still open. (It has branches in even smaller communities too). It is always busy, there is usually a queue, and this is notably of all ages and backgrounds.
If I wanted to talk to one of the senior managers of the whole outfit I will find him in his garden in a local village.
This may of course be the last sigh of a departing relic, but it doesn't feel like it. The local larger town (population 100,000) has several such building societies.
Not a single building society which became a bank survives as an independent entity.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Stamping your authority doesn’t usually mean going down 2 points.
Early 2024 is though showing largely oscillation within the electoral blocs - the Refuk surge seems to have abated, but with them remaining at fairly high levels. This poll is LLG:RefCon 61: 34.
Notable no Refuk appearances in council by-elections recently. This suggests they have practically zero ground game.
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
I honestly think that a lot of PO employees still think the SPMs were at it. There's a danger that the Great British Public will now go to the opposite extreme and conclude that everyone working for the PO is a crook.
That's going to make it difficult for them get a fair trial when the time comes.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Difficult to see how it would - the Lib Dems are more or less where they have been stuck for the past decade - core vote post-coalition plus the small number of staunch pro-Europeans for whom Labour's need to compromise with the electorate is annoying, and those who are anti-Tory in places where Labour just doesn't really exist.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
When they couldn't even capitalise on the Corbyn era, not even regaining second place in much of the rural South, in begs the question if they will be able to restore their early 2000 fortunes for a generation more.
If 2024 is disappointing there's little prospect of that.
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
Looks more like it's in deep shit rather than in de Nile.
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
We have a very nice and nicely run Post Office here - always busy and the only place we can do any sort of banking transaction - as well as much else besides. I think the basic business can and should survive but the cretins on top need to go (as well as the malicious cretins further down the food chain) and people brought in who can run it well as a proper public service.
I am, of course, assuming that there are such people left in Britain. I do wonder, sometimes.
There have to be, partly because so many of the people I live around are like that.
Trouble is that, because they're decent people, they don't get to define the (un)reality. The gits, chancers and shysters do that because they're so much more aggressive in climbing the greasy pole and telling everyone else How It Is.
There's a lot to be said for being innocent as doves. But unless you're also as wise as a serpent (and, critically, prepared to use that wisdom), you end up living in a world run by actual snakes.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Difficult to see how it would - the Lib Dems are more or less where they have been stuck for the past decade - core vote post-coalition plus the small number of staunch pro-Europeans for whom Labour's need to compromise with the electorate is annoying, and those who are anti-Tory in places where Labour just doesn't really exist.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
The tories will squeeze that RefUK 11% with a mental culture wars campaign in a GE though and No More Mr Tice Guy will have zero fucking clue how to counter it. I think Ticey might win in Hartlepool though based on the size of the turquoise Mogamma that is their office in that shithole.
Thursday's Question Time departed with the usual practice of an audience divided proportonately between activists from the political parties, and went out and got an audience entirely of undecided voters. And it's worth a listen for a hugely more measured and thoughtful discussion.
Right. Time for a swim. Hopefully it will dispel this weird sense that Something Wicked This Way Comes
Might just be Cambodia. Much as it clutches to hedonism to run away from its recent history, it's still there. Lurking. Some weird primeval evil crawled out the ground and destroyed its society. It was inexplicable; and that makes it so difficult to believe it has really been expunged.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
At this rate, Rishi is going to have to declare a bank holiday for the day that Paula Vennells gives evidence to the Horizon Inquiry.
Day? It'll be a week long holiday. Possibly even a fortnight.
Hasn't Paula got "my name is Sharon Shoesmith" tattooed on her forehead?
Yes she is completely inept and well out of her depth, nonetheless I fear she is the fall guy for the politicians. After all Ed and Starmer have come out fighting, and Kemi can't even be bothered with what she seems to consider the whole dreary affair.
Surely anyone who is prosecuted for the post office scandal will argue it will be impossible for them to get a fair trial. Whether that washes, I don’t know, but they’re bound to try it.
Why would they be able to argue that, any more than - for example - someone who is charged with committing a murder that has excited widespread outrage?
They can't. This is always brought up every time there is a crime which is in the news and it never happens. First, there will be no prosecutions until the Inquiry is done. Then the police and CPS will need to review all the evidence which has come out of the Inquiry and may also need to interview others. So I doubt there will be prosecutions this year. Next year maybe. If they didn't happen until 2026 I would not be surprised.
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
The PO Scandal has finally caught the zeitgeist, despite many of us knowing about it for years. In my case it was from Private Eye that I found the story a decade or so ago.
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
That's why it's reasonated.
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
The husband of one of the jailed postmasters (mistresses?) was on R4 this morning recounting how he was beaten up three times after a 'pregnant thief jailed' headline in the local paper. I feel it's very much swings and roundabouts on the fundamental decent British sense of fair play front.
Also rather lacking on PB of late. Notably a rather partisan rush to blame Mr Davey and SKS for everything right down to the exact shade of beige used for the wpbs (PO staff for the use of).
What I hadn't realised until recently was that Ed Davey's brother, Henry, was a partner at Herbert Smith, specialising in the energy sector. Ed Davey was of course Energy Minister. That probably explains the latter's consultancy work with the firm, rather than some conspiracy to attack the subpostmasters.
Whether it is any better to have this rewarding carousel for Ministers and others is another matter.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Difficult to see how it would - the Lib Dems are more or less where they have been stuck for the past decade - core vote post-coalition plus the small number of staunch pro-Europeans for whom Labour's need to compromise with the electorate is annoying, and those who are anti-Tory in places where Labour just doesn't really exist.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
The tories will squeeze that RefUK 11% with a mental culture wars campaign in a GE though and No More Mr Tice Guy will have zero fucking clue how to counter it. I think Ticey might win in Hartlepool though based on the size of the turquoise Mogamma that is their office in that shithole.
Didn’t he already try there? Wrong type of personality to appeal to Hartlepudlians.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
I’ve got an idea.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2) 🔵 Con 23% (-2) 🟠 LD 11% (+2) ⚪ Ref 11% (+1) 🟢 Green 5% (NC) 🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
Difficult to see how it would - the Lib Dems are more or less where they have been stuck for the past decade - core vote post-coalition plus the small number of staunch pro-Europeans for whom Labour's need to compromise with the electorate is annoying, and those who are anti-Tory in places where Labour just doesn't really exist.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
The reality is that Davey is a long way down the list of culprits, and although he has some legitimate questions to answer they pale into insignifance in the broader picture.
He should be ok, and it's not as if the other two Parties have a whole lot to be smug about.
Right. Time for a swim. Hopefully it will dispel this weird sense that Something Wicked This Way Comes
Might just be Cambodia. Much as it clutches to hedonism to run away from its recent history, it's still there. Lurking. Some weird primeval evil crawled out the ground and destroyed its society. It was inexplicable; and that makes it so difficult to believe it has really been expunged.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
If Club Tropicana drinks are free, we shall never hear from Leon again.
I'm a great believer in the positive and negative power of corporate culture. Any organisation - especially large and long-established ones - have a corporate culture within them. These are often set by the founder(s), and can take years to change as long-serving staff are understandably resistant to change.
Corporate cultures can be positive for the organisation, or can be negative. Because of the resistance to change, negative cultures (or aspects of culture) can take years to turn around.
The Post Office, at top level, not postmasters, appears to have a rotten corporate culture. I fear it's not just the top bods who need to change, but many people within the organisation.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Could share a cell with the ghost of Al Capone for tax evasion.
Interesting little snippet from the Post Office Board:
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
Lol!
Did I hear someone say NU10K?
Did someone say Risk?
Before 2008, in banks, Risk was the graveyard for careers.
Knew one head of Risk who had been shoved there to end his career. Had warned the board that things were getting… risky in 2006.
When the music stopped, boy did he get himself some of that revenge….
Anyway I just mentioned the info about the director of the PO being on the Board of the CPS to husband and his response was:
"Don't they have enough of these duffers to go round? Do they have to do double duffer duty?"
I mean, that's the icing on the cake, isn't it - we're running out of duffers.
(Husband shares @Dura_Ace's view that now would be a good time to buy a PO Branch, Take The Money and Run. That's his politer and printable view, anyway.)
Right. Time for a swim. Hopefully it will dispel this weird sense that Something Wicked This Way Comes
Might just be Cambodia. Much as it clutches to hedonism to run away from its recent history, it's still there. Lurking. Some weird primeval evil crawled out the ground and destroyed its society. It was inexplicable; and that makes it so difficult to believe it has really been expunged.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
It's still a dark place politically. A corrupt oligarchy in hock to Chinese interests, with opposition parties banned.
Anyway I just mentioned the info about the director of the PO being on the Board of the CPS and his response was:
"Don't they have enough of these duffers to go round? Do they have to do double duffer duty?"
I mean, that's the icing on the cake, isn't it - we're running out of duffers.
People talk a lot here about MPs having two jobs, but it seems to me a far bigger issue is this Directorship merry-go-round where people have 4-8 jobs and are Directors for each.
If Directors were forbidden to get compensation from any other firm apart from their own, one job alone, then the quality of governance of firms in this country would need to change remarkably.
Might actually get some Directors who take their responsibilities seriously. Or maybe still not.
Right. Time for a swim. Hopefully it will dispel this weird sense that Something Wicked This Way Comes
Might just be Cambodia. Much as it clutches to hedonism to run away from its recent history, it's still there. Lurking. Some weird primeval evil crawled out the ground and destroyed its society. It was inexplicable; and that makes it so difficult to believe it has really been expunged.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
That’s a REALLY good point
Perhaps it is that. I am slightly obsessed with the Khmer Rouge because in some ways it seems the purest example of human evil - even worse than the Nazis. And all done in this idyllic tropical backwater
And I’m still uncovering horrors. I had no idea they killed nearly all the trained medical staff, for instance. Doctors, nurses, the lot. “Bourgeois”. Western medicine was rejected
All these people were replaced by young illiterate teenage kids from the rice farms. 13 year old doctors who couldn’t read the labels on pills. Not that they had many pills. Most sick people were condemned as fakers with western tendencies, those that got some treatment were given “pills” made out of tree bark. Known as “rabbit droppings”
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
I’ve got an idea.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
Why would you do that?
What about ThePhones4U fellow? He has indicated he might switch and fund the Labour Party. Throw this as a sweetener and who knows he might be back on side? He has the experience, he lives near Stoke and he used to sell telephones, so did the GPO, so he has the Post Office experience really.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
The difficulty is that I bet the Post Office did not think of these payments or any part of them - or describe them internally as - repayment of monies owed. That would have meant accepting that they were never due, with all the civil and criminal legal consequences that flow from that. Plus I doubt that they kept an accurate record. So they're stuffed.
There would be a certain irony if after all of this, the actual charge brought against the Post Office’s managers was one of false accounting.
Could share a cell with the ghost of Al Capone for tax evasion.
Or Donald Trump.
(Is the PO management deserving of *that* severe a punishment though?)
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
I’ve got an idea.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
Arbuthnot himself put up for Chairman last time around, but the government wasn't brave enough
Just imagine if you had locked yourself into a 25 year fixed mortgage in late 2006.
Rachel Reeves has pledged that Labour will oversee a “revolution” in home ownership by opening the door to 25-year fixed-rate mortgages for millions of people.
In an interview with The Times before a trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, the shadow chancellor said that longer fixed-rate deals would enable people to buy houses with smaller deposits and with lower monthly repayments.
She has asked a Labour review of financial services, which is being run by a group of City grandees, to work with the mortgage industry to find ways to remove regulatory barriers and help trigger a broader cultural shift.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
'The largest determinant of bosses' pay is a measure the Post Office calls "trading profit", which excludes the money set aside to compensate scandal victims, thereby increasing the pay of executives.
Chief executive Nick Read received a salary of £436,000 in the year ended 2022, plus a bonus of £137,000, as the Post Office was deemed to have recorded an above target trading profit if compensation provisions were ignored.
Mr Neidle said: "Bonuses have been paid to the executive team based on an apparent level of profitability which does not exist. If a public company missed an obvious tax point that made the business insolvent the shareholders would be demanding the CFO and CEOs head on a platter".'
If that's for the FY2021-2022, then it sure wasn't Mr Davey who signed it off. But someone wearing a big blue rosette. In (presumably) fairly full knowledge of the situation more generally.
A couple of background issues here, which one day will be a scandal. Firstly, how it is that stuff which a single man accountant doing tax returns for little old ladies over a flower shop would spot in moments is utterly opaque to the accountants and, more importantly auditors, of the PO.
Secondly, the back street one man garage in Scunthorpe who struggles to do VAT/tax returns on time, it seems to me, is treated with a heavier hand by the HMRC than smooth operators who owe it £100,000,000.
I'm a great believer in the positive and negative power of corporate culture. Any organisation - especially large and long-established ones - have a corporate culture within them. These are often set by the founder(s), and can take years to change as long-serving staff are understandably resistant to change.
Corporate cultures can be positive for the organisation, or can be negative. Because of the resistance to change, negative cultures (or aspects of culture) can take years to turn around.
The Post Office, at top level, not postmasters, appears to have a rotten corporate culture. I fear it's not just the top bods who need to change, but many people within the organisation.
Yup: culture beats strategy hands down.
You start with change at the top and you keep going until you hit the layer you need, the one that is worthwhile and then you make them feel - through reward and praise - that they are doing the right thing by doing the right thing. It takes time and hard work and persistence. It can be done. But only if you first realise it needs to be done. The PO has not even got to that point yet.
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
I’ve got an idea.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
Arbuthnot himself put up for Chairman last time around, but the government wasn't brave enough
Right. Time for a swim. Hopefully it will dispel this weird sense that Something Wicked This Way Comes
Might just be Cambodia. Much as it clutches to hedonism to run away from its recent history, it's still there. Lurking. Some weird primeval evil crawled out the ground and destroyed its society. It was inexplicable; and that makes it so difficult to believe it has really been expunged.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
That’s a REALLY good point
Perhaps it is that. I am slightly obsessed with the Khmer Rouge ....
Anyway I just mentioned the info about the director of the PO being on the Board of the CPS and his response was:
"Don't they have enough of these duffers to go round? Do they have to do double duffer duty?"
I mean, that's the icing on the cake, isn't it - we're running out of duffers.
People talk a lot here about MPs having two jobs, but it seems to me a far bigger issue is this Directorship merry-go-round where people have 4-8 jobs and are Directors for each.
If Directors were forbidden to get compensation from any other firm apart from their own, one job alone, then the quality of governance of firms in this country would need to change remarkably.
Might actually get some Directors who take their responsibilities seriously. Or maybe still not.
If the Executive Director carousel didn't exist how would we grow the salaries and bonuses of Captains of Industry?
It looks as if the Post Office has been claiming the compensation payments made to subpostmasters as tax deductible expenses. HMRC disagrees and is arguing that the PO needs to pony up ca. £100 m in tax.
Of course this is one bit of the government paying money to another bit. But still - delightful to see a body prosecuting others for false accounting not being able to get its tax affairs in order.
'While the Post Office appears to have deducted compensation provisions from their taxable profits, it apparently ignored them when it came to calculating executive pay.'
Their entire accounts for the past 20 years are going to have to be rewritten, aren't they.
The whole thing will probably be worth about £3.16 by the end and the whole shebang can be bought with loose change when going to your local branch to buy some balloons, sellotape and a birthday card for a friend's 3 year old.
Bagsy first in the queue: I will enjoy sacking everyone.
I just read this bit of news and my eyes were out on stalks. It is an absolutely bog standard tax principle that compensation payments of this kind are not a deductible expense. You don't get tax relief for breaking the law. Any High Street accountant could tell you that. What were they thinking? How did the auditors not point it out to them?
As for bonuses based on pre-compensation payents, they're 'aving a larf, surely? The way they've performed,they should be paying us, not the other way round.
I should say the PO must be technically insolvent as of now. There is no way it is going to be able meet its liabilities when they are all totted up. Of course that means the bill will be passed on to me and thee, but hopefully we will get some say in the matter of retribution. I'd go for garotting of those responsible, starting with the Board and working my way down.
Others, Ms Cyclefree, might want something a bit harsher, but I'm a tolerant soul.
The whole problem is they were not thinking. Not capable of it, you see.
The argument they could use is the same one Bates uses - that the payments are (significantly) reimbursement. The original shortfalls were made good by the SPMRs and generated taxable income that added to the bottom line. Hence reversing this out should be deductible.
Of course, this won’t, and shouldn’t, fly. But it’s a way of looking at it.
To the extent that it is returning what was never theirs in the first place I think that is ok. The accounts really ought to be rewritten but then since this is a Government owned company it wouldn't make sense to be too particular about it. The real problem is that the PO doesn't know the figures. It probably lost track of them years ago, if indeed it ever had track. (The whole organisation seems utterly shambolic so that would hardly be surprising.)
The punitive element, which one assumes now will be large, has got no chance of getting past HMRC, public body or not.
Frankly you have to question whether it is still a going concern in the normal sense. Caretaker administration beckons?
I really don't know. The whole bloody mess keeps getting worse.
On your point
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
Why not an actual caretaker? They could hardly do any worse.
I’ve got an idea.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
Arbuthnot himself put up for Chairman last time around, but the government wasn't brave enough
Didn't even put him on the shortlist.
tbf having been a barrister and then an MP and then a Lord, his relevant experience was a bit thin.
Anyway I just mentioned the info about the director of the PO being on the Board of the CPS and his response was:
"Don't they have enough of these duffers to go round? Do they have to do double duffer duty?"
I mean, that's the icing on the cake, isn't it - we're running out of duffers.
People talk a lot here about MPs having two jobs, but it seems to me a far bigger issue is this Directorship merry-go-round where people have 4-8 jobs and are Directors for each.
If Directors were forbidden to get compensation from any other firm apart from their own, one job alone, then the quality of governance of firms in this country would need to change remarkably.
Might actually get some Directors who take their responsibilities seriously. Or maybe still not.
If the Executive Director carousel didn't exist how would we grow the salaries and bonuses of Captains of Industry?
Maybe those Captains could steady and control their own ship?
Extreme Temperatures Around The World @extremetemps · 5h Extreme cold is intensifying in North America. In CANADA temperatures have plummeted to -48C in British Columbia and Alberta. -45.9C at Edmonton Int. AP one of the lowest temp. on record in the airport with the chance to drop even further.
Would it be a sound assumption that as their caucus is smashed by record extremes of cold that the GOP candidates work very hard to be the loudest voice denouncing the myth of climate change?
Comments
1) Defibrillator stolen from Police Scotland divisional headquarters in Edinburgh
2) Takes 2 months for cops to investigate a theft from their own shop
3) CCTV at HQ is potato quality
“When I was a kid, I was so envious of my well off friends who had fridges with ice dispensers. We couldn't afford those nice fridges so I waited overnight for my ice trays to freeze to get ice cubes.
My dumb "made it" dream was to get one of those fridges someday. Now I finally have one and I feel so lucky every time I get ice for my water. It's a simple pleasure and it helps me realize I don't need much to be happy.
What's your dumb "made it" dream that you finally accomplished?”
For me it was getting to Vladivostok. Growing up in tedious provincial England felt like a jail. A nice enough jail - but a jail. I would pore over atlases and dream of exotic escape - and Vladivostok captured all of that. The name alone was so foreign and poetic
Finally made it there around my 30th birthday. Vladivostok!!
Already interest rate changes are a poor tool for controlling inflation with 80% on some form of fixed rate, building months or years of lag into their effects. Further breaking the only tool in the box seems a little rash.
There was also this one a few years back:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080887/Drunken-burglars-stole-police-equipment-stumbling-unlocked-station.html
Also remember that the burden of proof for conspiracy charges is high.
Are there any clawback provisions in the bonuses awarded to PO managers? There ought to be.
I must say that the word "bonus" now sets my teeth on edge in the same way as the phrase "lessons learned". Corporate looting would be more accurate.
Yes, and it could conceivably happen.
This may seem very prosaic. I did lots of travelling as a child so this was normal not exotic for me.
But being warm in a house - boy, was that a treat when it finally arrived!
Calls to send the £3bn HMS Queen Elizabeth to the region set to be spurned because crew shortages mean only support ship cannot sail
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/12/aircraft-carriers-not-ready-red-sea-navy-recruitment-crisis/ (£££)
Decades of Tory defence cuts...
Honestly, there is something wonderfully appropriate in our biggest scandal being about the Post Office. As if Victoria Wood had decided to write a British version of the Sopranos and thought: "Now, where will I set it? Ah yes, the Post Office!"
The ITV drama made a human story out of what is superficially boring: computers, accounting and sub-post offices. It is a very emblematic story of how Britain (and for that matter many other countries) has evolved: ordinary people doing ordinary jobs being screwed over by a system designed not for the common interest, but rather for the financial interests at the top and their political friends.
It strikes a chord with that populist feeling, and feeds the suspicion that any "reform" that we are going to see in the way the country is run will screw over the common folk again in favour of those lobbying interests.
Marina Hyde has an interesting quote from Alan Bates in her column today:
"Interviewed by the Times last weekend at home in Colwyn Bay, Bates assured the paper that it didn’t matter he’d never been paid for his work, on top of having had his business destroyed by the Post Office, because “you don’t need a ridiculous amount of money” in life."
It's not about Ice cube dispensers, it it about life lived well, and that is all about values not valuables.
"Caretaker administration beckons?"
Surely a magnificent opportunity to reward some deserving Conservative donors.
That absolutely dwarfs the PO scandal (as bad as that is). But the bitter truth is the grooming scandal is so huge and so overwhelming, and raises so many difficult questions that most would rather avoid, it will never be truly addressed
That's where the money has gone in Broken Britain. I really don't think either party grasps the importance of public service as a core part of what we are as a nation.
ITV have an unrivalled opportunity to really ruffle some feathers
There's barely a day goes by when I don't reflect on that. It was only made possible by living in a first class developed country since WW2.
It reminds me a bit of Damien Hirst’s formaldehyde shark, entitled: “the impossibility of death in the mind of someone living”
I sometimes think about what happened to you. An unspeakable awfulness. Well done on living a great life thereafter. I can only imagine your thoughts as a very young man, age 20, staring at the future
It speaks to every part of the political spectrum and strikes at that fundamental decent British sense of fair play.
The IICSA reports are all here: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/. The abuse was widespread in all sorts of sectors and the government has utterly ignored the recommendations, as I wrote about - rather furiously - here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/24/kicking-issues-into-the-long-grass/
Edited: I've just remembered that the worst criminal fraud case in the U.K. - £1.5 billion - was the one I worked on, back in 2011/12. Then LIBOR - worked on that as well: and the FX ones - ditto.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12957713/florida-school-district-bans-dictionary-gov-ron-desantis.html
*OED definition 1, presumably, not definition 2: an eastern cuisine restaurant.
I achieved that, progressively, from 2017 through to 2022.
It's now about me trying to make a difference, both professionally and in the charitable sector, whilst making sure I still put family first at all times.
Secondly, the back street one man garage in Scunthorpe who struggles to do VAT/tax returns on time, it seems to me, is treated with a heavier hand by the HMRC than smooth operators who owe it £100,000,000.
It's not entirely Rishi's fault, and he could have made even more millions with less hassle by staying in the world of finance. But his CV is emblematic of what we don't want, and yet he's become PM.
I feel it's very much swings and roundabouts on the fundamental decent British sense of fair play front.
As the dust settles on the Post Office scandal, #Labour appears to have stamped its authority in the #polls – retaining a commanding 22-point lead for the second consecutive week.
🔴 Lab 45% (-2)
🔵 Con 23% (-2)
🟠 LD 11% (+2)
⚪ Ref 11% (+1)
🟢 Green 5% (NC)
🟡 SNP 3% (+1)
https://x.com/wethinkpolling/status/1745834526255833469?s=20
The Director of Communications has been suspended after recordings came out of him saying, after the Court of Appeal had overturned a number of convictions, that the subpostmasters were all crooks etc.,.
The company is still in denial.
First 8 polls of 2024, average Labour lead = 20.1%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
One thought that occurs to me is that the Post Office has been the cornerstone of government efforts to save local banking services as the banks find every excuse to close down local branches. Where's that going to end up now?
computer scandal I grant you.
I know it doesn't make complaints at bad things unreasonable but I do try to be grateful about it if I go too far into 'woe is us' territory.
Even now I'm a bit late to put on the heating, growing up without it (we could not afford to fix it) makes it seem extravagant luxury.
Simon Jeffreys, a non-Executive Director and Chair of the Audit, Risk and Compliance Committee is also -
"Simon chairs the Board of St James Place International plc, and is Chair of the Audit and Risk Committees of Templeton Emerging Markets Investment Trust plc, SimCorp A/S, a listed Danish financial services software company, and the Crown Prosecution Service."
We did a very brutal training ride on the Col de la Madone where I had had a massive crash on the descent, but remounted and dragged the champ all the the way to finish. I was covered in blood, shaking uncontrollably and vomiting into a convenient bin when Marc said the to DS, Ce mec, il sait souffrir. (This guy knows how to suffer.) No higher praise for an aspirant flahute.
That's when I knew I had it in me to be a pro cyclist at the highest level but I let my dad talk me out of going pro. In those days, it was a short and very poorly paid career but I will always believe I was good enough because of Marc's words.
Did I hear someone say NU10K?
I am, of course, assuming that there are such people left in Britain. I do wonder, sometimes.
Their likely problem is that if Davey is still leader and affected by it then it will be difficult to capitalise on the desire to 'get the bastards out' as we move into election mode and create the kind of pincer movement in the so-called 'Blue Wall' that Home Counties One Nation Tories have dreaded.
If I wanted to talk to one of the senior managers of the whole outfit I will find him in his garden in a local village.
This may of course be the last sigh of a departing relic, but it doesn't feel like it. The local larger town (population 100,000) has several such building societies.
Not a single building society which became a bank survives as an independent entity.
Early 2024 is though showing largely oscillation within the electoral blocs - the Refuk surge seems to have abated, but with them remaining at fairly high levels. This poll is LLG:RefCon 61: 34.
Notable no Refuk appearances in council by-elections recently. This suggests they have practically zero ground game.
That's going to make it difficult for them get a fair trial when the time comes.
If 2024 is disappointing there's little prospect of that.
Trouble is that, because they're decent people, they don't get to define the (un)reality. The gits, chancers and shysters do that because they're so much more aggressive in climbing the greasy pole and telling everyone else How It Is.
There's a lot to be said for being innocent as doves. But unless you're also as wise as a serpent (and, critically, prepared to use that wisdom), you end up living in a world run by actual snakes.
It's not an easy balance.
All while we were listening to Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
Yes she is completely inept and well out of her depth, nonetheless I fear she is the fall guy for the politicians. After all Ed and Starmer have come out fighting, and Kemi can't even be bothered with what she seems to consider the whole dreary affair.
Whether it is any better to have this rewarding carousel for Ministers and others is another matter.
There’s this chap called Bates. Could do with a good job, as I understand it. Some hands on experience in Post Office management….
He should be ok, and it's not as if the other two Parties have a whole lot to be smug about.
Corporate cultures can be positive for the organisation, or can be negative. Because of the resistance to change, negative cultures (or aspects of culture) can take years to turn around.
The Post Office, at top level, not postmasters, appears to have a rotten corporate culture. I fear it's not just the top bods who need to change, but many people within the organisation.
Before 2008, in banks, Risk was the graveyard for careers.
Knew one head of Risk who had been shoved there to end his career. Had warned the board that things were getting… risky in 2006.
When the music stopped, boy did he get himself some of that revenge….
"Don't they have enough of these duffers to go round? Do they have to do double duffer duty?"
I mean, that's the icing on the cake, isn't it - we're running out of duffers.
(Husband shares @Dura_Ace's view that now would be a good time to buy a PO Branch, Take The Money and Run. That's his politer and printable view, anyway.)
Better than what went before.
If Directors were forbidden to get compensation from any other firm apart from their own, one job alone, then the quality of governance of firms in this country would need to change remarkably.
Might actually get some Directors who take their responsibilities seriously. Or maybe still not.
Perhaps it is that. I am slightly obsessed with the Khmer Rouge because in some ways it seems the purest example of human evil - even worse than the Nazis. And all done in this idyllic tropical backwater
And I’m still uncovering horrors. I had no idea they killed nearly all the trained medical staff, for instance. Doctors, nurses, the lot. “Bourgeois”. Western medicine was rejected
All these people were replaced by young illiterate teenage kids from the rice farms. 13 year old doctors who couldn’t read the labels on pills. Not that they had many pills. Most sick people were condemned as fakers with western tendencies, those that got some treatment were given “pills” made out of tree bark. Known as “rabbit droppings”
Also: live vivisections for the heck of it
What about ThePhones4U fellow? He has indicated he might switch and fund the Labour Party. Throw this as a sweetener and who knows he might be back on side? He has the experience, he lives near Stoke and he used to sell telephones, so did the GPO, so he has the Post Office experience really.
(Is the PO management deserving of *that* severe a punishment though?)
Guess what fixed rate mortgages are, under the hood? Derivatives….
You start with change at the top and you keep going until you hit the layer you need, the one that is worthwhile and then you make them feel - through reward and praise - that they are doing the right thing by doing the right thing. It takes time and hard work and persistence. It can be done. But only if you first realise it needs to be done. The PO has not even got to that point yet.
Strange thought I'm sure.