Why I’m not convinced by LAB’S double digit poll leads – politicalbetting.com

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

DougSeal said:

Afternoon. No Saturday visits from Russia this week?

LostPassword said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

LostPassword said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

The Tories haven't been very conservative since Thatcher. The Cult of Thatcher is very radical, and we can see the current government is always raging against what it identifies as "the blob" that is standing in the way of its attempts to institute year zero style reforms.

You're confusing expressions of frustration by MPs and commentators with actual policy. When did we last see policies from the Tories that were in any way radical? What we've actually had is New Labour in aspic - we may have complaints about 'the Blob', but the march of the blob has continued apace. What actual 'anti-Blob' reforms can you point to?

The proposal to withdraw from the ECHR - which was written by British judges, and you'd expect to be something championed by conservatives - is the most obvious anti-conservative policy (though it does and is resurrected so often that I'm not sure if it's currently still policy).

The recent policing reforms, which dilute the ancient liberties of the English people, is, again, also obvious.

There are loads of these sorts of things.

eek said:

Sandpit said:

El_Capitano said:

Westie said:

Scotland: what's going on with the ferry company Caledonian MacBrayne? Just as the tourist season is taking off, they're not selling any tickets for three days. Absolutely no ticket sales, whether online or in person or over the phone, for sailing on any of their 20+ routes. Are they about to go into administration or something? Have they been told to nail their tills shut? Never heard anything like this before with such a large public transport monopoly.

They're bringing a new booking system online, including e-tickets. They were meant to be doing it a few weeks ago but, understandably, postponed it due to the ongoing clusterfuck with ferry repairs:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/23446389.six-calmac-ferries-need-repairs-easter-disruption/

I do have some sympathy for the "take it down for a few days" approach to system migration. It reduces the chance of a TSB/Sabadell situation.

Only in the public sector, would a booking system be offline for three days for a system upgrade.

I’ve worked on IT projects like this. The downtime is at most a few hours overnight, as the future bookings are moved across and websites etc. set to point to the new servers.

A lot of planning and testing goes into the migration process, with the aim to minimise the downtime.

But they planning and testing costs a lot of time money and effort.

And after all what could go wrong so it’s no surprise a bunch of people may have taken short cuts.

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

LostPassword said:

edmundintokyo said:

Seems like Russian air defence is working effectively, they just took down a plane and 2 helicopters.

Seems to be two planes and two helicopters. Naturally some Russians believe that this is a sign that F-16s are already in Ukraine. I'm sure Dura will explain why this couldn't be done with F-16s.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657368124788809728

"🇺🇦 Ukraine Weapons Tracker
@UAWeapons
One of the worst days ever for the Russian Air Force: Today, at least 4 aircraft- an Su-34 strike jet, an Su-35 fighter and two Mi-8 helicopters, were shot down by anti-air missiles over Bryansk Oblast within Russia.

So far it is unclear what kind of missiles were used."

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

Casino_Royale said:

DougSeal said:

Afternoon. No Saturday visits from Russia this week?

We had him earlier

Sandpit said:

LostPassword said:

edmundintokyo said:

Seems like Russian air defence is working effectively, they just took down a plane and 2 helicopters.

Seems to be two planes and two helicopters. Naturally some Russians believe that this is a sign that F-16s are already in Ukraine. I'm sure Dura will explain why this couldn't be done with F-16s.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657368124788809728

"🇺🇦 Ukraine Weapons Tracker
@UAWeapons
One of the worst days ever for the Russian Air Force: Today, at least 4 aircraft- an Su-34 strike jet, an Su-35 fighter and two Mi-8 helicopters, were shot down by anti-air missiles over Bryansk Oblast within Russia.

So far it is unclear what kind of missiles were used."

Russian missiles. It looks like either their air defences misfired, else there’s a rogue agent or enemy special forces behind their own lines.

Carnyx said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

...

Chris said:

algarkirk said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

I don't think that in practice it really means that at all. I think it means laissez faire. In the current climate that means things are going to change beyond all recognition in the next decade or two. If politicians are adopting that policy thoughtlessly, then it's not at all like Conservatism has been historically. In fact it's almost the antithesis of Conservatism. It's abolishing the past in favour of whatever random future is most beneficial to short-sighted big business. If the Tory right think that's Conservatism they're even more stupid than I thought - though admittedly the depths of their stupidity are almost unfathomable.

Conservatism both in people and theory terms contains a multitude of contradictions. In a sense the EU has illustrated this perfectly. There is the Conservative business case - pro EU, Majorite, pragmatic, money making; then there is the socially Conservative case - sovereign, nation, constitution, small scale, hierarchical, the 'little platoons' of Edmund Burke.

(The left and centre left are just as split. But this is less seen because they have not been in power.)

I'm sure Conservatism does contain a multitude of contradictions.

But in relation to the technological issues that are now paramount, the ideal of keeping everything as much as possible the same is becoming completely incompatible with the ideal of letting big business do whatever is most profitable.

It would be (a bit) reassuring if the advocates of "Conservatism" here showed a glimmering of awareness of that dichotomy, and (a bit more) reassuring if any of them - on reflection - realised that "laissez faire" is not at all a good idea in present circumstances.

You are correct that 'laissez fare' economics has its limits - but it always has. Adam Smith himself warned of the power of corporations, and stressed the need for Governments to break up monopolies etc.

However, your prescription of what is needed from Government is wrong. Huge corporations actually like high taxes and regulation. They are barriers to entry for smaller companies, so they eliminate competition for the big boys. A positive Government would reduce the barriers to entry for smaller players - for example, raise the VAT threshold for smaller companies, whilst opposing anti-competitive activity in big corporations. What our Government and many like them do is the opposite.

Didn't a Thatcherite cabinet minister carefully delete the bit about not letting businessmen run riot when he edited Wealth of a Nation?

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

I'll try to cope.

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

Well, Brexit and its economic consequences is why the Red Wall thinks this government has failed, and why the Blue Wall hates it too.

Brexit is the political monkeys paw. You get what you wish for and regret it very quickly.

Not quickly enough, though.

But yes, at some point the Conservatives stopped being conservative. Incremental change, think in generations, work out why the fence was put up before you tear it down, that sort of thing. It's not just about Brexit, for all that is totemic. (After all, a conservative approach to being Eurosceptic would have been to take Dave's deal and set it in concrete. It probably would have stuck.)

And then there's Starmer's speech today (there's a link here; https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1657353519165321216). Large chunks of it read like the sort of thing that a One Nation Tory of previous generations- Iain Macleod, say, could have said. But it's really hard to see who is standing up for this sort of thing in the current setup.

What was the "conservative" option to disengage with the EU given it had taken a "conservative" attitude to steadily ratcheting up integration over several decades to arrive at such a decidedly objectionable position to so many Conservatives?

Dialup said:

DavidL said:

Dialup said:

Thatcher was the least "conservative" Tory there has ever been. She was the opposite of conservative.

And thank god for that.

I am happy to debate the pros and cons of Thatcher but my point is that the Tories have not been "conservative" in government for many, many years.

Johnson's 2019 manifesto was basically Labour's 2017 manifesto with populist elements. What is conservative about that?

Dialup said:

https://twitter.com/globalaffairs/status/1657219168863756288

In response to legal process and to ensure Twitter remains available to the people of Turkey, we have taken action to restrict access to some content in Turkey today.

Elon Musk, defender of free speech. Not.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

When I go to Tesco later I'll see if they'll accept sovereignty to pay my bills.....

The money saved in EU fees (which we have now stopped paying) is only too real, and under the current circumstances that's a huge economic boon. Unfortunately, the current Government seems intent on finding ways to piss away that saving.

... it's the way you tell em ....

What is it that you're disputing, I don't understand. That there is an EU membership fee, that we've stopped paying it, that not paying it (in a time of massive public debt) is a boon, or that the current Government is pissing away money? I'm all ears.

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

You're sensible on almost any subject, even when I don't agree with you.

Except Brexit.

You need to recognise your problem on that for you to become a serious commentator.

I’m not a professional economist, nor an academic. I don’t work in the investment industry, and I’m not a trade expert.

I do follow and listen to a lot of the above though, and nobody but nobody thinks Brexit has done anything but impair British growth.

There may be a political argument for Brexit, and it’s almost possible to imagine a very long term economic argument, but in the short to medium term that we live in, it’s been damaging and continues to be damaging.

That you still refuse to accept this means you refuse to deal with reality, and this in turn impoverishes your ability to understand what policy choices are now available or desirable.

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

You're sensible on almost any subject, even when I don't agree with you.

Except Brexit.

You need to recognise your problem on that for you to become a serious commentator.

I’m not a professional economist, nor an academic. I don’t work in the investment industry, and I’m not a trade expert.

I do follow and listen to a lot of the above though, and nobody but nobody thinks Brexit has done anything but impair British growth.

There may be a political argument for Brexit, and it’s almost possible to imagine a very long term economic argument, but in the short to medium term that we live in, it’s been damaging and continues to be damaging.

That you still refuse to accept this means you refuse to deal with reality, and this in turn impoverishes your ability to understand what policy choices are now available or desirable.

That denial of reality is why the Tories continue to make poor decisions. The have to keep up the pretense and double down on failure.

TimS said:

A propos of nothing I’m on a little car trip from my French house and ticking off the villages. Just bought a few bottles from the eccentric Chateau in Savigny-Les-Beaune where there’s a huge outdoor collection of warplanes covering several hectares.

In the course of about 45 mins I’ll be passing Aloxe Corton, Monthelie, Pommard, Volnay, Meursault and Puligny Montrachet. Before carrying on down via Rully, Mercurey, Givry and Montagny. It’s like a viticultural Hollywood walk of fame.

Sandpit said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

Is the UK the only country, where so much of the population dislikes the flying of its own national flag?

Every other country I visit, people are proud of their national identity and symbols.

Sandpit said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

Is the UK the only country, where so much of the population dislikes the flying of its own national flag?

Every other country I visit, people are proud of their national identity and symbols.

Tres said:

Sandpit said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

Is the UK the only country, where so much of the population dislikes the flying of its own national flag?

Every other country I visit, people are proud of their national identity and symbols.

The Dutch prefer to drape everything in Orange rather than wave their flag which is too easily mistaken for that of France.

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

I presume this view of yours on flag shagging extends to the St. Andrews cross?

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

Well, Brexit and its economic consequences is why the Red Wall thinks this government has failed, and why the Blue Wall hates it too.

Brexit is the political monkeys paw. You get what you wish for and regret it very quickly.

Not quickly enough, though.

But yes, at some point the Conservatives stopped being conservative. Incremental change, think in generations, work out why the fence was put up before you tear it down, that sort of thing. It's not just about Brexit, for all that is totemic. (After all, a conservative approach to being Eurosceptic would have been to take Dave's deal and set it in concrete. It probably would have stuck.)

And then there's Starmer's speech today (there's a link here; https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1657353519165321216). Large chunks of it read like the sort of thing that a One Nation Tory of previous generations- Iain Macleod, say, could have said. But it's really hard to see who is standing up for this sort of thing in the current setup.

What was the "conservative" option to disengage with the EU given it had taken a "conservative" attitude to steadily ratcheting up integration over several decades to arrive at such a decidedly objectionable position to so many Conservatives?

Here you go (but I'm sure you know all this already):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Act_2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–2016_United_Kingdom_renegotiation_of_European_Union_membership

You can argue that they weren't enough, but I don't think it's realistic to claim that they were nothing.

And then we come back to the question- what is the conservative thing to do? See how the incremental changes go, or blow everything up with little indication of what would happen next?

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

You're sensible on almost any subject, even when I don't agree with you.

Except Brexit.

You need to recognise your problem on that for you to become a serious commentator.

I’m not a professional economist, nor an academic. I don’t work in the investment industry, and I’m not a trade expert.

I do follow and listen to a lot of the above though, and nobody but nobody thinks Brexit has done anything but impair British growth.

There may be a political argument for Brexit, and it’s almost possible to imagine a very long term economic argument, but in the short to medium term that we live in, it’s been damaging and continues to be damaging.

That you still refuse to accept this means you refuse to deal with reality, and this in turn impoverishes your ability to understand what policy choices are now available or desirable.

rkrkrk said:

Stuartinromford said:

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

Well, Brexit and its economic consequences is why the Red Wall thinks this government has failed, and why the Blue Wall hates it too.

Brexit is the political monkeys paw. You get what you wish for and regret it very quickly.

Not quickly enough, though.

But yes, at some point the Conservatives stopped being conservative. Incremental change, think in generations, work out why the fence was put up before you tear it down, that sort of thing. It's not just about Brexit, for all that is totemic. (After all, a conservative approach to being Eurosceptic would have been to take Dave's deal and set it in concrete. It probably would have stuck.)

And then there's Starmer's speech today (there's a link here; https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1657353519165321216). Large chunks of it read like the sort of thing that a One Nation Tory of previous generations- Iain Macleod, say, could have said. But it's really hard to see who is standing up for this sort of thing in the current setup.

What was the "conservative" option to disengage with the EU given it had taken a "conservative" attitude to steadily ratcheting up integration over several decades to arrive at such a decidedly objectionable position to so many Conservatives?

Here you go (but I'm sure you know all this already):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Act_2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–2016_United_Kingdom_renegotiation_of_European_Union_membership

You can argue that they weren't enough, but I don't think it's realistic to claim that they were nothing.

And then we come back to the question- what is the conservative thing to do? See how the incremental changes go, or blow everything up with little indication of what would happen next?

Conservative brexit probably would mean leave but stay close... tinker with more dealignment over time.

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

I agree. UK economic policy since 2010 has been all about repairing our tax base from the consequences of the GFC and the wall of money that financial services used to throw at the public coffers.13 years on and we have still not managed it, mainly because we have been thrown off course by Covid and Ukraine. If we are to have the public services we collectively believe we deserve we need more profitable businesses in this country generating tax. And yet our political classes rarely even discuss the issue. For them, our current businesses are no more than geese waiting to be plucked.

You missed Brexit, which I contend is one of the things that threw the UK off course, and which also created a weird omertà in which the suppression of economic truth became standard practice.

I only mentioned the economically significant stuff.

But no serious commentator agrees with you.
So, sadly, you’re part of the problem.

You're sensible on almost any subject, even when I don't agree with you.

Except Brexit.

You need to recognise your problem on that for you to become a serious commentator.

I’m not a professional economist, nor an academic. I don’t work in the investment industry, and I’m not a trade expert.

I do follow and listen to a lot of the above though, and nobody but nobody thinks Brexit has done anything but impair British growth.

There may be a political argument for Brexit, and it’s almost possible to imagine a very long term economic argument, but in the short to medium term that we live in, it’s been damaging and continues to be damaging.

That you still refuse to accept this means you refuse to deal with reality, and this in turn impoverishes your ability to understand what policy choices are now available or desirable.

I don't refuse to accept anything. I've said all along it raises trading barriers with respect to the continent and, personally, I'd like them a bit lower and a closer more constructive relationship. I made that choice for political reasons and considered the costs acceptable and still do.

Where I disagree with you is that this means we're finished and damns us for eternity.

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

Well, Brexit and its economic consequences is why the Red Wall thinks this government has failed, and why the Blue Wall hates it too.

Brexit is the political monkeys paw. You get what you wish for and regret it very quickly.

Not quickly enough, though.

But yes, at some point the Conservatives stopped being conservative. Incremental change, think in generations, work out why the fence was put up before you tear it down, that sort of thing. It's not just about Brexit, for all that is totemic. (After all, a conservative approach to being Eurosceptic would have been to take Dave's deal and set it in concrete. It probably would have stuck.)

And then there's Starmer's speech today (there's a link here; https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1657353519165321216). Large chunks of it read like the sort of thing that a One Nation Tory of previous generations- Iain Macleod, say, could have said. But it's really hard to see who is standing up for this sort of thing in the current setup.

What was the "conservative" option to disengage with the EU given it had taken a "conservative" attitude to steadily ratcheting up integration over several decades to arrive at such a decidedly objectionable position to so many Conservatives?

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

It really isn't that. There's a place for our national flag. Big international sports events, for example, flagship (pun not meant) government buildings. But I don't want to see it as a common feature of life, always behind politicians when they speak, on hats and tee shirts and umbrellas, in municipal premises, in shops, people flying it in their houses and gardens, flags flags flags all over the place. That gives me the willies. I find it tacky at best and at worst rather sinister.

viewcode said:

Casino_Royale said:

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Conservative just means you're cautious and a bit suspicious of change, and only want to do so if you have to, and then to do so gradually. If it ain't broke dont fix it.

Of course, that in itself is reason enough why plenty of people don't like them.

The other point of view is that many people don't like change and taking this approach to Government allows for stability, consistency, broad peace, preservation of tradition/ what works, predictability and thus extra space economic growth, and stops silly ideas and radical dogma that's poorly thought through from being put into practice.

Which is why Brexit has pissed off so many natural Conservatives. Totally silly idea with radical dogma and poorly thought through.

The Conservatives won't recover until they repent of Brexitism.

I knew someone would respond (in seconds) with Brexit.

That conflicted across the principle because many Conservatives thought it was riskier to stay because of the radical change that they felt would inevitably come, which was also against their values. If you believe in conserving national sovereignty and independence, and not steadily creeping towards a federal Europe, you won't have had a problem with this.

Too many seem to miss this and focus just on the economic disruption, more often than not because they themselves aren't Conservatives.

The only unConservative bit, in my view, was in the response to the vote itself, which became too dogmatic.

Well, Brexit and its economic consequences is why the Red Wall thinks this government has failed, and why the Blue Wall hates it too.

Brexit is the political monkeys paw. You get what you wish for and regret it very quickly.

Not quickly enough, though.

But yes, at some point the Conservatives stopped being conservative. Incremental change, think in generations, work out why the fence was put up before you tear it down, that sort of thing. It's not just about Brexit, for all that is totemic. (After all, a conservative approach to being Eurosceptic would have been to take Dave's deal and set it in concrete. It probably would have stuck.)

And then there's Starmer's speech today (there's a link here; https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1657353519165321216). Large chunks of it read like the sort of thing that a One Nation Tory of previous generations- Iain Macleod, say, could have said. But it's really hard to see who is standing up for this sort of thing in the current setup.

What was the "conservative" option to disengage with the EU given it had taken a "conservative" attitude to steadily ratcheting up integration over several decades to arrive at such a decidedly objectionable position to so many Conservatives?

The rather bleak answer is that (IIRC) when Jean-Claude Juncker offered to David Cameron that the UK be moved to a newly-made up outer rim position, giving the UK much if not all of what it wanted, Cameron said no. Cameron thought he could keep UK at the heart of Europe. And seven years later here we are...

Sunil_Prasannan said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

It really isn't that. There's a place for our national flag. Big international sports events, for example, flagship (pun not meant) government buildings. But I don't want to see it as a common feature of life, always behind politicians when they speak, on hats and tee shirts and umbrellas, in municipal premises, in shops, people flying it in their houses and gardens, flags flags flags all over the place. That gives me the willies. I find it tacky at best and at worst rather sinister.

How about thongs and g-strings?

Foxy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

It really isn't that. There's a place for our national flag. Big international sports events, for example, flagship (pun not meant) government buildings. But I don't want to see it as a common feature of life, always behind politicians when they speak, on hats and tee shirts and umbrellas, in municipal premises, in shops, people flying it in their houses and gardens, flags flags flags all over the place. That gives me the willies. I find it tacky at best and at worst rather sinister.

How about thongs and g-strings?

I think those too thin to be suitable. Y fronts or other big pants show the Union Jack in all its glory.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

It really isn't that. There's a place for our national flag. Big international sports events, for example, flagship (pun not meant) government buildings. But I don't want to see it as a common feature of life, always behind politicians when they speak, on hats and tee shirts and umbrellas, in municipal premises, in shops, people flying it in their houses and gardens, flags flags flags all over the place. That gives me the willies. I find it tacky at best and at worst rather sinister.

How about thongs and g-strings?

viewcode said:

Sandpit said:

Dialup said:

https://twitter.com/globalaffairs/status/1657219168863756288

In response to legal process and to ensure Twitter remains available to the people of Turkey, we have taken action to restrict access to some content in Turkey today.

Elon Musk, defender of free speech. Not.

Given the choice of either respecting Turkish law, or being banned in Turkey, what’s he supposed to do?

Beam Twitter in directly via his Starlink satellites and tell the Turkish government to foxtrot alpha.

FrankBooth said:

DavidL said:

Sammy Allardiche once again weaves his magic at Leeds. His teams are hard to beat.

Isn't this the problem with English football? The most successful coaches are bereft of imagination, style and flair.

Why might this be? My own personal view is something deeper rooted in English culture. People with such qualities wouldn't dream of managing others but insist on treading their own path.

Stuartinromford said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

pigeon said:

viewcode said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I suppose one way to deal with the red Tory patter is to lean right into it.

Perhaps we owe @bigjohnowls an apology...

Yep, it looks very much like Labour are going to go into the next election on a platform - if you ignore their rhetoric and a few eye-catching but token policy flourishes in areas like green energy - of managing the existing state of affairs less incompetently than the Tories. They're going to go our of their way to change as little as possible.

Your march Left is heartening to see. I can't reassure you totally, since I don't know for sure, but my sense is Starmer is all about derisking the GE as far as he possibly can, and that once in power (assuming he does win) he'll prove a bit more radical than you think. So don't write him off comrade.

That's exactly what I keep warning of on here: he's saying what he needs to say to get in.

Others say it's the usual Tory scare tactics relating to a Labour leader in opposition.

But, look at what his own side say - like your good self - and the evidence at how he behaved to his own base once he won the Labour leadership election.

You don't know what you'll get with SKS.

Cheer up, flag shagging may become a protected characteristic.

There's no 'patronising contempt' from me, it's just that I don't like to see the Union Jack all over the place. It lowers the tone.

It "lowers the tone".

Jesus. It's the flag of your f-ing country.

The only possible explanation for this is intellectual snobbery: you think you're above having any form of group social identity (save that of your education and values) and look down contemptuously on those that do.

It really isn't that. There's a place for our national flag. Big international sports events, for example, flagship (pun not meant) government buildings. But I don't want to see it as a common feature of life, always behind politicians when they speak, on hats and tee shirts and umbrellas, in municipal premises, in shops, people flying it in their houses and gardens, flags flags flags all over the place. That gives me the willies. I find it tacky at best and at worst rather sinister.

Absolutely. Nationalism, like religion, is fine in moderation: it is often a force for good and provides people with a sense of belonging, shared values and comfort. But it can also be a force for terrible evil when it gets out of hand.

Yes, and it was nice having them all over the place last weekend, but it's not something to do every day.

On the other hand, flags do bring colour to a public space, and that's not to be sniffed at. On the continent, I think it helps that the national flag isn't the only one being flown- there's the province, the town, even (whisper it) the Council of Europe. But that idea of multiple, overlapping loyalties is something that Britain seems to struggle with.

Sandpit said:

viewcode said:

Sandpit said:

Dialup said:

https://twitter.com/globalaffairs/status/1657219168863756288

In response to legal process and to ensure Twitter remains available to the people of Turkey, we have taken action to restrict access to some content in Turkey today.

Elon Musk, defender of free speech. Not.

Given the choice of either respecting Turkish law, or being banned in Turkey, what’s he supposed to do?

Beam Twitter in directly via his Starlink satellites and tell the Turkish government to foxtrot alpha.

Starlink has the same problem, in that it needs to downlink to local internet providers, who have their own government censorship issues.

Chris said:

Carnyx said:

Chris said:

Carnyx said:

Chris said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

Right. That would be why economic growth is the unquestioned mantra of every elected politician in this country.

It really isn’t.

It is so.

Green Party is a sufficient counterexample, in at least one important sense of 'economic growth' - which they do question, at least in its nature.

Edit: and add the Scottish Green Party, too. That's two parties.

If the Greens hadn't condemned "austerity", perhaps you might have a point.

But really the Greens are so peripheral, aren't they? If that's the best argument you can come up with in support of this certifiably insance idea that "almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition" were not in support of growth, that tells us something.

You said "every elected politician in this country."

Absolutely. Do I need to spell it out in purple capital letters for you why I include the Greens in that? Or try to translate it into monosyllables for you? Or do you want to have another go at reading simple English?

Sandpit said:

viewcode said:

Sandpit said:

viewcode said:

Sandpit said:

Dialup said:

https://twitter.com/globalaffairs/status/1657219168863756288

In response to legal process and to ensure Twitter remains available to the people of Turkey, we have taken action to restrict access to some content in Turkey today.

Elon Musk, defender of free speech. Not.

Given the choice of either respecting Turkish law, or being banned in Turkey, what’s he supposed to do?

Beam Twitter in directly via his Starlink satellites and tell the Turkish government to foxtrot alpha.

Starlink has the same problem, in that it needs to downlink to local internet providers, who have their own government censorship issues.

IIRC, weren't there small aerials you could buy to pick up satellite internet links directly without an intermediary?

He should really go proper Bond villain (if he hasn't already). If he gave out such aerials free to the consumer then he would have the stranglehold on all tweets, and eventually all phone-based communication. Didn't satellite telly do something like that in the 90's with dishes/set-top boxes?

The problem is that Starlink isn’t his main business, and he doesn’t want countries to ban imports of Tesla cars off the back of problems with Twitter.

another_richard said:

Dialup said:

Thatcher was the least "conservative" Tory there has ever been. She was the opposite of conservative.

The same person can be a conservative or a radical depending on the circumstances.

Thatcher's radicalism in the 1980s was partly a response to the UK's problems in the 1970s.

She would have been much more conservative in the 1990s because, in her opinion, there would no longer have been the problems requiring radical change.

DavidL said:

Carnyx said:

Chris said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Gardenwalker said:

Chris said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

GIN1138 said:

Jonathan said:

Radicals: Thatcher, Blair, Brown
Conservatives: May, Cameron, Major
Populists: Johnson, Truss
Managers: Sunak, Callaghan

Hard to say what various LoO might be or might have become once in office. Corbyn liked to think of himself as radical, but was very conservative albeit from an old skool left wing perspective.

Hmm... For a "populist" Truss was remarkably unpopular... 😂

You can be a crap populist. Boris ended up pretty unpopular.

He ended up unpopular but for most of his political career he was popular. I can't think of one moment where Truss has been popular... She just always came across as being as nutty as a fruitcake lol...

Truss was prepared to be unpopular; she said so many times - presumably her idea was that when her policies resulted in economic growth, she would become popular enough to win a GE on her record. That was always wildly ambitious, and perhaps to even attempt it was nutty, though I find it faintly heroic. I'm not sure why it's making you 'lol' so much though, given that she's been replaced by someone who isn't trying to make the economy grow at all (the opposite seems to be the case, unless he's just plain thick as shit), and frankly doesn't seem to be trying to make a decent fist of the General Election either.

I'm sorry - I can't help being curious, because you seem to be pretty much the only person on earth who can't see what an unmitigated disaster Liz Truss was.

Please relieve my curiosity and tell me whether it's a sexual thing or what?

Liz, despite being loony, got one big thing right.
Britain needs to grow.

This sounds incredibly obvious, but it seems that it’s a truth that evades almost all of the governing party and likely most of the Opposition.

Right. That would be why economic growth is the unquestioned mantra of every elected politician in this country.

It really isn’t.

It is so.

Green Party is a sufficient counterexample, in at least one important sense of 'economic growth' - which they do question, at least in its nature.

Edit: and add the Scottish Green Party, too. That's two parties.

Do the Scottish Greens actually care about anything other than gender?

FrankBooth said:

noneoftheabove said:

FrankBooth said:

DavidL said:

Sammy Allardiche once again weaves his magic at Leeds. His teams are hard to beat.

Isn't this the problem with English football? The most successful coaches are bereft of imagination, style and flair.

Why might this be? My own personal view is something deeper rooted in English culture. People with such qualities wouldn't dream of managing others but insist on treading their own path.

English football has the best league in the world and one of the top 4 international teams in the world. Sure it has problems but plenty of very good coaches now at all levels, in a way that there was not twenty years ago.

Why? We embraced immigration of people and new ideas, after decades of battling it and restricting the number of foreigners.

Doesn't this just sum up what is wrong?

The answer to everything is getting foreigners to do it. As for top 4 international side - they haven't won anything for 60 years. No English manager has won the League in 30 years and precious few have had success abroad. However none of this matters as there'll always be foreigners to do things for us.

Maybe there are now actually good quality English coaches. We'll see, not many have made it to the top yet. The Premier League being the best in the world is due to money. Probably the global interest resulting from language and legacy of empire.

Leon said:

Talking of travels. Just had my fourth free mojito in Hurghada

Cookie said:

FrankBooth said:

noneoftheabove said:

FrankBooth said:

DavidL said:

Sammy Allardiche once again weaves his magic at Leeds. His teams are hard to beat.

Isn't this the problem with English football? The most successful coaches are bereft of imagination, style and flair.

Why might this be? My own personal view is something deeper rooted in English culture. People with such qualities wouldn't dream of managing others but insist on treading their own path.

English football has the best league in the world and one of the top 4 international teams in the world. Sure it has problems but plenty of very good coaches now at all levels, in a way that there was not twenty years ago.

Why? We embraced immigration of people and new ideas, after decades of battling it and restricting the number of foreigners.

Doesn't this just sum up what is wrong?

The answer to everything is getting foreigners to do it. As for top 4 international side - they haven't won anything for 60 years. No English manager has won the League in 30 years and precious few have had success abroad. However none of this matters as there'll always be foreigners to do things for us.

Maybe there are now actually good quality English coaches. We'll see, not many have made it to the top yet. The Premier League being the best in the world is due to money. Probably the global interest resulting from language and legacy of empire.

It's hard to see in what respect Englosh football is 'better' than it was in, say, the late 80s/early 90s. I'd swap the overpriced, sugar-coated confection we have now for the affordable authenticity of those days in a heartbeat. I suspect most would do the same.

Cookie said:

Cookie said:

FrankBooth said:

noneoftheabove said:

FrankBooth said:

DavidL said:

Sammy Allardiche once again weaves his magic at Leeds. His teams are hard to beat.

Isn't this the problem with English football? The most successful coaches are bereft of imagination, style and flair.

Why might this be? My own personal view is something deeper rooted in English culture. People with such qualities wouldn't dream of managing others but insist on treading their own path.

English football has the best league in the world and one of the top 4 international teams in the world. Sure it has problems but plenty of very good coaches now at all levels, in a way that there was not twenty years ago.

Why? We embraced immigration of people and new ideas, after decades of battling it and restricting the number of foreigners.

Doesn't this just sum up what is wrong?

The answer to everything is getting foreigners to do it. As for top 4 international side - they haven't won anything for 60 years. No English manager has won the League in 30 years and precious few have had success abroad. However none of this matters as there'll always be foreigners to do things for us.

Maybe there are now actually good quality English coaches. We'll see, not many have made it to the top yet. The Premier League being the best in the world is due to money. Probably the global interest resulting from language and legacy of empire.

It's hard to see in what respect Englosh football is 'better' than it was in, say, the late 80s/early 90s. I'd swap the overpriced, sugar-coated confection we have now for the affordable authenticity of those days in a heartbeat. I suspect most would do the same.

I post this from time to time - but watch this and tell me whether what he have today or what we had then is better.
https://youtu.be/WCm3bS6wXvk

Cookie said:

FrankBooth said:

noneoftheabove said:

FrankBooth said:

DavidL said:

Sammy Allardiche once again weaves his magic at Leeds. His teams are hard to beat.

Isn't this the problem with English football? The most successful coaches are bereft of imagination, style and flair.

Why might this be? My own personal view is something deeper rooted in English culture. People with such qualities wouldn't dream of managing others but insist on treading their own path.

English football has the best league in the world and one of the top 4 international teams in the world. Sure it has problems but plenty of very good coaches now at all levels, in a way that there was not twenty years ago.

Why? We embraced immigration of people and new ideas, after decades of battling it and restricting the number of foreigners.

Doesn't this just sum up what is wrong?

The answer to everything is getting foreigners to do it. As for top 4 international side - they haven't won anything for 60 years. No English manager has won the League in 30 years and precious few have had success abroad. However none of this matters as there'll always be foreigners to do things for us.

Maybe there are now actually good quality English coaches. We'll see, not many have made it to the top yet. The Premier League being the best in the world is due to money. Probably the global interest resulting from language and legacy of empire.

It's hard to see in what respect Englosh football is 'better' than it was in, say, the late 80s/early 90s. I'd swap the overpriced, sugar-coated confection we have now for the affordable authenticity of those days in a heartbeat. I suspect most would do the same.

Leon said:

Talking of travels. Just had my fourth free mojito in Hurghada

LostPassword said:

edmundintokyo said:

Seems like Russian air defence is working effectively, they just took down a plane and 2 helicopters.

Seems to be two planes and two helicopters. Naturally some Russians believe that this is a sign that F-16s are already in Ukraine. I'm sure Dura will explain why this couldn't be done with F-16s.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657368124788809728

"🇺🇦 Ukraine Weapons Tracker
@UAWeapons
One of the worst days ever for the Russian Air Force: Today, at least 4 aircraft- an Su-34 strike jet, an Su-35 fighter and two Mi-8 helicopters, were shot down by anti-air missiles over Bryansk Oblast within Russia.

So far it is unclear what kind of missiles were used."