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Mordaunt second favourite to succeed Sunak as CON leader – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited June 2023 in General
imageMordaunt second favourite to succeed Sunak as CON leader – politicalbetting.com

Clearly the exit of BoJo has had an impact on the next Tory leader betting and the Smarkets market above shows where things stand now.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    First.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    God, not the useless Badenoch, she's nearly as bad as Braverman.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,193
    She may well lose her seat
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,307
    The Badenoch thing seems a tad mysterious. Surely the Tories aren't still doing 'Let's have an ethnic-minority leader cos that will sock it to Labour and the Left.'
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,801
    No wonder she gets lots of media attention. She is a blonde, like Mr Johnson.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    The Badenoch thing seems a tad mysterious. Surely the Tories aren't still doing 'Let's have an ethnic-minority leader cos that will sock it to Labour and the Left.'

    She bashes the woke which is why she is liked but she's done sod all on the Post Office scandal.

    As Cyclefree has noted Labour's Darren Jones has more of an impact than Badenoch.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290
    The paucity of obvious talent is remarkable

    The Tories need to go into opposition simply to rebuild. For younger figures to hone their skills fighting a Labour givernment
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Can someone do a spread market on the birth year of the next Tory Prime Minister?

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    Strange headline. Is Mordaunt being second favourite more surprising than Badenoch being favourite?

    Also, I'm surprised Johnson hasn't appeared on that chart anytime in the last 8 months.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited June 2023
    Barclay is the value bet and will receive the backing of most Tory MPs who backed Sunak in 2021 who are re elected most likely.

    Mordaunt is a solid performer but too woke and anti Boris for most Tory members. Cleverly is too lightweight and likely lacks MP support. Badenoch like last year will also likely fail to make the final 3 with Tory MPs, albeit could win if she went to the members vote. Wallace won't stand as he didn't last time either.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    It's worth remembering that, excellent as she was at wielding a ceremonial sword, Penny Mordaunt was all over the place during the last-but-one leadership contest. Essentially, the more she spoke, the more her support faltered.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,442
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Unpopular said:

    geoffw said:

    Did they blow themselves up?

    I've been trying to get my head around the strength of the physical forces that would have acted on the sub, water coming in fast enough to cut you in half, or just simply 'explode', which it obviously can't do because of the pressure involved on the sub makes an explosion impossible.

    I'm guessing the force of the decompression just ripped the whole thing to pieces?
    Compression not decompression, implosion not explosion. It will crumple inwards, like an empty plastic bottle you suck the air out of.
    Any theories on why it would happen
    Carbon fibre for pressure vessels has a troubled history.

    Submarine pressure hulls (metal) are often limited to x number of compression/decompression cycles.

    Even if the carbon fibre starts out perfect, the repeated compression cycle will eventually cause failure. The layers of carbon fibre will start to delaminate.

    The safety engineer who got fired, stated that the quality of the layup of the carbon fibre was far from perfect. He also said that the quality was untested, directly. And that the system to monitor failure in the carbon fibre wouldn’t work, since it would only give an indication when it was already too late.

    In addition the end cap and window for the vessel weren’t rated for 4000m.
    So all in all, it probably wasn't a great idea to dive to the Titanic in it?
    Just reflecting that 3500 m is about 350 bar pressure - ie 350 atmospheres. 5000lb psi, just about. The *peak* pressure in a diesel cylinder is about two-thirds of that for a turbocharged diesel.
    If it failed, the phenomenon called dieseling probably occurred - the pressure rise would have been so sudden and violent that the contents of the pressure hull would have exploded like the charge in a diesel engine cylinder.

    So implosion, taking milliseconds, followed by an explosion.

    On the upside, certain death, faster than you could start to realise something was happening, let alone feel pain.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290
    edited June 2023
    fpt for @TOPPING


    "It was never cheap vs good champagne marques. Only recently they've started to discount it a bit to bring it down to around £30 a bottle."


    ++++++

    I did a blind test the other day. A really good Nyetimber versus a similarly priced and supposedly good champagne

    The Nyetimber won, hands down: more complex, interesting, juicy, delicious. The best English fizz is now absolutely world class
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590
    post GE 1997 - William Hague

    post GE 2024 - William Hague Lite = Kemi Badenoch?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited June 2023

    post GE 1997 - William Hague

    post GE 2024 - William Hague Lite = Kemi Badenoch?

    No Badenoch is more John Redwood policy wise, Redwood also stood in 1997 and came 3rd behind Hague and Clarke
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986

    Strange headline. Is Mordaunt being second favourite more surprising than Badenoch being favourite?

    Also, I'm surprised Johnson hasn't appeared on that chart anytime in the last 8 months.

    James Cleverly third is even more indicative of the paucity of talent.
    Anonymous and nominatively non-determinitive.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290

    It's worth remembering that, excellent as she was at wielding a ceremonial sword, Penny Mordaunt was all over the place during the last-but-one leadership contest. Essentially, the more she spoke, the more her support faltered.

    BUT, she was - we now realise - dealing with a hideous family trauma in the background. That might - might - explain her poor performance

    Since then she has done pretty well. And, more importantly, the Tories have very little choice. She's not posh and she speaks well in the Commons. She's probably their best bet
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,307
    HYUFD said:

    post GE 1997 - William Hague

    post GE 2024 - William Hague Lite = Kemi Badenoch?

    No Badenoch is more John Redwood policy wise, Redwood also stood in 1997 and came 3rd behind Hague and Clarke
    And will be about as politically irrelevant as Redwood was I suspect.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Leon said:

    It's worth remembering that, excellent as she was at wielding a ceremonial sword, Penny Mordaunt was all over the place during the last-but-one leadership contest. Essentially, the more she spoke, the more her support faltered.

    BUT, she was - we now realise - dealing with a hideous family trauma in the background. That might - might - explain her poor performance

    Since then she has done pretty well. And, more importantly, the Tories have very little choice. She's not posh and she speaks well in the Commons. She's probably their best bet
    They could certainly do a lot worse, that's for sure.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290
    TimS said:

    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.

    I've seen English Fizz on the winelist in a couple of ultra-posh restaurants, one in Asia the other Italy (IIRC)

    So it is perhaps beginning to be recognised, outside the UK, as high quality wine, with a snob value
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited June 2023

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,259

    Leon said:

    It's worth remembering that, excellent as she was at wielding a ceremonial sword, Penny Mordaunt was all over the place during the last-but-one leadership contest. Essentially, the more she spoke, the more her support faltered.

    BUT, she was - we now realise - dealing with a hideous family trauma in the background. That might - might - explain her poor performance

    Since then she has done pretty well. And, more importantly, the Tories have very little choice. She's not posh and she speaks well in the Commons. She's probably their best bet
    They could certainly do a lot worse, that's for sure.
    Is her seat safe?

    Is any Tory seat safe after today's news?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290
    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    Yes, if the Tories want a serious chance at returning after one term, Mordaunt is the choice. Badenoch (much as I approve of her fierce anti-Wokeness) will indicate they are turning in on themselves, and pursuing ideological warfare

    Mordaunt is untainted by Boris or the Brexit strife, in public perception. And she certainly isn't a privately schooled billionaire
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    Yes, if the Tories want a serious chance at returning after one term, Mordaunt is the choice. Badenoch (much as I approve of her fierce anti-Wokeness) will indicate they are turning in on themselves, and pursuing ideological warfare

    Mordaunt is untainted by Boris or the Brexit strife, in public perception. And she certainly isn't a privately schooled billionaire
    Yes she went to a comp like Truss but didn't even go to Oxford like Truss but Reading. Sir Keir who went to a grammar school turned private school and Oxford for postgrad would look posh relative to her
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Kemi is a clear lay.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.

    I've seen English Fizz on the winelist in a couple of ultra-posh restaurants, one in Asia the other Italy (IIRC)

    So it is perhaps beginning to be recognised, outside the UK, as high quality wine, with a snob value
    Production is still very small by world standards (much less than 1% of sparkling wine made worldwide), with plenty of demand domestically, so it's not surprising that it's not often seen outside the UK. But the investment by prestigious champagne houses shows that it has certainly been noticed.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,960
    A lot can happen between now and say 2028. Who knows which amazing potential leader wins a seat in the 2025 Tory landslide to take over from Rishi once he has saved the country with his clever plan over the next 18 months. It could be his post election chancellor Alex Chalk having smashed the Lib Dem’s in Cheltenham. More interesting is who is next Labour leader after Sir Keir’s corbynesque failure.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Fpt

    Two more Spanish polls today both giving a likely majority simple for PP, requiring Vox acquiescence to rule. With 2 weeks before the 3 week campaign starts the polling so far is very stable.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Perhaps Starmer will win 500 seats and a load of paper candidates will accidently hold the balance of power.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    You’re finally conceding to your PB nemesis, Heathener?

    No more early morning sparring with her?

    That’s sad.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    In one of his books, the journalist and political writer Steve Richards points out that a member of a political party, no matter how able or electorally attractive, cannot accede to the leadership if they disagree with a central tenet on the party's values. The example he gave was Ken Clarke over Europe, but I think Penny Mordaunt on trans is the same issue. Unless and until the party reverses its stance or - more likely if they are wiped out - regards it as less salient, Penny Swordwielder will never lead the land of the Blue.

    I'd really like to give a link to a tweet or something, but as it came from an actual book I'll just have to link to Waterstones and remind you that libraries exist.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-prime-ministers-we-never-had/steve-richards/9781838952426

    Also he has a new book coming out later this year

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/turning-points/steve-richards-media-limited/steve-richards/9781035015351
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    HYUFD said:

    Barclay is the value bet and will receive the backing of most Tory MPs who backed Sunak in 2021 who are re elected most likely.

    Mordaunt is a solid performer but too woke and anti Boris for most Tory members. Cleverly is too lightweight and likely lacks MP support. Badenoch like last year will also likely fail to make the final 3 with Tory MPs, albeit could win if she went to the members vote. Wallace won't stand as he didn't last time either.

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate. The younger ones remaining may well give Mordaunt a punt.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,290

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.

    I've seen English Fizz on the winelist in a couple of ultra-posh restaurants, one in Asia the other Italy (IIRC)

    So it is perhaps beginning to be recognised, outside the UK, as high quality wine, with a snob value
    Production is still very small by world standards (much less than 1% of sparkling wine made worldwide), with plenty of demand domestically, so it's not surprising that it's not often seen outside the UK. But the investment by prestigious champagne houses shows that it has certainly been noticed.
    Of course the relative rarity adds to the appeal of English Fizz, for a certain kind of moneyed drinker

    That is certainly how it was being sold in these restaurants: as something rare and precious and expensive that you could boast about to your friends, and sound worldly
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    Leon said:

    It's worth remembering that, excellent as she was at wielding a ceremonial sword, Penny Mordaunt was all over the place during the last-but-one leadership contest. Essentially, the more she spoke, the more her support faltered.

    BUT, she was - we now realise - dealing with a hideous family trauma in the background. That might - might - explain her poor performance

    Since then she has done pretty well. And, more importantly, the Tories have very little choice. She's not posh and she speaks well in the Commons. She's probably their best bet
    They could certainly do a lot worse, that's for sure.
    Is her seat safe?

    Is any Tory seat safe after today's news?
    On paper, no. But she does her constituency work, makes the most of her (objectively, pretty meagre) navy connections, and both Labour and LibDems will be shooting for her seat. She could be a good value bet when the next GE seat markers go up.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barclay is the value bet and will receive the backing of most Tory MPs who backed Sunak in 2021 who are re elected most likely.

    Mordaunt is a solid performer but too woke and anti Boris for most Tory members. Cleverly is too lightweight and likely lacks MP support. Badenoch like last year will also likely fail to make the final 3 with Tory MPs, albeit could win if she went to the members vote. Wallace won't stand as he didn't last time either.

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate. The younger ones remaining may well give Mordaunt a punt.
    The average Tory member is 60 not 90
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,290

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barclay is the value bet and will receive the backing of most Tory MPs who backed Sunak in 2021 who are re elected most likely.

    Mordaunt is a solid performer but too woke and anti Boris for most Tory members. Cleverly is too lightweight and likely lacks MP support. Badenoch like last year will also likely fail to make the final 3 with Tory MPs, albeit could win if she went to the members vote. Wallace won't stand as he didn't last time either.

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate. The younger ones remaining may well give Mordaunt a punt.
    The average Tory member is 60 not 90
    IQ points?
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,134
    If those three are the best the Tory party has to offer, the decline really must be terminal.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    Because it was a tiny ship at enormous depth?

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    edited June 2023

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.

    I've seen English Fizz on the winelist in a couple of ultra-posh restaurants, one in Asia the other Italy (IIRC)

    So it is perhaps beginning to be recognised, outside the UK, as high quality wine, with a snob value
    Production is still very small by world standards (much less than 1% of sparkling wine made worldwide), with plenty of demand domestically, so it's not surprising that it's not often seen outside the UK. But the investment by prestigious champagne houses shows that it has certainly been noticed.
    My brethren at Winegb are forever worrying about English overproduction. Sometimes they need to be brought back to ground on actual volumes.

    I am in pre-production stage (2 year old vines) and facing the dilemma of market positioning. Unlike many vineyards I don’t have the space (or time or interest) in becoming essentially a hospitality venue that happens to make wine, which is how many of them break even. And I’m not big enough nor are yields high enough to go cheap. So I have to be premium. But there are 3 routes to premium: natural wine / trendy hipster labels, POSH in the style of the parasol-touting houses like Nyetimber, Simpsons and Gusbourne, or the as-yet not very well developed boutique market: grower sparklings. I’m going for the latter but it’s not easy without a big marketing budget.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    HYUFD said:

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
    Alternatively, it has only been eight years that the Conservatives have been in power on their own.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,038
    edited June 2023
    So... the abortion debate personified:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65923956

    An evil woman, or a heroine?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    Yes, if the Tories want a serious chance at returning after one term...
    Why would they? At this moment in time, they don't know what they're doing. They don't have a guiding ideology any more after Truss exploded on the pad, and the only replacement in sight is National Conservatism. They may well prefer licking the forbidden fruit (Orban sooo gooood) instead of doing some actual governing. I'm sure Sunak doesn't like standing in front of workers like a real boy and saying words he doesn't believe to an audience that don't like him. He can cheerfully just let it go, put "Prime Minister" on his CV and hit the lecture circuit, followed by a sinecure in a fashionable US state whilst his wife spends her money on things that aren't British.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    FPT: (rcs) “Agree re German wines. And while I love Nyetimber, I think that ship has already sailed; it is no longer cheap compared to similar Champagne, and looks downright expensive against US sparkling wine.”

    Nyetimber has in my view a way to go. It’s seriously good stuff and their top sites have only just come on stream. They have a large planting round the corner from my vineyard and it’s (even) better terroir than mine. Certainly for Chardonnay. Their blanc de blancs was in the MW tasting exam this year.

    Thing with ESW is it’s been discovered by the rich British but not yet by the world. The downside of course is the top bottles are already £100+ so I suppose don’t quite fit the brief.

    I've seen English Fizz on the winelist in a couple of ultra-posh restaurants, one in Asia the other Italy (IIRC)

    So it is perhaps beginning to be recognised, outside the UK, as high quality wine, with a snob value
    Being able to palm off poor quality over-acidic white wine as some sort of premium product, because it’s been run through the soda stream, is base camp as far as credible wine making is concerned.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
    I would have thought that extremely high pressure would very effectively smother it.

    Effectively you have 20 cubic meters imploding into 1 cubic meter and a small amount of gas escaping.

    That's not a lot of noise.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
    Alternatively, it has only been eight years that the Conservatives have been in power on their own.
    And Major in 1992 was the only PM since 1945 to win a general election after more than 8 consecutive years of their party in power too
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,482

    post GE 1997 - William Hague

    post GE 2024 - William Hague Lite = Kemi Badenoch?

    Nah. Barclay is more like Hague (or EdM); significant figure in the old government, thinks like a government man, likely to flounder in opposition, because it's a different game.

    If history really rhymes, the sequence will be Barclay (loses), Badenoch (blows up), Mordaunt (loses, but respectably), someone unknown (the next Conservative PM).

    Ten years doesn't take long if you say it quickly.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
    I would have thought that extremely high pressure would very effectively smother it.

    Effectively you have 20 cubic meters imploding into 1 cubic meter and a small amount of gas escaping.

    That's not a lot of noise.
    If I remember my propellor design YouTubes correctly, if you compress air that rapidly in water it releases heat energy and a distinctive "pop". But having said that, they were a long way down... :(

    It's just kicked in. They are really dead. Damn. :(
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786
    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
    I would have thought that extremely high pressure would very effectively smother it.

    Effectively you have 20 cubic meters imploding into 1 cubic meter and a small amount of gas escaping.

    That's not a lot of noise.
    If I remember my propellor design YouTubes correctly, if you compress air that rapidly in water it releases heat energy and a distinctive "pop". But having said that, they were a long way down... :(

    It's just kicked in. They are really dead. Damn. :(
    This is 1,000 times better than the worst case scenario of hanging in there for 4 days, and I don't think a miracle rescue was ever really on the cards.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2023
    TimS said:


    My brethren at Winegb are forever worrying about English overproduction. Sometimes they need to be bright back to ground on actual volumes.

    I am in pre-production stage (2 year old vines) and facing the dilemma of market positioning. Unlike many vineyards I don’t have the space (or time of interest) in becoming essentially a hospitality venue that happens to make wine, which is how many of them break even. And I’m not big enough nor are yields high enough to go cheap. So I have to be premium. But there are 3 routes to premium: natural wine / trendy hipster labels, POSH in the style of the parasol-touting houses like Nyetimber, Simpsons and Gusbourne, or the as-yet not very well developed boutique market: grower sparklings. I’m going for the latter but it’s not easy without a big marketing budget.

    I think the market for good-quality small vineyards will develop very nicely. One of our local producers is Fox & Fox, who are quite small but make very good sparkling wines, and they seem to be doing well. The key is consistent quality.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
    Alternatively, it has only been eight years that the Conservatives have been in power on their own.
    So the apposite question is how long before they get that opportunity again?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    edited June 2023
    IanB2 said:

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate...

    No they are not. Given life expectancies and the late-life care which your older Conservative Party member can no doubt afford, somebody mid-seventies will have about fifteen years in front of them. Unpleasant years, but still there and still capable of putting a cross on a postal vote form.

    We keep saying that they are dying off, but there are A LOT of pensioners and for around the next ten-fifteen years they will remain the dominant force in British politics. When it switches it will switch fast as they begin to be outnumbered by younger votes in sufficient proportion to outweigh differential turnout by age, but until then it will be pensionerism all the way... :(

  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
    Well, bang(s) WERE heard and reported; perhaps they were the submersible imploding?
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    Roger that. I had some still white made from Madeleine Angevine a bit ago, which took me back 40 years to when wine as disgusting as that was commonplace.

    on the plus side you can get Nyetimber on offer at 20 a bottle from Morrisons - rebadged as best English sparkling.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649

    TimS said:


    My brethren at Winegb are forever worrying about English overproduction. Sometimes they need to be bright back to ground on actual volumes.

    I am in pre-production stage (2 year old vines) and facing the dilemma of market positioning. Unlike many vineyards I don’t have the space (or time of interest) in becoming essentially a hospitality venue that happens to make wine, which is how many of them break even. And I’m not big enough nor are yields high enough to go cheap. So I have to be premium. But there are 3 routes to premium: natural wine / trendy hipster labels, POSH in the style of the parasol-touting houses like Nyetimber, Simpsons and Gusbourne, or the as-yet not very well developed boutique market: grower sparklings. I’m going for the latter but it’s not easy without a big marketing budget.

    I think the market for good-quality small vineyards will develop very nicely. One of our local producers is Fox & Fox, who are quite small but make very good sparkling wines, and they seem to be doing well. The key is consistent quality.
    They also handily have a weather station on the Davis vantage pro network so I get to see their live weather. They are less frost prone but cooler in daytime than me.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate...

    No they are not. Given life expectancies and the late-life care which your older Conservative Party member can no doubt afford, somebody mid-seventies will have about fifteen years in front of them. Unpleasant years, but still there and still capable of putting a cross on a postal vote form.

    We keep saying that they are dying off, but there are A LOT of pensioners and for around the next ten-fifteen years they will remain the dominant force in British politics. When it switches it will switch fast as they begin to be outnumbered by younger votes in sufficient proportion to outweigh differential turnout by age, but until then it will be pensionerism all the way... :(

    Even then the median voter will be aged 50 still not 30
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    HYUFD said:

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
    All very well for you to say it's inevitable, you chose the current pair of tosspots who are dragging the party to oblivion.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,786
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    The proof is how it tastes, and almost all English wine these days is decent enough, and some really quite impressive.

    Using odd grapes might sound like a bad idea, but it ain't when it works. In England it seems Bacchus works really rather well.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,038
    edited June 2023

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Explorers Club confirms some of the debris was from the submersible, RIP to those on the vessel and thoughts with their families

    Sad, but not a big surprise. I do wonder though why any sudden implosion wasn't picked up by the US military sensors.
    I don't know how they work. Do they monitor events anywhere in the ocean, or not bother beyond certain depths?

    Bearing in mind as well it was a very small object compared to the things they would usually monitor.
    I don't know enough about it, but I'd have thought a sudden implosion at extremely high pressure would make a fair bit of an underwater bang, and the sensors are said to be very sensitive over considerable distances. I might be completely wrong, of course.
    Sound travels *really* well in water. However, it is also subject to weird effects, such as thermoclines (water of differing temperatures), and if near the bottom, topographies. It was also not a big pressure vessel.

    edit: aiui, we also don't have a great deal of experience of sound at such great depths. Most submarines have crush deaths of 200-1,000 metres. This vessel may have been much deeper, and sound may behave differently.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    Your last couple of posts are like some wine commentator from the 1990s. Or a wine equivalent of that Waterstones man article in this week’s new statesman.

    There’s a relatively big and ambitious planting going on this year in your neck of the woods. At gatcombe park. The issue with winemaking in the IoW is winery facilities but I assume they are building their own. The climate and soils are ideal.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    There's a Bacchus made in Norfolk of all places for a vineyard that's really great. Winbirri I believe is the maker's name.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    edited June 2023

    So... the abortion debate personified:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65923956

    An evil woman, or a heroine?

    I read that, and thought it was odd. Abortion is outside the Overton window in the UK, despite efforts to pull it back, and coverage of the debate in the States can be done by statistical analysis, reportage and interviews with politicians. I don't know why they found it necessary to profile an individual. Although to be fair, when I read it I found it interesting and informative, so there's that. Next week, the BBC interviews Bob Jeb Jebbity-Bob III, who wants to make homosexuality illegal in Alabama.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    The proof is how it tastes, and almost all English wine these days is decent enough, and some really quite impressive.

    Using odd grapes might sound like a bad idea, but it ain't when it works. In England it seems Bacchus works really rather well.
    The 3 most planted vine varieties in England by acreage are Chardonnay, then Pinot noir, then Pinot Meunier. With the decent (though not to my taste) Bacchus 4th. Then a huge gap to the next lot.

    I’ve planted Meunier, Pinot noir, and Melon de Bourgogne which is hardly an obscure variety given it dominates the Loire atlantique.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590

    post GE 1997 - William Hague

    post GE 2024 - William Hague Lite = Kemi Badenoch?

    Nah. Barclay is more like Hague (or EdM); significant figure in the old government, thinks like a government man, likely to flounder in opposition, because it's a different game.

    If history really rhymes, the sequence will be Barclay (loses), Badenoch (blows up), Mordaunt (loses, but respectably), someone unknown (the next Conservative PM).

    Ten years doesn't take long if you say it quickly.
    I was NOT thinking about policy nuances or alternative post-GE24 Tory leaders.

    Instead, that in 1997 the Conservatives rejected their best (in terms of electability) option, Ken Clark, in favor of the relatively untried but right-wing William Hague.

    Who despite enthusiasm of Tory base did NOT surprise on the upside as Conservative "Leader".

    KB appears (to me anyway) to be cut from same cloth, but NOT (even) as impressive as WH.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,038
    viewcode said:

    So... the abortion debate personified:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65923956

    An evil woman, or a heroine?

    I read that, and thought it was odd. Abortion is outside the Overton window in the UK, despite efforts to pull it back, and coverage of the debate in the States can be done by statistical analysis, reportage and interviews with politicians. I don't know why they found it necessary to profile an individual. Although to be fair, when I read it I found it interesting and informative, so there's that. Next week, the BBC interviews Bob Jeb Jebbity-Bob III, who wants to make homosexuality illegal in Alabama.
    She's an individual, but she heads SFLA, a pro-life student group. And according to the article: "SFLA now has 1,400 campus groups in all 50 states"

    So whilst she is just an individual, she may have considerable political power.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    The proof is how it tastes, and almost all English wine these days is decent enough, and some really quite impressive.

    Using odd grapes might sound like a bad idea, but it ain't when it works. In England it seems Bacchus works really rather well.
    The 3 most planted vine varieties in England by acreage are Chardonnay, then Pinot noir, then Pinot Meunier. With the decent (though not to my taste) Bacchus 4th. Then a huge gap to the next lot.

    I’ve planted Meunier, Pinot noir, and Melon de Bourgogne which is hardly an obscure variety given it dominates the Loire atlantique.
    Do you find any merit in the suggestion that English winemakers should just copy the Germans because we have a similar lattitude?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,038
    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Do you believe Starmer has the gravitas a PM needs? If so, why?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    There's a Bacchus made in Norfolk of all places for a vineyard that's really great. Winbirri I believe is the maker's name.
    Meaning apparently wine berry in old Anglo Saxon. I wouldn’t say I loved it but could
    appreciate the purity. Bacchus will disappear
    on the coming decades as the climate gets
    too hot and Sauvignon blanc takes over. SB
    already does well in parts of the South. Mènetou-salon style, ie the more austere Loire version but less full than Sancerre or PF.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,325
    I fancy Penny :blush:
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,251
    edited June 2023
    Just cracked open a bottle of The Wine Society's 2022 Austrian Riesling

    It's described as dry, but I think that's because it has a has a quite sharp and citrussy initial hit, but the flavour afterwards is all off-dry Riesling. It balances rather nicely

    I bet it would go well with oysters and other seafood, but I'm just guzzling it on its own. I might have a bit left when I cook my fishfingers, chips and peas later

    Definitely decent value at a tenner a bottle

    I have priorities

    https://www.thewinesociety.com/product/the-societys-austrian-riesling-2022
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,590
    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    Deeply saddened by such deplorable racism. Fair play for English non-whites!
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Hague would be a different face for the same failed policies.

    Prospective 11th hour leaders are thin on the ground now. Bojo is no longer an option. Penny is the likeliest, having got further in both competitions than anybody else save Boris and Sunak.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649

    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    The proof is how it tastes, and almost all English wine these days is decent enough, and some really quite impressive.

    Using odd grapes might sound like a bad idea, but it ain't when it works. In England it seems Bacchus works really rather well.
    The 3 most planted vine varieties in England by acreage are Chardonnay, then Pinot noir, then Pinot Meunier. With the decent (though not to my taste) Bacchus 4th. Then a huge gap to the next lot.

    I’ve planted Meunier, Pinot noir, and Melon de Bourgogne which is hardly an obscure variety given it dominates the Loire atlantique.
    Do you find any merit in the suggestion that English winemakers should just copy the Germans because we have a similar lattitude?
    That’s what we used to do, but our climate is much more similar to Champagne, Chablis and the Northern Loire than Germany. We’re not continental enough. We still can’t ripen riesling reliably. We do Ok with Pinot gris/grauburgunder. We’ve had much more success with Atlantic-facing varieties.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545
    viewcode said:

    So... the abortion debate personified:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65923956

    An evil woman, or a heroine?

    I read that, and thought it was odd. Abortion is outside the Overton window in the UK, despite efforts to pull it back, and coverage of the debate in the States can be done by statistical analysis, reportage and interviews with politicians. I don't know why they found it necessary to profile an individual. Although to be fair, when I read it I found it interesting and informative, so there's that. Next week, the BBC interviews Bob Jeb Jebbity-Bob III, who wants to make homosexuality illegal in Alabama.
    There are two sorts of Overton window about this in the UK. The legislative one, in which most people mostly support the woman's right to choose, while there is some debate as to exact boundaries and time details. I think this is largely because all alternatives are worse on the whole that the status quo.

    The second window is about how people should act given the freedom women have. This is not about law but social and personal norms. Loads of people think that abortion should be much less common than it is; while I suspect few think there should be more than there are. Many are as uncomfortable with lawful mass abortion as they would be with the entire adult population lawfully smoking 60 a day.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Do you believe Starmer has the gravitas a PM needs? If so, why?
    Yes. Two reasons, firstly his success in the Commons dismantling Boris and Sunak. His raising of the Covid parties issue was instrumental. Secondly, the way Starmer successfully set a new direction for the Labour Party post Corbyn.
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,132
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate...

    No they are not. Given life expectancies and the late-life care which your older Conservative Party member can no doubt afford, somebody mid-seventies will have about fifteen years in front of them. Unpleasant years, but still there and still capable of putting a cross on a postal vote form.

    We keep saying that they are dying off, but there are A LOT of pensioners and for around the next ten-fifteen years they will remain the dominant force in British politics. When it switches it will switch fast as they begin to be outnumbered by younger votes in sufficient proportion to outweigh differential turnout by age, but until then it will be pensionerism all the way... :(

    Even then the median voter will be aged 50 still not 30
    Taking into account both raw demographics and propensity to vote, I believe that the median voter is aged about 55. This value is likely to keep creeping slowly up for the foreseeable, because so many younger people aren't forming families for various reasons, not least the crippling cost. Yet another issue that can be put down to the full spectrum catastrophe that is the British property market.

    Not that this is any real use to the Conservatives in the long run, because people are no longer moving rightwards as they age. Being the party of the landed interest - minted pensioner owner-occupiers, their heirs and rentiers - only wins elections so long as there are enough of those people around to keep voting for you. Those who have neither significant assets nor any realistic prospect of accruing them have nothing to conserve and, consequently, no use for conservatism.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,204
    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    I agree on the first, but not the second. I think if they tried again(again!) with a fourth leader, the third without an election, there would be an unstoppable clamour for a GE. And for taking the piss if nothing else, a crushing defeat.

    Sunak is fine for the role of losing as well as possible. Times up for the Tories. Run out of ideas and the pandemic and Ukraine removed any possible financial wriggle room.

    Time for change. But not just another new Tory PM.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481

    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Do you believe Starmer has the gravitas a PM needs? If so, why?
    He's an eminent KC and former DPP, they are the epitome of gravitas overload.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,204

    I fancy Penny :blush:

    Come on Sunil, the lady has a pulse, so of course you do…
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    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Gravitas is a bit pompous and 19th century as a PM requisite, is it not? Blair sure af didn't have it.

    BTW I am convinced Rishi is having speaking lessons to proletarianise his voice.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,315
    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    But Tory members are so high up the demographic curve that they are dying off at an alarming rate...

    No they are not. Given life expectancies and the late-life care which your older Conservative Party member can no doubt afford, somebody mid-seventies will have about fifteen years in front of them. Unpleasant years, but still there and still capable of putting a cross on a postal vote form.

    We keep saying that they are dying off, but there are A LOT of pensioners and for around the next ten-fifteen years they will remain the dominant force in British politics. When it switches it will switch fast as they begin to be outnumbered by younger votes in sufficient proportion to outweigh differential turnout by age, but until then it will be pensionerism all the way... :(

    I would just gently suggest that as my wife and I close in on our diamond wedding year, considering our ages (79+ & 83) we have never been more content and, whilst obviously not as mobile as we were, these are the best years of a long and contented 'hard working life' with 3 married children (57, 52 & 47) and 5 grandchildren, most of whom live close by

    When the discussion turns to reviling the elderly, the missing element is most each and everyone of them is greatly loved by their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, who certainly would not recognise the opprobrium some want to direct to them and yes, even some of us who voted remain

    The good book says 'honour your father and your mother that your days may be long' and wise words
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,204

    TimS said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    But this evening I’m drinking a basic 11% Mosel Riesling from Lidl and it’s very nice.

    On topic, as someone who’s like to see the Tories in the wilderness for at least two terms I really don’t want Mordaunt. She’s too likeable and sensible sounding. I want a version of IDS in there: in equal parts bonkers and ineffectual.

    A nice Rousanne from the Rhône.
    Lovely. My favourite whites are chewy fudgy Southern Rhône ones, Marsanne-Rousanne and Grenache blanc.
    I'm really quite enamoured of English whites at the moment. The Bacchus grape works very well it seems. Otherwise Puligny Montrachet all the way!
    The giveaway with most English wine is that they use grapes that are unheard of anywhere else in the winemaking world.
    The proof is how it tastes, and almost all English wine these days is decent enough, and some really quite impressive.

    Using odd grapes might sound like a bad idea, but it ain't when it works. In England it seems Bacchus works really rather well.
    The 3 most planted vine varieties in England by acreage are Chardonnay, then Pinot noir, then Pinot Meunier. With the decent (though not to my taste) Bacchus 4th. Then a huge gap to the next lot.

    I’ve planted Meunier, Pinot noir, and Melon de Bourgogne which is hardly an obscure variety given it dominates the Loire atlantique.
    Do you find any merit in the suggestion that English winemakers should just copy the Germans because we have a similar lattitude?
    It’s surely more complex than that. Terroir plus climate are huge factors.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    In the longer term it will be a good thing for your tribe. A properly functioning democracy needs a properly functioning centre right party. And since November 1990 yours hasn’t really been able to figure out what its core principles are. The same could be said for Labour of course but Blair did at least have some vision of radical centrism IMHO.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,315

    HYUFD said:

    I'm starting to think a wipeout is possible, or it will be if Farage comes on the pitch in the 90th minute. I'm hearing core Conservatives giving up now - who are solid base.

    Even my Dad, who's so staunch he makes @HYUFD look like a floating voter, has said they don't deserve another term. And I agreed with him.

    He's never come close to saying anything like that before in his life.

    Yes but almost inevitable. The last PM to win a 5th consecutive general election for his party was the Earl of Liverpool for the Pittite Tories in 1826 when less than 5% of the UK population were able to vote
    All very well for you to say it's inevitable, you chose the current pair of tosspots who are dragging the party to oblivion.
    And you supported Truss - you couldn't make it up
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,038

    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Do you believe Starmer has the gravitas a PM needs? If so, why?
    He's an eminent KC and former DPP, they are the epitome of gravitas overload.
    You evidently need to buy a dictionary... ;)
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,649
    In gastronomic news (I am doing a lazy dinner for the kids) it’s bloody annoying that Chicken Kyiv is harder to pronounce than Chicken Kiev. The pronunciation equivalent of reliance on Nordstream 2.
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    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    Do you believe Starmer has the gravitas a PM needs? If so, why?
    He's an eminent KC and former DPP, they are the epitome of gravitas overload.
    He was a QC and a former DPP when he used his overload of gravitas to point at wallpaper in John Lewis

    Is it the K that makes the difference?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,685
    Watching the highlights of the women's test match between England and Australia on BBC2.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    I am coming to the conclusion that the Sunak experiment has failed. He just does not have the gravitas a PM needs. The Tories need to gamble (again) and get an elder statesman in. Lord Hague would be ideal.

    I agree on the first, but not the second. I think if they tried again(again!) with a fourth leader, the third without an election, there would be an unstoppable clamour for a GE. And for taking the piss if nothing else, a crushing defeat.

    Sunak is fine for the role of losing as well as possible. Times up for the Tories. Run out of ideas and the pandemic and Ukraine removed any possible financial wriggle room.

    Time for change. But not just another new Tory PM.
    Sunak increasingly looks out of his depth, which is fatal to confidence. His failure to standup to Boris makes him look weak. He inspires pity rather than respect. I don't think he can inspire his troops to ride into battle.

    Whereas Hague could outrank and outflank Boris, commands respect and can connect outside the Tory party. I think the troops would turn out for him and the country would prefer him to Sunak. So worth the change.
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