Uxbridge is the political event that could turn Sunak's fortunes around. I'd concentrate on that one and not put too much effort into the other two in Somerton and Selby.
I am going to Uxbridge tomorrow, first by election I have helped in since Old Bexley and Sidcup. Both those seats were Tory holds even in 1997, unlike Somerton and Selby and Labour are/were the challengers not the LDs, best conditions for a Tory by election hold. Plus ULEZ issue in Uxbridge too
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Self praise is no praise.
If it's widely read the evidence suggests those high enders immediately forget all the self regarding wisdom available on here.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.
Short version - legacy satellite data provider is looking at big loss. They are stuffed long term - this will make their demise faster.
If only we had a simple and robust ability to send somebody up quickly with a spanner.
There's a lesson here about modularity. Pretty sure a single Starlink sat does not cost 700m.
They are making 6 Starlink satellites per *day*, IIRC
The biggest problem with the satellite above is replacing it. SpaceX could probably squeeze in another launch this year - they are the only non-Chinese/Russian launch company with the capacity and flexibility to launch on shorter notice than several years.
Uxbridge is the political event that could turn Sunak's fortunes around. I'd concentrate on that one and not put too much effort into the other two in Somerton and Selby.
I am going to Uxbridge tomorrow, first by election I have helped in since Old Bexley and Sidcup. Both those seats were Tory holds even in 1997, unlike Somerton and Selby and Labour are/were the challengers not the LDs, best conditions for a Tory by election hold. Plus ULEZ issue in Uxbridge too
And the Hindus. Don't forget the Hindus. Flocking to Sunak in their tens.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
Quite a lot of the money for slashing taxes came from those council house sales - a huge transfer of capital from local to central government, which was used to finance current account spending. Likewise the privatisation of what were regional utilities.
Conservatives rightly criticised Brown for borrowing to finance current account spending; Thatcher was doing much the same. And bore a greater responsibility for growing the economy of L9ndon at the expense of the rest of the country.
A very mixed record. Short term successes, but setting up long term, intractable problems.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Self praise is no praise.
If it's widely read the evidence suggests those high enders immediately forget all the self regarding wisdom available on here.
The people in power keep doing the stupid stuff in a remarkable way. Putin is 300 days into a 3 day war.
Part of this is process - “turning the supertanker”.
One thing that Thatcher had a gift for was overcoming the system inertia and creating a new policy direction.
Uxbridge is the political event that could turn Sunak's fortunes around. I'd concentrate on that one and not put too much effort into the other two in Somerton and Selby.
I am going to Uxbridge tomorrow, first by election I have helped in since Old Bexley and Sidcup. Both those seats were Tory holds even in 1997, unlike Somerton and Selby and Labour are/were the challengers not the LDs, best conditions for a Tory by election hold. Plus ULEZ issue in Uxbridge too
Do not forget to speak only to True Conservatives - those who have never, ever voted for any other party.
You do not want to be wasting your valuable time dealing with turncoats and the impure....
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
My Indian colleagues in IT joke about the attitude in the low end contracting stuff from Mumbai. They cheerlead for whatever the guy who pays, says.
So vehement enthusiast for NoSQL on one project. While Oracle is the Only Way on another project they are working on. At the same time.
The acting level is very good - to a naive person it would, indeed, seem like belief.
I saw the same many decades ago at a large computer company I worked at. At the product release (to the salesmen) the salesman used to lap it up. Loads of whooping. Sometime later when I got to know a few of them I asked them about it and the response was they know it is all bollocks and they are just having fun. One wonders if the management actually knew they were taking the piss and that they really didn't have to put on a razzmatazz release. They actually weren't motivating the sales guys at all.
Do we know where @leon is in the world at the moment? I might be about to trump him in the best view at sunset today award.
Don't worry. You are never more than 72 hours away from an interminable Old Man Gets Drunk On His Own In A Foreign Country photo essay.
About 48 hours, actually
If you take a picture, take yourself out of it. Your pictures of empty streets were interesting. Your pictures with your laptop or your table or your hand or your food are not interesting. Your art is better without you in it.
Which of the Scots PBers kept asking me if I'd "done" Reston station (near the Border on the ECML)? @Theuniondivvie? @carnyx? @fairliered? Well, I visited it yesterday on my way back to London
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
My Indian colleagues in IT joke about the attitude in the low end contracting stuff from Mumbai. They cheerlead for whatever the guy who pays, says.
So vehement enthusiast for NoSQL on one project. While Oracle is the Only Way on another project they are working on. At the same time.
The acting level is very good - to a naive person it would, indeed, seem like belief.
When I used to have to manage Indian software teams in London (early 2000s) I found much the same. They would never disagree with the end-user management no matter what was proposed, but amongst themselves they would argue like fishwives. They also had an alarming propensity to completely misinterpret even written instructions and deliver complete tripe.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I'm sure I have but I'm struggling to think what. I have certainly read some thought proking posts from many and not necessarily from my political view point.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Which of the Scots PBers kept asking me if I'd "done" Reston station (near the Border on the ECML)? @Theuniondivvie? @carnyx? @fairliered? Well, I visited it yesterday on my way back to London
Possibly me, and congratulations! Nice photos again. Wonder where the stone is from? Could even be local-ish, as it seems to be a red sandstone.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I'm sure I have but I'm struggling to think what. I have certainly read some thought proking posts from many and not necessarily from my political view point.
Ghastly as the Tory party is, I did hold an instinctive superstition that some form of pragmatic competence lurked under their scaly, saurian skin. Completely changed my mind on that.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
Council house. Much more cheaply than any discount for sitting tenant would justify.
And, more recently, up north - vide Private Eye on Teesside.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I have changed my political viewpoint. I used to think that the Conservative philosophy was more effective and practical than Labour's. I loathed Tony Blair (and still do). I was mildly BOO as far as Europe was concerned.
Nowadays, you would only make me vote Conservative if you used branding irons on me and I am as far from BOO as I possibly can be.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I'm sure I have but I'm struggling to think what. I have certainly read some thought proking posts from many and not necessarily from my political view point.
Ghastly as the Tory party is, I did hold an instinctive superstition that some form of pragmatic competence lurked under their scaly, saurian skin. Completely changed my mind on that.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
Which of the Scots PBers kept asking me if I'd "done" Reston station (near the Border on the ECML)? @Theuniondivvie? @carnyx? @fairliered? Well, I visited it yesterday on my way back to London
Possibly me, and congratulations! Nice photos again. Wonder where the stone is from? Could even be local-ish, as it seems to be a red sandstone.
The local stone is Devonian Old Red Sandstone. Looks a good match.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I'm sure I have but I'm struggling to think what. I have certainly read some thought proking posts from many and not necessarily from my political view point.
Ghastly as the Tory party is, I did hold an instinctive superstition that some form of pragmatic competence lurked under their scaly, saurian skin. Completely changed my mind on that.
Unfair to Komodo monitors?
At least Komodos only have toxic saliva, these feckers poison everything they touch.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.
Of course we really sophisticated Russian trolls are biding our time, waiting until we get to 30,000+ posts before subtly undermining western democracy... Oh дерьмо!
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
i) The virtue of AV/PR.
Before: AV/PR is necessary to increase politial engagement
After: Dramatically increasing the number of FPTP constituencies (at least to 900 seats) is the way forward
ii) House of Lords reform
Before: The lack of popular election is undemocratic
After: Two competing legislative bodies elected from the same demos is a recipe for stasis. The HoL should be reformed by appointing bodies from different demos, such as guilds, unions, universities, business, quangos, and even politics.
There may be one or two others, but I can't think of them, and the two I've mentioned were initiated by links provided by PBers rather than themselves.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Which of the Scots PBers kept asking me if I'd "done" Reston station (near the Border on the ECML)? @Theuniondivvie? @carnyx? @fairliered? Well, I visited it yesterday on my way back to London
Possibly me, and congratulations! Nice photos again. Wonder where the stone is from? Could even be local-ish, as it seems to be a red sandstone.
The local stone is Devonian Old Red Sandstone. Looks a good match.
Exactly what I was thinking. But it could be New Red from over west - somewhere like Locharbriggs. Fits well into the area, anyway, with a decent visual match as you say.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
What were the total receipts for the water companies, and how much have they paid out in dividends ?
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
Council houses. Sold at a discount to market value.
All those public utilities where the share price took a considerable leap on the first day of trading.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.
Of course we really sophisticated Russian trolls are biding our time, waiting until we get to 30,000+ posts before subtly undermining western democracy... Oh дерьмо!
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
Council houses. Sold at a discount to market value.
All those public utilities where the share price took a considerable leap on the first day of trading.
Yes, so much so that even the odd MP was caught out trying to buy houses and share allocations which he shouldn't have been doing.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I changed my mind about Corbyn mainly due to the arguments on here.
I might well have realised what an arse he is anyway due to his own actions but there was a time when I thought he might be good for the country.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Youwould have thought they would have read my headers and learned how to be subtle.
Of course we really sophisticated Russian trolls are biding our time, waiting until we get to 30,000+ posts before subtly undermining western democracy... Oh дерьмо!
Quiet comrade. You will give us away!
Which reminds me yet again of a fantastic Stanislaw Lem story. A human spy is sent to a planet inhabited entirely by robots. He is, obviously, disguised as a robot. Every time a human spy is caught he is tortured and killed.
Eventually the human spy is indeed caught and it is whilst he is being tortured that he finally realises that all the robots torturing him are humans in disguise. They all think everyone else is a robot and so won't dare reveal themselves. He comes to realise there are no robots left on the planet. Only humans pretending. They all have to be as vicious as possible to prevent giving themselves away.
Given this was written in Poland the middle of the Cold War this was a remarkably brave story.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Is there then, in your opinion, any possible comparable country? If not, it's hard to prove your incorrect argument without a window into the alternative universe where a UK PM made sensible use of the North Sea Oil bonanza.
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
Could you give me an example of a public asset sold cheaply?
BP and BT - you can have two.
BP had already been partially privatised by Labour from 1976 onwards. By the time Thatcher sold the rest the Government holding was only 51% so the value it was sold at was a market value.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
My Indian colleagues in IT joke about the attitude in the low end contracting stuff from Mumbai. They cheerlead for whatever the guy who pays, says.
So vehement enthusiast for NoSQL on one project. While Oracle is the Only Way on another project they are working on. At the same time.
The acting level is very good - to a naive person it would, indeed, seem like belief.
I saw the same many decades ago at a large computer company I worked at. At the product release (to the salesmen) the salesman used to lap it up. Loads of whooping. Sometime later when I got to know a few of them I asked them about it and the response was they know it is all bollocks and they are just having fun. One wonders if the management actually knew they were taking the piss and that they really didn't have to put on a razzmatazz release. They actually weren't motivating the sales guys at all.
The sales guys know that if they act anything other than massively motivated in front of the managers, they’ll get binned tomorrow.
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe
45 mph winds in Wimbledon have caused the roof to be closed even though it's not raining.
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
They are related events. A huge anti cyclone is parked over the British isles giving us stiff wind, cool conditions and blustery rain. The exact same winds are ripping up broiling air from Africa and dumping it on the rest of Europe
45 mph winds in Wimbledon have caused the roof to be closed even though it's not raining.
I’m getting on a flight this evening and I’m already getting warnings from BA. Hopefully it won’t be cancelled but eeeesh
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
Very interesting pattern. We have unusually strong westerlies and a stuck pattern bringing coolish (but not that cool) weather to Northern Europe all the way to Finland, and that’s bottling up the heat to the South. The polar opposite of the June pattern where we had high pressure in the North and cool wet weather in the Med.
Once patterns get established they seem to stick for longer these days. That sounds anecdotal but there is some evidence to support this. Some signs of a pattern change at the end of the month. The current westerlies are at least partly boosted by the inactive phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation in the tropics. If that flips then we may flip too.
This sort of weather pattern is quite kind to the extreme South East. Kent got 23C yesterday while most of us were cold and wet. Even today it’s been 21C there.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Is there then, in your opinion, any possible comparable country? If not, it's hard to prove your incorrect argument without a window into the alternative universe where a UK PM made sensible use of the North Sea Oil bonanza.
Again, looking at it in isolation is not realistic. In comparison with the rest of Europe the UK went from 'the sick man of Europe' in the late 70s to one of the leading economies at the end of the 80s. We did make sensible use of North Sea oil. The alternative was to continue as a backward, failing, deindustrialising nation ruled by the unions and facing unsustainable challenges from the rest of the world.
Did Thatcher do everything (or even most) things right? No. But on the transformation of the economy on a national scale she was spot on.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Thatcher didn't do much rebuilding, though. And industrial policy was largely letting stuff go bust.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Is there then, in your opinion, any possible comparable country? If not, it's hard to prove your incorrect argument without a window into the alternative universe where a UK PM made sensible use of the North Sea Oil bonanza.
Again, looking at it in isolation is not realistic. In comparison with the rest of Europe the UK went from 'the sick man of Europe' in the late 70s to one of the leading economies at the end of the 80s. We did make sensible use of North Sea oil. The alternative was to continue as a backward, failing, deindustrialising nation ruled by the unions and facing unsustainable challenges from the rest of the world.
Did Thatcher do everything (or even most) things right? No. But on the transformation of the economy on a national scale she was spot on.
I wonder what Thatcherism without EEC membership would have looked like. Possibly a softer landing because British industry would have had some protection from continental imports.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
The Defence Secretary is having his doubts. Have any of our recent trolls mentioned ingratitude?
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
The Defence Secretary is having his doubts. Have any of our recent trolls mentioned ingratitude?
He’s been quite comprehensively misquoted hasn’t he?
The whole episode seems like a good reminder that politicians are best advised not to engage in hypothetical arguments in public, since online idiots with a surfeit of motivated reasoning behind them are guaranteed to take that hypothetical & present it as if it was what the politician really believes.
Personally, I think Ben Wallace’s stalwart support of Ukraine represents the best of Britishness.
(I actually do believe this, but if there’s any Ben Wallace online astroturf money to be had, feel free to send some my way.)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
The Defence Secretary is having his doubts. Have any of our recent trolls mentioned ingratitude?
Have any of them been sarky for example and observed that Wallace with his experience as minister for security and economic crime probably has a better feel than many for what happens when foreign aid flows to mafia states? :-)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Louise Mensch used to post here about 15 years ago apparently.
Regarding Squareroot's view that things were equally bad, or worse in 2010: I appreciate that this is a not uncommon view.
Never mind attacking Sunak, Labour should produce a set of posters and adverts which clearly paint the picture of how much better the period 1997-2010 was for the UK than 2010-2023/24 has been. It really wouldn't be hard, some simple graphs or simple statements of things like:
- NHS waiting times - Real income - Debt (seriously, who'd have thought would be a higher share of GDP now than in 2010?) - Growth - Inflation - Immigration - House ownership % - Days lost to strikes
I am sure PBers can think of a few others (number of Cabinet members prosecuted?)
You'd have to exclude the 2008-10 period.
The economy was in better shape, pre-2008, than now.
Not only that but ignore the effects of Brexit, covid and war in Ukraine all in the last 3 years, which are the unique drivers to where we are today
More excuses than a pregnant nun!
Hard to face reality then
I'm sure you were arguing that we should ignore the Global Financial Crisis when thinking about howe to vote back in 2010, Big_G ;-)
In truth, every government faces unexpected events. Labour had 9/11, 7/7 and the GFC; Tories had Brexit, Covid, Ukraine.
But Brexit was entirely of the Conservative Government's making.
You can't put that down as an "act of God" unless your god is called Boris Johnson.
Indeed true, but Big_G was using it as a reason for the Tories utter screw-up of the economy over the past 13 years, so I allowed him that one.
Some Tories, of course, still cling to the idea that the GFC was all Labour's fault (in which case they had a mighty impressive ability to influence the global economy).
Bottom line though, are there any PB posters, of whatever persuasion, who think the Tories have managed the economy at all well?
I'd say that their economic management has been about average, for rich world governments, from 2010 to date.
Almost every rich country has been dealt a rotten hand, over the past 13 years.
Real criticism of the government lies elsewhere, IMHO. The corruption, the infighting, and the very odd sense of priorities, in terms of public spending. The almost wilful ineptititude with which they run institutions.
I am curious about how the Tories get their reputation for good management of the economy? In my adult lifetime the only period of sustained econmic growth has come under Labour (1997-2007).
I entered adulthood in the Thatcher years in the middle of a long recession. I started work on 1988 on a slight economic upswing from a low base but by the time we got to February 1989 things were on the down again and my friends seeking work a year behind me all really struggled to find jobs. We also had a burst of 10% inflation.
The early 90s were grim, we fell out of the ERM, there was a property bust, and I lost my job twice in that period, and of my friends wasn't alone. I will concede that having made a complete pig's ear of everything Major and Clarke provided a steadier hand at the tiller from about 94 onwards but by then their reputation was in tatters anyway.
The we get to 2010. I felt at the time that some austerity was needed for a while to balance the books. It was probably too much for too long even under the coalition, but once the restraining had of the LDs was removed it has been an utter shitshow.
On the other hand under Labour not only did the economy grow, the public realm also visibly improved. The GFC revealed that they hadn't been attentive enough in building up reserves for a rainy day, as in fact they had done in the first few years. But overall 1997-2010 is a far better record than anything the Tories can point at, without even having to bother to look up statistics.
Looking at the current Labour leadership, Starmer seems more of a conservative than anyone in the current Conservative Party. Yet "everyone" is scared of Labour trashing the economy. Why?
Well Thatcher did cut strikes, slash the top income tax rate, rejuvinate Docklands, expand working class property ownership via council house sales and privatise inefficient nationalise industries. Major cut inflation.
Unemployment now at 4% half the 8% unemployment Labour left in 2010
AKA:
Took away workers' rights Gave tax cuts to the rich Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development Sold off public assets on the cheap Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And squandered all the proceeds from North Sea Oil.
Used the proceeds from North Sea Oil to deal with the transformation and modernisation of the economy away from uncompetitive heavy industries.
Uh-huh? Good job Germany had all that North Sea Oil too then.
Germany had an industrial base that had been completely rebuilt by the allies only 30 years earlier. There really was no comparison.
Is there then, in your opinion, any possible comparable country? If not, it's hard to prove your incorrect argument without a window into the alternative universe where a UK PM made sensible use of the North Sea Oil bonanza.
Again, looking at it in isolation is not realistic. In comparison with the rest of Europe the UK went from 'the sick man of Europe' in the late 70s to one of the leading economies at the end of the 80s. We did make sensible use of North Sea oil. The alternative was to continue as a backward, failing, deindustrialising nation ruled by the unions and facing unsustainable challenges from the rest of the world.
Did Thatcher do everything (or even most) things right? No. But on the transformation of the economy on a national scale she was spot on.
I wonder what Thatcherism without EEC membership would have looked like. Possibly a softer landing because British industry would have had some protection from continental imports.
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
Very interesting pattern. We have unusually strong westerlies and a stuck pattern bringing coolish (but not that cool) weather to Northern Europe all the way to Finland, and that’s bottling up the heat to the South. The polar opposite of the June pattern where we had high pressure in the North and cool wet weather in the Med.
Once patterns get established they seem to stick for longer these days. That sounds anecdotal but there is some evidence to support this. Some signs of a pattern change at the end of the month. The current westerlies are at least partly boosted by the inactive phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation in the tropics. If that flips then we may flip too.
This sort of weather pattern is quite kind to the extreme South East. Kent got 23C yesterday while most of us were cold and wet. Even today it’s been 21C there.
I am near certain we get stuck in prolonged patterns more than we used to
Like the amazing sunny spring of lockdown 1, or the endless grey cold winter of lockdown 3. Weather that just goes on and on. It’s just not British
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
Nicosia is equally hot, and watch Sicily and Sardinia next week.
Las Vegas could beat its record today. Lot of it about.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Oh indeed, but you’re going to be a lot more subtle if you want to actually change mind on this forum, rather than charging in like a bull in a china shop of propaganda.
Has anybody ever changed their mind about anything on here? Even Billy G's damascene conversion to the political philosophy of an asphasiac Hartlepudlian publican was after the brexit nabka.
I haven't but I do find it useful for understanding what other people think and why.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
Louise Mensch used to post here about 15 years ago apparently.
We had 2 MPs posting under their own names, even before we speculate about others.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:
With the rest of the northern hemisphere enduring a heat wave, how come autumn has arrived two months early in Blighty?
Very interesting pattern. We have unusually strong westerlies and a stuck pattern bringing coolish (but not that cool) weather to Northern Europe all the way to Finland, and that’s bottling up the heat to the South. The polar opposite of the June pattern where we had high pressure in the North and cool wet weather in the Med.
Once patterns get established they seem to stick for longer these days. That sounds anecdotal but there is some evidence to support this. Some signs of a pattern change at the end of the month. The current westerlies are at least partly boosted by the inactive phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation in the tropics. If that flips then we may flip too.
This sort of weather pattern is quite kind to the extreme South East. Kent got 23C yesterday while most of us were cold and wet. Even today it’s been 21C there.
I am near certain we get stuck in prolonged patterns more than we used to
Like the amazing sunny spring of lockdown 1, or the endless grey cold winter of lockdown 3. Weather that just goes on and on. It’s just not British
Weakening Gulf Stream?
There's some evidence that one of the influences of low solar activity is more blocking high pressures affecting the Atlantic jet stream. This would lead to more stuck patterns of weather. The last couple of solar cycles have been a bit weaker.
There's still quite a lot of doubt about this, because no-one has a convincing mechanistic explanation for the connection, there's so much variability that the statistics are weak, and blocking patterns are one of the synoptic features that climate models still struggle most with, but it is at least plausible.
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:
How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?
That was what I used to think: and was the main basis of my skepticism. What about the medieval warm period, huh? Who was driving all the SUVs in the 12th century, eh? And are we even warming anyway, why did temps flatline from about 1998?
But then I travelled so much and saw 1 practical evidence of ongoing warming (like glaciers shrinking or wine making shifting) and 2 all the damn people. There are just so many people everywhere. It is hard to believe we are not changing the planet and we are pumping out so much pollution and smoke and whatever…
AGW makes basic sense. We have altered the planet. Perhaps catastrophically. I am personally more concerned by things like the insect crash and species decline than I am by warming, for the moment
We can adapt to warmth. It might even be good. But if all the insects die we’re fucked
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:
How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?
We can see that none of the not-B triggers for past climate change have happened recently, so, y'know, kinda leaves CO2 from fossil fuel burning as the only remaining explanation.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:
How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?
A under some descriptions has not resulted from *anything* before. If Sicily hits 48 tomorrow that's a unique occurrence in the relevant time frame. New effects need explanation by new causes.
In the process of searching for a Snowflake comment on PB, I found this interesting one from SeanT from 21st September 2008.
"To be fair I don’t think all the funny/sharp/articulate PB posters are on the right. I was being satirical!!??!!
Tyson could be droll, and very acute, in his own weird way (though I note he’s now, er, a Tory). Roger was once capable of very cutting insights (though he’s lost his vim, I fear, and is reduced to oddly inane observations of late). Snowflake was pretty impressive in her determination (but she has fled to the comfortzone of Labour Home).
And there I think is the problem, as Mike Smithson correctly says. It’s not that the Tories have crowded out the lefties with their gloating and boasting, it’s just that the lefties have lost conviction, due to the moral incoherence of their party, and their concomitant decline in the polls. Their increasingly feeble presence on here is a result of their philosophical and psephological decay, not a symptom of Tory “bullying”.
But that won’t be forever. I hereby predict that within two or three years of Cameron coming into power, this site will be chocka with angry lefties, fired with anger and conviction, while the righties will be rather less full of themselves.
Ain’t nobody’s fault. PB.com merely holds up a mirror to the British political soul.
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
You need to have a look at Mill's methods for investigating and showing causation:
How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?
That was what I used to think: and was the main basis of my skepticism. What about the medieval warm period, huh? Who was driving all the SUVs in the 12th century, eh? And are we even warming anyway, why did temps flatline from about 1998?
But then I travelled so much and saw 1 practical evidence of ongoing warming (like glaciers shrinking or wine making shifting) and 2 all the damn people. There are just so many people everywhere. It is hard to believe we are not changing the planet and we are pumping out so much pollution and smoke and whatever…
AGW makes basic sense. We have altered the planet. Perhaps catastrophically. I am personally more concerned by things like the insect crash and species decline than I am by warming, for the moment
We can adapt to warmth. It might even be good. But if all the insects die we’re fucked
What's your reasoning for believing there's a causal link though? No serious person disputes either 1 or 2. But heavyweight pro-AGW influencers certainly like to amalgamate AGW scepticism with a rejection of 1. Obama, for example.
The confident mocking respinses have gone. Honestly can you guys get anything right...erm no.
Curious why all these trolls turn up on Saturday mornings. Can't see any reason for it. Are they working off some spreadsheet with a Saturday am cell marked "politicalbetting.com" and nobody can be arsed to change it?
They are not Russian because their English is not how Russians write and speak in that language.
I assume they are from anglophone parts of Africa being paid buttons to push the Russian lines and have day jobs or academic commitments Mon-Fri.
It's a very crude psy-op and the Ukrainian ones (Euromaiden, Visegard24, etc. All that shit that gets reposted here by the credulous.) are much better, presumably with the help of Langley.
I suspect that too. Possibly also from India. I also suspect at some level they actually believe what they post.
Agree they’re not Russian. The language isn’t quite right. @Dura_Ace could be right that they’re operating out of English-speaking Africa, with people who can pick up a lot of UK politics relatively quickly.
Today’s was a particularly bad example though. One of the trainees who goes straight to the propaganda with no attempt to ingratiate themselves in the forum first.
Quite why they target PB is another question. It’s very unlikely they’re going to change any minds on the subject here.
PB is widely read in high end politics. MPs etc.
We know Cameron used to read this site. Still does, perhaps.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
It was rumoured that a very well known Labour politician used to post under the handle "Snowflake". Her online blog has not seen any new posts since 2014 (because I just checked)
Comments
Self praise is no praise.
If it's widely read the evidence suggests those high enders immediately forget all the self regarding wisdom available on here.
The biggest problem with the satellite above is replacing it. SpaceX could probably squeeze in another launch this year - they are the only non-Chinese/Russian launch company with the capacity and flexibility to launch on shorter notice than several years.
But building a sat like that would take years.
Likewise the privatisation of what were regional utilities.
Conservatives rightly criticised Brown for borrowing to finance current account spending; Thatcher was doing much the same.
And bore a greater responsibility for growing the economy of L9ndon at the expense of the rest of the country.
A very mixed record. Short term successes, but setting up long term, intractable problems.
Part of this is process - “turning the supertanker”.
One thing that Thatcher had a gift for was overcoming the system inertia and creating a new policy direction.
You do not want to be wasting your valuable time dealing with turncoats and the impure....
Took away workers' rights
Gave tax cuts to the rich
Allowed the proceeds of a bullion robbery to be laundered through property development
Sold off public assets on the cheap
Sold off even more public assets on the cheap and pissed away the money
And, more recently, up north - vide Private Eye on Teesside.
Nowadays, you would only make me vote Conservative if you used branding irons on me and I am as far from BOO as I possibly can be.
Has anyone else in high level politics admitted to a PB addiction?
- Before: AV/PR is necessary to increase politial engagement
- After: Dramatically increasing the number of FPTP constituencies (at least to 900 seats) is the way forward
ii) House of Lords reform- Before: The lack of popular election is undemocratic
- After: Two competing legislative bodies elected from the same demos is a recipe for stasis. The HoL should be reformed by appointing bodies from different demos, such as guilds, unions, universities, business, quangos, and even politics.
There may be one or two others, but I can't think of them, and the two I've mentioned were initiated by links provided by PBers rather than themselves.(I think we all know the answer to that one.)
All those public utilities where the share price took a considerable leap on the first day of trading.
I might well have realised what an arse he is anyway due to his own actions but there was a time when I thought he might be good for the country.
Eventually the human spy is indeed caught and it is whilst he is being tortured that he finally realises that all the robots torturing him are humans in disguise. They all think everyone else is a robot and so won't dare reveal themselves. He comes to realise there are no robots left on the planet. Only humans pretending. They all have to be as vicious as possible to prevent giving themselves away.
Given this was written in Poland the middle of the Cold War this was a remarkably brave story.
(Thank you for the explanation.)
Once patterns get established they seem to stick for longer these days. That sounds anecdotal but there is some evidence to support this. Some signs of a pattern change at the end of the month. The current westerlies are at least partly boosted by the inactive phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation in the tropics. If that flips then we may flip too.
This sort of weather pattern is quite kind to the extreme South East. Kent got 23C yesterday while most of us were cold and wet. Even today it’s been 21C there.
Did Thatcher do everything (or even most) things right? No. But on the transformation of the economy on a national scale she was spot on.
And industrial policy was largely letting stuff go bust.
By-election coming in Wyre and Preston North?
The whole episode seems like a good reminder that politicians are best advised not to engage in hypothetical arguments in public, since online idiots with a surfeit of motivated reasoning behind them are guaranteed to take that hypothetical & present it as if it was what the politician really believes.
Personally, I think Ben Wallace’s stalwart support of Ukraine represents the best of Britishness.
(I actually do believe this, but if there’s any Ben Wallace online astroturf money to be had, feel free to send some my way.)
Bitter.
In all seriousness, talking of mind changes I’ve gone from being mildly skeptical about anthro global warming to generally accepting it is happening. And happening quite fast
PB was a part of the reason I changed (tho there were many other reasons - not least seeing it with my own eyes)
Like the amazing sunny spring of lockdown 1, or the endless grey cold winter of lockdown 3. Weather that just goes on and on. It’s just not British
Weakening Gulf Stream?
Las Vegas could beat its record today. Lot of it about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill's_Methods
How on earth can you say A results from B when A has resulted from not-B so many times?
There's still quite a lot of doubt about this, because no-one has a convincing mechanistic explanation for the connection, there's so much variability that the statistics are weak, and blocking patterns are one of the synoptic features that climate models still struggle most with, but it is at least plausible.
Almost all of the rest of it just a mendacity and bullshit salad.
But then I travelled so much and saw 1 practical evidence of ongoing warming (like glaciers shrinking or wine making shifting) and 2 all the damn people. There are just so many people everywhere. It is hard to believe we are not changing the planet and we are pumping out so much pollution and smoke and whatever…
AGW makes basic sense. We have altered the planet. Perhaps catastrophically. I am personally more concerned by things like the insect crash and species decline than I am by warming, for the moment
We can adapt to warmth. It might even be good. But if all the insects die we’re fucked
"To be fair I don’t think all the funny/sharp/articulate PB posters are on the right. I was being satirical!!??!!
Tyson could be droll, and very acute, in his own weird way (though I note he’s now, er, a Tory). Roger was once capable of very cutting insights (though he’s lost his vim, I fear, and is reduced to oddly inane observations of late). Snowflake was pretty impressive in her determination (but she has fled to the comfortzone of Labour Home).
And there I think is the problem, as Mike Smithson correctly says. It’s not that the Tories have crowded out the lefties with their gloating and boasting, it’s just that the lefties have lost conviction, due to the moral incoherence of their party, and their concomitant decline in the polls. Their increasingly feeble presence on here is a result of their philosophical and psephological decay, not a symptom of Tory “bullying”.
But that won’t be forever. I hereby predict that within two or three years of Cameron coming into power, this site will be chocka with angry lefties, fired with anger and conviction, while the righties will be rather less full of themselves.
Ain’t nobody’s fault. PB.com merely holds up a mirror to the British political soul.
by seanT September 21st, 2008 at 7:46 pm"
https://web.archive.org/web/20080922091242/http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/09/21/four-more-resignations-after-the-conference/
But heavyweight pro-AGW influencers certainly like to amalgamate AGW scepticism with a rejection of 1. Obama, for example.