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The voters back Sunak’s decision to sack Braverman including Tory voters – politicalbetting.com

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  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Big hitter Andrea Jenkyns trying to launch a putsch against Sundance.

    Lol.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    FPT

    Re Cameron and the Lords.

    Remove the really weird rule, presumably dating from the 11th century or somesuch, that no Lord is allowed to speak on the floor of the Commons.

    Allow Lords to speak and take questions from the Commons. And while you’re at it you could allow members of the Commons to take questions in the Lords.

    No real reason I can see why that isn’t allowed, other than archaic tradition.

    It certainly is not a very difficult problem to solve.

    Of course, they could always pass a law preventing Lords from being Cabinet Ministers if it is that big an issue.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Cookie said:

    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    The word "tsar" is overused. Could she not be given the title "Wokefinder General"?

    EDIT: I see the joke has been made. Apologies for lack of originality.
    Why is is "tsar" anyway? Why not, for example, "kaiser"?
    Or "Emir"?
    Or "Shah"?
    Commissar?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Nice to see Operation Orbital mentioned as a Cameron foreign policy achievement. I'm sure I was banning the drum on my own. Have we had a bigger foreign policy success in recent years than our training of the Ukrainian military since 2015?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    MattW said:

    My brain keeps trying to do limerick scanning in clerihews.

    Suella Suella went bezerky
    Voted like a Christmas turkey
    A braver man missed Kipling and Dickens
    But Rishi's down to Christmas chickens

    Suella may take on the chin
    Being politically chucked in the bin
    It's too soon to rejoice
    For her new lifestyle choice:
    To be outside the tent pissing in
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cathynewman

    In other #reshuffle news a @UKLabour source tells me up to 17 frontbenchers expect to be sacked on Weds for backing @SNP on the #Gaza ceasefire vote. They say unless @Keir_Starmer uses the words “immediate ceasefire” they can’t vote with Labour and expect to be fired.

    Errrr..... what?
    Is Sunak about to have a bit of good luck? A divided Labour Party with a whiff of the ghost of Corbyn?
    Why isn't this massive news? Sounds like 3/4 of the Labour shadow cabinet is about to quit?
    Leaving aside the other reasons already given, it hasn't actually happened yet. Will it actually be that many, and will Starmer actually follow through, or find a middle way to avoid it all?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Sean_F said:

    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    The word "tsar" is overused. Could she not be given the title "Wokefinder General"?

    EDIT: I see the joke has been made. Apologies for lack of originality.
    Why is is "tsar" anyway? Why not, for example, "kaiser"?
    Or “Fuhrer.”
    I like “Panjandrum”. Esther McVey is The Woke Panjandrum. Sounds like a new Marvel success.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    The word "tsar" is overused. Could she not be given the title "Wokefinder General"?

    EDIT: I see the joke has been made. Apologies for lack of originality.
    Why is is "tsar" anyway? Why not, for example, "kaiser"?
    Or "Emir"?
    Or "Shah"?
    The "Don't Be Stupid Duce"
    The Ayatollah of Feed-The-Troll-ah
  • Scott_xP said:

    @andreajenkyns

    Enough is enough, I have submitted my vote of no confidence letter to the Chairman of the 1922. It is time for Rishi Sunak to go and replace him with a 'real' Conservative party leader.

    Andrea Jenkyns is basically our version of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
    Do we have a Lauren Boebert?
  • Big hitter Andrea Jenkyns trying to launch a putsch against Sundance.

    Lol.

    I wonder who has she in mind for his replacement. Would it be Trolley by any chance?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cathynewman

    In other #reshuffle news a @UKLabour source tells me up to 17 frontbenchers expect to be sacked on Weds for backing @SNP on the #Gaza ceasefire vote. They say unless @Keir_Starmer uses the words “immediate ceasefire” they can’t vote with Labour and expect to be fired.

    Errrr..... what?
    Is Sunak about to have a bit of good luck? A divided Labour Party with a whiff of the ghost of Corbyn?
    Why isn't this massive news? Sounds like 3/4 of the Labour shadow cabinet is about to quit?
    Front bench != cabinet.
    RCS One Hundred
    Blundered
    Actually as far as I can recall that's not been true at any time
    But he has a handle that's terrbily difficult to find something to rhyme
    With.
    Got it!
    RCS One Hundred
    Blundered
    When sidelining Moonrabbit from the fray;
    For she never really went away.

    (With apologies to both rcs100 and Moonrabbit!)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Ghedebrav said:

    MattW said:

    My brain keeps trying to do limerick scanning in clerihews.

    Suella Suella went bezerky
    Voted like a Christmas turkey
    A braver man missed Kipling and Dickens
    But Rishi's down to Christmas chickens

    Suella may take on the chin
    Being politically chucked in the bin
    It's too soon to rejoice
    For her new lifestyle choice:
    To be outside the tent pissing in
    One of the best of the day. Bravo
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,662
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @cathynewman

    In other #reshuffle news a @UKLabour source tells me up to 17 frontbenchers expect to be sacked on Weds for backing @SNP on the #Gaza ceasefire vote. They say unless @Keir_Starmer uses the words “immediate ceasefire” they can’t vote with Labour and expect to be fired.

    Errrr..... what?
    Is Sunak about to have a bit of good luck? A divided Labour Party with a whiff of the ghost of Corbyn?
    Why isn't this massive news? Sounds like 3/4 of the Labour shadow cabinet is about to quit?
    Front bench != cabinet.
    RCS One Hundred
    Blundered
    Actually as far as I can recall that's not been true at any time
    But he has a handle that's terrbily difficult to find something to rhyme
    With.
    RCS1000
    Is not one who bows and
    Scrapes to those who cut his name by 90 percent
    Unless of course they've got his prior written consent
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    FPT

    Re Cameron and the Lords.

    Remove the really weird rule, presumably dating from the 11th century or somesuch, that no Lord is allowed to speak on the floor of the Commons.

    Allow Lords to speak and take questions from the Commons. And while you’re at it you could allow members of the Commons to take questions in the Lords.

    No real reason I can see why that isn’t allowed, other than archaic tradition.

    Or mobilise an ad-hoc select committee.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023
    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    I just cannot see it myself - sure, Cameron may remind some people in the Shires of the good old days, but the fundamentals haven't changed and it's the Braverman contingent which are most angry and likely to remain so. Absent a change in economic circumstances will Cameron fans returning really outweigh angry Reform leaning types staying home?

    But it has to be congratulated as one of the more surpising moves that's been made in a long time, which is not easy, and very against type for the government.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    The word "tsar" is overused. Could she not be given the title "Wokefinder General"?

    EDIT: I see the joke has been made. Apologies for lack of originality.
    Why is is "tsar" anyway? Why not, for example, "kaiser"?
    Or “Fuhrer.”
    I like “Panjandrum”. Esther McVey is The Woke Panjandrum. Sounds like a new Marvel success.
    That implies she's woke herself though. Surely the only acceptable title is "wokefinder general".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.

    You don't know Steve Hilton was a Leaver, do you?

    Bless

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/how-steve-hilton-turned-on-his-friend-and-ex-boss-david-cameron
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    I just cannot see it myself - sure, Cameron may remind some people in the Shires of the good old days, but the fundamentals haven't changed and it's the Braverman contingent which are most angry and likely to remain so. Absent a change in economic circumstances will Cameron fans returning really outweigh angry Reform leaning types staying home?

    But it has to be congratulated as one of the more surpising moves that's been made in a long time, which is not easy, and very against type for the government.
    Cameron is a creature of The South, I doubt he'll travel well north of Birmingham
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    This is very good from Sunak. He's cleared away the baggage from the weird drama of the last few years (May, Boris, and Truss all get sideswiped - a little unfair on May)

    Back to sensible mainstream Tory politics. (Doubt it'll stick, but it's a very impressive attempt)
  • jonny83 said:

    Utterly shocked to hear Cameron is back in Politics. I remember a few years back there was talk of him looking to get back into Politics but never thought it would happen.

    Overall a fan of his tenure as PM even as someone who voted remain (I was never a die hard remainder, but thought it would be better to stay in than leave).

    Can you be Tory Leader from the Lords?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.

    You don't know Steve Hilton was a Leaver, do you?

    Bless

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/how-steve-hilton-turned-on-his-friend-and-ex-boss-david-cameron
    It's like the old days with all these names, dust down your files.

    Your next book should be The Tales of Gaylord Poncy Boots
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    UKIP received 12.9% of the vote (in GB) at the 2015 GE. Maybe this is a masterstroke from Sunak, but I can see how it could go terribly wrong too. 13% for Faragists to the Tories right could leave Sunak with just 20% of the vote.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581

    Emergency podcast news.

    The Rest is Politics had over 100,000 viewers.
    Political Currency... dunno but they also had one.

    Poor Rory will be pissing himself that he didnt get the call
    He said he would have taken it (FS)
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the majority of the public back Braverman's sacking, Sunak will hope having done that and brought Cameron back he will get a small poll boost as well as stabilise his government.

    However 20% of voters saying he was wrong to sack her gives a significant pool for ReformUK to fish in to attract rightwing Tory voters disillusioned with the direction of the Sunak government now

    If you had any sense you would let the fascist supporters head off to RefUK and start cleaning the extremists out of your own party and make them back into a serious political party again.
    The problem is unless centrist swing voters come back from Starmer Labour and the LDs after today's shift back to Cameronism from Sunak, without voters on the right voting Tory but voting RefUK instead that just means even more Tory seats will be lost
    If you want centrist voters back then get rid of your madder right-wing. The Tory Party has been pandering to these idiots for years and they have helped to push you into the mess you currently find yourself in.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Unfortunately most of Rishi's clowns are still there. Grant Shapps wants all those with placards reading 'From the River to the Sea' or carrying the Socialist Worker where it's on it's cover arrested.

    I bet they've got lawyers hanging off the lamposts offering to represent anyone brought to trial. It could make the defendants as famous as the editors of OZ
  • Scott_xP said:

    @andreajenkyns

    Enough is enough, I have submitted my vote of no confidence letter to the Chairman of the 1922. It is time for Rishi Sunak to go and replace him with a 'real' Conservative party leader.

    Andrea Jenkyns is basically our version of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
    Do we have a Lauren Boebert?
    Give it one more election, and I’m sure we will.
  • Is there some resemblance, given today's news, between David Cameron and another old Etonian, James Arthur Balfour.

    > As Conservative MP, served in high-profile political/governmental roles before becoming Tory Leader and Prime Minister.

    > As Leaders and PMs, enjoyed some electoral success but left office due to notable electoral failure.

    > After leaving No. 10, reemerged in later government(s) as Foreign Secretary.

    > Ennobled by appointment to House of Lords; JAB as hereditary (after he was FS) DC as life peer (presumably anyway).

    > Involved in major way (!!!) with Middle Eastern diplomacy & etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    I'd say they were self aware, but if that's an accurate quote I think they very much are.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited November 2023
    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    Morley and Outwood drama. It's all Balls.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023

    jonny83 said:

    Utterly shocked to hear Cameron is back in Politics. I remember a few years back there was talk of him looking to get back into Politics but never thought it would happen.

    Overall a fan of his tenure as PM even as someone who voted remain (I was never a die hard remainder, but thought it would be better to stay in than leave).

    Can you be Tory Leader from the Lords?
    No.
    There shall be a Leader of the Party (referred to in this Constitution as “the Leader”) drawn from those elected to the House of Commons, who shall be elected by the Party Members and Scottish Party Members in accordance with the provisions of Schedule 2.

    The Leader shall determine the political direction of the Party having regard to the views of Party Members and the Conservative Policy Forum

    https://public.conservatives.com/organisation-department/202101/Conservative Party Constitution as amended January 2021.pdf
  • kle4 said:

    FPT

    Re Cameron and the Lords.

    Remove the really weird rule, presumably dating from the 11th century or somesuch, that no Lord is allowed to speak on the floor of the Commons.

    Allow Lords to speak and take questions from the Commons. And while you’re at it you could allow members of the Commons to take questions in the Lords.

    No real reason I can see why that isn’t allowed, other than archaic tradition.

    It certainly is not a very difficult problem to solve.

    Of course, they could always pass a law preventing Lords from being Cabinet Ministers if it is that big an issue.
    To be honest, I dont really see why we shouldn’t be able to have some members of the government appointed rather than elected. Plenty of other governments around the world permit it, and there seems to be no issue. It also does allow for the appointment of people who are administrators and CEOs by trade, who have a bit more experience in running things than the PPE graduate and SPAD who got themselves a safe seat yet is suddenly tasked with being responsible for the operation of the National Health Service.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    HYUFD said:

    Emergency podcast news.

    The Rest is Politics had over 100,000 viewers.
    Political Currency... dunno but they also had one.

    Poor Rory will be pissing himself that he didnt get the call
    Rory's theory is that Rishi wanted William Hague, who turned it down and then helped recruit Cameron. Rory was not very complimentary about Cameron's grasp of foreign policy.
    Hague has already been Foreign Secretary anyway, when Cameron was PM
    Rory is so far out of the loop he's left the gravitational orbit of the solar system.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    UKIP received 12.9% of the vote (in GB) at the 2015 GE. Maybe this is a masterstroke from Sunak, but I can see how it could go terribly wrong too. 13% for Faragists to the Tories right could leave Sunak with just 20% of the vote.
    In 2015 they didn't have to work as hard to get the votes from the opposite end of the UKIP side. Given 9 more years and even if Reform do not pack as much of a punch, they would not need to.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    kle4 said:

    FPT

    Re Cameron and the Lords.

    Remove the really weird rule, presumably dating from the 11th century or somesuch, that no Lord is allowed to speak on the floor of the Commons.

    Allow Lords to speak and take questions from the Commons. And while you’re at it you could allow members of the Commons to take questions in the Lords.

    No real reason I can see why that isn’t allowed, other than archaic tradition.

    It certainly is not a very difficult problem to solve.

    Of course, they could always pass a law preventing Lords from being Cabinet Ministers if it is that big an issue.
    To be honest, I dont really see why we shouldn’t be able to have some members of the government appointed rather than elected. Plenty of other governments around the world permit it, and there seems to be no issue. It also does allow for the appointment of people who are administrators and CEOs by trade, who have a bit more experience in running things than the PPE graduate and SPAD who got themselves a safe seat yet is suddenly tasked with being responsible for the operation of the National Health Service.
    Starmer can always ditch Lammy and appoint Sir Tony Blair as shadow FS
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    The Dalai of AI.
  • Carnyx said:

    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @hoffman_noa

    ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery, The Sun understands

    The word "tsar" is overused. Could she not be given the title "Wokefinder General"?

    EDIT: I see the joke has been made. Apologies for lack of originality.
    Why is is "tsar" anyway? Why not, for example, "kaiser"?
    Same word. All variants of Caesar.
    Though doubt that in 1917-18, Bernard Baruch would have wanted to be dubbed "Industrial Kaiser" of USA!

    Of course the real Czar/Tsar of Russia was deposed in 1918.

    However, thanks to former US Speaker "Czar" Canon, term was already current in US media as synonym for quasi-autocratic leader.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    Full of commonsense though no doubt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,915

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the majority of the public back Braverman's sacking, Sunak will hope having done that and brought Cameron back he will get a small poll boost as well as stabilise his government.

    However 20% of voters saying he was wrong to sack her gives a significant pool for ReformUK to fish in to attract rightwing Tory voters disillusioned with the direction of the Sunak government now

    If you had any sense you would let the fascist supporters head off to RefUK and start cleaning the extremists out of your own party and make them back into a serious political party again.
    The problem is unless centrist swing voters come back from Starmer Labour and the LDs after today's shift back to Cameronism from Sunak, without voters on the right voting Tory but voting RefUK instead that just means even more Tory seats will be lost
    If you want centrist voters back then get rid of your madder right-wing. The Tory Party has been pandering to these idiots for years and they have helped to push you into the mess you currently find yourself in.
    Without the party's right wing, given there is no sign of centrist swing voters coming back to the Tories from centrist Starmer this side of a general election, the party would face near wipe out.

    If Labour get in and inflation rises further and the economy is poor then swing voters might give the Tories a hearing again, until then it is about minimising the loss and that includes keeping most of the right on board.

    Labour of course effectively abandoned centrist voters for the left for 10 years from 2010 to 2020 so can't really criticise. Indeed Sunak, Cameron and Hunt are about as centrist a Tory party as you are likely to get for the next decade
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited November 2023
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    We must preserve what inherent silliness still remains. For example, I don't want to live in a country where MPs can just resign, rather than be appointed as Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds.
  • The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    Today has been a bad day for Suella and a good day for Badenoch. Before today I had Suella as my favourite for next leader. Now I think Badenoch and Mordaunt are both more likely.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    The Dalai of AI.
    The Lama of Internet Truth?
  • Scott_xP said:

    @andreajenkyns

    Enough is enough, I have submitted my vote of no confidence letter to the Chairman of the 1922. It is time for Rishi Sunak to go and replace him with a 'real' Conservative party leader.

    Andrea Jenkyns is basically our version of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
    Do we have a Lauren Boebert?
    Isn't that Nadine Dorries?

    OR is ND the UK MTG?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Any chance of a good Suella blasting Sunak in the Commons?

    Not sure on what grounds she'd do so though, it's not like his policies are that different from what she wants to do, except maybe on the ECHR. He's certainly on board with all the migrant issues.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    I wonder what those Labour MPs would do, if Sir Keir were to call for an immediate Hamas surrender. (It's not going to happen soon, if at all, but it's a good idea. Especially if you care about Gazan civilians.)
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    jonny83 said:

    Utterly shocked to hear Cameron is back in Politics. I remember a few years back there was talk of him looking to get back into Politics but never thought it would happen.

    Overall a fan of his tenure as PM even as someone who voted remain (I was never a die hard remainder, but thought it would be better to stay in than leave).

    Can you be Tory Leader from the Lords?
    It worked for Lord Salisbury over 125 years ago, although Baldwin argued in 1923 that it couldn't possibly work for his rival Lord Curzon.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    I still find it a remarkable quirk of history that this third-rate quarterwit replaced Ed Balls, one of the sharpest intellects in the Commons. Politics is a funny old game.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    The Dalai of AI.
    The Lama of Internet Truth?
    Noooo!

    it has to be the Llama Lama

    https://ai.meta.com/llama/

    Oh God please do it. "Laura Trott, the Llama Lama, said today....."

    OK @kjh has a point, I need fresh air
  • The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    In current No Nation Tory HMG, limit on how many wingnuts may be sacked in single shuffle?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Evening all :)

    "Fire Up the Government" - as someone might have once said. I'm also tempted by the Guardian's view that if David Cameron is seen as the answer, no one has understood the question.

    The role of Foreign Secretary has been progressively diluted over the years first as a result of the emphasis moving to the EU and second the more Presidential nature of politics. As an example of this, the Prime Minister-elect in New Zealand, Christopher Luxon, had wanted his first significant act to be seen shaking President Biden's hand at the APEC summit. It hasn't happended and it's being viewed as a setback

    The second question therefore is what is the deal? Will we see foreign policy move back from the Cabinet Office and No.10 to the FCO? It was Conservative anger with the FCO that did much to undermine Carington in 1982. It will be interesting to see the extent to which Sunak will sub-contract for example the current crisis in Gaza and the Russia-Ukraine war to Cameron.

    The problem is foreign policy butters no parsnips as another former Conservative leader and PM might have said. Apart from @TSE, I doubt many votes have been changed today though as @HYUFD has also opined, the departure of Braverman will infuriate some in the party and might push some Conservatives into the warm embrace of Mr Tice.

    Whether this is Sunak's last throw of the dice I don't know but he is now a prisoner of his own taking. His Chancellor , Foreign and Home Secretaries are not for moving - the polls haven't moved at all in 2023. The Conservative poll rating in tonight's R&W poll is the same as it was in January. HIs former Home Secretary sits brooding on the back benches.

    Short term, a fillip for the Conservatives - longer term, it may make little or no difference at all.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited November 2023

    The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    Today has been a bad day for Suella and a good day for Badenoch. Before today I had Suella as my favourite for next leader. Now I think Badenoch and Mordaunt are both more likely.
    More likely? Perhaps. It wouldn’t be difficult. Suella is done. Likely? No. Penny is too woke for the membership and Bad Enoch is a waste of space.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,400
    Am confused.
    We've just had a Party Conference and King's Speech which veered to the Right in the wake of Uxbridge.
    No effect.
    Now it seems the balance in Cabinet is moving in the other direction.
    Who's the trolley here?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    I just cannot see it myself - sure, Cameron may remind some people in the Shires of the good old days, but the fundamentals haven't changed and it's the Braverman contingent which are most angry and likely to remain so. Absent a change in economic circumstances will Cameron fans returning really outweigh angry Reform leaning types staying home?

    But it has to be congratulated as one of the more surpising moves that's been made in a long time, which is not easy, and very against type for the government.
    Cameron is a creature of The South, I doubt he'll travel well north of Birmingham
    But he does travel to Birmingham to see his beloved Aston Ham United.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Nigelb said: "Massive crack emitting steam.
    https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1724106414115950756 "

    As I said here quite recently, we need to be prepared for global cooling, as well as global warming.

    This precedent should worry all of us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    Roger said:

    I quite like Cameron. He shows up his colleagues for the minnows they are. Starmer and Sunak too I'm afraid. If he could get Steve Hilton back on board it would be game on.


    Probably the shrewdest move by Sunak yet is to bring back Cameron. He's catnip to the Tory shires and will stop the bleeding of votes to the LD's. And all those millions Cameron made..time has moved on, and Johnson lowered the bar of probity that Cameron's ventures look tame in comparison.
    I just cannot see it myself - sure, Cameron may remind some people in the Shires of the good old days, but the fundamentals haven't changed and it's the Braverman contingent which are most angry and likely to remain so. Absent a change in economic circumstances will Cameron fans returning really outweigh angry Reform leaning types staying home?

    But it has to be congratulated as one of the more surpising moves that's been made in a long time, which is not easy, and very against type for the government.
    Cameron is a creature of The South, I doubt he'll travel well north of Birmingham
    But he does travel to Birmingham to see his beloved Aston Ham United.
    That explains HS2
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    Any chance of a good Suella blasting Sunak in the Commons?

    Not sure on what grounds she'd do so though, it's not like his policies are that different from what she wants to do, except maybe on the ECHR. He's certainly on board with all the migrant issues.

    Suella now has a choice.

    She either goes full right wing Trumpian whackjob, attacks the government at every turn, ends up saying something even more egregiously offensive than she’s managed thus far, gets the whip removed and probably in the long term ends up doing the early evening slot on GB News….

    Or she keeps her power dry for a little while and then comes back after an election defeat with an “I was right, we weren’t right wing enough” gambit and tries for the leadership.

    However, by now being tied to the events of the weekend, I suspect she has damaged her ability to attract support from MPs.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    Nigelb said: "Massive crack emitting steam.
    https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1724106414115950756 "

    As I said here quite recently, we need to be prepared for global cooling, as well as global warming.

    This precedent should worry all of us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki

    oh dont go off upsetting people we are all going to die, were doomed !
  • TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    Politico.com - George Santos sent thank you notes to members who voted against expelling him earlier this week. [Nov. 3]

    https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2023/11/03/congress/santos-says-thanks-00125253

    Read [Rep. Jamie] Raskin's hand-written reply.

    https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000018b-9653-da71-a98f-b7f7e89d0000
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    I’m grimly fascinated by the mock-football transfer tweets from the @Conservatives Twitter account. They are ridiculously cringey but I guess that’s the intention.

    https://twitter.com/conservatives
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    Today has been a bad day for Suella and a good day for Badenoch. Before today I had Suella as my favourite for next leader. Now I think Badenoch and Mordaunt are both more likely.
    More likely, perhaps. It wouldn’t be difficult. Suella is done. Likely? No. Penny is too woke for the membership and Bad Enoch is a waste of space.
    I think Suella is done and dusted too.

    You really can't incite riots as a Home Secretary, and that's precisely what she did. If you carelessly do so then you're going to need to have massive support from your colleagues, and particularly the senior colleagues that you've been working with, and she doesn't have that.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    kle4 said:

    Any chance of a good Suella blasting Sunak in the Commons?

    Not sure on what grounds she'd do so though, it's not like his policies are that different from what she wants to do, except maybe on the ECHR. He's certainly on board with all the migrant issues.

    Does she get a speech when she’s been sacked rather than resigned? (No exchange of letters so no fiction). Not something I’ve seen before.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    Have we any evidence this *wasn’t* the case?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,828
    kle4 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    We must preserve what inherent silliness still remains. For example, I don't want to live in a country where MPs can just resign, rather than be appointed as Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds.
    Or vote by smelling each others' eructations in a crowded queue.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Omnium said:

    The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    Today has been a bad day for Suella and a good day for Badenoch. Before today I had Suella as my favourite for next leader. Now I think Badenoch and Mordaunt are both more likely.
    More likely, perhaps. It wouldn’t be difficult. Suella is done. Likely? No. Penny is too woke for the membership and Bad Enoch is a waste of space.
    I think Suella is done and dusted too.

    You really can't incite riots as a Home Secretary, and that's precisely what she did. If you carelessly do so then you're going to need to have massive support from your colleagues, and particularly the senior colleagues that you've been working with, and she doesn't have that.
    PS. I wonder if she'll get deselected. If I lived in Far-away-ham, I'd be oiling the (metaphorical) ropes.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    jonny83 said:

    Utterly shocked to hear Cameron is back in Politics. I remember a few years back there was talk of him looking to get back into Politics but never thought it would happen.

    Overall a fan of his tenure as PM even as someone who voted remain (I was never a die hard remainder, but thought it would be better to stay in than leave).

    Can you be Tory Leader from the Lords?
    Law, yes; convention, no.
  • The most stunning news is that Bad Enoch, the most invisible and ineffectual Secretary of State since the English Civil War, appears to have survived this reshuffle.

    Today has been a bad day for Suella and a good day for Badenoch. Before today I had Suella as my favourite for next leader. Now I think Badenoch and Mordaunt are both more likely.
    More likely? Perhaps. It wouldn’t be difficult. Suella is done. Likely? No. Penny is too woke for the membership and Bad Enoch is a waste of space.
    Mordaunt is consistently popular with the membership (see ConservativeHome polls), despite the accusations of wokery, and nearly made the second round in the post-Boris contest.

    Badenoch hasn’t been a spectacular cabinet member (to put it very mildly), but she speaks the language of the right of the Party, and she will now likely inherit a lot of Braverman’s support as the culture-war-y, anti-wokey favourite.

    There are good reasons why it looks like being one of those two. Sadly, competence as a cabinet minister has never been a bar to further success.

    The wildcard now is Cleverly, IMHO.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Will there be parts of the media that will start to hold a grudge against Sunak? Not briefing to anyone about Cameron beforehand.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,828
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Entirely unfairly I think that has the name Gove written all over it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Bring back George Osborne and Labour will struggle.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Nigelb said: "Massive crack emitting steam.
    https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1724106414115950756 "

    As I said here quite recently, we need to be prepared for global cooling, as well as global warming.

    This precedent should worry all of us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki

    An eruption of the scale of Laki is unlikely. This is probably going to be a fissure eruption but no indication at the moment that it will be plinian or SO2 rich.

    Will be fun to watch though. I wonder what kind of disaster insurance the blue lagoon has.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited November 2023

    TimS said:

    Just read Andrea Jenkyns' letter. It's incredibly badly written. She doesn't even appear to know where to put full stops. It's like a rambling whatsapp penned while drunk.

    Have we any evidence this *wasn’t* the case?
    Indeed. Occam’s Razor and all that.
  • This is a day long to be remembered. It has seen the end of Suella. It shall soon see the end of the Tory Party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    For some political leaders I can see plenty of takers for the position. Tell me Trump couldn't get someone to do it.

    It is a matter of some debate as to whether the duties involved cleaning the king's anus, but the groom is known to have been responsible for supplying a bowl, water and towels and also for monitoring the king's diet and bowel movements
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_Stool
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,662
    There was a Home Sec. called Suella
    Who saw in street tents a favela
    When she opened her gob
    And incited the mob
    Her career soon became not so stellar
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    The vote on Wednesday re the ceasefire may still not happen . It’s upto the Speaker to decide on amendments and it’s not certain he’ll chose the SNP one .

    And there’s of course still time for Labour to put forward their own amendment . As for the 17 front benchers expecting to be sacked. Maybe Starmer in light of a lot going on in the media will allow a free vote , Wednesday is also the SC ruling so attention might be away from Labours dramas .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    dixiedean said:

    Am confused.
    We've just had a Party Conference and King's Speech which veered to the Right in the wake of Uxbridge.
    No effect.
    Now it seems the balance in Cabinet is moving in the other direction.
    Who's the trolley here?

    I don’t know, but the Tories have been riding all of us for years.

    Now that I’ve had a chance to consider it, Rishi has missed another opportunity here. He should simply have fired Braverman and replaced him temporarily with her number two (Tom Tugendhat).

    He could then have done a full re-shuffle after the Autumn Statement, since it is widely rumoured that Hunt will retire at the next election.

    Cameron adds gravitas, but not much else, and he seems to provoke the backbenches.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Shall we commission some privateers to sort the balance of trade as well?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    "Fire Up the Government" - as someone might have once said. I'm also tempted by the Guardian's view that if David Cameron is seen as the answer, no one has understood the question.

    The role of Foreign Secretary has been progressively diluted over the years first as a result of the emphasis moving to the EU and second the more Presidential nature of politics. As an example of this, the Prime Minister-elect in New Zealand, Christopher Luxon, had wanted his first significant act to be seen shaking President Biden's hand at the APEC summit. It hasn't happended and it's being viewed as a setback

    The second question therefore is what is the deal? Will we see foreign policy move back from the Cabinet Office and No.10 to the FCO? It was Conservative anger with the FCO that did much to undermine Carington in 1982. It will be interesting to see the extent to which Sunak will sub-contract for example the current crisis in Gaza and the Russia-Ukraine war to Cameron.

    The problem is foreign policy butters no parsnips as another former Conservative leader and PM might have said. Apart from @TSE, I doubt many votes have been changed today though as @HYUFD has also opined, the departure of Braverman will infuriate some in the party and might push some Conservatives into the warm embrace of Mr Tice.

    Whether this is Sunak's last throw of the dice I don't know but he is now a prisoner of his own taking. His Chancellor , Foreign and Home Secretaries are not for moving - the polls haven't moved at all in 2023. The Conservative poll rating in tonight's R&W poll is the same as it was in January. HIs former Home Secretary sits brooding on the back benches.

    Short term, a fillip for the Conservatives - longer term, it may make little or no difference at all.

    The possible difference is simply this: Sunak, barring further black swans, can't win, but today may make a difference to the manner in which he loses.

    Does he want to lose as a rancorous Braverman style rabble of Reform/Lozza/Goodwin lookalikes; or does he want to lose as a decent looking bunch of Tories who could have within them the seeds of winning within 10 years.

    He knows in his heart that the polls are not showing a massive Labour win because the Tories aren't sufficiently populist right wing.
  • HYUFD said:


    [snip!]
    Labour of course effectively abandoned centrist voters for the left for 10 years from 2010 to 2020

    Just remind me again how they did in elections after abandoning the centre. Was it great success?
    HYUFD said:

    ... so can't really criticise.

    Of course I can criticise. I am not a natural Labour voter. I used to be a natural Conservative voter.
    HYUFD said:

    Indeed Sunak, Cameron and Hunt are about as centrist a Tory party as you are likely to get for the next decade

    Well then, enjoy Opposition...
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    Omnium said:

    This is very good from Sunak. He's cleared away the baggage from the weird drama of the last few years (May, Boris, and Truss all get sideswiped - a little unfair on May)

    Back to sensible mainstream Tory politics. (Doubt it'll stick, but it's a very impressive attempt)

    It's definitely a return to the mainstream and a notable coup de theatre at the same time.

    Rishi never really convinced as a culture wars warrior or as an overturner of the established order. And has evidently given up on that to become a much more conventional Conservative PM. I think he'll be happy with that. Authenticity is no bad thing.

    This reshuffle does more than that though. Crucially, by sacking Braverman, and springing the Cameron surprise, he's shown he still has some agency of his own, and effectively rebutted the charge of being "weak" which Labour have been desperate to pin on him, as they did Major in the run-up to 97. This is a big win if it sticks.

    Overall, none of this will make much difference polling-wise in the short-term but if there ever is a recovery between now and the election, this will be seen as the turning-point. That's a big if.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    biggles said:

    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Shall we commission some privateers to sort the balance of trade as well?
    Excellent, and why not ? Make our new FS earn his grog.
  • dixiedean said:

    Am confused.
    We've just had a Party Conference and King's Speech which veered to the Right in the wake of Uxbridge.
    No effect.
    Now it seems the balance in Cabinet is moving in the other direction.
    Who's the trolley here?

    I don’t know, but the Tories have been riding all of us for years.

    Now that I’ve had a chance to consider it, Rishi has missed another opportunity here. He should simply have fired Braverman and replaced him temporarily with her number two (Tom Tugendhat).

    He could then have done a full re-shuffle after the Autumn Statement, since it is widely rumoured that Hunt will retire at the next election.

    Cameron adds gravitas, but not much else, and he seems to provoke the backbenches.
    He has one more trick up his sleeve…

    If Hunt does go shortly before the election, there is another former PM waiting in the wings to take on the daunting role of chancellor. Whose wealth of cabinet experience and economic nous will change the narrative.

    Liz Truss, thy hour is at hand.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Add it to the duties of the Clerk of the Closet - which does exist.
  • dixiedean said:

    Am confused.
    We've just had a Party Conference and King's Speech which veered to the Right in the wake of Uxbridge.
    No effect.
    Now it seems the balance in Cabinet is moving in the other direction.
    Who's the trolley here?

    I don’t know, but the Tories have been riding all of us for years.

    Now that I’ve had a chance to consider it, Rishi has missed another opportunity here. He should simply have fired Braverman and replaced him temporarily with her number two (Tom Tugendhat).

    He could then have done a full re-shuffle after the Autumn Statement, since it is widely rumoured that Hunt will retire at the next election.

    Cameron adds gravitas, but not much else, and he seems to provoke the backbenches.
    Also just barely possible, that David Cameron might (emphasis on conditional) be able to have some positive influence on resolving current wars in Ukraine and Gaza.

    CHANGING THE SUBJECT, what is your (very early) view of the new government of New Zealand?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    Omnium said:

    This is very good from Sunak. He's cleared away the baggage from the weird drama of the last few years (May, Boris, and Truss all get sideswiped - a little unfair on May)

    Back to sensible mainstream Tory politics. (Doubt it'll stick, but it's a very impressive attempt)

    It's definitely a return to the mainstream and a notable coup de theatre at the same time.

    Rishi never really convinced as a culture wars warrior or as an overturner of the established order. And has evidently given up on that to become a much more conventional Conservative PM. I think he'll be happy with that. Authenticity is no bad thing.

    This reshuffle does more than that though. Crucially, by sacking Braverman, and springing the Cameron surprise, he's shown he still has some agency of his own, and effectively rebutted the charge of being "weak" which Labour have been desperate to pin on him, as they did Major in the run-up to 97. This is a big win if it sticks.

    Overall, none of this will make much difference polling-wise in the short-term but if there ever is a recovery between now and the election, this will be seen as the turning-point. That's a big if.
    Turning to someone who isn't even in Parliament is a sign of strength - it's very easy to say Cameron is now Foreign Secretary because Rishi couldn't find anyone else to do the job..
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    "Fire Up the Government" - as someone might have once said. I'm also tempted by the Guardian's view that if David Cameron is seen as the answer, no one has understood the question.

    The role of Foreign Secretary has been progressively diluted over the years first as a result of the emphasis moving to the EU and second the more Presidential nature of politics. As an example of this, the Prime Minister-elect in New Zealand, Christopher Luxon, had wanted his first significant act to be seen shaking President Biden's hand at the APEC summit. It hasn't happended and it's being viewed as a setback

    The second question therefore is what is the deal? Will we see foreign policy move back from the Cabinet Office and No.10 to the FCO? It was Conservative anger with the FCO that did much to undermine Carington in 1982. It will be interesting to see the extent to which Sunak will sub-contract for example the current crisis in Gaza and the Russia-Ukraine war to Cameron.

    The problem is foreign policy butters no parsnips as another former Conservative leader and PM might have said. Apart from @TSE, I doubt many votes have been changed today though as @HYUFD has also opined, the departure of Braverman will infuriate some in the party and might push some Conservatives into the warm embrace of Mr Tice.

    Whether this is Sunak's last throw of the dice I don't know but he is now a prisoner of his own taking. His Chancellor , Foreign and Home Secretaries are not for moving - the polls haven't moved at all in 2023. The Conservative poll rating in tonight's R&W poll is the same as it was in January. HIs former Home Secretary sits brooding on the back benches.

    Short term, a fillip for the Conservatives - longer term, it may make little or no difference at all.

    My guess is it will slightly help him. People misread reshuffles. They assume it is all about getting an immediate poll boost. When nothing changes everyone thinks what was the point? The reality is that Sunak has removed a loose cannon and unpopular figure in Braverman. That may mean fewer problems for him down the road. However he should continue to press the issue of policing and consistency as well as looking at the people behind these demos. Cleverly's statement seemed like an attempt to reassure the Jewish community.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    There was a Home Sec. called Suella
    Who saw in street tents a favela
    When she opened her gob
    And incited the mob
    Her career soon became not so stellar

    Suella, Suella, cried the fella
    He was drunk as a skunk
    And his lady was sunk
    History will be very grateful for it too.
  • biggles said:

    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Shall we commission some privateers to sort the balance of trade as well?
    Aye! Aye!! Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    "Fire Up the Government" - as someone might have once said. I'm also tempted by the Guardian's view that if David Cameron is seen as the answer, no one has understood the question.

    The role of Foreign Secretary has been progressively diluted over the years first as a result of the emphasis moving to the EU and second the more Presidential nature of politics. As an example of this, the Prime Minister-elect in New Zealand, Christopher Luxon, had wanted his first significant act to be seen shaking President Biden's hand at the APEC summit. It hasn't happended and it's being viewed as a setback

    The second question therefore is what is the deal? Will we see foreign policy move back from the Cabinet Office and No.10 to the FCO? It was Conservative anger with the FCO that did much to undermine Carington in 1982. It will be interesting to see the extent to which Sunak will sub-contract for example the current crisis in Gaza and the Russia-Ukraine war to Cameron.

    The problem is foreign policy butters no parsnips as another former Conservative leader and PM might have said. Apart from @TSE, I doubt many votes have been changed today though as @HYUFD has also opined, the departure of Braverman will infuriate some in the party and might push some Conservatives into the warm embrace of Mr Tice.

    Whether this is Sunak's last throw of the dice I don't know but he is now a prisoner of his own taking. His Chancellor , Foreign and Home Secretaries are not for moving - the polls haven't moved at all in 2023. The Conservative poll rating in tonight's R&W poll is the same as it was in January. HIs former Home Secretary sits brooding on the back benches.

    Short term, a fillip for the Conservatives - longer term, it may make little or no difference at all.

    My guess is it will slightly help him. People misread reshuffles. They assume it is all about getting an immediate poll boost. When nothing changes everyone thinks what was the point? The reality is that Sunak has removed a loose cannon and unpopular figure in Braverman. That may mean fewer problems for him down the road. However he should continue to press the issue of policing and consistency as well as looking at the people behind these demos. Cleverly's statement seemed like an attempt to reassure the Jewish community.
    The HS job is a bag of poo. You cant intervene in police decisions or stop boats but you get the blame anyway.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    I seem to remember that Hezza revived the use of the title "President of the Board of Trade". Romantic Welshman and all that. His successor, Ian Lang I think, dropped it and went back to being the boring old SoS for Trade and Industry. Shame.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,828

    biggles said:

    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    Shall we commission some privateers to sort the balance of trade as well?
    Excellent, and why not ? Make our new FS earn his grog.
    Need to reinstall the gallows at Execution Dock, though.
  • kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    Yes, exactly, more drama and theatre is needed

    "Addressing the House, Andrea Leadsom, recently appointed Intergalactic Warlord of Heat Pump Installation"
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    We need more of these titles to really address our problems - the problem is not the issues, it's the titles. They aren't inspiring. "Deputy Minister for Work and Pensions". YAWN. How about

    The River Pollution Reichskommisar

    The Wheelie Bin Obersturmfuhrer

    The Great Mongol Khan of the Golden Horde of Litter Collection

    We used to be good at it. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Paymaster General.

    It all went down hill when we started having “departments” rather than ministries and we lost the bottle to have a Ministry of War.
    President of the Board of Trade had a decent ring to it. Any idea what happened to that? Business Secretary is a bit shit, has echoes of taking the minutes in 1980s sales meetings.
    I think the incumbent still has to be President of the Lord of Trade (like the Justice Sec still has to be Lord Chancellor) but they don’t use the titles.

    The campaign to bring them back starts here. Are you reading Sir Keir?
    Bring back also the Groom of the King's Close Stool, why not?
    For some political leaders I can see plenty of takers for the position. Tell me Trump couldn't get someone to do it.

    It is a matter of some debate as to whether the duties involved cleaning the king's anus, but the groom is known to have been responsible for supplying a bowl, water and towels and also for monitoring the king's diet and bowel movements
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_Stool
    "Looks like same old shit to me, Commander-in-Chief."
This discussion has been closed.