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The voters back Sunak’s decision to sack Braverman including Tory voters – politicalbetting.com

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  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    biggles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Does this reshuffle make any difference to HMG's response to the forthcoming Supreme Court Rwanda verdict? Is "Quit the ECHR" dead in the water?

    That's exactly what I was thinking - that it makes less likely that quitting the ECHR will be in the Tory manifesto.
    Cameron might have a bright idea about putting it to a referendum and campaigning to stay in.
    Nice to have a link to the spectator and it’s not that roaster Sean Thomas…
    The eyebrow dude.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited November 2023
    Genuine Lols:
    At the Cenotaph on Saturday, there was huge support for Suella among people from all walks of life.
    Rishi Sunak should resign. He is utterly useless.

    https://x.com/AllisonPearson/status/1724019215433191523?s=20

    All walks of life: rich football hooligans, poor football hooligans, white football hooligans, black... Well, we get her drift.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,668

    Have been considering Rishi's reshuffle and concluded that he played a mini-blinder. I doubt there will be any significant polling bounce, but if he can make the Tories look vaguely sensible for a year - i.e. that Boris, Truss and Braverman never happened - then he might just be able to claw back some of the people who really don't like Labour but would be appalled at voting for vandals, cranks and bovver boys. The Red Wall has gone whatever Rishi did, so he may as well ingratiate himself with the Middle England of village fetes, seaside boarding houses and trips to the theatre. Boring but safe.

    I’ve been shitting myself all day on behalf of the Lib Dems after seeing the reactions of 3 of our posters here today.

    But then remembered having similar worries when Hunt came back and Sunak took over from Truss, and that didn’t last long. Lib Dem strategy is probably to keep up with the sewage and crumbling public services attacks (neither of those is getting better anytime soon) and let Labour and journalists pursue the Greensill Capital story.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    A brutal and eloquent evisceration of the reshuffle

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-will-regret-bringing-back-david-cameron/

    I suspect it is bang on the money. Sunak will regret this move and it might just be the end of the Tories as we know them

    We should be grateful at least that you have progressed from spreading false fear, to spreading false hope.
    How come your only friend is a dog? What happened there? Did you upset the cat? Fuck the budgie? Seriously. What happened? Sympathies on the budgie, if she dumped you - quixotic creatures
    Who said the dog was my only friend?

    Well, you, obviously. But based on what?

    The love of my life died of cancer, eventually, as I sat in the hospice, after three long and very painful years, holding her hand. Make something of that, if you wish.

    The dog is happy if I go to the park and throw him a ball. That’s enough for me, now.
    Well now I feel guilty. Thanks
    Awks. But don't feel so bad, we none of us know very much of the background of the posters we joust with. I am sure I've put my foot in it plenty of times.

    Sympathies @IanB2, sounds like you've been through the stuff of my worst nightmares. A dog is a good companion.
    I don't feel remotely guilty, really, not for more than a moment anyway. @IanB2 constantly harangues me, he harbours some weird bitterness, I've come to accept it with a cheerful and sardonic heart, but if he endlessly dishes it out he is, sometimes, gonna get it back

    Meanwhile we all have people dying on us every day, I certainly do, it's what they do, I'm not gonna bleat about it on PB like a twat, nor use it to elicit sympathy. Vita brevis, ars longa

    We just live in hope that one day you might realise that the world has more than one dimension.
  • Rishi Sunak took an axe
    And gave Suella forty whacks.
    When he saw what he had done,
    He gave old Coffey forty-one.

    Now THAT's poetry!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662

    This is a day long to be remembered. It has seen the end of Suella. It shall soon see the end of the Tory Party.

    ...and what happened next?

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    A brutal and eloquent evisceration of the reshuffle

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-will-regret-bringing-back-david-cameron/

    I suspect it is bang on the money. Sunak will regret this move and it might just be the end of the Tories as we know them

    We should be grateful at least that you have progressed from spreading false fear, to spreading false hope.
    How come your only friend is a dog? What happened there? Did you upset the cat? Fuck the budgie? Seriously. What happened? Sympathies on the budgie, if she dumped you - quixotic creatures
    Who said the dog was my only friend?

    Well, you, obviously. But based on what?

    The love of my life died of cancer, eventually, as I sat in the hospice, after three long and very painful years, holding her hand. Make something of that, if you wish.

    The dog is happy if I go to the park and throw him a ball. That’s enough for me, now.
    Well now I feel guilty. Thanks
    Awks. But don't feel so bad, we none of us know very much of the background of the posters we joust with. I am sure I've put my foot in it plenty of times.

    Sympathies @IanB2, sounds like you've been through the stuff of my worst nightmares. A dog is a good companion.
    I don't feel remotely guilty, really, not for more than a moment anyway. @IanB2 constantly harangues me, he harbours some weird bitterness, I've come to accept it with a cheerful and sardonic heart, but if he endlessly dishes it out he is, sometimes, gonna get it back

    Meanwhile we all have people dying on us every day, I certainly do, it's what they do, I'm not gonna bleat about it on PB like a twat, nor use it to elicit sympathy. Vita brevis, ars longa

    Well now you're just being a fucking arse.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,682
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot by my not getting a dog earlier. Ours, a sproodle, is 3 in a few weeks time. It is completely bonkers.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,172

    Have been considering Rishi's reshuffle and concluded that he played a mini-blinder. I doubt there will be any significant polling bounce, but if he can make the Tories look vaguely sensible for a year - i.e. that Boris, Truss and Braverman never happened - then he might just be able to claw back some of the people who really don't like Labour but would be appalled at voting for vandals, cranks and bovver boys. The Red Wall has gone whatever Rishi did, so he may as well ingratiate himself with the Middle England of village fetes, seaside boarding houses and trips to the theatre. Boring but safe.

    Therein lying the issue. Rishi's 'blinding moves' today, like Rishi's stitched up appointment leadership election victory itself, have gained approving nods from people who will never vote Tory, at the expense of losing people in seats currently held by the Tories, and royally pissing off activists to boot. I don't think Sunak has any thought of the next election being anything other than a wipeout for the Tories. The revival of Cameron just feels like fanboying - look at me, I can appoint one of my political heroes. Just like his interview with Elon Musk, but with the cringe factor lasting months instead of a few minutes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,019
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot my not getting a dog earlier.
    I think this country's obsession with dogs is starting to go too far.
  • Cyclefree said:

    From one of the many previous threads (sorry only just catching up)

    "What would you do if someone shouted "Death to all Jews" right next to you at Victoria Station?

    This is a serious question, but not a personal one. I've been asking myself the same, ever since I saw the vid

    I hope I would have given her a ticking off and told her to shut the F up and go away. But I fear I might have been so shocked - and so used to British politeness - I would have just stood there in silent surprise, gobsmacked and mute

    If there is any good to come out of this, it is that these incidents have shaken away any complacency about anti-Semitism. It exists, it is out there, it is deeply nasty, and it needs to be confronted.
    "

    I don't know what I would do in such a situation. I'd like to think that I would confront someone behaving in such a way. All I will say that seeing the reaction of Jewish friends to what has happened here has upset me. Hence this.

    https://chng.it/TXRTGk5Xqp

    Regardless of one's views on Gaza, Israel, the West Bank etc, we should surely all be against the sort of anti-Jewish prejudice, verbal abuse etc seen on our streets here against our fellow citizens.

    It is only a little thing but it is something. Edmund Burke's quote seems apt:

    "Nobody makes a greater mistake than he who does nothing because he could do only a little.


    Gaza? Jews? Who cares, DavidfuckingCameron is back in government!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727
    edited November 2023

    IanB2 said:

    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.

    If you do die before him I'll have him
    I’ll put you down as number four on the list (after three clearly imaginary friends).

    Which isn’t as bad as it sounds, as the first three don’t fully understand the mixed blessing that having an intelligent, wilful dog can sometimes be.
  • "The number of people injured in the Russian shelling of Kherson has risen to 10, with two people killed, according to the regional military administration.

    Two medical workers and an 81-year-old patient were injured in a strike on a hospital."

    https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1724097280150532390

    Russia attacks a hospital (in Ukraine, Syria, etc), and there's silence from the left. Why?

    There's silence from everyone on here (left and right) until you posted that.

    Why? Because a) most of us didn't know it had happened and b) we are, sadly, suffering war atrocity fatigue.

    Why you think this is a left/right issue baffles me.
    I'm surely not the only who wants Ukraine to regain all its lost territory, and for Palestine to be independent with viable borders (ie. not a collection of "Bantustans").
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot my not getting a dog earlier.
    I think this country's obsession with dogs is starting to go too far.
    It's not 'going' anywhere; it was ever thus and ever will be. And rightly so!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    A brutal and eloquent evisceration of the reshuffle

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-will-regret-bringing-back-david-cameron/

    I suspect it is bang on the money. Sunak will regret this move and it might just be the end of the Tories as we know them

    We should be grateful at least that you have progressed from spreading false fear, to spreading false hope.
    How come your only friend is a dog? What happened there? Did you upset the cat? Fuck the budgie? Seriously. What happened? Sympathies on the budgie, if she dumped you - quixotic creatures
    Who said the dog was my only friend?

    Well, you, obviously. But based on what?

    The love of my life died of cancer, eventually, as I sat in the hospice, after three long and very painful years, holding her hand. Make something of that, if you wish.

    The dog is happy if I go to the park and throw him a ball. That’s enough for me, now.
    Well now I feel guilty. Thanks
    Awks. But don't feel so bad, we none of us know very much of the background of the posters we joust with. I am sure I've put my foot in it plenty of times.

    Sympathies @IanB2, sounds like you've been through the stuff of my worst nightmares. A dog is a good companion.
    I don't feel remotely guilty, really, not for more than a moment anyway. @IanB2 constantly harangues me, he harbours some weird bitterness, I've come to accept it with a cheerful and sardonic heart, but if he endlessly dishes it out he is, sometimes, gonna get it back

    Meanwhile we all have people dying on us every day, I certainly do, it's what they do, I'm not gonna bleat about it on PB like a twat, nor use it to elicit sympathy. Vita brevis, ars longa

    Ars longa, supercilia longiora
  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    A brutal and eloquent evisceration of the reshuffle

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-will-regret-bringing-back-david-cameron/

    I suspect it is bang on the money. Sunak will regret this move and it might just be the end of the Tories as we know them

    We should be grateful at least that you have progressed from spreading false fear, to spreading false hope.
    How come your only friend is a dog? What happened there? Did you upset the cat? Fuck the budgie? Seriously. What happened? Sympathies on the budgie, if she dumped you - quixotic creatures
    Who said the dog was my only friend?

    Well, you, obviously. But based on what?

    The love of my life died of cancer, eventually, as I sat in the hospice, after three long and very painful years, holding her hand. Make something of that, if you wish.

    The dog is happy if I go to the park and throw him a ball. That’s enough for me, now.
    Well now I feel guilty. Thanks
    Awks. But don't feel so bad, we none of us know very much of the background of the posters we joust with. I am sure I've put my foot in it plenty of times.

    Sympathies @IanB2, sounds like you've been through the stuff of my worst nightmares. A dog is a good companion.
    I don't feel remotely guilty, really, not for more than a moment anyway. @IanB2 constantly harangues me, he harbours some weird bitterness, I've come to accept it with a cheerful and sardonic heart, but if he endlessly dishes it out he is, sometimes, gonna get it back

    Meanwhile we all have people dying on us every day, I certainly do, it's what they do, I'm not gonna bleat about it on PB like a twat, nor use it to elicit sympathy. Vita brevis, ars longa

    Ars longa, supercilia longiora
    Ecce homo qui est faba!
  • Genuine Lols:
    At the Cenotaph on Saturday, there was huge support for Suella among people from all walks of life.
    Rishi Sunak should resign. He is utterly useless.

    https://x.com/AllisonPearson/status/1724019215433191523?s=20

    All walks of life: rich football hooligans, poor football hooligans, white football hooligans, black... Well, we get her drift.

    The upwards revision of Suella Braverman's career and abilities since her sacking has been remarkable. I don't remember anyone - of any political stamp - having a good word to say about her when she was in office.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727
    edited November 2023
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot by my not getting a dog earlier. Ours, a sproodle, is 3 in a few weeks time. It is completely bonkers.
    It’s a privilege that is hard to describe, to share your life with another species. And the closest we will get, until Leon’s aliens arrive, to being able to see our familiar world in an entirely different way. Yes, it’s perhaps underwhelming that often this seems to involve standing around while the dog is smelling other dogs’ pee at lampposts and bushes, but beggars can’t be choosers.

    Once upon a time, our species lived in the same way.

    Leon still does.
  • viewcode said:

    This is a day long to be remembered. It has seen the end of Suella. It shall soon see the end of the Tory Party.

    ...and what happened next?

    "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, make you stronger!"
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.

    If you do die before him I'll have him
    I’ll put you down as number four on the list (after three clearly imaginary friends).

    Which isn’t as bad as it sounds, as the first three don’t fully understand the mixed blessing that having an intelligent, wilful dog can sometimes be.
    Thanks - I know all about the mixed (but almost exclusively positive) blessings of dogs having had a few in my time. Meanwhile I had my first child on Thursday so it's that set of blessings I need to adjust to for the time being... how will he be with toddlers? :wink:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    I’ll tell you what France does do well, tho

    Opinel knives. They’re amazing. How do they make a blade that good for a tenner?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,118

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.

    If you do die before him I'll have him
    I’ll put you down as number four on the list (after three clearly imaginary friends).

    Which isn’t as bad as it sounds, as the first three don’t fully understand the mixed blessing that having an intelligent, wilful dog can sometimes be.
    Thanks - I know all about the mixed (but almost exclusively positive) blessings of dogs having had a few in my time. Meanwhile I had my first child on Thursday so it's that set of blessings I need to adjust to for the time being... how will he be with toddlers? :wink:
    Congrats! We had our first about 10 months ago. The dog has been fine so far, dealing with the boys obsession with grabbing her fur ok.
  • IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot by my not getting a dog earlier. Ours, a sproodle, is 3 in a few weeks time. It is completely bonkers.
    It’s a privilege that is hard to describe, to share your life with another species. And the closest we will get, until Leon’s aliens arrive, to being able to see our familiar world in an entirely different way. Yes, it’s perhaps underwhelming that often this seems to involve standing around while the dog smelling other dogs’ pee at lampposts and bushes, but beggars can’t be choosers.

    Once upon a time, our species lived in the same way.

    Leon still does.
    It's the absolute, unwavering, frankly unjustified loyalty and trust that gets me. Both ways.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,325

    Genuine Lols:
    At the Cenotaph on Saturday, there was huge support for Suella among people from all walks of life.
    Rishi Sunak should resign. He is utterly useless.

    https://x.com/AllisonPearson/status/1724019215433191523?s=20

    All walks of life: rich football hooligans, poor football hooligans, white football hooligans, black... Well, we get her drift.

    Pearson has been on an incredible journey from centrist Blairite Netmum to deranged looney tune worthy of certification.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,848
    Stultus Latinus utitur ad videndum callidus.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,325
    Andy_JS said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot my not getting a dog earlier.
    I think this country's obsession with dogs is starting to go too far.
    Rather like your obsession with Matt Goodwin, Andy, although more explicable.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,720
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662

    Meanwhile I had my first child on Thursday...

    Oh, happy news! Given context this response is oddly appropriate, but mazel tov for you and your little one.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited November 2023
    IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot by my not getting a dog earlier. Ours, a sproodle, is 3 in a few weeks time. It is completely bonkers.
    It’s a privilege that is hard to describe, to share your life with another species. And the closest we will get, until Leon’s aliens arrive, to being able to see our familiar world in an entirely different way. Yes, it’s perhaps underwhelming that often this seems to involve standing around while the dog is smelling other dogs’ pee at lampposts and bushes, but beggars can’t be choosers.

    Once upon a time, our species lived in the same way.

    Leon still does.
    Mate. I’m teasing. I get it

    I’ve got a moth in my bedroom, sometimes it flies around by the lamp and sometimes it flies around by the other lamp. Sometimes it even flies a bit higher and then goes back down again

    It’s a privilege to watch it - sharing this room - it could have chosen any room but with its eager tiny beating mothy heart it chose ME - my room - my lamp - my cashmere jumper - and there’s no words that can really describe that joy

    Sometimes I just look at Graham - that’s his name - and I see Graham’s smiling little moth face and I actually cry with love. I’m not ashamed to admit it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    I do think there is value in the big mainstream parties trying to be more distinctive, rather than on a lot of core issues chase some imagined centrist consensus with a dusting of half baked ideology that they can sometimes go after.

    But I do think there's a difference between doing that and retaining some true conservative/labour identity, and what people usually do, which is argue that the people really want X, even though they vote for Y and stopped voting for those offering X, and so the solution is to go X but harder.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited November 2023
    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    And yet appears, even on the evidence of two photographs, to have more self-awareness and emotional intelligence than you do.

    Well done @IanB2, you must be very proud.
    Proud? Of a dog??

    I've got a wasp in my garden, shall I go and pretend it's my friend, take a photo of it, maybe show it hovering by the fridge, then another photo of me putting it in a matchbox with its little wasp face all smiley? Would that justify a surge of glowing pride?

    What the fuck is wrong with you
    For someone who has seen so much of the world and its history you are bizarrely hostile to the idea of people anthropomorphising animals, or now even expressing pride in them. Humans have been doing it a long time.

    So as a gimmick it's not very believable that you've recently been converted into fiery hatred of pets or the keeping of animals generally, and I don't think it provokes the reaction you want from people in doing so as a gag either, precisely because it's not believable.

    I'd believe it if AndyJS said it, much more the straight man comedy style to make it seem plausibly true.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602
    Andy_JS said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot my not getting a dog earlier.
    I think this country's obsession with dogs is starting to go too far.
    And what do you base that on? What has changed in the nation's relationship with dogs to lead to the conclusion it has gotten worse?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,668
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    The good thing about been is that it’s map based, so in your USA example just one country covers a nice big blob of land. Whereas visiting 20 Caribbean or Pacific Island states wouldn’t make much visual impact. My antebellum visits to Russia fill a satisfying chunk of the Northern hemisphere even though I’ve only visited Moscow, likewise my single visits to Toronto and Algiers.
  • viewcode said:

    Meanwhile I had my first child on Thursday...

    Oh, happy news! Given context this response is oddly appropriate, but mazel tov for you and your little one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rqn29G_uVo
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Popocatépetl also having an eruption today.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    And yet appears, even on the evidence of two photographs, to have more self-awareness and emotional intelligence than you do.

    Well done @IanB2, you must be very proud.
    Proud? Of a dog??

    I've got a wasp in my garden, shall I go and pretend it's my friend, take a photo of it, maybe show it hovering by the fridge, then another photo of me putting it in a matchbox with its little wasp face all smiley? Would that justify a surge of glowing pride?

    What the fuck is wrong with you
    For someone who has seen so much of the world and its history you are bizarrely hostile to the idea of people anthropomorphising animals, or now even expressing pride in them. Humans have been doing it a long time.

    So as a gimmick it's not very believable that you've recently been converted into fiery hatred of pets or the keeping of animals generally, and I don't think it provokes the reaction you want from people in doing so.
    I think I was just ashamed to admit I was in love with a moth. But fuck it. @IanB2 has allowed me to express myself and now I feel FREE

    In a very real sense Graham and I are now “out of the closet”
  • Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602
    Dogs provide comfort and loyalty, and a distraction for children or guards, and you can eat them if they defy you, I see no downsides.
  • kle4 said:

    I see no downsides.

    The downsides come out of the backsides
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
    Does he look happy there? Please be honest. Sometimes I worry he’s hiding something from me. He seemed to really enjoy Helsinki
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602

    Genuine Lols:
    At the Cenotaph on Saturday, there was huge support for Suella among people from all walks of life.
    Rishi Sunak should resign. He is utterly useless.

    https://x.com/AllisonPearson/status/1724019215433191523?s=20

    All walks of life: rich football hooligans, poor football hooligans, white football hooligans, black... Well, we get her drift.

    It's just such a weird attitude to me. I can accept the idea Rishi is useless, and even that Suella is representative of a certain politics which he needs to win over rather than abandon, but is any single minister so important to others outside politics that their sacking is that noteworthy? There are other Suellas in the party, when did she become indispensible?

    Besides, I'm still wondering what the two disagree on apart from the ECHR. Middle of the road Conservative Rishi ain't.
  • kle4 said:

    I see no downsides.

    The downsides come out of the backsides
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
    Does he look happy there? Please be honest. Sometimes I worry he’s hiding something from me. He seemed to really enjoy Helsinki
    He looks to be in the ecstasy of mid-thrust. I don't know enough about moths to know if that means he's going to be eaten afterwards and if that is a risk whether he should or shouldn't ensure she gets hers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    .
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    A brutal and eloquent evisceration of the reshuffle

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-will-regret-bringing-back-david-cameron/

    I suspect it is bang on the money. Sunak will regret this move and it might just be the end of the Tories as we know them

    We should be grateful at least that you have progressed from spreading false fear, to spreading false hope.
    How come your only friend is a dog? What happened there? Did you upset the cat? Fuck the budgie? Seriously. What happened? Sympathies on the budgie, if she dumped you - quixotic creatures
    Who said the dog was my only friend?

    Well, you, obviously. But based on what?

    The love of my life died of cancer, eventually, as I sat in the hospice, after three long and very painful years, holding her hand. Make something of that, if you wish.

    The dog is happy if I go to the park and throw him a ball. That’s enough for me, now.
    Well now I feel guilty. Thanks
    Awks. But don't feel so bad, we none of us know very much of the background of the posters we joust with. I am sure I've put my foot in it plenty of times.

    Sympathies @IanB2, sounds like you've been through the stuff of my worst nightmares. A dog is a good companion.
    I don't feel remotely guilty, really, not for more than a moment anyway. @IanB2 constantly harangues me, he harbours some weird bitterness, I've come to accept it with a cheerful and sardonic heart, but if he endlessly dishes it out he is, sometimes, gonna get it back

    Meanwhile we all have people dying on us every day, I certainly do, it's what they do, I'm not gonna bleat about it on PB like a twat, nor use it to elicit sympathy. Vita brevis, ars longa

    Ars longa, supercilia longiora
    Eva Longoria.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
    Does he look happy there? Please be honest. Sometimes I worry he’s hiding something from me. He seemed to really enjoy Helsinki
    Being an amusing twat is one rung up from just being a plain twat, I will you grant you that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    kle4 said:

    I see no downsides.

    The downsides come out of the backsides
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
    Does he look happy there? Please be honest. Sometimes I worry he’s hiding something from me. He seemed to really enjoy Helsinki
    He looks to be in the ecstasy of mid-thrust. I don't know enough about moths to know if that means he's going to be eaten afterwards and if that is a risk whether he should or shouldn't ensure she gets hers.
    Thanks. That’s reassuring - I think

    We’d just been out for dinner - I had reindeer steak - Graham had wool - and I caught that lovely look on his face, unselfconscious - pensive yet relaxed - and yes of course he’s handsome I don’t mind saying that matters. Man-moth love is special

    He’s here now, barely two foot away and consistently banging into the lightbulb - sexy

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    Graham must be very woke to have been dying xer hair that colour
    Does he look happy there? Please be honest. Sometimes I worry he’s hiding something from me. He seemed to really enjoy Helsinki
    Has the look of a moth that can’t just log off PB when it’s had enough of you.
    Look at the drooping antennae; have you no empathy at all ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727

    kle4 said:

    I see no downsides.

    The downsides come out of the backsides
    Feed them raw meat or cold pressed food, and the output comes out nice and easy to pick up. Go down to Aldi and buy the cheapest cereal-based kibble they sell, and you will find yourself trying to pick up slop. GI, GO.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,153
    A couple of jerry cans dumped outside a hospital , and this put out by the IDF as their alleged effort to keep the incubators going!

    No one can watch babies dieing and try and justify this is acceptable collateral damage .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,727
    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    And it wasn’t even his birthday.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    nico679 said:

    A couple of jerry cans dumped outside a hospital , and this put out by the IDF as their alleged effort to keep the incubators going!

    No one can watch babies dieing and try and justify this is acceptable collateral damage .

    All Israel can do is provide fuel. Up to Hamas what they use it for. They've shown their main priority is keeping their tunnels going not saving lives in hospitals.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,535
    dr_spyn said:

    Popocatépetl also having an eruption today.

    Is not in Canada
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374
    TimS said:

    biggles said:

    "The number of people injured in the Russian shelling of Kherson has risen to 10, with two people killed, according to the regional military administration.

    Two medical workers and an 81-year-old patient were injured in a strike on a hospital."

    https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1724097280150532390

    Russia attacks a hospital (in Ukraine, Syria, etc), and there's silence from the left. Why?

    There's silence from everyone on here (left and right) until you posted that.

    Why? Because a) most of us didn't know it had happened and b) we are, sadly, suffering war atrocity fatigue.

    Why you think this is a left/right issue baffles me.
    Because we just saw a massive march over what's happening in Gaza, with lots of talk about hospitals being attacked, yet Russia has, for many years, attacked hospitals in various countries.

    But there's silence from those same people. No protests, no marches.

    If it was "war atrocity fatigue", then Israel/Gaza should be the victim of it; not Ukraine. As Russia has been doing this for years to various countries. It's a policy of theirs to attack healthcare infrastructure.

    "Over that period, there were 292 attacks that damaged or destroyed 218 hospitals and clinics, 181 attacks on other health infrastructure (such as pharmacies, blood centres, and dental clinics), and 65 attacks on ambulances. There were also 86 attacks on healthcare workers, with 62 killed and 52 injured."

    https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p451

    Or Syria:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian–Syrian_hospital_bombing_campaign#
    You think the left are pro-Russia? I think the far right are more so.
    No here. Not knowingly (they can be manipulated on some issues). There’s folk memory of Russia as the baddies.
    Doesn't seem to be the case in the GOP.
    It’s a strange metamorphosis the GOP have gone through. That’s the power of the single charismatic individual isn’t it? If it weren’t for Trump I doubt the US right would be so far down the Putinist rabbit hole.

    Over here support for Russia does seem to be more of a fringe, crank far left and far right preoccupation. But very fringe. It’s not remotely mainstream.
    Farage has made a number of pro-Putin statements, and is being discussed as a potential Tory leader.

    https://www.indy100.com/politics/nigel-farage-vladimir-putin-praise
  • Moron vs Jezbollah:

    https://twitter.com/PiersUncensored/status/1724182924726067474

    Moron: Wanker
    Jezbollah: You're a Wanker
    Moron: No, You're a Wanker
    Jezbollah: No, YOU'RE a Wanker
    Moron: No, You're a Wanker
    Jezbollah: No, YOU'RE a Wanker
    Moron: Why can't you say you're a wanker?
    Red Len: Of course he's a Wanker
    Moron: Why can't you say that Jezbollah?

    Gripping stuff
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    And it wasn’t even his birthday.

    Well ,yes. But as a rule of thumb IanB2's pet dog is a happy dog that also provides scale, but Leon's pet moth is a monstrous denizen of hell that cannot be used as a reliable metric for anything other than pants-wetting terror.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,705
    @Leon

    You must be so proud of Graham, what with him having his own Wikipedia page and all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374
    IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyhow, my dog has had to spend his birthday evening locked in the spare room while I go to a town council meeting. So by way of consolation, here’s his sixth birthday photo again:



    The sad thing is that his life expectancy is still, probably, less than mine, yet he doesn’t look much different from the photo I have taken in the same spot every year, below being his first birthday, each year requiring me to buy another useless candlestick. Dogs seem to be able to look the same through youth, middle and old age, until they sadly drop dead.



    At least he still has the same toy as his (second) best friend…his brother long ago destroyed his puppyhood toy.

    Mate. Its a dog
    I have never previously had a dog, but my wife was keen on having one. She had one as a child.

    A dog is wonderful. A huge responsibility and very expensive, but an absolute joy as it snuggles up to you or turns over to have their tummy tickled. They do loads of stuff that makes you smile or laugh out loud. They are great for meeting people particularly if your dog is cute or very friendly as ours is. In fact I can guarantee anywhere we go people will come to speak to us, really just to play with him. It would have been worth knowing 40 years ago as it is a real female magnet.

    I now know I have missed out alot by my not getting a dog earlier. Ours, a sproodle, is 3 in a few weeks time. It is completely bonkers.
    It’s a privilege that is hard to describe, to share your life with another species. And the closest we will get, until Leon’s aliens arrive, to being able to see our familiar world in an entirely different way. Yes, it’s perhaps underwhelming that often this seems to involve standing around while the dog is smelling other dogs’ pee at lampposts and bushes, but beggars can’t be choosers.

    Once upon a time, our species lived in the same way.

    Leon still does.
    There is a whole world of smell based communication that dogs experience and we do not. Catching up on his pee-mails is clearly important to my pooch.

    The world is experienced very differently, though we share much too.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662

    dr_spyn said:

    Popocatépetl also having an eruption today.

    Is not in Canada
    But it is fun to say. Popocatépetl. Popocatépetl.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374
    https://twitter.com/USA_Polling/status/1724170438845080011?t=LKBRl_-fLkX_zYLzT4VWZw&s=19

    It's polls like this that make me glad of the British Polling Council rules.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
    A fair amount of truth in that, which is why the Tories really need to show obvious, impressive progress on the boats, which is why they are focusing on Rwanda. As it is the only policy which might actually work - via deterrence - as Australia has shown, This is why other European countries - Denmark, Austria, Germany - are now circling versions of "Rwanda" (yes they differ in details, but the essence - deterrence - is the same)

    If the Tories cannot even do that - stop boats crossing the Channel - then they are completely pointless

    And this matters, not just in principle. We are spending billions on housing asylum seekers at a time of public penury and everyday penny-pinching

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662
    Leon said:

    Here’s Graham

    Took this on our last holiday together in Finland. He was happy then. Maybe as happy as a moth can be - but who knows. Post coitum omnia animal tristes est


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i1YGk2Jbu8

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,206

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    :D:D

    Seriously? I thought she was long gone...

    It is about time that Sunak got rid of the odious Braverman. Bringing her back once she stood down is something that shows flaws in his judgement, but he must be well down the Barrel of Talent if he needs McVey and Cameron onboard.
    scraping the bottom big time
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    rcs1000 said:

    @Leon

    You must be so proud of Graham, what with him having his own Wikipedia page and all.

    He’s like a lamp to celebrities.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Hinds back to DfE; presumably replacing Gibb.

    Weird for a former SoS to come back as a junior minister in the same department.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    rcs1000 said:

    @Leon

    You must be so proud of Graham, what with him having his own Wikipedia page and all.

    I am proud, just as @IanB2 is proud of Woggle and the way he behaved with the soup in Norway, I am proud of Graham, his manly thorax, the way he sometimes seems to crumble into dust, it's a new way of seeing the world

    And yes, I DO believe he loves me, but sometimes it is an angry love, we're thinking of adopting a larva


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374
    TimS said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    The good thing about been is that it’s map based, so in your USA example just one country covers a nice big blob of land. Whereas visiting 20 Caribbean or Pacific Island states wouldn’t make much visual impact. My antebellum visits to Russia fill a satisfying chunk of the Northern hemisphere even though I’ve only visited Moscow, likewise my single visits to Toronto and Algiers.
    In larger countries with federal systems, I think it better to tick off bigger countries by state or provide.

    It would be absurd to claim I've seen India on the basis of Mumbai and Ahmednaggar. Oh, and a day trip to the Ajanta caves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    viewcode said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Popocatépetl also having an eruption today.

    Is not in Canada
    But it is fun to say. Popocatépetl..
    Popocatépetl poppeditscapalittle.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    The cocaine found at the White House was cut with baking soda

    LOVE #FOIA

    https://twitter.com/JasonLeopold/status/1724193789101879573
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    edited November 2023
    March against antisemitism 13:30 central London on Sunday.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263

    Antisemitism march 13:30 central London on Sunday.

    I hope that’s an anti-antisemitism march ?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    Nigelb said:

    Antisemitism march 13:30 central London on Sunday.

    I hope that’s an anti-antisemitism march ?
    Good point. Corrected.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,263
    The Drone displays in China are next level
    https://twitter.com/HowThingsWork_/status/1724009458915758280

    Drone swarm control capabilities obviously have military implications, too.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,705

    March against antisemitism 13:30 central London on Sunday.

    For or against?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374

    March against antisemitism 13:30 central London on Sunday.

    Not this Sunday, its the 26th I think.
  • My YouTube analytics has just updated for yesterday. £214 revenue. In one day. Categorically will not do that again today as views have dropped. But I really get it now - do some decent content, interact with punters as they come in the door and more come in through the door.

    I would say "for a hobby, this is fun." But it isn't a hobby, its a business. And I really want to keep pushing this and see how it goes.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    Foxy said:

    March against antisemitism 13:30 central London on Sunday.

    Not this Sunday, its the 26th I think.
    God I might as well delete the whole thing!

    Sunday 26 November.
  • He's made Leadsom a minister??????
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    I'm on 49 I think and similarly haven't been anywhere new for a while. My work seems to take me to the same places repeatedly, and it's difficult and expensive going to new places with three children. I've never been anywhere in Africa, and few places in South America or South East Asia either, so there's still plenty of this beautiful world to see.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
    A fair amount of truth in that, which is why the Tories really need to show obvious, impressive progress on the boats, which is why they are focusing on Rwanda. As it is the only policy which might actually work - via deterrence - as Australia has shown, This is why other European countries - Denmark, Austria, Germany - are now circling versions of "Rwanda" (yes they differ in details, but the essence - deterrence - is the same)

    If the Tories cannot even do that - stop boats crossing the Channel - then they are completely pointless

    And this matters, not just in principle. We are spending billions on housing asylum seekers at a time of public penury and everyday penny-pinching

    Maybe Suella will go on her own personal journey a-la Portillo 'nasty tory -> softy'. Picture her lightly giggling with some locals over whether it's jam first or cream first on a scone. Whirling her legs under a swing covered in spring flowers while talking about romantic poetry.

    Possibly a trip in a a hot air balloon.

    Which she'd currently have shot out of the sky. But times (and finances) may change!

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,374

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    I'm on 49 I think and similarly haven't been anywhere new for a while. My work seems to take me to the same places repeatedly, and it's difficult and expensive going to new places with three children. I've never been anywhere in Africa, and few places in South America or South East Asia either, so there's still plenty of this beautiful world to see.
    51 for me at present. Nowhere in South America, and only 8 in Africa.
  • biggles said:

    DougSeal said:

    When do we get Suella and Rishi's letters to each other?

    There won’t be any, apparently. An actual sacking with no agreed “resignation” fiction.
    Apparently it was a telephone sacking with no exchange of letters
    Not exactly up to Lord Salisbury to/from Lord Randolph Churchill standards?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,004
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
    A fair amount of truth in that, which is why the Tories really need to show obvious, impressive progress on the boats, which is why they are focusing on Rwanda. As it is the only policy which might actually work - via deterrence - as Australia has shown, This is why other European countries - Denmark, Austria, Germany - are now circling versions of "Rwanda" (yes they differ in details, but the essence - deterrence - is the same)

    If the Tories cannot even do that - stop boats crossing the Channel - then they are completely pointless

    And this matters, not just in principle. We are spending billions on housing asylum seekers at a time of public penury and everyday penny-pinching

    Maybe Suella will go on her own personal journey a-la Portillo 'nasty tory -> softy'. Picture her lightly giggling with some locals over whether it's jam first or cream first on a scone. Whirling her legs under a swing covered in spring flowers while talking about romantic poetry.

    Possibly a trip in a a hot air balloon.

    Which she'd currently have shot out of the sky. But times (and finances) may change!

    If Braverman has a cultural hinterland like Portillo I have yet to see it.

    She will almost certainly always be a hard as nails rightwinger
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,004
    edited November 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    He also got a peerage out of it, gets Chevening and 1 Carlton Gardens, lots of all expenses paid foreign travel, accomodation in ambassadors' historic residences and top quality dinners too and he isn't an MP anymore or party leader and PM so doesn't need to care much what the voters and media think of him either
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Foxy said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    I'm on 49 I think and similarly haven't been anywhere new for a while. My work seems to take me to the same places repeatedly, and it's difficult and expensive going to new places with three children. I've never been anywhere in Africa, and few places in South America or South East Asia either, so there's still plenty of this beautiful world to see.
    51 for me at present. Nowhere in South America, and only 8 in Africa.
    Chile is magnificent, especially the Atacama desert, and the Iguazu falls in Arg/Brazil are probably the greatest single natural wonder on the planet. Niagara Falls and Victoria Falls aren't in the same league
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    My YouTube analytics has just updated for yesterday. £214 revenue. In one day. Categorically will not do that again today as views have dropped. But I really get it now - do some decent content, interact with punters as they come in the door and more come in through the door.

    I would say "for a hobby, this is fun." But it isn't a hobby, its a business. And I really want to keep pushing this and see how it goes.

    One of my friends works in digital marketing and has enlightened me to all sorts of youtube shenanigans. Not a world I'm familiar with so was quite an eye opener.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,350
    edited November 2023
    I see Jezza crashed the clown car on Piers Morgan....4 minutes of him refusing to even entertain or answer the question if that Hamas are a terrorist organisation and that such a group should not be in power.

    I mean you have to give his dues, he never changes his mind on anything and will keep digging holes when two words could have moved the conversation on and enabled him to prattle on about the evil Israelis.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    HYUFD said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
    A fair amount of truth in that, which is why the Tories really need to show obvious, impressive progress on the boats, which is why they are focusing on Rwanda. As it is the only policy which might actually work - via deterrence - as Australia has shown, This is why other European countries - Denmark, Austria, Germany - are now circling versions of "Rwanda" (yes they differ in details, but the essence - deterrence - is the same)

    If the Tories cannot even do that - stop boats crossing the Channel - then they are completely pointless

    And this matters, not just in principle. We are spending billions on housing asylum seekers at a time of public penury and everyday penny-pinching

    Maybe Suella will go on her own personal journey a-la Portillo 'nasty tory -> softy'. Picture her lightly giggling with some locals over whether it's jam first or cream first on a scone. Whirling her legs under a swing covered in spring flowers while talking about romantic poetry.

    Possibly a trip in a a hot air balloon.

    Which she'd currently have shot out of the sky. But times (and finances) may change!

    If Braverman has a cultural hinterland like Portillo I have yet to see it.

    She will almost certainly always be a hard as nails rightwinger
    Sunak was quoting WB Yeats this evening I believe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,350
    edited November 2023
    Americans say its true about the hospital being a Hamas command and control centre.

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/13/politics/al-shifa-hospital-us-intelligence/index.html
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,662

    HYUFD said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Kate Hoey
    @CatharineHoey

    Very disappointed that @SuellaBraverman has been sacked. We need Cabinet members who speak out and tell the public the truth not follow a cosy establishment consensus so out of touch with the views of the quiet majority"

    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1723989401527611790

    The quiet majority of which she speaks is generally not particularly quiet. Or a majority.
    Are you sure?

    "More than half of Britons back Braverman claim that migrant crossings are an ‘invasion’

    Polling results follow recent hardening in language by the Home Secretary who warned of threat of ‘hurricane’ of mass migration"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/20/51pc-britons-agree-braverman-small-boats-migrants-invasion/
    I refer you to the poll in the thread header.
    TBH I think it is mixed. On some issues she has strong support (cutting immigration, need for assimilation) on other issues she has much smaller support - eg "lifestyle choice" - I imagine most Brits recoiled from the language there, even if they agreed with the sentiment. I did, and I'm quite flinty

    The more pertinent point is that she represents a large slice of British public opinion, and she is - was - the only salient minister giving voice to those opinions. You may not like them, but it is deeply unhealthy if they are not represented in parliament by senior politicians. This is why the whole issue menaces the Tories. If they aren't capable of speaking these truths in power, what is the bloody point of their existence? Do we need another Wokey centrist party with the exact same policies as Labour but slightly posher surnames?

    Nope
    The electoral issue with Braverman is the same as the old 'Nasty Party' one or, on the other side of politics, Corbyn had even if you disregarded certain disqualifying views. Namely that the agreeing with a politician on issue x or y, doesn't necessarily mean they like politicians who address them in ways they find discomforting or implausible, or reinforces other negative opinions.

    The negative perception of the Tory Party is often that it's callous, xenophobic, and backward. With Labour it's that it's often naive, spendthrift, and hectoring. Play into those and sometimes people will agree with you on issue x - say you're worried about immigration - but be suspicious of politicians who focus overly on it when it plays into negatives.

    It's why the whole 'War on Woke'/Culture war stuff has backfired on the Tories - despite, as you say, people often disagreeing with the things being attacked. There might be no love for the shouting lefty activists and their wilder causes, but if a major bit of your political message is whingeing about that rather than getting on with things, you also look every bit as ridiculous and unpleasant.
    A fair amount of truth in that, which is why the Tories really need to show obvious, impressive progress on the boats, which is why they are focusing on Rwanda. As it is the only policy which might actually work - via deterrence - as Australia has shown, This is why other European countries - Denmark, Austria, Germany - are now circling versions of "Rwanda" (yes they differ in details, but the essence - deterrence - is the same)

    If the Tories cannot even do that - stop boats crossing the Channel - then they are completely pointless

    And this matters, not just in principle. We are spending billions on housing asylum seekers at a time of public penury and everyday penny-pinching

    Maybe Suella will go on her own personal journey a-la Portillo 'nasty tory -> softy'. Picture her lightly giggling with some locals over whether it's jam first or cream first on a scone. Whirling her legs under a swing covered in spring flowers while talking about romantic poetry.

    Possibly a trip in a a hot air balloon.

    Which she'd currently have shot out of the sky. But times (and finances) may change!

    If Braverman has a cultural hinterland like Portillo I have yet to see it.

    She will almost certainly always be a hard as nails rightwinger
    Sunak was quoting WB Yeats this evening I believe.
    Through his actions or through his words?
  • TheKitchenCabinetTheKitchenCabinet Posts: 2,275
    edited November 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    I'd disagree, there is a lot in it for him or, perhaps more accurately, it is probably the only chance he has of gaining some upside.

    Look at him. People saw him as a bit of a joke with his expensive shed and then as (probably) a grifter who made a decent amount of coin from Lex Greensill while investors lost billions. He also was quite happy to get down on his knees for China.

    Put simply, Cameron's reputation had taking a shellacking because of his poor choices and (more to the point) because of his greed. Something like this was the only way he was going to turn things around.

    So, no, I do not say "Well done David Cameron".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited November 2023
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    He also got a peerage out of it, gets Chevening and 1 Carlton Gardens, lots of all expenses paid foreign travel, accomodation in ambassadors' historic residences and top quality dinners too and he isn't an MP anymore or party leader and PM so doesn't need to care much what the voters and media think of him either
    Yeah, exactly. FS is a brilliant job, esp if you don't have to worry about any constituency, or actual politics

    The idea he is being dutiful and altruistic is absolutely nuts, he's going to swan around the world in absolute luxury for a solid year, meeting interesting people and getting lavishly paid for it, even as he enjoys his PM's pension and the rest. What a tough gig, what a decent guy - spare us
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,720

    I see Jezza crashed the clown car on Piers Morgan....4 minutes of him refusing to even entertain or answer the question if that Hamas are a terrorist organisation and that such a group should not be in power.

    I mean you have to give his dues, he never changes his mind on anything and will keep digging holes when two words could have moved the conversation on and enabled him to prattle on about the evil Israelis.

    Here it is. Jezbollah vs Morgan

    https://twitter.com/PiersUncensored/status/1724182924726067474
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,194

    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    I'd disagree, there is a lot in it for him or, perhaps more accurately, it is probably the only chance he has of gaining some upside.

    Look at him. People saw him as a bit of a joke with his expensive shed and then as (probably) a grifter who made a decent amount of coin from Lex Greensill while investors lost billions. He also was quite happy to get down on his knees for China.

    Put simply, Cameron's reputation had taking a shellacking because of his poor choices and (more to the point) because of his greed. Something like this was the only way he was going to turn things around.

    So, no, I do not say "Well done David Cameron".
    Yes, it's a chance for him to posture on the world stage at what is potentially a pivotal moment in history and revise his legacy from being just the PM who lost a referendum and flounced off.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    I have swanned around the world for free, on someone else's shilling, eating amazing food, and sleeping in total luxury, while getting paid for it - and I can hereby vouch that it is an absolute BLAST. It is every bit as good as it sounds

    Cameron has lucked out. And we are meant to respect him for his sense of civic duty???
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,705

    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    I'd disagree, there is a lot in it for him or, perhaps more accurately, it is probably the only chance he has of gaining some upside.

    Look at him. People saw him as a bit of a joke with his expensive shed and then as (probably) a grifter who made a decent amount of coin from Lex Greensill while investors lost billions. He also was quite happy to get down on his knees for China.

    Put simply, Cameron's reputation had taking a shellacking because of his poor choices and (more to the point) because of his greed. Something like this was the only way he was going to turn things around.

    So, no, I do not say "Well done David Cameron".
    I know quite a few Lex Greensill's: guys that bribe others to ensure personal loyalty.

    It reflects very poorly on David Cameron that he was buy-able.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    For the record, Cameron gets £115,000 a year as PM pension. That's £2k a week just for being alive

    He will also get at least the ministerial chunk of the FS salary - £80k? Will he also get money as a Lord?

    So already he's on £200,000 a year minimum. Presumably he has multiple other incomes from companies, consultancy, etc. Also he will live the next year without spending tuppence, he gets a free country house, a free London home, he will have endless free travel and luxe accommodation

    He's going to absolutely mint it
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,705
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    My daughter has insisted I install an APP called 'been'.

    You put in the countries where you have - err - been.

    Apparently I've been to 16% of the world. 33 countries.

    Who can beat that? Leon obvs.

    (We have defined 'been' as staying at least one night (i.e. not just passing through).)

    An acquaintance of mine visited every capital city in Europe. An easy task, you might think.

    Except he wanted to drink a pint of Guinness in each one. Some were easy - say, Dublin or London. Others were more difficult, especially in eastern Europe. One (and annoyingly I cannot remember which) required a little subterfuge.

    As his quest became known, he'd be greeted by people with a pint of Guinness ready for him. The order he visited was random, picked out of a hat.
    I’ve done 91 countries on “been”. My ambition is to hit at least 100 before I keel over. Should do it now with ease (ins’allah)

    The main gaps are central and west Africa, Central Asia and Central America, and lots of lots of islands (esp in the Caribbean and Polynesia)

    Now I’m going to Colombia in March I can knock off
    a few there
    My issue with things like this is they sort imply that being well-travelled means playing Pokémon Go but with countries. But you could travel only within the USA for decades and experience an extraordinary cultural and geographical diversity.

    I’m on 33 fwiw, but the last time I went somewhere new was 2019 (Sweden).
    I'm on 49 I think and similarly haven't been anywhere new for a while. My work seems to take me to the same places repeatedly, and it's difficult and expensive going to new places with three children. I've never been anywhere in Africa, and few places in South America or South East Asia either, so there's still plenty of this beautiful world to see.
    51 for me at present. Nowhere in South America, and only 8 in Africa.
    Chile is magnificent, especially the Atacama desert, and the Iguazu falls in Arg/Brazil are probably the greatest single natural wonder on the planet. Niagara Falls and Victoria Falls aren't in the same league
    I highly recommend skiing in the Andes.

    Santiago is rather forgettable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,602
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well I've not had much positive to say about Cameron in recent years, but after mulling over todays appointment I've got to say I admire his sense of duty and he has got my respect.

    I doubt there's much in it for him. He doesn't need the money and he's given up what I'm sure was a quiet and content life with Sam and the kids to return to hurly burly of front line politics and the Tory Party in it's current state of shambles.

    Well done David Cameron.

    He also got a peerage out of it, gets Chevening and 1 Carlton Gardens, lots of all expenses paid foreign travel, accomodation in ambassadors' historic residences and top quality dinners too and he isn't an MP anymore or party leader and PM so doesn't need to care much what the voters and media think of him either
    It's a pretty good deal. Let's be honest, Foreign Secretary is not a top Cabinet job anymore really, anything truly important the PM would take centre stage and everything will be run by them, so it's hanging on as a Great Office for historical reasons.

    I like Cameron fine, but if he was looking to get back in the game more like Tony Blair, this would be a good way of doing so after 7 years keeping mostly quiet and making money.
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