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It’s Acropolis Now for Rishi Sunak – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited December 2023 in General
It’s Acropolis Now for Rishi Sunak – politicalbetting.com

Where do Britons think the Parthenon Sculptures / Elgin Marbles should be kept?In Britain: 15%In Greece: 49%Don't mind either way: 26%https://t.co/yrYpjDEuBb pic.twitter.com/B4aBAl0OLT

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.
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    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.

    What's so difficult for him about meeting a friendly foreign leader and having a disagreement about something broadly trivial in the big scheme of things? What happens when he needs to meet Xi or a Putin successor or Trump v2 to discuss something important?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    I hope you all appreciate my subtle puns.

    We don't appreciate subtle puns in this place. Nobody appreciated my awesome pun on the last thread about a dog being enhanced in a lab.

    You'll be fine, however. You've found your path, an on it you will go.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited November 2023
    I hadn't read the rest of the thread header when I posted that. And I Midas well not have bothered given the lack of subtlety.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.

    What's so difficult for him about meeting a friendly foreign leader and having a disagreement about something broadly trivial in the big scheme of things? What happens when he needs to meet Xi or a Putin successor or Trump v2 to discuss something important?
    Let's hope he doesn't.

    Last time around, Johnson pointed at Corbyn and said 'really?' And, spooked by how close the Jezaster and his mates had come to power, enough people shuddered, nodded, and voted Tory.

    But this time, it will be Starmer pointing at Sunak, Truss and Johnson and saying 'really?' And I do not see what answer the Tories can give.

    It may not get him a majority but my jaw will hit the floor if Labour aren't the largest party. Even if Starmer proves as useless on the stump as May - and it's hard to imagine he'll be as foolishly complacent as she was - the Tories have no credibility left at all.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938
    Things I don't think are important, number 86: The Elgin Marbles.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,938

    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.

    What's so difficult for him about meeting a friendly foreign leader and having a disagreement about something broadly trivial in the big scheme of things? What happens when he needs to meet Xi or a Putin successor or Trump v2 to discuss something important?
    Simples: he hands them the Elgin Marbles. It will completely throw them off.
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    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,886
    edited November 2023
    15% core vote strategy.

    The problem with stuff like this is it alienates everyone who doesn't watch 12 hours of GB news per day. The motorists and pensioners messaging is much better given most of us are, or will soon be, one of either.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    One of my tutees is Greek.

    She didn't use the word, being naturally polite, but the gist of her views is that Sunak is a twat.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137
    Parthenon is such sweet sorrow.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,772

    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.

    What's so difficult for him about meeting a friendly foreign leader and having a disagreement about something broadly trivial in the big scheme of things? What happens when he needs to meet Xi or a Putin successor or Trump v2 to discuss something important?
    He’ll bend over and get banged mercilessly! He picked this pathetic fight with Mitsotakis because he wanted to look tough and was appealing to the Empire crowd . Who think it would be heresy to return the marbles and a sign that GB is weak .

    He wouldn’t try this pathetic behaviour with in his eyes a stronger more influential world leader . Of course the clueless clown forgot that Greece is part of the EU and any future agreements with the UK need unanimous support .
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    It's fairly standard, especially when approaching election periods (which given no set date includes now), for leaders to engage in some performative spats with otherwise friendly nations. Its usually harmless and probably anticipated by the others.

    The problem here is a) even if people agree the marbles should not go back very few will care a great deal, and b) these spats are not supposed to escalate to full on rows, which can be damaging.

    Cancelling meetings because a foreign leader said something utterly predictable, even if we accept the claim he'd said he would not, is just very disproportionate and looks weak.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    nico679 said:

    It's a stupid row, whatever the cause, and a competent, let alone good, politician should have avoided this.

    Sunak is not competent.

    What's so difficult for him about meeting a friendly foreign leader and having a disagreement about something broadly trivial in the big scheme of things? What happens when he needs to meet Xi or a Putin successor or Trump v2 to discuss something important?
    He’ll bend over and get banged mercilessly! He picked this pathetic fight with Mitsotakis because he wanted to look tough and was appealing to the Empire crowd . Who think it would be heresy to return the marbles and a sign that GB is weak .

    He wouldn’t try this pathetic behaviour with in his eyes a stronger more influential world leader . Of course the clueless clown forgot that Greece is part of the EU and any future agreements with the UK need unanimous support .
    That does go both ways - this is a very silly row which Sunak caused, but if Greece and the EU were to hold back an otherwise acceptable agreement in protest at him acting like a cock that would be similarly self defeating and disproportionate.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    Sunak has made himself look a real Cretan over this.

    These puns are awful. Surely we are beta than this?
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    ydoethur said:

    One of my tutees is Greek.

    She didn't use the word, being naturally polite, but the gist of her views is that Sunak is a twat.
    Bright girl.

    Cosplay Maggie strikes again. The cartoon version of our greatest dead Prime Minister would have put her foot down forcefully. But in her case, including having the meeting to make Britain's Point Clear.

    Rishi has been told that Maggie was Tough With Foreigners, but has neither the wit or heft to reproduce the moves convincingly.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    edited November 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Sunak has made himself look a real Cretan over this.

    These puns are awful. Surely we are beta than this?
    Does anyone give one iota how bad puns are? I Pitta the person who obsesses over such things.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    I see see most Brits back the British Museum Poseidon what should happen with the sculptures.

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    Foxy said:

    I see see most Brits back the British Museum Poseidon what should happen with the sculptures.

    Yes, their freedom of action should be unfeta'd.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    edited November 2023
    Yay, I am in the majority. Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

    Bloody stupid thing to fall out with a useful ally about.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    Is it really worth putting relations with Greece in the deep frieze for this ?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    ydoethur said:

    I hope you all appreciate my subtle puns.

    We don't appreciate subtle puns in this place. Nobody appreciated my awesome pun on the last thread about a dog being enhanced in a lab.
    I'm sorry your efforts met a stony response.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279
    Why am I commenting on this again.

    Just listened to the "BBC's Ramallah correspondent" who explained how unfair it was for the IDF to have arrested a fifteen year old girl for the perfectly understandable act, given the occupation of East Jerusalem, of trying to stab an IDF soldier with a pair of scissors.

    Fair enough.

    But why then did the Today presenter feel the need to say they had been in touch with the IDF for their version of events if their own correspondent was providing an unbiased report.

    Poor woman probably had a knife to her throat while she was broadcasting.
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    The more interesting point about the Elgin Marbles row is that the Greeks declined a consolation meeting with Oliver Dowden, the deputy prime minister.

    This might be because the Greek Embassy reads the newspapers and saw that Nadine Dorries in her book, The Plot, described Dowden in unflattering terms.

    I have never heard anyone talk for so long and say so little. Oliver used a hundred words when ten would do, and when he finished speaking I wasn’t the only one left inwardly groaning and wondering at the greatest mystery of Cabinet: how a man of so little discernible talent had risen so far.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    TOPPING said:

    Why am I commenting on this again.

    Just listened to the "BBC's Ramallah correspondent" who explained how unfair it was for the IDF to have arrested a fifteen year old girl for the perfectly understandable act, given the occupation of East Jerusalem, of trying to stab an IDF soldier with a pair of scissors.

    Fair enough.

    But why then did the Today presenter feel the need to say they had been in touch with the IDF for their version of events if their own correspondent was providing an unbiased report.

    Poor woman probably had a knife to her throat while she was broadcasting.

    What I noted yesterday was that the returned hostages included a 4 year old boy and three year old twins. It wasn’t dwelt on. Stealing young children and holding them hostage was apparently not worthy of comment.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    The more interesting point about the Elgin Marbles row is that the Greeks declined a consolation meeting with Oliver Dowden, the deputy prime minister.

    This might be because the Greek Embassy reads the newspapers and saw that Nadine Dorries in her book, The Plot, described Dowden in unflattering terms.

    I have never heard anyone talk for so long and say so little. Oliver used a hundred words when ten would do, and when he finished speaking I wasn’t the only one left inwardly groaning and wondering at the greatest mystery of Cabinet: how a man of so little discernible talent had risen so far.

    The lack of self awareness in that comment is mind blowing.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472

    The more interesting point about the Elgin Marbles row is that the Greeks declined a consolation meeting with Oliver Dowden, the deputy prime minister.

    This might be because the Greek Embassy reads the newspapers and saw that Nadine Dorries in her book, The Plot, described Dowden in unflattering terms.

    I have never heard anyone talk for so long and say so little. Oliver used a hundred words when ten would do, and when he finished speaking I wasn’t the only one left inwardly groaning and wondering at the greatest mystery of Cabinet: how a man of so little discernible talent had risen so far.

    A surprisingly accurate assessment - but a bit rich coming from her.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    DavidL said:

    The more interesting point about the Elgin Marbles row is that the Greeks declined a consolation meeting with Oliver Dowden, the deputy prime minister.

    This might be because the Greek Embassy reads the newspapers and saw that Nadine Dorries in her book, The Plot, described Dowden in unflattering terms.

    I have never heard anyone talk for so long and say so little. Oliver used a hundred words when ten would do, and when he finished speaking I wasn’t the only one left inwardly groaning and wondering at the greatest mystery of Cabinet: how a man of so little discernible talent had risen so far.

    The lack of self awareness in that comment is mind blowing.
    TBF, no one went so far as to make Nadine deputy PM.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    Foxy said:

    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.

    Probably the former, given our likely next government's view on the matter.
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    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    Note that PNAS is a rather more reputable publication than (for instance) the Lancet.

    The neurobiology of stress: Vulnerability, resilience, and major depression
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2312662120
    Over the past few years, the perceived level of psychological stress has risen dramatically across the globe due to a combination of events including the long-lasting Covid-19 pandemic, civil unrest, escalation of political instability across the globe, and climate change that has triggered major environmental and economic perturbations. The consequences of this broad-scale increase in stress are only beginning to be appreciated, but evidence suggests that we are facing a second pandemic of mood and anxiety disorders, including major depression, anxiety, and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). This Special Issue entitled “The Neurobiology of Stress: Vulnerability, Resilience, and Major Depression” is intended to ask “How can science help?” Our hope is to initiate a broad discussion on the power of basic and clinical scientific tools to confront these challenges and to offer strategies for treatment and prevention...
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    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    Why am I commenting on this again.

    Just listened to the "BBC's Ramallah correspondent" who explained how unfair it was for the IDF to have arrested a fifteen year old girl for the perfectly understandable act, given the occupation of East Jerusalem, of trying to stab an IDF soldier with a pair of scissors.

    Fair enough.

    But why then did the Today presenter feel the need to say they had been in touch with the IDF for their version of events if their own correspondent was providing an unbiased report.

    Poor woman probably had a knife to her throat while she was broadcasting.

    What I noted yesterday was that the returned hostages included a 4 year old boy and three year old twins. It wasn’t dwelt on. Stealing young children and holding them hostage was apparently not worthy of comment.
    Almost everyone condemned taking hostages, including the children. (The BBC showed a video of released child hostages greeting their pet dog.) Russia has taken Ukrainian children. This too has been condemned.
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    If only Homer were with us still to chronicle this Greek tragedy - The Sillylad.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148
    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    The more I read about the Fuller case, the more appalling it gets. Not my experience of hospital mortuaries or post-mortem rooms.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1729497138013323481?t=RE9yVCG30RjgSrK55xNfHg&s=19
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    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    I've not really noticed, but I think it makes sense. Parthenon Frieze is more accurate. As a few on here yesterday mentioned, people thought they were a collection of prized glass marbles!
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,339
    Foxy said:

    The more I read about the Fuller case, the more appalling it gets. Not my experience of hospital mortuaries or post-mortem rooms.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1729497138013323481?t=RE9yVCG30RjgSrK55xNfHg&s=19

    I can't read it. The very thought of it makes me feel sick.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875
    ...
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    Foxy said:

    The more I read about the Fuller case, the more appalling it gets. Not my experience of hospital mortuaries or post-mortem rooms.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1729497138013323481?t=RE9yVCG30RjgSrK55xNfHg&s=19

    His Wikipedia page is quite something.



    🎶I just died in your arms tonight🎶
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717

    The more interesting point about the Elgin Marbles row is that the Greeks declined a consolation meeting with Oliver Dowden, the deputy prime minister.

    This might be because the Greek Embassy reads the newspapers and saw that Nadine Dorries in her book, The Plot, described Dowden in unflattering terms.

    I have never heard anyone talk for so long and say so little. Oliver used a hundred words when ten would do, and when he finished speaking I wasn’t the only one left inwardly groaning and wondering at the greatest mystery of Cabinet: how a man of so little discernible talent had risen so far.

    I'm the worst person to note this, but she could have stopped at sentence one to avoid the accusations of lack of self awareness.

    Foxy said:

    The more I read about the Fuller case, the more appalling it gets. Not my experience of hospital mortuaries or post-mortem rooms.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1729497138013323481?t=RE9yVCG30RjgSrK55xNfHg&s=19

    I can't read it. The very thought of it makes me feel sick.
    For once the BBCs tendency towards euphemism and generalities was appreciated.
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    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    Unpopular said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    I've not really noticed, but I think it makes sense. Parthenon Frieze is more accurate. As a few on here yesterday mentioned, people thought they were a collection of prized glass marbles!
    I imagine not enough people in the UK cared enough thus far to adopt the name, but now its got some traction it makes for an immediate way to establish position.
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    In other depressing news, the inquest into the death of Ruth Perry has opened. She was the headteacher who killed herself after an Ofsted inspection. Some highlights here;

    https://twitter.com/Edmund_B_W/status/1729712180713451591

    I guess we should be glad the the inquest system still works and that most people accept that institutional game playing stops once you have a dead person.

    Most people.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    What difference would that make? He's a never Trumper now, she's a Trump supporter in practice since despite running against him anyone with hopes of holding office again cannot be too much against him, how much overlap in voters would they have?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    Haley vs Harris is definitely possible and raises the interesting footnote of two candidates of Indian descent campaigning for POTUS.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    On topic, I’m quite surprised that more people didn’t tick DK or ‘not bothered’

    I wonder if simply a fair chunk of people don’t really know what they are, and are responding to the situation as described in the question, without context of the apparently vast cultural and political significance some loons believe them to hold for Britain.

    I do also wonder whether Rishi has reverse-Midas-touched the issue and folk assume that because he’s in favour of keeping them, it’s probably wrong.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    Haley vs Harris is definitely possible and raises the interesting footnote of two candidates of Indian descent campaigning for POTUS.
    More significantly, perhaps, a lady GOP candidate might help mitigate the abortion issue in the election.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Yes, I don't care about these much one way or the other but if we give them back to Greece we need to ask for something in return. One of their islands as a camp for asylum seekers, money, something cultural - just as long as it's not yet another spineless surrender for no gain.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
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    kle4 said:

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    What difference would that make? He's a never Trumper now, she's a Trump supporter in practice since despite running against him anyone with hopes of holding office again cannot be too much against him, how much overlap in voters would they have?
    Indie voters can vote in N Hampshire. Christie has put everything he has into that state. It's his one and last stand.

    Iowa: who knows. Trump wins easily, but if Haley comes a good 2nd? Santis is looking like he is out of it in that case.

    N Hampshire: Haley could win.

    S Carolina: her home state.

    There is a possible but very thin path for Haley via a fantastic start in early three states. If she can become the only not-Trump candidate, then just maybe he can be stopped from destroying the country.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    edited November 2023
    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Yes, I don't care about these much one way or the other but if we give them back to Greece we need to ask for something in return. One of their islands as a camp for asylum seekers, money, something cultural - just as long as it's not yet another spineless surrender for no gain.
    That suggestion would be particularly tin eared.

    Refugee camps on Greek islands are once again overcrowded
    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/07/refugee-camps-on-greek-islands-are-once-again-overcrowded_6155562_4.html#

    And a return of the marbles would almost certainly lead to greater cultural artefact lending anyway.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,386
    Ghedebrav said:

    On topic, I’m quite surprised that more people didn’t tick DK or ‘not bothered’

    I wonder if simply a fair chunk of people don’t really know what they are, and are responding to the situation as described in the question, without context of the apparently vast cultural and political significance some loons believe them to hold for Britain.

    I do also wonder whether Rishi has reverse-Midas-touched the issue and folk assume that because he’s in favour of keeping them, it’s probably wrong.

    Yes, I'd be surprised if a majority had even a hazy idea of what they are.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.

    You could also say those two anniversaries would be good times for Greece to abandon their claims on the highly overrated Elgin Marbles as a sign of gratitude for the help given in achieving their independence.

    In a similar way the Wellington Museum is filled with paintings from the former Spanish Royal collection donated as gratitude for the help in liberating the country from the French.

  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Not sure I'd put the words "competence" and "British Museum" in the same sentence, given what we've recently learnt about the latter's loss of artefacts. Osborne might have better spent his time ensuring the staff were not stealing.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Yes, I don't care about these much one way or the other but if we give them back to Greece we need to ask for something in return. One of their islands as a camp for asylum seekers, money, something cultural - just as long as it's not yet another spineless surrender for no gain.
    Given that the migrant crisis in the Med was largely facilitated by Britain and France turning Libya into a failed state that is a playground for people traffickers, I’m not sure we have much of a case to demand they turn Zante into N’Djamena-sur-Mer.

    And in any case, returning them as a gesture of magnanimity has a value of its own.
  • Options
    The polling on the previous thread is imbecilic.

    GDP is a measure of economic activity so immigrants will help it increase if they do nothing but eat, sleep and shit.

    GDP per capita is the measure that is important.

    And more important than that is the ratio of wealth creation to wealth consumption.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    Why am I commenting on this again.

    Just listened to the "BBC's Ramallah correspondent" who explained how unfair it was for the IDF to have arrested a fifteen year old girl for the perfectly understandable act, given the occupation of East Jerusalem, of trying to stab an IDF soldier with a pair of scissors.

    Fair enough.

    But why then did the Today presenter feel the need to say they had been in touch with the IDF for their version of events if their own correspondent was providing an unbiased report.

    Poor woman probably had a knife to her throat while she was broadcasting.

    What I noted yesterday was that the returned hostages included a 4 year old boy and three year old twins. It wasn’t dwelt on. Stealing young children and holding them hostage was apparently not worthy of comment.
    An 8 month old baby was taken. I am very surprised he has not been among the first to be released.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
    Like whoever called them Elgin Marbles in the first place I guess. They were part of the Parthenon for a fair while longer prior to their rescue/theft.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    edited November 2023
    Eabhal said:

    15% core vote strategy.

    The problem with stuff like this is it alienates everyone who doesn't watch 12 hours of GB news per day. The motorists and pensioners messaging is much better given most of us are, or will soon be, one of either.

    I think most supporters of the Elgin Marbles remaining in the British Museum would have liked Rishi Sunak to say so to the Greek PM. It's unfair to them to characterise them as supporters of Rishi being a bellend.

    I think the question in the poll is phrased in a fairly biased way, but the result does not surprise me.

    I think it's "Cookies Law' again. This Governmwnt expresses rudely and performatively 'right wing' talking points in a way that discredits the right, without actually being or doing anything right wing.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    Foxy said:

    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.

    You could also say those two anniversaries would be good times for Greece to abandon their claims on the highly overrated Elgin Marbles as a sign of gratitude for the help given in achieving their independence.

    It was aristocratic Grand Tourists such as Elgin and Byron who roused the British government to pro-Greek independence. They were creatures of their age, but not villains.

  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,887

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    If you visit the Parthenon, you'll notice the name they use is not "The Elgin Marbles".
  • Options
    No link between internet use and poor mental health, according to Oxford boffins

    'We looked very hard for a smoking gun linking technology and well-being and we didn't find it'

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/29/internet_mental_health_study/
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,593
    Common People would be a very short song if Jarvis Cocker adopted the same attitude as Rishi Sunak.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Not sure I'd put the words "competence" and "British Museum" in the same sentence, given what we've recently learnt about the latter's loss of artefacts. Osborne might have better spent his time ensuring the staff were not stealing.
    Also sort of gives the lie to the notion that they are safer in the BM.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Giving away something very valuable in exchange for a temporary loan of something less valuable ?

    That's the competence of a shadow Chancellor who failed to predict a recession which happened.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,875

    Common People would be a very short song if Jarvis Cocker adopted the same attitude as Rishi Sunak.

    Is that another crack about his height...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Yes, I don't care about these much one way or the other but if we give them back to Greece we need to ask for something in return. One of their islands as a camp for asylum seekers, money, something cultural - just as long as it's not yet another spineless surrender for no gain.
    That suggestion would be particularly tin eared.

    Refugee camps on Greek islands are once again overcrowded
    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/07/refugee-camps-on-greek-islands-are-once-again-overcrowded_6155562_4.html#

    And a return of the marbles would almost certainly lead to greater cultural artefact lending anyway.
    I don't see what that has to do with it. I agree with Fishing in principle. The UK can't really afford to be the global pushover that senior civil servants, Labour, and many figures within the Tories want us to be. We can of course afford to send back some sculptures, but not the general direction of travel.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472
    edited November 2023
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
    No one is 'changing words'; they've always been part of the Parthenon frieze - along with some metopes and pedimental figures.
    So 'Parthenon sculptures' tells you rather more about them than 'Elgin marbles'.

    This whole episode is weird. It's as though we can go back to behaving as though we were still an imperial power, dealing with foreign leaders as mild inconveniences.
    While temperamentally that might appeal to to the Tory party, even most of Sunak's MPs are reportedly bemused by his stance, and can't understand what he's aiming to achieve.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
    No one is 'changing words'; they've always been part of the Parthenon frieze - along with some metopes and pedimental figures.
    So 'Parthenon sculptures' tells you rather more about them than 'Elgin marbles'.

    This whole episode is weird. It's as though we can go back to behaving as though we were still an imperial power, dealing with foreign leaders as mild inconveniences.
    While temperamentally that might appeal to to the Tory party, even most of Sunak's MPs are reportedly bemused by his stance, and can't understand what he's aiming to achieve.
    Rule one when considering Sunak’s actions: remember he is crap at politics.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636
    ydoethur said:

    Sunak has made himself look a real Cretan over this.

    These puns are awful. Surely we are beta than this?
    Alpha minute, let me 'ave a go. Seems as easy as pi...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    Not sure I'd put the words "competence" and "British Museum" in the same sentence, given what we've recently learnt about the latter's loss of artefacts. Osborne might have better spent his time ensuring the staff were not stealing.
    He sacked the curator concerned
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    The exchange idea is worth exploring, though I think to characterise Osborne's sinecure at the BM as anything other than an opportunity to put into practise his wokery and deep affection for any country that isn't the UK is a stretch. The collections are being widely robbed and put on Ebay under his 'stewardship' let's remember.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,317
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.

    You could also say those two anniversaries would be good times for Greece to abandon their claims on the highly overrated Elgin Marbles as a sign of gratitude for the help given in achieving their independence.

    It was aristocratic Grand Tourists such as Elgin and Byron who roused the British government to pro-Greek independence. They were creatures of their age, but not villains.

    The comedy when the British Philhellenes tried speaking ancient Greek to Greeks....

    There is an attempt to argue (by partisans of the er... non-western world), that Philhellenism was a Western Imperialist Construct. And that the Greeks were ever so happy being part of the Sofa Empire.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980

    kle4 said:

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    What difference would that make? He's a never Trumper now, she's a Trump supporter in practice since despite running against him anyone with hopes of holding office again cannot be too much against him, how much overlap in voters would they have?
    Indie voters can vote in N Hampshire. Christie has put everything he has into that state. It's his one and last stand.

    Iowa: who knows. Trump wins easily, but if Haley comes a good 2nd? Santis is looking like he is out of it in that case.

    N Hampshire: Haley could win.

    S Carolina: her home state.

    There is a possible but very thin path for Haley via a fantastic start in early three states. If she can become the only not-Trump candidate, then just maybe he can be stopped from destroying the country.
    Trump will run as an independent anyway even if he doesn't get the nomination
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into

    A better solution might be simply to scan and reproduce the Elgin Marbles down to the nearest millimetre. After all, the Natural History Museum is full of fake whales and dinosaurs.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    What difference would that make? He's a never Trumper now, she's a Trump supporter in practice since despite running against him anyone with hopes of holding office again cannot be too much against him, how much overlap in voters would they have?
    Indie voters can vote in N Hampshire. Christie has put everything he has into that state. It's his one and last stand.

    Iowa: who knows. Trump wins easily, but if Haley comes a good 2nd? Santis is looking like he is out of it in that case.

    N Hampshire: Haley could win.

    S Carolina: her home state.

    There is a possible but very thin path for Haley via a fantastic start in early three states. If she can become the only not-Trump candidate, then just maybe he can be stopped from destroying the country.
    Trump will run as an independent anyway even if he doesn't get the nomination
    That would be excellent.

    For Biden.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    Morning All!
    Seems petty and childish by Rishi. All he had to do was say, politely, that he’d be prepared to talk to the British Museum.

    On a separate, but perhaps related matter, as someone who is 5ft 6in, can we have an end to jokes about the PM’s height. Its quality, not quantity, which counts!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,317

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    The exchange idea is worth exploring, though I think to characterise Osborne's sinecure at the BM as anything other than an opportunity to put into practise his wokery and deep affection for any country that isn't the UK is a stretch. The collections are being widely robbed and put on Ebay under his 'stewardship' let's remember.
    Worth pointing out that, with laser scanning and multi axis CNC, you could carve a replica set of marbles that would be accurate to a tiny fraction of a mm.

    Colouring them to match the original would be fairly straightforward.

    A few million quid - get tech billionaire to fund it. Bit like the Babbage Engine at the Science Museum - a Microsoft chap funded building the printer. Along with getting a copy of both the Engine and Printer for himself.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,909
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
    No one is 'changing words'; they've always been part of the Parthenon frieze - along with some metopes and pedimental figures.
    So 'Parthenon sculptures' tells you rather more about them than 'Elgin marbles'.

    This whole episode is weird. It's as though we can go back to behaving as though we were still an imperial power, dealing with foreign leaders as mild inconveniences.
    While temperamentally that might appeal to to the Tory party, even most of Sunak's MPs are reportedly bemused by his stance, and can't understand what he's aiming to achieve.
    Regardless of whether it was worth getting wound up over the marbles and cancelling the meeting, which I don’t think it was, isn’t it normal that when leaders of countries meet the Sherpas in the diplomatic corps agree beforehand what will be discussed, what won’t be discussed and what can’t be discussed?

    When we send Lord Cameron to China and everyone is demanding he discusses the treatment of the Uighur people we get a bit of nonsense about how of course he will mention it but in reality there is no way he does. If he shows up in Beijing and starts talking about the Uighur ps you can guarantee the meeting will be cancelled.

    The terms of the meeting with the Greek PM were agreed beforehand where it was agreed that the marbles were not for discussion. The Greek PM should have said publicly that he was cancelling his trip to the UK and meeting Sunak because Sunak refuses to discuss the marbles. Instead he agreed the terms then reneged. It’s disingenuous as inevitably it will cause a furore.

    I’m sure that if Erdogan was going to meet the Greek PM and it was agreed in advance that recognition of northern Cyprus was off the agenda and Erdogan started meeting Greek opposition leaders and discussing the matter then the meeting would be cancelled too.

    So it was silly by Sunak but shitty behaviour by the Greek PM too.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into

    A better solution might be simply to scan and reproduce the Elgin Marbles down to the nearest millimetre. After all, the Natural History Museum is full of fake whales and dinosaurs.
    A modern equivalent of this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albert_Museum)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    There is a serious issue here over how various collections were acquired. At least there was some pretense at legal purchase with these sculptures, though probably Elgin would have got a firm no a couple of decades later from independent Greece rather than the Ottomans. Many items such as the Benin Bronzes were acquired as spoils of conquest by looting.

    While it would be reasonable for culturally significant objects to be returned and displayed safely and in context, others are more problematic. Not just the Benin Bronzes to Nigeria, which has very little international tourism, but also the Assyrian artefacts to Iraq.

    There is too the issue that while we should prize artefacts of British origin, ones from further afield are necessary for a broader understanding of world cultures.

    The Parthenon sculptures are so culturally significant that I think they should return, perhaps to help commemorate the bicentenary of us helping free the Greeks from Ottoman oppression. This would be either the 2027 anniversary of the battle of Navarino, or perhaps the 2030 Treaty of London by which Greek independence was formally recognised.

    You could also say those two anniversaries would be good times for Greece to abandon their claims on the highly overrated Elgin Marbles as a sign of gratitude for the help given in achieving their independence.

    It was aristocratic Grand Tourists such as Elgin and Byron who roused the British government to pro-Greek independence. They were creatures of their age, but not villains.

    Greek independence was achieved because so many upper class Englishmen harboured sexual fantasies about King Leonidas and the Spartans.

    Palmerston and Disraeli were unusual in being fairly pro-Turk. I thought it fascinating reading Guide Books on Crete recently, that were full of vitriol towards the Turks, while noting quaintly that Crete's Turkish (ie Greek Muslim) population "left" the island in the early 1900's.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Nikki Haley bags Koch endorsement in bid to replace Donald Trump
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67558465

    That's her advertising budget sorted.

    Haley is generally priced at:-
    12/1 for the Presidency
    8/1 - 10/1 for the GOP nomination
    11/2 - 7/1 for the GOP vice-president nomination (Trump's running mate?)

    Whether you can get on at these prices taken from Oddschecker is another question.

    What is interesting though is the books (above) have Haley shortest to be the VP pick (and some on PB have wondered if she will be Trump's running mate). Not so on Betfair.

    9/1 for the Presidency
    13/2 for the GOP nomination
    13/1 for GOP VP nomination.

    Christie needs to stand aside now and give her N Hampshire.

    What difference would that make? He's a never Trumper now, she's a Trump supporter in practice since despite running against him anyone with hopes of holding office again cannot be too much against him, how much overlap in voters would they have?
    Indie voters can vote in N Hampshire. Christie has put everything he has into that state. It's his one and last stand.

    Iowa: who knows. Trump wins easily, but if Haley comes a good 2nd? Santis is looking like he is out of it in that case.

    N Hampshire: Haley could win.

    S Carolina: her home state.

    There is a possible but very thin path for Haley via a fantastic start in early three states. If she can become the only not-Trump candidate, then just maybe he can be stopped from destroying the country.
    Trump will run as an independent anyway even if he doesn't get the nomination
    That would be excellent.

    For Biden.

    There are a lot "sore loser" State laws that would make that difficult.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,636
    HYUFD said:

    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into

    Typical HYUFD poll twisting there. We can all read the poll and see that Sunak is only aligned with 25% of Tory voters and 15% of all voters. I can't think why you bother to pretend otherwise.

    Applying your method to the Brexit referendum, only 37% of voters wanted to Leave - the important point is that even fewer wanted to Remain.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,449
    edited November 2023
    Good morning everyone.

    This story is ancient history. We already have another freshly manufactured Hail Mary Pass in from Chez Rishi this morning.

    This Government is going to save the world by creating a new National Park in either a) The Cotswolds, b) The Chilterns or c) Dorset. Nothing to do with 'normally' Conservative areas needing to be shored up.

    A slightly sticky wicket for Rishi, remembering that:

    a) National Park funding has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.
    b) Excise Duty on petrol and diesel has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67538625
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    edited November 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into

    A better solution might be simply to scan and reproduce the Elgin Marbles down to the nearest millimetre. After all, the Natural History Museum is full of fake whales and dinosaurs.
    They should get Bobby Fingers to do it.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    This story is ancient history. We already have another freshly manufactured Hail Mary Pass in from Chez Rishi this morning.

    This Government is going to save the world by creating a new National Park in either a) The Cotswolds, b) The Chilterns or c) Dorset. Nothing to do with 'normally' Conservative areas needing to be shored up.

    A slightly sticky wicket for Rishi, remembering that:

    a) National Park funding has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.
    b) Excise Duty on petrol and diesel has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67538625

    See my 'Rishi rule one' below.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001

    HYUFD said:

    Only just over a third of Conservative voters want to return the Marbles to Greece compared to the majority of Labour and LD voters, so there are some reasons for Sunak standing his ground on this issue.

    A better solution however would be some form of loan arrangement as the British Museum is looking into

    A better solution might be simply to scan and reproduce the Elgin Marbles down to the nearest millimetre. After all, the Natural History Museum is full of fake whales and dinosaurs.
    A modern equivalent of this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Courts_(Victoria_and_Albert_Museum)
    I love this place - it's extraordinary and sort of bizarre.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    This story is ancient history. We already have another freshly manufactured Hail Mary Pass in from Chez Rishi this morning.

    This Government is going to save the world by creating a new National Park in either a) The Cotswolds, b) The Chilterns or c) Dorset. Nothing to do with 'normally' Conservative areas needing to be shored up.

    A slightly sticky wicket for Rishi, remembering that:

    a) National Park funding has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.
    b) Excise Duty on petrol and diesel has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67538625

    That's quite clever as a way of salting the earth for Keir's housebuilding programme. I assume that's the idea.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    The culture warriors, as always, are those trying to change things from things as they are - or were until yesterday to those as they think they ought to be.
    Always be very suspicious of anyone trying to change words.
    No one is 'changing words'; they've always been part of the Parthenon frieze - along with some metopes and pedimental figures.
    So 'Parthenon sculptures' tells you rather more about them than 'Elgin marbles'.

    This whole episode is weird. It's as though we can go back to behaving as though we were still an imperial power, dealing with foreign leaders as mild inconveniences.
    While temperamentally that might appeal to to the Tory party, even most of Sunak's MPs are reportedly bemused by his stance, and can't understand what he's aiming to achieve.
    I don't really care, but the Osborne/Starmer idea (not sure who thought of it first) of rotating them for Greek artifacts on loan seems a sensible solution. A question: since everyone seems to agree that these are very important artifacts which benefit enormously from being on view - how many of you have actually been to see them? I certainly haven't, and doubt if many have, but perhaps I'm wrong.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,472

    DavidL said:

    I heard on Today that George Osborne, head of the British Museum, was willing to lend them back to Greece in exchange for the loan of some stuff that is not normally allowed to leave Greece which sounds like a win win for the Museum.

    The contrast between this competence and Sunak’s petulance is actually painful.

    The exchange idea is worth exploring, though I think to characterise Osborne's sinecure at the BM as anything other than an opportunity to put into practise his wokery and deep affection for any country that isn't the UK is a stretch. The collections are being widely robbed and put on Ebay under his 'stewardship' let's remember.
    It takes a particular kind of ignorance
    to imply as you do that he's responsible for the thefts which occurred.
    Particularly as most of the thefts occurred long before he became chair of trustees.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,001
    TimS said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    This story is ancient history. We already have another freshly manufactured Hail Mary Pass in from Chez Rishi this morning.

    This Government is going to save the world by creating a new National Park in either a) The Cotswolds, b) The Chilterns or c) Dorset. Nothing to do with 'normally' Conservative areas needing to be shored up.

    A slightly sticky wicket for Rishi, remembering that:

    a) National Park funding has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.
    b) Excise Duty on petrol and diesel has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67538625

    That's quite clever as a way of salting the earth for Keir's housebuilding programme. I assume that's the idea.
    Occam's razor would suggest that it's just simply another crap idea; I'm not sure Sunak is capable of that kind of 4D chess; more of a Snakes and Ladders chap.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906
    edited November 2023
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    This story is ancient history. We already have another freshly manufactured Hail Mary Pass in from Chez Rishi this morning.

    This Government is going to save the world by creating a new National Park in either a) The Cotswolds, b) The Chilterns or c) Dorset. Nothing to do with 'normally' Conservative areas needing to be shored up.

    A slightly sticky wicket for Rishi, remembering that:

    a) National Park funding has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.
    b) Excise Duty on petrol and diesel has been cut by 40% in real terms by the Conservative Government since 2010.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67538625

    The Tories haven't got everything right but as a driver, this has been a big tick in the box compared to Labour's ridiculous "fuel escalator". One of the reasons they have got the car driver's vote in the 2010s.
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