If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
Banks' Culture novels:
"Since the majority of its biological population can have almost anything they want without the need to work, there is little need for laws or enforcement, and the culture is described by Banks as space socialism."
It seems just like the post-Indy Scotland then....
Certainly in terms of the lack of work. Maybe not so much in terms of having what we want.
How shit must the rUK be?
'Scotland's unemployment rate has increased slightly to 3.2%, according to new figures.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that an estimated 89,000 Scots adults were unemployed between March and May, up from 85,000 in the previous three months.
Scotland's unemployment rate is below the UK-wide rate, which was 4% in the latest period.'
That's a bit rough. I look forward to someone putting forward the thesis that the wise and foresightful aegis of HMG has simultaneously looked after Scotland while crapping all over the NE. I'll certainly believe the second part.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
why are we developing something that will make life worse for many people?
Because the people doing it aren't "many people", they're rich tech bros who don't care about humans other than sources of profit.
Let's take Musk as an example. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He owns a satellite network. He turned it off to f*** up an attack by the Ukrainians. He moved one factory from California to Texas to avoid unionised labour, and he opened other factories in China because he could work them 24hrs a day. There are other rumours which I can't print here.
If he could make a massive profit by making life worse for everybody else, he'd do it.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I'd like to buy Boring Postcards but it seems to be unavailable.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
why are we developing something that will make life worse for many people?
Because the people doing it aren't "many people", they're rich tech bros who don't care about humans other than sources of profit.
Let's take Musk as an example. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He owns a satellite network. He turned it off to f*** up an attack by the Ukrainians. He moved one factory from California to Texas to avoid unionised labour, and he opened other factories in China because he could work them 24hrs a day. There are other rumours which I can't print here.
If he could make a massive profit by making life worse for everybody else, he'd do it.
And he's not the worst.
He aspires to be a Mind (hence Neuralink), and not 'meat'; the rest of us aren't really a concern.
Rishi will be hoping that a massive blob of Elon's stardust has rubbed off on him. If it has - and Rishi is soon to be viewed globally as the Galileo of AI - then the next election is utterly up for grabs. Sir Keir will be fighting against a man who is literally the overlord of a new societal, technological, cultural and economic epoch. Can dreary old Sir Keir, with his green-belt-destroying new towns and his umming and arring over Gaza, really compete with that?
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I'd like to buy Boring Postcards but it seems to be unavailable.
I wondered too. But some (apparently in decent condition) available second hand.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
The blame shifting by accusing the US seems a bit of a get out.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
I'd like to buy Boring Postcards but it seems to be unavailable.
When I look at the images of some of those Boring Postcards from the 1950s, I see a much happier and optimistic place than today's Britain.
It was a naive time, thinking that the worst of humanity (nuclear war excepted) was in the rear view mirror and led towards a happier future by American media and consumerism.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
why are we developing something that will make life worse for many people?
Because the people doing it aren't "many people", they're rich tech bros who don't care about humans other than sources of profit.
Let's take Musk as an example. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He owns a satellite network. He turned it off to f*** up an attack by the Ukrainians. He moved one factory from California to Texas to avoid unionised labour, and he opened other factories in China because he could work them 24hrs a day. There are other rumours which I can't print here.
If he could make a massive profit by making life worse for everybody else, he'd do it.
And he's not the worst.
He aspires to be a Mind (hence Neuralink), and not 'meat'; the rest of us aren't really a concern.
Nah, that's excusing him. He's really not as bright as he (or his fanbois) make out. He's also not a very nice person.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
When I look at the images of some of those Boring Postcards from the 1950s, I see a much happier and optimistic place than today's Britain.
It was a naive time, thinking that the worst of humanity (nuclear war excepted) was in the rear view mirror and led towards a happier future by American media and consumerism.
Some of us on PB still have that vision of great suburban carfriendly expanses, it must be said. And I can't help but think of the many whose brains were permanently damaged on all that alkyl lead.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
Is that the original 1950s one, or some later modernised [sic] version?
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
The blame shifting by accusing the US seems a bit of a get out.
Likewise his threat to hit Israel IF Israel attacks Lebanon “pre-emptively”
That sounds more scared than belligerent. That aircraft carrier group in the eastern Med must weigh on their minds
Apologies if mentioned before but Cameron (R) is now ahead of Beshear in the polling in the race for the Kentucky Governorship by 1 point. Previously, Beshear had a high single digit plus lead.
Mississippi is going the other way: the Democrat has closed the gap to 1%:
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
Feersum Endjinn was my favourite. Sci-fi, but not Culture. The phonetic spelling takes some reading though. Edit: And indeed spelling, hence my mis-mis-spelt username.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
TwiX is speckled with angry Islamists shouting at hezbolllah for their cowardice
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
Feersum Endjinn was my favourite. Sci-fi, but not Culture. The phonetic spelling takes some reading though.
It was fine after the first dozen or so pages - you just have to get into a rhythm.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
Feersum Endjinn was my favourite. Sci-fi, but not Culture. The phonetic spelling takes some reading though.
A doddle if one has habitually read Doric or other regional Scots forms - not because it's in Scots, but it's the trick of relaxing and letting the sound flow through the mind's ear that does it.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
The blame shifting by accusing the US seems a bit of a get out.
Likewise his threat to hit Israel IF Israel attacks Lebanon “pre-emptively”
That sounds more scared than belligerent. That aircraft carrier group in the eastern Med must weigh on their minds
Iran and Hezbollah were never in on this. Question is whether it was Hamas alone or Hamas captured by ISIS.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Tebay
100%
Tebay is the best by miles, with an honorary mention to Gloucester too.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
It’s much less than an hour *now* unless you have an EV that can’t charge at high speed (AKA supercharge). Everything that’s been in production for quite a while can do that.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
Feersum Endjinn was my favourite. Sci-fi, but not Culture. The phonetic spelling takes some reading though.
A doddle if one has habitually read Doric or other regional Scots forms - not because it's in Scots, but it's the trick of relaxing and letting the sound flow through the mind's ear that does it.
Reading A Clockwork Orange is a bit like that. Burgess also wrote a couple of novels in Shakespearean English - Nothing Like The Sun, and A Dead Man In Deptford. Clever bloke.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Tebay
That is an amazing facility, I sampled it both ways last year, a highpoint of our Lake District and Scotland holiday. I'd say its Northbound shades it over the Southbound and both would be 'top tier' quite easily.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Tebay
That is an amazing facility, I sampled it both ways last year, a highpoint of our Lake District and Scotland holiday. I'd say its Northbound shades it over the Southbound and both would be 'top tier' quite easily.
Yes, agree Northbounds best.
There is a similar facility in Gloucester but it is always rammed. Probably because the service stations either side arent up to much
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
No number is too high for you so I don't know why you're bothering with any stats.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
It's ok but it's not top tier - ie those handful of service stations that are 'destination' in the sense that you'll drive past several others, even feeling quite tired and needing the loo, in order to reach it.
Tebay
100%
Tebay is the best by miles, with an honorary mention to Gloucester too.
Tebay and Gloucester are, of course, the same company.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
No number is too high for you so I don't know why you're bothering with any stats.
Because truth matters.
It wouldn't surprise me if this ends with more Gazan civilian deaths than Ukrainian deaths, that would be entirely logical. Afterall, Ukraine has done everything it can to get civilians out of harms way, whereas Hamas use humans as human shields in violation of the Geneva Convention and the rules of war.
I'd be shocked if we're there yet. And if Russia were to start using its own civilians as human shields, I'd still support Ukraine's right to fightback against Russia just as much as Israel has every right to fightback against Hamas.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
What is Israel's alternative?
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
Assassination. Starting with the Hamas leadership sitting safely in Qatar.
That's a good answer, thanks. But do you think that would be a fast enough process to stop Hamas attacking again? If we had assassinated Hitler in 1940, would Germany still have prosecuted the war? Yes, absolutely. Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, but a government.
Besides, assassinations are hard to do with zero civilian casualties as well.
I also dislike the idea of carrying assassinations over into other relatively uninvolved states. I thought we all disapproved of Saudi's assassination of Khashoggi in Turkey? Or the Salisbury mess?
In both those cases the targets were civilians whose only crime had been to annoy their governments. I am not saying we should go around killing people out of hand. But Hamas are the declared enemies of Israel who are running an active campaign of terrorism against the country. I do think assassination is a justified tool under those circumstances. And of course Israel has history of this.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
I'm pretty sure more civilians have been killed than in equivalent offensives in Ukraine, because as soon as Russia invaded most civilians fled the warzone for areas further West, or (as in Kherson) were immediately under Russian occupation before anyone knew what was happening. As in WW1 Ukraine and Russia are now fighting over wasteland abandoned by most humans. The only civilian deaths are of those caught by Russia's deep missile and drone strikes.
The tragic difference is that Gazans are trapped. There is nowhere to go.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
No number is too high for you so I don't know why you're bothering with any stats.
Because truth matters.
It wouldn't surprise me if this ends with more Gazan civilian deaths than Ukrainian deaths, that would be entirely logical. Afterall, Ukraine has done everything it can to get civilians out of harms way, whereas Hamas use humans as human shields in violation of the Geneva Convention and the rules of war.
Israel has now murdered 9,257 Palestinians, including 2,245 women and 3,826 children, since 7th October.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
TwiX is speckled with angry Islamists shouting at hezbolllah for their cowardice
Hezbollah: as much use as a chocolate teapot.
But to be serious, if it had gone the other way and they'd said they were mobilising that would have been a shock and a sign that various people's geopolitical calculus had malfunctioned.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
No number is too high for you so I don't know why you're bothering with any stats.
Because truth matters.
It wouldn't surprise me if this ends with more Gazan civilian deaths than Ukrainian deaths, that would be entirely logical. Afterall, Ukraine has done everything it can to get civilians out of harms way, whereas Hamas use humans as human shields in violation of the Geneva Convention and the rules of war.
Israel has now murdered 9,257 Palestinians, including 2,245 women and 3,826 children, since 7th October.
No it has not.
Those figures are unsubstantiated bullshit, and any casualties of war are not murdered.
They're dead, yes, and that's tragic and its Hamas' fault, but they're not murdered.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.
Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.
On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
What's the betting significant proportion of those on the million person march will have bought from the likes of Shein that uses cotton produced by Uyghurs under slavery conditions. Wouldn't be surprised if the material for the flags and banners made by them.
And of course lots are getting their one sided info about Israel / Palestine from TikTok.....
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
"Excession" has dated: since it's basically a pastiche of USENET newsgroups, this is not surprising. Although some of its concepts do live on in my mind, with OCPs being the obvious one, but also the overoptimistic silly ship that tries to makes first contact. The latter always springs to mind when younger people try to get to grips with the harder end of politics and get the crap beaten out of them.
Plus, if I'm remembering the right spacecraft, there is a part of me that wants to go out like the Sleeper Service tried to. Foreshadowing? Well, hopefully I won't find out for some time...
"Player of Games" and "Use of Weapons" are classics and worth reading even if not a genre fan.
With his non-SF stuff, I remember "The Bridge" the best
I think all the non-SF (non-M) books up to "The Crow Road" are good.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
That's sophistry. While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
That's sophistry. While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
Yes, it does.
So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
I once ran into Jarvis Cocker in the gents toilet at Watford Gap services. Somehow it felt like the right kind of place for that to happen.
An interesting and entertaining header Alanbrooke. David V Goliiath a nice touch and the point that hits the nail square on. It doesn't really matter what your personal history this is a visceral conflict and the wonderful Old Testament story of David and Goliath which we were taught as children is more a determinant of where we individually stand than who gave the deeds to who 3000 years ago or who should or shouldn't have 80 years ago or who you ethnically identify with.
I had lunch with a pretty hard headed advertising chum yesterday who I have never heard express a coherent political view on anything being furious about the Israeli's actions. He was litterally livid. He couldn't stand the thought of Israel bombing children whether or not they were shielding Hamas operatives or anyone else. It really hurt him.
Whatever we may feel about who started what, this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose and he's getting severely battered for it. Whether he had it coming is neither here nor there. We are all watching a dumb animal being mercilessly beaten and few can watch it dispassionately. It's hurting us individually and we're rooting for the animal.
It's for that reason that there will be a million green and red flags next week-end. Not that they don't like Jews or Israelis.
"this is a film where the little guy tweeked the big guys nose"
Rape of women so violent their pelvises were broken. Murder of babies in their cots. Cutting off limbs. Beheading with a shovel. Slicing off women's breasts. Gouging out mens eyes. Gunning down teenagers and old people. Disembowelling a pregnant woman. Burning people alive.
This is your idea of tweaking someone's nose is it?
I am rooting for those who suffered this, their families, their friends and those who are dying now because of the actions of those who did this.
And I despise those who are making people here in this country, Jews living here, feel unsafe and unwanted. They include my own cousin, who has an Irish father, and a son in primary school where they have had to pay for extra security because of threats from the sorts of people who wave Palestinian flags, celebrate massacres and call them inspiring. And then there are people like you who stand by and, as you've made clear on this forum, dismiss their concerns.
Even if badly expressed, and even if some here wish it were not true, it does seem to be the case that support for Israel is dropping as its response to the 7th October outrages is perceived to be disproportionate. Even Israel's staunchest ally, the United States, has warned about this. It is not just something made up by social media malcontents.
There is good faith criticism to be made of Israel.
And there is a lot of bad faith criticism made by people who do not want Israel to defend itself and/or who hate Jews.
There is rather more of the latter than people are willing to admit. The increase in anti-Jewish hatred in this and other countries is evidence of that. Ireland is not immune from this. It is shameful.
And it is precisely because of this that Israel will take steps that will make many of us despair. Because even after a massacre as brutal and sadistic as this one, it - and Jews elsewhere - cannot count on basic human decency and sympathy.
I actually don't think there's been much active anti-semitism (insults in the street, attacks on synagogues) in recent years, but a lot of people do wrongly think Jewish=Israeli, and daily reports of what appear to be Israeli war crimes stir up latent anti-semitism and even expand it to people who never gave it a thought, even though it's as unfair as blaming random people of Arab descent for Hamas's hideous pogrom.
Personally, as someone who was on Labour Friends of Irrael's executive (though I only later found out that I'm of Jewish descent), I think:
1. The Hamas slaughter of civilians was inexcusably horrible and retaliation is entirely justified. 2. Assassinate Hamas leaders, certainly. Go into Gaza, if necessary. But show you're trying to minimise civilian casualties and don't cut off 2 million men, women and children from medicine, food and water, since that too is criminal. 3. Neither are the fault of people who live in Britain - whether of Jewish or Palestianian backgrounds - whatever their personal sympathies may be. During the Indo-Pakistani wars, people of both backgrounds in Nottingham agreed to leave each other in peace, since it clearly wasn't their doing - we need to follow that now.
The Israeli response looks indiscriminate and OTT brutal. Dread to think what the final Palestinian toll will be. Huge numbers of innocent people are going to be killed, injured, displaced, and Israel won't be any less vulnerable at the end of it. Their response is however no surprise in the light of Oct 7th. Forget the official 'war aim' (impossible in any case), the driver for what they're doing now is vengeance for that and 'that' was off-the-scale in size and barbarity. So what we have here, the way I see it, is another one of those things you sometimes come across that are at the same time wrong, unjustifiable, ill considered, and understandable.
What is Israel's alternative?
It's fine to say: "Go after Hamas's leadership", but what mechanism is there to do this? What is the surgical knife that will remove Hamas without hurting any civilians, especially when Hamas bury themselves within the civilians?
And if some civilian deaths are deemed 'acceptable' to attack Hamas, then how many? It's an impossible question, because saying 'none' means Israel cannot defend itself from the evil, and saying 'as many as it takes' is hideous.
Assassination. Starting with the Hamas leadership sitting safely in Qatar.
That's a good answer, thanks. But do you think that would be a fast enough process to stop Hamas attacking again? If we had assassinated Hitler in 1940, would Germany still have prosecuted the war? Yes, absolutely. Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, but a government.
Besides, assassinations are hard to do with zero civilian casualties as well.
I also dislike the idea of carrying assassinations over into other relatively uninvolved states. I thought we all disapproved of Saudi's assassination of Khashoggi in Turkey? Or the Salisbury mess?
In both those cases the targets were civilians whose only crime had been to annoy their governments. I am not saying we should go around killing people out of hand. But Hamas are the declared enemies of Israel who are running an active campaign of terrorism against the country. I do think assassination is a justified tool under those circumstances. And of course Israel has history of this.
Hmmm, in the case of Salisbury, although Sergei Skirpal was a 'civilian', he was en ex-Russian and British double agent. Not exactly a 'standard' civilian. And that case also showed the fact that assassinations can be *really* messy, with one civilian being killed and several others poisoned. Likewise the Litvineno assassination.
Assassinations, especially outside your own country, are fraught. Remember that WW1 started with an assassination, albeit under different circumstances.
I also doubt any assassination scheme Israel came up with could ever hope to be speedy enough to permanently damage an organisation like Hamas. It might be part of the choice they make, but it won't work as the full choice.
If it could, they'd probably already have tried it...
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
"Excession" has dated: since it's basically a pastiche of USENET newsgroups, this is not surprising. Although some of its concepts do live on in my mind, with OCPs being the obvious one, but also the overoptimistic silly ship that tries to makes first contact. The latter always springs to mind when younger people try to get to grips with the harder end of politics and get the crap beaten out of them.
Plus, if I'm remembering the right spacecraft, there is a part of me that wants to go out like the Sleeper Service tried to. Foreshadowing? Well, hopefully I won't find out for some time...
"Player of Games" and "Use of Weapons" are classics and worth reading even if not a genre fan.
With his non-SF stuff, I remember "The Bridge" the best
I think all the non-SF (non-M) books up to "The Crow Road" are good.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
why are we developing something that will make life worse for many people?
Because the people doing it aren't "many people", they're rich tech bros who don't care about humans other than sources of profit.
Let's take Musk as an example. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He owns a satellite network. He turned it off to f*** up an attack by the Ukrainians. He moved one factory from California to Texas to avoid unionised labour, and he opened other factories in China because he could work them 24hrs a day. There are other rumours which I can't print here.
If he could make a massive profit by making life worse for everybody else, he'd do it.
And he's not the worst.
He aspires to be a Mind (hence Neuralink), and not 'meat'; the rest of us aren't really a concern.
Nah, that's excusing him. He's really not as bright as he (or his fanbois) make out. He's also not a very nice person.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
Were all those flattened tower blocks filled with Hamas fighters and human shields? If so, perhaps your definition of human shield is a little on the wide side. Mind you, the Americans did something similar when the folk back home got tired of seeing wedding parties blown up.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
The blame shifting by accusing the US seems a bit of a get out.
Likewise his threat to hit Israel IF Israel attacks Lebanon “pre-emptively”
That sounds more scared than belligerent. That aircraft carrier group in the eastern Med must weigh on their minds
Iran and Hezbollah were never in on this. Question is whether it was Hamas alone or Hamas captured by ISIS.
Agree about Iran. As for ISIS, I don't know but it's a very negative development that the Palestinian cause is now fused in the popular imagination with that sort of medieval Grand Guignol style Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
I'm pretty sure more civilians have been killed than in equivalent offensives in Ukraine, because as soon as Russia invaded most civilians fled the warzone for areas further West, or (as in Kherson) were immediately under Russian occupation before anyone knew what was happening. As in WW1 Ukraine and Russia are now fighting over wasteland abandoned by most humans. The only civilian deaths are of those caught by Russia's deep missile and drone strikes.
The tragic difference is that Gazans are trapped. There is nowhere to go.
No one really knows the numbers of civilian casualties in Ukraine. Mariupol, for example.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
Problem for the Palestinians is they have crapped in their nest everywhere theyve been.
Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.
On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
In the last few days Chile, Colombia, Bolivia, Jordan and Bahrain have all recalled their Ambassadors from Israel.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
Were all those flattened tower blocks filled with Hamas fighters and human shields? If so, perhaps your definition of human shield is a little on the wide side. Mind you, the Americans did something similar when the folk back home got tired of seeing wedding parties blown up.
Probably yes, or Hamas tunnels or other Hamas infrastructure, yes.
That's the problem when one party uses human shields. The Geneva Convention and customary International Humanitarian Law categorically says that it is the side that uses human shields that is committing the war crime - and that the other party has to stick to the rules of proportionality, but if the rules of proportionality are met then the human shields can be killed.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
What's the betting significant proportion of those on the million person march will have bought from the likes of Shein that uses cotton produced by Uyghurs under slavery conditions. Wouldn't be surprised if the material for the flags and banners made by them.
And of course lots are getting their one sided info about Israel / Palestine from TikTok.....
Foreign trolls stirring people up on social media? Who'd have thunk it? Well, everyone aside from those who denied a Russian interest in Brexit.
Britain’s oldest and most historic motorway service station faces demolition under plans to build a low-carbon replacement that can cope with electric vehicle drivers.
Watford Gap Services on the M1, which was Britain’s first service station when it opened in 1959, is to be demolished and rebuilt with more space for electric vehicles (EVs) to park while they charge.
The iconic services in Northamptonshire were known as the gateway to the North and once renowned as the meeting place for 1960s musicians such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd as they travelled between gigs.
Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
Now Roadchef, which runs both the northbound and southbound sites, wants to demolish the sprawling, mostly single-storey buildings and build new facilities including up to 150 EV charging points and a double-decker car park.
The development could also include an airport-style executive lounge for business travellers to check their emails and make calls while their vehicle is plugged in.
Mark Fox, Roadchef’s chief executive, said the Watford Gap was “past its sell-by date” and needed to be redeveloped.
However, Catherine Croft, director of the Twentieth Century Society, which campaigns to protect Britain’s iconic post-1914 buildings, said Watford Gap was a cultural and architectural icon whose demolition would be a great loss.
Ms Croft said: “Service stations like Watford Gap celebrated the glamour and sense of possibility that travel within the UK offered, and in most cases made innovative use of new materials, both robust concrete on the exteriors and new synthetic fabrics, carpets and curtains in vibrant colours indoors.”
1) I still don't know what BIB means. What does BIB mean? Does it mean 'Bring it Back'? That doesn't seem to make sense in this context.
Anyway:
2) I particularly enjoy the dryness of "Then, Watford Gap was even described as the “epicentre of cool” and a cultural landmark. Sir Cliff Richard was also a visitor."
3) I don't see why any notable 20th century buildings which might be there stand in the way of redeveloping for electric vehicle charging. But nor do I really see why it needs preservation. True, once upon a time these things did stand for modernism and optimism about the future*. But that's not really the case now, is it? There are service stations which look modern and optimistic about the future, and by and large they are the ones less than ten years old or which have been recently redeveloped e.g Gloucester, Tebay (a fortnight ago I heard a plummy home counties accent refer to the latter - apparently unironically - as "T'bay services").
*Have you ever come across this book:https://www.martinparrfoundation.org/product/boring-postcards/? It's quite marvellous. Nothing but boring postcards from the 50s and 60s - like motorway service stations. But the fact that someone thought these worthy of a postcard points to the sense of wonder that the future then held.
is what watford Gap looks like.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
I once ran into Jarvis Cocker in the gents toilet at Watford Gap services. Somehow it felt like the right kind of place for that to happen.
Two late results from yesterday. Buckinghamshire; LD 690,Con 593,Lab 371, Green 81. LD gain from Con Trafford; Lab 794, Con 284, Reform 82, Green 80, LD 36. Lab hold.
Hezbollah was the biggest threat to Israel. If they won’t intervene despite 10,000 dead Gazans then no one will. Israel now has carte blanche to do what it likes in Gaza
Although one hopes it's not a case of "right, gloves off now" when they've already killed almost as many civilians in 4 weeks as Russia has managed in 21 months in Ukraine.
And if you believe that, you'll believe anything.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
Fog of war, old chap. You may have missed that Israel withdrew its own video explanation of the hospital missile. However many have died, is Israel disputing it has killed more than Hamas?
Hamas are responsible for each and every Gazan that dies under their watch.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
That's sophistry. While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
Yes, it does.
So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
And that's (accurately) called begging the question.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
What's the betting significant proportion of those on the million person march will have bought from the likes of Shein that uses cotton produced by Uyghurs under slavery conditions. Wouldn't be surprised if the material for the flags and banners made by them.
And of course lots are getting their one sided info about Israel / Palestine from TikTok.....
Foreign trolls stirring people up on social media? Who'd have thunk it? Well, everyone aside from those who denied a Russian interest in Brexit.
Of course the Russians had an interest in Brexit, they'd have been completely behind encouraging those who refused to accept democracy and wanting a "second referendum" etc, because tearing people apart is what they want.
They don't want decisions made democratically then the results accepted.
Thankfully eventually we stopped playing the Russians game and just got it done.
If "All jobs will go" due to AI, then that makes the human race redundant, IMHO.
Did you ever read any of Bank's Culture novels? The human-like creatures in that effectively sat in the gap between pets and playthings of the Culture’s super-intelligences.
And it’s still a better fate that most people throughout history have received.
Musk actually cited the Banks Culture novels in the Sunak interview! He said “if you want to know what the future is like, read the Culture novels by Banks”
Damnit. I shall have to read them now. I like Banks but I’ve avoided all his books since Wasp Factory as he was such an annoying Scot Nat
His Sci-Fi is much, much better than his Iain Banks novels as a generality. Less weird and often very funny. I would recommend Player of Games, Excession and Use of Weapons.
Feersum Endjinn was my favourite. Sci-fi, but not Culture. The phonetic spelling takes some reading though.
A doddle if one has habitually read Doric or other regional Scots forms - not because it's in Scots, but it's the trick of relaxing and letting the sound flow through the mind's ear that does it.
Reading A Clockwork Orange is a bit like that. Burgess also wrote a couple of novels in Shakespearean English - Nothing Like The Sun, and A Dead Man In Deptford. Clever bloke.
Perhaps the most terrible combover in recorded history tho’.
It’s amazing how often - almost without fail - Arab/muslim nations abandon the Palestinians to their fate, despite much angry rhetoric and “days of rage” blah blah blah
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
They seem to care for them as much as they do the Uyghurs. Don't suppose anyone's planning a mass demo in London over their plight.
What's the betting significant proportion of those on the million person march will have bought from the likes of Shein that uses cotton produced by Uyghurs under slavery conditions. Wouldn't be surprised if the material for the flags and banners made by them.
And of course lots are getting their one sided info about Israel / Palestine from TikTok.....
Foreign trolls stirring people up on social media? Who'd have thunk it? Well, everyone aside from those who denied a Russian interest in Brexit.
Of course the Russians had an interest in Brexit, they'd have been completely behind encouraging those who refused to accept democracy and wanting a "second referendum" etc, because tearing people apart is what they want.
They don't want decisions made democratically then the results accepted.
Thankfully eventually we stopped playing the Russians game and just got it done.
If you keep typing long enough you might eventually convince yourself.
Comments
A lot (I mean a lot) of rhetoric and that's your lot.
But who knows. We may only be 1 hour into a 19 hour speech
I look forward to someone putting forward the thesis that the wise and foresightful aegis of HMG has simultaneously looked after Scotland while crapping all over the NE.
I'll certainly believe the second part.
Verstappen confident he won’t need to support Perez’s bid to beat Hamilton
https://www.racefans.net/2023/11/03/verstappen-confident-he-wont-need-to-support-perezs-bid-to-beat-hamilton/
Let's take Musk as an example. Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He owns a satellite network. He turned it off to f*** up an attack by the Ukrainians. He moved one factory from California to Texas to avoid unionised labour, and he opened other factories in China because he could work them 24hrs a day. There are other rumours which I can't print here.
If he could make a massive profit by making life worse for everybody else, he'd do it.
And he's not the worst.
I hope he gets sodomised senseless by a horny honey badger.
It's way too small, the car park is tiny and you only stop there if playing the game of find the stupidest item WH Smiths is selling at the moment..
What is curious is the need to provide a means of making more money from people being forced to sit for an hour as their car is recharged...
Likewise his threat to hit Israel IF Israel attacks Lebanon “pre-emptively”
That sounds more scared than belligerent. That aircraft carrier group in the eastern Med must weigh on their minds
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/governor/2023/mississippi/
LAB: 45% (+1)
CON: 23% (-1)
LDM: 10% (-2)
RFM: 8% (+2)
GRN: 7% (+1)
SNP: 4% (=)
Techne UK
LAB: 46% (-)
CON: 26% (+1)
LDEM: 11% (-)
REF: 6% (-1)
GRN: 6% (+1)
YouGov
Lab 44%
Con 23%
LD 9%
Green 9%
Reform 9%"
This is one of the better campaign ads that I've seen, performing that pivot.
https://twitter.com/MarcusforAR/status/1720074585629204888
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#National_poll_results
Tebay is the best by miles, with an honorary mention to Gloucester too.
They should adopt it.
But when a Gazan Jihadi-launched missile failure becomes "Israel killed 500 civilians" then its easy to add up huge numbers for "civilians" that Israel has "killed".
More like 20 min for most charging stops.
Nothing Like The Sun, and A Dead Man In Deptford. Clever bloke.
There is a similar facility in Gloucester but it is always rammed. Probably because the service stations either side arent up to much
If I was a poor Gazan cowering in some bombed-out refugee “camp” I’d hate Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria - and Hezbollah - almost as much as I’d hate Israel
Our unelected PM Rishi Sunak could spend a month on Grindr and he still wouldn’t be able to find a mandate.
That's what happens when a side uses human shields. The law, and ethics, is that it is the one that puts civilians in harms way that is responsible, not the ones who pull the trigger because they have to, in order to fight the war.
It wouldn't surprise me if this ends with more Gazan civilian deaths than Ukrainian deaths, that would be entirely logical. Afterall, Ukraine has done everything it can to get civilians out of harms way, whereas Hamas use humans as human shields in violation of the Geneva Convention and the rules of war.
I'd be shocked if we're there yet. And if Russia were to start using its own civilians as human shields, I'd still support Ukraine's right to fightback against Russia just as much as Israel has every right to fightback against Hamas.
The tragic difference is that Gazans are trapped. There is nowhere to go.
But to be serious, if it had gone the other way and they'd said they were mobilising that would have been a shock and a sign that various people's geopolitical calculus had malfunctioned.
Those figures are unsubstantiated bullshit, and any casualties of war are not murdered.
They're dead, yes, and that's tragic and its Hamas' fault, but they're not murdered.
Pretty useless in the event of nuclear armageddon anyway, but needs must.
Their standard MO has been to move to Israel's neighbours set up their own private armies, then start to lord it over the locals and kick off a civil war. Nobody really wants that. Then chuck in that they feel the arab world owes them and they wont let them forget it and its nothing but problems.
On the other hand I was surprised by Chile cutting off relations with Israel. Turns out Chile has one of the largest palestinian populations outside Palestine. Mostly Christians from about a century ago,
And of course lots are getting their one sided info about Israel / Palestine from TikTok.....
While it's true Hamas are responsible, that doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions.
So long as they're sticking to the rules of proportionality, it absolutely and categorically does.
Assassinations, especially outside your own country, are fraught. Remember that WW1 started with an assassination, albeit under different circumstances.
I also doubt any assassination scheme Israel came up with could ever hope to be speedy enough to permanently damage an organisation like Hamas. It might be part of the choice they make, but it won't work as the full choice.
If it could, they'd probably already have tried it...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-antisemitism-on-x-twitter-jewish-leaders/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/11/opinion/elon-musk-adl.html
Mariupol, for example.
That's the problem when one party uses human shields. The Geneva Convention and customary International Humanitarian Law categorically says that it is the side that uses human shields that is committing the war crime - and that the other party has to stick to the rules of proportionality, but if the rules of proportionality are met then the human shields can be killed.
Buckinghamshire; LD 690,Con 593,Lab 371, Green 81. LD gain from Con
Trafford; Lab 794, Con 284, Reform 82, Green 80, LD 36. Lab hold.
Let them fight it out. Enough
They don't want decisions made democratically then the results accepted.
Thankfully eventually we stopped playing the Russians game and just got it done.