Good header @Alanbrooke Ireland does indeed seem to have come to a settled view on this.
Ironically a generation or two ago Ireland might have seen in Israel parallels with its own past as a small country fighting to win independence against larger neighbours. That has changed hugely.
It doesn't matter much however many march in Dublin, London or Dacca or who they support. The only country Isael listens to is the USA, and the only places with influence on Hamas are in the neighbouring countries.
I agree with that. What has me scratching my head is what Ireland hopes to gain from its stance. Usually Ireland sits at the back of the class and says little ( see Ukraine ) but on this one its at the front. I cant really see what the country is seeking to gain versus the downside if it goes wrong.
I don't think Ireland's stance is a sophisticated political calculation of upside versus downside. It is equivalent to joining a pro Palestinian protest march. There's nothing to gain except expressing a strongly held moral view that needs expression. Just keeping quiet would feel wrong.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
I think he's right, and possibly late: the impetus was the GFC, demography, multipolar world, deglobalisation of supply, Twitter and the availability of internet phones. We spent 2010-2020 working out the bugs and things are beginning to settle, with the elections between 2020 and 2030 being dictated by this new consensus: the total loss of privacy, massive government oversight, pensionerism, globalisation of profit, a morlock-eloi cleavage, policy decided by emotion. very poor government argumentation, in short a rather oppressive, spasmodic and unpleasant time.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
He is right, at least for the western world. US24 would be the most important election in our lifetimes but is overshadowed by climate change, which is overshadowed by the shift to authoritarianism and state centralised power driven by technology, which in turn is then overshadowed by AI taking us beyond our own comprehension and control.
Much as we take the piss out of Leon, he isn't always wrong either. Biden usually adopts a somewhat less hyperbolic turn of phrase, so this was notable.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
What is Israel's alternative?
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Your cousin's son goes to a Jewish school? Does that mean you have an ultra orthodox Jewish cousin? That's interesting particularly if she married out as you suggest by saying their father is Irish and I'm presuming not Jewish?
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
He is right, at least for the western world. US24 would be the most important election in our lifetimes but is overshadowed by climate change, which is overshadowed by the shift to authoritarianism and state centralised power driven by technology, which in turn is then overshadowed by AI taking us beyond our own comprehension and control.
He's wrong about how often it happens - major global change is probably more like once every 30 years on average, the last one being 1989-91 - but he's right about this being a pivot point.
But it's probably an even bigger pivot point than 1989-91 was, given that geopolitical change is occurring at the same time as major industrial change (the internet came slightly later in the last one, though not by much), and climate change is really becoming apparent now too.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
He is right, at least for the western world. US24 would be the most important election in our lifetimes but is overshadowed by climate change, which is overshadowed by the shift to authoritarianism and state centralised power driven by technology, which in turn is then overshadowed by AI taking us beyond our own comprehension and control.
Much as we take the piss out of Leon, he isn't always wrong either. Biden usually adopts a somewhat less hyperbolic turn of phrase, so this was notable.
I agree with him on AI. It is bonkers that we are not trying to do this as slowly as possible, but game theory means if we don't then China will and vice versa so we are doomed to behave like lemmings.
Last month, less than 48 hours after Hamas militants slaughtered men, women and children in Israel, and as references to “pogroms” and “massacres” were resurfacing in the headlines, I found myself taking part in a long-planned seminar at the Auschwitz Memorial. It was a coincidence we were there at that time, and equally coincidental that among those taking part were Jewish journalists and a Palestinian camera operator born in Israel.
He – a Christian from Haifa – was repeatedly asked how he felt about what was happening in his homeland. He was appalled by the Hamas massacre and despairing that Israel would exact a far heavier price on the Palestinian population of Gaza. “Why do I have to take sides?” he asked. “Why can’t I be horrified by the actions of both sides?”
Most people are like this bloke. Most people support good people on all sides, and oppose bad people on all sides. But whereas in most cases it is possible on this basis to formulate a policy from whatever is the situation X as of today, in this particular case everyone struggles to put into a policy with any substance what any of the powerful actors should do, within the realm of non-unicorn and non-magic possibilities.
So, in WWII there were of course good Germans, but as a policy the state as a whole, including the good ones, had to be comprehensively defeated for any good to prevail. No such parallel exists here.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
A far better chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee than predecessor little Tom Tugendhat, who completely failed to see the coming debate in Afghanistan.
While again the media call it the weirdest thing ever...my twitter feed is filled full of people actually in the biz who were there and thought that the AI event was generally a very positive thing.
While again the media call it the weirdest thing ever...my twitter feed is filled full of people actually in the biz who were there and thought that the AI event was generally a very positive thing.
Well it is a wonderful thing if you want to get paid ££££$$$$ for your AI skills over the next decade or two.
It is not a good thing if you want elected leaders of G7 countries to be at least as powerful as company CEOs.
And more importantly, it is not a good thing if you prefer human intelligence to artificial intelligence.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
I have not taken sides. If you had read my comments on this you would know this.
I have said that Netanyahu is the worst possible leader for Israel, that I have grave reservations about the wisdom of an invasion of Gaza, that what is happening now on the West Bank is awful and a barrier to peace, that an offer of a 2-state solution should be made now, that civilians should be allowed to leave Gaza so as to be safe and so on.
What I noticed is that while the bodies were still warm, people were rushing to condemn Israel, to blame the victims, to celebrate the massacre. What I see is a lot of bad faith criticism of Israel, a lot of lectures about what they must not do but silence about how they should defend themselves. And it makes me wonder whether that silence is because they don't want Israel to defend itself at all.
I can do nothing about what happens in Israel or Gaza. I can do something here. I have noticed a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice reappearing. The callousness and cruelty of those tearing down or defacing photos of hostages disgusts me. I spoke to my Jewish neighbour to find out if her family was OK and she was in tears, grateful that I had been kind to her.
And that makes me very angry indeed: Jews here - our neighbours, our fellow Britons - should not have to feel gratitude for basic human decency. And yet they do because they cannot take it for granted. Because sadistic slaughter is described as "inspiring" or as "tweaking the big guy's nose". It is disgusting. Those who react like that are contemptible. So I am on the side of reaching out to Jews here to make them feel that, regardless of what is happening in the Middle East, someone is on their side here.
That is why I posted this petition ( https://chng.it/yTP5RhgHP6 ) despite the sneering of one poster on here. I know from the reaction of Jews who have seen it that they appreciate it. It is the tiniest of gestures but it is something I can do.
I wouldn’t say Netanyahu is the worst possible leader for Israel. Horrible as he is, there are worse people in Israeli politics - some of them are his allies.
He is quite clearly the worst Israeli PM ever, and was so long before his actions and reactions in the current crisis. Which have been appalling as well.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
I have not taken sides. If you had read my comments on this you would know this.
I have said that Netanyahu is the worst possible leader for Israel, that I have grave reservations about the wisdom of an invasion of Gaza, that what is happening now on the West Bank is awful and a barrier to peace, that an offer of a 2-state solution should be made now, that civilians should be allowed to leave Gaza so as to be safe and so on.
What I noticed is that while the bodies were still warm, people were rushing to condemn Israel, to blame the victims, to celebrate the massacre. What I see is a lot of bad faith criticism of Israel, a lot of lectures about what they must not do but silence about how they should defend themselves. And it makes me wonder whether that silence is because they don't want Israel to defend itself at all.
I can do nothing about what happens in Israel or Gaza. I can do something here. I have noticed a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice reappearing. The callousness and cruelty of those tearing down or defacing photos of hostages disgusts me. I spoke to my Jewish neighbour to find out if her family was OK and she was in tears, grateful that I had been kind to her.
And that makes me very angry indeed: Jews here - our neighbours, our fellow Britons - should not have to feel gratitude for basic human decency. And yet they do because they cannot take it for granted. Because sadistic slaughter is described as "inspiring" or as "tweaking the big guy's nose". It is disgusting. Those who react like that are contemptible. So I am on the side of reaching out to Jews here to make them feel that, regardless of what is happening in the Middle East, someone is on their side here.
That is why I posted this petition ( https://chng.it/yTP5RhgHP6 ) despite the sneering of one poster on here. I know from the reaction of Jews who have seen it that they appreciate it. It is the tiniest of gestures but it is something I can do.
Also Roger's original post said someone
"who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions"
Unless someone has a specific reason (eg they are from or have family from the area) doesn't it ring an alarm bell that a person who has never expressed a view on anything is furious with Israel, out of all the countries and people one could be furious with?
But there are a lot of double standards by many people on all sides.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
It also tends to be wrong; cultures persist for a surprisingly long time despite everything changing around them.
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
Will people continue to wear poppies, the national flower of Palestine in Palestinian colours?
Sure there will be a blue and white "poppy" available for those inclined. Maybe a blue and yellow Ukraine one for those desperate to be seen neutral whilst still virtue signalling.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
On the postcards, having a flick through, you can see why people were so excited. Some of those spaces look pretty amazing now and would have blown the minds of those - at the time - used to small houses with small windows. Even grand public buildings were much more wall than light. Things like Watford Gap and the airport lounge would have been unbelievable vast and light spaces at the time.
For all the criticism of 50s-70s architecture, the functional aspects had some strengths. I lived in a 60s concrete block of flats for a couple of years during my first post-doc position. Ugly on the outside and the insulation was shocking, but it was light, spacious and the floor-ceiling windows across the whole of one wall in the lounge were pretty spectacular. I'd rather live there than in a typical Barratt box.
If we weren't all scared of concrete/non-brick materials, we could be building modern, light, easy to build homes, rather than 1930s-40s pastiches.
(Full disclosure - I live in a 1920s house, but we selected it for the garden and location rather than the house. We have a modern extension with a wall of windows (bifolds and glazed gable) looking on to the garden and the fields beyond)
While again the media call it the weirdest thing ever...my twitter feed is filled full of people actually in the biz who were there and thought that the AI event was generally a very positive thing.
Well it is a wonderful thing if you want to get paid ££££$$$$ for your AI skills over the next decade or two.
It is not a good thing if you want elected leaders of G7 countries to be at least as powerful as company CEOs.
And more importantly, it is not a good thing if you prefer human intelligence to artificial intelligence.
Well so far they have managed to perfect Artificial Stupidity, and I think I generally prefer human stupidity.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
The effect of prosperity (and then the shock of the GFC) seems to have pushed Ireland quite a long way to the Left, over the past 25 years. Long-standing neutrality means that Ireland also does not identify with Western interests, in the way that other similar countries do. And Sinn Fein loves the Palestinian cause.
They have a luxury of a protected position, a bit like privileged rich youths in other countries.
Their decisions and politics would become much more complex were they not shielded by the UK and USA, which they are.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
Very much getting to the nub of things there. The general influx of immigrants has been accepted by the great bulk of the British population and has added to the culture of the nation. HOWEVER, the idea of having no control of who comes into those borders is a powerful if little-articulated concern.
One of the big drivers for Brexit turned out to be Angela Merkel unilaterally opening the EU's borders to whoever could make it here. It is why the boats at Kent are also still a big issue for all politicians. Labour has proposed no answer - and I suspect it will be a problem come the election.
The British are very inclined to help those with a genuine cause to flee their home; they are particularly unforgiving of those queue-bargers who are singularly economic migrants.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
Max Hastings' remark about head boys not making good leaders was spot on in reference to Sunak.
They are conditioned to be suckups to power. Jarring, even so, to see that with Musk.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
It also tends to be wrong; cultures persist for a surprisingly long time despite everything changing around them.
For a very, very long time if one accepts the Jewish diaspora began BCE.
Trump isn't going to leave NATO. He will rather see it as his plaything. I'll bet £10 with anyone that if elected, the US won't leave NATO in Trump's term of office.
NATO may, of course, leave him.
NATO may intervene in the bloody civil war that follows when Trump claims he was elected.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
Will people continue to wear poppies, the national flower of Palestine in Palestinian colours?
Sure there will be a blue and white "poppy" available for those inclined. Maybe a blue and yellow Ukraine one for those desperate to be seen neutral whilst still virtue signalling.
I intend to wear an invisible* poppy this year, to avoid causing offence to anyone or expressing any unintentional opinions on anything.
*to be fair, this has been my practice since wearing the poppy appeared to become mandatory for some - I felt at that point it lost meaning, really.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Your cousin's son goes to a Jewish school? Does that mean you have an ultra orthodox Jewish cousin? That's interesting particularly if she married out as you suggest by saying their father is Irish and I'm presuming not Jewish?
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Senator Rick Scott has now pulled out and endorsed Trump - he was a much-liked and well-funded challenger but wasn't getting much voter attention. It was thought he might endorse de Santis, but...
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
The Good Lady Wife thanks you for flagging this up. She currently has two Holocaust projects, one of which with its roots in the years before the War, so is very much looking forward to reading it.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
Very much getting to the nub of things there. The general influx of immigrants has been accepted by the great bulk of the British population and has added to the culture of the nation. HOWEVER, the idea of having no control of who comes into those borders is a powerful if little-articulated concern.
One of the big drivers for Brexit turned out to be Angela Merkel unilaterally opening the EU's borders to whoever could make it here. It is why the boats at Kent are also still a big issue for all politicians. Labour has proposed no answer - and I suspect it will be a problem come the election.
The British are very inclined to help those with a genuine cause to flee their home; they are particularly unforgiving of those queue-bargers who are singularly economic migrants.
I see the campaign to prove moral deficency in migrants continues apace. Weren't most of the migrants to Germany in 2015 Syrians? I guess the fact that their own country was being torn apart by civil war had nothing to do with those 'queue-bargers'.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I love Boring Postcards. I bought a copy for my dad's birthday when it was first published, must have been 20 years ago. He loved it. It's got a beautifully elegeic quality and captures the optimism and egalitarianism of post war Britain. A lost world destroyed by the oil crisis, Thatcherism and its own contradictions.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
Will people continue to wear poppies, the national flower of Palestine in Palestinian colours?
Sure there will be a blue and white "poppy" available for those inclined. Maybe a blue and yellow Ukraine one for those desperate to be seen neutral whilst still virtue signalling.
I intend to wear an invisible* poppy this year, to avoid causing offence to anyone or expressing any unintentional opinions on anything.
*to be fair, this has been my practice since wearing the poppy appeared to become mandatory for some - I felt at that point it lost meaning, really.
Similar, I still might wear one on the day (depending if Im out and pass a seller), but dislike the performative aspect of two weeks beforehand. A bit like the clap for nurses or taking the knee, less is sometimes more.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
A good tut, I suspect. Maybe even an eye roll. The extent we go not to upset 'communities' has long since stopped surprising me (I'm looking at YOU, the FA, only because you happen to be nearest).
Quite. The Government appears to be trying to pin the offensive slogans of the marchers on 'Iranian disinformation', which is a hell of a reach. Afaicr the vast majority of radicalisation of British Muslims is sponsored by Saudi Arabia and its salafist clerics, though to hear a senior politician say so would be up there with pigs flying. No doubt the intention is to legislate to give the Government yet more control over the information the public is allowed to see, whilst doing nothing to address the issue itself.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
I agree with pretty much all that.
The only place where I'd take issue - but it's an important one - is in saying "cut[ting] off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water ... is criminal".
Now, maybe Nick is using 'criminal' in a moral sense, or perhaps even a political one. If so, I'd agree. Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean you should - in this case, I'd argue Israel very much should not, both because of the morality of the consequences of doing so and because of the wider diplomatic repercussions in terms of global sympathy.
However, none of that makes it legally criminal. When two states go to war (or a proto-state entity in the case of Gaza), a cessation of trade and a closed border is the inevitable consequence. That is an absolutely normal and predictable result. For the same reasons, the enactment of a norm of war cannot be considered a collective punishment. And Hamas, as well as being a terrorist group is the government of Gaza, so this can be considered a state-to-state action.
No state is obliged to provide another state that is waging war upon it any supplies, even essential utilities. The supply of those utilities is the responsibility of the government of that state. Hamas could have built a water desalination plant; instead it tore up pipes to make war materiel. It could have build a power station; instead it put international aid of concrete and building materials into tunnels. I'd argue that Israel does have a legal responsibility to allow trade in essential supplies from third countries to enter - to embargo that would be a crime - but that's a different thing. In any case, Egypt is enforcing that blockade almost as much as Israel.
Like I say, that's a narrow legal point but an important one. Israel is losing the global PR fight because of the severity of its response and its unwillingness to engage with humanitarian operations. It needs to think above the battlefield.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
This seems overly pessimistic to me. A truly independent Palestine on something close to the '67 borders is achievable. Most Palestinians would jump at that option. There is no need to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, nor Jews from Israel. There are obstacles, like the (illegal) Israeli settlements on the West Bank, but some compromise must be possible.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
Well of course. Because I was right?
Based on your previous descriptions of Biden, shouldn't the logical deduction be you are going doddery and senile in your old age?
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Incumbent governments are unpopular during a time of high inflation. Remove Trump from the equation and a sane Republican candidate would walk the election.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
If Haley is the GOP candidate I think Biden might step down and let Newsom take the spot. Biden persists because he thinks only he can beat Trump. He's already done it once.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
What is Israel's alternative?
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
Assassination. Starting with the Hamas leadership sitting safely in Qatar.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Incumbent governments are unpopular during a time of high inflation. Remove Trump from the equation and a sane Republican candidate would walk the election.
But you can't remove Trump from the equation.
Unless Haley is prepared to take on Trump directly and bring him down, she loses - short of a legal or health asteroid taking him out. And she's not.
On the NH-is-not-a-Republican-only-primary point, true, but it will mostly be Republicans voting in it, and those motivated enough to turn out on a cold winter's day, all of which plays to Trump's base rather than independents looking for a least-worst candidate (and Haley is no saint on that score). Still, there's a fight for second place and she may prevail there.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
Max Hastings' remark about head boys not making good leaders was spot on in reference to Sunak.
They are conditioned to be suckups to power. Jarring, even so, to see that with Musk.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
Ireland might do better to look to some aspects of its past. After the Free State was declared many of the Protestant minority fled, some forced out by burnings of houses and other unpleasantness. That suited the Irish very well, intent as they were on creating a Catholic state for a Catholic people, in De Valera's words. A form of ethnic cleansing. Rather similar in fact to what happened in Israel after it was created. It is one those many aspects of the dark side of Irish history the Irish prefer to be silent about. Much like their treatment of Irishmen and women who fought for Britain during WW2.
I will never get over the fact that people on PB consider a poppy to be debatable and entangle it with other causes or virtue signalling. I bought a poppy a week ago and felt rather guilty I had to pop to another shop to get change to do it instead of lobbing a note in.
As long as Britain endures it will have armed forces, and as long as wars exist they will die in them. A poppy for a fortnight each year is a simple and cheap way of saying thank you, for future sacrifice and for remembrance of the past.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
I suggest that "All jobs will go" is 100% untrue, without foundation, impossible and misconceived. As always, some jobs will go but a greater number will be created.
Musk is extraordinarily dim for a genius. His stuff about some kid of his being better of with an AI buddy because he is less good at making friends is toe-curling (especially for the kid). And the stuff about the problem being to find meaning and purpose goes back to well before the wheel, and is not a new insight.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
If Haley is the GOP candidate I think Biden might step down and let Newsom take the spot. Biden persists because he thinks only he can beat Trump. He's already done it once.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Incumbent governments are unpopular during a time of high inflation. Remove Trump from the equation and a sane Republican candidate would walk the election.
But you can't remove Trump from the equation.
Your last point is very important, thinking about it. If someone were to beat Trump in the primaries, does he just give up and walk away, or does he third party run?
I’d like to think he’d withdraw, because he would be scared of losing. But he came into 2016 as a massive underdog, so I’m not entirely convinced that would stop him.
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
The best way to deal with Trump is from The Chimp Paradox where the advice is to let you inner Chimp rant and rant until it exhausts itself and gets tired and then you put it back in the box gently. Under no circumstances, try to argue with it as you will fuel its rage.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
I agree with pretty much all that.
The only place where I'd take issue - but it's an important one - is in saying "cut[ting] off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water ... is criminal".
Now, maybe Nick is using 'criminal' in a moral sense, or perhaps even a political one. If so, I'd agree. Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean you should - in this case, I'd argue Israel very much should not, both because of the morality of the consequences of doing so and because of the wider diplomatic repercussions in terms of global sympathy.
However, none of that makes it legally criminal. When two states go to war (or a proto-state entity in the case of Gaza), a cessation of trade and a closed border is the inevitable consequence. That is an absolutely normal and predictable result. For the same reasons, the enactment of a norm of war cannot be considered a collective punishment. And Hamas, as well as being a terrorist group is the government of Gaza, so this can be considered a state-to-state action.
No state is obliged to provide another state that is waging war upon it any supplies, even essential utilities. The supply of those utilities is the responsibility of the government of that state. Hamas could have built a water desalination plant; instead it tore up pipes to make war materiel. It could have build a power station; instead it put international aid of concrete and building materials into tunnels. I'd argue that Israel does have a legal responsibility to allow trade in essential supplies from third countries to enter - to embargo that would be a crime - but that's a different thing. In any case, Egypt is enforcing that blockade almost as much as Israel.
Like I say, that's a narrow legal point but an important one. Israel is losing the global PR fight because of the severity of its response and its unwillingness to engage with humanitarian operations. It needs to think above the battlefield.
Nice post. Plus Israel lost the global PR fight many moons ago and would rather lose that than lose the actual fight. And in its eyes having your neighbour enter your territory and kill 1,400 of your citizens is losing the actual fight.
I will never get over the fact that people on PB consider a poppy to be debatable and entangle it with other causes or virtue signalling. I bought a poppy a week ago and felt rather guilty I had to pop to another shop to get change to do it instead of lobbing a note in.
As long as Britain endures it will have armed forces, and as long as wars exist they will die in them. A poppy for a fortnight each year is a simple and cheap way of saying thank you, for future sacrifice and for remembrance of the past.
Ask the people of Derry how they feel about the poppy and the army.
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
The best way to deal with Trump is from The Chimp Paradox where the advice is to let you inner Chimp rant and rant until it exhausts itself and gets tired and then you put it back in the box gently. Under no circumstances, try to argue with it as you will fuel its rage.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
Yes, the implications of Trump winning are most likely overegged, I agree. But let us not ignore the trend. If we think all this stops with Trump, I’m afraid it won’t. The genie is out of the bottle, once Trump exits the scenes the reins will be handed to a new demagogue. Who may, if we are unlucky, be less bumbling.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
Sorry @Benpointer I didn't mean to imply you support Hamas etc etc so sorry if it came across that way. I'd agree with your solution. The other one I mentioned before is co-rulership of Gaza by Egypt and Israel which could sort many of the issues.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
Ireland might do better to look to some aspects of its past. After the Free State was declared many of the Protestant minority fled, some forced out by burnings of houses and other unpleasantness. That suited the Irish very well, intent as they were on creating a Catholic state for a Catholic people, in De Valera's words. A form of ethnic cleansing. Rather similar in fact to what happened in Israel after it was created. It is one those many aspects of the dark side of Irish history the Irish prefer to be silent about. Much like their treatment of Irishmen and women who fought for Britain during WW2.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
This seems overly pessimistic to me. A truly independent Palestine on something close to the '67 borders is achievable. Most Palestinians would jump at that option. There is no need to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, nor Jews from Israel. There are obstacles, like the (illegal) Israeli settlements on the West Bank, but some compromise must be possible.
I think this is right. Crazy as it sounds, and an absolute violation as it undoubtedly is, Israel building settlements in the West Bank is part and parcel of the compromise under a possible negotiated solution. We saw with Sharon that it can happen, no matter how unpalatable to some of Israelis not least the settlers.
What is happening in the West Bank is therefore a live negotiation with Israel acting egregiously with the settlements albeit a solution does need to be found, perhaps at the instigation of the US if anyone cared there enough.
But what happened in Gaza is not a negotiation. It can't be for Israel because it violated their sovereignty and put at risk the country.
Take Hamas out (er, of the equation) and I would put the odds of a Middle East settlement within five years as very good.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
Will people continue to wear poppies, the national flower of Palestine in Palestinian colours?
Sure there will be a blue and white "poppy" available for those inclined. Maybe a blue and yellow Ukraine one for those desperate to be seen neutral whilst still virtue signalling.
I intend to wear an invisible* poppy this year, to avoid causing offence to anyone or expressing any unintentional opinions on anything.
*to be fair, this has been my practice since wearing the poppy appeared to become mandatory for some - I felt at that point it lost meaning, really.
Similar, I still might wear one on the day (depending if Im out and pass a seller), but dislike the performative aspect of two weeks beforehand. A bit like the clap for nurses or taking the knee, less is sometimes more.
Yes. Less is more. Obvs no-one should feel compelled to wear a poppy, but it is discourteous to subvert the custom by messing with colours and other bits of subtext.
Personally I wear one on 11th November and Remembrance Sunday (which is always between 8th and 14th November) and in between the two dates.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
It also tends to be wrong; cultures persist for a surprisingly long time despite everything changing around them.
For a very, very long time if one accepts the Jewish diaspora began BCE.
I think Judaism has a high fence around it with its taboo on mixed marriages and multitude of rituals and prohibitions. I really don't understand why it attracts such suspicion and antipathy but this may possibly contribute to it.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Actually that example proves my point. Demonstrators were shot by snipers and clashes with the Police, not by tanks and machine guns. And Yanukovych signed a deal with the opposition and then fled. Not exactly the CCP way of doing things.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Senator Rick Scott has now pulled out and endorsed Trump - he was a much-liked and well-funded challenger but wasn't getting much voter attention. It was thought he might endorse de Santis, but...
Shows how worthless his candidature was that he's now endorsing Trump.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Your cousin's son goes to a Jewish school? Does that mean you have an ultra orthodox Jewish cousin? That's interesting particularly if she married out as you suggest by saying their father is Irish and I'm presuming not Jewish?
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Incumbent governments are unpopular during a time of high inflation. Remove Trump from the equation and a sane Republican candidate would walk the election.
But you can't remove Trump from the equation.
Unless Haley is prepared to take on Trump directly and bring him down, she loses - short of a legal or health asteroid taking him out. And she's not.
On the NH-is-not-a-Republican-only-primary point, true, but it will mostly be Republicans voting in it, and those motivated enough to turn out on a cold winter's day, all of which plays to Trump's base rather than independents looking for a least-worst candidate (and Haley is no saint on that score). Still, there's a fight for second place and she may prevail there.
Agreed. The best outcome for the Republicans is Trump dying peacefully in his bed. They get to move on. Haley or someone else romps home next year. They can go back to slyly tipping the scales in their favour while avoiding the full-on J6-style insurrection or Trump/Powell/Giuliani fraud lies.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
This seems overly pessimistic to me. A truly independent Palestine on something close to the '67 borders is achievable. Most Palestinians would jump at that option. There is no need to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, nor Jews from Israel. There are obstacles, like the (illegal) Israeli settlements on the West Bank, but some compromise must be possible.
I think this is right. Crazy as it sounds, and an absolute violation as it undoubtedly is, Israel building settlements in the West Bank is part and parcel of the compromise under a possible negotiated solution. We saw with Sharon that it can happen, no matter how unpalatable to some of Israelis not least the settlers.
What is happening in the West Bank is therefore a live negotiation with Israel acting egregiously with the settlements albeit a solution does need to be found, perhaps at the instigation of the US if anyone cared there enough..
Not really a 'negotiation' while it's being carried to under the barrel of a gun.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
It also tends to be wrong; cultures persist for a surprisingly long time despite everything changing around them.
For a very, very long time if one accepts the Jewish diaspora began BCE.
I think Judaism has a high fence around it with its taboo on mixed marriages and multitude of rituals and prohibitions. I really don't understand why it attracts such suspicion and antipathy but this may possibly contribute to it.
A stroll around Stamford Hill will confirm the sheer outward bonkersness of Orthodox Judaism. As a vegan, perhaps Roger hates those furry hats and that explains his view of it all.
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
The best way to deal with Trump is from The Chimp Paradox where the advice is to let you inner Chimp rant and rant until it exhausts itself and gets tired and then you put it back in the box gently. Under no circumstances, try to argue with it as you will fuel its rage.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
It’s not entirely Trump alone that’s worrying; it’s the very odd people who are clinging to his coattails.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
What is Israel's alternative?
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
I'm not suggesting an alternative. I'd feel a fraud doing that. I'm not involved and I don't know enough. I was just giving my take on what's driving the Israeli response to Oct 7th. It's about vengeance imo, all the 'war aim' stuff is secondary bordering on irrelevant, and so the key question is when will it be deemed sufficient? Deemed sufficient by Israel, I mean, since I don't think they'll be listening that much to anybody else.
I will never get over the fact that people on PB consider a poppy to be debatable and entangle it with other causes or virtue signalling. I bought a poppy a week ago and felt rather guilty I had to pop to another shop to get change to do it instead of lobbing a note in.
As long as Britain endures it will have armed forces, and as long as wars exist they will die in them. A poppy for a fortnight each year is a simple and cheap way of saying thank you, for future sacrifice and for remembrance of the past.
Ask the people of Derry how they feel about the poppy and the army.
We live in a world of grey, not black and white.
You want warfare to be nice and fair? Armies do things which if they did them in peacetime and as civilians would incur arrest and severe punishment. PB has a predominantly wealthy and older clientele, who want the world to be nice and orderly and polite and analysable and safe. But it's not, and we are three meals and an infinitely-manipulable sense of morality away from absolutely savage cruelty. Like it or lump it the British armed forces are one of the very few things standing between that and you and me, and a small piece of symbolism is a very small price for such a large debt.
I wonder whether because of their neutral role in the war they don't learn as much WW2 history as others in Europe and so the persecution of Europe's Jewish population maybe plays less of a role in their thinking on this issue. Without that context I think the conflict would look rather different.
I’ve come to realise WW2 history isn’t enough to understand the Jewish experience of persecution either. It was after reading Simon Schama’s history of the Jews that I finally got it: a people who have never been safe for long, living as guests with uncertain status in other peoples countries for, essentially, 2,000 years.
It doesn’t of course excuse the bullying behaviour Israel has exhibited for years towards Palestinian civilians on the West Bank but it does explain the deep suspicion of diplomacy and promises when under attack.
There is a brilliant book on the subject of the Jews of Europe in the prewar period, covering a rich diversity of traditions and politics. It focuses on the Jews themselves rather than the anti-semites.
Zionism began in the late nineteenth century, so a long time before WW2 and was motivated not just by the very real threats of European anti-semitism, but also the fear of cultural extinction via assimilation into secular European culture.
I think that is the core of it. It's fear of losing your identity. I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures. It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
It also tends to be wrong; cultures persist for a surprisingly long time despite everything changing around them.
For a very, very long time if one accepts the Jewish diaspora began BCE.
I think Judaism has a high fence around it with its taboo on mixed marriages and multitude of rituals and prohibitions. I really don't understand why it attracts such suspicion and antipathy but this may possibly contribute to it.
It attracts the suspicion of those who do not warm to loyalty, hard work, talent, tradition, family ties and mutual support. No, I have no idea either.
If pro-Palestinian marchers disrupt Remembrance Sunday, I wonder what effect it will have.
Will people continue to wear poppies, the national flower of Palestine in Palestinian colours?
Sure there will be a blue and white "poppy" available for those inclined. Maybe a blue and yellow Ukraine one for those desperate to be seen neutral whilst still virtue signalling.
I intend to wear an invisible* poppy this year, to avoid causing offence to anyone or expressing any unintentional opinions on anything.
*to be fair, this has been my practice since wearing the poppy appeared to become mandatory for some - I felt at that point it lost meaning, really.
Similar, I still might wear one on the day (depending if Im out and pass a seller), but dislike the performative aspect of two weeks beforehand. A bit like the clap for nurses or taking the knee, less is sometimes more.
Yes. Less is more. Obvs no-one should feel compelled to wear a poppy, but it is discourteous to subvert the custom by messing with colours and other bits of subtext.
Personally I wear one on 11th November and Remembrance Sunday (which is always between 8th and 14th November) and in between the two dates.
As I have posted on here previously I consider the suitable period for wearing a Poppy to be from 1 November to the later of either 11 November or Remembrance Sunday.
"There comes a time maybe every 6, 8 generations where the world changes in a very short time. We are at that time now, and I think what happens in the next 2-3 years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next 5 or 6 decades."
People always think the time they're living in is particularly significant. Usually it isn't.
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
The best way to deal with Trump is from The Chimp Paradox where the advice is to let you inner Chimp rant and rant until it exhausts itself and gets tired and then you put it back in the box gently. Under no circumstances, try to argue with it as you will fuel its rage.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
So although Labour is still maintaining a healthy 21 point lead over the Conservatives, the Labour lead is down 3 points in a week and Labour support is down 4 points at the same time as Green support is up 4 points.
I had expected some sampling reversion to the mean - the previous poll with Labour on 48% was exceptional. Nonetheless, if you were expecting Labour to lose support from its own supporters on the back of Keir Starmer's continued failure to criticise Israel's actions in any meaningful way, you would be expect a movement from Labour to the Green Party, which is exactly what we are seeing at the top level. So I think the slight fall in the Labour lead is probably in part down to Starmer's stance on Gaza. It may be clearer when the cross breaks are published, allowing the movement in 2019 Labour voters to be seen.
Off topic but did we taxpayers just stump up huge quantities of cash so that Mr Sunak could have a job interview with Elon Musk?
Isn’t this another of those situations like Sunak being criticised for pointless photo ops by going to Israel the other week whilst people not also criticising Macron for the same.
If Macron had hosted an international AI conference with tech big hitters then everyone opposed to Sunak would now be writing about how the UK is irrelevant because of Brexit and we will lose any influence over future tech to the wonderful French thanks to Macron being a statesman and having global reach.
It’s not a bad thing for the UK to be driving discussions over the future of AI and despite not being the biggest player it is better to be at the table rather than outside the room, which is a criticism of Brexit I seem to remember.
It would be a good thing if the UK is driving discussions on AI. Did anyone watch the Sunak-Musk interview and really think Rishi was driving? The power dynamics were shocking.
Doesn’t help if you’re tiny and next to a hulking brute, however the schoolgirl giggling was weird.
Good to see some straight talking from an ex-BBC guy, the ex being a necessary component of it I guess.
Max Hastings' remark about head boys not making good leaders was spot on in reference to Sunak.
They are conditioned to be suckups to power. Jarring, even so, to see that with Musk.
I feel personally attacked by this comment.
There are exceptions to every rule. I too (absurdly) was once a head boy.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
This seems overly pessimistic to me. A truly independent Palestine on something close to the '67 borders is achievable. Most Palestinians would jump at that option. There is no need to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, nor Jews from Israel. There are obstacles, like the (illegal) Israeli settlements on the West Bank, but some compromise must be possible.
I think this is right. Crazy as it sounds, and an absolute violation as it undoubtedly is, Israel building settlements in the West Bank is part and parcel of the compromise under a possible negotiated solution. We saw with Sharon that it can happen, no matter how unpalatable to some of Israelis not least the settlers.
What is happening in the West Bank is therefore a live negotiation with Israel acting egregiously with the settlements albeit a solution does need to be found, perhaps at the instigation of the US if anyone cared there enough.
But what happened in Gaza is not a negotiation. It can't be for Israel because it violated their sovereignty and put at risk the country.
Take Hamas out (er, of the equation) and I would put the odds of a Middle East settlement within five years as very good.
Hamas are an obstacle to peace, but Israel has been trending right/hawkish for years. What brings Israel to the negotiating table? It won't be Bibi. It won't be Smotrich. You need Likud to collapse in the polls.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Your cousin's son goes to a Jewish school? Does that mean you have an ultra orthodox Jewish cousin? That's interesting particularly if she married out as you suggest by saying their father is Irish and I'm presuming not Jewish?
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
No she is not ultra Orthodox. She converted. They are liberal Reform Jews and the school is a Jewish primary school in North London. We had a wonderful Jewish-Irish wedding a few years back.
Orthodox Judaism feels very unappealing to me, particularly in its attitude to women. I have heard some of my liberal Jewish friends talk about them in ways which are shocking. My only encounter was when I fell on the street in Golders Green. I was sitting, recovering, a bit stunned and a guy in a van - obviously Jewish - stopped to see if I was Ok and insisted on giving me a lift home. We chatted pleasantly and then when I left I offered him my hand to thank him for a tremendously kind gesture. He would not take it and I felt a bit awkward. But I hope he realised I was just trying to thank him.
My French great-grandmother was Jewish - not in any religious sense - but ethnically. Her grandmother was a famous French Jewish actress. She was a practising Catholic. She married an Italian and under the Fascist laws at the time she, my grandmother and mother could have been considered Jewish. For this - among other reasons - the family sheltered in Rome among the convents where my mother remembers many other Jewish girls also hiding there. She also remembered being terrified in the cellar hearing the bombing when Naples was being bombed by the Allies. Had someone denounced them - and their ancestry was well known - I would not be here today. We are all much closer to being vulnerable than we realise.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
Incumbent governments are unpopular during a time of high inflation. Remove Trump from the equation and a sane Republican candidate would walk the election.
But you can't remove Trump from the equation.
Unless Haley is prepared to take on Trump directly and bring him down, she loses - short of a legal or health asteroid taking him out. And she's not.
On the NH-is-not-a-Republican-only-primary point, true, but it will mostly be Republicans voting in it, and those motivated enough to turn out on a cold winter's day, all of which plays to Trump's base rather than independents looking for a least-worst candidate (and Haley is no saint on that score). Still, there's a fight for second place and she may prevail there.
She will, I think, take him on - but only once most of the rest of the field has dropped by the wayside. She might even beat him, depending on how his trials proceed.
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
Still a bit too early to say for me whether Haley is a flash in the pan or not (there have been many throughout the typical primary process), but from what I see of her, there is something impressive there.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
If Haley is the GOP candidate I think Biden might step down and let Newsom take the spot. Biden persists because he thinks only he can beat Trump. He's already done it once.
I think so too. Biden v Trump in Nov is to some extent a related event double imo. The implied price of Neither v Neither is about 10/1 and I'm looking for ways to back that. Reasoning: I only give Trump a 50% chance of being the GOP nominee and if he isn't I think Biden is only 50/50 to run. Therefore 'neither' it should be more like 3/1 than 10/1. Or let's say 5/1 max.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
I agree with pretty much all that.
The only place where I'd take issue - but it's an important one - is in saying "cut[ting] off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water ... is criminal".
Now, maybe Nick is using 'criminal' in a moral sense, or perhaps even a political one. If so, I'd agree. Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean you should - in this case, I'd argue Israel very much should not, both because of the morality of the consequences of doing so and because of the wider diplomatic repercussions in terms of global sympathy.
However, none of that makes it legally criminal. When two states go to war (or a proto-state entity in the case of Gaza), a cessation of trade and a closed border is the inevitable consequence. That is an absolutely normal and predictable result. For the same reasons, the enactment of a norm of war cannot be considered a collective punishment. And Hamas, as well as being a terrorist group is the government of Gaza, so this can be considered a state-to-state action.
No state is obliged to provide another state that is waging war upon it any supplies, even essential utilities. The supply of those utilities is the responsibility of the government of that state. Hamas could have built a water desalination plant; instead it tore up pipes to make war materiel. It could have build a power station; instead it put international aid of concrete and building materials into tunnels. I'd argue that Israel does have a legal responsibility to allow trade in essential supplies from third countries to enter - to embargo that would be a crime - but that's a different thing. In any case, Egypt is enforcing that blockade almost as much as Israel.
Like I say, that's a narrow legal point but an important one. Israel is losing the global PR fight because of the severity of its response and its unwillingness to engage with humanitarian operations. It needs to think above the battlefield.
Nice post. Plus Israel lost the global PR fight many moons ago and would rather lose that than lose the actual fight. And in its eyes having your neighbour enter your territory and kill 1,400 of your citizens is losing the actual fight.
Losing the PR fight could result in losing the actual fight. Not this time but in the none-too-distant future.
Besides, what exactly does 'winning the fight' this time look like? Is Israel intent on properly reoccupying Gaza? Does it intend to remove that population or transfer it to another country? If not, in what way does the outcome differ from the status quo ante? If so, it's playing with fire in a tinderbox.
It's weird because Israel doesn't have many parallels with Ireland. The parallel would be if Irish Americans started wanting to move back to the Homeland, and Scotland went to war several times to stop them, lost, and Ulster Scots got pushed out to make room as a result of the outcome of those wars.
But it's a bit odd for Sinn Fein to be so radically in favour of the side which is the Ulster Scots in this scenario. Is it not more possible that the alliance is less to do with past parallels, and more to do with which superpowers were funding and arming which paramilitary groups in the second half of the 20th Century?
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
Ireland might do better to look to some aspects of its past. After the Free State was declared many of the Protestant minority fled, some forced out by burnings of houses and other unpleasantness. That suited the Irish very well, intent as they were on creating a Catholic state for a Catholic people, in De Valera's words. A form of ethnic cleansing. Rather similar in fact to what happened in Israel after it was created. It is one those many aspects of the dark side of Irish history the Irish prefer to be silent about. Much like their treatment of Irishmen and women who fought for Britain during WW2.
I do however, take my mother's point, that growing up as a Protestant in Dublin in the 1950s was better than growing up a Catholic, because the Irish Catholic Church took no interest in you. You were a hellbound heathen, not worth troubling with.
Biden's comments are no doubt informed by the geopolitical situation and things like AI but otherwise look like just the usual Presidential pre-electioneering to me.
Difficult times and important decisions ahead. I'm the guy for the job. Reelect me.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
I am genuinely interested on why you feel the need to take sides Cyclefree?
Your summary of the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists is stark and correct, and I have not seen anyone on here defend those.
However, does that justify the suffering Israel is wreaking on the people amongst whom terrorists hide? I'd say not.
Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term.
The situation is of course different to the Irish conflict but there are clear parallels (and somebody with more time and fluency than me could probably write another good header on that). The progress made in Ireland, slow and painful though it has been, has all come about through conciliation rather than force.
In summary my position is there are faults on both sides, much more on Hamas and the bastards who fund them to be sure, but Israel's approach has played into their hands and continues to do so. Sadly.
(Btw excellent and thought-provoking header AlanBrooke, thank-you.)
"Furthermore, in what possible way does Israel think its actions are going to 'resolve' the situation in any meaningful way? Answer: they will not, indeed they are only making things worse in the long term."
Actually, that is not necessarily correct and it comes down to what you define as the problem.
For you, and others who are broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims, the problem is Israel's refusal to resolve the Palestinian grievances. In that line of thinking, force doesn't work because it doesn't sort out the root causes. Instead, once you give the Palestinians a just solution, everyone will be happy families.
However, to Israel, that is not the problem. To them, the problem is that they are surrounding by hostile forces who want to destroy them at the first opportunity and will always want to destroy them.
If you take that second view, overwhelming force and punishment does make sense because it acts as a deterrence. You make the price so high of taking action that, even if the other side itches to do something, they do not. In fact, not doing anything, or making a weak response, makes the situation worse because it gives the worst of both worlds - you do enough to inflame the other side's population (not that they need much inflaming) but do not deter them anything.
And if you don't think that works long term, look at China. Butchering thousands in Tiananmen Square was ruthless but it sure did stop any more mass challenges to CCP rule. Conversely, Soviet rule collapsed when the separatist republics and pro-democracy supporters realised they were not going to be gunned down in the streets. Ruthless yes, cruel yes - but effective
Good response, thank-you.
I would just point out that I am not 'broadly sympathetic to the Palestinian aims'; I have massive sympathy for the Jewish people and the terrible way they have been treated for millennia. I do also however have deep sympathy for ordinary Palestinians trying to live a life in what is (now certainly) a hell-hole, and I don't think Israel is helping itself with its current approach.
Two peoples both believing they have a right to the same land is always going to be a very difficult situation to resolve. The best solution to me would seem to be massive funding from the oil-rich Arab states (and Israel and the West) to create a New Palestine somewhere in the region - it's not as if they are short of land overall.
This seems overly pessimistic to me. A truly independent Palestine on something close to the '67 borders is achievable. Most Palestinians would jump at that option. There is no need to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, nor Jews from Israel. There are obstacles, like the (illegal) Israeli settlements on the West Bank, but some compromise must be possible.
I think this is right. Crazy as it sounds, and an absolute violation as it undoubtedly is, Israel building settlements in the West Bank is part and parcel of the compromise under a possible negotiated solution. We saw with Sharon that it can happen, no matter how unpalatable to some of Israelis not least the settlers.
What is happening in the West Bank is therefore a live negotiation with Israel acting egregiously with the settlements albeit a solution does need to be found, perhaps at the instigation of the US if anyone cared there enough.
But what happened in Gaza is not a negotiation. It can't be for Israel because it violated their sovereignty and put at risk the country.
Take Hamas out (er, of the equation) and I would put the odds of a Middle East settlement within five years as very good.
Hamas are an obstacle to peace, but Israel has been trending right/hawkish for years. What brings Israel to the negotiating table? It won't be Bibi. It won't be Smotrich. You need Likud to collapse in the polls.
The best way to bring Israel to the negotiating table is evidence that there is any point being there. There wasn't in 1948, 1973, 1993, or 2000, because the Arab side was never serious about reaching an agreement within any reasonably acceptable bounds. That's why Israel has trended right. Why vote for peace if it's unobtainable, you might as well vote for security (Likud's collapse resulting partly from their failure to deliver that promise).
Yes Biden is right. But actually while we all fear for the state of Western democracy if Trump gets elected, at some point we actually do need to confront the very idea that the systems we have built perhaps don’t interface very well with the modern world.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
The best way to deal with Trump is from The Chimp Paradox where the advice is to let you inner Chimp rant and rant until it exhausts itself and gets tired and then you put it back in the box gently. Under no circumstances, try to argue with it as you will fuel its rage.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
It really isn't. Maybe Trump does fail to make it stick but while the US's constitution does make it harder to turn America into a dictatorship than most countries, it doesn't make it impossible. Pieces of paper are only of so much value up against armed gangs.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
A future for Rishi as a talk show host, do we think? The new Parky?
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Your cousin's son goes to a Jewish school? Does that mean you have an ultra orthodox Jewish cousin? That's interesting particularly if she married out as you suggest by saying their father is Irish and I'm presuming not Jewish?
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
A lot going on there, Rog.
Between me you and the lampost. I wondered who on here was likely to be Jewish-man married to Jewish second cousin not counting- and you were the most likely. Please don't be insulted but though it's not like meeting someone you can sometimes tell. And I do not want an answer. Just someone privately thinking I might be peceptive and not a lying moron will do.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend
From the article: "So while I can see the downside of this gamble Im less clear on what the upside is". The reason you're confused is because you're viewing it as a political gamble with some self-interested goal. It's a mistake that political commentators often make. Occasionally people in politics behave in a certain way because they think it's the right thing to do.
Not saying that it necessarily is the right thing to do. There's a strong moral case to be made for the pragmatism of other western leaders: "let's pretend we're okay with Netenyahu doing things that are clearly wrong because it's the best hope of preventing him from doing worse things" (although there's also an element of "we may too find ourselves wanting to punish civilians for the actions of terrorists one day"). But Ireland's approach is clearly based on principle (and, as you say, empathy with one side of the conflict) rather than out of self-interest.
Ireland might do better to look to some aspects of its past. After the Free State was declared many of the Protestant minority fled, some forced out by burnings of houses and other unpleasantness. That suited the Irish very well, intent as they were on creating a Catholic state for a Catholic people, in De Valera's words. A form of ethnic cleansing. Rather similar in fact to what happened in Israel after it was created. It is one those many aspects of the dark side of Irish history the Irish prefer to be silent about. Much like their treatment of Irishmen and women who fought for Britain during WW2.
I do however, take my mother's point, that growing up as a Protestant in Dublin in the 1950s was better than growing up a Catholic, because the Irish Catholic Church took no interest in you. You were a hellbound heathen, not worth troubling with.
Graham Norton said it was easier growing up gay than being protestant.
Still we spend enough time raking over Britain's past shames. No need to start obsessing over others'.
It's weird because Israel doesn't have many parallels with Ireland. The parallel would be if Irish Americans started wanting to move back to the Homeland, and Scotland went to war several times to stop them, lost, and Ulster Scots got pushed out to make room as a result of the outcome of those wars.
But it's a bit odd for Sinn Fein to be so radically in favour of the side which is the Ulster Scots in this scenario. Is it not more possible that the alliance is less to do with past parallels, and more to do with which superpowers were funding and arming which paramilitary groups in the second half of the 20th Century?
Analogies can be drawn in different ways. The Scots have (partly) distant ancestry in Ireland, and then moved to Ireland in large numbers, eventually taking over. Perhaps that analogy is closer to why Sinn Fein sympathise with the Palestinians.
I will never get over the fact that people on PB consider a poppy to be debatable and entangle it with other causes or virtue signalling. I bought a poppy a week ago and felt rather guilty I had to pop to another shop to get change to do it instead of lobbing a note in.
As long as Britain endures it will have armed forces, and as long as wars exist they will die in them. A poppy for a fortnight each year is a simple and cheap way of saying thank you, for future sacrifice and for remembrance of the past.
Ask the people of Derry how they feel about the poppy and the army.
We live in a world of grey, not black and white.
You want warfare to be nice and fair? Armies do things which if they did them in peacetime and as civilians would incur arrest and severe punishment. PB has a predominantly wealthy and older clientele, who want the world to be nice and orderly and polite and analysable and safe. But it's not, and we are three meals and an infinitely-manipulable sense of morality away from absolutely savage cruelty. Like it or lump it the British armed forces are one of the very few things standing between that and you and me, and a small piece of symbolism is a very small price for such a large debt.
“We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
Comments
It is equivalent to joining a pro Palestinian protest march.
There's nothing to gain except expressing a strongly held moral view that needs expression. Just keeping quiet would feel wrong.
At some point the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Party_System will be written, displacing the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Party_System#Seventh_Party_System , and the change will be backdated to around 2016 as Brexit and Trump got elected.
Biden usually adopts a somewhat less hyperbolic turn of phrase, so this was notable.
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
Well we can speak with some knowledge then. There is so much ignorance on the subject it's often difficult to know where to start and hardly worth bothering with. The number of people who don't even know any Jews as I'm discovering on here is remarkable.
My family were orthodox in the old fashioned Orthodox/Reform meaning of the word and compared to most at the time we were considered religious. Milk/Meat kosher kitchen no smoking on Saturdays attendance at major festivals etc. Then aged 18 my sister fell in love with a Jewish boy who had met a young rabbi at Leeds University who converted him to the next level of Orthodox and they married and moved into another world.
Posts of yours berating Muslims for their treatment of wives making them cover up used to make me smile. Ultra Orthodox can't shake hands with members of the opposite sex whether Jew or Gentile. Visiting my mother in hospital with my sister I had to explain that she wasn't being rude but she couldn't shake their hands for religeous reasons. They don't wear wigs for vanity Much of the rest is too bizarre for a forum like this but as you probably know birth control is not only forbidden but abstinance is too and she now has twelve children all of them have been to Jewish schools and have or will have arranged marriages when they're eighteen.
They are the future of the Jewdaism. The rest like your cousin will marry out and "I had a Jewish cousin/aunt/grandfather" is what you'll be left with. This is why Israrel are so keen to attract Jews from wherever they can find them. Even questionable ones like the Ethiopians. Because at least when they go dating there's an above average chance it'll be with another Jew.
But it's probably an even bigger pivot point than 1989-91 was, given that geopolitical change is occurring at the same time as major industrial change (the internet came slightly later in the last one, though not by much), and climate change is really becoming apparent now too.
So, in WWII there were of course good Germans, but as a policy the state as a whole, including the good ones, had to be comprehensively defeated for any good to prevail. No such parallel exists here.
I think this was a driver in Brexit: fear of losing your English identity to a United States of Europe or to a large influx of immigrants with different cultures.
It's a powerful motivation. It's existential.
‘Failed to be a critical friend’: UK accused of taking eye off Israel-Palestine crisis
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/03/failed-to-be-a-critical-friend-uk-accused-of-taking-eye-off-israel-palestine-crisis
Alicia Kearns, the chair of the committee, which will start holding evidence sessions on the issue in November, has been one of the most prominent MPs warning that a crisis was brewing that required greater attention and a more robust approach from the UK towards Israel’s new government...
One of the few apparently talented Conservative MPs left.
1) were killed by the Mau Mau
2) killed Mau Mau
?
It is not a good thing if you want elected leaders of G7 countries to be at least as powerful as company CEOs.
And more importantly, it is not a good thing if you prefer human intelligence to artificial intelligence.
He is quite clearly the worst Israeli PM ever, and was so long before his actions and reactions in the current crisis. Which have been appalling as well.
"who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions"
Unless someone has a specific reason (eg they are from or have family from the area) doesn't it ring an alarm bell that a person who has never expressed a view on anything is furious with Israel, out of all the countries and people one could be furious with?
But there are a lot of double standards by many people on all sides.
In the West we rely very much on governmental systems and structures created for a different age. For some of us, those basic structures are at least 150 years old and some parts are even older. Part of the reason why demagogues like Trump are gaining in popularity is because the systems are creaking and inefficient, and cannot cope with the spread of information and vast changes in lifestyle that we are being asked to consider.
I don’t have a solution to this, or what our governments should look like in 50 years time, only to say I suspect that one way or the other we have to confront this, and I hope that we stay on the side of liberalism.
For all the criticism of 50s-70s architecture, the functional aspects had some strengths. I lived in a 60s concrete block of flats for a couple of years during my first post-doc position. Ugly on the outside and the insulation was shocking, but it was light, spacious and the floor-ceiling windows across the whole of one wall in the lounge were pretty spectacular. I'd rather live there than in a typical Barratt box.
If we weren't all scared of concrete/non-brick materials, we could be building modern, light, easy to build homes, rather than 1930s-40s pastiches.
(Full disclosure - I live in a 1920s house, but we selected it for the garden and location rather than the house. We have a modern extension with a wall of windows (bifolds and glazed gable) looking on to the garden and the fields beyond)
"But evidence has been piling up that Haley might actually have something on her hands — buoyed by strong debate performances, poll numbers that have been consistently climbing and a growing chorus of Republicans telling all the boys to pack up and let her take Trump head on.
On the latter, there seems to be broad agreement that for Haley, New Hampshire is, if not make-or-break, definitely the venue that can solidify her status as the non-Trump Republican in this race."
“People forget that New Hampshire is not a Republican-only primary.”
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2023/11/03/haleys-moment-00125199
Their decisions and politics would become much more complex were they not shielded by the UK and USA, which they are.
One of the big drivers for Brexit turned out to be Angela Merkel unilaterally opening the EU's borders to whoever could make it here. It is why the boats at Kent are also still a big issue for all politicians. Labour has proposed no answer - and I suspect it will be a problem come the election.
The British are very inclined to help those with a genuine cause to flee their home; they are particularly unforgiving of those queue-bargers who are singularly economic migrants.
If she did face Biden in an election, I do believe she’d win at a canter.
*to be fair, this has been my practice since wearing the poppy appeared to become mandatory for some - I felt at that point it lost meaning, really.
Weren't most of the migrants to Germany in 2015 Syrians? I guess the fact that their own country was being torn apart by civil war had nothing to do with those 'queue-bargers'.
The only place where I'd take issue - but it's an important one - is in saying "cut[ting] off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water ... is criminal".
Now, maybe Nick is using 'criminal' in a moral sense, or perhaps even a political one. If so, I'd agree. Just because you can legally do something doesn't mean you should - in this case, I'd argue Israel very much should not, both because of the morality of the consequences of doing so and because of the wider diplomatic repercussions in terms of global sympathy.
However, none of that makes it legally criminal. When two states go to war (or a proto-state entity in the case of Gaza), a cessation of trade and a closed border is the inevitable consequence. That is an absolutely normal and predictable result. For the same reasons, the enactment of a norm of war cannot be considered a collective punishment. And Hamas, as well as being a terrorist group is the government of Gaza, so this can be considered a state-to-state action.
No state is obliged to provide another state that is waging war upon it any supplies, even essential utilities. The supply of those utilities is the responsibility of the government of that state. Hamas could have built a water desalination plant; instead it tore up pipes to make war materiel. It could have build a power station; instead it put international aid of concrete and building materials into tunnels. I'd argue that Israel does have a legal responsibility to allow trade in essential supplies from third countries to enter - to embargo that would be a crime - but that's a different thing. In any case, Egypt is enforcing that blockade almost as much as Israel.
Like I say, that's a narrow legal point but an important one. Israel is losing the global PR fight because of the severity of its response and its unwillingness to engage with humanitarian operations. It needs to think above the battlefield.
It was far from cringe. It was actually one of the most revealing interviews about AI that I’ve ever seen. In under an hour Musk - cleverly coaxed out of his awkwardness by Sunak - gave an incredibly cogent analysis of AI - what it can do, where it will go, how it might impact
Musk didn’t hold back either. “All jobs will go” - and soon. And much else
Well worth giving a miss then.
But you can't remove Trump from the equation.
Biden persists because he thinks only he can beat Trump. He's already done it once.
On the NH-is-not-a-Republican-only-primary point, true, but it will mostly be Republicans voting in it, and those motivated enough to turn out on a cold winter's day, all of which plays to Trump's base rather than independents looking for a least-worst candidate (and Haley is no saint on that score). Still, there's a fight for second place and she may prevail there.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend Ireland might do better to look to some aspects of its past. After the Free State was declared many of the Protestant minority fled, some forced out by burnings of houses and other unpleasantness. That suited the Irish very well, intent as they were on creating a Catholic state for a Catholic people, in De Valera's words. A form of ethnic cleansing. Rather similar in fact to what happened in Israel after it was created. It is one those many aspects of the dark side of Irish history the Irish prefer to be silent about. Much like their treatment of Irishmen and women who fought for Britain during WW2.
As long as Britain endures it will have armed forces, and as long as wars exist they will die in them. A poppy for a fortnight each year is a simple and cheap way of saying thank you, for future sacrifice and for remembrance of the past.
Musk is extraordinarily dim for a genius. His stuff about some kid of his being better of with an AI buddy because he is less good at making friends is toe-curling (especially for the kid). And the stuff about the problem being to find meaning and purpose goes back to well before the wheel, and is not a new insight.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/66858952
I’d like to think he’d withdraw, because he would be scared of losing. But he came into 2016 as a massive underdog, so I’m not entirely convinced that would stop him.
The best thing the States can do if it wants to get past Trump is to let him run in the election, if he wins the nomination, and then he either loses (in which case he is gone) or wins (and he is out in 2028). The guy just wants attention and that is it. All this talk about "if Trump gets in, it will be the last elections in the States", "it will be Gilead", "he will be a dictator" etc etc is rubbish.
We live in a world of grey, not black and white.
What is happening in the West Bank is therefore a live negotiation with Israel acting egregiously with the settlements albeit a solution does need to be found, perhaps at the instigation of the US if anyone cared there enough.
But what happened in Gaza is not a negotiation. It can't be for Israel because it violated their sovereignty and put at risk the country.
Take Hamas out (er, of the equation) and I would put the odds of a Middle East settlement within five years as very good.
Personally I wear one on 11th November and Remembrance Sunday (which is always between 8th and 14th November) and in between the two dates.
I really don't understand why it attracts such suspicion and antipathy but this may possibly contribute to it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67307102
I have no doubt that he is the only rock star who could possibly be accused of sexual assault decades ago.
Lab 44 (-4)
Con 23 (-1)
LD 9 (=)
Ref 9 (+1)
Green 9 (+4)
https://twitter.com/lara_spirit/status/1720354827790635193
So although Labour is still maintaining a healthy 21 point lead over the Conservatives, the Labour lead is down 3 points in a week and Labour support is down 4 points at the same time as Green support is up 4 points.
I had expected some sampling reversion to the mean - the previous poll with Labour on 48% was exceptional. Nonetheless, if you were expecting Labour to lose support from its own supporters on the back of Keir Starmer's continued failure to criticise Israel's actions in any meaningful way, you would be expect a movement from Labour to the Green Party, which is exactly what we are seeing at the top level. So I think the slight fall in the Labour lead is probably in part down to Starmer's stance on Gaza. It may be clearer when the cross breaks are published, allowing the movement in 2019 Labour voters to be seen.
I too (absurdly) was once a head boy.
Orthodox Judaism feels very unappealing to me, particularly in its attitude to women. I have heard some of my liberal Jewish friends talk about them in ways which are shocking. My only encounter was when I fell on the street in Golders Green. I was sitting, recovering, a bit stunned and a guy in a van - obviously Jewish - stopped to see if I was Ok and insisted on giving me a lift home. We chatted pleasantly and then when I left I offered him my hand to thank him for a tremendously kind gesture. He would not take it and I felt a bit awkward. But I hope he realised I was just trying to thank him.
My French great-grandmother was Jewish - not in any religious sense - but ethnically. Her grandmother was a famous French Jewish actress. She was a practising Catholic. She married an Italian and under the Fascist laws at the time she, my grandmother and mother could have been considered Jewish. For this - among other reasons - the family sheltered in Rome among the convents where my mother remembers many other Jewish girls also hiding there. She also remembered being terrified in the cellar hearing the bombing when Naples was being bombed by the Allies. Had someone denounced them - and their ancestry was well known - I would not be here today. We are all much closer to being vulnerable than we realise.
Besides, what exactly does 'winning the fight' this time look like? Is Israel intent on properly reoccupying Gaza? Does it intend to remove that population or transfer it to another country? If not, in what way does the outcome differ from the status quo ante? If so, it's playing with fire in a tinderbox.
But it's a bit odd for Sinn Fein to be so radically in favour of the side which is the Ulster Scots in this scenario. Is it not more possible that the alliance is less to do with past parallels, and more to do with which superpowers were funding and arming which paramilitary groups in the second half of the 20th Century?
A whiff of grapeshot? I do however, take my mother's point, that growing up as a Protestant in Dublin in the 1950s was better than growing up a Catholic, because the Irish Catholic Church took no interest in you. You were a hellbound heathen, not worth troubling with.
Difficult times and important decisions ahead. I'm the guy for the job. Reelect me.
Still we spend enough time raking over Britain's past shames. No need to start obsessing over others'.
A whiff of grapeshot? “We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”