Why not just return the Marbles to Greece? We look good and feel the glow of doing the right thing. They are happy and we earn a place in their hearts. Sorted. It's goodwill all round and peace on Earth. There's so many difficult problems in the world it seems a shame to make a meal out of the really easy ones.
Give an inch to A and many from B to Z will want to take a yard.
Its better to exchange rather than give things - you can always allow the other side to get slightly the better of the bargain if you're feeling generous.
I suppose the Elgin Marbles could be exchanged for Corfu returning to British rule.
The old 'slippery slope'? I rarely buy that and I certainly don't on this one. It's sui generous and can be treated as such. Just return them (which costs us nothing) and bank the Goodwill. It's a win for us. Goodwill has value. That's why you can find it sometimes on a balance sheet. Least you could back in my day as an accountant (chartered).
(Snip)
It'll gain us f'all goodwill. Those who care to have them back will say that it should have been done years ago / they should never have been 'stolen'; whilst those who don't care, won't care enough to give us any goodwill.
Of course it will. There'll be plenty of people surprised and delighted. And 'better late then never' is a caveat which tempers rather than eliminates that sentiment.
Nah, it won't. There'll also be people pi**ed off, as well. It will gain us nothing in international relations, and, in fact, cause us a lot more hassle in the future.
(That's not to say it shouldn't be done just that the 'goodwill' argument is specious.)
There's nothing specious about Goodwill. It's at the heart of Soft Power.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
Why oh Why does Downing Street persist in trying to conjure up some new headline on a day to day basis, presumably trying to divert people from the reality of the terrible state the country is in. Much better to shut up for a month or two, give us all a break, stop the ridiculous morning interviews to Sky and the BBC and instead get on with the actual work of government. They might see an increase in polling support. After all the Lib Dems, Reform and Greens seem to benefit from almost a no show on a daily basis.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Why not just return the Marbles to Greece? We look good and feel the glow of doing the right thing. They are happy and we earn a place in their hearts. Sorted. It's goodwill all round and peace on Earth. There's so many difficult problems in the world it seems a shame to make a meal out of the really easy ones.
Give an inch to A and many from B to Z will want to take a yard.
Its better to exchange rather than give things - you can always allow the other side to get slightly the better of the bargain if you're feeling generous.
I suppose the Elgin Marbles could be exchanged for Corfu returning to British rule.
Why can't you give an inch and then just stop?
It's easier to ignore unreasonable demands than reasonable ones.
Apparently the public doesn't even want these marbles
Plenty of restitution going on already, so if the government were seriously worried, it'd have stopped it long ago.
It's particularly the large national museums, with special legislation, that comprise the question at present. Intderesting and on topic piece here, interview by the V&A Director, just up on the Graun.
Why not just return the Marbles to Greece? We look good and feel the glow of doing the right thing. They are happy and we earn a place in their hearts. Sorted. It's goodwill all round and peace on Earth. There's so many difficult problems in the world it seems a shame to make a meal out of the really easy ones.
Give an inch to A and many from B to Z will want to take a yard.
Its better to exchange rather than give things - you can always allow the other side to get slightly the better of the bargain if you're feeling generous.
I suppose the Elgin Marbles could be exchanged for Corfu returning to British rule.
Why can't you give an inch and then just stop?
It's easier to ignore unreasonable demands than reasonable ones.
Apparently the public doesn't even want these marbles
Yep. The argument against appears to be, "if we return the Elgin marbles, next thing you know we'll be forking out billions to every tom dick and harry with a colonial era grievance."
This reeks of weakness and insecurity to me. We should be able to take issues on their own merit and decide them without fear or favour. Walk tall, walk tall and look the world right in the eye.
Why not just return the Marbles to Greece? We look good and feel the glow of doing the right thing. They are happy and we earn a place in their hearts. Sorted. It's goodwill all round and peace on Earth. There's so many difficult problems in the world it seems a shame to make a meal out of the really easy ones.
Give an inch to A and many from B to Z will want to take a yard.
Its better to exchange rather than give things - you can always allow the other side to get slightly the better of the bargain if you're feeling generous.
I suppose the Elgin Marbles could be exchanged for Corfu returning to British rule.
Why can't you give an inch and then just stop?
It's easier to ignore unreasonable demands than reasonable ones.
Apparently the public doesn't even want these marbles
Yep. The argument against appears to be, "if we return the Elgin marbles, next thing you know we'll be forking out billions to every tom dick and harry with a colonial era grievance."
This reeks of weakness and insecurity to me. We should be able to take issues on their own merit and decide them without fear or favour. Walk tall, walk tall and look the world right in the eye.
Instead of pissing in its eye, like the HMG has just done to the Greek Government.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
The reflexive impulse to look down on other people has always stuck me as the principal downside to private education, for its participants at least.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
I’m tickled by the vision of HYUFD declaiming Sophocles in the original Greek in his front room with Mrs HYUFD as a no doubt weary audience.
Why not just return the Marbles to Greece? We look good and feel the glow of doing the right thing. They are happy and we earn a place in their hearts. Sorted. It's goodwill all round and peace on Earth. There's so many difficult problems in the world it seems a shame to make a meal out of the really easy ones.
Give an inch to A and many from B to Z will want to take a yard.
Its better to exchange rather than give things - you can always allow the other side to get slightly the better of the bargain if you're feeling generous.
I suppose the Elgin Marbles could be exchanged for Corfu returning to British rule.
The old 'slippery slope'? I rarely buy that and I certainly don't on this one. It's sui generous and can be treated as such. Just return them (which costs us nothing) and bank the Goodwill. It's a win for us. Goodwill has value. That's why you can find it sometimes on a balance sheet. Least you could back in my day as an accountant (chartered).
(Snip)
It'll gain us f'all goodwill. Those who care to have them back will say that it should have been done years ago / they should never have been 'stolen'; whilst those who don't care, won't care enough to give us any goodwill.
Of course it will. There'll be plenty of people surprised and delighted. And 'better late then never' is a caveat which tempers rather than eliminates that sentiment.
Nah, it won't. There'll also be people pi**ed off, as well. It will gain us nothing in international relations, and, in fact, cause us a lot more hassle in the future.
(That's not to say it shouldn't be done just that the 'goodwill' argument is specious.)
There's nothing specious about Goodwill. It's at the heart of Soft Power.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
Has our friend got O or A levels in either Ancient Greek or Latin? Personally I gave up Latin at 15, as I wanted to do the sciences, and at my school there was a rigid separation. I sometimes wonder if I made a mistake, but my parents were both science-orientated and I wanted to do ‘something medical’!
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
'Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?' Your own words, hardly the words of someone who thinks reading and translating Latin and Greek of importance
On the other hand, I do think Sunak cocked it up with his "snub" to the Greek PM
He probably thought he could have turned it into a wedge issue - the Left will have over everything to everyone! - but he failed
Boris would, instinctuively, have handled it better: he could have done a photo shoot with the Greek PM telling him to fuck off in Ancient Greek (which he probably speaks better than the Greek PM)
Have you read A Dragon Apparent by Norman Lewis - about his travels in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam before the Vietnam war?
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
I’m tickled by the vision of HYUFD declaiming Sophocles in the original Greek in his front room with Mrs HYUFD as a no doubt weary audience.
Without making specific reference to HYUFD or indeed anyone else at PB, my own thoughts tend more to the political side. It does strike me that an annual ostracism vote by PB might make life on here a bit more unpredictable - thouigh we'd have to use some electronic version of a pottery sherd to scratch the name of the person we want exiled.
I suppose the nearest thing in UK culture is I'm Having Fun Eating Wombat Prepuces In The Bush on TV.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
Evidence on face coverings is still uncertain, Harries says
As we've been reporting, the inquiry has just been talking about one of the most divisive policies of the pandemic: face masks.
Harries says there was little evidence on the effectiveness of homemade face coverings and she was concerned that recommending them could encourage people to socialise more and lead to a "false sense of security".
"If people just thought they could get a bit of t-shirt, put it around their face, and that would solve all our problems and we could go back to normal [then] that was not going to be a good public health intervention," she said.
But, more than three years later, she says the evidence on face coverings is still "uncertain", partly because it's so difficult to design a study to accurately test their effectiveness in real world conditions.
The problem with masking was always thus:
If everyone wore a top-quality, medical grade mask perfectly at all times, then they would have had a major effect. However, in reality, almost nobody did so.
Thus the effectiveness of the policy was reduced so far that the negative social effects of masking (which were manifold) in the later, post-vax stages of the pandemic, probably outweighed any clinical benefits from the policies.
Anyone remember the policy whereby you only had to put a mask on in a pub when stood up, or when you had to attend a wedding in masks unless you were the bride and/or were eating??
One day, someone will produce an entire hit black comedy based on some of this stuff.
Most people seem to spend more time fiddling with their cloth / paper thin poorly fitting mask than doing anything else and the whole nonsense of it being ok to take ot off to eat or drink. Is the virus stopped from spreading when you are sipping on a can of coke?
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
The reflexive impulse to look down on other people has always stuck me as the principal downside to private education, for its participants at least.
The only thing* worse than people with superiority complices, is people with superiority complices about how much they don't have a superiority complex.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
I did Latin at my Bog Standard Comp. It was my favourite subject and (probably linked) my best one. I preferred translating Ovid to memorizing the Periodic Table or grappling with Calculus (although all 3 are fond memories).
Without making specific reference to HYUFD or indeed anyone else at PB, my own thoughts tend more to the political side. It does strike me that an annual ostracism vote by PB might make life on here a bit more unpredictable - thouigh we'd have to use some electronic version of a pottery sherd to scratch the name of the person we want exiled.
It would be the single best thing we could do to improve this community. We do it on a motorbike related FaceyB group I'm. We once voted the same bloke out two years running and his Mrs joined the group just so she could give us all shit about it.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
I suppose they come under the categories of ‘ideas’ rather than tangible ‘things’. The closest we get here is when great art works are being punted by impoverished aristos and there’s a furore about them being saved for the nation.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
On the other hand, I do think Sunak cocked it up with his "snub" to the Greek PM
He probably thought he could have turned it into a wedge issue - the Left will have over everything to everyone! - but he failed
Boris would, instinctuively, have handled it better: he could have done a photo shoot with the Greek PM telling him to fuck off in Ancient Greek (which he probably speaks better than the Greek PM)
Have you read A Dragon Apparent by Norman Lewis - about his travels in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam before the Vietnam war?
Sounds interesting; we had a week in Laos a few years ago and really liked what we saw. Cambodia could be heartbreaking, Angkor Wat apart.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
On the other hand, I do think Sunak cocked it up with his "snub" to the Greek PM
He probably thought he could have turned it into a wedge issue - the Left will have over everything to everyone! - but he failed
Boris would, instinctuively, have handled it better: he could have done a photo shoot with the Greek PM telling him to fuck off in Ancient Greek (which he probably speaks better than the Greek PM)
Have you read A Dragon Apparent by Norman Lewis - about his travels in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam before the Vietnam war?
No, I haven't, and I probably should've - but I am now in Bangkok with an absolute ton of accumulated work to do, so not much time for reading, sadly. Mais, merci
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
'Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?' Your own words, hardly the words of someone who thinks reading and translating Latin and Greek of importance
It's a reference to the general perception of the role of classics in schools - both of self - as you so beautifully demonstrate of yourself - and more widely in the business and political world.
Eton etc *are* an archaic relict,
As you don't understand these words, I'll explain.
archaic comes from the Ancient Greek root ἀρχαῖος which means old-fashioend and primitive.
relict comes from the past participle of the Latin verb relinquo, I leave,. abandon.
'Old-fashioned, generally abandoned things' is an entirely accurate and objective description of the classics in modern UK education.
Today's Post Office Inquiry witness. It begins with him not being able to remember the date he first worked for the organisation any more accurately than "the 80s".
You cannot help but being struck by the low quality of staff the PO was using for its persecution of Subpostmasters. We are currently seeing a parade of nonentities with few educational or professional qualifications, some jaw-droppingly stupid, and some malevolent with it. They are mostly using the 'we-were-only-obeying-orders' defence.
I doubt any of them would know about Nuremburg.
Only following orders, but none of them can name anyone specific. It's just a "general feeling" that the Horizon system was 100% reliable.
Yes, whenever asked for names, the answer generally returned is 'the legal team', or some other vague corporate division. Richard Roll, one of the whistleblowers, was a rare exception. He was very clear that his team had one man in charge, Mik Peach, to whom complaints and concerns about Horizon were directed in the not unreasonable belief he would be passing these views up the hierarchy.
I watched a bit of Peach's own testimony. He looked like he was sitting on a hornets' nest.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
Has our friend got O or A levels in either Ancient Greek or Latin? Personally I gave up Latin at 15, as I wanted to do the sciences, and at my school there was a rigid separation. I sometimes wonder if I made a mistake, but my parents were both science-orientated and I wanted to do ‘something medical’!
Top quality classical scholarship feeds bits of the human condition that otherwise would not be met and can't be priced or quantified. A wonderful recent (late classical) example is James Howard-Johnston's magnum opus 'The Last Great War of Antiquity', distilling fantastically difficult scholarship into a readable and enthralling book. The stuff you have to be able to read and to know to produce this is mind blowing. Oxford produces this, and vaccines as well!!
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
I suppose they come under the categories of ‘ideas’ rather than tangible ‘things’. The closest we get here is when great art works are being punted by impoverished aristos and there’s a furore about them being saved for the nation.
Football clubs too, I suppose. And a number of tech companies,
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be. Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
I believe it’s the accepted terminology in Greece, which is understandable since we’re talking about one of the greatest expressions of Greek culture removed in murky circumstances (and is more accurate since there are more pieces than those held by the BM). Britain has tended to be a taker rather than a giver, but it would probably rub salt in the wound if some great cultural symbol which had been despoiled while Britain was powerless was named after the dodgy geezer that slipped a local official dosh to turn a blind eye.
Interesting question as to what's the British Elgin/Parthenon Marbles. What great cultural symbol has been taken from the UK and we would like back?
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
I suppose they come under the categories of ‘ideas’ rather than tangible ‘things’. The closest we get here is when great art works are being punted by impoverished aristos and there’s a furore about them being saved for the nation.
Also literary and historical and scientific archives. There have been sone real losses over the years.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
Has our friend got O or A levels in either Ancient Greek or Latin? Personally I gave up Latin at 15, as I wanted to do the sciences, and at my school there was a rigid separation. I sometimes wonder if I made a mistake, but my parents were both science-orientated and I wanted to do ‘something medical’!
Top quality classical scholarship feeds bits of the human condition that otherwise would not be met and can't be priced or quantified. A wonderful recent (late classical) example is James Howard-Johnston's magnum opus 'The Last Great War of Antiquity', distilling fantastically difficult scholarship into a readable and enthralling book. The stuff you have to be able to read and to know to produce this is mind blowing. Oxford produces this, and vaccines as well!!
Oh good, thanks very much - have duly bookmarked it.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
Things I don't think are important, number 86: The Elgin Marbles.
Oh I disagree with you there. They are massively important. What is not in any way important is keeping them in the British Museum or arguing with a friendly nation over who has them.
It certainly won't be a friendly nation now.
If it were Assyrian stuff I'd be calling it a wedge issue; as it is, the Elgin marbles hardly seem enough for a diplomatic incident. One wonders what Mr Sunak really didn't want to talk about.
There's a real chance the Assyrian stuff would be destroyed by fanatics, in Iraq.
I read a book recently which I had thought was going to be a standard historical fiction novel set in Nineveh, but was actually half that, half in Mosul present day during the ISIS takeover (though I don't think it uses the word ISIS) and a group of local and international archaeology experts being forced to hand over artefacts. Vivid stuff.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
Maybe I have just had too many, and they are part of my job
Also there are too many that are simply not very good
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week. Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
cultural re-appropriation of inappropriate colonial appropriation?
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
Has our friend got O or A levels in either Ancient Greek or Latin? Personally I gave up Latin at 15, as I wanted to do the sciences, and at my school there was a rigid separation. I sometimes wonder if I made a mistake, but my parents were both science-orientated and I wanted to do ‘something medical’!
Top quality classical scholarship feeds bits of the human condition that otherwise would not be met and can't be priced or quantified. A wonderful recent (late classical) example is James Howard-Johnston's magnum opus 'The Last Great War of Antiquity', distilling fantastically difficult scholarship into a readable and enthralling book. The stuff you have to be able to read and to know to produce this is mind blowing. Oxford produces this, and vaccines as well!!
Someone has recently produced a history of the first hundred years (1920-2020) of the grammar school I attended. The author was not very complimentary about the 1950’s, my era. A judgement with which I have some sympathy.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
Maybe I have just had too many, and they are part of my job
Also there are too many that are simply not very good
I did say this is a luxury problem
So I think the distinction here is those posh overpriced tasting menus that are there for the sake of the star. And come with overpriced wine pairings.
As distinct from the set menu that is the norm in a feast-style meal in lots of countries.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
It's been a useful characteristic post premiership - I've been impressed how she has handled the humiliation.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Or Harrods running out of your favourite chutney. You do get ones deserving of the label. But the notion that poor people don't or shouldn't care about (eg) the fine arts or (related) that rich people's social justice concerns are shallow and self-serving - this is the sort of pernicious nonsense I (and I think Tim) was thinking of.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
It's been a useful characteristic post premiership - I've been impressed how she has handled the humiliation.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
It's been a useful characteristic post premiership - I've been impressed how she has handled the humiliation.
I’ve had colleagues in the past like that. One in particular who was widely disliked and led to several people leaving.
She had absolutely zero emotional intelligence so would just say and do things without any thought to how those affected would feel. But conversely people could be extremely rude or aggressive to her and it was water off a duck’s back. She didn’t bear grudges. She didn’t seem to take anything personally. It was like dealing with AI rather than a human.
Not sure what has changed peoples minds to that extent? I suspect the vast majority haven't given it any headspace and give instinctive answers.
More coverage since then. Notably of the nice gallery the Greeks have built. And the wire-brushing story was damaging to the British Museum. Plus other restitutions have taken place.
Also, the generation eddicated proper with Latin and Greek is dying out, a few archaic relicts such as the Etonians apart (do all of them even do Latin now)?
But only suiggestions!
PS Scrub the wire-brushing, strictly speaking (so to speak). THat came out in 2009 (but might have been recapped later).
The major public schools and many grammar schools still do Latin, Classics and to a lesser extent Greek. Professor Beard has also done a good job promoting classics in state schools more broadly too.
Whether you support or oppose return of the Marbles knowledge of Greek and Ancient Greek in particular will help decipher inscriptions and archive records that put them in context.
I knew some in New Labour like Charles Clarke and some ultra business focused Thatcherites were Philistines when it comes to Classics but I didn't realise Scottish Nationalists were too!
I studied Ancient Greek (to Standard Grade) and Latin (to Higher) at my Scottish comprehensive school. I'm not sure how useful any of it was but I did enjoy both subjects.
Quite. It's curious that HYUFD straight away assumes we neither know nor care about the classics, and therefore by implication that we are inferior to posh public school educated Tories. I've got half a bookcase worth of the stuff. Or maybe more. I haven't counted recently. Only just been reading an interesting assessment of the campaigns of Philip and Alexander of Macedon.
The reflexive impulse to look down on other people has always stuck me as the principal downside to private education, for its participants at least.
The only thing* worse than people with superiority complices, is people with superiority complices about how much they don't have a superiority complex.
*obviously this is not the only thing
I'm sure there's at least one more iteration in this series but I can't be bothered to write it down.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Or Harrods running out of your favourite chutney. You do get ones deserving of the label. But the notion that poor people don't or shouldn't care about (eg) the fine arts or (related) that rich people's social justice concerns are shallow and self-serving - this is the sort of pernicious nonsense I (and I think Tim) was thinking of.
Yes, but it’s a feature of the technocratic centre-left too. At times a major tenet of Blairism. There will be aspects of it in Starmer’s government as there were in Blair’s, particularly in education. Look out for constant emphasis on “STEM” and the importance of vocational qualifications.
And on the far left there’s a strain of anti-intellectualism - especially in the UK - that is forever in conflict with left wing intellectualism (and indeed intellectual snobbery).
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Or Harrods running out of your favourite chutney. You do get ones deserving of the label. But the notion that poor people don't or shouldn't care about (eg) the fine arts or (related) that rich people's social justice concerns are shallow and self-serving - this is the sort of pernicious nonsense I (and I think Tim) was thinking of.
No one I know has ever mentioned the damn things. Now, I get they are an important (Greek) cultural artifact, but if the Greek people want them back in their rightful place, let them have them. It's no biggie in the grand scheme of things. If you ask the next homeless person you see what they think should happen to the Parthenon Friezes, what do you think their response will be? Sunak shouldn't be wasting time on this and pissing the Greeks off. He could have just uttered some placid nonsense and we could have all gone back to something more worthwhile. Now he's getting asked questions about it, he's looking shifty and digging a deeper hole, when he could spend just a little time on the homeless person. Poor people aren't philistines, they just don't have the same priorities as people who have time to care about a load of old Greek slabs.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
It's been a useful characteristic post premiership - I've been impressed how she has handled the humiliation.
I’ve had colleagues in the past like that. One in particular who was widely disliked and led to several people leaving.
She had absolutely zero emotional intelligence so would just say and do things without any thought to how those affected would feel. But conversely people could be extremely rude or aggressive to her and it was water off a duck’s back. She didn’t bear grudges. She didn’t seem to take anything personally. It was like dealing with AI rather than a human.
I’ve worked with someone rather like that. Only trouble was that this person could bear grudges; however they were extremely able, in their technical capacity.
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked, outraged and taking your bat and ball home because you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth,.rather than best price upfront.
The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth.
Every time the Greeks ask for the Elgin Marbles we should chip a bit off of them and post it to them.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Or Harrods running out of your favourite chutney. You do get ones deserving of the label. But the notion that poor people don't or shouldn't care about (eg) the fine arts or (related) that rich people's social justice concerns are shallow and self-serving - this is the sort of pernicious nonsense I (and I think Tim) was thinking of.
No one I know has ever mentioned the damn things. Now, I get they are an important (Greek) cultural artifact, but if the Greek people want them back in their rightful place, let them have them. It's no biggie in the grand scheme of things. If you ask the next homeless person you see what they think should happen to the Parthenon Friezes, what do you think their response will be? Sunak shouldn't be wasting time on this and pissing the Greeks off. He could have just uttered some placid nonsense and we could have all gone back to something more worthwhile. Now he's getting asked questions about it, he's looking shifty and digging a deeper hole, when he could spend just a little time on the homeless person. Poor people aren't philistines, they just don't have the same priorities as people who have time to care about a load of old Greek slabs.
No I agree. Return them - but not on the grounds that the British Museum is not of interest to ordinary people.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Watching PMQs, Sunak coming across as extremely thin skinned
It’s one of his under appreciated weaknesses. I think it’ll come out quite badly during an election campaign.
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
It's been a useful characteristic post premiership - I've been impressed how she has handled the humiliation.
I’ve had colleagues in the past like that. One in particular who was widely disliked and led to several people leaving.
She had absolutely zero emotional intelligence so would just say and do things without any thought to how those affected would feel. But conversely people could be extremely rude or aggressive to her and it was water off a duck’s back. She didn’t bear grudges. She didn’t seem to take anything personally. It was like dealing with AI rather than a human.
The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth.
Every time the Greeks ask for the Elgin Marbles we should chip a bit off of them and post it to them.
Evidence on face coverings is still uncertain, Harries says
As we've been reporting, the inquiry has just been talking about one of the most divisive policies of the pandemic: face masks.
Harries says there was little evidence on the effectiveness of homemade face coverings and she was concerned that recommending them could encourage people to socialise more and lead to a "false sense of security".
"If people just thought they could get a bit of t-shirt, put it around their face, and that would solve all our problems and we could go back to normal [then] that was not going to be a good public health intervention," she said.
But, more than three years later, she says the evidence on face coverings is still "uncertain", partly because it's so difficult to design a study to accurately test their effectiveness in real world conditions.
The problem with masking was always thus:
If everyone wore a top-quality, medical grade mask perfectly at all times, then they would have had a major effect. However, in reality, almost nobody did so.
Thus the effectiveness of the policy was reduced so far that the negative social effects of masking (which were manifold) in the later, post-vax stages of the pandemic, probably outweighed any clinical benefits from the policies.
Anyone remember the policy whereby you only had to put a mask on in a pub when stood up, or when you had to attend a wedding in masks unless you were the bride and/or were eating??
One day, someone will produce an entire hit black comedy based on some of this stuff.
I think the ultimate prize for stupid covid mask rules goes to the Welsh Government, who at one point required you to wear a mask to church, but you could take it off it sing...
The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth.
Every time the Greeks ask for the Elgin Marbles we should chip a bit off of them and post it to them.
Perhaps an ear first to reinforce the illegitimacy of the whole enterprise.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
19. Cynical Genius Illusion: Cynical people are seen as smarter, but sizable research suggests they actually tend to be dumber. Cynicism is not a sign of intelligence but a substitute for it, a way to shield oneself from betrayal & disappointment without having to actually think.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer. The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Aren't there a few steak restaurants that do that? I was going to go to Le Relais de Venise L'Entrecote on my recent London trip but the queue was too fecking long, got pissed instead.
One of the more significant Prime Minister’s Questions…Starmer mocked and humiliated Sunak with a prime ministerial confidence…with echoes of Smith/ Blair re Major…will have further knocked Sunak’s confidence…Tory MPs will be more miserable..a misery that feeds on itself.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
Having encountered the First World problem described (above), I would strongly advocate the tasting menu. With the matched wines. And the Chef's tasters.
It is one of the few high end restaurants I've been to where paying the bill feels like a reasonable deal - you definitely get your moneys worth there. Incredible food, tons of good staff.
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however. Edit - beaten to it.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Or Harrods running out of your favourite chutney. You do get ones deserving of the label. But the notion that poor people don't or shouldn't care about (eg) the fine arts or (related) that rich people's social justice concerns are shallow and self-serving - this is the sort of pernicious nonsense I (and I think Tim) was thinking of.
Yes, but it’s a feature of the technocratic centre-left too. At times a major tenet of Blairism. There will be aspects of it in Starmer’s government as there were in Blair’s, particularly in education. Look out for constant emphasis on “STEM” and the importance of vocational qualifications.
And on the far left there’s a strain of anti-intellectualism - especially in the UK - that is forever in conflict with left wing intellectualism (and indeed intellectual snobbery).
That's a point about STEM and the 'value' of certain disciplines over others. Also the drive to close the status gap between an academic and a technical education. I'm supportive of this on the whole but what you don't want is to lose the idea of education for education's sake or to end up steering working class kids away from 'ivory tower' subjects.
Rishi Sunak is "the man with the reverse Midas touch," says Keir Starmer, "everything he touches turns to... maybe the home secretary can help me out?"
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
You’ve just sneered at the left’s lunatics. So it is true after all. It would be quite a push to suggest Jihadi-supporting Islamists or cultural Marxists are typical of the left. Just like left wingers choose to sneer at Trump or Milei.
The tweeter is right of centre himself so he’s not making a partisan jibe against the right.
Consider the research of the Israeli economist Dan Ben-David, who heads the Shoresh Institution for Socioeconomic Research at Tel Aviv University. In a country of nine million people where 21 percent of Israeli first graders are ultra-Orthodox Jews, the vast majority of whom grow up with virtually no secular education, and another 23 percent are Israeli Arabs, who attend chronically poorly funded and poorly staffed public schools, Ben-David noted, “fewer than 400,000 individuals are responsible for keeping Israel in the developed world.”
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however. Edit - beaten to it.
McDonald’s, Dominos or your local chippie are arguably other examples of the genre.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
Having encountered the First World problem described (above), I would strongly advocate the tasting menu. With the matched wines. And the Chef's tasters.
It is one of the few high end restaurants I've been to where paying the bill feels like a reasonable deal - you definitely get your moneys worth there. Incredible food, tons of good staff.
lol. I never pay and I STILL hate them
I suggest you are a victim of Luxury Goods Syndrome. BECAUSE you pay a lot of money for all this faff and absurdity you cherish it more. Otherwise you’d feel horribly cheated
It’s like the way people always overrate 600 page books they’ve waded through. If you conclude at the end the book is crap that means you’ve wasted endless hours on crap
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer. The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.
He has risen far too quickly to the highest office and, as ever, is being remorselessly 'found out' by it.
And he is trapped trying to keep his party together as most of them descend into civil war.
One of the more significant Prime Minister’s Questions…Starmer mocked and humiliated Sunak with a prime ministerial confidence…with echoes of Smith/ Blair re Major…will have further knocked Sunak’s confidence…Tory MPs will be more miserable..a misery that feeds on itself.
Can Rishi really withstand another year of this?
OK, Major and May endured worse humiliation for longer. But frankly, they were better people, more in control of any tetchy instincts, than their successor.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Aren't there a few steak restaurants that do that? I was going to go to Le Relais de Venise L'Entrecote on my recent London trip but the queue was too fecking long, got pissed instead.
I can recommend a dog restaurant in Phnom Penh. Literally all it does is dog and people drive for many miles
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
You’ve just sneered at the left’s lunatics. So it is true after all. It would be quite a push to suggest Jihadi-supporting Islamists or cultural Marxists are typical of the left. Just like left wingers choose to sneer at Trump or Milei.
The tweeter is right of centre himself so he’s not making a partisan jibe against the right.
Interesting anecdote time by the way.
I was on a call with a bunch of Argentinian colleagues yesterday, investigating what one of our clients could or couldn’t do in the face of regulatory and fiscal hurdles.
I asked whether the recent election of their own chainsaw wielding Truss might change any of our conclusions, and received a heartfelt message of hope for better times from my interlocutor, which her colleagues all seemed to echo.
So Milei seems popular among at least one little grouping of cosmopolitan urban professional types.
I think they have a point. Argentina badly needs to open itself up to international trade and norms. It’s just a shame its architect of change talks to his dead dog and wants to legalise the selling of children.
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth.
Every time the Greeks ask for the Elgin Marbles we should chip a bit off of them and post it to them.
Or offer to return them to the country that gave them to Lord Elgin (Turkey)
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
Having encountered the First World problem described (above), I would strongly advocate the tasting menu. With the matched wines. And the Chef's tasters.
It is one of the few high end restaurants I've been to where paying the bill feels like a reasonable deal - you definitely get your moneys worth there. Incredible food, tons of good staff.
Agree re tasting menus in general. I love them. They always seem like very good value compared to a normal restaurant. OK you are paying quite a bit more, but for much more and stuff I can't make myself and you are normally there for quite a few hours.
Lots of people go out to eat for the company, or to avoid the cooking/washing up. I like cooking and entertaining so I go out for the food. If I am going out for the company I go to an ordinary restaurant, mainly because the people I am dining with don't want a Michelin star meal.
"Why Labour may be forced to rejoin the European single market If the party wants strong economic growth it will need to think radically. By Andrew Marr"
The Tudor Trust, one of the wealthiest charities in Britain, is dismissing its entire board as part of a diversity drive after branding itself “white and privileged”.
Which is simply not true. The lunatics are nearly all on the left; they are often in power; this is a convenient lie, for them. Like pretending Tommy Robinson is as much a threat as jihadi- supporting Islamists and cultural Marxists
You’ve just sneered at the left’s lunatics. So it is true after all. It would be quite a push to suggest Jihadi-supporting Islamists or cultural Marxists are typical of the left. Just like left wingers choose to sneer at Trump or Milei.
The tweeter is right of centre himself so he’s not making a partisan jibe against the right.
Interesting anecdote time by the way.
I was on a call with a bunch of Argentinian colleagues yesterday, investigating what one of our clients could or couldn’t do in the face of regulatory and fiscal hurdles.
I asked whether the recent election of their own chainsaw wielding Truss might change any of our conclusions, and received a heartfelt message of hope for better times from my interlocutor, which her colleagues all seemed to echo.
So Milei seems popular among at least one little grouping of cosmopolitan urban professional types.
I think they have a point. Argentina badly needs to open itself up to international trade and norms. It’s just a shame its architect of change talks to his dead dog and wants to legalise the selling of children.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Aren't there a few steak restaurants that do that? I was going to go to Le Relais de Venise L'Entrecote on my recent London trip but the queue was too fecking long, got pissed instead.
I can recommend a dog restaurant in Phnom Penh. Literally all it does is dog and people drive for many miles
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however. Edit - beaten to it.
McDonald’s, Dominos or your local chippie are arguably other examples of the genre.
Chippies are really complicated. Haddock or cod, sausage or Mars bar, peas mushy or round.
When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic. If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill. Proper first world problem.
It really isn't a first world problem
Think it through
London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed
Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches
Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London
Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)
So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Tasting Memus are an abomination
That is my Luxury Belief
Having encountered the First World problem described (above), I would strongly advocate the tasting menu. With the matched wines. And the Chef's tasters.
It is one of the few high end restaurants I've been to where paying the bill feels like a reasonable deal - you definitely get your moneys worth there. Incredible food, tons of good staff.
lol. I never pay and I STILL hate them
I suggest you are a victim of Luxury Goods Syndrome. BECAUSE you pay a lot of money for all this faff and absurdity you cherish it more. Otherwise you’d feel horribly cheated
It’s like the way people always overrate 600 page books they’ve waded through. If you conclude at the end the book is crap that means you’ve wasted endless hours on crap
See: Veblen Goods
Nope - It's is genuinely worth the money. I've been to plenty of high places where you feel that "Yes, it was good, but...."
Comments
1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.
2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.
So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
It's particularly the large national museums, with special legislation, that comprise the question at present. Intderesting and on topic piece here, interview by the V&A Director, just up on the Graun.
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/nov/29/museum-trustees-legally-hidebound-over-repatriations-says-tristram-hunt
This reeks of weakness and insecurity to me. We should be able to take issues on their own merit and decide them without fear or favour. Walk tall, walk tall and look the world right in the eye.
I'd say the closest to Lord Elgin are probably Hollywood and the US tech industry. They've made off with quite a lot of our history and inventions and made them American. We should demand them back.
I suppose the nearest thing in UK culture is I'm Having Fun Eating Wombat Prepuces In The Bush on TV.
*obviously this is not the only thing
For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.
This is Peak First World Problem.
Eton etc *are* an archaic relict,
As you don't understand these words, I'll explain.
archaic comes from the Ancient Greek root ἀρχαῖος which means old-fashioend and primitive.
relict comes from the past participle of the Latin verb relinquo, I leave,. abandon.
'Old-fashioned, generally abandoned things' is an entirely accurate and objective description of the classics in modern UK education.
I watched a bit of Peach's own testimony. He looked like he was sitting on a hornets' nest.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/11/29/ben-spencer-why-campaigning-on-behalf-of-bully-xl-dogs/
Thus true?
That is my Luxury Belief
All our Broken Idols it was called.
Also there are too many that are simply not very good
I did say this is a luxury problem
Boris was also thin skinned. Truss on the other hand was the opposite: thick skinned to the point of being entirely incapable of reading the room. One of her more amusing characteristics. In the tradition of loony greats like Bill Cash.
The author was not very complimentary about the 1950’s, my era.
A judgement with which I have some sympathy.
As distinct from the set menu that is the norm in a feast-style meal in lots of countries.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-67554333
She had absolutely zero emotional intelligence so would just say and do things without any thought to how those affected would feel. But conversely people could be extremely rude or aggressive to her and it was water off a duck’s back. She didn’t bear grudges. She didn’t seem to take anything personally. It was like dealing with AI rather than a human.
And on the far left there’s a strain of anti-intellectualism - especially in the UK - that is forever in conflict with left wing intellectualism (and indeed intellectual snobbery).
https://x.com/kafkaswife/status/1729838205464178931
If you ask the next homeless person you see what they think should happen to the Parthenon Friezes, what do you think their response will be?
Sunak shouldn't be wasting time on this and pissing the Greeks off. He could have just uttered some placid nonsense and we could have all gone back to something more worthwhile.
Now he's getting asked questions about it, he's looking shifty and digging a deeper hole, when he could spend just a little time on the homeless person.
Poor people aren't philistines, they just don't have the same priorities as people who have time to care about a load of old Greek slabs.
https://x.com/g_s_bhogal/status/1728436080368574742?s=46
Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.
Its like going to a North African market and being shocked, outraged and taking your bat and ball home because you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth,.rather than best price upfront.
This one hits home for me:
19. Cynical Genius Illusion:
Cynical people are seen as smarter, but sizable research suggests they actually tend to be dumber. Cynicism is not a sign of intelligence but a substitute for it, a way to shield oneself from betrayal & disappointment without having to actually think.
https://twitter.com/G_S_Bhogal/status/1728436088446894126?t=nc_CPdOOl_1MsXmqN0DN_g&s=19
The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.
One of the more significant Prime Minister’s Questions…Starmer mocked and humiliated Sunak with a prime ministerial confidence…with echoes of Smith/ Blair re Major…will have further knocked Sunak’s confidence…Tory MPs will be more miserable..a misery that feeds on itself.
It is one of the few high end restaurants I've been to where paying the bill feels like a reasonable deal - you definitely get your moneys worth there. Incredible food, tons of good staff.
Edit - beaten to it.
Rishi Sunak is "the man with the reverse Midas touch," says Keir Starmer, "everything he touches turns to... maybe the home secretary can help me out?"
The tweeter is right of centre himself so he’s not making a partisan jibe against the right.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/opinion/israel-palestinians-war-iran.html
I suggest you are a victim of Luxury Goods Syndrome. BECAUSE you pay a lot of money for all this faff and absurdity you cherish it more. Otherwise you’d feel horribly cheated
It’s like the way people always overrate 600 page books they’ve waded through. If you conclude at the end the book is crap that means you’ve wasted endless hours on crap
See: Veblen Goods
And he is trapped trying to keep his party together as most of them descend into civil war.
OK, Major and May endured worse humiliation for longer. But frankly, they were better people, more in control of any tetchy instincts, than their successor.
If you like barbecued dog, it’s the place to be
I was on a call with a bunch of Argentinian colleagues yesterday, investigating what one of our clients could or couldn’t do in the face of regulatory and fiscal hurdles.
I asked whether the recent election of their own chainsaw wielding Truss might change any of our conclusions, and received a heartfelt message of hope for better times from my interlocutor, which her colleagues all seemed to echo.
So Milei seems popular among at least one little grouping of cosmopolitan urban professional types.
I think they have a point. Argentina badly needs to open itself up to international trade and norms. It’s just a shame its architect of change talks to his dead dog and wants to legalise the selling of children.
Lots of people go out to eat for the company, or to avoid the cooking/washing up. I like cooking and entertaining so I go out for the food. If I am going out for the company I go to an ordinary restaurant, mainly because the people I am dining with don't want a Michelin star meal.
Go less often and treat yourself.
If the party wants strong economic growth it will need to think radically.
By Andrew Marr"
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2023/11/andrew-marr-labour-rejoin-european-single-market
First went there on someone else's dime, as well.