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It’s Acropolis Now for Rishi Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Nigelb said:

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    Starmer's Midas quip was even borderline funny, which is a first from him.
    The quip itself was mildly amusing; the follow-up aimed at Cleverly was ROFL good.
    Best kind of joke: the layered, multi-peak joke where several previous strands are progressively tied together and each punchline is funnier than the last. This was a 2-layer joke, the best get you to 3, 4 or even more.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    He has risen far too quickly to the highest office and, as ever, is being remorselessly 'found out' by it.

    And he is trapped trying to keep his party together as most of them descend into civil war.

    Rishi rose to be PM in 7 years and had Cabinet experience. Cameron rose to be PM in 9 years and had no Cabinet experience, yet seemed comfortable (they were more positive times despite lack of Tory majority).

    In a way the early rise to Cabinet seems not to have helped Truss or Sunak, as they seem to lack the skills at managing their colleagues and the public, too protected too soon.
  • Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    No, no subsidies. The governments says if you want to hire a widget maker then the minimum wage you must pay is 80% of the average widget makers salary in the UK. That assumes that the government also accepts there is a shortage of domestic widget makers available.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Just got an upgrade on BA, which is nice. Sadly short haul and driving at the other end though.

    I have the whole Olympique Lyonnais squad on the flight with me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    I just think it’s striking how the use has changed and recently.
    IanB2 said:

    Sunak’s dire PMQ will have surely made his problems worse.

    No one watches or cares, beyond weird obsessives like us.
    It influences the mood in Westminster, and the morale of activists, and seems through to journalists and those who are watching. That it doesn’t directly influence many voters first hand is missing the point.
    Yeah this is right. If he was being consistently impressive in the Commons that would influence the lobby journos and his party, which in turn would influence the general perception. Obviously it's not the most important thing, but it is significant.

    When his troops see him floundering like this, and are already restive - it doesn't help.
    His problem is that he’s trying to do Borisian Populism, and it’s simply not *him*

    He is a billionaire merchant banker with no deep rooted understanding of ordinary British society, I suspect. This is not a pejorative remark about his ethnicity, merely a fact, he’s the son of immigrants who went straight to Winchester College. I wonder if he has ever ordered a pint in a pub, for instance, or if he knows who Ronnie Radford is, and why

    I don’t dislike him. He should just be himself. A rich guy with a good brain going down to defeat, who has quite right wing beliefs on economics and culture (I believe him on all that)

    Scrap the populism, it will never work, leave it to others in the party. Be the dry but authentic technocrat and sneer at Starmer’s pathetic fence sitting, Corbyn-tolerance and economic ignorance (and Starmer is indeed an economic ignoramus with zero ideas)

    That might save a few seats

    You don't even have to go back as far as Ronnie Radford, some of the ruling classes don't even know who Conor McGregor is.
    I have an extremely high regard for myself, but even I don’t see myself as a member of the “ruling classes”

    I have no desire to rule anyone. Unless I am given the powers of a total dictator
    You're more of a sort of intellectual valet for the wealthy who aren't bright enough to have opinions and interests of their own.

    As you often point out, it's a privileged gig.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic.
    If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill.
    Proper first world problem.

    It really isn't a first world problem

    Think it through

    London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed

    Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches

    Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London

    Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)

    So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
    I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):

    1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.

    2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.

    So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
    Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
    No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.

    For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.

    This is Peak First World Problem.
    Tasting Memus are an abomination

    That is my Luxury Belief
    The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
    There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
    Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
    Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
    Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however.
    Edit - beaten to it.
    McDonald’s, Dominos or your local chippie are arguably other examples of the genre.
    Chippies are really complicated. Haddock or cod, sausage or Mars bar, peas mushy or round.
    Ordered a Haddock from a local chippie and had to wait 15 minutes, as Cod after Cod left the shop. Apparently I was the only bugger to ever ask for it it seems.

    I can't tell the difference anyway.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    No, no subsidies. The governments says if you want to hire a widget maker then the minimum wage you must pay is 80% of the average widget makers salary in the UK. That assumes that the government also accepts there is a shortage of domestic widget makers available.
    Is that 80% calculated by including the salaries of newly imported widgeters?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079

    glw said:

    The whole thing with Elgin Marbles isn't even a gotcha out of left field. Everybody knows the situation, knows that highly likely to get mentioned. Its like the Falklands, you know they want them back, it will be raised, there is a standard response, everybody moves on.

    Not just Sunak, but what morons do they have working in #10 for this to even become an issue.

    Its like going to a North African market and being shocked you have to do the whole dance of everybody getting good deal after much back and forth.

    Every time the Greeks ask for the Elgin Marbles we should chip a bit off of them and post it to them.
    Or offer to return them to the country that gave them to Lord Elgin (Turkey)
    Better yet, give them to the islands whose funds were looted by Pericles to build the Acropolis. It was imperialism - "Welcome to the Athenian Empire" - at sword point.
    They were willing to be reasonable - ask the Mytilenes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Chris said:

    Why don't the Tories just call an election and put us all out of their misery?

    Excellent idea.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    I just think it’s striking how the use has changed and recently.
    IanB2 said:

    Sunak’s dire PMQ will have surely made his problems worse.

    No one watches or cares, beyond weird obsessives like us.
    It influences the mood in Westminster, and the morale of activists, and seems through to journalists and those who are watching. That it doesn’t directly influence many voters first hand is missing the point.
    Yeah this is right. If he was being consistently impressive in the Commons that would influence the lobby journos and his party, which in turn would influence the general perception. Obviously it's not the most important thing, but it is significant.

    When his troops see him floundering like this, and are already restive - it doesn't help.
    His problem is that he’s trying to do Borisian Populism, and it’s simply not *him*

    He is a billionaire merchant banker with no deep rooted understanding of ordinary British society, I suspect. This is not a pejorative remark about his ethnicity, merely a fact, he’s the son of immigrants who went straight to Winchester College. I wonder if he has ever ordered a pint in a pub, for instance, or if he knows who Ronnie Radford is, and why

    I don’t dislike him. He should just be himself. A rich guy with a good brain going down to defeat, who has quite right wing beliefs on economics and culture (I believe him on all that)

    Scrap the populism, it will never work, leave it to others in the party. Be the dry but authentic technocrat and sneer at Starmer’s pathetic fence sitting, Corbyn-tolerance and economic ignorance (and Starmer is indeed an economic ignoramus with zero ideas)

    That might save a few seats

    You don't even have to go back as far as Ronnie Radford, some of the ruling classes don't even know who Conor McGregor is.
    I have an extremely high regard for myself, but even I don’t see myself as a member of the “ruling classes”

    I have no desire to rule anyone. Unless I am given the powers of a total dictator
    You're more of a sort of intellectual valet for the wealthy who aren't bright enough to have opinions and interests of their own.

    As you often point out, it's a privileged gig.
    That’s actually quite astute
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    Starmer's Midas quip was even borderline funny, which is a first from him.
    The quip itself was mildly amusing; the follow-up aimed at Cleverly was ROFL good.
    That was the bit which elected a brief chuckle from me - a first ever for me.

    I think he's now confident enough to have relaxed a bit; it's improved his comic delivery.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic.
    If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill.
    Proper first world problem.

    It really isn't a first world problem

    Think it through

    London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed

    Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches

    Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London

    Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)

    So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
    I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):

    1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.

    2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.

    So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
    Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
    No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.

    For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.

    This is Peak First World Problem.
    Tasting Memus are an abomination

    That is my Luxury Belief
    The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
    There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
    Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
    Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
    Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however.
    Edit - beaten to it.
    McDonald’s, Dominos or your local chippie are arguably other examples of the genre.
    Chippies are really complicated. Haddock or cod, sausage or Mars bar, peas mushy or round.
    Ordered a Haddock from a local chippie and had to wait 15 minutes, as Cod after Cod left the shop. Apparently I was the only bugger to ever ask for it it seems.

    I can't tell the difference anyway.
    A government edict to require chippies or supermarkets to limit fish labelling to “white flaky fish”, “white oily fish”, “white flat fish” or “pink fish” would do wonders for the sustainability of our fisheries.

    I suppose for completeness I should include the 5th, 6th and 7th types: “pondy freshwater fish”, “chewy deep sea fish” and “sharky thing”.

    That completes the 7 basic fish.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    https://x.com/griptmedia/status/1729838198778437885

    Irish politicians discuss "white privilege" and the need for racial quotas, with one recalling the "very dull, white, pasty Ireland" that he grew up in before mass migration.

    "During [Ireland's] oppression, we still maintained our invisibility cloak of white privilege."
  • NEW THREAD

  • novanova Posts: 690

    Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    The irony has been pointed out that it's now difficult to recruit low paid immigrants to do jobs that people already in the UK aren't keen on doing.

    However, a lack of investment and training over the past decade and a half, has left the country short in plenty of skilled jobs, which a lot of people would love to do.

    The policy allows companies to recruit from overseas, at wages that undercut the averages paid currently, making it even less attractive to train people in the UK to do the roles.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,079

    https://x.com/griptmedia/status/1729838198778437885

    Irish politicians discuss "white privilege" and the need for racial quotas, with one recalling the "very dull, white, pasty Ireland" that he grew up in before mass migration.

    "During [Ireland's] oppression, we still maintained our invisibility cloak of white privilege."

    Is any of this necessary to pat ourselves on the back for being more positively diverse?
  • TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    When you're comfortably off, have a secure future, nice house, kids in private school and holiday abroad 5 times a year, then the Elgin Marbles or whatever we're supposed to call them might become something you're interested in and want to keep or swap for some other coveted relic.
    If you're cold and skint, facing higher rent or mortgage, you're car has packed in and there ain't any convenient buses or trains to get you to your low paying job....you probably couldn't give a fuck and wonder why Sunak is dying on that particular hill.
    Proper first world problem.

    It really isn't a first world problem

    Think it through

    London generates an enormous amount of tax for the UK Exchequer, which in the end goes to help those people who are cold and skint and waiting for a bus. You may believe the cold poor people don't get enough, or whatever, but that isn't the point. The UK needs London as one of the biggest money generating engines in the country, this is undisputed

    Why is London so successful? Because it has a world class agglomeration of culture, restaurants, art, architecture, history, attractions, universities, museums - it is full of amazing things, which attract amazing people (as tourists or migrants) - they don't come to London for the weather and the beaches

    Once you start to pull that apart then London declines in its allure. I know London haters will crow, but that is pure self harm, those who benefit from London tax money will all suffer in the end,. many of them far outside London

    Right at the heart of all this is a place like the British Museum, which is almost as important to London as the Louvre is to Paris. The French know this, there is no way they would allow a truly pivotal exhibit in the Louvre to vanish to another country (thus ensuring the flow of many more, in the end, it won't stop with the Marbles)

    So it may not matter immediately to the freezing person in Stockton, but it damn well matters once you dig a little deeper
    I dislike the use of "first world problem" more generally because it does 2 things I think are socially damaging (you might even say they are bad for morale):

    1. It's part of the same utilitarian approach to live, found among people on both the left and right, that says the only important thing in life is basic comfort and that beauty, the arts, you name it - are all symbols of decadence. That the only appropriate fun is proletarian fun. Taken to its logical end point it leads us to the sprawling shopping malls of middle America or the banlieue of Paris.

    2. It's patronising and serves to make those beautiful things even more exclusive. It turns art and culture into a preserve for the rich. It forgets how many great artists, designers, musicians, writers in history have come from extreme poverty.

    So I don't think the argument for restitution of the marbles should be about British people not caring or first world problems. It should be about putting an ancient work of art in its proper context and setting.
    Comes from the same stable as 'luxury beliefs'.
    No, there are problems which are not real problems. For any sensible value of real.

    For example, you are at Le Montrachet. You are having the 9 course tasting menu. Due to the chefs tasters between courses and the wine, you lose track of whether you are on course 6 or 7.

    This is Peak First World Problem.
    Tasting Memus are an abomination

    That is my Luxury Belief
    The only abomination is the name and cost. The general idea of being able to sit down and get food brought without having to choose is brilliant. It makes trips to places like Japan or China so much more enjoyable and stress free.
    There's a nice passage in Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential of him and a friend just going to a small street place, near the fish market in Tokyo IIRC, and asking for whatever they want to cook for the two Westerners who are interested in Japanese food, in succession.
    Sometimes I live life on the edge, and order "soup of the day" as my starter without asking what it is first.
    Is there an untapped market out there for eateries of whatever class where the customer eats what they are given and the place focusses on doing one thing really well, different every day? No choice. No faddists. Heaven.
    Le Relais de Venise (Paris, Marylebone, City of London) does a rather fine steak frites: nothing else at all is available. It's not different every day, however.
    Edit - beaten to it.
    McDonald’s, Dominos or your local chippie are arguably other examples of the genre.
    Chippies are really complicated. Haddock or cod, sausage or Mars bar, peas mushy or round.
    Ordered a Haddock from a local chippie and had to wait 15 minutes, as Cod after Cod left the shop. Apparently I was the only bugger to ever ask for it it seems.

    I can't tell the difference anyway.
    A government edict to require chippies or supermarkets to limit fish labelling to “white flaky fish”, “white oily fish”, “white flat fish” or “pink fish” would do wonders for the sustainability of our fisheries.

    I suppose for completeness I should include the 5th, 6th and 7th types: “pondy freshwater fish”, “chewy deep sea fish” and “sharky thing”.

    That completes the 7 basic fish.
    No month for black fish?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    No, no subsidies. The governments says if you want to hire a widget maker then the minimum wage you must pay is 80% of the average widget makers salary in the UK. That assumes that the government also accepts there is a shortage of domestic widget makers available.
    Is that 80% calculated by including the salaries of newly imported widgeters?
    Of course SKS was famously the son of a widgeter.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    eek said:

    Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    No, it just allows you to bring in a cheaper overseas worker while forcing the local one to take a pay cut
    Why? Don't grasp how it works in the slightest, sorry.
  • novanova Posts: 690

    Well PMQs today was extremely entertaining. Sunak looked crestfallen throughout much of it.

    Some good lines delivered by Royale, albeit into an open goal. The gag about the Reverse Midas touch and the "everything turns to... maybe the Home Secretary can help me with the last line" follow-up to Clever Jimmy was inspired.

    But – WTF is this policy about a 20% discount for employers to hire foreign brickies and plasterers? Is that widely known? Strikes me as utterly toxic for the government as creates a massive perverse incentive for companies to use foreign labour rather than homegrown workers.

    It has been in place for a while. I would assume logic is if £30,000 is the national average salary for a particular job, then typical salaries for that job would be something like £25,000-£35,000 especially given regional cost of living differences. And new hires probably at the lower end of the range.

    But, yes, politically hard to sell.
    Sorry, still don't understand. Do employers get paid by the government to hire these blokes, or something else?
    No, no subsidies. The governments says if you want to hire a widget maker then the minimum wage you must pay is 80% of the average widget makers salary in the UK. That assumes that the government also accepts there is a shortage of domestic widget makers available.
    Is that 80% calculated by including the salaries of newly imported widgeters?
    I see where you're going with that, and it ain't onwards and upwards.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    Starmer's Midas quip was even borderline funny, which is a first from him.
    The quip itself was mildly amusing; the follow-up aimed at Cleverly was ROFL good.
    It wasn’t, tho, was it?

    You weren’t actually “rolling on the floor laughing” at a joke by Sir Kir Royale

    I doubt if anyone has ever rolled on the floor laughing at a joke by anyone, let alone Sir Royale

    The closest I have come is being doubled over with laughter at an early Eddie Izzard gig (when he was so so good), when I laughed so much it genuinely hurt, even then I didn’t actually collapse to the ground and roll around in agony like I had some fucking kidney stone, you stupid fucking twat
    No, I wasn't actually ROFL, you are right. It was an exaggeration for emphasis: not something you would ever consider, even when smashed off your box on Thai gin.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Am I the only one on here noticing the increase in the phrase Parthenon frieze as opposed to Elgin marbles? Cannot recall it before this week.
    Does this come from somewhere? The old culture warriors turning their sights on the next big thing?

    The 'culture warriors' are those seeking an argument rather than agreement with Greece, surely ?
    I just think it’s striking how the use has changed and recently.
    IanB2 said:

    Sunak’s dire PMQ will have surely made his problems worse.

    No one watches or cares, beyond weird obsessives like us.
    *not* a new expression: just google for 'Parthenon Marbles'. It was in use by 2004.
    Please don;'t gaslight me! I don't doubt that it has been used before, its just that up to this week I have not heard it used and heard Elgin marbles used hundreds of times. I suspect its arising from those who like to fight battles on behalf of others (Gays for Gaza etc), but that might just be me. Nevertheless I fully expect the BBC has an in house style guide updated just for this. (Item directly after 'Hamas, designated a terrorist organisation by the UK government, but not by us because we never use the word terrorist or terrorism except when we do, must say Parthenon Marbles, which are referred to by some as the Elgin marbles...)
    Oh, sorry to cause any offence. But I am perfectly serious.

    I think it may simply be that I tend to read about archaeology in more archaeology-related periodicals - a quick riffle finds it in, for instance, a very complimentary review of a BM exhibition in a 2003 issue of Antiquity.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    Nigelb said:

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    Starmer's Midas quip was even borderline funny, which is a first from him.
    It was and I hope it doesn't go to his head. Last thing we need is him prioritising comedy over competence. We've seen where that leads.
  • kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    PMQs summary for the 99.9% who don't watch it. Poor old Rishi, taken to the cleaners by an increasingly confident Starmer.
    The PM is a dead man walking, and I've no idea how he can turn it around.

    Starmer's Midas quip was even borderline funny, which is a first from him.
    It was and I hope it doesn't go to his head. Last thing we need is him prioritising comedy over competence. We've seen where that leads.
    He’s a top top lawyer, there’s no risk of arrogance.
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