Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

Punters rate Trump as a 23.8% chance to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

123578

Comments

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,218
    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    A crucial element could be who wins the next French presidential election.
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Andy_JS said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    A crucial element could be who wins the next French presidential election.
    Andy I find myself agreeing with most of your posts, this is interesting as I am sure we differ politically.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,057
    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,698
    edited May 2023
    On the soon to rise nation of Kent, to join its Celtic brothers in Wales and Cornwall, and throw off the shackles of its anglo-saxon-globalist- metropolitan liberal oppressors, etc, apparently it's also something to do with very early Celtic migrations to the UK. Ironically for the nationalists in Dover, it seems to be where the Celtic immigrants first arrived from Continental Europe, before this could be stopped by new legislation :

    "Some of the earliest genetic outliers have been found in Kent, suggesting that the south-east may have been a focus for movement into Britain. This resonates with previously published isotope evidence from archaeological sites like Cliffs End Farm on the Isle of Thanet peninsula, where some individuals were shown to have spent their childhoods in continental Europe.

    Maybe they came from the then Celtic South-Eastern Europe, which was actually the Balkans, and then got stuck in the Weald, but just with Saxon names.

    The new DNA evidence may also shed light on the long-standing question of when early Celtic languages arrived in Britain."

    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/ancient-dna-bronze-age-britain.html
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561
    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    We will likely end up with something Swiss-like, I think.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,392
    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,635
    "The Russian Ministry of Defense has announced that the Russian Army has pulled back from the northern outskirts of Bakhmut to “more advantageous positions by the Berkhivka Reservoir.”

    This means a retreat of several kilometers!"

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1656985383391973376
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,388
    Foxy said:

    I remember reading somewhere that there was a concentration of celtic-type DNA down in Kent way, for some reason.

    Arise, ancient Kentish ! From my point of view, more disappointingly, however, it's also very heavily Tory, though, or at least it has been up to now.

    There is no Kent, only occupied Wales.
    Celts = Johnny-come-latelies.

    Things have been going downhill in this neck of the woods since the Beaker People turned up, IMHO.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,230
    So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.

    And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.

    As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988
    Dialup said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    We will likely end up with something Swiss-like, I think.
    The way things are carrying on, it may be possible to sell FOM as delivering LESS immigration.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,230
    Roger said:

    Dialup said:

    2/ The Prime Minister’s approval rating is hanging like a puppet on a string this week as his net approval rating plunged by 8 points to -13:

    👍 Approve: 28% (-6)
    👎 Disapprove: 42% (+3)
    🤷 Neither: 30% (+2)

    https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1657034387240677377

    Something has happened to Rishi Sunak.

    Mainly the thing that happens to all Prime Ministers. In the end, the job beats them all, because it's fundamentally impossible. The only question is how long it takes and what good they can do in the meantime.
    This is a rotten government. When everything else has failed and all you're left with is beating up unfortunates in boats you deserve every bit of opprobrium you get.

    This government is vile and Sunak hasn't changed that one bit.
    Pretty much word for word what my brother wrote to me this morning, a person who used to vote Conservative.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,930
    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    It's a little too lacking in colour compared to the others. But it is simple to identify, it's symbolism of the island and waves is obvious the instant it is seen - a bit more effort than 'eh, just use the seal'.

    Which, again, is weird, since americans care more about their states by and large than even the denizens of the Isle of Wight I would guess.
    British people used to care about their counties. But 50 years of titting about with county council boundaries have muddied the water beyond people's ability to care.
    And I can see the argument for rational local government. But I can also see the argument for local government reflecting geography that people care about and identify with.
    And I also wish I could use words like "Cheshire" and it be clear and unambiguous exactly where I mean.
    Problem being that counties do not align with geogrpahy that people care about and identify with. Wiltshire is a case in point - by and large it's a donut, with a series of towns on the edge and emptiness in the middle, and the cluster of towns close together in the West look more to Bath than they would to the sole city, Salisbury.
    But US states are the same.
    There is no obvious reason why people's emotional loyalty should reflect economic geography.
    Though isn't the problem that English counties (if you're being purist about them) have too many anomalies where the borders run through the middle of places? So it's clearly dumb to separate Christchurch (historically Hampshire) from Bournemouth and Poole (Dorset). Hence the Heathite Counties that nobody really liked. And Greater London, which some people moan about as a concept to this day. Especially in Romford.

    It's where the "counties are like US states" analogy breaks down; there are places where the lived geography crosses state lines, but it's less of an issue. Partly because the USA is bigger and emptier, but also becuase it was mapped at a time that people could build big bridges. So the two sides of a river were usually seen as the same place.

    On the other hand, if we could agree that the elected politician in charge of a country or similar was called a Count, I'd be cool with that.
    38 counties, each headed by a sheriff.
    16 metros, each headed by a mayor.

    Align the police, health, and other boundaries to fit.

    Fund local government properly.
    But take social care provision, which has crowded out truly local activities, into central government’s responsibility.

    Next.
    I'd be happy to compromise on sheriff (though ambitous politicians in the East Midlands might have views on that title, and elected Counts would be way cooler.)

    And if we're making counties the main unit, we probably need something relatably small beneath them- towns or urban parishes, even if all they do is flags, flower displays, lunch clubs for senior citizens and activities for children.

    But the key thing- local government needs discretion over taxing and spending. Social care is only the biggest of the herd of elephants in the room there. At the moment, councils are basically told how much tax they can raise, and they have little control over the amount they have to spend. In which case, what's the blooming point?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,015
    Heathener said:

    Roger said:

    Dialup said:

    2/ The Prime Minister’s approval rating is hanging like a puppet on a string this week as his net approval rating plunged by 8 points to -13:

    👍 Approve: 28% (-6)
    👎 Disapprove: 42% (+3)
    🤷 Neither: 30% (+2)

    https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1657034387240677377

    Something has happened to Rishi Sunak.

    Mainly the thing that happens to all Prime Ministers. In the end, the job beats them all, because it's fundamentally impossible. The only question is how long it takes and what good they can do in the meantime.
    This is a rotten government. When everything else has failed and all you're left with is beating up unfortunates in boats you deserve every bit of opprobrium you get.

    This government is vile and Sunak hasn't changed that one bit.
    Pretty much word for word what my brother wrote to me this morning, a person who used to vote Conservative.
    I don’t think he is quite the same as Rogerdamus in that respect.
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561
    Why is Roger called Rogerdamus?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,003
    edited May 2023
    Dialup said:

    Why is Roger called Rogerdamus?

    Because his predictions are as accurate as Nostradamus. See also Leondamus.

    That's Nostradamus from Hartlepool, not the original.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,897

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    It's a little too lacking in colour compared to the others. But it is simple to identify, it's symbolism of the island and waves is obvious the instant it is seen - a bit more effort than 'eh, just use the seal'.

    Which, again, is weird, since americans care more about their states by and large than even the denizens of the Isle of Wight I would guess.
    British people used to care about their counties. But 50 years of titting about with county council boundaries have muddied the water beyond people's ability to care.
    And I can see the argument for rational local government. But I can also see the argument for local government reflecting geography that people care about and identify with.
    And I also wish I could use words like "Cheshire" and it be clear and unambiguous exactly where I mean.
    Problem being that counties do not align with geogrpahy that people care about and identify with. Wiltshire is a case in point - by and large it's a donut, with a series of towns on the edge and emptiness in the middle, and the cluster of towns close together in the West look more to Bath than they would to the sole city, Salisbury.
    But US states are the same.
    There is no obvious reason why people's emotional loyalty should reflect economic geography.
    Though isn't the problem that English counties (if you're being purist about them) have too many anomalies where the borders run through the middle of places? So it's clearly dumb to separate Christchurch (historically Hampshire) from Bournemouth and Poole (Dorset). Hence the Heathite Counties that nobody really liked. And Greater London, which some people moan about as a concept to this day. Especially in Romford.

    It's where the "counties are like US states" analogy breaks down; there are places where the lived geography crosses state lines, but it's less of an issue. Partly because the USA is bigger and emptier, but also becuase it was mapped at a time that people could build big bridges. So the two sides of a river were usually seen as the same place.

    On the other hand, if we could agree that the elected politician in charge of a country or similar was called a Count, I'd be cool with that.
    Well yes, but the same thing happens in US States. Look at Missouri. Two metropolitan areas: St. Louis (though East St. Louis is in Illinois) and Kansas City (though part of that metropolitan area is across the river in Kansas).
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    It's a little too lacking in colour compared to the others. But it is simple to identify, it's symbolism of the island and waves is obvious the instant it is seen - a bit more effort than 'eh, just use the seal'.

    Which, again, is weird, since americans care more about their states by and large than even the denizens of the Isle of Wight I would guess.
    British people used to care about their counties. But 50 years of titting about with county council boundaries have muddied the water beyond people's ability to care.
    And I can see the argument for rational local government. But I can also see the argument for local government reflecting geography that people care about and identify with.
    And I also wish I could use words like "Cheshire" and it be clear and unambiguous exactly where I mean.
    Problem being that counties do not align with geogrpahy that people care about and identify with. Wiltshire is a case in point - by and large it's a donut, with a series of towns on the edge and emptiness in the middle, and the cluster of towns close together in the West look more to Bath than they would to the sole city, Salisbury.
    But US states are the same.
    There is no obvious reason why people's emotional loyalty should reflect economic geography.
    Though isn't the problem that English counties (if you're being purist about them) have too many anomalies where the borders run through the middle of places? So it's clearly dumb to separate Christchurch (historically Hampshire) from Bournemouth and Poole (Dorset). Hence the Heathite Counties that nobody really liked. And Greater London, which some people moan about as a concept to this day. Especially in Romford.

    It's where the "counties are like US states" analogy breaks down; there are places where the lived geography crosses state lines, but it's less of an issue. Partly because the USA is bigger and emptier, but also becuase it was mapped at a time that people could build big bridges. So the two sides of a river were usually seen as the same place.

    On the other hand, if we could agree that the elected politician in charge of a country or similar was called a Count, I'd be cool with that.
    38 counties, each headed by a sheriff.
    16 metros, each headed by a mayor.

    Align the police, health, and other boundaries to fit.

    Fund local government properly.
    But take social care provision, which has crowded out truly local activities, into central government’s responsibility.

    Next.
    I'd be happy to compromise on sheriff (though ambitous politicians in the East Midlands might have views on that title, and elected Counts would be way cooler.)

    And if we're making counties the main unit, we probably need something relatably small beneath them- towns or urban parishes, even if all they do is flags, flower displays, lunch clubs for senior citizens and activities for children.

    But the key thing- local government needs discretion over taxing and spending. Social care is only the biggest of the herd of elephants in the room there. At the moment, councils are basically told how much tax they can raise, and they have little control over the amount they have to spend. In which case, what's the blooming point?
    The US is a hotchpotch of conflicting local sales, property and income taxes…and seems to work. Local democracy seems colourful and vigorous (though hardly immune to criticism).

    I’m Britain, local councils have to go on bended knee to Whitehall if they so much as want to install a new public toilet block.

    It’s a boring subject to be passionate about.
    But I am passionate about it because if you live in Middlesbrough (for example), there’s basically nothing you can do to change Middlesbrough, for good or for ill.

    I contend that the lack of a functioning local democracy is a significant drain on national GDP.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206

    Dialup said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    We will likely end up with something Swiss-like, I think.
    The way things are carrying on, it may be possible to sell FOM as delivering LESS immigration.
    Or even an opportunity for Brits to go and live in wealthier places.

    How bad does it have to get for a future bus to say "The EU would send us £X million a week. Let's spend it on our NHS."?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    I like our county flags.
    Some are OK.
    I’m not super excited by the Hampshire one.

    Britain has some great (maybe the best in the world, actually) graphic designers, but they’re obvs not working on these flags.
    Hampshire is mine, and I both like it and have one.

    Tread carefully!
    That’s why I noted it.
    I just think it’s a bad design, sorry.

    I work in a broader design-y industry and I have strong opinions about such things.

    A lot of these flags were adopted very recently, and…they’re just not very good.
    I like it's regalism and how striking it is.

    I definitely identity with it.

    I identify with the Union Flag more, but I am also proud of Hampshire- my county.
    Luv Hampshire,
    Luv the king,
    Luv me old school,

    Hate deer,
    Hate bookshops,
    Hate higher tax rate

    Casino Bouquet

    The snobbery is strong in this one.
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561

    The snobbery is strong in this one.

    The first stage in resolving an issue is accepting you have one. Good for you.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 6,230
    Dialup said:

    Dialup said:

    @bigjohnowls I love you mate but let's be honest, at this point any objectivity you have has gone out the window and anything Labour says or does you twist into how much you hate SKS.

    We get it.

    Wheras SKS fans will defend absolutely anything including just this week

    Letting the Public Order Bill "bed in" rather than reversing it.

    Can you just imagine if Corbyn had a sex pest in his Shadow Cabinet?

    Would SKS fans be so "relaxed" in those circumstances?

    I don't defend anything [SKS] does, I just don't understand why you hate him so much.
    I'm afraid there are a few obsessives on here who are unhinged in their hatred, whether of the left or the right. And one or two people who repeat vile tropes, like the one just now about working from home.

    Thankfully, these unhappy old men are an extremely small minority and the level of debate is usually high, even when in disagreement with someone's point of view.

    Have a nice evening everyone.

    xx
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,392
    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811

    Dialup said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    We will likely end up with something Swiss-like, I think.
    The way things are carrying on, it may be possible to sell FOM as delivering LESS immigration.
    Net anyway. It makes it easier to emigrate so would be of great benefit to Brits wanting to retire to the sun. Currently only the rich can, but FoM would put it back within the reach of those on more modest pensions.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,653
    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,392
    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529
    edited May 2023
    algarkirk said:

    I remember reading somewhere that there was a concentration of celtic-type DNA down in Kent way, for some reason.

    Arise, ancient Kentish ! From my point of view, more disappointingly, however, it's also very heavily Tory, though, or at least it has been up to now.

    If so, it may be because the Weald was basically an impenetrable island, largely cut off from the main thoroughfares, and possibly therefore a redoubt of Celtic DNA.

    Local surnames seem pretty Saxon though.
    Names don't always help. They change while DNA doesn't.

    Around my little place Southern Burgundy, where I am ensconced this evening without family as I have French notary stuff to be doing tomorrow, the place name endings vary more than anywhere else in the country.

    In the cote d’or and cote châlonnaise and parts of the Mâconnais the equivalent of our “ing” is “ay”. Vezelay, Santenay, Volnay, Gamay, Chardonnay, Marsannay etc. There’s a châlonnaise “ey” variation too: Mercurey, Mellecey.

    In much of the cote de Beaune and châlonnaise it’s just “y”: Buxy, Givry, Rully, Chagny.

    Hit the mâconnais and its “é”: Azé, Igé, Verzé, viré-clessé and various others.

    Then into Beaujolais it’s a variation on this: “ié”: Villié-Morgon, Fleurie, Regnié-durette, Lacié, Quincié. From then on down towards the Rhône valley it’s dominated by “as”: Chenas, Julienas, Arnas, Limas, all the way to Privas.

    Jura and Savoie: “Ax”, “az” and “ix”. Oyonnax, Gex, La Clusaz, Chamonix, Bernex, la Forclaz and so on.

    There are probably other variations.

    Western France by contrast. Everything is just “ac”, from Brittany to Languedoc. Very boring.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    I remember reading somewhere that there was a concentration of celtic-type DNA down in Kent way, for some reason.

    Arise, ancient Kentish ! From my point of view, more disappointingly, however, it's also very heavily Tory, though, or at least it has been up to now.

    Not necessarily forever. The road where my vineyard sits, in Pett Bottom, divides 2 council wards. On the West it’s Labour, on the east it’s Lib Dem. In the latest elections the Lib Dem got 84%. High North Downs, rural as you like. Constituency is Labour (Rosie).
    And Sevenoaks town - possibly the most Tory bit of Kent - now has almost entirely LibDem councillors, and even the well respected former Tory council leader lost his seat. Like the celts, the surviving Tories have been driven back into the countryside.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    The mistake was not going for Norway for now.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,116
    Heathener said:

    So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.

    And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.

    As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.

    Firstly, I’m predicting the Tories to move upward in tomorrows Opinium. If they’ve bothered to do one.
    I know it will be Tory increase because the last sample had them down so much in one go, the next sample will correct this.

    Secondly, the polls showing the Tories on the up were more indicative of the state of play then these polls showing wider lead for Labour, I know this is the case because the polls creating the Tory upward line were fuelled by Tory don’t knows saying Tory instead, back in the fold, so you have to believe Sunak has most those votes when it comes to an election, hence the Labour lead will be much smaller.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,099
    edited May 2023
    Omnium said:



    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.

    And like that... he was gone...
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,392
    Foxy said:

    Dialup said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    We will likely end up with something Swiss-like, I think.
    The way things are carrying on, it may be possible to sell FOM as delivering LESS immigration.
    Net anyway. It makes it easier to emigrate so would be of great benefit to Brits wanting to retire to the sun. Currently only the rich can, but FoM would put it back within the reach of those on more modest pensions.
    It’s certainly a huge irony ! The so called vote against the elite has left only the elite able to move to the EU .
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    The mistake was not going for Norway for now.
    Yes, but that ignores that "Norway for Now" was not what either side wanted in a highly polarised debate.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529
    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,811
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    Friendlier than Paris is a pretty low bar!
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,698
    edited May 2023
    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,517
    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
    If you want FOM to return, you will need to create labour market protections that deal downward pressure on wages at the bottom of the labour market. This is Labour isn’t talking about FOM.

    What are your suggested solutions?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    I like our county flags.
    Some are OK.
    I’m not super excited by the Hampshire one.

    Britain has some great (maybe the best in the world, actually) graphic designers, but they’re obvs not working on these flags.
    Hampshire is mine, and I both like it and have one.

    Tread carefully!
    That’s why I noted it.
    I just think it’s a bad design, sorry.

    I work in a broader design-y industry and I have strong opinions about such things.

    A lot of these flags were adopted very recently, and…they’re just not very good.
    I like it's regalism and how striking it is.

    I definitely i
    Dialup said:

    The snobbery is strong in this one.

    The first stage in resolving an issue is accepting you have one. Good for you.
    Do you think you have an issue given you post on here every 5 minutes 24 hours a day?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529
    edited May 2023
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    Friendlier than Paris is a pretty low bar!
    True. But you gotta start somewhere. And while biding my time at lunch in the cafe of the Olympic museum in Lausanne today I actually got regaled by a stranger who wanted to teach me sudoku.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    Objectively, wiser than Leon….

    Mmm.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932
    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,392
    I’m willing to settle for Labour as the largest party . If offered that now I would grab it . As long as the Tories are removed from office I will be happy . Of course I’d love to see a Labour majority but I will just be relieved to see the back of the Tories.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    You can watch the waterspout?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,003
    edited May 2023

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    I like our county flags.
    Some are OK.
    I’m not super excited by the Hampshire one.

    Britain has some great (maybe the best in the world, actually) graphic designers, but they’re obvs not working on these flags.
    Hampshire is mine, and I both like it and have one.

    Tread carefully!
    That’s why I noted it.
    I just think it’s a bad design, sorry.

    I work in a broader design-y industry and I have strong opinions about such things.

    A lot of these flags were adopted very recently, and…they’re just not very good.
    I like it's regalism and how striking it is.

    I definitely i
    Dialup said:

    The snobbery is strong in this one.

    The first stage in resolving an issue is accepting you have one. Good for you.
    Do you think you have an issue given you post on here every 5 minutes 24 hours a day?
    Give the lad a break. He's not even on 500 posts, and he's been on here for years.
  • Options
    DialupDialup Posts: 561
    No I don’t have any issues but thank you for checking in with me Casino_Royale. You are a kind and caring chap.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206

    Heathener said:

    So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.

    And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.

    As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.

    Firstly, I’m predicting the Tories to move upward in tomorrows Opinium. If they’ve bothered to do one.
    I know it will be Tory increase because the last sample had them down so much in one go, the next sample will correct this.

    Secondly, the polls showing the Tories on the up were more indicative of the state of play then these polls showing wider lead for Labour, I know this is the case because the polls creating the Tory upward line were fuelled by Tory don’t knows saying Tory instead, back in the fold, so you have to believe Sunak has most those votes when it comes to an election, hence the Labour lead will be much smaller.
    Have you seen the latest Wikiworm though?



    OK, it's oversensitive to the latest poll (which does look a bit outliery). But the changes in the red and blue line need a swanee whistle to accompany them. Imagine Sid James seeing Barbara Windsor for the red line, then Hattie Jacques for the blue.

    If the worm is to be believed, we're back to mid-February, and most of Sunak's Spring Surgette has unwound.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    The mistake was not going for Norway for now.
    Alastair Meeks himself might have gone for it himself if we had.

    He wanted a "conscious uncoupling" with the EU whilst staying in the single market.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877
    In 2024, unlike this year, the Tories will have to defend a fairly decent set of election results from 2020. Could be interesting…..
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,930
    GIN1138 said:

    Omnium said:



    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.

    And like that... he was gone...
    Mr Benn?

  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,962
    edited May 2023
    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
    My granddaughter starts a one year assignment to a Milan Law firm in August as a translator through Leeds University as part of her Italian language and culture course

    She is 20 today, a birthday she shares with Madeleine McCann
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    The mistake was not going for Norway for now.
    Yes, but that ignores that "Norway for Now" was not what either side wanted in a highly polarised debate.
    Plus, Norway (whether for now or forever) is one of those compromises which appears to deliver the worst of both worlds- especially if you are not a smallish oil-rich country.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932
    Dialup said:

    No I don’t have any issues but thank you for checking in with me Casino_Royale. You are a kind and caring chap.

    You are Horse (we all know it) and falling into precisely the same issues you had under your previous pseudonym: the neediness, the desperate matynesss, being on here 24 hours a day, the craven search for an identity- the need to anchor that identity in opposition to those of others. Your somewhat amateur experimentation with humour.

    Yep, you have issues. But, hey ho - none of us are perfect.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    The Arizona flag is one ugly mf

    I love it. Distinctive, colourful, simple.

    And believe you me, there are a lot worse flags in the Union

    DOES YOUR FLAG FAIL? Grey Grades The State Flags!

    (I like the base rules set for the video - keep it simple, distinct, no tiny details, don'g go overboard on colours unless you know what you're doing, try to be symbolic, do not use words, and definitely don't write your name on it)

    New Mexico, Utah are good. Wyoming's almost is.

    State pride seems to be pretty good in the USA, so I'm surprised so many just stuck with their state seal on a blue background.
    I actually think the US state flags are all pretty good, with the possible exception of Colorado.

    The English county flags, most of which have been designed and adopted in the past several years, are sometimes pretty awful.
    I do, like the chap in the video, kind of mark down what might be reasonable designs (on the basis some of the seals are good), due to being too similar to one another if you were lining them up next to each other.

    Many of the county flags are a bit busy or dizzying in colour, but I think that makes them more distintive and appealing.
    Of course few are aware of them and fewer use them, good or bad, as it is a bit late to try to develop (or overdevelop) a sense of county identiy the way US States can. Outside of Yorkshire anyway.

    But i fly my bustard flag with pride.
    You missed one…
    Also hideous. The attempt to create an Isle of Wight shaped diamond just doesn’t work. It looks like a 90s tv identity, presumably for a regional news programme.
    I like our county flags.
    Some are OK.
    I’m not super excited by the Hampshire one.

    Britain has some great (maybe the best in the world, actually) graphic designers, but they’re obvs not working on these flags.
    Hampshire is mine, and I both like it and have one.

    Tread carefully!
    That’s why I noted it.
    I just think it’s a bad design, sorry.

    I work in a broader design-y industry and I have strong opinions about such things.

    A lot of these flags were adopted very recently, and…they’re just not very good.
    I like it's regalism and how striking it is.

    I definitely i
    Dialup said:

    The snobbery is strong in this one.

    The first stage in resolving an issue is accepting you have one. Good for you.
    Do you think you have an issue given you post on here every 5 minutes 24 hours a day?
    Give the lad a break. He's not even on 500 posts, and he's been on here for years.
    Fair point.

    The image does grate though; I look much more like Roger Moore with the charm to match.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988
    TimS said:

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
    Geneva isn’t cheap and the city is v dull.
    Yes to Lausanne and Montreux though.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,388

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,116

    Heathener said:

    So the last 3 opinion poll leads for Labour are: 19%, 17% and now 27% today. An average of 21%.

    And before you discount Omnisis remember that they correctly called the local election NEV lead at 9%.

    As I keep saying, the writing's on the wall.

    Firstly, I’m predicting the Tories to move upward in tomorrows Opinium. If they’ve bothered to do one.
    I know it will be Tory increase because the last sample had them down so much in one go, the next sample will correct this.

    Secondly, the polls showing the Tories on the up were more indicative of the state of play then these polls showing wider lead for Labour, I know this is the case because the polls creating the Tory upward line were fuelled by Tory don’t knows saying Tory instead, back in the fold, so you have to believe Sunak has most those votes when it comes to an election, hence the Labour lead will be much smaller.
    Have you seen the latest Wikiworm though?



    OK, it's oversensitive to the latest poll (which does look a bit outliery). But the changes in the red and blue line need a swanee whistle to accompany them. Imagine Sid James seeing Barbara Windsor for the red line, then Hattie Jacques for the blue.

    If the worm is to be believed, we're back to mid-February, and most of Sunak's Spring Surgette has unwound.
    “Have you seen the latest Wikiworm”

    You mean the Boob Chart? Where’s ever you look there’s tits.

    Yes I agree with your point, there’s been some turn around. A fortnight ago the Tories had a steep upward line on the end, this is now a comely pair of breasts.

    I asked down thread what caused this, from a Tory perspective knowing what will know how exactly to un-cause it.

    If they went up based so much on Sunak’s popularity, will that ever improve again this parliament.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,128
    kle4 said:

    Anyway, surely Hawaii has the best state flag because it has the UK flag in it?

    Hawai'i flag also has Russian AND French flags incorporated, plus stripes as with USA; actually Hawai'i flag, decreed by King Kamehameha I, was based on East India Company maritime banner.

    Number of states in Northeast and Midwest have flags modeled on Union regimental flags from Civil War, so while design(s) may be pedestrian for state flags, they ARE historic

    NOTE that Ohio has a funky pennant for a state flag, while Oregon is only state with different symbols on either side - state seal on front, beaver on back.

    MY OWN TOP TEN in alpha order

    Alaska
    Arizona
    California
    Hawai'i
    Maryland
    New Mexico
    Ohio
    South Carolina
    Texas
    Wyoming

    Honorable mention
    Georgia (for ditching Confederate flag)
    Mississippi (ditto)

    Problem with flags with seals, is that much if not most of time they are very hard to actually see when flag is actually flying.

    Though you (or at least locals) can readily distinguish, for example, the horses flanking PA seal and the portrait of George in WA seal. Also, fact that WA has green background stands out, as does the blue border around white background for WVa.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,392

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
    My granddaughter starts a one year assignment to a Milan Law firm in August as a translator through Leeds University as part of her Italian language and culture course

    She is 20 today, a birthday she shares with Madeleine McCann
    That sounds very exciting. You must be very proud .
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988
    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    I doubt the pound is an issue for the EU.
    The challenge is whether Britain is willing to sign up to the institutions, where QMV is more and more widely used.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,653
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    And just to put in a word for the poor benighted French-Swiss: Geneva really isn’t as snooty and unfriendly as people make out. Objectively friendlier than Paris for a start. Just has a bad rep.
    That's a little bit like saying that syphilis is better than gonorrhea.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206
    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,962
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
    My granddaughter starts a one year assignment to a Milan Law firm in August as a translator through Leeds University as part of her Italian language and culture course

    She is 20 today, a birthday she shares with Madeleine McCann
    That sounds very exciting. You must be very proud .
    Thank you

    Yes we are

    She speaks Welsh, French, Italian and Japanese and was offered a place at Kyoto University but decided to concentrate on Italy

    In 2015 I took my family of 10 (6 adults and 4 grandchildren) to Tuscany and stayed in a wonderful Villa

    It was directly as a result of this holiday she fell in love with Italy

    Travel broadens the mind
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    TimS said:

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
    Geneva isn’t cheap and the city is v dull.
    Yes to Lausanne and Montreux though.
    On recent evidence Geneva is significantly cheaper than New York.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
    Geneva isn’t cheap and the city is v dull.
    Yes to Lausanne and Montreux though.
    On recent evidence Geneva is significantly cheaper than New York.
    Everywhere is cheaper than New York.

    Edit: actually, perhaps not, bar rent.
    From Numbeo…


    Consumer Prices in New York, NY are 8.7% lower than in Geneva (without rent)
    Consumer Prices Including Rent in New York, NY are 11.5% higher than in Geneva
    Rent Prices in New York, NY are 46.0% higher than in Geneva
    Restaurant Prices in New York, NY are 14.2% lower than in Geneva
    Groceries Prices in New York, NY are 3.0% lower than in Geneva
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,698
    edited May 2023
    I'm interested to see today that Rousseau was from Geneva, which is quite some legacy compared to what one might expect for what could be described be a more historically tangential city, in Europe.

    Also, I see, and now remember today too, that Einstein spent quite a lot of time in Geneva. Some greater figures than one might imagine ; perhaps the lakes, vistas and locations, actually, were inspirational, after all.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    I doubt the pound is an issue for the EU.
    The challenge is whether Britain is willing to sign up to the institutions, where QMV is more and more widely used.
    The moment for British re-entry, doubtless as a sadder and wiser country than when it first shot the Brexit albatross in 2016, will be when Ukraine joins.

    Last time we joined together with our neighbours Ireland. This time with our soon to be victorious ally and saviour of the West. It would be a poignant moment: two ancient civilisations committing together.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932
    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    I'm interested to see today that Rousseau was from Geneva, which is quite some legacy compared to what I would expect for what might be a more historically tangential European city.

    Also, I see, and now remember too, Einstein spent quite a lot of time in Geneva. Some greater figure than one might imagine ; perhaps the lakes and vistas were, actually, inspirational, after all.

    And Calvin
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
    Geneva isn’t cheap and the city is v dull.
    Yes to Lausanne and Montreux though.
    On recent evidence Geneva is significantly cheaper than New York.
    Everywhere is cheaper than New York.

    Edit: actually, perhaps not, bar rent.
    From Numbeo…


    Consumer Prices in New York, NY are 8.7% lower than in Geneva (without rent)
    Consumer Prices Including Rent in New York, NY are 11.5% higher than in Geneva
    Rent Prices in New York, NY are 46.0% higher than in Geneva
    Restaurant Prices in New York, NY are 14.2% lower than in Geneva
    Groceries Prices in New York, NY are 3.0% lower than in Geneva
    I’m shocked by the restaurant numbers but then I suppose my experience is places in midtown Manhattan.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Sloppy, lazy and clichéd thinking.

    Must try harder.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,388

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,022

    I'm interested to see today that Rousseau was from Geneva, which is quite some legacy compared to what one might expect for what could be described be a more historically tangential city, in Europe.

    Also, I see, and now remember today too, that Einstein spent quite a lot of time in Geneva. Some greater figures than one might imagine ; perhaps the lakes, vistas and locations actually were inspirational, after all.

    It's always been the quintessential French but not French city.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,104

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    To be fair, I don't think the EU wants to go through all this again. Our half-hearted rebate-obsessed membership was as traumatic for them as it was for us.

    The only two coherent positions were (or are) completely outside (preferably in a positive and constructive relationship with the EU) or wholly and completely at the centre of the project (Euro, Schengen, pushing for full political and economic union by 2030).
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,999

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,988
    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,962
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    I doubt the pound is an issue for the EU.
    The challenge is whether Britain is willing to sign up to the institutions, where QMV is more and more widely used.
    The moment for British re-entry, doubtless as a sadder and wiser country than when it first shot the Brexit albatross in 2016, will be when Ukraine joins.

    Last time we joined together with our neighbours Ireland. This time with our soon to be victorious ally and saviour of the West. It would be a poignant moment: two ancient civilisations committing together.
    The UK has just joined the CPTPP and Ukraine has announced it wants to join by the end of the year which of course complicates rejoining the EU considerably, if at all


    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/04/22/business/ukraine-pacific-trade-deal/
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,388

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    I doubt the pound is an issue for the EU.
    The challenge is whether Britain is willing to sign up to the institutions, where QMV is more and more widely used.
    Possibly not, though on the other hand the UK will be portrayed by opponents of accession as being under an obligation to join the Eurozone - for the good reason that it is, however much others will point to existing holdouts like Poland - and a lot of integrationist enthusiasts and businesspeople would be positively lobbying for currency union, to get rid of exchange costs and to demonstrate irreversible commitment to the project.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 10,529

    I'm interested to see today that Rousseau was from Geneva, which is quite some legacy compared to what one might expect for what could be described be a more historically tangential city, in Europe.

    Also, I see, and now remember today too, that Einstein spent quite a lot of time in Geneva. Some greater figures than one might imagine ; perhaps the lakes, vistas and locations actually were inspirational, after all.

    It's always been the quintessential French but not French city.
    Quintessential East French / Savoyard city. Very similar in look and feel to Besançon, Lyon, Bourg en Bresse, Dijon, Annecy.

    I couldn’t help noticing I was in deep cover this week. I was being addressed by receptionists and waiting staff in French. And I worked out it was the smart well fitted blue suit, white shirt and short hair with slightly unshaven cheeks. A tiny wool scarf would have completed the look. I was evoking the understated yet infuriating elitism of the private banking ads in the Geneva airport corridors.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,086

    I'm interested to see today that Rousseau was from Geneva, which is quite some legacy compared to what one might expect for what could be described be a more historically tangential city, in Europe.

    Also, I see, and now remember today too, that Einstein spent quite a lot of time in Geneva. Some greater figures than one might imagine ; perhaps the lakes, vistas and locations actually were inspirational, after all.

    It's always been the quintessential French but not French city.
    It's like Wishaw, in a way.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,794

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    √(fuck all)
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,362

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Understandable, but sad. An old Remainer’s view.
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,086

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Well don't worry about them then. I really think it is that simple.
    Good advice ! I need to chill out a bit more . I’m fortunate as I do have dual nationality so have kept my FOM rights . I would like to see some mobility scheme for younger people to give them a chance to spend a few years in the EU and vice versa . I’m hoping that this could happen as relations seem to be improving between the UK and EU.
    My granddaughter starts a one year assignment to a Milan Law firm in August as a translator through Leeds University as part of her Italian language and culture course

    She is 20 today, a birthday she shares with Madeleine McCann
    That sounds very exciting. You must be very proud .
    Thank you

    Yes we are

    She speaks Welsh, French, Italian and Japanese and was offered a place at Kyoto University but decided to concentrate on Italy

    In 2015 I took my family of 10 (6 adults and 4 grandchildren) to Tuscany and stayed in a wonderful Villa

    It was directly as a result of this holiday she fell in love with Italy

    Travel broadens the mind
    As a TV recommendation 'A Taste of Italy' is worth a shot https://www.channel4.com/programmes/a-taste-of-italy/ . It was one of those shows that I watched during lockdown(s) that really made me wish we weren't having lockdown(s). Kinda halfway - presenters not wearing any masks, but serving staff masked up.

    And Nisha Katona is a crush of mine, so there's that biasing my review I guess. But good food, travel and recipes are always enjoyable.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,963
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    What does closer to SM mean? There are members and non-members.
    Switzerland is not a member of the Single Market, but they are certainly very close (and closer, I suspect than we will ever be).
    The mistake was not going for Norway for now.
    You can still do that tomorrow night in Eurovision
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,086

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    My overriding memory of Geneva is heading out of the hotel in the morning at about 7.30/8am and various woman propositioning me in the street by lifting their skirts, showing their 'front bottoms' and asking 'Do you want?'.

    That and wig shops. So many wig shops.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,000

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    Saffron on saffron :lol:
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,794
    ohnotnow said:

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    My overriding memory of Geneva is heading out of the hotel in the morning at about 7.30/8am and various woman propositioning me in the street by lifting their skirts, showing their 'front bottoms' and asking 'Do you want?'.

    That and wig shops. So many wig shops.
    did they expect you toupée?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,206

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Sloppy, lazy and clichéd thinking.

    Must try harder.
    Oh, I love it when you're angry.

    Remember that the generation who were least convinced by the EEC in '75 were the ones who got Brexit over the line in '16. The rest of the country were OK with things as they were going.

    Remember that the polling since 2016 doesn't show many people changing their minds either way. It's always been an identity question, not a rational one. People rarely change their minds about that sort of thing.

    Remember that, bluntly, a lot of the star campaigners on the Leave side in 2016 have been seriously discredited as utter shits who understandably despise each other. Can you really imagine Johnson, Gove, Sunak and Cummings working on the same team again, even to defend their great historical achievement? Who do the public like enough to front the "stay out" campaign?

    My guess is that those who want to plant the UK securely outside the EU have got somewhat less than a decade before demographics mean that the will of the people shifts decisively to "whatevs- just make my life easier". Had the 2019 government not been so rubbish, had the 2024 election been the forgone conclusion it appeared until quite recently, they might have had time to secure Brexit. But they royally screwed that up. So the long slouch towards Bethlehem Brussels starts.

    Oh and "must try harder"? Such a cliché, darling.

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,930

    Priti Patel has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over the 'managed decline' of the Tory party

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1657064893013475328?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    Once upon a time I really rated the Independent - I bought it every day for maybe 20 years. These days it's entirely unworthy of its heritage.

  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,226
    IanB2 said:

    In 2024, unlike this year, the Tories will have to defend a fairly decent set of election results from 2020. Could be interesting…..

    There were no elections in 2020 because of COVID. They were pushed back to 2021 and Councillors elected then have served only a 3 year term.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,057
    edited May 2023

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    And herein I think lies the difficulty. In a sense nothing has changed. As honest people know the Brexit referendum was a choice between two ultimately unsatisfactory options. The only option favoured by a real and lasting majority in the UK would be a different sort of EU. This EU would have no state-like aims (so no ECB, no Euro, no Potemkin parliament, FOM only if bilaterally chosen between willing states).

    The creation of the Euro - which SFAICS cannot be undone - was the ending of any such hope.

    It's like domestic politics - a choice as to which is worse, Tory or Labour. It is quite possible we shall decide that it is worse to be out of than in the EU; but it would be delusional to think that the preference for In would be keen, committed or enthusiastic. The old issues of democratic deficit and Eurostate would immediately emerge.

  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,000
    TimS said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Well, we shall see. Crudely put, if you're relying on the deaths of old farts to do the heavy lifting then you're discounting the fact that a lot of middle-aged people are morphing into a fresh supply old farts at the same time. This explains the enduring popularity of garden centre cafes, tartan tins of shortbread biscuits and the Conservative Party.

    Beyond that, the longer the UK is out of the EU, the more we diverge and the greater the likelihood that voters will think that going back again is all too much like hard work. People are going to need to be actively persuaded if a volte face on Brexit is to be achieved.
    Which is why Ukrainian accession is key. Imagine if a victorious Zelenskyy openly requests Britain to rejoin during his Nobel peace prize speech.
    If the EU is such a bad idea, Eurosceptics should advise the Ukrainians to NOT join!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,877

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    It is, and things get better as you go up the
    lake. Well worth a visit, one of the most beautiful spots in Europe which isn’t touristed because it’s seen as a business location. Lots of European principal companies benefitting from the tax rulings in the canton of Vaud.

    From Geneva to Lausanne you can often see M’ont Blanc across the lake. Which is beautifully clear and blue and swimmable. Lausanne itself is a very nice city. Then East of there the lake narrows and the mountains draw in at Vevey, home of Nestle, and Montreux onetime home of Freddie Mercury and the jazz festival. Then you’re in one of the posher bits of the alps and a hop and a skip from Verbier.

    Geneva is cheap and easy to fly or drive to. Should be visited more.
    Geneva isn’t cheap and the city is v dull.
    Yes to Lausanne and Montreux though.
    On recent evidence Geneva is significantly cheaper than New York.
    Everywhere is cheaper than New York.

    Edit: actually, perhaps not, bar rent.
    From Numbeo…


    Consumer Prices in New York, NY are 8.7% lower than in Geneva (without rent)
    Consumer Prices Including Rent in New York, NY are 11.5% higher than in Geneva
    Rent Prices in New York, NY are 46.0% higher than in Geneva
    Restaurant Prices in New York, NY are 14.2% lower than in Geneva
    Groceries Prices in New York, NY are 3.0% lower than in Geneva
    Ah, but in the US they add the tax on after…and then you have to pay the staff yourselves on top.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,000

    .

    Isn't Geneva supposed to be very beautiful, in its location, and vista ?

    I've heard this from friends many times, but never unfortunately visited, myself.

    When the sun is out, absolutely.

    Very little to do in Geneva itself at the weekend though.
    When I went in 2014, I took a train ride to Montreux via Lausanne. Quite nice really.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 11,794

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    It probably will be easy- hardly anyone is being convinced out of their 2016-Remainy views, the youth are not leaping for joy at their global British freedoms, and Brexit remains predominantly the project of a specific generation. It's tactless to point out that the Brexit generation are now going to that place where there are no referendums, but it's also true.

    But it will only be easy when the time comes. What it definitely won't be is quick.
    Sloppy, lazy and clichéd thinking.

    Must try harder.
    Oh, I love it when you're angry.

    Remember that the generation who were least convinced by the EEC in '75 were the ones who got Brexit over the line in '16. The rest of the country were OK with things as they were going.

    Remember that the polling since 2016 doesn't show many people changing their minds either way. It's always been an identity question, not a rational one. People rarely change their minds about that sort of thing.

    Remember that, bluntly, a lot of the star campaigners on the Leave side in 2016 have been seriously discredited as utter shits who understandably despise each other. Can you really imagine Johnson, Gove, Sunak and Cummings working on the same team again, even to defend their great historical achievement? Who do the public like enough to front the "stay out" campaign?

    My guess is that those who want to plant the UK securely outside the EU have got somewhat less than a decade before demographics mean that the will of the people shifts decisively to "whatevs- just make my life easier". Had the 2019 government not been so rubbish, had the 2024 election been the forgone conclusion it appeared until quite recently, they might have had time to secure Brexit. But they royally screwed that up. So the long slouch towards Bethlehem Brussels starts.

    Oh and "must try harder"? Such a cliché, darling.

    So you're just conveniently forgetting that the "stay out" campaign will be able to call on Piers Corbyn? They can't lose.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,104
    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 56,932

    pigeon said:

    Dialup said:

    I do not feel that Brexit will ever be reversed.

    I think we will move closer to the Single Market over time but this will not involve full membership.

    Just finished an international conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsouJoc5-P8), where I was asked by three different EU nationals whether Britain would rejoin. I said I couldn't see it in the next 5 years, maybe the following Parliament, "but would you want us?" They all looked a bit taken back and said things like "Hmm, I see what you mean" and "Only if you were keen, not just to create trouble again".
    Hence the fact that, even if popular support can be found to reopen the whole can of worms again, going back to the EU must necessarily be a long-term project. A stable 2:1 majority in favour needs to be established amongst public opinion, and that's with an assumption that we're going to give up the pound and adopt the euro to boot. That's not going to be easy.
    Too right.

    You can be sure I'd do everything in my power to sabotage the fuck out of it if we went back in.

    When will the Eurocrats realise we want a different and limited political model?
    All the public will care about is “am I and my family better off”. They’ll conclude “no”. Therefore, we’ll go back on - either EEA or full EU with Ukraine (as someone has said)

    We are a European nation - and we can’t escape the current reality.
    We are and we aren't.

    Even the Remainest of Remainers take all their cultural cues from the USA - not continental Europe - because if we did European style Christian Democracy/Social Democracy would be a thing, and we'd be far less ultra-individualist and more socially conservative about language, heritage, migration, and tradition, just like they are.

    We are a bit of both, but neither, and they want to force us into a box.

    That's the problem.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,930
    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    The anger amongst Remainers is likely to go through the roof as immigration rockets and not a peep from the right wing press who essentially drove the leave vote by their relentless anti EU nationals campaign .

    Brexit couldn’t even deliver the apparent one thing many Leavers had wanted or were told they wanted as in lower net-migration!

    Millions lost their freedom of movement rights , many dreams were shattered and for what .

    Not a single Leave promise has been met.


    Angry remainers. Are they like Anna Soubry?

    You're completely right that Brexit has been a shitshow, but there wasn't ever a unified approach to what it should or could be. I voted to leave, but I'm damned sure very few people even considered the factors that made me do so.

    As a remainer I don't think you have anybody to be angry at. The Brexit voters aren't a something. They've dispersed and gone their own separate ways.
    My anger is aimed not at Leavers but those especially in the right wing press who waged a relentless campaign against EU nationals .

    Ah you mean those that objected to the racist policy you advocate of preferring white christian immigration over brown people.....hands you your bnp application form
    Completely ridiculous post.
This discussion has been closed.