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Is it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    https://twitter.com/MikeClarke2020s/status/1672496172869509120

    As we all get really interested in this situation - yes, it could be a great immediate opportunity for Ukr military, but remember, these guys don't want to end the war, they want to fight it better....(Still, disruption within any enemy is a good thing.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    If Wagner are mercenaries, who is paying them?

    Well we know that the Russian government *was* paying them to fight in Ukraine. Who’s paying them now, to march on Moscow, well that’s a somewhat different question. I suspect their price isn’t particularly high, in the grand scheme of things.
    I think Prig's current 'payment' is survival. It looks as though he was on his way out, and these actions have been somewhat forced on him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    @Jonathan asks a very good question about who's hired Wagner, and why.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    The video reportedly shows the Wagner Group's convoy moving across Russia's Voronezh Oblast in the direction of Moscow

    Euromaidan Press cannot independently verify the claim.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1672497636996268032
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    Aren't the ones currently in Zaporizhzhia meant to be the best?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    So where is the lazy little fucker? We were promised a statement within 15 minutes and that was an hour ago.

    Is he still arguing with Shoygu?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    As evidence of lack of plan in place.

    “Now, commercials. And then… commercials.”

    Russian state TV is in chaos as anchors wait for info on producers who themselves need instructions from the Kremlin on how to cover this attempted coup. Today has been lots of ads & occasional, very brief MOD statements.

    https://twitter.com/mjluxmoore/status/1672497184024203265
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    On your first point, aside from Wagner how many 'effective' units did Russia have? Most of the rest seem to have stalled, or gone into retreat.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    edited June 2023
    Nigelb said:

    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.

    Its too late. The regime is not going to survive this. The question is now how long Prigrozhin has before the target is on his back.

    This is the beginning of very dark times in Russia, but then, unless Russia deals with its past, it will not be able to have any future anyway.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    He’s speaking!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    According to Wagner, Rostov is still functioning to supply the SMO. FWIW.

    That's not impossible, given there seems to have been little or no fighting.

    It's certainly a huge opportunity for Ukraine, but if Putin falls in 24hrs, do hostilities just carry on ? Bit early to tell.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    BBC: Putin says some Russians have been "tricked into a criminal adventure"

    I'm agreeing so far.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited June 2023
    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.

    Its too late. The regime is not going to survive this. The question is now how long Prigrozhin has before the target is on his back.

    This is the beginning of very dark times in Russia, but then, unless Russia deals with its past, it will not be able to have any future anyway.
    I can't see Prigozhin being able to control the Russian state. Ultimately, he's a fat lazy coward who makes money from cooking gourmet meals and employing thugs to steal diamond mines. He's never actually shown the slightest sign of administrative ability. On his own admission Wagner are underresourced and badly run.

    So even if the FSB don't make him have an unfortunate accident with a window, or a day trip to Salisbury, I can't see him lasting even in the event he wins.

    But equally if the regime collapses it seems unlikely one of Putin's henchmen could take over.

    What would the likely outcome be? Military dictatorship? Open control by the FSB?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Yes and no.

    Growing the economy will be difficult, sure. Tax rises will be toxic, definitely. But squeezing the public sector pay bill at the level of workers is a husk of a lemon with all the juice squeezed out.

    Part of the problem is that austerity was more about allowing central government programmes to degrade, rather than cutting areas of activity. (Local government is different, they've had to cut pretty much everything that isn't required by law.) You can do that a bit for a while, but not this much for this long.

    https://www.joxleywrites.jmoxley.co.uk/p/the-shit-state-tories

    There are two options facing the government. One is to systematically stop doing certain things because it can't afford the staff any more. The other is for those things to begin falling over in a chaotic way as unfillable vacancies reach a critical mass. There is no third option.

    The first will be politically grim, and I don't know what cuts you announce. Even I don't really want to stop Year 9 going to school. But the second is dishonest, lazy and will create worse problems for Sunak's successor.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited June 2023
    Chris said:

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    Aren't the ones currently in Zaporizhzhia meant to be the best?
    People said Putin had a special brigade/corps of soldiers dedicated to his personal security, with a separate command structure to the regular armed forces. So, presumably, they are fortifying Moscow, but will they fight Wagner?

    I see on twitter that there were reports of some fighting at a couple of points on Wagner's journey to Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh, so some poor suckers are following orders and fighting against Wagner.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,797
    Still a not insignificant prospect that this is all theatre. Putler hands Prigozhin Shoigu’s head on a platter and on we go.

    But Putler appears to be coming out swinging. Bring on the popcorn.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    ydoethur said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    On your first point, aside from Wagner how many 'effective' units did Russia have? Most of the rest seem to have stalled, or gone into retreat.
    Russia hasn't exactly been impressive . Some of their best units were minced in Bakhmut in senseless attacks. What's left is of unknown quality as it is poorly led and packed with conscripts. I've been reading Pitt Buttar's history of the Russian front in 1917 to see what happens next.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Very Nazi. Talking about the Dolschtoss now.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Nigelb said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    According to Wagner, Rostov is still functioning to supply the SMO. FWIW.

    That's not impossible, given there seems to have been little or no fighting.

    It's certainly a huge opportunity for Ukraine, but if Putin falls in 24hrs, do hostilities just carry on ? Bit early to tell.
    I’d have thought any new regime would want to cut its losses. They’ll need the army to secure their position at home, rather than continue fighting an unwinnable war.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Farooq said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    I can't help the feeling that this is an elaborate feint to tempt the Ukrainian forces forward into a trap
    Could be, you are right in that you can never quite tell what the Russians are planning, but to date their senior command has not exactly shown strategic insight.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.

    Its too late. The regime is not going to survive this. The question is now how long Prigrozhin has before the target is on his back.

    This is the beginning of very dark times in Russia, but then, unless Russia deals with its past, it will not be able to have any future anyway.
    I can't see Prigozhin being able to control the Russian state. Ultimately, he's a fat lazy coward who makes money from cooking gourmet meals and employing thugs to steal diamond mines. He's never actually shown the slightest sign of administrative ability…
    How does that make him different from the current regime ?
    You’re probably correct about his inability to rule, but in the short term, who knows .
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1672259823402926081

    The Tory Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch has asked Ofsted to carry out a snap inspection of a school because, apparently, she believes a spoof story that a child at the school identifies as a cat.

    This MP has risen to Cabinet rank.

    Kemi is moron.

    Best to link to the full letter not a truncated version. It is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/letter-from-minister-for-women-and-equalities-to-the-ofsted-chief-inspector.

    The issue being raised relates to the school's understanding of its duties under the Equality Act. Not an imaginary cat. The Equality Act is here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,308

    Still a not insignificant prospect that this is all theatre. Putler hands Prigozhin Shoigu’s head on a platter and on we go.

    But Putler appears to be coming out swinging. Bring on the popcorn.

    The only way I can see some kind of theatre between Putin and Prigozhin making sense is if Prigozhin is supplying Putin with a stab-in-the-back narrative to explain being defeated by Ukraine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Both sides in this debate have been rehashing the same intelligence for years now. The latest release of US intelligence just confirms that.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    Chris said:

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    Aren't the ones currently in Zaporizhzhia meant to be the best?
    People said Putin had a special brigade/corps of soldiers dedicated to his personal security, with a separate command structure to the regular armed forces. So, presumably, they are fortifying Moscow, but will they fight Wagner?

    I see on twitter that there were reports of some fighting at a couple of points on Wagner's journey to Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh, so some poor suckers are following orders and fighting against Wagner.
    But if two cities with populations of over a million have fallen without significance resistance, then doesn't that already amount to mutiny on the part of the regular army?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.

    Its too late. The regime is not going to survive this. The question is now how long Prigrozhin has before the target is on his back.

    This is the beginning of very dark times in Russia, but then, unless Russia deals with its past, it will not be able to have any future anyway.
    I can't see Prigozhin being able to control the Russian state. Ultimately, he's a fat lazy coward who makes money from cooking gourmet meals and employing thugs to steal diamond mines. He's never actually shown the slightest sign of administrative ability. On his own admission Wagner are underresourced and badly run.

    So even if the FSB don't make him have an unfortunate accident with a window, or a day trip to Salisbury, I can't see him lasting even in the event he wins.

    But equally if the regime collapses it seems unlikely one of Putin's henchmen could take over.

    What would the likely outcome be? Military dictatorship? Open control by the FSB?
    The FSB are big losers so far. The short answer is I think several short lived leaders from different factions. The Chinese are backing Mistushshin, Patrushev neither father nor son do not want the gig. The speech looks recorded, so where Putin is now is an open question.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    Nigelb said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    According to Wagner, Rostov is still functioning to supply the SMO. FWIW.

    That's not impossible, given there seems to have been little or no fighting.

    It's certainly a huge opportunity for Ukraine, but if Putin falls in 24hrs, do hostilities just carry on ? Bit early to tell.
    I’d have thought any new regime would want to cut its losses. They’ll need the army to secure their position at home, rather than continue fighting an unwinnable war.
    That would be logical.
    Russia isn’t entirely ruled by logic.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Nigelb said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    According to Wagner, Rostov is still functioning to supply the SMO. FWIW.

    That's not impossible, given there seems to have been little or no fighting.

    It's certainly a huge opportunity for Ukraine, but if Putin falls in 24hrs, do hostilities just carry on ? Bit early to tell.
    I have no doubt there are still soldiers in Rostov, but if as reported all the senior commanders have bravely run away the frontline Russians will be facing paralysis. Russia's priority will now be the large distraction behind the lines.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Nigelb said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    According to Wagner, Rostov is still functioning to supply the SMO. FWIW.

    That's not impossible, given there seems to have been little or no fighting.

    It's certainly a huge opportunity for Ukraine, but if Putin falls in 24hrs, do hostilities just carry on ? Bit early to tell.
    I have no doubt there are still soldiers in Rostov, but if as reported all the senior commanders have bravely run away the frontline Russians will be facing paralysis. Russia's priority will now be the large distraction behind the lines.
    From robbing Ukrainians to Robin of Camelot?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited June 2023

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Yes and no.

    Growing the economy will be difficult, sure. Tax rises will be toxic, definitely. But squeezing the public sector pay bill at the level of workers is a husk of a lemon with all the juice squeezed out.

    Part of the problem is that austerity was more about allowing central government programmes to degrade, rather than cutting areas of activity. (Local government is different, they've had to cut pretty much everything that isn't required by law.) You can do that a bit for a while, but not this much for this long.

    https://www.joxleywrites.jmoxley.co.uk/p/the-shit-state-tories

    There are two options facing the government. One is to systematically stop doing certain things because it can't afford the staff any more. The other is for those things to begin falling over in a chaotic way as unfillable vacancies reach a critical mass. There is no third option.

    The first will be politically grim, and I don't know what cuts you announce. Even I don't really want to stop Year 9 going to school. But the second is dishonest, lazy and will create worse problems for Sunak's successor.

    We are fairly much on the same page but practical solutions are as rare as hen's teeth
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Farooq said:

    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    Nigelb said:

    How willing will Russia's regular army be to fight Wagner, and how quickly could that be organised anyway ?
    We've seen how incompetent and slow to react are their efforts in Ukraine. If they don't have a plan in place to deal with this, it could be over before they react.

    Its too late. The regime is not going to survive this. The question is now how long Prigrozhin has before the target is on his back.

    This is the beginning of very dark times in Russia, but then, unless Russia deals with its past, it will not be able to have any future anyway.
    I can't see Prigozhin being able to control the Russian state. Ultimately, he's a fat lazy coward who makes money from cooking gourmet meals and employing thugs to steal diamond mines. He's never actually shown the slightest sign of administrative ability. On his own admission Wagner are underresourced and badly run.

    So even if the FSB don't make him have an unfortunate accident with a window, or a day trip to Salisbury, I can't see him lasting even in the event he wins.

    But equally if the regime collapses it seems unlikely one of Putin's henchmen could take over.

    What would the likely outcome be? Military dictatorship? Open control by the FSB?
    The FSB are big losers so far. The short answer is I think several short lived leaders from different factions. The Chinese are backing Mistushshin, Patrushev neither father nor son do not want the gig. The speech looks recorded, so where Putin is now is an open question.
    How can you say the speech "looks recorded"?
    A couple of technical glitches half way through...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    I’ll be interested to hear our regular Saturday morning visitor’s take on events overnight.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Farooq said:

    The interesting thing will be how this changes things on the frontline.

    - Russia has just seen its effective army reduced by 25,000 men.
    - It will probably need the same again just to hold back Wagner assuming the frontline troops don't wheel in behind them
    - Rostov was the control and supply centre of the Russian army and is no longer functioning
    - Russia runs a centralised command system so now the frontline has no-one to give orders and there will be supply issues

    In the short term at least Ukraine just acquired a big advantage and needs to use it

    I can't help the feeling that this is an elaborate feint to tempt the Ukrainian forces forward into a trap
    Honestly, if so then its a feint rather similar to the sheriff taking himself hostage in Blazing Saddles.

    Most of the army is now neutral. that is collapse of the regime territory.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    A metaphor for the continuation, in the short term, of the SMO.

    A somewhat surreal sight in Rostov as street cleaners continue on their Saturday morning duties.
    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1672452358658306049
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    I’ll be interested to hear our regular Saturday morning visitor’s take on events overnight.

    It will be a good weather vane. He might come on praising Prigozhin in which case the party is over for Vlad or he might come on with some interesting new analysis that Vaccines are bad, Gays are worse, BA pilots die and you should always have pineapple on Radiohead.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344
    Nigelb said:

    As evidence of lack of plan in place.

    “Now, commercials. And then… commercials.”

    Russian state TV is in chaos as anchors wait for info on producers who themselves need instructions from the Kremlin on how to cover this attempted coup. Today has been lots of ads & occasional, very brief MOD statements.

    https://twitter.com/mjluxmoore/status/1672497184024203265

    Gives them time to buff up their CV's for Al Jazeera....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Hard to argue with your comments
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Video of Yevgeny Prigozhin meeting with Deputy Defense Minister Yunus-bek Yevkurov at the Southern Military District HQ.
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1672463016586014720
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    Aren't the ones currently in Zaporizhzhia meant to be the best?
    People said Putin had a special brigade/corps of soldiers dedicated to his personal security, with a separate command structure to the regular armed forces. So, presumably, they are fortifying Moscow, but will they fight Wagner?

    I see on twitter that there were reports of some fighting at a couple of points on Wagner's journey to Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh, so some poor suckers are following orders and fighting against Wagner.
    But if two cities with populations of over a million have fallen without significance resistance, then doesn't that already amount to mutiny on the part of the regular army?
    Yes it does.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Jonathan said:

    If Wagner are mercenaries, who is paying them?

    African gold, they collect it by the ton.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344
    Does Prigozhin have any interest in keeping Lukashenko in place in Belarus, I wonder?

    He might just be happy to take those newly-installed nukes off his hands - and then leave his regime to its fate. A democratic (and quickly inducted NATO member) on its border would be a huge win for Ukraine.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Sandpit said:

    He’s speaking!

    verbal diahorrea as well
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Cicero said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    Aren't the ones currently in Zaporizhzhia meant to be the best?
    People said Putin had a special brigade/corps of soldiers dedicated to his personal security, with a separate command structure to the regular armed forces. So, presumably, they are fortifying Moscow, but will they fight Wagner?

    I see on twitter that there were reports of some fighting at a couple of points on Wagner's journey to Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh, so some poor suckers are following orders and fighting against Wagner.
    But if two cities with populations of over a million have fallen without significance resistance, then doesn't that already amount to mutiny on the part of the regular army?
    Yes it does.
    There is a video purporting to show the Deputy Defence Minister meeting Prigozhin after being captured in Rostov. Which seems to have let Wagner in without firing a shot in defence.

    If so, that's pretty extraordinary.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1672463016586014720
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    On Topic our entire system is broken
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062

    Does Prigozhin have any interest in keeping Lukashenko in place in Belarus, I wonder?

    He might just be happy to take those newly-installed nukes off his hands - and then leave his regime to its fate. A democratic (and quickly inducted NATO member) on its border would be a huge win for Ukraine.

    Belarus can not be held against its will, if Lukashenka has fled. It would be a huge win for NATO too, since it widens the Suwalki gap from 70 km to more than 700km.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    Morning Malc

    Getting seriously worried now about this shortage of turnips.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Be interesting in Belaru snow it seems Lukashenko has loaded his plane with gold and legged it as well.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,502

    Still a not insignificant prospect that this is all theatre. Putler hands Prigozhin Shoigu’s head on a platter and on we go.

    But Putler appears to be coming out swinging. Bring on the popcorn.

    The only way I can see some kind of theatre between Putin and Prigozhin making sense is if Prigozhin is supplying Putin with a stab-in-the-back narrative to explain being defeated by Ukraine.
    That's possible. But the simple Occam's Razor interpretation is that we're seeing a straightforward showdown. Prigozhin's recent breoadcasts would come close to treason in any country during wartime, including what appear to be a number of outright lies aimed at damaging the military. He and the Wagner group have been extremely useful to Putin up to now, which is why he hasn't been locked up or worse already. However, the move to put all his forces under direct contract to the military would undermine his power base, and that's prompted him to open rebellion. I'd expect Putin now to want to crush him quickly.

    Whether Putin will be able to is another question - but the US Institute for the Study of War thinks he has wildly miscalculated. The next question is of course how far this undermines Russia's front against Ukraine. If Ukraine has a second attempt at a major counter-offensive poised to go, as reported, then there could hardly be better circumstances for it. It even gives Putin a sort of exit strategy, as you say - "we would have held on unless we'd been betrayed". Conversely, if Ukraine still doesn't get more than a few villages in the next month, it does suggest that they don't have the potential for a major breakthrough this year.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,396
    June 23rd, eh?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,474
    ydoethur said:

    Maybe he's just getting Darth Putin to write a few gags for him.

    I’m beginning to think that giving a psychopath his own private army of criminals was not a good idea.

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1672352361161924608?t=cOw0mfTp7sA2O7ZBAh2zrQ&s=19
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Nah

    ...Conversely, if Ukraine still doesn't get more than a few villages in the next month, it does suggest that they don't have the potential for a major breakthrough this year.

    That doesn't follow.

    That nature of the defences established by Russia in occupied territory are such that it might take a month or two to degrade the defences and the forces manning them to the point where a breakthrough is achievable, assuming that the Russian forces there stand their ground in the context of confusion and conflict in Russia.

    We don't know anything yet about how the Prigozhin rebellion is affecting logistics or command and control.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Maybe he's just getting Darth Putin to write a few gags for him.

    I’m beginning to think that giving a psychopath his own private army of criminals was not a good idea.

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1672352361161924608?t=cOw0mfTp7sA2O7ZBAh2zrQ&s=19
    The genius of that tweet is you can read it two ways...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Are there Betfair markets up for the next leaders of Russia, and Belarus ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    Still a not insignificant prospect that this is all theatre. Putler hands Prigozhin Shoigu’s head on a platter and on we go.

    But Putler appears to be coming out swinging. Bring on the popcorn.

    The only way I can see some kind of theatre between Putin and Prigozhin making sense is if Prigozhin is supplying Putin with a stab-in-the-back narrative to explain being defeated by Ukraine.
    That's possible. But the simple Occam's Razor interpretation is that we're seeing a straightforward showdown. Prigozhin's recent breoadcasts would come close to treason in any country during wartime, including what appear to be a number of outright lies aimed at damaging the military. He and the Wagner group have been extremely useful to Putin up to now, which is why he hasn't been locked up or worse already. However, the move to put all his forces under direct contract to the military would undermine his power base, and that's prompted him to open rebellion. I'd expect Putin now to want to crush him quickly.

    Whether Putin will be able to is another question - but the US Institute for the Study of War thinks he has wildly miscalculated. The next question is of course how far this undermines Russia's front against Ukraine. If Ukraine has a second attempt at a major counter-offensive poised to go, as reported, then there could hardly be better circumstances for it. It even gives Putin a sort of exit strategy, as you say - "we would have held on unless we'd been betrayed". Conversely, if Ukraine still doesn't get more than a few villages in the next month, it does suggest that they don't have the potential for a major breakthrough this year.
    Putin has called it treason this morning.
    Extraordinarily unlikely that this is staged.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Darth Putin is having a good morning:

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB

    “I gave a psychopath his own army of criminals and they broke the law & betrayed me. The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.”

    “My war is both in Ukraine and now also in Russia. I told Alina it’s proof men can multitask.”

    “The war the West started against us now means we have make Rostov look like Bakhmut.”
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    I guess one of the problems with committing your whole army to Ukraine is that no-one is left to defend the road to Moscow if a random mercenary army decides to turn against you.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    Morning Malc

    Getting seriously worried now about this shortage of turnips.
    It is all this sunshine, we are not used to it , was happy to get some rain last night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Wagner PMC Telegram channel:

    "Putin made the wrong choice. All the worse for him. Soon we will have a new president"

    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672511322083270659

    As Machiavelli advised, put not your trust in mercenaries.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Lol:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1672508909590831104

    Putin: “Whatever happens, it already feels like we’ve won lads. We’ve put Wagner on the back foot, and entertained the world…”
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Sandpit said:

    Darth Putin is having a good morning:

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB

    “I gave a psychopath his own army of criminals and they broke the law & betrayed me. The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.”

    “My war is both in Ukraine and now also in Russia. I told Alina it’s proof men can multitask.”

    “The war the West started against us now means we have make Rostov look like Bakhmut.”

    I liked this one:

    "I’m not worried about this coup. Given how long it took Wagner to get Bakhmut they’ll not get to Moscow before 2049."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    Morning Malc

    Getting seriously worried now about this shortage of turnips.
    It is all this sunshine, we are not used to it , was happy to get some rain last night.
    Apologies for my rudeness Ydoethur, Good Morning. Just got Wordle in 3 so good start , just have to hope my current bad run at horses comes to an end today.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Darth Putin is having a good morning:

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB

    “I gave a psychopath his own army of criminals and they broke the law & betrayed me. The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.”

    “My war is both in Ukraine and now also in Russia. I told Alina it’s proof men can multitask.”

    “The war the West started against us now means we have make Rostov look like Bakhmut.”

    I liked this one:

    "I’m not worried about this coup. Given how long it took Wagner to get Bakhmut they’ll not get to Moscow before 2049."
    Later this evening, then.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Morning all!
    Is it going to be one of those moments in the world direction of travel?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Farooq said:

    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    ok boomer
    BOOM BOOM
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    FF43 said:

    I guess one of the problems with committing your whole army to Ukraine is that no-one is left to defend the road to Moscow if a random mercenary army decides to turn against you.

    He has troops and his Praetorian guard. The question is whether they are willing to fight for him.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,396

    Talking of Boris, I think he's finally cracked. His Mail column today is a paean to the Titanic explorers who died, who were "pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge" - their exploration made him proud to be British and, of course he has a dig at "sneering lefties".

    But most remarkably, he claims the explorers were trying to "democratise the ocean floor". WTF?

    Well, punters paying $250,000 a pop to get what they want certainly sounds like BoJo's idea of democracy
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited June 2023
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    Morning Malc

    Getting seriously worried now about this shortage of turnips.
    It is all this sunshine, we are not used to it , was happy to get some rain last night.
    Apologies for my rudeness Ydoethur, Good Morning. Just got Wordle in 3 so good start , just have to hope my current bad run at horses comes to an end today.
    Rudeness? Blimey Malc, if you think *that's* rude I'm really worried now. Not even a single word of invective! :smile:

    Hope the gees run better for you, btw.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Nigelb said:

    Are there Betfair markets up for the next leaders of Russia, and Belarus ?

    There's a smarkets market on next russian election. I'm on Putin at about even money
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,633
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    Back in 2016 when the National Guard was established, composed of Interior Ministry troops but now under the direct control of the Kremlin, that was seen as an ominous sign by Russia watchers. But in a crackdown on dissent sense, not in a fend off an actual coup attempt sense. Perhaps Putin's grip on power was weaker than people realised at the time.

    Putin's problem now is that he is reliant on groups with unknown loyalties. I doubt that he has any better idea what will happen than we do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Russian Telegram channels report that Wagner PMCs have entered Voronezh and are on the outskirts of Krasnodar and Volgograd. No one is resisting the militants.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672512610263080960

    Numbers don’t count if everyone is either too scared, or too confused to fight you.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Meanwhile, window dressing.

    Wagner Group billboards are being taken down across Moscow.
    https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1672513036329033728
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited June 2023

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    Tories lose the pensioner and slavering potential house inheritor vote? Do what is good for the country as opposed to good for the party? That would be remarkable.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    As Boris Johnson proudly scans his Daily Mail column celebrating the daring-do bravery of the Titan submariners in the face of socialism, he might look up at the screen on the wall and observe Putin meeting his Waterloo on Sunak's watch.

    A penny for his thoughts? "My, my, if only I hadn't had one too many Abba karaoke parties, Churchillian victory would be mine".
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    And HS2 isn't in itself unreasonable at all, because of the capacity expansion. Though arguably the way it is being chopped up is a hugely inefficient way to spend money (no link to HS1 early on, now ending at Old Oak, etc.)
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,706

    On Topic our entire system is broken

    Try

    sudo apt update --fix-missing
    sudo apt install -f

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited June 2023

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    At risk of being pedantic, if you have a 0% freeze that means something isn't frozen.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    The important factor for the real war is that Rostov is the main supply base for the whole of the Russian army in Ukraine. Not only are those supplies falling into the hands of Wagner but they will no longer being supplied to the Russian army. Given the intensity of current fighting that is going to be a major problem very soon. How long before the Russian artillery falls silent? Before the tanks and mobile artillery run out of fuel?

    The opportunities for a break through here at substantially less cost than feared are significant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Numerous Russian officials announce their staying loyal to Putin. Pushilin, Saldo, Aksyonov, Rogozin, Pasechnik.
    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672512604235808768

    More window dressing, without direct action.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Nigelb said:

    Russian Telegram channels report that Wagner PMCs have entered Voronezh and are on the outskirts of Krasnodar and Volgograd. No one is resisting the militants.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672512610263080960

    Numbers don’t count if everyone is either too scared, or too confused to fight you.

    This is what they thought would happen on the road to Kiev, in late February 2022.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited June 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    And HS2 isn't in itself unreasonable at all, because of the capacity expansion. Though arguably the way it is being chopped up is a hugely inefficient way to spend money (no link to HS1 early on, now ending at Old Oak, etc.)
    I suspect the reason it is being chopped up is to try and cancel it by stealth. Not because it is unnecessary - it's urgently needed for capacity, as you say - but because the DfT don't like railways and the Treasury don't like spending money on useful things rather than bribes to their client groups.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344
    Nigelb said:

    Numerous Russian officials announce their staying loyal to Putin. Pushilin, Saldo, Aksyonov, Rogozin, Pasechnik.
    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672512604235808768

    More window dressing, without direct action.

    More window descents, in due course.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    Nigelb said:

    Russian Telegram channels report that Wagner PMCs have entered Voronezh and are on the outskirts of Krasnodar and Volgograd. No one is resisting the militants.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672512610263080960

    Numbers don’t count if everyone is either too scared, or too confused to fight you.

    These things have a way of snowballing, as when Napoleon escaped from Elba.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    The most effective means of countering inflation is probably to impose significant tax increases on the wealthy. The fact that the Conservatives won't do this is unsurprising, and the fact that Labour isn't pushing for this tells you that they are also, in fact, conservatives.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Nigelb said:

    Russian Telegram channels report that Wagner PMCs have entered Voronezh and are on the outskirts of Krasnodar and Volgograd. No one is resisting the militants.
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672512610263080960

    Numbers don’t count if everyone is either too scared, or too confused to fight you.

    Vlad better call the Chinese
This discussion has been closed.