I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
And herein I think lies the difficulty. In a sense nothing has changed. As honest people know the Brexit referendum was a choice between two ultimately unsatisfactory options. The only option favoured by a real and lasting majority in the UK would be a different sort of EU. This EU would have no state-like aims (so no ECB, no Euro, no Potemkin parliament, FOM only if bilaterally chosen between willing states).
The creation of the Euro - which SFAICS cannot be undone - was the ending of any such hope.
It's like domestic politics - a choice as to which is worse, Tory or Labour. It is quite possible we shall decide that it is worse to be out of than in the EU; but it would be delusional to think that the preference for In would be keen, committed or enthusiastic. The old issues of democratic deficit and Eurostate would immediately emerge.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
Quote me where I ever made a racist argument....wasn't me complaining about white christian immigration being curtailed in favour of picking people by what they brought to the country that was you so dont be a hyprocrite when the only racist here is you
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
Believe!
Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
Where to? Why? How?
Explain.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
And herein I think lies the difficulty. In a sense nothing has changed. As honest people know the Brexit referendum was a choice between two ultimately unsatisfactory options. The only option favoured by a real and lasting majority in the UK would be a different sort of EU. This EU would have no state-like aims (so no ECB, no Euro, no Potemkin parliament, FOM only if bilaterally chosen between willing states).
The creation of the Euro - which SFAICS cannot be undone - was the ending of any such hope.
It's like domestic politics - a choice as to which is worse, Tory or Labour. It is quite possible we shall decide that it is worse to be out of than in the EU; but it would be delusional to think that the preference for In would be keen, committed or enthusiastic. The old issues of democratic deficit and Eurostate would immediately emerge.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Nah, Rejoin dies when a centre left government gets in, and people can feel happier about how Britain isn't "Nasty" any more. Half of it is just Tory-hate transferred to whatever question the pollster asks.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc. In fact didn't we see just today that Labour opposes free movement? If 61% of the public really wanted Rejoin with all it entails there would be no need for Labour to take such a stance.
My hunch is "Rejoin" to a lot of people is a cakeist position, they want the good without the bad. That has never been on offer, if it was we would never have left.
There is no single "European" culture. You would expect Brexiteers to appreciate that more than most. German culture is different to French culture which is different to Finnish culture which is different to Swedish culture which is different to Irish culture, and so on. This applies to political culture too.
I was (and still am) proud of Britain's place as a European nation, whilst retaining Britain's quirks and unique culture. I am a product of Britain after all, but I am also a product of my French grandmother and my Polish grandfather.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Brexit undermined trade environment Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows) Red tape little changed Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability On its own, each factor above prob manageable. Together, an unpalatable cocktail
She preferred the unmanaged decline of the Johnson years.
Unmanaged decline is of course better because there's always a chance things accidentally go well. A fairly efficient operator pulling the flush chain on the country is obviously a far worse situation than a chaotic mismanager.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Has there ever been an disliked (rather than merely unliked) politician who came into their own in the second half of their career? She doesn't seem like someone who could make that journey in the eyes of the public.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
Brexit undermined trade environment Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows) Red tape little changed Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability On its own, each factor above prob manageable. Together, an unpalatable cocktail
They are all connected though.
Brexit seems to have increased red tape, and is the root cause of the political disruption of the last several years.
Britain just looks like a fucked country at the moment.
History suggests that things will start improving with a new government.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
That is not racist it is rational
The only person who brought up racism was you. You have issues.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.
Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
Seven years after the country voted to leave the EU, the daily arguments over what precisely that meant and how precisely to do it still have the freshness of a vegetable rotting in a Great British field for want of any Great Brit to pick it. Brexit is a journey, not a destination – like a late-night trip on TransPennine Express, or “life” on Instagram.
Incredibly, the Conservative party has now found yet another way to divide itself over the issue. Yes, even its splits have splits. Brexiteers themselves have now subdivided into diehards and compromisers. Expect both those categories to subdivide again soon, as we hurtle inexorably towards the logical end of the Brexit process: hundreds of individual politicians screaming into hundreds of individual TV cameras that only they can fix it.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
Not to mention it's actually different: the new immigrants are no-recourse-to-public-funds initially.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a fu
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.
Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
Scousers are british, we have a british governement. The point of a governement is to do the best for the people they represent. I suspect allowing scousers being allowed to move to london to take up jobs is a lot less impactful that letting all of europe to move to london to take up jobs when it comes to lifting them out of minimum wage
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
That is not racist it is rational
You're talking about green people with yellow spots, you don't get to play the "rational" card sorry.
I'm sorry this hasn't worked out for you, but as explained, the idea of free movement isn't about racial or religious characteristics, and I would really like you to stop and think about what you're saying. Do you think everybody on here who is reading this and who is from this country or an EU country, do you think they are all white Christians? Because you're argument, apart from being wrong on its own merits, is erasing all those other people.
Again, it's wrong because free movement isn't predicated on anything other than membership of a single market. We have the same thing within countries too: I am free to move from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall if I choose. That isn't racist against someone from Mozambique who has to apply for permission to live in Truro. Your argument invites the conclusion that every country is racist for having internal free movement and restricted immigration. That's a silly conclusion and so you should wind your accusations in.
Only one person lost the argument. Have a nice night
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
Have you heard of an entity called the Conservative and Unionist Party?
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
Believe!
Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
Where to? Why? How?
Explain.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.
Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
Not to mention it's actually different: the new immigrants are no-recourse-to-public-funds initially.
Migration is an issue that's not going away, and nobody has a good answer — one side frankly doesn't even feel comfortable discussing it — and when climate change really kicks in it's going to become a massive problem. I don't know the answer either, but I do know ignoring it won't magically fix things.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
Have you heard of an entity called the Conservative and Unionist Party?
26 of them left in Parliament if the Omnisis poll is correct.
Brexit undermined trade environment Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows) Red tape little changed Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability On its own, each factor above prob manageable. Together, an unpalatable cocktail
They are all connected though.
Brexit seems to have increased red tape, and is the root cause of the political disruption of the last several years.
Britain just looks like a fucked country at the moment.
History suggests that things will start improving with a new government.
History doesn't suggest that; this is just confirmation bias.
(I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)
New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.
State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.
The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.
Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing. Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.
But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
You missed one…
Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
It was the winner in a competition to replace this, the old one….
Good grief.
I am irresistibly reminded of my Hamlet:
It's humble And waits upon the judgment, and what judgment Would step from this to this? What devil was't That thus has cozened you at hoodman-blind?
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Has there ever been an disliked (rather than merely unliked) politician who came into their own in the second half of their career? She doesn't seem like someone who could make that journey in the eyes of the public.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA
The USA is a republic
This just shows how you don't think things through.
You keep repeating "most countries in the world are republics" as if it's some sort of killer point.
I must admit, if we are going to have an alternative national anthem, it should be Never Forgot by Take That.
It manages to combine pride in your family, your community, and your country all in one - with a little bit of regality thrown in for good measure. It's very British.
And, oh, my, what a performance at the Coronation Concert with the band of the Royal Marines and massive Union Flag projected on Windsor Castle on top? Amazing:
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
That’s my best guess, right now.
Gove looks value, to me. Mordaunt overpriced and Badenoch a clear lay.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA
The USA is a republic
This just shows how you don't think things through.
You keep repeating "most countries in the world are republics" as if it's some sort of killer point.
It isn't.
But you just said "Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA". But the USA has been a republic since 1783.
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.
What have they done? Is it they have treated us as if we are no longer members and we are shocked by this?
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
I think COVID lockdowns had a big effect - it certainly correlates with similar changes around the world.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
I think COVID lockdowns had a big effect - it certainly correlates with similar changes around the world.
Certainly true as I said there is a complex web, one of those inputs to the web is lessening the recruitment pool however
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.
What have they done? Is it they have treated us as if we are no longer members and we are shocked by this?
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
Admit it, this was ChatGPT.
Very well deduced! “Please write a post on a social media forum comparing the prospect of rejoining the EU after Brexit to the recovery of Crimea by Ukraine following the 2022 Russian invasion”.
I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
The slight problem for the idea of Rejoin is whether we would be welcomed back. Does Europe really want a country that still has a large number of swivel-eyed moaners and whingers? Probably not.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
No I don’t have any issues but thank you for checking in with me Casino_Royale. You are a kind and caring chap.
You are Horse (we all know it) and falling into precisely the same issues you had under your previous pseudonym: the neediness, the desperate matynesss, being on here 24 hours a day, the craven search for an identity- the need to anchor that identity in opposition to those of others. Your somewhat amateur experimentation with humour.
Yep, you have issues. But, hey ho - none of us are perfect.
You are as always too kind. Thank you for your kind words! Stay well too matey, much love and hope you get the help you need.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
Fine, but it's not now. The point stands, though. You seem to be missing an important (an influential) current within Remain circles of not just perceiving Europe in a political and cultural context, but actively mining it. What you initially said about "all their cultural cues from the USA" is disproved by knowledge of this current. If you want to claim that such a current wasn't present in the 70s then you'd still be wrong but it might need evidence from different areas.
You asserting that it's not disproved is not the same as you actually disproving it.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Hmmm. Person who voted Leave and is still unapologetic accuses others of stupidity! It is a bit like Boris Johnson accusing someone of being dishonest or lambasting them for being an adulterer.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
And it’s 48 years later and England is more Eurosceptic than Scotland. Or was until the 60-40 split was a fixture in rejoin polling. Things change.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
As a very late convert to having a dog they are wonderful, although a huge responsibility and cost. The biggest surprise was how many people you meet. Everyone talks to you. Although it maybe ours is just very cute
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Covid has really muddied the picture, because everywhere saw very sharp rises in wages as economies reopened and firms faced labour shortages.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. Isn't he saying that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them?
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
We have had dogs at Mum's all my life so it is a lovely honour to have one of my own.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. He said that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them.
Well, that's not how I read it. All other considerations apart, we now know not only that any arguments they put forward were false but that quite a number of people knew they were false at the time.
Moreover, it seems bizarre to complain that the defence were demanding unparalleled disclosure and bitch about Horizon 'bandwagons.' The reason unparalleled disclosure was required was because of a vast coverup, and the 'bandwagon' was in fact the truth. Which his firm went to great lengths to conceal.
Nothing will happen to the bastard of course, especially since I believe he's now retired. But that email should trash his reputation.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
The slight problem for the idea of Rejoin is whether we would be welcomed back. Does Europe really want a country that still has a large number of swivel-eyed moaners and whingers? Probably not.
Israel has kindly written a song for the Brexiters, you can hear it on TV tomorrow night…
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
So it's passably mediocre?
I would upgrade Geneva to pleasantly mediocre.
I've only been in its airport and railway station so I'll take your word
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
We have had dogs at Mum's all my life so it is a lovely honour to have one of my own.
Comments
Explain.
My hunch is "Rejoin" to a lot of people is a cakeist position, they want the good without the bad. That has never been on offer, if it was we would never have left.
I was (and still am) proud of Britain's place as a European nation, whilst retaining Britain's quirks and unique culture. I am a product of Britain after all, but I am also a product of my French grandmother and my Polish grandfather.
And it will be a living nightmare until some politician has the balls to put a referendum in a manifesto and run on it and go back into the EU.”
Said @NoelGallagher.
Brexit undermined trade environment
Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows)
Red tape little changed
Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability
On its own, each factor above prob manageable.
Together, an unpalatable cocktail
A statement issued on behalf of The Stand. Our solicitor's correspondence with Joanna Cherry's legal team can be found here: tinyurl.com/2mkt2w4d
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
That is not racist it is rational
Brexit seems to have increased red tape, and is the root cause of the political disruption of the last several years.
Britain just looks like a fucked country at the moment.
History suggests that things will start improving with a new government.
You have issues.
Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
Incredibly, the Conservative party has now found yet another way to divide itself over the issue. Yes, even its splits have splits. Brexiteers themselves have now subdivided into diehards and compromisers. Expect both those categories to subdivide again soon, as we hurtle inexorably towards the logical end of the Brexit process: hundreds of individual politicians screaming into hundreds of individual TV cameras that only they can fix it.
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1657116781931122702
Explain. That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
I am irresistibly reminded of my Hamlet:
It's humble
And waits upon the judgment, and what judgment
Would step from this to this? What devil was't
That thus has cozened you at hoodman-blind?
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
You keep repeating "most countries in the world are republics" as if it's some sort of killer point.
It isn't.
It manages to combine pride in your family, your community, and your country all in one - with a little bit of regality thrown in for good measure. It's very British.
And, oh, my, what a performance at the Coronation Concert with the band of the Royal Marines and massive Union Flag projected on Windsor Castle on top? Amazing:
https://youtu.be/lcrg8ZkGIi8
In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.
But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?
Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
That’s my best guess, right now.
Gove looks value, to me. Mordaunt overpriced and Badenoch a clear lay.
https://twitter.com/TomLarkinSky/status/1657093237738201092?t=nQIEq55wv8wOzLF9cTyNCA&s=19
Explain. Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
My point is bang on, and well you know it.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
One is the sort that decides it has made a mistake, admits it and seeks to do something to fix the problem.
The other digs its heels in and doubles down.
One of those types of stupid is actually very smart.
In good news, I’ve just brought home my first dog
Or was until the 60-40 split was a fixture in rejoin polling.
Things change.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system,
but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Congrats. I hope it brings you both joy.
She is a beautiful - and sleepy - black lab
Moreover, it seems bizarre to complain that the defence were demanding unparalleled disclosure and bitch about Horizon 'bandwagons.' The reason unparalleled disclosure was required was because of a vast coverup, and the 'bandwagon' was in fact the truth. Which his firm went to great lengths to conceal.
Nothing will happen to the bastard of course, especially since I believe he's now retired. But that email should trash his reputation.