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Ireland’s gamble – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,688

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    In the last few days Chile, Colombia, Bolivia, Jordan and Bahrain have all recalled their Ambassadors from Israel.
    “Recalling your ambassador” is about as feeble as it gets

    It’s not going to have the Israelis trembling in the Knesset

    “OMFG that guy from La Paz has gone home!”

    “Who? From where?”
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,023
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    I'm pretty sure more civilians have been killed than in equivalent offensives in Ukraine, because as soon as Russia invaded most civilians fled the warzone for areas further West, or (as in Kherson) were immediately under Russian occupation before anyone knew what was happening. As in WW1 Ukraine and Russia are now fighting over wasteland abandoned by most humans. The only civilian deaths are of those caught by Russia's deep missile and drone strikes.

    The tragic difference is that Gazans are trapped. There is nowhere to go.
    No one really knows the numbers of civilian casualties in Ukraine.
    Mariupol, for example.
    Lots more civilians in Gaza will die quicker compared to Ukraine for this reason :

    Pop densities
    8000/sq km Gaza, 63/sq km Ukraine.

    Regardless of Israeli or Palestinian intent, the Hamas infrastructure is obviously going to be closer to civilians than Ukraine's where there's far more room.
  • Options
    Treasury to pay Bank of England £170bn to cover QE losses

    The Bank of England has warned of losses from the sale of government bonds as it unwinds its quantitative easing programme because rising interest rates have pushed down the value of the debt

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/treasury-to-pay-bank-of-england-170bn-to-cover-qe-losses-9n83vbkrz (£££)

  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
    "10 lives for every Israeli!" :lol:
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,369
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Surely little chance that you’d be cowering, out on the streets trying to take out a Merkava with a Molly cocktail, no?
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    BIB, I’m sold.

    Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.

    Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.

    The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.

    Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.

    Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.

    The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.

    Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.

    Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.

    The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.

    Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.

    However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.

    Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/03/watford-gap-service-station-jimi-hendrix-stones-demolished/

    1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.

    Anyway:

    2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."

    3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").

    *Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.

    image is what watford Gap looks like.

    It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..

    What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
    I once ran into Jarvis Cocker in the gents toilet at Watford Gap services. Somehow it felt like the right kind of place for that to happen.
    Why were you running ?
    "When you've got to go, you've got to go!"
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,150

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).
    Has an official rate of exchange between Israeli lives and Palestinian lives been published yet? I keep wondering what it is.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,131

    "...I once ran into Jarvis Cocker in the gents toilet at Watford Gap services. Somehow it felt like the right kind of place for that to happen..."

    Nah, the lyrics are actually "She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge. She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College." A lot of people get it wrong... :)
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,688

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Surely little chance that you’d be cowering, out on the streets trying to take out a Merkava with a Molly cocktail?
    We’re still waiting for you and @malcolmg to march on Westminster so as to overthrow your “colonial overlords”
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
    I'm sorry but bombing a refugee camp, even if there were Hamas fighters there (unproven) is not proportional and it's doubtful if it's legal. It's certainly bloody stupid when images from the attack will be all over the world's media within minutes.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
    In the real world, Hamas doesn't really have a choice. Their forces are vastly technically inferior to those of Israel, so the only way they can put up any sort of resistance is by mixing with civilians. Otherwise they would simply be annihilated.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,542
    Both Musk and Bezos have said they were inspired by Robert Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sold_the_Moon

    There are worse sources of inspiration.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,106
    Definition of madness: developing technologies that will make life worse for most people.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,381
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Foss said:

    Sean_F said:

    If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.

    Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.

    And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
    Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”

    Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
    Banks' Culture novels:

    "Since the majority of its biological population can have almost anything they want without the need to work, there is little need for laws or enforcement, and the culture is described by Banks as space socialism."

    It seems just like the post-Indy Scotland then....
    Certainly in terms of the lack of work. Maybe not so much in terms of having what we want.
    How shit must the rUK be?

    'Scotland's unemployment rate has increased slightly to 3.2%, according to new figures.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that an estimated 89,000 Scots adults were unemployed between March and May, up from 85,000 in the previous three months.

    Scotland's unemployment rate is below the UK-wide rate, which was 4% in the latest period.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66162215
    April to June in the North East it went from 3.5% to 5.2%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/ycnc/lms
    Levelling Up
  • Options

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    Palestinians are the only people world-wide who have inherited refugee status, even after many decades. Presumably that has something to do with whether the host states want to accept them and the descendants permanently.

    As an aside, that anomaly of inherited status is one of the barriers to a wider settlement.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,688
    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?
  • Options
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    They got egged on into by the bigger boys?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Their leadership all live in Qatar and wanted something decent on the Telly ?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
    In the real world, Hamas doesn't really have a choice. Their forces are vastly technically inferior to those of Israel, so the only way they can put up any sort of resistance is by mixing with civilians. Otherwise they would simply be annihilated.
    That’s bullshit

    You can fight a guerilla war / insurgency without putting arms caches in hospitals

    Hamas are cynically using civilians to take advantage of western media’s credulousness
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,187
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    In the last few days Chile, Colombia, Bolivia, Jordan and Bahrain have all recalled their Ambassadors from Israel.
    “Recalling your ambassador” is about as feeble as it gets

    It’s not going to have the Israelis trembling in the Knesset

    “OMFG that guy from La Paz has gone home!”

    “Who? From where?”
    Lot of big hitters there, bet they are raging
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,627

    kinabalu said:

    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    BIB, I’m sold.

    Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.

    Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.

    The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.

    Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.

    Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.

    The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.

    Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.

    Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.

    The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.

    Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.

    However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.

    Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/03/watford-gap-service-station-jimi-hendrix-stones-demolished/

    1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.

    Anyway:

    2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."

    3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").

    *Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.

    image is what watford Gap looks like.

    It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
    It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
    Tebay
    Or not Tebay, that is the question.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,195

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Their leadership all live in Qatar and wanted something decent on the Telly ?
    None of them are willing to die without first visiting the Tebay service station.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).

    Human shields that Hamas stick in the way that get caught in the crossfire are Hamas's fault. If Hamas builds its infrastructure in civilian areas, then civilians get caught in the crossfire, that too is Hamas's fault.

    Israel is remaining the responsible party trying to be proportional.
    In the real world, Hamas doesn't really have a choice. Their forces are vastly technically inferior to those of Israel, so the only way they can put up any sort of resistance is by mixing with civilians. Otherwise they would simply be annihilated.
    That’s bullshit

    You can fight a guerilla war / insurgency without putting arms caches in hospitals

    Hamas are cynically using civilians to take advantage of western media’s credulousness
    Given the high population density of Gaza and the close surveillance of Israel, it would be virtually impossible to separate the infrastructure for a guerrilla war from the civilian infrastructure and keep it hidden.
  • Options
    NickyBreakspearNickyBreakspear Posts: 698
    edited November 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    "FindOutNowUK

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    LDM: 10% (-2)
    RFM: 8% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (+1)
    SNP: 4% (=)

    Techne UK

    LAB: 46% (-)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    REF: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)

    YouGov

    Lab 44%
    Con 23%
    LD 9%
    Green 9%
    Reform 9%"

    Leads 22, 20, 21.
    Looking at the YouGov underlying data for 2019 voters and comparing with their 5 January poll the major movement for Conservative 2019 voters is an increase in the Reform vote (5%) with fewer Conservatives staying put. Other non conservatives (including Labour, LibDems, don't know, not voting etc.) are broadly the same.

    A similar swing from Labout 2019 voters to Green.

    For the LibDem 2019, there is a shift from Labour voting (in Jan 2023) to LibDem (now) of about 10%.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Their leadership all live in Qatar and wanted something decent on the Telly ?
    None of them are willing to die without first visiting the Tebay service station.
    "I would liked to have seen Montana Tebay..."
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,429
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza

    Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
    And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.

    But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
    Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
    Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.

    That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
    That's sophistry.
    While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
    Yes, it does.

    So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
    And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
    Indeed, but I've not seen anything to suggest Israel is not sticking to the rules of proportionality (which remember does not mean a 1:1 casualty rate).
    Has an official rate of exchange between Israeli lives and Palestinian lives been published yet? I keep wondering what it is.
    20 to 1 is the average exchange rate in recent years.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    Simples. Because Israel LET them.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,195
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,944

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    Palestinians are the only people world-wide who have inherited refugee status, even after many decades. Presumably that has something to do with whether the host states want to accept them and the descendants permanently.

    As an aside, that anomaly of inherited status is one of the barriers to a wider settlement.
    However only a minority of Palestinians have recognised refugee status, most do not. I know this from my involvement with a medical charity providing services to West Bank and Gaza, as there were funding for treatments of recognised refugees, while most had to self fund, or rely on charities.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,187
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Their leadership all live in Qatar and wanted something decent on the Telly ?
    None of them are willing to die without first visiting the Tebay service station.
    Not surprised they want one of those steak pies before they go
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,429
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Perhaps the psychopathic orgy of violence was its own reward. Perhaps there was no cold-eyed gaming out of the aftermath. Similarly Israel now. To what extent are they acting rationally to achieve a 'war aim' as opposed to wreaking vengeance? I think it's mainly the latter.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,187
    Leon said:



    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Surely little chance that you’d be cowering, out on the streets trying to take out a Merkava with a Molly cocktail?
    We’re still waiting for you and @malcolmg to march on Westminster so as to overthrow your “colonial overlords”
    Won't catch me in that dump @Leon
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,481
    edited November 2023
    Humza Yousaf's family are out. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67307843

    For all my political issues with him and his party I am genuinely happy for him and his wife.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Various possibilities. I wouldn't overlook the Iran-Russia axis though.

    What Russia needs most right now is to stop Western, and particularly American aid to Ukraine. Is it a coincidence that the raid in Israel came only days after the new US House Speaker was elected - someone who's previously been anti-Ukraine aid (but pro-Israel)? In the inability of engaging directly in the US political debate, what better than providing a distraction with something that hits at American (and Republican) emotions?

    What does Iran get out of that? Well, bashing Israel for one, obviously; also more sales of military kit to Russia. But perhaps that explains why Hezbollah *haven't* joined the fight, despite the fact that Iran has even more influence there than over Hamas - they don't want an Israeli (or American) military response while still building their nuclear capacity. They can plausibly deny being behind it with a "see, if it was us then Hezbollah would have been involved too". Iran would also like to stop the rapprochment between Israel and Saudi (and other Arab states), and a Gaza-Israel war is handy to that end too (though not as effective so far as might have been anticipated).

    What's in it for Hamas? Killing Jews. They're a genocidal terrorist organisation who are happy to sacrifice their people in pursuit of ethnic cleansing.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,973

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    Palestinians are the only people world-wide who have inherited refugee status, even after many decades. Presumably that has something to do with whether the host states want to accept them and the descendants permanently.

    As an aside, that anomaly of inherited status is one of the barriers to a wider settlement.
    There is debate around the contention that the Palestinians are the only people with inherited refugee status. That position has been advanced by pro-Israeli sources. Pro-Palestinian sources point to other non-Palestinian examples. https://www.unhcr.org/us/media/handbook-procedures-and-criteria-determining-refugee-status-under-1951-convention-and-1967 states, “If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition his dependents are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity.” That supports inherited refugee status applying broadly.

    What is clear is that the scale of inherited refugee status among Palestinians is unlike other examples. Palestinian refugees have been used by Palestinian authorities and by their host countries as pawns, to keep the pressure up on Israel.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,381
    Up
    rcs1000 said:
    Lovely stuff. Can’t fault the sentiment.

    Bono has a great collection of hatchbacks.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,381
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    Their leadership all live in Qatar and wanted something decent on the Telly ?
    None of them are willing to die without first visiting the Tebay service station.
    Not surprised they want one of those steak pies before they go
    Steak pies, like bacon and black pudding, are why I could never go,vegan or veggie.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,481
    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    I suspect that it was delusion and a desperate desire for revenge. They probably believed that the Arab world simply had to have their example to rise up and destroy Israel once and for all.
  • Options
    On Keir’s big planning speech…

    I find myself agreeing with pretty much all he said (though I find it utterly fascinating to hear a Labour leader decry planning applications being refused because of the environmental impact). It is absolutely true the planning system is too labyrinthine, complex and bureaucratic.

    BUT, and there is a but here:

    Is Starmer ready for the absolute can of worms he’ll open if he tries to enact meaningful reform in this area? Not only will he have the NIMBYs up in arms (and that pressure will be intense) but has anyone had any thought about how removing planning safeguards might actually lead to a Human Rights Act challenge?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,688
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    I suspect that it was delusion and a desperate desire for revenge. They probably believed that the Arab world simply had to have their example to rise up and destroy Israel once and for all.
    Yes possibly. It may go down as one of the worst miscalculations in the Middle East since the Iraq war, from the perspective of Hamas

    Iran and Russia however can maybe point to a roiled, distracted and divided west as a definite benefit
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,175
    rcs1000 said:
    My sister and I refer to him as 'Bonio', after the dog biscuit.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,481
    Why? I seem to recall that Hippos are the most dangerous animals in Africa.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,728

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
    The Palestinians have shown they’re upset at how they are treated by the other nations in the region repeatedly.

    In part, this reaction has made them less welcome in those nations, in a vicious circle.
  • Options

    Andy_JS said:

    "FindOutNowUK

    LAB: 45% (+1)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    LDM: 10% (-2)
    RFM: 8% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (+1)
    SNP: 4% (=)

    Techne UK

    LAB: 46% (-)
    CON: 26% (+1)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    REF: 6% (-1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)

    YouGov

    Lab 44%
    Con 23%
    LD 9%
    Green 9%
    Reform 9%"

    Leads 22, 20, 21.
    Massive leads can be blown - see SLab 2011 or Con 2017 - but the consistency and scale of this polling (backed up by by-election results) does imply very strongly that Labour is on for a bloody big majority.
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771

    On Keir’s big planning speech…

    I find myself agreeing with pretty much all he said (though I find it utterly fascinating to hear a Labour leader decry planning applications being refused because of the environmental impact). It is absolutely true the planning system is too labyrinthine, complex and bureaucratic.

    BUT, and there is a but here:

    Is Starmer ready for the absolute can of worms he’ll open if he tries to enact meaningful reform in this area? Not only will he have the NIMBYs up in arms (and that pressure will be intense) but has anyone had any thought about how removing planning safeguards might actually lead to a Human Rights Act challenge?

    My thoughts exactly. Is he ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,549
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah

    If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel

    Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.

    Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.

    On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
    Palestinians are the only people world-wide who have inherited refugee status, even after many decades. Presumably that has something to do with whether the host states want to accept them and the descendants permanently.

    As an aside, that anomaly of inherited status is one of the barriers to a wider settlement.
    There is debate around the contention that the Palestinians are the only people with inherited refugee status. That position has been advanced by pro-Israeli sources. Pro-Palestinian sources point to other non-Palestinian examples. https://www.unhcr.org/us/media/handbook-procedures-and-criteria-determining-refugee-status-under-1951-convention-and-1967 states, “If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition his dependents are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity.” That supports inherited refugee status applying broadly.

    What is clear is that the scale of inherited refugee status among Palestinians is unlike other examples. Palestinian refugees have been used by Palestinian authorities and by their host countries as pawns, to keep the pressure up on Israel.
    I think the point is that most refugees, if it doesn't become safe for them to return within a few years, integrate into their country of refuge and subsequent generations don't think of themselves as refugees.

    My grandma was a refugee from pre-War Vienna and, while it's an important part of the family history, none of her descendants identify as refugees. We all think of ourselves as British/English, though we might pay a bit more attention when Austria play Hungary in the football. (As an aside, the first Austria vs Hungary matches were before WWI, showing that the setup in Britain of having multiple national teams within one country hasn't always been as anomalous as it now looks)
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,843

    On Keir’s big planning speech…

    I find myself agreeing with pretty much all he said (though I find it utterly fascinating to hear a Labour leader decry planning applications being refused because of the environmental impact). It is absolutely true the planning system is too labyrinthine, complex and bureaucratic.

    BUT, and there is a but here:

    Is Starmer ready for the absolute can of worms he’ll open if he tries to enact meaningful reform in this area? Not only will he have the NIMBYs up in arms (and that pressure will be intense) but has anyone had any thought about how removing planning safeguards might actually lead to a Human Rights Act challenge?

    My thoughts exactly. Is he ready to take on what must be a large element of his natural supporters. Those PBers laughing at Sunak tarmaccing over southern England havent realised Starmer wants to do it too.

    Likewise it is easy to announce the concept of housing and infrastructure. But where is he going to put them ? If he knows he will be asked to declare it cue the Nimbys and if he doesnt he wont be doing much in his term of office as it will take years to get stuff up and moving.
    I think he'll evolve it in teh short term - there are plenty of not very controversial things to do.
  • Options
    timpletimple Posts: 119
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    With Hezbollah bottling it, we are left with the mystery of why Hamas did October 7

    The result was bound to be an overwhelming Israel strike back. Levelling Gaza and destroying Hamas

    This would’ve made sense if Hamas had some grander plan to involve the wider Middle East. But if that was gonna happen it would have happened by now. And Hezbollah would have been first

    So what now? Tens of thousands will die and Gaza will be razed and Hamas will gain…. What?

    Was it all some terrible miscalculation? Was it a military raid that got out of hand?

    I suspect that it was delusion and a desperate desire for revenge. They probably believed that the Arab world simply had to have their example to rise up and destroy Israel once and for all.
    Yes possibly. It may go down as one of the worst miscalculations in the Middle East since the Iraq war, from the perspective of Hamas

    Iran and Russia however can maybe point to a roiled, distracted and divided west as a definite benefit
    Desperate people do desperate things. Why they are desperate and whose fault it is they are desperate is the raging global debate.
This discussion has been closed.