Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
And it’s 48 years later and England is more Eurosceptic than Scotland. Or was until the 60-40 split was a fixture in rejoin polling. Things change.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
As a very late convert to having a dog they are wonderful, although a huge responsibility and cost. The biggest surprise was how many people you meet. Everyone talks to you. Although it maybe ours is just very cute
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Covid has really muddied the picture, because everywhere saw very sharp rises in wages as economies reopened and firms faced labour shortages.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. Isn't he saying that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them?
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
We have had dogs at Mum's all my life so it is a lovely honour to have one of my own.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. He said that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them.
Well, that's not how I read it. All other considerations apart, we now know not only that any arguments they put forward were false but that quite a number of people knew they were false at the time.
Moreover, it seems bizarre to complain that the defence were demanding unparalleled disclosure and bitch about Horizon 'bandwagons.' The reason unparalleled disclosure was required was because of a vast coverup, and the 'bandwagon' was in fact the truth. Which his firm went to great lengths to conceal.
Nothing will happen to the bastard of course, especially since I believe he's now retired. But that email should trash his reputation.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
Rejoin is the Crimea of Brexit for remainers. Dare we? Maybe best not to poke the bear. Just get back the areas invaded in 2022. A negotiated settlement.
But why? Why not back to the 1991 borders? We have storm shadow missiles now. Why not go all the way and rejoin?
But what about the nukes? What about the Daily Mail?
Very much the same energy. I am torn. For now it’s just nice to see the flanks of Bakhmut collapsing and polling support for remain rising.
The slight problem for the idea of Rejoin is whether we would be welcomed back. Does Europe really want a country that still has a large number of swivel-eyed moaners and whingers? Probably not.
Israel has kindly written a song for the Brexiters, you can hear it on TV tomorrow night…
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
So it's passably mediocre?
I would upgrade Geneva to pleasantly mediocre.
I've only been in its airport and railway station so I'll take your word
Aw, the love of a doggy is something that is pure and beautiful. I hope he/she brings you the happiness that so many of my canine friends have brought me over the years
We have had dogs at Mum's all my life so it is a lovely honour to have one of my own.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
We do, though, need to compare wage growth rates against other developed countries though. In theory, one would expect that places that were net exporters of labour would see wages decline because there are more workers there, while we would see a meaningful rise. HOWEVER, the picture is complicated by the fact that non-EU immigration has rise so that net migration remains broadly flat, so it may be that shutting off the EU tap makes Britain more attractive to other migrants.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
I think the complaint against Geneva is that it is boring, not that it is snooty and unfriendly. To be fair it is a bit boring. Apart from having an outsized international presence for a middling city, it doesn't have any stand out features. Geneva is situated attractively enough on the lake but most of the other Swiss lakes are more scenic. It has no distinctive architecture. The old town is pleasant but there are a hundred more compelling old towns within a day's travel. The museums are decent without being world class. There's stuff to do but the arts scene isn't especially lively. It has no top level sports teams.
So it's passably mediocre?
I would upgrade Geneva to pleasantly mediocre.
Mont Blanc taken from the northern side of Lake Geneva near the city centre by yours truly back in September 2014.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.
Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
Scousers are british, we have a british governement. The point of a governement is to do the best for the people they represent. I suspect allowing scousers being allowed to move to london to take up jobs is a lot less impactful that letting all of europe to move to london to take up jobs when it comes to lifting them out of minimum wage
But, do you think allowing Scousers to work in London is generally good for the economic wealth of the country? Or bad?
Because "oh, there are more Europeans than Scousers" is a bit of a cop out.
On the other hand, it's OK to play the nationality card, obviously. There's nothing wrong with saying "we're looking to optimize the wealth of al Brits, rather than the wealth of all Europeans".
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the anticipation of eventually stretched sinew pain.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
I am not sure why you think anybody should accept that it was an error of judgement. Brexit was a binary in/out referendum, and people voted for both options for manifold reasons. Those who voted are not responsible for subsequent political activity (for the most part that has been conducted by people who opposed Brexit), which is actually what you're complaining about.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
I'm sure you know that's not how thinking works.
As more facts become established, conclusions can change. The way this is playing out isn't the worst of Project Fear, but neither is it the best hopes of Brexit backers.
As David Davis said in 2012, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Only if they deserve it.
None of them deserved being insulted.
I give as good as I get. If I am rude it's when the arguments are stupid on top where I have little respect for them.
It's entirely open for people to debate the issues alone, and to make intelligent points on top, and plenty who vehemently disagree with me manage to do so, who I also respect.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
I'm sure you know that's not how thinking works.
As more facts become established, conclusions can change. The way this is playing out isn't the worst of Project Fear, but neither is it the best hopes of Brexit backers.
As David Davis said in 2012, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.
And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.
As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.
Firstly, I’m predicting the Tories to move upward in tomorrows Opinium. If they’ve bothered to do one. I know it will be Tory increase because the last sample had them down so much in one go, the next sample will correct this.
Secondly, the polls showing the Tories on the up were more indicative of the state of play then these polls showing wider lead for Labour, I know this is the case because the polls creating the Tory upward line were fuelled by Tory don’t knows saying Tory instead, back in the fold, so you have to believe Sunak has most those votes when it comes to an election, hence the Labour lead will be much smaller.
Have you seen the latest Wikiworm though?
OK, it's oversensitive to the latest poll (which does look a bit outliery). But the changes in the red and blue line need a swanee whistle to accompany them. Imagine Sid James seeing Barbara Windsor for the red line, then Hattie Jacques for the blue.
If the worm is to be believed, we're back to mid-February, and most of Sunak's Spring Surgette has unwound.
“Have you seen the latest Wikiworm”
You mean the Boob Chart? Where’s ever you look there’s tits.
Yes I agree with your point, there’s been some turn around. A fortnight ago the Tories had a steep upward line on the end, this is now a comely pair of breasts.
I asked down thread what caused this, from a Tory perspective knowing what will know how exactly to un-cause it.
If they went up based so much on Sunak’s popularity, will that ever improve again this parliament.
Udder confusion?
Clear enough in my mind to think those aggressive attack ads from Labour, targeting Sunak and tying him to the thirteen years, helped produce this shift on the chart.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
I'm sure you know that's not how thinking works.
As more facts become established, conclusions can change. The way this is playing out isn't the worst of Project Fear, but neither is it the best hopes of Brexit backers.
As David Davis said in 2012, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
What do you do when a plan doesn't go to plan?
The EU wasn’t the problem before Brexit, it just got blamed by Brexiteers for everything. The danger now is the fixation that rejoining will fix all the problems. That’s as unlikely as the first proposition. And beware any poll on rejoin that doesn’t probe the conditions of rejoining.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
That is not racist it is rational
You're talking about green people with yellow spots, you don't get to play the "rational" card sorry.
I'm sorry this hasn't worked out for you, but as explained, the idea of free movement isn't about racial or religious characteristics, and I would really like you to stop and think about what you're saying. Do you think everybody on here who is reading this and who is from this country or an EU country, do you think they are all white Christians? Because you're argument, apart from being wrong on its own merits, is erasing all those other people.
Again, it's wrong because free movement isn't predicated on anything other than membership of a single market. We have the same thing within countries too: I am free to move from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall if I choose. That isn't racist against someone from Mozambique who has to apply for permission to live in Truro. Your argument invites the conclusion that every country is racist for having internal free movement and restricted immigration. That's a silly conclusion and so you should wind your accusations in.
Only one person lost the argument. Have a nice night
Well, let me turn this around.
No part of the United States has - over the last 40 years - seen greater amounts of immigration (both from inside the US and from around the world) as the Bay Area.
Yet it is hard to rationally conclude that has driven down the price of software engineers. Indeed, the Bay Area is - without a doubt - the most expensive place to hire engineers in the world.
Now, it may be that there's a massively important difference between skilled and unskilled labour. But it certainly does not seem to be the automatic case that allowing people to migrate results in terrible pressure on wage rates.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the anticipation of eventually stretched sinew pain.
Not really. There's an awful lot of hyberbole around it.
When you get down to the core figures there's little to choose between us, France and Germany.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
I am not sure why you think anybody should accept that it was an error of judgement. Brexit was a binary in/out referendum, and people voted for both options for manifold reasons. Those who voted are not responsible for subsequent political activity (for the most part that has been conducted by people who opposed Brexit), which is actually what you're complaining about.
"for the most part conducted by people who opposed Brexit"
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
Trading blocs don’t need Presidents and parliaments. They don’t desire an Army. Many at the heart of the EU project really do want a nation of Europe.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland is more Europhilic than England, and you can make the case that this dates all the way back to the Middle Ages.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
Sorry, I don't agree. I think it was the right decision and I think Britain is doing fine.
I agree Britain needs a closer and more pragmatic relationship with the EU; but I don't agree that means Rejoin.
You shouldn't either since that would simply rekindle all the issues that led us here in the first place and would mean no progress of any kind. Or peace.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
We do, though, need to compare wage growth rates against other developed countries though. In theory, one would expect that places that were net exporters of labour would see wages decline because there are more workers there, while we would see a meaningful rise. HOWEVER, the picture is complicated by the fact that non-EU immigration has rise so that net migration remains broadly flat, so it may be that shutting off the EU tap makes Britain more attractive to other migrants.
On the labour market thing, I think that COVID provided a reset.
A lot of unadventurous people were forced out of their dead end jobs, where increasing living costs had been slowly squeezing them (especially housing). They found new jobs that were better paid and had better conditions.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.
But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.
Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland was more Eurosceptic than England in the 1975 referendum.
And it’s 48 years later and England is more Eurosceptic than Scotland. Or was until the 60-40 split was a fixture in rejoin polling. Things change.
That cannot be, we are regularly reminded various things are inevitable because factors clearly cannot change over time - Staying out of the EU, Rejoining, Irish unification, Scottish independence, Scotland remaining in the Union, a Labour majority, a Tory recovery, etc.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
I am not sure why you think anybody should accept that it was an error of judgement. Brexit was a binary in/out referendum, and people voted for both options for manifold reasons. Those who voted are not responsible for subsequent political activity (for the most part that has been conducted by people who opposed Brexit), which is actually what you're complaining about.
I am not complaining. I am pointing out what has been obvious to me for many years and is now obvious to most. Brexit was pointless. Those who voted for it are responsible. With rights (the right to vote) comes responsibility. Those that voted for the stupidity are responsible, even if they are less responsible, perhaps, than those like Johnson who did their best to persuade them to do so.
I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.
Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
Too right.
You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.
When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)
We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
We are and we aren't.
Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.
We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.
That's the problem.
you truly are cracked if you think that
How so?
We adopt "Not my King" from "Not my President", the trans wars virtually word for word, and BLM took about 72 hours to get from Minnesota to Manchester. Our religions of veganism, Wokery, and Year Zero anti-patriotism are also very similar.
All of this stuff leaves most Europeans completely cold. The only thing that's broadly similar is concern about climate change.
I'd say my cultural views are far more European than those of some of the UTOA Remainers.
Though the examples you give are in fact for the few not the many. "We" mostly don't adopt this stuff. We are as likely to watch Gardener's World and knit ourselves a Coronation mug as adopt veganism, Wokery and anti-patriotism.
True, but the "opinion formers" and "agenda setters" very much do.
Their Europhilia, such as it is, is a very introverted and English one based on demonstrating their cultural sophistication over the plebs and fundamental deep-seated embarrassment in actually being English.
The economics, either which way, really have nothing to do with it.
Scotland seems to me a lot more Europhilic than England. I'm not sure to what extent this alters your argument because honestly I don't even know what you're trying to say really. I think you're trying to set up Europhilia and patriotism as opposites but you must know that this isn't true. In fact it's quite a strong current in Scottish politics. The likes of Lesley Riddoch are emblematic here: she is often found tying Scottish nationalism into Europeanism, and that kind of approach has adherents at the highest level. The former FM was often found advocating that approach and making deliberate and sometimes controversial approaches to other figures -- cultural and political -- from EU countries. I'm not sure to what extent England is different, but until your most recent post, it was far from clear you were talking about England only.
Scotland is more Europhilic than England, and you can make the case that this dates all the way back to the Middle Ages.
Except, it decidedly wasn't in the 1960s and 1970s.
What it is actually interested in is building alliances to contain and check English power, whilst also realising it needs a piece of it at the same time.
It's like it's not even worth being a part of the elite anymore The Archbishop of Canterbury has been fined more than £500 and given three penalty points after he was caught speeding in London.
The Most Reverend Justin Welby was recorded driving at 25mph in a 20mph zone in his Volkswagen Golf last year.
The 67-year-old had been going along the Albert Embankment towards his official residence at Lambeth Palace.
He admitted the offence in writing and was sentenced at a private magistrates' court hearing.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
The inquiry videos on their YouTube channel are well-worth watching IMO.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. He said that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them.
Well, that's not how I read it. All other considerations apart, we now know not only that any arguments they put forward were false but that quite a number of people knew they were false at the time.
Moreover, it seems bizarre to complain that the defence were demanding unparalleled disclosure and bitch about Horizon 'bandwagons.' The reason unparalleled disclosure was required was because of a vast coverup, and the 'bandwagon' was in fact the truth. Which his firm went to great lengths to conceal.
Nothing will happen to the bastard of course, especially since I believe he's now retired. But that email should trash his reputation.
Yeah but you don't know what he knew at the time. He was a lawyer who was presumably taking instructions from the client to pursue the case. It is the participants from Fujitsu who are of more interest to me- did they know there was a major problem but let the prosecutions happen anyway?
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
Sorry, I don't agree. I think it was the right decision and I think Britain is doing fine.
I agree Britain needs a closer and more pragmatic relationship with the EU; but I don't agree that means Rejoin.
You shouldn't either since that would simply rekindle all the issues that led us here in the first place and would mean no progress of any kind. Or peace.
As you will see from a previous point I don't advocate rejoin. I am slightly ashamed to admit that it will cause me to titter if it happens though!
On Brexit, a lot of disruption was bound to occur, but I started to turn when even after May triggered A50, near a year later there was still talk about the Cabinet not being agreed on a way forward. So much time and they still hadn't even internally settled on something yet - when so divided on the course to take purely within the Brexit supporter side (never mind Remainers who, yes, would seek to disrupt further), it was clearly a very bad sign for making a success of things.
Even now the government apparently cannot agree things. I like discussion, but there are limits.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
So, you've moved off the racial arguments and now it's I'm a "lefty", who wants to "fuck over poor people"?
I don't know what kind of acute episode you're having. Have you skipped your tablets?
He does the night shift on Radio Broadmoor.
Do fuck off the point was precisely accurate....farooq wants to skew immigration to white christians from the eu. If I said that you would be shouting racist from the rooftops....you like fom and agree with that so you have a go at me.
I am quite happy with immigration of people who benefit the country and are net contributors on the other hand and dont care if they are brown, yellow, white, black, green with yellow spots. I object however to immigration that keeps the poor on minimum wage while raising rents and puts ever more pressure on public services while not providing enough tax to make up for it.
That is not racist it is rational
You're talking about green people with yellow spots, you don't get to play the "rational" card sorry.
I'm sorry this hasn't worked out for you, but as explained, the idea of free movement isn't about racial or religious characteristics, and I would really like you to stop and think about what you're saying. Do you think everybody on here who is reading this and who is from this country or an EU country, do you think they are all white Christians? Because you're argument, apart from being wrong on its own merits, is erasing all those other people.
Again, it's wrong because free movement isn't predicated on anything other than membership of a single market. We have the same thing within countries too: I am free to move from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall if I choose. That isn't racist against someone from Mozambique who has to apply for permission to live in Truro. Your argument invites the conclusion that every country is racist for having internal free movement and restricted immigration. That's a silly conclusion and so you should wind your accusations in.
Only one person lost the argument. Have a nice night
Well, let me turn this around.
No part of the United States has - over the last 40 years - seen greater amounts of immigration (both from inside the US and from around the world) as the Bay Area.
Yet it is hard to rationally conclude that has driven down the price of software engineers. Indeed, the Bay Area is - without a doubt - the most expensive place to hire engineers in the world.
Now, it may be that there's a massively important difference between skilled and unskilled labour. But it certainly does not seem to be the automatic case that allowing people to migrate results in terrible pressure on wage rates.
That is because there is a world wide shortage of educated, credentialed professionals. The rise of India and China have actually made this more acute - they are not producing enough such trained people to deal with *their own* increased demand for such skills.
You can't find enough software engineers to crash the pay rates, anywhere.
On the other hand, low to no-skilled people are available in large numbers.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I'm convinced that 90% of your opposition to Brexit is down to your contempt for its main advocates rather than the issue itself. If David Cameron had taken a different approach to his renegotiation and supported voting Leave to give him a stronger mandate in Brussels, that might well have been where you placed your cross.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
It has not benefitted anyone and has created a lot of damage. I know it is difficult to realise that a well held belief was wrong, but wrong it was. I said at the time that nothing good will come of the Leave vote. It is something that it gives me no pleasure to know that I was right on. I don't blame people for believing in it, because the whole thing was made to be so emotional, but I would really rather wish folk would accept that it was an error of judgement on a colossal scale, and then we can work to fix the damage.
Sorry, I don't agree. I think it was the right decision and I think Britain is doing fine.
I agree Britain needs a closer and more pragmatic relationship with the EU; but I don't agree that means Rejoin.
You shouldn't either since that would simply rekindle all the issues that led us here in the first place and would mean no progress of any kind. Or peace.
As you will see from a previous point I don't advocate rejoin. I am slightly ashamed to admit that it will cause me to titter if it happens though!
Life is full of strange instances and humorous moments, you'd be ill-advised not to take advantage of them, but, in seeking a permanent solution, the UK has always been half-in, half-out like my posts earlier explained.
Any political solution needs to recognise that one size does not fit all.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Nothing is 100% anything, we have a complex web with many inputs. However I think we can safely say a lot of jobs such as hospitality finally not being min wage as a maximum wage is a function of a reduced labour pool they can recruit from
We do, though, need to compare wage growth rates against other developed countries though. In theory, one would expect that places that were net exporters of labour would see wages decline because there are more workers there, while we would see a meaningful rise. HOWEVER, the picture is complicated by the fact that non-EU immigration has rise so that net migration remains broadly flat, so it may be that shutting off the EU tap makes Britain more attractive to other migrants.
That reminds me of conversations in Germany and Austria (back in 2017/9) where workers were coming from Poland / Hungary with the workers there being replaced by Ukrainian immigrants.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I'm convinced that 90% of your opposition to Brexit is down to your contempt for its main advocates rather than the issue itself. If David Cameron had taken a different approach to his renegotiation and supported voting Leave to give him a stronger mandate in Brussels, that might well have been where you placed your cross.
And, 90% of the issues around Brexit, are down to poor political leadership.
Rishi and Ursula VDL have shown what's possible with NI, where we had effective stalemate and dogma for 6 years before.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Your post is insulting and quite frankly delusional. How dare you suggest I would support the BNP ! The right wing press centred its anti immigration rhetoric towards EU nationals and that’s why I mentioned that . If they had centred it against non EU migration I would be just as angry . I’m pro immigration . As long as people are law abiding citizens I don’t care where they’re from .
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
Obviously, you HAVEN'T thought things through over the last 7 years...
No, I thought it through properly in the first place.
I'm sure you know that's not how thinking works.
As more facts become established, conclusions can change. The way this is playing out isn't the worst of Project Fear, but neither is it the best hopes of Brexit backers.
As David Davis said in 2012, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
What do you do when a plan doesn't go to plan?
The EU wasn’t the problem before Brexit, it just got blamed by Brexiteers for everything. The danger now is the fixation that rejoining will fix all the problems. That’s as unlikely as the first proposition. And beware any poll on rejoin that doesn’t probe the conditions of rejoining.
An excellent post.
Of course 'the conditions on leaving' also should have been put to the people. There were so many different types of leaving and it would have been nice to have voted upon an actual plan. Either the vote should have been taken after the negotiations or it be a two staged vote eg Stage 1 - Vote in principle, Stage 2 - Vote on what was negotiated.
Seeing we're back on our favourite topic. It's quite clear Brexit has failed and we are left only with recriminations. Nevertheless as we're not going to rejoin any time soon, it's a failure we will have to deal with.
A statement issued on behalf of The Stand. Our solicitor's correspondence with Joanna Cherry's legal team can be found here: tinyurl.com/2mkt2w4d
The comedy club which cancelled a Fringe show by SNP MP Joanna Cherry has reinstated the event.
The Stand had cancelled the show after staff said they were not comfortable with her views on transgender issues.
But the venue has now said the decision was "unfair and constituted unlawful discrimination against Ms Cherry".
Ms Cherry said it was a "very welcome move by The Stand" and confirmed she will take part in August's event as originally planned.
The Stand said it had taken legal advice and now accepted it had got its original decision wrong.
In a statement, the club said it "publicly and unreservedly apologise to Ms Cherry".
It added: "We have always been clear that we oppose all forms of discrimination and recognise the rights of individuals to air views with which we may disagree. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575748
Translation: We figured upsetting her was better than upsetting our staff, and that in most instances we'd get away with this sort of thing. We absolutely support discrimination of people with her views because we are the good guys, and would have continued to do so, but we were legally threatened so had to back down.
You may gather I am skeptical they genuinely thought there was no legal issue to begin with.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I'm convinced that 90% of your opposition to Brexit is down to your contempt for its main advocates rather than the issue itself. If David Cameron had taken a different approach to his renegotiation and supported voting Leave to give him a stronger mandate in Brussels, that might well have been where you placed your cross.
No, I was principally in favour of remain for pragmatic reasons. Leaving was pointless and without benefit to the average citizen (subject?). I am very much in the William Hague camp - a moderate Eurosceptic who was not in favour of leaving. It would not have mattered what Cameron thought, that would have been my position.
Where you may have a point is that a lot of the people who advocated Leave were/are people whom I have absolute contempt for; Farage and Johnson to name but two. One a fascist and the other a self serving narcissist. They made my opposition to Brexit even easier.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
And yet the single currency exists...
...and where Germany can pretty much block what it doesn't want...
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
Trading blocs don’t need Presidents and parliaments. They don’t desire an Army. Many at the heart of the EU project really do want a nation of Europe.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
Gareth Jenkins of Fujitsu is one of two people, I believe, currently being investigated for perjury by the police.
Fujitsu have recently admitted that their staff had live and unauditable information access to the Horizon system in post office branches in 2004. This was before some of the criminal cases and before the Bates v Post Office case whIch established the problems with Horizon. So either Fujitsu were lying to the court in that case or the Post Office was.
Also, before my plane taking off cuts my signal, if net migration really is gonna get close to 1m in the next data release, that is going to explode all over UK politics
It is utterly unprecedented in the history of the UK. It cannot be ignored. People will react
If you are the Tory spin team, and you know this little awkward data release is coming, you obviously got something planned to chuck on the table as a distraction, what do we think it will be?
Maybe a plane takes off for Rwanda the same day? “Look, despite the opposition attempts to stop us, we are dealing with this migration invasion of our country.” If it’s loaded up and don’t take off, “Look, we are doing our best to deal with this migration invasion of our country, for years now we have been thwarted by the opposition, that’s who clearly to blame.”
You are going to say the illegal channel invasion of migrants is mere tens of thousands, these migration figures are hundreds of thousands. But ask yourself, how many voters you think get such a subtler version of it as that, when the government push their version supported by all their press?
If the release of this data set is spun in the way I describe here, the Tories can actually get a significant poll boost from it.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
Yeah, but that's democracy for you. Everyone's vote counts the same, whether intellectual gadfly or deep thinker, or indeed non-thinker.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the anticipation of eventually stretched sinew pain.
Not really. There's an awful lot of hyberbole around it.
When you get down to the core figures there's little to choose between us, France and Germany.
OK, perhaps that was a Project Fear interpretation.
But, I'm in a lyrical analogy mood tonight.
The benefits of the EU were a more effective analgesia for the irritations of the EU, than the benefits of Brexit will ever be for Brexit's irritations.
But you had to scratch that itch incessantly, and even when it cleared you scratched your more delicate places with the bug still underneath your fingernails.
On the EU, I wonder if the core Eurozone integrating more tightly politically may ironically make it easier to join. At that point there will likely be recognition of core and non-core EU members, and we would join in the understanding of being part of the non-core.
But more realistically we'll sign follow the Swiss in signing a range of deals over time that align us more closely and reduce trade barriers without fully embracing the single market.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
Snore.
Strange response and really dont give a shit if you try to ignore something true. You also try to deny minimum wage workers suddenly finding they can get better wages now the infinite labour pool caused by eu unemployment has ended. Your opinion is worth less than a lib dem pledge to abolish tuition fees
Given the similar changes in labour market structures in other countries, the increase in wages in lower end jobs are almost certainly not 100% BREXIT.
Covid has really muddied the picture, because everywhere saw very sharp rises in wages as economies reopened and firms faced labour shortages.
The other thing is the demographic change. Hospitality etc is very dependent on a young workforce. Fewer youngsters, fewer workers in those sectors.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
They boasted about thwarting disclosure to conceal relevant evidence about Horizon.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
That isn't how I read the email. Isn't he saying that they had disclosure requests but were then able to rebut the arguments put forward by the defence, presumably in relation to them?
That’s right - he’s just boasting that he did a great job. Just unfortunately it turned out to be in a rotten cause
On the EU, I wonder if the core Eurozone integrating more tightly politically may ironically make it easier to join. At that point there will likely be recognition of core and non-core EU members, and we would join in the understanding of being part of the non-core.
But more realistically we'll sign follow the Swiss in signing a range of deals over time that align us more closely and reduce trade barriers without fully embracing the single market.
The chance of that (an inner and an outer grouping) happening is long past. The Euro has ensured it is not practical because it forces all its members to be part of he inner core. I agree that the Swiss model is the most likely now although I would prefer the EFTA/EEA route.
A statement issued on behalf of The Stand. Our solicitor's correspondence with Joanna Cherry's legal team can be found here: tinyurl.com/2mkt2w4d
The comedy club which cancelled a Fringe show by SNP MP Joanna Cherry has reinstated the event.
The Stand had cancelled the show after staff said they were not comfortable with her views on transgender issues.
But the venue has now said the decision was "unfair and constituted unlawful discrimination against Ms Cherry".
Ms Cherry said it was a "very welcome move by The Stand" and confirmed she will take part in August's event as originally planned.
The Stand said it had taken legal advice and now accepted it had got its original decision wrong.
In a statement, the club said it "publicly and unreservedly apologise to Ms Cherry".
It added: "We have always been clear that we oppose all forms of discrimination and recognise the rights of individuals to air views with which we may disagree. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575748
Translation: We figured upsetting her was better than upsetting our staff, and that in most instances we'd get away with this sort of thing. We absolutely support discrimination of people with her views because we are the good guys, and would have continued to do so, but we were legally threatened so had to back down.
You may gather I am skeptical they genuinely thought there was no legal issue to begin with.
There have been at least 6 legal cases, some of them in Scotland, which were won against service providers which unlawfully discriminated in breach of the Equality Act. So it's not even as if they don't know what the law is or that, if challenged, they would not get away with it. They just think that the law should not apply to them.
And that is why these cases keep on being brought. Because people refuse to accept that an Act which has been in force for 13 years should be enforced and should apply to everyone and not just those you agree with or people you approve of.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
Note the word "glorified" Richard. The vast majority of the laws are trading regulations for the smooth running of trade, most of which UK firms will continue to adhere to as well you know. The only people who are gaga are those like the ERG who try and paint the EU as something that it isn't, wasn't and will never be.
Seeing we're back on our favourite topic. It's quite clear Brexit has failed and we are left only with recriminations. Nevertheless as we're not going to rejoin any time soon, it's a failure we will have to deal with.
Good night.
No one expects Rejoin soon, but by the GE after next it may well feature. It wouldn't surprise me if the Conservatives reverted to their policy ot the half century to 2016 and became pro-EU to regain their previous heartlands in SE England. It would be a daring outflanking of Labour.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
Gareth Jenkins of Fujitsu is one of two people, I believe, currently being investigated for perjury by the police.
Fujitsu have recently admitted that their staff had live and unauditable information access to the Horizon system in post office branches in 2004. This was before some of the criminal cases and before the Bates v Post Office case whIch established the problems with Horizon. So either Fujitsu were lying to the court in that case or the Post Office was.
There was an article in The Times this morning of a veteran Met police officer giving advice to a new starter of (1) "Trust No-one" and (2) "Cover your arse"
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze) Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze) Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
WHat does 'mandate work from home' mean?. Even though I think WFH is brilliant and certainly the future, madating it is as daft as banning it.
Let us hope the disclosure of that email makes other lawyers think twice before (a) conspiring to pervert the course of justice and (b) boasting about it.
Appropriate that he's in the *Criminal* law division.
Not sure about the context here. But surely it is only perverting the course of justice if they made false statements to the court, do we know this ?
Gareth Jenkins of Fujitsu is one of two people, I believe, currently being investigated for perjury by the police.
Fujitsu have recently admitted that their staff had live and unauditable information access to the Horizon system in post office branches in 2004. This was before some of the criminal cases and before the Bates v Post Office case whIch established the problems with Horizon. So either Fujitsu were lying to the court in that case or the Post Office was.
Interesting. But I think an area where it is best to avoid accusations against individuals.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Only if they deserve it.
None of them deserved being insulted.
I give as good as I get. If I am rude it's when the arguments are stupid on top where I have little respect for them.
It's entirely open for people to debate the issues alone, and to make intelligent points on top, and plenty who vehemently disagree with me manage to do so, who I also respect.
I disagree. Just my opinion but I think you give far worse than you get. We all get into heated debates. I have had several that have gone too far, but you seem to get angry all the time and far too quickly or insult people unnecessarily. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they are stupid and need insulting and what you think is a stupid argument is not seen to be by many others. Tonight seemed very unpleasant. I would have debated the points with you, but decided against because I didn't want one of those types of discussions which is a shame.
A statement issued on behalf of The Stand. Our solicitor's correspondence with Joanna Cherry's legal team can be found here: tinyurl.com/2mkt2w4d
The comedy club which cancelled a Fringe show by SNP MP Joanna Cherry has reinstated the event.
The Stand had cancelled the show after staff said they were not comfortable with her views on transgender issues.
But the venue has now said the decision was "unfair and constituted unlawful discrimination against Ms Cherry".
Ms Cherry said it was a "very welcome move by The Stand" and confirmed she will take part in August's event as originally planned.
The Stand said it had taken legal advice and now accepted it had got its original decision wrong.
In a statement, the club said it "publicly and unreservedly apologise to Ms Cherry".
It added: "We have always been clear that we oppose all forms of discrimination and recognise the rights of individuals to air views with which we may disagree. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575748
Translation: We figured upsetting her was better than upsetting our staff, and that in most instances we'd get away with this sort of thing. We absolutely support discrimination of people with her views because we are the good guys, and would have continued to do so, but we were legally threatened so had to back down.
You may gather I am skeptical they genuinely thought there was no legal issue to begin with.
There have been at least 6 legal cases, some of them in Scotland, which were won against service providers which unlawfully discriminated in breach of the Equality Act. So it's not even as if they don't know what the law is or that, if challenged, they would not get away with it. They just think that the law should not apply to them.
And that is why these cases keep on being brought. Because people refuse to accept that an Act which has been in force for 13 years should be enforced and should apply to everyone and not just those you agree with or people you approve of.
Wait wait wait...the Equality Act does not apply only to the things I like and not the things I don't like?! Snowflakes of the world on left and right (or both sides, since I don't know that left or right really work) will be most upset.
(Actually the last training I had on the Equality Act was mostly relatively measured, though the person delivering it somewhat unsuccessfully spent some time trying to reassure people they should not worry about getting into trouble for innocent errors)
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze) Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
I WFH, and I don't get extra sex.
This is genuinely one thing where I hope SKS fans do explain.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
I suppose peoples views as to whether that’s a good or bad thing vary. For me the non trade aspects were of more importance . Freedom of movement is by far the biggest positive for me.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Only if they deserve it.
None of them deserved being insulted.
I give as good as I get. If I am rude it's when the arguments are stupid on top where I have little respect for them.
It's entirely open for people to debate the issues alone, and to make intelligent points on top, and plenty who vehemently disagree with me manage to do so, who I also respect.
I disagree. Just my opinion but I think you give far worse than you get. We all get into heated debates. I have had several that have gone too far, but you seem to get angry all the time and far too quickly or insult people unnecessarily. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they are stupid and need insulting and what you think is a stupid argument is not seen to be by many others. Tonight seemed very unpleasant. I would have debated the points with you, but decided against because I didn't want one of those types of discussions which is a shame.
To be fair to CR he has been very measured and respectful in his responses to me this evening. It has made for a very civilised exchange, and I respect him and his view all the more for it.
The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .
Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!
Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .
Not a single Leave promise has been met.
Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?
You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.
As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .
Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
Free movement is a pillar of the single market. The aim is prosperity through economic integration, and economic integration isn't fully viable without free movement because we don't live in fucking feudal times any more. It's nothing at all to do with skin colour or religion, and if you're airbrushing the existence of non-white and non-Christian people out of European identity, then the racist is you.
Free movement is about fucking over the poor people on minimum wage for the benefit of business who like their infinite labour pool. But then you are a lefty so you like to keep people poor so you can pretend you are on their side
I always have a slight problem with that logic. Because if it is true, then allowing people from poorer parts of the UK to work in London, is fucking over the people who reside in London by pushing down their wages.
Unless, we're saying that although allowing Scousers to work in London is net negative to Londoners, it's worth it because we're all British?
Scousers are british, we have a british governement. The point of a governement is to do the best for the people they represent. I suspect allowing scousers being allowed to move to london to take up jobs is a lot less impactful that letting all of europe to move to london to take up jobs when it comes to lifting them out of minimum wage
But, do you think allowing Scousers to work in London is generally good for the economic wealth of the country? Or bad?
Because "oh, there are more Europeans than Scousers" is a bit of a cop out.
On the other hand, it's OK to play the nationality card, obviously. There's nothing wrong with saying "we're looking to optimize the wealth of al Brits, rather than the wealth of all Europeans".
UK citizens are what the governement are meant to look after. Are there issues when they change regions sure....but the point is they are uk citizens and should be looked after. This is the whole point the uk governement is meant to do the best for those that live in the uk.
I don't have a problem with immigration as long as the following is followed. They should be net contributors and services such as doctors, dentists,housing, schools are all expanded to meet the extra demand. As long as that occurs I dont think it matters if we have 100k, 1million or 10 million.
Fom however removed our ability to limit it to those who are net contributors
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze) Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
WHat does 'mandate work from home' mean?. Even though I think WFH is brilliant and certainly the future, mandating it is as daft as banning it.
Looks like something about Labour proposing to give people a legal right to work from home, but I cannot make out anythig further about what such a 'right' would entail.
Sounds pretty dumb to me. A lot of people like working from home, or working flexibly in hybrid fashion, but if an employer wants all its employees to work from the office I don't see the problem - if they cannot get people to work for them under such an arrangement they'd change their tune sharpish.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
Note the word "glorified" Richard. The vast majority of the laws are trading regulations for the smooth running of trade, most of which UK firms will continue to adhere to as well you know. The only people who are gaga are those like the ERG who try and paint the EU as something that it isn't, wasn't and will never be.
This is simply unture. The majority of laws inside the EU are not trading regulations - not by a million miles. Only about 21% of EU law actually relates to trade either directly or indirectly. That is according to the EEA agreement and also includes Agricultural law even in areas not directly related to trade. So the amount of EU law directly related to trade is less than that.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You have managed to tell half of PB individually how stupid they are tonight together with a collection of their other personal flaws.
Only if they deserve it.
None of them deserved being insulted.
I give as good as I get. If I am rude it's when the arguments are stupid on top where I have little respect for them.
It's entirely open for people to debate the issues alone, and to make intelligent points on top, and plenty who vehemently disagree with me manage to do so, who I also respect.
I disagree. Just my opinion but I think you give far worse than you get. We all get into heated debates. I have had several that have gone too far, but you seem to get angry all the time and far too quickly or insult people unnecessarily. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they are stupid and need insulting and what you think is a stupid argument is not seen to be by many others. Tonight seemed very unpleasant. I would have debated the points with you, but decided against because I didn't want one of those types of discussions which is a shame.
Sorry, I disagree. Many of the posts here these days are repetitive, banal, tedious, supercilious and silly - and they bore me silly. And there are several repeat offenders who think they're far smarter than they actually are - it's embarrassing.
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze) Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
WHat does 'mandate work from home' mean?. Even though I think WFH is brilliant and certainly the future, madating it is as daft as banning it.
Agree, it's a culture war thing - the opposite of the (retired) Daily Mail readers insisting everyone "get back to work".
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
I suppose peoples views as to whether that’s a good or bad thing vary. For me the non trade aspects were of more importance . Freedom of movement is by far the biggest positive for me.
Yep I was very much not arguing about the rights and wrongs. Simply challenging the idea that it is only a glorified trading block. Even though I disagree with them I have a lot of time for those Europhiles who argue stroingly for a federal Europe - certainly compared to those Europhiles who pretend it has never been on the agenda.
Oh and I agree with you about freedom of movement. But I see the recent immigration figures as a vindication of my arguments about Brexit. I am very pleased that we are getting more immigrants than ever now we are outside the EU.
Buyer's remorse. I would vote Rejoin in a heartbeat.
That just shows you're impulsive and don't think things through.
Er, I've had SEVEN years to think it through!
And, you were hysterical about it at the time, as you are about Rejoin and Starmer now, and also your republicanism: where you keep posting the same (decidedly weak) points endlessly, again and again.
Conclusion: you don't think things through.
You clearly didn't . Obviously not entirely stupid but you believed in Brexit. The biggest crock of shit that has ever been inflicted on a relatively sophisticated electorate. And, of course, it wasn't in any way influenced by Russian social media manipulation. Well, according to the now very believable "Russian Report" lol.
I believed in terminating our full membership of the European Union and negotiating a new one, yes. It wasn't working as a political model for us and never would have.
And I absolutely stand by that as the right decision.
You keep trying to convince yourself old chap. It was the dumbest decision this country has taken in a century at least. EU membership was not perfect, but it was not a disaster either. The benefits outweighed the disbenefits. Leaving it has not benefited one ordinary person one iota. It was pointless. Stupid. However we now have to live with that idiocy and move on. Rejoin is not an option IMHO.
I respectfully disagree: the flexibility required to accommodate a permanent settlement with the UK inside the EU wasn't there, together with a track record of creeping federalisation, so the only honest position was to Leave if you no longer had confidence in the organisation.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system, but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Creeping is the right word for the federalism. Or a ratchet that only turns once a decade.
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the distant ratchet pull.
The threat (if threat it ever was) of EU federalism is a straw man . It is only believed in by arch-federalists and arch-Europhobes. The EU, for all its faults, is a system built on compromise. That compromise system would never have allowed proper federalism with us or without us. The EU will continue to be a glorified trading block of sovereign nations for centuries. The hilarious thing is that it is simply too bureaucratic to force through federalism.
There is no other trading block in the world - glorified or otherwise - that has the ability to impose laws unrelated to trade on its members.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
Note the word "glorified" Richard. The vast majority of the laws are trading regulations for the smooth running of trade, most of which UK firms will continue to adhere to as well you know. The only people who are gaga are those like the ERG who try and paint the EU as something that it isn't, wasn't and will never be.
This is simply unture. The majority of laws inside the EU are not trading regulations - not by a million miles. Only about 21% of EU law actually relates to trade either directly or indirectly. That is according to the EEA agreement and also includes Agricultural law even in areas not directly related to trade. So the amount of EU law directly related to trade is less than that.
Most is to do with alignment, which is essentially about trade directly or indirectly. There have been social aspects, which we once had an opt out on, but our democratically elected government decided to sign up. The hysteria over EU law is, well, just hysteria. The fact that we have chosen to not get rid of the laws show that they were not really detrimental to the average UK citizen. Brexit was pointless
Comments
In good news, I’ve just brought home my first dog
Or was until the 60-40 split was a fixture in rejoin polling.
Things change.
Sounds like PTCOJ to me.
Of course, it would have been better to have negotiated this inside, and then gently moved to it, or an outer-tier membership system,
but that wasn't on the table - so the break it was.
Congrats. I hope it brings you both joy.
She is a beautiful - and sleepy - black lab
Moreover, it seems bizarre to complain that the defence were demanding unparalleled disclosure and bitch about Horizon 'bandwagons.' The reason unparalleled disclosure was required was because of a vast coverup, and the 'bandwagon' was in fact the truth. Which his firm went to great lengths to conceal.
Nothing will happen to the bastard of course, especially since I believe he's now retired. But that email should trash his reputation.
Because "oh, there are more Europeans than Scousers" is a bit of a cop out.
On the other hand, it's OK to play the nationality card, obviously. There's nothing wrong with saying "we're looking to optimize the wealth of al Brits, rather than the wealth of all Europeans".
Even if you thought the end game was bad, you ran from a large slug into moving traffic, you chopped off your feet to avoid the anticipation of eventually stretched sinew pain.
As more facts become established, conclusions can change. The way this is playing out isn't the worst of Project Fear, but neither is it the best hopes of Brexit backers.
As David Davis said in 2012, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
What do you do when a plan doesn't go to plan?
It's entirely open for people to debate the issues alone, and to make intelligent points on top, and plenty who vehemently disagree with me manage to do so, who I also respect.
And beware any poll on rejoin that doesn’t probe the conditions of rejoining.
No part of the United States has - over the last 40 years - seen greater amounts of immigration (both from inside the US and from around the world) as the Bay Area.
Yet it is hard to rationally conclude that has driven down the price of software engineers. Indeed, the Bay Area is - without a doubt - the most expensive place to hire engineers in the world.
Now, it may be that there's a massively important difference between skilled and unskilled labour. But it certainly does not seem to be the automatic case that allowing people to migrate results in terrible pressure on wage rates.
When you get down to the core figures there's little to choose between us, France and Germany.
cumm on, now.
Sigh
I agree Britain needs a closer and more pragmatic relationship with the EU; but I don't agree that means Rejoin.
You shouldn't either since that would simply rekindle all the issues that led us here in the first place and would mean no progress of any kind. Or peace.
Dogs D'Amour must be one of the best names ever for a rock band.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dogs_D'Amour
A lot of unadventurous people were forced out of their dead end jobs, where increasing living costs had been slowly squeezing them (especially housing). They found new jobs that were better paid and had better conditions.
What it is actually interested in is building alliances to contain and check English power, whilst also realising it needs a piece of it at the same time.
Wor Lass has also been invited for another Covid jab, on medical grounds.
The Durham flag has sadly been adopted by far right twats in the county.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has been fined more than £500 and given three penalty points after he was caught speeding in London.
The Most Reverend Justin Welby was recorded driving at 25mph in a 20mph zone in his Volkswagen Golf last year.
The 67-year-old had been going along the Albert Embankment towards his official residence at Lambeth Palace.
He admitted the offence in writing and was sentenced at a private magistrates' court hearing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65572257
Genuinely surprised he drives himself.
Even now the government apparently cannot agree things. I like discussion, but there are limits.
You can't find enough software engineers to crash the pay rates, anywhere.
On the other hand, low to no-skilled people are available in large numbers.
Any political solution needs to recognise that one size does not fit all.
Rishi and Ursula VDL have shown what's possible with NI, where we had effective stalemate and dogma for 6 years before.
Of course 'the conditions on leaving' also should have been put to the people. There were so many different types of leaving and it would have been nice to have voted upon an actual plan. Either the vote should have been taken after the negotiations or it be a two staged vote eg Stage 1 - Vote in principle, Stage 2 - Vote on what was negotiated.
Good night.
The comedy club which cancelled a Fringe show by SNP MP Joanna Cherry has reinstated the event.
The Stand had cancelled the show after staff said they were not comfortable with her views on transgender issues.
But the venue has now said the decision was "unfair and constituted unlawful discrimination against Ms Cherry".
Ms Cherry said it was a "very welcome move by The Stand" and confirmed she will take part in August's event as originally planned.
The Stand said it had taken legal advice and now accepted it had got its original decision wrong.
In a statement, the club said it "publicly and unreservedly apologise to Ms Cherry".
It added: "We have always been clear that we oppose all forms of discrimination and recognise the rights of individuals to air views with which we may disagree.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575748
Translation: We figured upsetting her was better than upsetting our staff, and that in most instances we'd get away with this sort of thing. We absolutely support discrimination of people with her views because we are the good guys, and would have continued to do so, but we were legally threatened so had to back down.
You may gather I am skeptical they genuinely thought there was no legal issue to begin with.
Where you may have a point is that a lot of the people who advocated Leave were/are people whom I have absolute contempt for; Farage and Johnson to name but two. One a fascist and the other a self serving narcissist. They made my opposition to Brexit even easier.
Fujitsu have recently admitted that their staff had live and unauditable information access to the Horizon system in post office branches in 2004. This was before some of the criminal cases and before the Bates v Post Office case whIch established the problems with Horizon. So either Fujitsu were lying to the court in that case or the Post Office was.
Maybe a plane takes off for Rwanda the same day? “Look, despite the opposition attempts to stop us, we are dealing with this migration invasion of our country.” If it’s loaded up and don’t take off, “Look, we are doing our best to deal with this migration invasion of our country, for years now we have been thwarted by the opposition, that’s who clearly to blame.”
You are going to say the illegal channel invasion of migrants is mere tens of thousands, these migration figures are hundreds of thousands. But ask yourself, how many voters you think get such a subtler version of it as that, when the government push their version supported by all their press?
If the release of this data set is spun in the way I describe here, the Tories can actually get a significant poll boost from it.
But, I'm in a lyrical analogy mood tonight.
The benefits of the EU were a more effective analgesia for the irritations of the EU, than the benefits of Brexit will ever be for Brexit's irritations.
But you had to scratch that itch incessantly, and even when it cleared you scratched your more delicate places with the bug still underneath your fingernails.
Ignoring some of their probable views for a moment I almost admire the passion of these kind of campaigners.
But more realistically we'll sign follow the Swiss in signing a range of deals over time that align us more closely and reduce trade barriers without fully embracing the single market.
There is no other trading block in the world that has the full panolply of governmental institutions which rule their members.
The idea that the EU is just a trading bloc is completely gaga.
And that is why these cases keep on being brought. Because people refuse to accept that an Act which has been in force for 13 years should be enforced and should apply to everyone and not just those you agree with or people you approve of.
Explains a lot.
It's a wonder it keeps coming up.
Sigh.
Starmer calls himself a Conservative - BJO please explain
Starmer will mandate WFH if he gets in (I don’t mind, I get more sex out of that little wheeze)
Dyson attacks Sunak’s focus on science
Modi wants the British Crown Jewels back in India.
Couple of questions. Is South Africa arming Putin? And what’s the Australian PwC crisis - is the Labor government about to fall?
(Actually the last training I had on the Equality Act was mostly relatively measured, though the person delivering it somewhat unsuccessfully spent some time trying to reassure people they should not worry about getting into trouble for innocent errors)
This is genuinely one thing where I hope SKS fans do explain.
I don't have a problem with immigration as long as the following is followed. They should be net contributors and services such as doctors, dentists,housing, schools are all expanded to meet the extra demand. As long as that occurs I dont think it matters if we have 100k, 1million or 10 million.
Fom however removed our ability to limit it to those who are net contributors
Sounds pretty dumb to me. A lot of people like working from home, or working flexibly in hybrid fashion, but if an employer wants all its employees to work from the office I don't see the problem - if they cannot get people to work for them under such an arrangement they'd change their tune sharpish.
I am polite and considerate to those I respect.
The solution is simple: earn my respect.
Oh and I agree with you about freedom of movement. But I see the recent immigration figures as a vindication of my arguments about Brexit. I am very pleased that we are getting more immigrants than ever now we are outside the EU.