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The city of Gaza was where I first met my wife – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited October 2023 in General
imageThe city of Gaza was where I first met my wife – politicalbetting.com

With Israel and Gaza totally dominating the news agenda it prompts my own personal memories of the area particularly because it was in Gaza City that I first met my wife, Jacky.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,662
    This is a sweet story, Mike. I'm glad something good came out of this horrible, intractable conflict.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    A lovely story Mike. Hope you are well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Touching
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238
    Observer/Survation/38degrees MRP klaxon:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/07/poll-predicts-landslide-labour-election-victory-with-12-cabinet-ministers-losing-their-seats

    "Labour would win 420 seats – equating to a landslide 190-seat majority. The Tories would take just 149 seats and the Lib Dems 23.

    "Deputy prime minister Oliver Dowden, defence secretary Grant Shapps and leadership contender Penny Mordaunt are among those facing for defeat."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    The videos are appalling, and they keep coming

    The pressure on Netanyahu from his hard right, to do something TERMINAL, will be intense. Can Israel allow Gaza to survive if iGazan militants can simply wander over the frontier and slaughter Israelis in their beds, or kidnap women and children to be tortured in Gaza?

    No, it can't. And, in fact, I am not sure any country could tolerate this. Plus, Netanyahu has been deeply humiiated by this dreadful intel failure. No way this is a false flag, it's a disaster for the Israeli military

    We must brace for something pretty apocalyptic in response
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    FPT MexicanPete: "suspect tidal power is too "woke" for the current iteration of your party."

    Actually, it is one thing they get enthusiastic about - can't understand why we haven't been doing it for decades.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Nice story Mike of a different time. If any of my kids had wanted to go to Gaza as students I think I would have had heart failure. Of course, they didn't. Several parts of the world are now just too dangerous, even for adventurous types. The available world is getting smaller.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    DavidL said:

    Nice story Mike of a different time. If any of my kids had wanted to go to Gaza as students I think I would have had heart failure. Of course, they didn't. Several parts of the world are now just too dangerous, even for adventurous types. The available world is getting smaller.

    I've traveled quite extensively in the West Bank. I doubt I could do that now
  • Sky News coverage is weirdly sanitised. I am not suggesting they should be showing graphic murders (apparently there are loads of internet videos), but it doesn't give any real picture of the situation. It looks like some blokes on motorbikes just rode across the border and took selfies, and that was about it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    Lovely story Mike.

    And a fantastic example of synchronicity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited October 2023

    Sky News coverage is weirdly sanitised. I am not suggesting they should be showing graphic murders (apparently there are loads of internet videos), but it doesn't give any real picture of the situation. It looks like some blokes on motorbikes just rode across the border and took selfies, and that was about it.

    Yes, it's pathetic. It's a war, people are dying, you don't make it "better" by not showing any of it. Besides, it is all online

    Show it, but give a serious warning beforehand, allowing people to look away/switch off

    Also, if you don't see the videos, you will not understand why the Israeli response is so ferocious (and it will be ferocious). The video of the Hamas militants parading the half naked, mutilated body of the female Israeli soldier, as they shout and cheer "Allahu Akhbar" is particularly intense

    Who shouts "God is great" over the sexually desecrated body of a tortured woman? That is a level of depravity it is hard to comprehend
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    Leon said:

    The videos are appalling, and they keep coming

    The pressure on Netanyahu from his hard right, to do something TERMINAL, will be intense. Can Israel allow Gaza to survive if iGazan militants can simply wander over the frontier and slaughter Israelis in their beds, or kidnap women and children to be tortured in Gaza?

    No, it can't. And, in fact, I am not sure any country could tolerate this. Plus, Netanyahu has been deeply humiiated by this dreadful intel failure. No way this is a false flag, it's a disaster for the Israeli military

    We must brace for something pretty apocalyptic in response

    The absolute last thing the world needs now.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    Oz Katerji
    @OzKaterji
    Trying to link Hamas to Russia is a pretty desperate manoeuvre, especially considering how warm relations are between Netanyahu and Putin. Don’t take those takes seriously.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    SA surely looking over 400 here. Brutal batting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Sky News coverage is weirdly sanitised. I am not suggesting they should be showing graphic murders (apparently there are loads of internet videos), but it doesn't give any real picture of the situation. It looks like some blokes on motorbikes just rode across the border and took selfies, and that was about it.

    Yes, it's pathetic. It's a war, people are dying, you don't make it "better" by not showing any of it. Besides, it is all online

    Show it, but give a serious warning beforehand, allowing people to look away/switch off

    Also, if you don't see the videos, you will not understand why the Israeli response is so ferocious (and it will be ferocious). The video of the Hamas militants parading the half naked, mutilated body of the female Israeli soldier, as they shout and cheer "Allahu Akhbar" is particularly intense

    Who shouts "God is great" over the sexually desecrated body of a tortured woman? That is a level of depravity it is hard to comprehend
    If they don't want to show murder and torture, even showing the videos of the Israelis fleeing in panic across the sands gives a better "flavour" of the reality. Instead they keep showing some little girl on the shoulders of a bloke, while see waves around a gun in celebration, like its about who won a football match.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,662

    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    The Tory Party: why we can't have nice things.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Having cameramen to film everything is ISIS tactics. Propagandise the fear and the "winning".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    Sky News coverage is weirdly sanitised. I am not suggesting they should be showing graphic murders (apparently there are loads of internet videos), but it doesn't give any real picture of the situation. It looks like some blokes on motorbikes just rode across the border and took selfies, and that was about it.

    Yes, it's pathetic. It's a war, people are dying, you don't make it "better" by not showing any of it. Besides, it is all online

    Show it, but give a serious warning beforehand, allowing people to look away/switch off

    Also, if you don't see the videos, you will not understand why the Israeli response is so ferocious (and it will be ferocious). The video of the Hamas militants parading the half naked, mutilated body of the female Israeli soldier, as they shout and cheer "Allahu Akhbar" is particularly intense

    Who shouts "God is great" over the sexually desecrated body of a tortured woman? That is a level of depravity it is hard to comprehend
    If they don't want to show murder and torture, even showing the videos of the Israelis fleeing in panic across the sands gives a better "flavour" of the reality. Instead they keep showing some little girl on the shoulders of a bloke, while see waves around a gun in celebration, like its about who won a football match.
    It is pitiful timidity, and it is why people desert broadcast media and turn to the Net/X/Telegram, etc, so it is self-defeating
  • That's a very sweet and touching story Mike.

    Hopefully one day Israel can have the peace and security it so richly deserved and that it's neighbours and other antisemitic bastards have denied it for far too long.
  • Very happy and uplifting personal history from OGH!
  • FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time.

    Denialists should be put in the women have penises category.

    Ever had a look atg the embryonic development of the hominine genitalia? It might surprise you.

    As for 'eating meat since the dawn of time', that's a bit like saying chimps eat meat - but also a great deal of plant material. An omnivore does not an obligate carnivore make.
    Indeed.

    Every balanced meal has some meat, some veg etc

    Its not purely one of the other.
    Every meal? That's the problem right there.

    If you put meat in every meal (or even every day), it adds up to more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history.


    Not every meal, every balanced meal. Some times for breakfast I'll have just a quick bowl of cereal rather than a more balanced meal with eg eggs and bacon. Just a bowl of cereal and milk is not a balanced meal, I know that, but over the course of the day will aim to eat balanced and I will absolutely aim to include to eat meat in my evening meal at the very least.

    Why should we as a race not seek to eat more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history? That's part of economic development and productivity to be able to access healthier, balanced diets including some meat, some vegetables etc on a daily basis.

    Meat shouldn't just be a preserve for the wealthy, it should be a staple and affordable option for everyone whenever they want it too.

    Climate science needs to make this possible while keeping the environment healthy too. Not impoverish people or worsen their diets.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,855
    FPT:

    Why does each day seem to bring more and more depressing news

    Almost reluctant to put on the news these days and just look to the family and our garden

    I think that, in general, it's important to be an informed citizen, and to know about what is going on. But you do sometimes need to take a break from the awfulness of it all.
    24hr news then social media has made it seem the world is a lot worse than ever before, when in reality it isn't, as negative news is what gets clicks.

    Steven Pinker's book, Enlightenment Now, was very good on this.
    The big difference is that 30+ years ago when something awful happened in some far away place you might see about 100 words from a foreign correspondent in the inside pages of broadsheet newspaper. "Attack in Peru. Hundreds feared dead." No pictures, no elaboration, and rarely any follow-up.

    In 2023 we can see everything happening from anywhere in the world shortly after and sometimes even as it is occurring.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    DavidL said:

    Nice story Mike of a different time. If any of my kids had wanted to go to Gaza as students I think I would have had heart failure. Of course, they didn't. Several parts of the world are now just too dangerous, even for adventurous types. The available world is getting smaller.

    Though bigger too. Places like Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos were off limits once, as were Algeria, Colombia, even China when I was young. All on the tourist trail now.

    I missed out on Kashmir in 1990 when the troubles blew up, and wished that I had got there a year earlier.

    What Hamas are up to is barbaric, but the history of mutual atrocity in Israel and Palestine has shown that no atrocity is too brutal. No doubt the Israeli revenge will be taken on women and civilians too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time.

    Denialists should be put in the women have penises category.

    Ever had a look atg the embryonic development of the hominine genitalia? It might surprise you.

    As for 'eating meat since the dawn of time', that's a bit like saying chimps eat meat - but also a great deal of plant material. An omnivore does not an obligate carnivore make.
    Indeed.

    Every balanced meal has some meat, some veg etc

    Its not purely one of the other.
    Every meal? That's the problem right there.

    If you put meat in every meal (or even every day), it adds up to more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history.


    Not every meal, every balanced meal. Some times for breakfast I'll have just a quick bowl of cereal rather than a more balanced meal with eg eggs and bacon. Just a bowl of cereal and milk is not a balanced meal, I know that, but over the course of the day will aim to eat balanced and I will absolutely aim to include to eat meat in my evening meal at the very least.

    Why should we as a race not seek to eat more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history? That's part of economic development and productivity to be able to access healthier, balanced diets including some meat, some vegetables etc on a daily basis.

    Meat shouldn't just be a preserve for the wealthy, it should be a staple and affordable option for everyone whenever they want it too.

    Climate science needs to make this possible while keeping the environment healthy too. Not impoverish people or worsen their diets.
    Yes, but eating less meat improves people's diets, particularly if replaced by vegetables. It is not impoverishment or worsening to do so.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    "Celebrations erupt among Palestinians and other asylum seekers in Greek refugee camps after Hamas attacked Israel this morning."

    https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1710625666809651222?s=20

    Hmm. Maybe thats a big NO in terms of asylum?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670
    Beeb :

    Islamic Jihad group claims capture of Israeli soldiers

    Graeme Baker

    Live reporter

    Islamic Jihad, which operates in Gaza, claims its fighters have also captured "many" Israeli soldiers. In a post on Telegram, a spokesman calling himself Abu Hamza states:

    "We confirm in the al-Quds Brigades that now, thanks to God, we possess many Zionist soldiers who are prisoners in our hands”
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,699
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time.

    Denialists should be put in the women have penises category.

    Ever had a look atg the embryonic development of the hominine genitalia? It might surprise you.

    As for 'eating meat since the dawn of time', that's a bit like saying chimps eat meat - but also a great deal of plant material. An omnivore does not an obligate carnivore make.
    Indeed.

    Every balanced meal has some meat, some veg etc

    Its not purely one of the other.
    Every meal? That's the problem right there.

    If you put meat in every meal (or even every day), it adds up to more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history.


    Not every meal, every balanced meal. Some times for breakfast I'll have just a quick bowl of cereal rather than a more balanced meal with eg eggs and bacon. Just a bowl of cereal and milk is not a balanced meal, I know that, but over the course of the day will aim to eat balanced and I will absolutely aim to include to eat meat in my evening meal at the very least.

    Why should we as a race not seek to eat more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history? That's part of economic development and productivity to be able to access healthier, balanced diets including some meat, some vegetables etc on a daily basis.

    Meat shouldn't just be a preserve for the wealthy, it should be a staple and affordable option for everyone whenever they want it too.

    Climate science needs to make this possible while keeping the environment healthy too. Not impoverish people or worsen their diets.
    Yes, but eating less meat improves people's diets, particularly if replaced by vegetables. It is not impoverishment or worsening to do so.
    Eating less sugary, carb based processed crap and eating more meat improves people's diets too.

    Eating vegetables with a side of vegetables or chips with a side of vegetables isn't balanced. Eating meat with a side of vegetables is more balanced.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,939
    edited October 2023

    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    That’s similar to my train to Bristol this morning - from Sheffield (8:30am) onward it was standing room only

    Don’t need to worry on the way back as I’m driving back
  • Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646

    Observer/Survation/38degrees MRP klaxon:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/07/poll-predicts-landslide-labour-election-victory-with-12-cabinet-ministers-losing-their-seats

    "Labour would win 420 seats – equating to a landslide 190-seat majority. The Tories would take just 149 seats and the Lib Dems 23.

    "Deputy prime minister Oliver Dowden, defence secretary Grant Shapps and leadership contender Penny Mordaunt are among those facing for defeat."

    I am going to hate betting on UKGE24. Either the polls are right (and the odds will be pitiful) or the polls are badly wrong (in which case betting on them is dangerous). Either way, the potential for a decent profit is slim. :(
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122
    I was out walking listening to the radio at midday waiting for 5Live Sport to begin at midday but they were talking about Israel. And I couldn’t understand why as it didn’t seem like a big deal earlier.

    Now I’ve come on here I know exactly why they’re talking about it but they didn’t once explain what was actually happening.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
  • SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So should we build a new road if a bus is full at rush hour ?

    The nature of pretty much any organisation is that the level of demand for its output varies.

    At times demand might exceed capacity but that doesn't make it worthwhile to increase that capacity permanently at an excessive economic and environmental cost.

    Especially when there is an opportunity cost of not spending the required money elsewhere on more important things.
  • Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    You would say that wouldn't you.

    Hamas fit squarely in an Iranian/Russian/Hamas axis of evil.

    Which unlike Dubyas use of the term the three are all allies that are sending weapons to each other, not arch-enemies like Iran, Iraq.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Might this affect the POTUS elex?

    Biden is perceived as elderly and frail and a touch weak on Iran, so it could play against him. But Trump is seen as a mad dog, so the desire for stability might play against HIM

    Hard to call
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,006
    "Opinion / Indigenous Affairs

    It’s time to end the myth that there could have been a different, better referendum
    Stop pretending there could have been a different, more successful referendum campaign. The racists and opportunists were always lying in wait.

    BERNARD KEANE
    OCT 06, 2023"

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/10/06/indigenous-voice-parliament-referendum-myth-albanese-dutton/
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Why the sarcasm? With Netanyahu as global pariah, do you think this isn't the optimal moment for Hamas to strike?
  • SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So should we build a new road if a bus is full at rush hour ?

    The nature of pretty much any organisation is that the level of demand for its output varies.

    At times demand might exceed capacity but that doesn't make it worthwhile to increase that capacity permanently at an excessive economic and environmental cost.

    Especially when there is an opportunity cost of not spending the required money elsewhere on more important things.
    We should build a new road if the road is full at rush hour, yes.

    Which can also be a road going to alternative routes so taking traffic away from the overcrowded destinations.

    The weird thing with HS2 is it wasn't trying to do that. It was only going to destinations already on the pre existing route, not creating alternative routes to alternative destinations.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    Leon said:

    "Celebrations erupt among Palestinians and other asylum seekers in Greek refugee camps after Hamas attacked Israel this morning."

    https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1710625666809651222?s=20

    Hmm. Maybe thats a big NO in terms of asylum?

    Far more likely that Israeli attacks on Gaza will create a fresh wave of refugees, and the cycle continues.
  • SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So should we build a new road if a bus is full at rush hour ?

    The nature of pretty much any organisation is that the level of demand for its output varies.

    At times demand might exceed capacity but that doesn't make it worthwhile to increase that capacity permanently at an excessive economic and environmental cost.

    Especially when there is an opportunity cost of not spending the required money elsewhere on more important things.
    We should build a new road if the road is full at rush hour, yes.

    Which can also be a road going to alternative routes so taking traffic away from the overcrowded destinations.

    The weird thing with HS2 is it wasn't trying to do that. It was only going to destinations already on the pre existing route, not creating alternative routes to alternative destinations.
    Building new roads gives the advantage of opening up land for development.

    A road between X and Y doesn't just benefit X and Y but allows the building of housing, business parks, industrial estates and leisure facilities all along its route.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Hamas has certainly surprised and it is a major intelligence and military failure by the IDF.

    There will be plenty of sympathy for Israeli civilians though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Why the sarcasm? With Netanyahu as global pariah, do you think this isn't the optimal moment for Hamas to strike?
    There's so much oddness to unpack in your position I don't know where to start

    Why is this the optimal moment for Hamas? What's the aim? Whats the middlegame and endgame? When Israel strikes back with Biblical force, how do they gain? i guess they hope Israel goes so far sympathy shifts to Palestine, but that has happened before, with zero impact on the ground

    Also this really is not the optimum moment of weakness for Netanyahu. He's a pretty despicable character but he's quite good at realpolitik. He has maintained relations with Putin and normalised relations with the UAE and Saudi. Arguably Israel is stronger than it has been for many years

    Indeed, THAT might be the reason Hamas has done this. A last desperate gamble as Israel secures its future? An act of urgent need - not cool cunning
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
  • Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    You would say that wouldn't you.

    Hamas fit squarely in an Iranian/Russian/Hamas axis of evil.

    Which unlike Dubyas use of the term the three are all allies that are sending weapons to each other, not arch-enemies like Iran, Iraq.
    What brought on this rant? Because I was less than complementary about the reputation of Netanyahu? I'm describing the world as it is, not how you'd like it to be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
    lol. I only said "Er, OK"

    Bit harsh
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    edited October 2023
    Markram 102 from only 49 balls! A new record for World Cups and the third century of the innings.
  • SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So should we build a new road if a bus is full at rush hour ?

    The nature of pretty much any organisation is that the level of demand for its output varies.

    At times demand might exceed capacity but that doesn't make it worthwhile to increase that capacity permanently at an excessive economic and environmental cost.

    Especially when there is an opportunity cost of not spending the required money elsewhere on more important things.
    We should build a new road if the road is full at rush hour, yes.

    Which can also be a road going to alternative routes so taking traffic away from the overcrowded destinations.

    The weird thing with HS2 is it wasn't trying to do that. It was only going to destinations already on the pre existing route, not creating alternative routes to alternative destinations.
    Building new roads gives the advantage of opening up land for development.

    A road between X and Y doesn't just benefit X and Y but allows the building of housing, business parks, industrial estates and leisure facilities all along its route.
    Exactly.

    Which is why the NIMBY scum combine with the fake environmentalists to object. Because developing land and allowing much needed housing, investment in businesses and industry etc doesn't suit their agenda.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Why the sarcasm? With Netanyahu as global pariah, do you think this isn't the optimal moment for Hamas to strike?
    There's so much oddness to unpack in your position I don't know where to start

    Why is this the optimal moment for Hamas? What's the aim? Whats the middlegame and endgame? When Israel strikes back with Biblical force, how do they gain? i guess they hope Israel goes so far sympathy shifts to Palestine, but that has happened before, with zero impact on the ground

    Also this really is not the optimum moment of weakness for Netanyahu. He's a pretty despicable character but he's quite good at realpolitik. He has maintained relations with Putin and normalised relations with the UAE and Saudi. Arguably Israel is stronger than it has been for many years

    Indeed, THAT might be the reason Hamas has done this. A last desperate gamble as Israel secures its future? An act of urgent need - not cool cunning
    Biblical force would equate to using nuclear weapons - the Bible having many examples of mass annihilation.

    Killing a few thousand in retaliation is merely the usual dreary retaliation.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,779
    eek said:

    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    That’s similar to my train to Bristol this morning - from Sheffield (8:30am) onward it was standing room only

    Don’t need to worry on the way back as I’m driving back
    This is the reality of weekend travel. People want to travel but the trains are often shorter than the weekday capacity and surprisingly they quickly get overcrowded. East MIdlands Railways put a 5-coach train on the route to Leicester and Sheffield and it was rammed - a 10-coach train would have been busy but would have had the capacity - dreadful short-sighted thinking from the train operators.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
    I think you may have clicked reply on the wrong post, it was Stark that posted the disgraceful message that Hamas in assaulting innocent civilians had "played a blinder here" and "hold all the cards".

    Simply responding with "Er, ok" to that showed uncharacteristic restraint from Leon. 👍
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
    lol. I only said "Er, OK"

    Bit harsh
    I didn't mean your comment, I meant the one you had responded to. Sorry, should have made that clearer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    THIS is quite something

    Highly impressive social media from Hamas. Slick, clever, scary (there is no gore but there is the sound of gunfire at the end)

    "Hamas Al-Qassam Brigades has released a video showing its fighters paragliding from Gaza over Israeli settlements.
    #Hamas #TelAviv #AlAqsaFlood #Jerusalem #GazaUnderAttack #Gaza #حماس #طوفان_القدس #طوفان_الأقصى #اسرائیل #فلسطين"


    https://x.com/Ali707khan/status/1710631741344625109?s=20

    it reminds me of ISIS at their "best" (can't think of a better word)

    How does Israel permanently end a threat like this? The Palestinian/Israeli struggle is entering an entirely new stage
  • DavidL said:

    Markram 102 from only 49 balls! A new record for World Cups and the third century of the innings.

    Slogathons follow the law of diminishing returns.

    Cricket needs to be a fair contest of bowler and against batsman.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
    lol. I only said "Er, OK"

    Bit harsh
    I didn't mean your comment, I meant the one you had responded to. Sorry, should have made that clearer.
    No worries. I figured that was the case!
  • SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So put more carriages on each train. This has been a problem on the East Midlands cross country lines for years. They reduced the numbers of carriages from 4 to 2 or sometimes even 1 and it is so bad that at times people can't actually get on the train.

    Rail capacity is not the big issue. Train capacity is.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320

    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time.

    Denialists should be put in the women have penises category.

    Ever had a look atg the embryonic development of the hominine genitalia? It might surprise you.

    As for 'eating meat since the dawn of time', that's a bit like saying chimps eat meat - but also a great deal of plant material. An omnivore does not an obligate carnivore make.
    Indeed.

    Every balanced meal has some meat, some veg etc

    Its not purely one of the other.
    Every meal? That's the problem right there.

    If you put meat in every meal (or even every day), it adds up to more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history.


    Not every meal, every balanced meal. Some times for breakfast I'll have just a quick bowl of cereal rather than a more balanced meal with eg eggs and bacon. Just a bowl of cereal and milk is not a balanced meal, I know that, but over the course of the day will aim to eat balanced and I will absolutely aim to include to eat meat in my evening meal at the very least.

    Why should we as a race not seek to eat more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history? That's part of economic development and productivity to be able to access healthier, balanced diets including some meat, some vegetables etc on a daily basis.

    Meat shouldn't just be a preserve for the wealthy, it should be a staple and affordable option for everyone whenever they want it too.

    Climate science needs to make this possible while keeping the environment healthy too. Not impoverish people or worsen their diets.
    Yes, but eating less meat improves people's diets, particularly if replaced by vegetables. It is not impoverishment or worsening to do so.
    Eating less sugary, carb based processed crap and eating more meat improves people's diets too.

    Eating vegetables with a side of vegetables or chips with a side of vegetables isn't balanced. Eating meat with a side of vegetables is more balanced.
    One wonders how the population of Southern India has survived all this time.
  • Farooq said:

    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    So should we build a new road if a bus is full at rush hour ?

    The nature of pretty much any organisation is that the level of demand for its output varies.

    At times demand might exceed capacity but that doesn't make it worthwhile to increase that capacity permanently at an excessive economic and environmental cost.

    Especially when there is an opportunity cost of not spending the required money elsewhere on more important things.
    We should build a new road if the road is full at rush hour, yes.

    Which can also be a road going to alternative routes so taking traffic away from the overcrowded destinations.

    The weird thing with HS2 is it wasn't trying to do that. It was only going to destinations already on the pre existing route, not creating alternative routes to alternative destinations.
    A full bus isn't a full road. Just put an extra bus into the timetable.
    Which is why I said if there's a full road, not a full bus. Same for trains.

    A full train may mean just put on another train. If you can't put on another train then a new track might be needed.

    As I said to you the other day though, widening pre existing routes like widening pre existing motorways is the absolutely worse form of investment. Same for HS2 it shows the same failed Treasury mentality of only investing where there is already infrastructure.

    Development happens by providing infrastructure where it is missing. Linking places that are currently unlinked.

    If there's to be investment in either roads or rails (and there should be both) it should primarily be about building connections where they're lacking, not widening or expanding capacity where it already exists but is full at rush hour only.

    A new route can be used all day every day. Extra capacity is only used at rush hour.
  • Leon said:

    THIS is quite something

    Highly impressive social media from Hamas. Slick, clever, scary (there is no gore but there is the sound of gunfire at the end)

    "Hamas Al-Qassam Brigades has released a video showing its fighters paragliding from Gaza over Israeli settlements.
    #Hamas #TelAviv #AlAqsaFlood #Jerusalem #GazaUnderAttack #Gaza #حماس #طوفان_القدس #طوفان_الأقصى #اسرائیل #فلسطين"


    https://x.com/Ali707khan/status/1710631741344625109?s=20

    it reminds me of ISIS at their "best" (can't think of a better word)

    How does Israel permanently end a threat like this? The Palestinian/Israeli struggle is entering an entirely new stage

    I remember you getting overly excited about the propaganda efforts of ISIS.

    It mattered not at all when the military reality changed.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,652
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Well, not really. How can anyone with any sensibility glory in this brutal slaughter of civilians and others? Hell, I wish Russia nothing but misery in Ukraine but take no pleasure whatsoever from the videos of Russians being killed with superior technology.

    Really the sort of comment you might want to reflect on.
    lol. I only said "Er, OK"

    Bit harsh
    I think he was referring to my previous remark. Bit odd though. To claim my stating that Netanyahu has ruined Israel's reputation in the eyes of the world is 'glory[ing] in this brutal slaughter of civilians' is patently ridiculous.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320
    Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    Isn't that what they've been trying to do for some decades?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122

    SymeonBrown
    @symeonbrown
    ·
    2h
    This week the PM cancelled the HS2 from London to Manchester that would reduce overcrowding. Today I’m on a train for Manchester with the driver refusing to depart as “it’s unsafe” due to overcapacity. “The trains going nowhere until passengers leave” he says.

    https://twitter.com/symeonbrown/status/1710587426681315407

    There’s significant disruption on the West Coast Main Line today:

    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:EUS/to/gb-nr:MAN/2023-10-07/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response

    It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?

    Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
    Er, OK
    Why the sarcasm? With Netanyahu as global pariah, do you think this isn't the optimal moment for Hamas to strike?
    There's so much oddness to unpack in your position I don't know where to start

    Why is this the optimal moment for Hamas? What's the aim? Whats the middlegame and endgame? When Israel strikes back with Biblical force, how do they gain? i guess they hope Israel goes so far sympathy shifts to Palestine, but that has happened before, with zero impact on the ground

    Also this really is not the optimum moment of weakness for Netanyahu. He's a pretty despicable character but he's quite good at realpolitik. He has maintained relations with Putin and normalised relations with the UAE and Saudi. Arguably Israel is stronger than it has been for many years

    Indeed, THAT might be the reason Hamas has done this. A last desperate gamble as Israel secures its future? An act of urgent need - not cool cunning
    Biblical force would equate to using nuclear weapons - the Bible having many examples of mass annihilation.

    Killing a few thousand in retaliation is merely the usual dreary retaliation.
    "Oh, yes. The Bible speaks of the Ark leveling mountains and laying waste to entire regions. An army which carries the Ark before it... is invincible."

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    THIS is quite something

    Highly impressive social media from Hamas. Slick, clever, scary (there is no gore but there is the sound of gunfire at the end)

    "Hamas Al-Qassam Brigades has released a video showing its fighters paragliding from Gaza over Israeli settlements.
    #Hamas #TelAviv #AlAqsaFlood #Jerusalem #GazaUnderAttack #Gaza #حماس #طوفان_القدس #طوفان_الأقصى #اسرائیل #فلسطين"


    https://x.com/Ali707khan/status/1710631741344625109?s=20

    it reminds me of ISIS at their "best" (can't think of a better word)

    How does Israel permanently end a threat like this? The Palestinian/Israeli struggle is entering an entirely new stage

    I remember you getting overly excited about the propaganda efforts of ISIS.

    It mattered not at all when the military reality changed.
    I always get overly excited about EVERYTHING

    However this is a notable development

    1. The sophistication of the video, the production values, the slickness - this matters. ISIS boomed BECAUSE they were good at this stuff, and recruited people from all over. Like Shamima Begum

    2. It shows a level of cleverness in the attack. Paragliders with vehicles, cruising over the wall, landing in ISraeli settlements and massacring everyone? That will scare Israelis everywhere, and that will have military and political consequences, probably not good ones for Gazans
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,934
    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    THIS is quite something

    Highly impressive social media from Hamas. Slick, clever, scary (there is no gore but there is the sound of gunfire at the end)

    "Hamas Al-Qassam Brigades has released a video showing its fighters paragliding from Gaza over Israeli settlements.
    #Hamas #TelAviv #AlAqsaFlood #Jerusalem #GazaUnderAttack #Gaza #حماس #طوفان_القدس #طوفان_الأقصى #اسرائیل #فلسطين"


    https://x.com/Ali707khan/status/1710631741344625109?s=20

    it reminds me of ISIS at their "best" (can't think of a better word)

    How does Israel permanently end a threat like this? The Palestinian/Israeli struggle is entering an entirely new stage

    I remember you getting overly excited about the propaganda efforts of ISIS.

    It mattered not at all when the military reality changed.
    I always get overly excited about EVERYTHING
    Really? We'd never noticed.
  • dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Humans have been eating meat since the dawn of time.

    Denialists should be put in the women have penises category.

    Ever had a look atg the embryonic development of the hominine genitalia? It might surprise you.

    As for 'eating meat since the dawn of time', that's a bit like saying chimps eat meat - but also a great deal of plant material. An omnivore does not an obligate carnivore make.
    Indeed.

    Every balanced meal has some meat, some veg etc

    Its not purely one of the other.
    Every meal? That's the problem right there.

    If you put meat in every meal (or even every day), it adds up to more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history.


    Not every meal, every balanced meal. Some times for breakfast I'll have just a quick bowl of cereal rather than a more balanced meal with eg eggs and bacon. Just a bowl of cereal and milk is not a balanced meal, I know that, but over the course of the day will aim to eat balanced and I will absolutely aim to include to eat meat in my evening meal at the very least.

    Why should we as a race not seek to eat more meat than humans have mostly eaten through history? That's part of economic development and productivity to be able to access healthier, balanced diets including some meat, some vegetables etc on a daily basis.

    Meat shouldn't just be a preserve for the wealthy, it should be a staple and affordable option for everyone whenever they want it too.

    Climate science needs to make this possible while keeping the environment healthy too. Not impoverish people or worsen their diets.
    Yes, but eating less meat improves people's diets, particularly if replaced by vegetables. It is not impoverishment or worsening to do so.
    Eating less sugary, carb based processed crap and eating more meat improves people's diets too.

    Eating vegetables with a side of vegetables or chips with a side of vegetables isn't balanced. Eating meat with a side of vegetables is more balanced.
    One wonders how the population of Southern India has survived all this time.
    In poverty with poor life expectancy primarily.

    What's your point?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    edited October 2023
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,640

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    You think the solution is ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity?
  • There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    That pretty much is what happened after 1948 - the West Bank became part of Jordan and Gaza was controlled by Egypt.

    It was the Israeli advance in 1967 which changed the situation.

    So it has effectively become an Israeli only problem - harder for them to deal with in some ways but it doesn't result in war with Egypt or Jordan.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,934
    I'll have to know more details, but if the first acounts are broadly correct, the success of this attack shows a serious intelligence failure by the Israeli government, Perhaps Netanyahu has been paying too much attention to his domestic opponents, and too little to his "IslamoNazi" enemies.
  • There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    The only reason that there's no Palestinian state is that Egypt and Transjordan (not Israel) invaded in 1947 and murdered it at birth, while trying to murder Israel at birth in the immediate wake of the Holocaust. Thank goodness they failed.

    They then tried to murder Israel again, in 1967. Again thank goodness they failed.

    Arafat had the opportunity for peace. He turned it down.

    Hamas, Iran etc still demand Israel's destruction.

    The only way peace may ultimately be attained is if those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist are relocated to Egypt or Jordan (who after all are the nations responsible for Palestine not existing) or Iran.

    It's unpleasant but increasingly the only viable path to peace. And that's not Israel's fault, they're the victims here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    edited October 2023

    I'll have to know more details, but if the first acounts are broadly correct, the success of this attack shows a serious intelligence failure by the Israeli government, Perhaps Netanyahu has been paying too much attention to his domestic opponents, and too little to his "IslamoNazi" enemies.

    Yes, it's a catastrophic failure for the IDF and Mossad - beyond "serious". It reminds me a little of the Tet Offensive, which in itself was a failure but was a fatal blow, long term, to the American effort in Vietnam, as it exposed America's lack of control and intelligence

    For now, I am sure Israelis will be right behind Netanyahu, cheering on Operation Take Em Out, but when the dust settles he will pay a political price, likewise the spies and soldiers who should have seen this coming. 5000 rockets? Militants flying paragliders, and riding boats onto Israeli beaches?

    Gaza is probably the most surveilled place on earth, and they missed it all
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    edited October 2023

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    The only reason that there's no Palestinian state is that Egypt and Transjordan (not Israel) invaded in 1947 and murdered it at birth, while trying to murder Israel at birth in the immediate wake of the Holocaust. Thank goodness they failed.

    They then tried to murder Israel again, in 1967. Again thank goodness they failed.

    Arafat had the opportunity for peace. He turned it down.

    Hamas, Iran etc still demand Israel's destruction.

    The only way peace may ultimately be attained is if those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist are relocated to Egypt or Jordan (who after all are the nations responsible for Palestine not existing) or Iran.

    It's unpleasant but increasingly the only viable path to peace. And that's not Israel's fault, they're the victims here.
    Egypt and Jordan ceded their claims to West Bank/Gaza to the PLO back in 1988.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    You think the solution is ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity?
    Unfortunately a hundred will get you one Netanyahu and his government does.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    You think the solution is ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity?
    Brutal as it is, ethnic cleansing HAS solved some intractable issues. Turks and Greeks were cleansed from Greece and Turkey in 1923, it was a tragedy for many people on both sides, but the two nations have not fought a war since

    See also the Germans expelled from eastern Europe post WW2
  • Farooq said:

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
    What Palestine on the map?

    Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.

    They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.

    If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    Farooq said:

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
    Isn’t it the “realist” position?

    1) Its a shame about the Israeli settlers
    2) but facts on the ground
    3) Plus Hamas has some ugly historic links to Arab National Socialism
    4) So the Palestinians should accept whatever the Israeli government offers them now
    5) No aid should be sent to the Palestinians.
    6) All of the above is Because! Peace!
  • Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
    The Greens in the Russian Civil War?
  • Single mother says Tory MP Gary Streeter who was caught on CCTV attacking security camera at her house only started trying to evict her after they fell out over Covid
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12604807/Tory-MP-wants-disagreed-Government-Covid-response.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Leon said:

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    You think the solution is ethnic cleansing, a crime against humanity?
    Brutal as it is, ethnic cleansing HAS solved some intractable issues. Turks and Greeks were cleansed from Greece and Turkey in 1923, it was a tragedy for many people on both sides, but the two nations have not fought a war since

    See also the Germans expelled from eastern Europe post WW2
    The Turks and Greeks fought each other in Cyprus in 1974. But yes. Some problems just need to find a resolution.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,362
    If the stories about mass kidnapping are true, this is could be a disaster. Let's hope Hamas don't go full ISIS.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,699
    edited October 2023

    Farooq said:

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
    Isn’t it the “realist” position?

    1) Its a shame about the Israeli settlers
    2) but facts on the ground
    3) Plus Hamas has some ugly historic links to Arab National Socialism
    4) So the Palestinians should accept whatever the Israeli government offers them now
    5) No aid should be sent to the Palestinians.
    6) All of the above is Because! Peace!
    The thing is that Israel have bent over backwards to be the better person in this conflict. Despite being the victims, despite the Holocaust, despite having superior firepower they have shown remarkable restrain.

    Had they wanted to they could have cleared the land in 1967 and expelled the aggressors back into their remaining territory as happened to Germany post WWII.

    It's only because they didn't do that, that this conflict has raged for so long.

    And for that restraint, antisemitic racists treat them as the worst nation on earth while Russia, China and others actively engage in ethnic cleansing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122

    Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
    Tamil Tigers?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
    What I susoect/fear is that Israel will go even further this time. They won't just bomb the fuck out of the poor innocent Gazans, they will go in and occupy, and possibly try and kick all the Gazans out. It sounds insane, but Netanyahu's government contains extremists who have suggested exactly this, before. Now they have a casus belli

    As for your second question, it's a good one. Didn't the Brits do a decent-ish job in Malaysia? TBH I can't be sure, and no doubt there was some politics involved

    Shining Path in Peru were pretty much wiped out by hard army attacks, not much negotiation there


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path#:~:text=Government forces destroyed villages and,fight against the Shining Path.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
    The Greens in the Russian Civil War?
    The Peruvians wiped out (pretty much) Shining Path. By launching a counter insurgency against them.

    Vladimiro Lenin Ilich Montesinos Torres has been bored to death as a kid by his ultra communist parents forcing him to read the The Little Red Book. So when he rose to head the Peruvian counter terrorism effort, he applied it in reverse…
  • Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now.
    What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.

    A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
    Tamil Tigers

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War

    Perhaps some of the wars in 1950s and 1960s Malaysia and Kenya ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Eabhal said:

    If the stories about mass kidnapping are true, this is could be a disaster. Let's hope Hamas don't go full ISIS.

    it doesn't look good, and it is ongoing

    "As of half an hour ago. “The IDF has not yet gained control in any of the locations that involve terrorist infiltration in southern Israel. Residents are still in shelters and report that no Israeli security forces nor available medical staff are on site.”"

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1710612659198947644?s=20

    "Horrific. ‘"We are being slaughtered. There is no army. It has been 6 hours. People are begging for their lives," one Israeli in a southern kibbutz said.’"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    It is escalating


    "Now Palestinians are seizing tanks and other vehicles at an IDF military site east of Gaza.

    Is the Israeli government still in control?
    🤔
    #Israel
    #IsraelUnderAttack
    #Gaza
    #Hamas"

    https://x.com/ricwe123/status/1710640654928241020?s=20
  • Leon said:

    An Israeli military opinion

    "Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert
    @issacharoff
    makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."

    https://x.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1710600248706396396?s=20


    Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure

    However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes

    Yes, this is a personal disaster for Netanyahu, who framed himself as a Putinite 'democracy is for wimps' strongman. Of course, Hamas will know that's his raison d'etre, so a great judo move by them.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.

    The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.

    This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.

    Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
    What Palestine on the map?

    Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.

    They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.

    If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
    What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
    What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.

    There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.

    If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
  • Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    If the stories about mass kidnapping are true, this is could be a disaster. Let's hope Hamas don't go full ISIS.

    it doesn't look good, and it is ongoing

    "As of half an hour ago. “The IDF has not yet gained control in any of the locations that involve terrorist infiltration in southern Israel. Residents are still in shelters and report that no Israeli security forces nor available medical staff are on site.”"

    https://x.com/shashj/status/1710612659198947644?s=20

    "Horrific. ‘"We are being slaughtered. There is no army. It has been 6 hours. People are begging for their lives," one Israeli in a southern kibbutz said.’"
    The IDF will retake these places, that is certain. The question is what do they do next?

    Limited strikes on terrorists in Gaza do not work. They will need to do more. Which will be bad for civilians imprisoned in Gaza. But what is the alternative?
This discussion has been closed.