Sunak continues to struggle with favourability – politicalbetting.com

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Miklosvar said:

viewcode said:

Malmesbury said:

https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/07/viasats-new-broadband-satellite-could-be-a-total-loss/

Short version - legacy satellite data provider is looking at big loss. They are stuffed long term - this will make their demise faster.

If only we had a simple and robust ability to send somebody up quickly with a spanner.

There's a lesson here about modularity. Pretty sure a single Starlink sat does not cost 700m.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.

Theuniondivvie said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Self praise is no praise.

If it's widely read the evidence suggests those high enders immediately forget all the self regarding wisdom available on here.

HYUFD said:

Andy_JS said:

Uxbridge is the political event that could turn Sunak's fortunes around. I'd concentrate on that one and not put too much effort into the other two in Somerton and Selby.

I am going to Uxbridge tomorrow, first by election I have helped in since Old Bexley and Sidcup. Both those seats were Tory holds even in 1997, unlike Somerton and Selby and Labour are/were the challengers not the LDs, best conditions for a Tory by election hold. Plus ULEZ issue in Uxbridge too

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Leon said:

Dura_Ace said:

Sandpit said:

Do we know where @leon is in the world at the moment? I might be about to trump him in the best view at sunset today award.

Don't worry. You are never more than 72 hours away from an interminable Old Man Gets Drunk On His Own In A Foreign Country photo essay.

About 48 hours, actually

Sandpit said:

Do we know where @leon is in the world at the moment? I might be about to trump him in the best view at sunset today award.

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Omnium said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?

Theuniondivvie said:

kjh said:

Dura_Ace said:

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.

I'm sure I have but I'm struggling to think what. I have certainly read some thought proking posts from many and not necessarily from my political view point.

Ghastly as the Tory party is, I did hold an instinctive superstition that some form of pragmatic competence lurked under their scaly, saurian skin. Completely changed my mind on that.

Carnyx said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Which of the Scots PBers kept asking me if I'd "done" Reston station (near the Border on the ECML)? @Theuniondivvie? @carnyx? @fairliered? Well, I visited it yesterday on my way back to London

Possibly me, and congratulations! Nice photos again. Wonder where the stone is from? Could even be local-ish, as it seems to be a red sandstone.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.

ClippP said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.

Nigelb said:

Miklosvar said:

Northern_Al said:

Bezos will be gutted that Amazon has failed to deliver.

I had hoped he would be on the site for longer, but he was struck down in his Prime.

Red rather than blue origin, though.

Omnium said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?

Omnium said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?

Omnium said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?

Dura_Ace said:

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.

Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.

Of course we really sophisticated Russian trolls are biding our time, waiting until we get to 30,000+ posts before subtly undermining western democracy... Oh дерьмо!

Quiet comrade. You will give us away!

Richard_Tyndall said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ClippP said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.

Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.

Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.

Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.

SandyRentool said:

With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?

stodge said:

Omnium said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?

BP and BT - you can have two.

Leon said:

SandyRentool said:

With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?

They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

SandyRentool said:

With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?

They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe

45 mph winds in Wimbledon have caused the roof to be closed even though it's not raining.

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ClippP said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.

Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.

Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.

Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.

Is there then, in your opinion, any possible comparable country? If not, it's hard to prove your incorrect argument without a window into the alternative universe where a UK PM made sensible use of the North Sea Oil bonanza.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ClippP said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

PJH said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Mexicanpete said:

Benpointer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

bigjohnowls said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sean_F said:

Benpointer said:

Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.

Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:

- NHS waiting times
- Real income
- Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?)
- Growth
- Inflation
- Immigration
- House ownership %
- Days lost to strikes

I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)

You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.

The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.

Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today

More excuses than a pregnant nun!

Hard to face reality then

I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)

In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.

But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.

You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.

Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.

Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).

Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?

I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.

Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.

Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.

I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).

I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.

The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.

The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.

On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.

Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?

Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.

Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010

AKA:

Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money

And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.

Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.

Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.

Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

Miklosvar said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

The weather is always Wetter in Germany.

But the children are Kinder.

Peck said:

At least Sunak has distanced himself from the defence secretary.
By-election coming in Wyre and Preston North?

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

Temperatures in Israel. These are extreme

It gets hot in the Middle East, really?

SandyRentool said:

With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?

viewcode said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Phil said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.

Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?

It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)

There is no https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/Snowflake or https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/snowflake . Was it before the move from Disqus?

viewcode said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Phil said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.

Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?

It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)

There is no https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/Snowflake or https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/snowflake . Was it before the move from Disqus?

Leon said:

TimS said:

SandyRentool said:

With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?

Very interesting pattern. We have unusually strong westerlies and a stuck pattern bringing coolish (but not that cool) weather to Northern Europe all the way to Finland, and that’s bottling up the heat to the South. The polar opposite of the June pattern where we had high pressure in the North and cool wet weather in the Med.

Once patterns get established they seem to stick for longer these days. That sounds anecdotal but there is some evidence to support this. Some signs of a pattern change at the end of the month. The current westerlies are at least partly boosted by the inactive phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation in the tropics. If that flips then we may flip too.

This sort of weather pattern is quite kind to the extreme South East. Kent got 23C yesterday while most of us were cold and wet. Even today it’s been 21C there.

I am near certain we get stuck in prolonged patterns more than we used to

Like the amazing sunny spring of lockdown 1, or the endless grey cold winter of lockdown 3. Weather that just goes on and on. It’s just not British

Weakening Gulf Stream?

Peck said:

Leon said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

Temperatures in Israel. These are extreme

It gets hot in the Middle East, really?

Israel is in Europe! See Eurovision passim

In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast

PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)

You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill's_Methods

How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?

Peck said:

Leon said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

Temperatures in Israel. These are extreme

It gets hot in the Middle East, really?

Israel is in Europe! See Eurovision passim

In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast

PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)

You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill's_Methods

How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?

Beibheirli_C said:

SandyRentool said:

viewcode said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Phil said:

Malmesbury said:

Sandpit said:

FF43 said:

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

Amazon said:

The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.

Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?

They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.

I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.

It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.

I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.

Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.

Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.

Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.

PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.

We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.

Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?

It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)

There is no https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/Snowflake or https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/snowflake . Was it before the move from Disqus?

Before the move TO disqus.

Yikes! What did we have back then? I have forgotten, but I remember nobody liked the migration to disqus

Leon said:

Peck said:

Leon said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

Temperatures in Israel. These are extreme

It gets hot in the Middle East, really?

Israel is in Europe! See Eurovision passim

In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast

PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)

You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill's_Methods

How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?

That was what I used to think: and was the main basis of my skepticism. What about the medieval warm period, huh? Who was driving all the SUVs in the 12th century, eh? And are we even warming anyway, why did temps flatline from about 1998?

But then I travelled so much and saw 1 practical evidence of ongoing warming (like glaciers shrinking or wine making shifting) and 2 all the damn people. There are just so many people everywhere. It is hard to believe we are not changing the planet and we are pumping out so much pollution and smoke and whatever…

AGW makes basic sense. We have altered the planet. Perhaps catastrophically. I am personally more concerned by things like the insect crash and species decline than I am by warming, for the moment

We can adapt to warmth. It might even be good. But if all the insects die we’re fucked