Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
IIRC several PB posters were interested in this topic:
I see no reason why we can't let EU citizens visit the UK with their ID cards. Yes I know we're not in the EU any more but we set our own border policy. I was in two non-EU countries recently on holiday and I am fairly sure that's what they do.
And a driver's eye view of the longer of the two lines, which shows how it has been integrated into the city quite well in old corridors and I think corridors reserved long ago - surprisingly little of it is on the road carriageway. Run this one at double speed.
IIRC several PB posters were interested in this topic:
We’ve been trialling it for a while in Jersey, but for any French nationals not just school trips, and it’s been v successful. Brought back the day trip figures to pre-Brexit levels.
The gov in Jersey are meeting UK gov early next year to try and increase the time period to allow trips of a few days on ID cards.
It’s obviously a lot easier to police in a small island but hopefully it is a good testing ground so that it can be rolled out more widely for the UK and EU in the near future.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
If America elects Trump, there won't be another free election.
You do realise this is exactly what the MAGA crowd were saying about Biden winning the 2020 election don't you? And I suspect you are as wrong on that one as they were.
Not that I want a Trump win, and I would be very distrurbed by the implications internationally. But this end of democracy stuff does get overplayed somewhat.
I think Trump’s attempt to overturn the 2020 election counts as an attempt to end democracy.
I fear that was the Beer Hall Putsch and we know what followed next.
That was the point of the video I posted. Similar mythologising of an illegal farce.
https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1720191992578122193 Trump salutes at his rally while they play an altered version of the national anthem featuring violent January 6 insurrectionists: “I call them the J6 hostages, not prisoners”
IIRC several PB posters were interested in this topic:
We’ve been trialling it for a while in Jersey, but for any French nationals not just school trips, and it’s been v successful. Brought back the day trip figures to pre-Brexit levels.
The gov in Jersey are meeting UK gov early next year to try and increase the time period to allow trips of a few days on ID cards.
It’s obviously a lot easier to police in a small island but hopefully it is a good testing ground so that it can be rolled out more widely for the UK and EU in the near future.
Why can't EU ID cards be used as passports full stop? I can't imagine they are any less secure and we continue to accept them as primary ID at the DWP, for example. Unlike the EU we don't insist on stamping passports
IIRC several PB posters were interested in this topic:
I see no reason why we can't let EU citizens visit the UK with their ID cards. Yes I know we're not in the EU any more but we set our own border policy. I was in two non-EU countries recently on holiday and I am fairly sure that's what they do.
The stated reason is that they are easier to forge.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
Support for Israel's actions is definitely dropping. I'm interested in seeing what Blinken's visit throws up. Perhaps a 24-hour pause for some more lorries to come in.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
I don't think that's the issue with that comment. It was a deliberate downplaying (indeed, effectively ignoring) of Hamas' actions to in effect claim that antisemitism was not the driver of the pro-Palestinian protests.
Now, it may not be driving all of them. If fifty thousand people turn up at a protest there are probably fifty thousand reasons for them to do so.
But to think it isn't a big part is simply idiotic. Just as (for example) to try and excuse McDonald's comments on the basis of, 'that wasn't what he meant' are idiotic.
And to forget how evil Hamas are, is idiotic.
The fact that the inevitable Israeli overreaction of carpet bombing Gaza was also clearly part of their plan seems to be rather overlooked by their apologists, who in any case are as we see are trying to forget what kicked this off.
For Palestine to be free - in any sense and in any location - Hamas does have to be got rid of.
That also means getting rid of their useful idiots in Israel, like Netanyahu, who have propped them up for their own reasons. And then starting again on both sides.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
Simon Coveney (or Noveney as the satirists have it) hasn't been foreign minister since the last rotation of the rotisserie Taoiseach. The Tánaiste, Micháel Martin, now has that as one of his portfolio of jobs.
My wife said that she couldn't help but see the parallel between what is happening in Gaza now as equivalent to the British carpet-bombing Dublin after an IRA terrorist attack during the Troubles. I think this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, and it's lead to some difficult discussions, but you can see some common elements - a militarily more powerful neighbour against whom you are essentially defenceless, who is occupying land you believe belongs to you, and who allows your people in the occupied territories to be treated as second-class citizens.
I think it's generally a positive thing that Ireland feels comfortable enough to state its case, even though I disagree with it, rather than feeling that it has to toe the line from the US or the EU. I guess that's a difference between the relationships democracies have with each other and totalitarian regimes.
Obviously that will have some consequence for Ireland. It can't help but damage relationships at the margins, but I wouldn't have thought the damage would be all that significant if only because Ireland isn't that significant. Which does make the decision by political leaders in office to be so outspoken about it all the more curious. Not sure what good the Taoiseach thinks will come of providing a live commentary on whether the Israeli military response is proportionate or revengeful. They could have stayed away from that and concentrated on the humanitarian and ceasefire aspects.
IIRC several PB posters were interested in this topic:
We’ve been trialling it for a while in Jersey, but for any French nationals not just school trips, and it’s been v successful. Brought back the day trip figures to pre-Brexit levels.
The gov in Jersey are meeting UK gov early next year to try and increase the time period to allow trips of a few days on ID cards.
It’s obviously a lot easier to police in a small island but hopefully it is a good testing ground so that it can be rolled out more widely for the UK and EU in the near future.
Why can't EU ID cards be used as passports full stop? I can't imagine they are any less secure and we continue to accept them as primary ID at the DWP, for example. Unlike the EU we don't insist on stamping passports
I guess it’s largely a case of both sides taking the extreme view of Brexit and so being maximalist on everything and as the heat dies down and time passes then people can fear losing face less by opening up to tweaks and practical cooperation. The UK gov had to show they were doing “serious Brexit” and the EU had to show that leaving is brutal to deter others.
I think over time both sides will find “special circumstances” to bend rules where there is no real mortal peril to either side by certain barriers being left up after the initial “it’s war” posturing at the time and for a period after.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
I'd imagine the police will close Whitehall and no-one laying wreaths will know there are thousands of marchers stopped half a mile away. Come to think of it, that is probably what happens every year.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Are there not enough depressing things in the world already without adding that thought?
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Blame Labour for the state of the country after 14 years of Tory rule, much as they've done up to now.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Blame Labour for the state of the country after 14 years of Tory rule, much as they've done up to now.
So no different to the Blair and Brown regimes still merrily blaming the Tories up to 2010 for the parlous state of the country.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Russia is weak now, as everyone has noticed, but everyone includes the Kremlin which will be firing up Russian arms factories and in a few years the Russian army will have an all-new tank fleet (its old one having gone missing) augmented by thousands of drones.
Simon Coveney (or Noveney as the satirists have it) hasn't been foreign minister since the last rotation of the rotisserie Taoiseach. The Tánaiste, Micháel Martin, now has that as one of his portfolio of jobs.
My wife said that she couldn't help but see the parallel between what is happening in Gaza now as equivalent to the British carpet-bombing Dublin after an IRA terrorist attack during the Troubles. I think this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, and it's lead to some difficult discussions, but you can see some common elements - a militarily more powerful neighbour against whom you are essentially defenceless, who is occupying land you believe belongs to you, and who allows your people in the occupied territories to be treated as second-class citizens.
I think it's generally a positive thing that Ireland feels comfortable enough to state its case, even though I disagree with it, rather than feeling that it has to toe the line from the US or the EU. I guess that's a difference between the relationships democracies have with each other and totalitarian regimes.
Obviously that will have some consequence for Ireland. It can't help but damage relationships at the margins, but I wouldn't have thought the damage would be all that significant if only because Ireland isn't that significant. Which does make the decision by political leaders in office to be so outspoken about it all the more curious. Not sure what good the Taoiseach thinks will come of providing a live commentary on whether the Israeli military response is proportionate or revengeful. They could have stayed away from that and concentrated on the humanitarian and ceasefire aspects.
Presumably it is to do with domestic politics - there is a realistic prospect of Sinn Fein topping the polls and it seems clear having a pro-Palestinian stance goes down well with at least a significant chunk of the Irish electorate. I'm assuming neither FF or FG want to be outflanked by SF saying they should be more critical of Israel hence the statements.
Simon Coveney (or Noveney as the satirists have it) hasn't been foreign minister since the last rotation of the rotisserie Taoiseach. The Tánaiste, Micháel Martin, now has that as one of his portfolio of jobs.
My wife said that she couldn't help but see the parallel between what is happening in Gaza now as equivalent to the British carpet-bombing Dublin after an IRA terrorist attack during the Troubles. I think this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, and it's lead to some difficult discussions, but you can see some common elements - a militarily more powerful neighbour against whom you are essentially defenceless, who is occupying land you believe belongs to you, and who allows your people in the occupied territories to be treated as second-class citizens.
I think it's generally a positive thing that Ireland feels comfortable enough to state its case, even though I disagree with it, rather than feeling that it has to toe the line from the US or the EU. I guess that's a difference between the relationships democracies have with each other and totalitarian regimes.
Obviously that will have some consequence for Ireland. It can't help but damage relationships at the margins, but I wouldn't have thought the damage would be all that significant if only because Ireland isn't that significant. Which does make the decision by political leaders in office to be so outspoken about it all the more curious. Not sure what good the Taoiseach thinks will come of providing a live commentary on whether the Israeli military response is proportionate or revengeful. They could have stayed away from that and concentrated on the humanitarian and ceasefire aspects.
The slight difference there is that the Irish government was rather anti-PIRA all the way through the Troubles. They condemned every act of violence - by both paramilitary sides - and imprisoned a number of PIRA people on criminal charges relating to the conflict.
This was because the SDLP was the core of a non-violent, social democratic response to the issues that lead to the Troubles. Throughout, they were supported in this, and treated as the leadership of the Catholic community in NI, by the various Irish governments.
Re yesterday's thread, which I refrained from posting on, I do think the media including pb.com are desperate to find anything which makes the next General Election appear less of a slam dunk than it currently appears.
I fear you are chasing shadows. These missing millions of wannabe tory voters are as much a fantasy as La Buse's treasure.
If they ever really existed they weren't true Conservative voters. They were 'Get Brexit Done' voters. That era has passed, along with their memories. They will not come back.
The national opinion polls are correct. Labour are on course for a significant win.
But fantasise away, if it keeps you occupied.
xx
I think it is always worth bearing in mind that the Tories have won an overall majority at only two general elections in the last 30 years. And of those the last one really was exceptional, and treating their 2019 voters as the "Tory base" is a very questionable thing to do.
Leaving aside the question of how 'exceptional' 2019 was (it wasn't, in fact it reflected trends that had been going on for well over a decade that were masked by the genuine outlier in 2017) let's take your logic a stage further. Labour have won three overall majorities in the last 30 years. Four in 50 years. Six in 70 years.
The problem is not the paucity of majorities - that's in many ways a good thing - the problem is the long periods in government each party is getting.
I think this is the fourth unstoppable trend I've had pointed out to me over the years. The previous three all broke and receded and next year this one will too.
2017 and 2019 were both outliers and in different directions but for exactly the same basic reasons. Really very interesting for historians of the future.
Are there real trends - yes. Mining seats becoming OAP seats has moved them right. London and the South coast have moved left. The comfortable no longer see Lab tax cuts as the biggest threat to their comfort. The 'White right' no longer see the Cons as their natural defenders. Scotland is a whole different picture. Lots of swirling currents that sometimes pull one way and sometimes the other.
One thing is certain - the number of party loyalists, donkey voters, has been in decline for decades and if anything the decline is speeding up. Parties can't rely on them keeping the faith and can't rely on them turning out. That is why big majorities will no longer guarantee a long term in government. That was true for Johnson and it would also be true for Starmer. If he has a majority of 100 then he will still have to earn those votes for the next time. That should keep Lab suppporters awake at night.
However, if Lab fails then don't assume those voters will switch to the Cons - especially if they are fielding tired old hacks from the Johnson/Truss/Sunak era. That is perhaps the real oppportunity for the likes of Ref UK, the LDs and the Greens. That should keep Con suppporters awake at night.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
A good tut, I suspect. Maybe even an eye roll. The extent we go not to upset 'communities' has long since stopped surprising me (I'm looking at YOU, the FA, only because you happen to be nearest).
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Russia is not going away. It will rebuild its army. And there's always ourselves. It's not impossible that autocratic governments in growing military powers like Turkey or Poland could present problems within the next decade or do.
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Blame Labour for the state of the country after 14 years of Tory rule, much as they've done up to now.
So no different to the Blair and Brown regimes still merrily blaming the Tories up to 2010 for the parlous state of the country.
Politicians being politicians, eh !!
Quite different. Listen to what government ministers are saying, especially as they position themselves for the next leadership election. It is not that 13 years of Conservative rule has led to unparalleled prosperity so don't let Labour ruin it.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Russia is weak now, as everyone has noticed, but everyone includes the Kremlin which will be firing up Russian arms factories and in a few years the Russian army will have an all-new tank fleet (its old one having gone missing) augmented by thousands of drones.
They will need to get their economy moving again first. And find some young people to work in it. I think Russia is more likely to splinter than return as an international force to be reckoned with and that will be perilous enough with nukes lying around.
But I take your point about drones. There is no guarantee that a new fleet of tanks will be needed or useful. I think we are at a similar point to the battle of Hampton Roads in the American civil war when an armoured ship showed that all the wooden ships in the mighty Royal navy were now redundant.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I don't recognise Roger's description of who the little guy and the big guy is in this situtaion. Israel is a tiny, resourceless country with no strategic depth and almost no natural resources, surrounded by enemies who want to wipe it and its entire population off the face of the map, and within living memory have tried to do so. That strikes me as 'little guy' territory.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
He won't leave NATO, but could any NATO member count on Trumpistan if they were under military threat? I think not.
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Russia is weak now, as everyone has noticed, but everyone includes the Kremlin which will be firing up Russian arms factories and in a few years the Russian army will have an all-new tank fleet (its old one having gone missing) augmented by thousands of drones.
They will need to get their economy moving again first. And find some young people to work in it. I think Russia is more likely to splinter than return as an international force to be reckoned with and that will be perilous enough with nukes lying around.
But I take your point about drones. There is no guarantee that a new fleet of tanks will be needed or useful. I think we are at a similar point to the battle of Hampton Roads in the American civil war when an armoured ship showed that all the wooden ships in the mighty Royal navy were now redundant.
What we laughingly refer to as the Russian economy is mainly dig-and-sell commodities which will soon have the roubles rolling in once sanctions are lifted.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
MLE or Multicultural London English replaced traditional London accents at least 20 years ago; I'm not sure why the topic is suddenly newsworthy. It is probably due to mass immigration and satellite television.
Are we allowed to wear poppies to remember the British soldiers killed by the Stern gang and allies? Or are we allowed to forget about them?
Aside from a few old buffers wondering if then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin could be arrested as he visited London in the 1980s, we've moved on. As the British Empire retreated, it was common for countries to be led by those previously "jailed by the British" as Sir Humphrey told Jim Hacker.
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
Nato cannot, of course, but it will be interesting to see if it renews calls for EU-wide defence forces (under French control and equipped with French weapons bought with German Euros).
The biggest danger that Europe faced was the alleged might of the red Army. Since its destruction in Ukraine it is not obvious what we need NATO to protect ourselves from. We have common interests with many of its members and it is clearly different when looked at from the prospective of eastern European countries on the front line with a sociopath but from the western European perspective we have probably never been less under threat.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Russia is weak now, as everyone has noticed, but everyone includes the Kremlin which will be firing up Russian arms factories and in a few years the Russian army will have an all-new tank fleet (its old one having gone missing) augmented by thousands of drones.
They will need to get their economy moving again first. And find some young people to work in it. I think Russia is more likely to splinter than return as an international force to be reckoned with and that will be perilous enough with nukes lying around.
But I take your point about drones. There is no guarantee that a new fleet of tanks will be needed or useful. I think we are at a similar point to the battle of Hampton Roads in the American civil war when an armoured ship showed that all the wooden ships in the mighty Royal navy were now redundant.
HMS Warrior was in service by then.
The Merrimack was inspired by the floating batteries of the Crimean war - which were rather more sea worthy. Despite the name, the floating batteries were self propelled warships, though often assisted with a tow when on long voyages.
Turrets designed by Cole’s had been trialed on HMS Trusty - one of the floating batteries.
The turret ships HMS Royal Sovereign and HMS Prince Albert were ordered before the battle of Hampton Roads.
Coles and Ericsson had a long argument about who was first with turrets. Only ended by Cole’s death on the turret ship he designed - HMS Captain…
Simon Coveney (or Noveney as the satirists have it) hasn't been foreign minister since the last rotation of the rotisserie Taoiseach. The Tánaiste, Micháel Martin, now has that as one of his portfolio of jobs.
My wife said that she couldn't help but see the parallel between what is happening in Gaza now as equivalent to the British carpet-bombing Dublin after an IRA terrorist attack during the Troubles. I think this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, and it's lead to some difficult discussions, but you can see some common elements - a militarily more powerful neighbour against whom you are essentially defenceless, who is occupying land you believe belongs to you, and who allows your people in the occupied territories to be treated as second-class citizens.
I think it's generally a positive thing that Ireland feels comfortable enough to state its case, even though I disagree with it, rather than feeling that it has to toe the line from the US or the EU. I guess that's a difference between the relationships democracies have with each other and totalitarian regimes.
Obviously that will have some consequence for Ireland. It can't help but damage relationships at the margins, but I wouldn't have thought the damage would be all that significant if only because Ireland isn't that significant. Which does make the decision by political leaders in office to be so outspoken about it all the more curious. Not sure what good the Taoiseach thinks will come of providing a live commentary on whether the Israeli military response is proportionate or revengeful. They could have stayed away from that and concentrated on the humanitarian and ceasefire aspects.
The slight difference there is that the Irish government was rather anti-PIRA all the way through the Troubles. They condemned every act of violence - by both paramilitary sides - and imprisoned a number of PIRA people on criminal charges relating to the conflict.
This was because the SDLP was the core of a non-violent, social democratic response to the issues that lead to the Troubles. Throughout, they were supported in this, and treated as the leadership of the Catholic community in NI, by the various Irish governments.
Yes. I think we would have seen a different British response if Sinn Fein had been in government in Dublin during the Troubles, and IRA operations in Northern Ireland were commanded from Collins Barracks.
Bearing in mind how many of the judgements people make are instinctive, I think the parallels that so exist help to explain why the instinctive Irish response is pro-Palestinian. But, as an English immigrant to Ireland whose paternal Grandma was a Jewish refugee from pre-war Vienna, I'm not all that comfortable with it.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
Anyone else get serious Beer Hall Putsch vibes from this ?
Trump salutes at his rally while they play an altered version of the national anthem featuring violent January 6 insurrectionists: “I call them the J6 hostages, not prisoners” https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1720191992578122193
Trump's cultist want to live in a fascist, or at the very least, a deeply authoritarian state.
They want this to be the last election.
They never want the other side to win again.
They think voting and democracy and debate and deliberation and compromise is a weakness and only strong states survive.
They want power at all costs.
Simple as that.
The clear and present danger is off the scale.
The dashboard lights are all flashing red.
Wake up America.
Wake up Europe.
How will we in Europe deal with Trump 2.0?
How will we deal with a civil war in the US?
NATO is on very borrowed time.
Putin need only hang on.
Saying all this is ridiculous hyperbole is just burrowing heads in sand.
Just wanted to say thanks for posting this far more succinctly than I would have done. The GOP are proto-fascist heading down the road of creating an effective one party authoritarian state. Then add in the religious loons who want to chain women as God's will, and they're heading towards Gilead.
It almost doesn't matter whether Biden is senile or whether the Dems are also open to a bit of corruption and gerrymandering - there's a difference between a bit of it and tear down the republic.
If America elects Trump, there won't be another free election.
The AI will probably ban democracy worldwide if it realises we elected Trump.
Because we are too stupid to be trusted. The "J6 Hostages" - people convicted in a series of trials for their part in the insurrection. With further trials going on for the ring leaders many of whom have already pleaded guilty.
Why is this making Trump more popular? Because roughly half of the population *wanted the coup to work*. It doesn't matter that they lost by 7m votes, they are right and indeed righteous, the other side are practically satanic.
As @rottenborough said - wake up. Half of America has had enough of democracy. Of tolerance. Of women's rights. When it is strange swarthy countries scrapping democracy and oppressing women the Americans usually object.
What will we do as Gilead is formed in front of our eyes?
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
Both force, and conciliation, were needed, to achieve peace.
That's the point that gets missed. Peace doesn't come about just because people sit around the table and achieve a consensus.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Blame Labour for the state of the country after 14 years of Tory rule, much as they've done up to now.
So no different to the Blair and Brown regimes still merrily blaming the Tories up to 2010 for the parlous state of the country.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Are we allowed to wear poppies to remember the British soldiers killed by the Stern gang and allies? Or are we allowed to forget about them?
Aside from a few old buffers wondering if then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin could be arrested as he visited London in the 1980s, we've moved on. As the British Empire retreated, it was common for countries to be led by those previously "jailed by the British" as Sir Humphrey told Jim Hacker.
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
It does seem as if we have moved on in some ways but not others.
I do like this Poppy pin circulating on twitter
Yes, I know it is an AI fake but it is a rather inspired one!
Trump cannot complain that Biden's Justice Dept pursues only Republicans.
Adams left Washington abruptly. A widening corruption scandal greeted him in NYC. A raid at the home of Adams’ lead fundraiser adds to a growing snowball of law enforcement actions targeting figures in and around his administration. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/02/adams-nyc-raid-00125172
Yes but Adams is not popular with either the NY state Democrat establishment where he has been having a running feud with Kathy Hochul or with Biden because he has been making a lot of critical noises of the Administration's handling of immigration and the impact in NYC. So you could make a case for saying it actually does show something.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Re yesterday's thread, which I refrained from posting on, I do think the media including pb.com are desperate to find anything which makes the next General Election appear less of a slam dunk than it currently appears.
I fear you are chasing shadows. These missing millions of wannabe tory voters are as much a fantasy as La Buse's treasure.
If they ever really existed they weren't true Conservative voters. They were 'Get Brexit Done' voters. That era has passed, along with their memories. They will not come back.
The national opinion polls are correct. Labour are on course for a significant win.
But fantasise away, if it keeps you occupied.
xx
I think it is always worth bearing in mind that the Tories have won an overall majority at only two general elections in the last 30 years. And of those the last one really was exceptional, and treating their 2019 voters as the "Tory base" is a very questionable thing to do.
Leaving aside the question of how 'exceptional' 2019 was (it wasn't, in fact it reflected trends that had been going on for well over a decade that were masked by the genuine outlier in 2017) let's take your logic a stage further. Labour have won three overall majorities in the last 30 years. Four in 50 years. Six in 70 years.
The problem is not the paucity of majorities - that's in many ways a good thing - the problem is the long periods in government each party is getting.
I think this is the fourth unstoppable trend I've had pointed out to me over the years. The previous three all broke and receded and next year this one will too.
2017 and 2019 were both outliers and in different directions but for exactly the same basic reasons. Really very interesting for historians of the future.
Are there real trends - yes. Mining seats becoming OAP seats has moved them right. London and the South coast have moved left. The comfortable no longer see Lab tax cuts as the biggest threat to their comfort. The 'White right' no longer see the Cons as their natural defenders. Scotland is a whole different picture. Lots of swirling currents that sometimes pull one way and sometimes the other.
One thing is certain - the number of party loyalists, donkey voters, has been in decline for decades and if anything the decline is speeding up. Parties can't rely on them keeping the faith and can't rely on them turning out. That is why big majorities will no longer guarantee a long term in government. That was true for Johnson and it would also be true for Starmer. If he has a majority of 100 then he will still have to earn those votes for the next time. That should keep Lab suppporters awake at night.
However, if Lab fails then don't assume those voters will switch to the Cons - especially if they are fielding tired old hacks from the Johnson/Truss/Sunak era. That is perhaps the real oppportunity for the likes of Ref UK, the LDs and the Greens. That should keep Con suppporters awake at night.
The big psychological question I have that I'm hoping a Labour government will answer is:
Have older voters become more Conservative or more conservative?
That is, we can all see an extraordinarily strong vote for the Tories among retired voters, but is that support ideological for the right-wing, or is it small-c conservative support for the incumbent government?
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
Trump cannot complain that Biden's Justice Dept pursues only Republicans.
Adams left Washington abruptly. A widening corruption scandal greeted him in NYC. A raid at the home of Adams’ lead fundraiser adds to a growing snowball of law enforcement actions targeting figures in and around his administration. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/02/adams-nyc-raid-00125172
Yes but Adams is not popular with either the NY state Democrat establishment where he has been having a running feud with Kathy Hochul or with Biden because he has been making a lot of critical noises of the Administration's handling of immigration and the impact in NYC. So you could make a case for saying it actually does show something.
Or you could just say that they are going after crooks.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
On an massive segue, can anybody recommend a charity that still takes cash/postal orders? It's coming up to Xmas and my internal helping-humans guilt index is beginning to twitch upwards. My usual go-tos (Tank Museum, British Legion, Red Cross, Shelter) are gradually moving to online payments which I refuse to do, so this will cause a problem in future. No political or political-adjacent charities, please.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
Build it better? Butter is best? Boys in Blue? Bit in Bold.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
@Cookie, "BiB" or "BIB" stands for "Bit In Bold". TSE bolded part of the quote and used the phrase "BIB" to indicate which bits of the text they were referring to.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I heard recently that the National Trust are looking for a suitable petrol station dating back to the mid 20th century to take over and maintain as they expect that within 20 or 30 years they will all have ceased to exist.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
Are we allowed to wear poppies to remember the British soldiers killed by the Stern gang and allies? Or are we allowed to forget about them?
Aside from a few old buffers wondering if then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin could be arrested as he visited London in the 1980s, we've moved on. As the British Empire retreated, it was common for countries to be led by those previously "jailed by the British" as Sir Humphrey told Jim Hacker.
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
It does seem as if we have moved on in some ways but not others.
I do like this Poppy pin circulating on twitter
Yes, I know it is an AI fake but it is a rather inspired one!
I wonder what the Express will have to say about them using Princess Diana as a model?
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
A sensible and reasonable response from @NickPalmer, as usual.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
Possibly but remember proposing (even tongue in cheek) that Israel be relocated is antisemitic, so presumably moving Palestine would be islamophobic or anti-arab or some such.
Are we allowed to wear poppies to remember the British soldiers killed by the Stern gang and allies? Or are we allowed to forget about them?
Aside from a few old buffers wondering if then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin could be arrested as he visited London in the 1980s, we've moved on. As the British Empire retreated, it was common for countries to be led by those previously "jailed by the British" as Sir Humphrey told Jim Hacker.
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
And white too, so anyone wearing one of each kind is going to get some unexpected hassle this year.
On an massive segue, can anybody recommend a charity that still takes cash/postal orders? It's coming up to Xmas and my internal helping-humans guilt index is beginning to twitch upwards. My usual go-tos (Tank Museum, British Legion, Red Cross, Shelter) are gradually moving to online payments which I refuse to do, so this will cause a problem in future. No political or political-adjacent charities, please.
MSF take postal orders and I think do good work. Friends who have worked for several humanitarian outfits normally pick them as one of the best.
If you care about cost-effectiveness, I think Against Malaria Foundation are great, and they take cheques.
Re yesterday's thread, which I refrained from posting on, I do think the media including pb.com are desperate to find anything which makes the next General Election appear less of a slam dunk than it currently appears.
I fear you are chasing shadows. These missing millions of wannabe tory voters are as much a fantasy as La Buse's treasure.
If they ever really existed they weren't true Conservative voters. They were 'Get Brexit Done' voters. That era has passed, along with their memories. They will not come back.
The national opinion polls are correct. Labour are on course for a significant win.
But fantasise away, if it keeps you occupied.
xx
I think it is always worth bearing in mind that the Tories have won an overall majority at only two general elections in the last 30 years. And of those the last one really was exceptional, and treating their 2019 voters as the "Tory base" is a very questionable thing to do.
Leaving aside the question of how 'exceptional' 2019 was (it wasn't, in fact it reflected trends that had been going on for well over a decade that were masked by the genuine outlier in 2017) let's take your logic a stage further. Labour have won three overall majorities in the last 30 years. Four in 50 years. Six in 70 years.
The problem is not the paucity of majorities - that's in many ways a good thing - the problem is the long periods in government each party is getting.
I think this is the fourth unstoppable trend I've had pointed out to me over the years. The previous three all broke and receded and next year this one will too.
2017 and 2019 were both outliers and in different directions but for exactly the same basic reasons. Really very interesting for historians of the future.
Are there real trends - yes. Mining seats becoming OAP seats has moved them right. London and the South coast have moved left. The comfortable no longer see Lab tax cuts as the biggest threat to their comfort. The 'White right' no longer see the Cons as their natural defenders. Scotland is a whole different picture. Lots of swirling currents that sometimes pull one way and sometimes the other.
One thing is certain - the number of party loyalists, donkey voters, has been in decline for decades and if anything the decline is speeding up. Parties can't rely on them keeping the faith and can't rely on them turning out. That is why big majorities will no longer guarantee a long term in government. That was true for Johnson and it would also be true for Starmer. If he has a majority of 100 then he will still have to earn those votes for the next time. That should keep Lab suppporters awake at night.
However, if Lab fails then don't assume those voters will switch to the Cons - especially if they are fielding tired old hacks from the Johnson/Truss/Sunak era. That is perhaps the real oppportunity for the likes of Ref UK, the LDs and the Greens. That should keep Con suppporters awake at night.
The big psychological question I have that I'm hoping a Labour government will answer is:
Have older voters become more Conservative or more conservative?
That is, we can all see an extraordinarily strong vote for the Tories among retired voters, but is that support ideological for the right-wing, or is it small-c conservative support for the incumbent government?
I've argued for years that British Conservatism has nothing to do with any ideology, instead functioning as delegates for the interests of the upper- and upper-middle classes. Any ideology it claims to represent at a given moment is simply retconned plumage worn to add spurious legitimacy to justify the positions it has already decided to take.
Consequently the answer to your question is "old people vote Conservative because they feel it best represents their interests".
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
Last month, less than 48 hours after Hamas militants slaughtered men, women and children in Israel, and as references to “pogroms” and “massacres” were resurfacing in the headlines, I found myself taking part in a long-planned seminar at the Auschwitz Memorial. It was a coincidence we were there at that time, and equally coincidental that among those taking part were Jewish journalists and a Palestinian camera operator born in Israel.
He – a Christian from Haifa – was repeatedly asked how he felt about what was happening in his homeland. He was appalled by the Hamas massacre and despairing that Israel would exact a far heavier price on the Palestinian population of Gaza. “Why do I have to take sides?” he asked. “Why can’t I be horrified by the actions of both sides?”
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
I have not taken sides. If you had read my comments on this you would know this.
I have said that Netanyahu is the worst possible leader for Israel, that I have grave reservations about the wisdom of an invasion of Gaza, that what is happening now on the West Bank is awful and a barrier to peace, that an offer of a 2-state solution should be made now, that civilians should be allowed to leave Gaza so as to be safe and so on.
What I noticed is that while the bodies were still warm, people were rushing to condemn Israel, to blame the victims, to celebrate the massacre. What I see is a lot of bad faith criticism of Israel, a lot of lectures about what they must not do but silence about how they should defend themselves. And it makes me wonder whether that silence is because they don't want Israel to defend itself at all.
I can do nothing about what happens in Israel or Gaza. I can do something here. I have noticed a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice reappearing. The callousness and cruelty of those tearing down or defacing photos of hostages disgusts me. I spoke to my Jewish neighbour to find out if her family was OK and she was in tears, grateful that I had been kind to her.
And that makes me very angry indeed: Jews here - our neighbours, our fellow Britons - should not have to feel gratitude for basic human decency. And yet they do because they cannot take it for granted. Because sadistic slaughter is described as "inspiring" or as "tweaking the big guy's nose". It is disgusting. Those who react like that are contemptible. So I am on the side of reaching out to Jews here to make them feel that, regardless of what is happening in the Middle East, someone is on their side here.
That is why I posted this petition ( https://chng.it/yTP5RhgHP6 ) despite the sneering of one poster on here. I know from the reaction of Jews who have seen it that they appreciate it. It is the tiniest of gestures but it is something I can do.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
So you wouldn't suggest a cage fight?
On the bright side, Rishi would have a better chance of escaping though the gaps between the bars.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
Are we allowed to wear poppies to remember the British soldiers killed by the Stern gang and allies? Or are we allowed to forget about them?
Aside from a few old buffers wondering if then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin could be arrested as he visited London in the 1980s, we've moved on. As the British Empire retreated, it was common for countries to be led by those previously "jailed by the British" as Sir Humphrey told Jim Hacker.
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
It does seem as if we have moved on in some ways but not others.
I do like this Poppy pin circulating on twitter
Yes, I know it is an AI fake but it is a rather inspired one!
There are several problems with it.
1) It appears to be Princess Diana and plays into the conspiracy theories that she was murdered because she was pregnant with a Muslim man's baby and/or was going to start campaigning for the Palestinians.
2) Free Palestine. Sounds nice. Until you actually ask what does it mean? We have people calling for it every day who nonetheless can't answer the question of what this means for Israel or its Jewish population.
3) Yet another attempt to sanctify the NHS as some kind of holy institution
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
He is right, at least for the western world. US24 would be the most important election in our lifetimes but is overshadowed by climate change, which is overshadowed by the shift to authoritarianism and state centralised power driven by technology, which in turn is then overshadowed by AI taking us beyond our own comprehension and control.
A Tory working majority after the next General Election would seem to be unlikely, but it is perhaps worth considering exactly what such a government would do,
Indeed it is. That's why for the first time in about 45 years I am not voting for them.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
Max Hastings' remark about head boys not making good leaders was spot on in reference to Sunak.
They are conditioned to be suckups to power. Jarring, even so, to see that with Musk.
Comments
An interesting little 10 minute video visiting all 50 of the tram stops on the Nottingham Tram Network.
Even the Robin Hood Line Light Rail also gets a walk-on part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmWQTuveLSo
And a driver's eye view of the longer of the two lines, which shows how it has been integrated into the city quite well in old corridors and I think corridors reserved long ago - surprisingly little of it is on the road carriageway. Run this one at double speed.
https://youtu.be/WMCKPk9NXyc
The gov in Jersey are meeting UK gov early next year to try and increase the time period to allow trips of a few days on ID cards.
It’s obviously a lot easier to police in a small island but hopefully it is a good testing ground so that it can be rolled out more widely for the UK and EU in the near future.
Similar mythologising of an illegal farce.
https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1720191992578122193
Trump salutes at his rally while they play an altered version of the national anthem featuring violent January 6 insurrectionists: “I call them the J6 hostages, not prisoners”
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
Now, it may not be driving all of them. If fifty thousand people turn up at a protest there are probably fifty thousand reasons for them to do so.
But to think it isn't a big part is simply idiotic. Just as (for example) to try and excuse McDonald's comments on the basis of, 'that wasn't what he meant' are idiotic.
And to forget how evil Hamas are, is idiotic.
The fact that the inevitable Israeli overreaction of carpet bombing Gaza was also clearly part of their plan seems to be rather overlooked by their apologists, who in any case are as we see are trying to forget what kicked this off.
For Palestine to be free - in any sense and in any location - Hamas does have to be got rid of.
That also means getting rid of their useful idiots in Israel, like Netanyahu, who have propped them up for their own reasons. And then starting again on both sides.
My wife said that she couldn't help but see the parallel between what is happening in Gaza now as equivalent to the British carpet-bombing Dublin after an IRA terrorist attack during the Troubles. I think this analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, and it's lead to some difficult discussions, but you can see some common elements - a militarily more powerful neighbour against whom you are essentially defenceless, who is occupying land you believe belongs to you, and who allows your people in the occupied territories to be treated as second-class citizens.
I think it's generally a positive thing that Ireland feels comfortable enough to state its case, even though I disagree with it, rather than feeling that it has to toe the line from the US or the EU. I guess that's a difference between the relationships democracies have with each other and totalitarian regimes.
Obviously that will have some consequence for Ireland. It can't help but damage relationships at the margins, but I wouldn't have thought the damage would be all that significant if only because Ireland isn't that significant. Which does make the decision by political leaders in office to be so outspoken about it all the more curious. Not sure what good the Taoiseach thinks will come of providing a live commentary on whether the Israeli military response is proportionate or revengeful. They could have stayed away from that and concentrated on the humanitarian and ceasefire aspects.
I think over time both sides will find “special circumstances” to bend rules where there is no real mortal peril to either side by certain barriers being left up after the initial “it’s war” posturing at the time and for a period after.
If America does go fascist/Gilead I am not sure we will retain NATO.
Fix
Bayonets
Would be great to see.
Then again on horseguards the marchers would be just as much at risk from a stray cutlass and some horseshit.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/most-british-people-hold-positive-view-of-immigration-survey-reveals/ar-AA1jiIsv?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=c8039fce49e246bc9216acf4a026741d&ei=14
Politicians being politicians, eh !!
This was because the SDLP was the core of a non-violent, social democratic response to the issues that lead to the Troubles. Throughout, they were supported in this, and treated as the leadership of the Catholic community in NI, by the various Irish governments.
2017 and 2019 were both outliers and in different directions but for exactly the same basic reasons. Really very interesting for historians of the future.
Are there real trends - yes. Mining seats becoming OAP seats has moved them right. London and the South coast have moved left. The comfortable no longer see Lab tax cuts as the biggest threat to their comfort. The 'White right' no longer see the Cons as their natural defenders. Scotland is a whole different picture. Lots of swirling currents that sometimes pull one way and sometimes the other.
One thing is certain - the number of party loyalists, donkey voters, has been in decline for decades and if anything the decline is speeding up. Parties can't rely on them keeping the faith and can't rely on them turning out. That is why big majorities will no longer guarantee a long term in government. That was true for Johnson and it would also be true for Starmer. If he has a majority of 100 then he will still have to earn those votes for the next time. That should keep Lab suppporters awake at night.
However, if Lab fails then don't assume those voters will switch to the Cons - especially if they are fielding tired old hacks from the Johnson/Truss/Sunak era. That is perhaps the real oppportunity for the likes of Ref UK, the LDs and the Greens. That should keep Con suppporters awake at night.
The extent we go not to upset 'communities' has long since stopped surprising me (I'm looking at YOU, the FA, only because you happen to be nearest).
And there's always ourselves. It's not impossible that autocratic governments in growing military powers like Turkey or Poland could present problems within the next decade or do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
What’s not to love?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-67289519
But I take your point about drones. There is no guarantee that a new fleet of tanks will be needed or useful. I think we are at a similar point to the battle of Hampton Roads in the American civil war when an armoured ship showed that all the wooden ships in the mighty Royal navy were now redundant.
Royal Horse Artillery could go full Napoleon and load grapeshot however. Dark ending to the two minutes.
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=362525
There are European countries with similar demographic incentives to do so.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/03/watford-gap-service-station-jimi-hendrix-stones-demolished/
ETA ironically poppies are coloured red, green and black, not unlike Palestinian flags.
The Merrimack was inspired by the floating batteries of the Crimean war - which were rather more sea worthy. Despite the name, the floating batteries were self propelled warships, though often assisted with a tow when on long voyages.
Turrets designed by Cole’s had been trialed on HMS Trusty - one of the floating batteries.
The turret ships HMS Royal Sovereign and HMS Prince Albert were ordered before the battle of Hampton Roads.
Coles and Ericsson had a long argument about who was first with turrets. Only ended by Cole’s death on the turret ship he designed - HMS Captain…
Bearing in mind how many of the judgements people make are instinctive, I think the parallels that so exist help to explain why the instinctive Irish response is pro-Palestinian. But, as an English immigrant to Ireland whose paternal Grandma was a Jewish refugee from pre-war Vienna, I'm not all that comfortable with it.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified.
2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal.
3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
That's the point that gets missed. Peace doesn't come about just because people sit around the table and achieve a consensus.
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
A whiff of grapeshot?
I do like this Poppy pin circulating on twitter
Yes, I know it is an AI fake but it is a rather inspired one!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
Have older voters become more Conservative or more conservative?
That is, we can all see an extraordinarily strong vote for the Tories among retired voters, but is that support ideological for the right-wing, or is it small-c conservative support for the incumbent government?
Very much.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I also liked the subtle dissing of Sir Cliff
https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1720239013297049962
Interesting Biden line from today:
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
If you care about cost-effectiveness, I think Against Malaria Foundation are great, and they take cheques.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://msf.org.uk/sites/default/files/MSF128%20One%20off%20donation%20Form_Cold_Online_AW.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwixw62N0aeCAxWMglwKHbxcALcQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0KJhdf2YgiGhQJ3kQupaqz
Consequently the answer to your question is "old people vote Conservative because they feel it best represents their interests".
Last month, less than 48 hours after Hamas militants slaughtered men, women and children in Israel, and as references to “pogroms” and “massacres” were resurfacing in the headlines, I found myself taking part in a long-planned seminar at the Auschwitz Memorial. It was a coincidence we were there at that time, and equally coincidental that among those taking part were Jewish journalists and a Palestinian camera operator born in Israel.
He – a Christian from Haifa – was repeatedly asked how he felt about what was happening in his homeland. He was appalled by the Hamas massacre and despairing that Israel would exact a far heavier price on the Palestinian population of Gaza. “Why do I have to take sides?” he asked. “Why can’t I be horrified by the actions of both sides?”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/03/the-perpetrators-were-people-like-us-the-burden-of-history-at-auschwitz
I have said that Netanyahu is the worst possible leader for Israel, that I have grave reservations about the wisdom of an invasion of Gaza, that what is happening now on the West Bank is awful and a barrier to peace, that an offer of a 2-state solution should be made now, that civilians should be allowed to leave Gaza so as to be safe and so on.
What I noticed is that while the bodies were still warm, people were rushing to condemn Israel, to blame the victims, to celebrate the massacre. What I see is a lot of bad faith criticism of Israel, a lot of lectures about what they must not do but silence about how they should defend themselves. And it makes me wonder whether that silence is because they don't want Israel to defend itself at all.
I can do nothing about what happens in Israel or Gaza. I can do something here. I have noticed a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice reappearing. The callousness and cruelty of those tearing down or defacing photos of hostages disgusts me. I spoke to my Jewish neighbour to find out if her family was OK and she was in tears, grateful that I had been kind to her.
And that makes me very angry indeed: Jews here - our neighbours, our fellow Britons - should not have to feel gratitude for basic human decency. And yet they do because they cannot take it for granted. Because sadistic slaughter is described as "inspiring" or as "tweaking the big guy's nose". It is disgusting. Those who react like that are contemptible. So I am on the side of reaching out to Jews here to make them feel that, regardless of what is happening in the Middle East, someone is on their side here.
That is why I posted this petition ( https://chng.it/yTP5RhgHP6 ) despite the sneering of one poster on here. I know from the reaction of Jews who have seen it that they appreciate it. It is the tiniest of gestures but it is something I can do.
BRACE
1) It appears to be Princess Diana and plays into the conspiracy theories that she was murdered because she was pregnant with a Muslim man's baby and/or was going to start campaigning for the Palestinians.
2) Free Palestine. Sounds nice. Until you actually ask what does it mean? We have people calling for it every day who nonetheless can't answer the question of what this means for Israel or its Jewish population.
3) Yet another attempt to sanctify the NHS as some kind of holy institution
They are conditioned to be suckups to power.
Jarring, even so, to see that with Musk.