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Punters rate Trump as a 23.8% chance to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

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  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    ohnotnow said:

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    My overriding memory of Geneva is heading out of the hotel in the morning at about 7.30/8am and various woman propositioning me in the street by lifting their skirts, showing their 'front bottoms' and asking 'Do you want?'.

    That and wig shops. So many wig shops.
    Are you sure this wasn't a dream?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    ohnotnow said:

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    My overriding memory of Geneva is heading out of the hotel in the morning at about 7.30/8am and various woman propositioning me in the street by lifting their skirts, showing their 'front bottoms' and asking 'Do you want?'.

    That and wig shops. So many wig shops.
    Er, what?

    I've never had anything more exciting than a Swiss banker.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,163
    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    My mother in law told my wife she voted Brexit because, quote “soon Christians will be outnumbered by Muslims in our own country”.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Omnium said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Completely ridiculous post.
    What else do you call it when someone says we should prioritise eu nationals over others?

    Immigration should be about skills we need regardless of creed or colour not

    you are the correct colour and religion so we will let you in to be a barista
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,163
    Pagan2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Completely ridiculous post.
    What else do you call it when someone says we should prioritise eu nationals over others?

    Immigration should be about skills we need regardless of creed or colour not

    you are the correct colour and religion so we will let you in to be a barista
    My brexiteer mother in law appears to see things differently.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    It seems to me that the only box Britain was forced into was that of its current state: deeply endebted, no strategy for growth, its trade policy in tatters.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Completely ridiculous post.
    What else do you call it when someone says we should prioritise eu nationals over others?

    Immigration should be about skills we need regardless of creed or colour not

    you are the correct colour and religion so we will let you in to be a barista
    My brexiteer mother in law appears to see things differently.
    Screaming racism is the last gasp of Brexitry.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    Heathener said:

    So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.

    And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.

    As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.

    Firstly, I’m predicting the Tories to move upward in tomorrows Opinium. If they’ve bothered to do one.
    I know it will be Tory increase because the last sample had them down so much in one go, the next sample will correct this.

    Secondly, the polls showing the Tories on the up were more indicative of the state of play then these polls showing wider lead for Labour, I know this is the case because the polls creating the Tory upward line were fuelled by Tory don’t knows saying Tory instead, back in the fold, so you have to believe Sunak has most those votes when it comes to an election, hence the Labour lead will be much smaller.
    Have you seen the latest Wikiworm though?



    OK, it's oversensitive to the latest poll (which does look a bit outliery). But the changes in the red and blue line need a swanee whistle to accompany them. Imagine Sid James seeing Barbara Windsor for the red line, then Hattie Jacques for the blue.

    If the worm is to be believed, we're back to mid-February, and most of Sunak's Spring Surgette has unwound.
    “Have you seen the latest Wikiworm”

    You mean the Boob Chart? Where’s ever you look there’s tits.

    Yes I agree with your point, there’s been some turn around. A fortnight ago the Tories had a steep upward line on the end, this is now a comely pair of breasts.

    I asked down thread what caused this, from a Tory perspective knowing what will know how exactly to un-cause it.

    If they went up based so much on Sunak’s popularity, will that ever improve again this parliament.
    Udder confusion?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA
    The USA is a republic :lol:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    She preferred the unmanaged decline of the Johnson years.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    And herein I think lies the difficulty. In a sense nothing has changed. As honest people know the Brexit referendum was a choice between two ultimately unsatisfactory options. The only option favoured by a real and lasting majority in the UK would be a different sort of EU. This EU would have no state-like aims (so no ECB, no Euro, no Potemkin parliament, FOM only if bilaterally chosen between willing states).

    The creation of the Euro - which SFAICS cannot be undone - was the ending of any such hope.

    It's like domestic politics - a choice as to which is worse, Tory or Labour. It is quite possible we shall decide that it is worse to be out of than in the EU; but it would be delusional to think that the preference for In would be keen, committed or enthusiastic. The old issues of democratic deficit and Eurostate would immediately emerge.

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    Quote me where I ever made a racist argument....wasn't me complaining about white christian immigration being curtailed in favour of picking people by what they brought to the country that was you so dont be a hyprocrite when the only racist here is you
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    And herein I think lies the difficulty. In a sense nothing has changed. As honest people know the Brexit referendum was a choice between two ultimately unsatisfactory options. The only option favoured by a real and lasting majority in the UK would be a different sort of EU. This EU would have no state-like aims (so no ECB, no Euro, no Potemkin parliament, FOM only if bilaterally chosen between willing states).

    The creation of the Euro - which SFAICS cannot be undone - was the ending of any such hope.

    It's like domestic politics - a choice as to which is worse, Tory or Labour. It is quite possible we shall decide that it is worse to be out of than in the EU; but it would be delusional to think that the preference for In would be keen, committed or enthusiastic. The old issues of democratic deficit and Eurostate would immediately emerge.

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Nah, Rejoin dies when a centre left government gets in, and people can feel happier about how Britain isn't "Nasty" any more. Half of it is just Tory-hate transferred to whatever question the pollster asks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited May 2023

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited May 2023
    Foxy said:

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc. In fact didn't we see just today that Labour opposes free movement? If 61% of the public really wanted Rejoin with all it entails there would be no need for Labour to take such a stance.

    My hunch is "Rejoin" to a lot of people is a cakeist position, they want the good without the bad. That has never been on offer, if it was we would never have left.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    There is no single "European" culture. You would expect Brexiteers to appreciate that more than most. German culture is different to French culture which is different to Finnish culture which is different to Swedish culture which is different to Irish culture, and so on. This applies to political culture too.

    I was (and still am) proud of Britain's place as a European nation, whilst retaining Britain's quirks and unique culture. I am a product of Britain after all, but I am also a product of my French grandmother and my Polish grandfather.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
    There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    “Brexit has been a fucking absolute unmitigated disaster.

    And it will be a living nightmare until some politician has the balls to put a referendum in a manifesto and run on it and go back into the EU.”

    Said ⁦@NoelGallagher⁩.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    @EdConwaySky

    Brexit undermined trade environment
    Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows)
    Red tape little changed
    Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability
    On its own, each factor above prob manageable.
    Together, an unpalatable cocktail
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    rcs1000 said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    She preferred the unmanaged decline of the Johnson years.
    Unmanaged decline is of course better because there's always a chance things accidentally go well. A fairly efficient operator pulling the flush chain on the country is obviously a far worse situation than a chaotic mismanager.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_xP said:

    “Brexit has been a fucking absolute unmitigated disaster.

    And it will be a living nightmare until some politician has the balls to put a referendum in a manifesto and run on it and go back into the EU.”

    Said ⁦@NoelGallagher⁩.

    Formerly a Brexiter, in fact.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    @StandComedyClub

    A statement issued on behalf of The Stand. Our solicitor's correspondence with Joanna Cherry's legal team can be found here: tinyurl.com/2mkt2w4d
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    edited May 2023

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Has there ever been an disliked (rather than merely unliked) politician who came into their own in the second half of their career? She doesn't seem like someone who could make that journey in the eyes of the public.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
    There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
    Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
    Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.

    I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.

    That is not racist it is rational
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_xP said:

    @EdConwaySky

    Brexit undermined trade environment
    Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows)
    Red tape little changed
    Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability
    On its own, each factor above prob manageable.
    Together, an unpalatable cocktail

    They are all connected though.

    Brexit seems to have increased red tape, and is the root cause of the political disruption of the last several years.

    Britain just looks like a fucked country at the moment.

    History suggests that things will start improving with a new government.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
    Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    I have to admit, you've got me there. That is a full list of all cultural cues, and all of them were invented in America. And nobody - not one single person - takes any cultural cues from any other country. Can't believe I never noticed it before you pointed it out.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
    Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.

    I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.

    That is not racist it is rational
    The only person who brought up racism was you.
    You have issues.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.

    Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Seven years after the country voted to leave the EU, the daily arguments over what precisely that meant and how precisely to do it still have the freshness of a vegetable rotting in a Great British field for want of any Great Brit to pick it. Brexit is a journey, not a destination – like a late-night trip on TransPennine Express, or “life” on Instagram.

    Incredibly, the Conservative party has now found yet another way to divide itself over the issue. Yes, even its splits have splits. Brexiteers themselves have now subdivided into diehards and compromisers. Expect both those categories to subdivide again soon, as we hurtle inexorably towards the logical end of the Brexit process: hundreds of individual politicians screaming into hundreds of individual TV cameras that only they can fix it.

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1657116781931122702
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    edited May 2023
    glw said:

    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
    There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
    Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
    Not to mention it's actually different: the new immigrants are no-recourse-to-public-funds initially.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
    Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
    Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    edited May 2023
    Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
    Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
    Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a fu
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.

    Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
    Scousers are british, we have a british governement. The point of a governement is to do the best for the people they represent. I suspect allowing scousers being allowed to move to london to take up jobs is a lot less impactful that letting all of europe to move to london to take up jobs when it comes to lifting them out of minimum wage
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Scott_xP said:

    “Brexit has been a fucking absolute unmitigated disaster.

    And it will be a living nightmare until some politician has the balls to put a referendum in a manifesto and run on it and go back into the EU.”

    Said ⁦@NoelGallagher⁩.

    Formerly a Brexiter, in fact.
    Oh well if Noel Gallagher says it was a bad idea...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Or the pre-loss era.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited May 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
    Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.

    I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.

    That is not racist it is rational
    You're talking about green people with yellow spots, you don't get to play the "rational" card sorry.

    I'm sorry this hasn't worked out for you, but as explained, the idea of free movement isn't about racial or religious characteristics, and I would really like you to stop and think about what you're saying. Do you think everybody on here who is reading this and who is from this country or an EU country, do you think they are all white Christians? Because your argument, apart from being wrong on its own merits, is erasing all those other people.

    Again, it's wrong because free movement isn't predicated on anything other than membership of a single market. We have the same thing within countries too: I am free to move from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall if I choose. That isn't racist against someone from Mozambique who has to apply for permission to live in Truro. Your argument invites the conclusion that every country is racist for having internal free movement and restricted immigration. That's a silly conclusion and so you should wind your accusations in.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?

    I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
    He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
    Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.

    I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.

    That is not racist it is rational
    You're talking about green people with yellow spots, you don't get to play the "rational" card sorry.

    I'm sorry this hasn't worked out for you, but as explained, the idea of free movement isn't about racial or religious characteristics, and I would really like you to stop and think about what you're saying. Do you think everybody on here who is reading this and who is from this country or an EU country, do you think they are all white Christians? Because you're argument, apart from being wrong on its own merits, is erasing all those other people.

    Again, it's wrong because free movement isn't predicated on anything other than membership of a single market. We have the same thing within countries too: I am free to move from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall if I choose. That isn't racist against someone from Mozambique who has to apply for permission to live in Truro. Your argument invites the conclusion that every country is racist for having internal free movement and restricted immigration. That's a silly conclusion and so you should wind your accusations in.
    Only one person lost the argument. Have a nice night
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163
    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    Have you heard of an entity called the Conservative and Unionist Party?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    carnforth said:

    glw said:

    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    Foxy said:

    Well, the shift of opinion is only going one way. Rejoin is not going to die as an issue. Its only a matter of time when we next vote on it. Brexit is so tainted by failure.


    Honestly I think that question is being answered more in terms of "well or badly?", because when questioned about the specifics of EU membership the public still looks to be disinclined to adopt free movement etc.
    There are so many people coming here already, what difference is it going to make?
    Because if people are unhappy with immigration selling the "free movement for 450 million more" position may prove tricky.
    Not to mention it's actually different: the new immigrants are no-recourse-to-public-funds initially.
    Migration is an issue that's not going away, and nobody has a good answer — one side frankly doesn't even feel comfortable discussing it — and when climate change really kicks in it's going to become a massive problem. I don't know the answer either, but I do know ignoring it won't magically fix things.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Tres said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    Have you heard of an entity called the Conservative and Unionist Party?
    26 of them left in Parliament if the Omnisis poll is correct.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    Scott_xP said:

    @EdConwaySky

    Brexit undermined trade environment
    Removal of freedom of movement disrupted immigration (tho not ex-EU flows)
    Red tape little changed
    Events of last Sep undermined reputation for political stability
    On its own, each factor above prob manageable.
    Together, an unpalatable cocktail

    They are all connected though.

    Brexit seems to have increased red tape, and is the root cause of the political disruption of the last several years.

    Britain just looks like a fucked country at the moment.

    History suggests that things will start improving with a new government.
    History doesn't suggest that; this is just confirmation bias.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    It was the winner in a competition to replace this, the old one….
    Good grief.

    I am irresistibly reminded of my Hamlet:

    It's humble
    And waits upon the judgment, and what judgment
    Would step from this to this? What devil was't
    That thus has cozened you at hoodman-blind?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
    True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.

    Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.

    The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,163
    Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.

    But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?

    But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?

    Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    carnforth said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Has there ever been an disliked (rather than merely unliked) politician who came into their own in the second half of their career? She doesn't seem like someone who could make that journey in the eyes of the public.
    Margaret Thatcher.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA
    The USA is a republic :lol:
    This just shows how you don't think things through.

    You keep repeating "most countries in the world are republics" as if it's some sort of killer point.

    It isn't.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    I must admit, if we are going to have an alternative national anthem, it should be Never Forgot by Take That.

    It manages to combine pride in your family, your community, and your country all in one - with a little bit of regality thrown in for good measure. It's very British.

    And, oh, my, what a performance at the Coronation Concert with the band of the Royal Marines and massive Union Flag projected on Windsor Castle on top? Amazing:

    https://youtu.be/lcrg8ZkGIi8
  • pingping Posts: 3,724
    edited May 2023

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.

    That’s my best guess, right now.

    Gove looks value, to me. Mordaunt overpriced and Badenoch a clear lay.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA
    The USA is a republic :lol:
    This just shows how you don't think things through.

    You keep repeating "most countries in the world are republics" as if it's some sort of killer point.

    It isn't.
    But you just said "Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA". But the USA has been a republic since 1783.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    TimS said:

    Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.

    But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?

    But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?

    Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.

    Admit it, this was ChatGPT.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited May 2023

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
    True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.

    Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.

    The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
    Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries.
    I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.

    What have they done? Is it they have treated us as if we are no longer members and we are shocked by this?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921
    edited May 2023



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    ping said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
    Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
    Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
    Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
    I think COVID lockdowns had a big effect - it certainly correlates with similar changes around the world.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
     

    ping said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
    Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
    Geoffrey

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    geoffw said:

     

    ping said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
    Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
    Geoffrey

    Apologies to Lord Howe and all other Geoff's.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more.
    It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
    Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
    Snore.
    Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
    Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
    Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
    I think COVID lockdowns had a big effect - it certainly correlates with similar changes around the world.
    Certainly true as I said there is a complex web, one of those inputs to the web is lessening the recruitment pool however
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
    True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.

    Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.

    The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
    Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries.
    I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
    Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    edited May 2023

    geoffw said:

     

    ping said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
    Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
    Geoffrey

    Apologies to Lord Howe and all other Geoff's.
    Christ!    The apostrophe.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    kjh said:

    Dial up is right... imho.... we will never rejoin. The cost will be too much. The way the EU have behaved towards us since leaving, tells you all you need to know. Never go back to "whatever" is usually a good maxim.

    What have they done? Is it they have treated us as if we are no longer members and we are shocked by this?
    They have treated us like dirt.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,163
    carnforth said:

    TimS said:

    Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.

    But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?

    But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?

    Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.

    Admit it, this was ChatGPT.
    Very well deduced! “Please write a post on a social media forum comparing the prospect of rejoining the EU after Brexit to the recovery of Crimea by Ukraine following the 2022 Russian invasion”.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

     

    ping said:

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    I don't think it's the managed decline 'of the Tory Party' she's talking about; it's the managed decline of the UK. And of course she's bang on. And interesting intervention from PP - not going to be left out of the leadership running this time apparently.
    It’s absolutely a positioning for the post-loss era.
    Alastair Meeks was tipping her at long odds, some time back.

    In any contest, think it’s very unlikely she’ll get past the MPs, who may well be reduced to a rump of wealthy shire Tory seats. She should be safe, herself, in Witham, so that is in her favour.

    But after Johnson & Truss? With few red wall MP’s?

    Nah. The shire Tory rump MPs will ignore the members and go for a Gove or Mordaunt or somesuch.
    Gove is going to be toxic after Sunak. If he's still an MP, his endorsement will be less sought after than a vomit sandwich, let alone being a leadership prospect himself. I don't think Kemi will have much of a chance either, unless she has a Jeffrey Howe moment soon.
    Geoffrey

    Apologies to Lord Howe and all other Geoff's.
    Christ!    The apostophe.

    :lol: Long week, what can I say.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    TimS said:

    Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.

    But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?

    But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?

    Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.

    The slight problem for the idea of Rejoin is whether we would be welcomed back. Does Europe really want a country that still has a large number of swivel-eyed moaners and whingers? Probably not.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    From the Horizon enquiry. Wankers.


  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
    True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.

    Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.

    The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
    Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries.
    I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
    Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
    Fine, but it's not now. The point stands, though. You seem to be missing an important (an influential) current within Remain circles of not just perceiving Europe in a political and cultural context, but actively mining it. What you initially said about "all their cultural cues from the USA" is disproved by knowledge of this current. If you want to claim that such a current wasn't present in the 70s then you'd still be wrong but it might need evidence from different areas.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561

    Dialup said:

    No I don’t have any issues but thank you for checking in with me Casino_Royale. You are a kind and caring chap.

    You are Horse (we all know it) and falling into precisely the same issues you had under your previous pseudonym: the neediness, the desperate matynesss, being on here 24 hours a day, the craven search for an identity- the need to anchor that identity in opposition to those of others. Your somewhat amateur experimentation with humour.

    Yep, you have issues. But, hey ho - none of us are perfect.
    You are as always too kind. Thank you for your kind words! Stay well too matey, much love and hope you get the help you need.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
    So it's passably mediocre?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited May 2023
    carnforth said:

    From the Horizon enquiry. Wankers.


    Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.

    Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    edited May 2023
    Farooq said:

    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
    Believe!

    Be-LEAVE in Ukraine!!
    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!
    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Farooq said:

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
    :lol:
    you truly are cracked if you think that
    How so?

    We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.

    All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.

    I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
    Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
    True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.

    Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.

    The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
    Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries.
    I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
    Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
    Fine, but it's not now. The point stands, though. You seem to be missing an important (an influential) current within Remain circles of not just perceiving Europe in a political and cultural context, but actively mining it. What you initially said about "all their cultural cues from the USA" is disproved by knowledge of this current. If you want to claim that such a current wasn't present in the 70s then you'd still be wrong but it might need evidence from different areas.
    You asserting that it's not disproved is not the same as you actually disproving it.

    My point is bang on, and well you know it.
  • DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Proud to be one of the stupid .
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    .
    kjh said:

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
    Only if they deserve it.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    kjh said:

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
    Hmmm. Person who voted Leave and is still unapologetic accuses others of stupidity! It is a bit like Boris Johnson accusing someone of being dishonest or lambasting them for being an adulterer.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
    I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.

    And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Seems like a good reason to abolish the things altogether.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    ...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,087
    Dialup said:

    Proud to be one of the stupid .

    Two sorts of stupid.

    One is the sort that decides it has made a mistake, admits it and seeks to do something to fix the problem.

    The other digs its heels in and doubles down.

    One of those types of stupid is actually very smart.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    edited May 2023

    .

    kjh said:

    .



    The Sunil of 2016 is gone!

    Where to? Why? How?

    Explain.
    Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
    That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
    Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
    And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.

    Conclusion: you don't think things through.
    You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
    Only if they deserve it.
    None of them deserved being insulted.
This discussion has been closed.