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New YouGov polling finds Tory collapse in its its heartlands – politicalbetting.com

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  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,761
    edited June 2023
    Barnesian said:

    ..

    That looks like a ChatGPT response :grimace: And as we know, ChatGPT isn't good with figures.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    ydoethur said:

    The Liberals split three times in just 15 years (and when I say 'split' I mean, actually had separate organisations standing candidates against each other) to achieve that result. Also extensive changes in the franchise and the rise of a competitor party which was well-funded, well-organised and linked to a pre-existing mass movement.

    I do not say the Tories can't go the same way, but I do say the circumstances they face are not analogous to those of the Liberals from 1916-32.
    It is a constant frustration on this site that whenever one tries to draw even the vaguest analogy someone takes it literally, suggesting a perfect comparison was intended, to discredit it. Perfect analogies are impossible. Of course I’m not saying that exactly, or even substantially, the same thing is going to happen in both cases. The one and only point I was making related to hubris — as I think was clear.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,595
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, try and find a socially conservative, pro Brexit senior civil servant, judge or head of a quango or even FTSE 100 company
    That’s because senior civil servants, judges, heads of quangos and FTSE 100 companies tend to be intelligent people. Intelligent people didn’t vote for Brexit.
  • Barnesian said:

    ..

    Why would 45-79 decrease when you exclude 08-10?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Interest only mortgages are nuts.
    They are fine if you put the equivalent to the repayment element, into a stock market tracker every month. probably outperforms making repayments more often than not.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,812
    edited June 2023

    That's just the rule of law. If you want to get rid of that fine but I wouldn't recommend it.
    It isn't really the rule of law - Cameronite reforms that made quangos quasi-independent have a lot to answer for. Most would agree that the NHS is badly run, but have any of those mismanaging it been dismissed or even challenged?

    *edit - ah I get you were speaking about the Rwanda policy specifically - sure. Just an example that Tory Ministers (especially right wing ones it would appear) aren't part of the elite.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227
    If we joined the Euro we'd be in the ECB. The addition of Kyiv in a few years will keep it generally poor enough to maintain a generally weaker Euro compared to a western Europe only deal and we'd have lower interest rates courtesy of the ECB.

    What's not to like
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    eek said:

    I don't believe that for a second - interest rates were low but the capital repayment in the early years of a mortgage is so low that it hardly makes any difference.

    The issue are 4 fold

    House prices are too high (because supply is dire)
    Wages are too low (it's remarkable how many jobs that paid £30k 13 years ago still pay that now)
    Banks lent people too much over too long a period - with interest rates at 2% loans should have been 20 years max but instead banks were happy to extend to 35 years
    Debts / Monthly repayments that looked affordable when interest rates were 2% don't look so great when rates are 5%+ and still rising.
    Rubbish. When interest rates are low, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are a fraction of those on a repayment mortgage.

    Consider a £200k mortgage. At 1.5%, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are £250 / month. For a repayment mortgage they’re £800 / month.

    You can borrow far, far more on an IO mortgage for the same monthly payment which is why they’re so pro-cyclical & inflationary - they amplify the booms in house prices as people chase the prices up to limit of that which banks are willing to lend. In a more perfect world banks would restrict lending themselves in boom times but the internal incentives just don’t line up to make that happen.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    Barnesian said:

    ..

    Is this ChatGPT output?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,515
    ydoethur said:

    I would have said 3 would make things much worse, as it makes future financial planning very difficult. Yes, I know we've had stable interest rates for a long time but that's abnormal. A more usual scenario is they go up and down like Johnson's trousers.

    Instead, the presumption should be fixes for 7-10 years to give more stability.
    Too much stability reduces flexibility and ensures that when changes do come they can be more extreme than otherwise.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,515

    But freedom of movement didn't reduce wages for low-skilled Brits; it reduced wages for low-skilled occupations. This is an important difference and one that people repeatedly fail to appreciate.

    When freedom of movement ended, we had almost full employment. There weren't hordes of low-skilled Brits sitting around twiddling their thumbs while immigrants did the crap jobs. No, the low-skilled Brits were more likely to have had roles one step up the ladder. When freedom of movement ended, the wages for the crap jobs rose, but to fill those crap jobs, Brits need to take a step down the ladder to a rung that has risen but isn't as high as the one they were on.

    That's why the end of freedom of movement will mean lower, rather than higher, wages for low-skilled Brits. This will gradually become more evident as time goes on.
    In reality those low skilled jobs disappear or are replaced by machines.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    edited June 2023

    That looks like a ChatGPT response :grimace: And as we know, ChatGPT isn't good with figures.
    I've checked the 1979 to 2022 minus 2008-2010 average GDP per capita and it's correct to 0.01%. I have the spreadsheet.

    But you're right to be cautious!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,980
    Farooq said:

    The whole misuse of the concept of "elites" by people like HYUFD strikes me as so much playing with fire. To hear populist narratives coming out of the mouths of "conservatives" is disturbing.

    The danger is that normalising such language opens the door of the town hall to far worse people than either the stupid conservatives speaking like this or the stupid people they are trying to attack.

    Populism isn't a plaything. It's a vicious weapon that should only be unleashed when it's really, really needed. If your target is tweedy academics and pride flags, you can be damn sure it's not needed.
    Yes, reading the Spectator these days is like reading a student Trotskyist pamphlet: full of talk of 'our rulers', 'the ruling class', 'the ruling elite' etc. My theory is that a certain type of middle-class conservative bitterly regrets letting the 1970s and punk rock pass them by and is desperate for another go.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607

    As a matter of interest why is that tedious - I do not repeat it on a daily basis
    My family has the deeds to a house in the Falklands, written by hand on parchment! Not often you see that kind of legal document in the modern world.

    (I believe the house itself was sold sometime shortly after the Falklands War.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,168
    Phil said:

    Rubbish. When interest rates are low, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are a fraction of those on a repayment mortgage.

    Consider a £200k mortgage. At 1.5%, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are £250 / month. For a repayment mortgage they’re £800 / month.

    You can borrow far, far more on an IO mortgage for the same monthly payment which is why they’re so pro-cyclical & inflationary - they amplify the booms in house prices as people chase the prices up to limit of that which banks are willing to lend. In a more perfect world banks would restrict lending themselves in boom times but the internal incentives just don’t line up to make that happen.
    Yeah. I've recently discovered all my financially-sophisticated contemporaries who are now a lot wealthier than me had interest-only mortgages whereas I had repayment and thus could buy far less. Interest-only, low interest rates and a rampant stock market, it's easy with hindsight.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    Phil said:

    Is this ChatGPT output?
    It is Bard output.
  • In reality those low skilled jobs disappear or are replaced by machines.
    Some will, but not all.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,515
    glw said:

    More immigration when we are at record levels, and in order to suppress wage increases at the bottom. Is Hammond working for the Labour Party?
    Hammond has never had a problem with property price inflation.

    He's someone who believes in a rentier economy where income comes from ownership rather than a productive economy where income comes from work.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,515

    Some will, but not all.
    And wages would rise in those that would still exist.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    Miklosvar said:

    They are fine if you put the equivalent to the repayment element, into a stock market tracker every month. probably outperforms making repayments more often than not.
    Except the housing and equity market risks are correlated, so in the scenario where the housing market goes south you can't sell the house or use your equity wealth to clear the mortgage liability. All leveraged plays are fine until they don't work out. It's not a sensible way to manage your family's finances IMHO, because it's not robust to a downside scenario even if most of the time it pays off.
    Not wanting to sound smug but I used the last ten years to pay off the mortgage on our house, when I'm sure plenty of people would have traded up to a much more expensive property with a hefty mortgage, for precisely this reason. I feel for people who have taken on too much leverage to afford a normal family home but I don't have too much sympathy for well-off people who've over-extended themselves out of greed or for lifestyle porn reasons. They've taken an unnecessary gamble with their family finances and don't deserve to be bailed out.
  • And wages would rise in those that would still exist.
    Yes, I did say that. The point is that the people now doing them would otherwise have had better paying jobs.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078

    Why would 45-79 decrease when you exclude 08-10?
    Because I moved from GDP growth to GDP per capita growth in response to HYUFD
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    It isn't really the rule of law - Cameronite reforms that made quangos quasi-independent have a lot to answer for. Most would agree that the NHS is badly run, but have any of those mismanaging it been dismissed or even challenged?

    *edit - ah I get you were speaking about the Rwanda policy specifically - sure. Just an example that Tory Ministers (especially right wing ones it would appear) aren't part of the elite.
    Not really. Even the elite need should have to obey the law, we're not Russia.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    Farooq said:

    Could you please list the senior civil servants, judges, heads of quangos and FTSE100 companies and their political ideologies, please? Asking for a forum.
    See the number of FTSE 100 directors who signed a letter opposing Brexit or the SC's rulings against Boris or civil servants briefings v Braverman and Patel

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36592782
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    Phil said:

    Rubbish. When interest rates are low, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are a fraction of those on a repayment mortgage.

    Consider a £200k mortgage. At 1.5%, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are £250 / month. For a repayment mortgage they’re £800 / month.

    You can borrow far, far more on an IO mortgage for the same monthly payment which is why they’re so pro-cyclical & inflationary - they amplify the booms in house prices as people chase the prices up to limit of that which banks are willing to lend. In a more perfect world banks would restrict lending themselves in boom times but the internal incentives just don’t line up to make that happen.
    Should add: you can borrow far, far more /when interest rates are low/ ! When interest rates go up, the ratio between IO & repayment narrows, so the amount extra you can borrow also collapses.

    For an £800 monthly payment at 1.5% interest you can cover a £200k repayment mortgage, but you can cover the interest on a £581k IO mortgage. If interest rates hit 7%, that £800 will cover a £137k IO mortgage or a £113k repayment mortgage.

    So for an interest rate rise from 1.5% -> 7% we’ve gone from IO mortgages enabling nearly a tripling of lending to only enabling a 20% increase. That’s a huge difference & it’s why IO mortgages are so destabilising & inflationary over the interest rate cycle: they release vast sums of £ into the economy when interest rates are low, which then becomes unsupportable levels of debt when interest rates rise, so the borrowers default, but the cash has already been spent.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    Pulpstar said:

    If we joined the Euro we'd be in the ECB. The addition of Kyiv in a few years will keep it generally poor enough to maintain a generally weaker Euro compared to a western Europe only deal and we'd have lower interest rates courtesy of the ECB.

    What's not to like

    Which would mean rampant UK inflation when we need higher rates to reduce it we had no power to implement
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Nigelb said:

    Should really have been a bulldog, or the Dulux sheepdog, but otherwise spot in.

    The Tory party is just going through the motions.
    Isn't that an English Mastiff, btw? So not entirely irrelevant if so.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    Barnesian said:

    It is Bard output.
    Untrustable then.

    Christ people, just drop the numbers in a spreadsheet. You can’t trust an LLM to get sums right reliably, they’re just not capable of it.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Weak Rishi, call a GE.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    edited June 2023
    Barnesian said:

    Because I moved from GDP growth to GDP per capita growth in response to HYUFD
    In 1979 the UK had amongst the lowest gdp per capitas in western Europe, by 1990 the highest. That was when the main growth went even if you switched from GDP growth to per capita when it didn't suit your argument.

    UK gdp per capita $7k in 1979, $19k in 1990
    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita
  • eekeek Posts: 29,734
    edited June 2023
    Phil said:

    Rubbish. When interest rates are low, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are a fraction of those on a repayment mortgage.

    Consider a £200k mortgage. At 1.5%, the monthly payments on an IO mortgage are £250 / month. For a repayment mortgage they’re £800 / month.

    You can borrow far, far more on an IO mortgage for the same monthly payment which is why they’re so pro-cyclical & inflationary - they amplify the booms in house prices as people chase the prices up to limit of that which banks are willing to lend. In a more perfect world banks would restrict lending themselves in boom times but the internal incentives just don’t line up to make that happen.
    My problem is I don't believe anyone has been able to get an interest only mortgage for the past 10 years - banks don't trust the repayment mechanisms so it adds risk and risks means higher interest rates.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,799

    Instead we decided to create a taxpayer subsidised hand car wash sector rife with exploitation and criminality.
    I went for the more expensive hand wash last time and it was worth the money. Much better than the machine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Yes, I did say that. The point is that the people now doing them would otherwise have had better paying jobs.
    Except there’s full employment. Those people already have better-paying jobs, and the vacancies are at the bottom. So they either need to raise wages, or invest in capital equipment to substitute labour.

    Importing hundreds of thousands of minimum-wage (or worse) workers shoudn’t be an option.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,785
    On immigration, the skilled worker visa shortage occupation list indicates that such visas are available to immigrant workers paid 80% of the job's usual going rate. So the government is using immigrant labour to undercut wages through these visas. The list is here (there is a separate list for health/social care and education):

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations

    The list, of course, keeps being expanded, which is why immigration figures are going up. So what Hammond was suggesting isn't that far removed from what's happening anyway - many of the jobs on the list, and on the separate healthcare list, are not well paid.

    I was most amused to see "Artists - all jobs" on the list (3411). No idea what that's about.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,799
    Oh god a 'cage fight' between Musk and Zuckerberg. What a bucket of absolute wank. Whither the world?
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    I am Horse.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227

    I am Horse.

    Morning Denzil.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Pulpstar said:

    Morning Denzil.
    I am Horse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,700
    Farooq said:

    I don't think Ukraine's joining any time soon. There are accession criteria that are quite challenging to meet. There are national vetos. It'll be a long process and success is far from guaranteed. Witness Turkey.
    I'm not so sure about that.
    Of the EU awkward squad, only Hungary would be likely to oppose.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,623
    Pulpstar said:

    If we joined the Euro we'd be in the ECB. The addition of Kyiv in a few years will keep it generally poor enough to maintain a generally weaker Euro compared to a western Europe only deal and we'd have lower interest rates courtesy of the ECB.

    What's not to like

    Interest rates for savers.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    The bar chart isn't very enlightening, because it shows the Tories down 19% and Labour up 11%. LDs are the same as before. What happened to the other 8%?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227
    Taz said:

    Interest rates for savers.
    They've got all the world's stock markets to invest in.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    eek said:

    My problem is I don't believe anyone has been able to get an interest only mortgage for the past 10 years - banks don't trust the repayment mechanisms so it adds risk and risks means higher interest rates.
    The press seem to have no problem finding people on IO mortgages.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    Farooq said:

    51 directors out of (and this is an estimate) 700 directors?

    How are you getting on with the list of senior civil servants, judges, heads of quangos?
    HYUFD is never wrong. Has never contemplated being wrong. Can never be wrong. In his head. The rest of us, with our catalogue of human misjudgments and regrets, can only stare in awe.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    edited June 2023
    Phil said:

    Untrustable then.

    Christ people, just drop the numbers in a spreadsheet. You can’t trust an LLM to get sums right reliably, they’re just not capable of it.
    I have dropped them in a spreadsheet as a check. Bard is correct in this instance. I agree with your general point. It's worth checking.

    EDIT I needed a very quick response to HYFUD. The checking came later. :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,700

    I am Horse.
    Course you are, dear.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H0dKc9QG9E
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,623
    Pulpstar said:

    They've got all the world's stock markets to invest in.
    Not everyone wants to tie their savings up in the markets and even those who do want less riskier savings vehicles as part of a balanced approach.

    It took many years to get there but I have one years salary available on deposit. Higher interest rates are good for me even though that buffoon of a chancellor is reducing the amount of interest we can get before we have to pay tax.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,799
    Phil said:

    The press seem to have no problem finding people on IO mortgages.
    IO makes sense if you're in the property game for profit. Less so on your home.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,168
    HYUFD said:

    In 1979 the UK had amongst the lowest gdp per capitas in western Europe, by 1990 the highest. That was when the main growth went even if you switched from GDP growth to per capita when it didn't suit your argument.

    UK gdp per capita $7k in 1979, $19k in 1990
    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita
    Presumably most of that growth came from the City.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    HYUFD said:

    In 1979 the UK had amongst the lowest gdp per capitas in western Europe, by 1990 the highest. That was when the main growth went even if you switched from GDP growth to per capita when it didn't suit your argument.

    UK gdp per capita $7k in 1979, $19k in 1990
    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita
    "even if you switched from GDP growth to per capita when it didn't suit your argument." What!!

    You switched from GDP growth to per capita hoping to strengthen your argument but I showed that is didn't! Come on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    edited June 2023
    Farooq said:

    51 directors out of (and this is an estimate) 700 directors?

    How are you getting on with the list of senior civil servants, judges, heads of quangos?


    You anti Brexit, left liberals are pathetic. Always have to be the victims, always oppressed by the elite.

    When the elite largely shares your anti Brexit, social liberalism.

    Just 25% of finance workers in the City of London voted Leave, compared to 52% of voters UK wide. Civil servants were even more anti Brexit.

    Indeed over 60% of investment bankers in London voted Remain, so you have more in common with them on Brexit than people in Stoke

    https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2016/07/this-is-how-city-of-london-workers-voted-in
  • Sandpit said:

    Except there’s full employment. Those people already have better-paying jobs, and the vacancies are at the bottom. So they either need to raise wages, or invest in capital equipment to substitute labour.

    Importing hundreds of thousands of minimum-wage (or worse) workers shoudn’t be an option.
    Yes, that is exactly my point. The wages for the lowest-paying occupations will indeed rise, but, in a full-employment environment, the people filling them will be coming from jobs that currently pay better.

    If you remove a load of people doing low-skilled work from the labour market in a full-employment environment, the net result is that the wages for that work increase and some of it is mechanised. But the remaining jobs will have to be filled with people would would otherwise have continued in better paying jobs.And the only way this happens is that there are fewer better paying jobs, which means there has to be economic shrinkage and rising unemployment.

    On the face of it, it's pretty obvious that the outcome of removing a bunch of people who do useful work for low pay isn't going to have a beneficial effect on a country's economic situation.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,319
    Nigelb said:

    I'm not so sure about that.
    Of the EU awkward squad, only Hungary would be likely to oppose.
    It'll depend on who exactly is on the hook for rebuilding whatever's left of Ukraine because that's going to be decades and hundreds of billions. If China and the USA can be hoodwinked into paying for some, or ideally, most of it then opposition inside the EU to Ukraine's membership will be attenuated. If all the EU are getting is a wrecked shit hole that's a money furnace then there will be more Ukro-skeptics than just Hungary (and Slovakia if Fico wins this year's election).
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    edited June 2023
    eek said:

    My problem is I don't believe anyone has been able to get an interest only mortgage for the past 10 years - banks don't trust the repayment mechanisms so it adds risk and risks means higher interest rates.
    NB https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/2023-06/UK Finance Interest Only Mortgages Update.pdf says that there are currently ~1million outstanding IO (or partial IO) mortgages in the UK: 700k pure IO & 222k part/part.

    That’s about 10% of the UK mortgage population. Be interesting to know what the % is by value.

    There were 3million IO mortgages outstanding back in 2013, presumably a hangover from the 2008 boom/bust.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,302
    The thing HMG could do on mortgages is to cap at the margins, so whilst everyone feels some pain far fewer go bankrupt in jumping from a 1% rate to a 6% rate, or similar, at renewal.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,344
    Sandpit said:

    But you have a 20/1 or 10/1 leverage on the investment, something that’s almost impossible for the average investor elsewhere.

    Which is great when house prices are continually rising…
    It's blooming hard to beat the returns from that sort of leverage (see also the saucier kind of hedge fund). Lawson and Brown both gave Britain something for nothing, and Britain has come to expect this as their due.

    And leaving aside the moral aspect (why invest and work if you can make more with a one-way punt), something for nothing tends to be followed by nothing for something.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,700
    edited June 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    It'll depend on who exactly is on the hook for rebuilding whatever's left of Ukraine because that's going to be decades and hundreds of billions. If China and the USA can be hoodwinked into paying for some, or ideally, most of it then opposition inside the EU to Ukraine's membership will be attenuated. If all the EU are getting is a wrecked shit hole that's a money furnace then there will be more Ukro-skeptics than just Hungary (and Slovakia if Fico wins this year's election).
    We'll see.
    For now the signs are the EU is perhaps serious.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-new-marshall-plan-the-eu-takes-a-bet-on-rebuilding-ukraine-russia-war/amp/

    As an investment which irrevocably changes the terms of trade - and balance of power - with their bellicose and malign eastern neighbour, it might even be worth it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,168
    Dura_Ace said:

    It'll depend on who exactly is on the hook for rebuilding whatever's left of Ukraine because that's going to be decades and hundreds of billions. If China and the USA can be hoodwinked into paying for some, or ideally, most of it then opposition inside the EU to Ukraine's membership will be attenuated. If all the EU are getting is a wrecked shit hole that's a money furnace then there will be more Ukro-skeptics than just Hungary (and Slovakia if Fico wins this year's election).
    Or sell Crimea to Russia for £500 billion and use it to rebuild Ukraine. Russia is sitting on a fortune it can't spend, and since the USA came about partly through land purchases, there'd be no objection there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227
    edited June 2023
    Phil said:

    NB https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/2023-06/UK Finance Interest Only Mortgages Update.pdf says that there are currently ~1million outstanding IO (or partial IO) mortgages in the UK: 700k pure IO & 222k part/part.

    That’s about 10% of the UK mortgage population. Be interesting to know what the % is by value.

    There were 3million IO mortgages outstanding back in 2013, presumably a hangover from the 2008 boom/bust.
    A huge amount of the IO will be BTL I think seeing as tax rules make capital mortgages a complete non starter. I was on a small IO till about 2015 iirc. The criteria for OO tightened up after that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,295
    HYUFD said:



    You anti Brexit, left liberals are pathetic. Always have to be the victims, always oppressed by the elite.

    When the elite largely shares your anti Brexit, social liberalism.

    Just 25% of finance workers in the City of London voted Leave, compared to 52% of voters UK wide. Civil servants were even more anti Brexit.

    Indeed over 60% of investment bankers in London voted Remain, so you have more in common with them on Brexit than people in Stoke

    https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2016/07/this-is-how-city-of-london-workers-voted-in
    Which way did you vote btw?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,105
    @steverichards14
    No minister to defend Brexit in front of an audience of Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1671823205672144898

    @gavinesler
    It appears the Sunak government is unwilling to defend the indefensible. If they cannot even defend their acceptance of Brexit, is there any point to the Sunak government? Thoughts?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,359
    Dura_Ace said:

    It'll depend on who exactly is on the hook for rebuilding whatever's left of Ukraine because that's going to be decades and hundreds of billions. If China and the USA can be hoodwinked into paying for some, or ideally, most of it then opposition inside the EU to Ukraine's membership will be attenuated. If all the EU are getting is a wrecked shit hole that's a money furnace then there will be more Ukro-skeptics than just Hungary (and Slovakia if Fico wins this year's election).
    But there are also great opportunities; the ledger is not all on the negative side.

    Then there are the moral issues as well.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    Pulpstar said:

    A huge amount of the IO will be BTL I think seeing as tax rules make capital mortgages a complete non starter. I was on a small IO till about 2015 iirc. The criteria for OO tightened up after that.
    Yeah, these seem to be “homeowner” mortgages, so presumably not BTL.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,533
    edited June 2023

    Or sell Crimea to Russia for £500 billion and use it to rebuild Ukraine. Russia is sitting on a fortune it can't spend, and since the USA came about partly through land purchases, there'd be no objection there.
    Crimea is not a viable state if detached from Ukraine. Khrushchev understood this. Even Putin seems to on a fairly basic level.

    The reason the Russians are so anxious to control it is so they can have access to the gas deposits in the Black Sea, plus control the Kerch Strait and the approach to Odessa.

    The reason Ukraine are adamant they won't give it up is for exactly the same reason.

    (Incidentally this is why Crimea was annexed to the RSSR in 1922 after the conquest of Ukraine in the first place.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,105
    @steverichards14
    I recall EU diplomats telling me post 2016 that UK was least suited to leave partly because of N.Ireland.. but also its dependence on single market in which its economy had flourished.They spoke out of bewilderment..the argument already lost.And here we are..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,533
    What is it about groups with the acronym 'DfE' that they are all utter bellends who spend their time wrecking the education system?

    Further education lecturers won't receive £3,000 one-off payment
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65979796
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    edited June 2023

    Which way did you vote btw?
    Remain but I am not pretending to be an anti elite rebel.

    The real anti elite rebels are the few who are Socialists, voted for Corbyn but also voted Leave and still back Brexit and are religious social conservatives.

    Everyone else is still largely in agreement with today's UK elite on at least half the issues
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Yes, that is exactly my point. The wages for the lowest-paying occupations will indeed rise, but, in a full-employment environment, the people filling them will be coming from jobs that currently pay better.

    If you remove a load of people doing low-skilled work from the labour market in a full-employment environment, the net result is that the wages for that work increase and some of it is mechanised. But the remaining jobs will have to be filled with people would would otherwise have continued in better paying jobs.And the only way this happens is that there are fewer better paying jobs, which means there has to be economic shrinkage and rising unemployment.

    On the face of it, it's pretty obvious that the outcome of removing a bunch of people who do useful work for low pay isn't going to have a beneficial effect on a country's economic situation.
    Why would anyone be voluntarily moving from a higher-paying job to a lower-paying job?

    For those moving involuntarily, they should be very happy that the legal minimum wage is no longer the ceiling in so many industries.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,784
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14
    I recall EU diplomats telling me post 2016 that UK was least suited to leave partly because of N.Ireland.. but also its dependence on single market in which its economy had flourished.They spoke out of bewilderment..the argument already lost.And here we are..

    "flourished" as in we had 6 0f the 10poorest regions in Western Europe, Which wasnt the case when we went in,
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,329
    Fcuk the Royal Highland Show at Ingliston and all those driving to it. A sweaty hour in a tailback already.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,799
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Remain but I am not pretending to be an anti elite rebel.

    The real anti elite rebels are the few who are Socialists, voted for Corbyn but also voted Leave and still back Brexit and are religious social conservatives.

    Everyone else is still largely in agreement with today's UK elite on at least half the issues
    Religious, socially conservative, Corbynite leavers ... that's quite a niche group of people you're homing in on there.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    Pulpstar said:

    A huge amount of the IO will be BTL I think seeing as tax rules make capital mortgages a complete non starter. I was on a small IO till about 2015 iirc. The criteria for OO tightened up after that.
    Looking at the data on the FCA website I think BTL mortgages make up about 15% of the outstanding mortgage body, so that’s another million - 1.5million mortgages? If most of those are IO then that will have a significant impact on the housing market.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,761
    edited June 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Why would anyone be voluntarily moving from a higher-paying job to a lower-paying job?

    For those moving involuntarily, they should be very happy that the legal minimum wage is no longer the ceiling in so many industries.
    It's more the case that some of those people starting their careers will be have to start a rung lower than they would otherwise have been able to. The net result, though, is that wages for Brits will, on average, be lower without freedom of movement because more of them will have to do the lowest-paying work, even though the lowest-paying work pays better than before.

    Edit: Surely this argument must be even more obvious to you in the Middle East. What would happen to the economy of your host country if all the cheap Indian and other labour were sent packing?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,784
    Farooq said:

    Where were the poorest regions in Western Europe when we went in?
    Start with Ireland
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,105
    @BloombergUK

    Less than a fifth of Brexit voters believe it has been a success seven years on from the referendum vote, according to a new poll

    https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1671832787375071233
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,400
    HYUFD said:



    You anti Brexit, left liberals are pathetic. Always have to be the victims, always oppressed by the elite.

    When the elite largely shares your anti Brexit, social liberalism.

    Just 25% of finance workers in the City of London voted Leave, compared to 52% of voters UK wide. Civil servants were even more anti Brexit.

    Indeed over 60% of investment bankers in London voted Remain, so you have more in common with them on Brexit than people in Stoke

    https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2016/07/this-is-how-city-of-london-workers-voted-in
    Projection (noun) (PSYCHOLOGY)

    [ C or U ] PSYCHOLOGY specialized
    the act of imagining that someone else feels a particular emotion or wants something when in fact it is you who feels this way; an example of this act:
    Projection is where you see in others what is really within yourself.
    The relative's negativity toward the patient involves a projection of the relative's own feelings of vulnerability from previous personal distress.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    Farooq said:

    Who said I'm a victim? I'm challenging your purported facts, that's all. You spoke of "senior civil servants, judges and heads of quangos" political beliefs and I started from the assumption that you weren't just pulling it out of your arse and you had some facts.

    So cough up or admit that you were pulling it out of your arse.
    or CHAT GPT?

    Actually I checked with BARD. It came up with:

    Lord Chancellor Robert Buckland
    is a Conservative politician who has served as Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice since 2019. He is a self-described "social conservative" and has said that he believes in "traditional values". He is also a supporter of Brexit and has said that he believes that leaving the European Union will allow the UK to "take back control" of its borders and laws.

    Sir Philip Rutnam is a British lawyer who served as Permanent Secretary at the Home Office from 2017 to 2019. He is a self-described "one-nation conservative" and has said that he believes in "limited government" and "individual responsibility". He is also a supporter of Brexit and has said that he believes that leaving the European Union will allow the UK to "take back control" of its borders and laws.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227
    Phil said:

    Looking at the data on the FCA website I think BTL mortgages make up about 15% of the outstanding mortgage body, so that’s another million - 1.5million mortgages? If most of those are IO then that will have a significant impact on the housing market.
    They'll have to err sell. 15 minutes till we find out the move of 4D chess master Bailey.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Interest rate announcement in 5 minutes’ time. What do we reckon, 50bps, or does the BoE chicken out again?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    kinabalu said:

    Religious, socially conservative, Corbynite leavers ... that's quite a niche group of people you're homing in on there.
    Mick Lynch isn't far off
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,980
    Scott_xP said:

    @steverichards14
    No minister to defend Brexit in front of an audience of Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1671823205672144898

    @gavinesler
    It appears the Sunak government is unwilling to defend the indefensible. If they cannot even defend their acceptance of Brexit, is there any point to the Sunak government? Thoughts?

    Rishi needs to start piling the failures of Brexit firmly at Boris's door. Emphasize that it was nice idea comprehensively cocked up by Boris, his incompetence and his egotism. The Boris myth must be destroyed for all the Tories' sake, and Brexit is the perfect place to start.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,784
    Farooq said:

    Is that you saying you don't know exactly? Because I don't even know where to look for these data.
    well being old enough to recall when we went in reland was miles behind the UK and the whole of the Mezzogiorno wasnt exactly rolling in cash. Thats where youll find the poorest regions in 1973.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,784

    Rishi needs to start piling the failures of Brexit firmly at Boris's door. Emphasize that it was nice idea comprehensively cocked up by Boris, his incompetence and his egotism. The Boris myth must be destroyed for all the Tories' sake, and Brexit is the perfect place to start.
    Who would he be kidding apart from himself ? The conservatives are failing because they dont have conservative policies and the voters can see that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,028
    5%
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,227
    5%.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    edited June 2023
    Boom. 0.5% rise.

    I really should have fixed my mortgage for a decade. Still, five years is going to make a big difference.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,641
    It's 0.5%!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,302
    0.5% rise. Correct decision.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    HYUFD said:



    You anti Brexit, left liberals are pathetic. Always have to be the victims, always oppressed by the elite.

    When the elite largely shares your anti Brexit, social liberalism.

    Just 25% of finance workers in the City of London voted Leave, compared to 52% of voters UK wide. Civil servants were even more anti Brexit.

    Indeed over 60% of investment bankers in London voted Remain, so you have more in common with them on Brexit than people in Stoke

    https://www.efinancialcareers.co.uk/news/2016/07/this-is-how-city-of-london-workers-voted-in
    AND THEY LOST. Leavers won. If you're literally saying the "elite" are one side of a binary referendum, and the side that LOST, how can they be the ones who have all the power?

    "The enemy is both weak and strong"

    I do just wish that people would go back to saying what they really mean, and leave the dogwhistles behind. "North London liberal elite" "cosmopolitans" "liberal bankers". Goodwin just wants to say Jewish. "Cultural Marxist" - just say "Judaeo Bolshevism" dude, we know it's the same thing. Even if this isn't conscious anti-semitism it is the creation of an other using the exact same methods and arguments - "shadowy elites who don't share our values are out their trying to weaken the nation, which is represented by the real volk - I mean people". Just say it, be honest with yourselves.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,078
    ...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,784
    edited June 2023
    Farooq said:

    So you don't know. Your economic data is... you went for a drive fifty years ago.
    50 years ago I was 12 so I didnt drive anywhere,
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,024
    edited June 2023
    148grss said:

    Goodwin just dislikes the evolution of societal norms. Most of Goodwin's recent book (which has very few actual citations for an academic) claims that the new "elite" are essentially just all university graduates, women, and ethnic or sexual minorities, and the old elite are white working class people and the elderly. Which is clearly not the case, that's just generational divide.

    The "elite" are the same people who have owned and controlled land since their ancestors landed on these shores in 1066. The "elite" are the same narrow group of people who go to one of two or three public schools and one of two universities. The "elite" are the people who have the opportunity to leverage their preexisting wealth and networks into cushy jobs where they can publish in national newspapers on a regular basis or get a peerage before the age of 30.

    What the new generation have is the ability for the old elites to hear them, because social media allows the plebs to shout at anyone. They also have more willingness to "talk back" to their "betters". Graduates may have more pluralistic attitudes because they interact with a different set of people whilst at university - people from across the country and across the world.

    I want to know what significant impact the "new elite" have had. If we're talking about the press - that's overwhelming right wing in this country. The government has been right wing / centrist since Thatcher. Yes, we have progressed on open racism, sexism and homophobia - but barely and only if it is really obvious (in his book Goodwin complains that the "new elite" think doing accents and complaining that people don't speak English in the UK are racist is bad, actually, and thinks that we should define the number of people who hold racially prejudicial views on the basis of a poll that asked people if they self defined as racist).

    The problem with Goodwin, HYUFD, and a lot of British conservatism is they're complaining about winning too much. They won the economic argument - everyone's a Thatcherite now. They won on the EU - we're leaving. They won most of the culture war - gay rights begins and ends with the right to act like straight people with same sex marriage, and it's more important that 5 rich people are likely dead out of their own hubris than it is 500 migrants were killed when their boat was sank. But winning doesn't make your enemies shut up and respect you, and that's what they want - for the goddamn poors and women and gays and ethnics to just accept their place in the world and stop asking for a better world. They believe it was shit for them (despite most of them living through the golden age of the welfare state and investment into their progress) and therefore demand that it must be shit for the rest of us. "Didn't do me any harm..." etc etc, bullcrap bullcrap
    The liberal elite won the culture war, we have homosexual marriage, abortion near on demand up to 24 weeks, Pride days even in corporations, religious teachers sacked for teaching traditional views of gender and sexuality, migration to the UK higher than ever before even despite Brexit, statues being pulled down in big cities and museums. Social liberalism and anti Brexit views dominate the ranks of academia, the civil service, lawyers, big corporations and TV news from the BBC to Channel 4.

    Even the economic argument the right was alleged to have won is looking shaky with the tax burden high and likely to get even higher under a Starmer government, increasing public spending and things which were privatised like railways now being drawn up by stealth under public ownership. While the Unions are shaking their fists again and striking for huge wage rises.

    The elite is also different, the rich list in the Sunday Times is now mainly self made entrepreneurs, whereas in the early 1980s it was mainly landowners and inherited wealth. Public schools are now seeing pupils being rejected from Oxbridge more than ever, with 65% of Oxford and 70% of Cambridge students from state schools and even most Tory MPs now state educated.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    When I look at the mess that is our effort at ‘border control’ it’s perhaps fortunate that the only land border we have is on the island of Ireland!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    %0 years ago I was 12 so I didnt drive anywhere,
    "go for a drive" applies to passengers too.
  • Who would he be kidding apart from himself ? The conservatives are failing because they dont have conservative policies and the voters can see that.
    The voters think the Conservatives aren't conservative enough, so they're going to vote Labour instead?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,641
    6% by Dec 2023???
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    Who would he be kidding apart from himself ? The conservatives are failing because they dont have conservative policies and the voters can see that.
    What 'are' conservative policies?

    The public wants good public services. It wants society to work. It wants housing and jobs. The tories aren't delviering and no on thinks that doing things like cutting tax for the richest is going to deliver those things.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,278
    Cicero said:

    The current teenage scribbler for the Times, James Marriott is a little perturbed by what he calls "Centrist Populism"- i.e. the gathering wrath of moderates towards Brexit and all other works of Torydom.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rage-is-swallowing-even-the-middle-ground-9s0lg2nf0 (Paywall)

    I think I can explain the gathering disaster for the Conservatives in very simple terms.

    The educated middle class have had more than a decade of being told that experts don´t matter (they are trying to do it again today, seeking to transfer the blame for the UK´s economic woes towards the Bank of England, rather than their own policy incompetence).

    There has been decades of utter bullshit, absurd power stance policies which do not even begin to scratch the surface of under investment and misallocation of capital across the whole economy for decades.

    Then there is the more than 40 years of the playground shit show of internal Tory party politics, which culminated in the travesty of "Prime Minister" Boris Johnson, but covered so much else in childish personality clashes The mass expulsion of adults, from the Conservatives by Johnson was the last chance for the Tories.

    The patient people of Britain are waiting for the fat lady to sing, and she is clearing her throat.

    The Tories are going to face a whole new world of pain at the next election, but more to the point I think we are going to see a long overdue period of radical change. The country in 10 years will have changed in ways- economic, political, social and constitutional- that I do not see the Tories being able to survive.

    This is not just about the 2024/5 election, it will be epochal.

    Good.

    Non-paywall copy: https://archive.is/GEMJH
This discussion has been closed.