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We could be heading for cross-over in Scotland – politicalbetting.com

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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,320
    kinabalu said:

    I don't think we want "keep Putin in power" as a war aim though. What's best is to just keep supporting Ukraine (but short of escalating into a NATO v Russia affair) and see where the chips fall, managing the situation appropriately as it develops. What's absolutely essential is that Joe again beats off Trump/MAGA. Putin's best chance for his abomination to pay off is if god forbid he doesn't.
    If Biden and his carers did really want Ukraine to "win" then the move would be to foment a colour revolution or similar insurrection in Kazakhstan. The US doesn't give a relative fuck about that but it's enormously important to the RF. Make Putin choose between Kazakhstan and Ukraine. SMO 2 in Central Asia would also be a welcome distraction to the RF population from an unhappy ending to SMO 1 in Novorossiya.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,671
    edited April 2023
    Wow.

    Elon Musk has been ordered to give a deposition in a lawsuit blaming Tesla's driverless technology for a fatal crash after the carmaker suggested his public statements about autopilot could have been deepfaked.

    Santa Clara County Superior Court Judge Evette D Pennypacker said she found Tesla's argument for why its billionaire chief executive should not testify “deeply troubling to the court”.

    The company had argued that it could not vouch for the authenticity of videotaped interviews which show Mr Musk pushing its driver-assistance technology, saying it is possible some of them were digitally altered.

    The judge wrote: “Their position is that because Mr Musk is famous and might be more of a target for deep fakes, his public statements are immune.

    “In other words, Mr Musk, and others in his position, can simply say whatever they like in the public domain, then hide behind the potential for their recorded statements being a deep fake to avoid taking ownership of what they did actually say and do.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/27/elon-musk-ordered-stop-deepfake-excuse-tesla-trial/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,696

    How much did it cost for Brunel to design Paddington?
    Brunel’s first design for Paddington was abandoned because cost overruns elsewhere on the GWR line meant the required budget wasn’t available. In all, it took from 1835 to 1854, so 19 years, for the station to be finished, which is perhaps not what we should be trying to emulate. I’ve not been able to find the answer to your question. I don’t know that a separate design budget was even ever designated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    edited April 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Not knowing anything about Russia means that I am unsure of the implications of Ukraine succeeding "on the battlefield" and reclaiming Crimea militarily. It was put to me recently (at a conference, by a former UK ambassador to Russia) that Russia believes the Crimea is as Russian as we believe Cornwall is part of the UK. And hence it is to them simply non-negotiable. If it is non-negotiable then that means it will need to be settled on the battlefield if Ukraine wants to reclaim it.

    Will we as a global community support that aim? Difficult to say - logic says no because either it succeeds and then we need to be aware of Russia's response, or it fails in which case why start in the first place.
    They obviously dont believe it to the extent Cornwall because they didnt press the issue post 1991 other than securing their naval facilities. So whilst always seeing it as Russian ethnically it's not like they were acting like a part of the motherland was being occupied. But its obviously of critical importance and now tied pretty tightly to their vision of the country and so surely not something they give up like Kherson.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    That’s my understanding too. Crimea is Russia. It is also Putin’s one outstanding legacy - even more precious after the debacle of this latest war

    So if Ukraine takes Crimea Putin would very likely fall with his regime OR to forestall that nightmare (for him) Putin would plunge the whole country into total war to prevent the surrender of crimea

    FWIW my guess is that President Biden would tell the Ukes to stop before it got to that point anyway. As he showed in Afghanistan he’s not afraid of quite brutal realpolitik

    Fuck knows what president Trump would do
    Biden wouldn't stop the Ukrainians taking back Crimea. The administration has been very clear on that point. Crimea is Ukraine.

    Repeatedly they did dissuade the Ukrainians from making a spectacular attack on Moscow in February. Moscow is Russia.

    The dividing lines are very clear. Ukraine's 1991 borders.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794

    Wow.

    Elon Musk has been ordered to give a deposition in a lawsuit blaming Tesla's driverless technology for a fatal crash after the carmaker suggested his public statements about autopilot could have been deepfaked.

    Santa Clara County Superior Court Judge Evette D Pennypacker said she found Tesla's argument for why its billionaire chief executive should not testify “deeply troubling to the court”.

    The company had argued that it could not vouch for the authenticity of videotaped interviews which show Mr Musk pushing its driver-assistance technology, saying it is possible some of them were digitally altered.

    The judge wrote: “Their position is that because Mr Musk is famous and might be more of a target for deep fakes, his public statements are immune.

    “In other words, Mr Musk, and others in his position, can simply say whatever they like in the public domain, then hide behind the potential for their recorded statements being a deep fake to avoid taking ownership of what they did actually say and do.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/27/elon-musk-ordered-stop-deepfake-excuse-tesla-trial/

    And so it begins. The end of truth. Welcome to the deepfake era

    Everybody will now be able to deny everything, even if it is filmed and recorded. I have no fucking clue how we deal with that
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    Simples. They hired Matt Hancocks Landlord.

    That’s not the name of a beer by the way, at least not yet, it’s an actual person given government contracts.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,696
    edited April 2023
    eek said:

    Wish it was but so far £289m has been spent on Euston for HS2 although that does include some actual preparation work.
    I commute to and from Euston. A huge amount of actual building work has been done already. Well, I guess a lot of it is the opposite of building, taking down existing buildings in preparation. The building I used to work in is now a hole in the ground.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819

    Crimea could be easier than the Donbas, because it's easier to isolate Crimea, making it impossible to supply, and consequently untenable for Russia to hold.

    It's also more important for Ukraine's future security than the Donbas.

    So, yes.
    - Regain Crimea.
    - Swap Donbass (which is, basically, a shithole) for Kaliningrad Oblast.
    - Poland and Ukraine unite to become the Intermarium Commonwealth thereby bringing Ukraine into NATO and placing a nascent regional superpower on Russia's doorstep.
    - Do something about Belarus.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,309
    Scott_xP said:

    @emmadentcoad
    With huge regret. I have decided to resign from the Labour Party.

    I'm not leaving the party. The party has left me.

    Why all these mad as a bag of frogs Corbynistas leaving Labour?

    Starmer fans please explain.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    That’s my understanding too. Crimea is Russia. It is also Putin’s one outstanding legacy - even more precious after the debacle of this latest war

    So if Ukraine takes Crimea Putin would very likely fall with his regime OR to forestall that nightmare (for him) Putin would plunge the whole country into total war to prevent the surrender of crimea

    FWIW my guess is that President Biden would tell the Ukes to stop before it got to that point anyway. As he showed in Afghanistan he’s not afraid of quite brutal realpolitik

    Fuck knows what president Trump would do
    At that point the Ukrainians would ignore Biden and his advisors know it. Hence they would not allow him to make the statement in the first place. This is not comment in support of one side or the other as far as the sense of pushing Russia goes. Merely pointing out that Realpolitik works both ways. If Ukraine has got to the point where they are in a position to retake Crimea then I strongly suspect they won't care what Biden says or does.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Leon said:

    That’s my understanding too. Crimea is Russia. It is also Putin’s one outstanding legacy - even more precious after the debacle of this latest war

    So if Ukraine takes Crimea Putin would very likely fall with his regime OR to forestall that nightmare (for him) Putin would plunge the whole country into total war to prevent the surrender of crimea

    FWIW my guess is that President Biden would tell the Ukes to stop before it got to that point anyway. As he showed in Afghanistan he’s not afraid of quite brutal realpolitik

    Fuck knows what president Trump would do
    Get Crimea surrounded and isolated, hopefully get the Donbas back, then say 'dont move on it...yet' might be the american suggestion. Humiliation but not total capitulation for Russia.

    Of course, Ukraine might not get in position to try!

    Trump would want a quick solution, he has bragged he could, so whatever is easiest.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    Dura_Ace said:

    Losing Crimea in the sense that Ukraine militarily defeat the RF forces there would definitely/probably/possibly be the end of Putin. What comes next? Dimon? Who knows other than it definitely wouldn't be Shoigu. The next RF President would immediately have to satiate an enormous sense of greivance and blood lust among the RF population though. So, at the very least, it would be total 100% WW2 style mobilisation and all out war while there was savage internecine conflict at the top of the RF government. If a nuke did pop off in those circumstances it could easily by accident or a freelancing general.
    Which is an argument for Ukraine using Crimea as a bargaining chip: Russia gets to keep Crimea,which is the only thing it cares about; Ukraine gets its way on everything else. This requires Ukraine to put Crimea into play and keep it there.

    The deal for normal countries would be get out t of Ukraine and your boys don't get slaughtered. But Putin doesn't care about them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    And so it begins. The end of truth. Welcome to the deepfake era

    Everybody will now be able to deny everything, even if it is filmed and recorded. I have no fucking clue how we deal with that
    How the court is seeking to deal with it - by getting people to testify in person. If you can't trust electronic communication because it can be faked, then the only other communication you have is communicating directly with people face to face.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    Biden wouldn't stop the Ukrainians taking back Crimea. The administration has been very clear on that point. Crimea is Ukraine.

    Repeatedly they did dissuade the Ukrainians from making a spectacular attack on Moscow in February. Moscow is Russia.

    The dividing lines are very clear. Ukraine's 1991 borders.
    The US have pretty much indicated they wouldn't support Ukraine going beyond the Feb 22 borders:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-goal-in-ukraine-drive-russians-back-to-pre-invasion-lines-blinken-says-11670351786

    “Our focus is on continuing to do what we’ve been doing, which is to make sure that Ukraine has in its hands what it needs to defend itself, what it needs to push back against the Russian aggression, to take back territory that’s been seized from it since Feb. 24, to make sure as well that it has the support economically and on a humanitarian basis to withstand what’s happening in the country every single day,” Mr. Blinken told the WSJ CEO Council Summit late Monday."

    This is from December, but it's about the clearest statement I can find from the US on how far their support would go.

  • TazTaz Posts: 17,625

    That does answer the question. Now for my question. Is it the fact inflation isn’t coming down as forecast why the government have started shitting themselves about the poll boosting wage settlements they were dolling out?

    The politics My understanding is, since start of the year the Tory Party have been on a “Save Rishi” approach to next Thursdays locals - fact is not so long ago there was talk of get rid of Rishi after bad locals - so much short termist gifts and over promising, they havn’t planned long term, just see off threat of Boris and Liz.

    The economics my understanding is Because food and energy prices can make markets more volatile, underlying inflation with these stripped out proves a more stable indicator - the one PB should be watching, not posting energy prices, as we have probably moved into a new ball game on inflation now. And by all accounts underlying was still high when last announced, whats been buoying that? Top economists at Bank of England said this week (amongst other things the front of Daily Mail had tantrum about) underlying inflation so stubbornly high, overall inflation might not now drop quickly to low point as promised.

    So my question, is it wage increases holding underlying inflation high, explaining why the government gone all hard ball on wage settlements again, rather take nurses to court than ACAS?

    I am right arn’t I.
    Inflation is coming down, it has come down slightly so far and is forecast to fall further and faster as the year goes on.

    It is forecast to fall to 2.9% by Q4 2023 on Trading Economics.

    Producer Price Inflation has been falling since last year.

    Of course these are forecasts but the trend is down and it appears we have peaked.

    The govt did not take nurses to court. They took the Union to court. They were right to do so as the action was not lawful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,568
    Scott_xP said:

    @emmadentcoad
    With huge regret. I have decided to resign from the Labour Party.

    I'm not leaving the party. The party has left me.

    Which one is she again? Loony or rebel?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    Cookie said:

    - Regain Crimea.
    - Swap Donbass (which is, basically, a shithole) for Kaliningrad Oblast.
    - Poland and Ukraine unite to become the Intermarium Commonwealth thereby bringing Ukraine into NATO and placing a nascent regional superpower on Russia's doorstep.
    - Do something about Belarus.
    The problem all proposals for ending the war face is: how do you get Russia to stick to it?

    Obviously having Ukraine in NATO is a big part of that, but it's one reason why I favour supporting Ukraine as much as possible. Fuck all chance of Russia settling for whatever concessions they are offered to stop fighting this time around.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    kinabalu said:

    The generic floating voter in other words. Worcester woman, Mondeo man, "Deano", etc etc. Loads of titles, same concept. You distil England down into the form of a single individual so uncannily representative of what England is that whoever they vote for come polling day wins the general election - then you pitch your rhetoric and policies (your 'offer') at this person. This is what the old chestnut "elections are won from the centre ground" really means in practice.
    But Deano's values strike me as the opposite of those of SKS.
    Obviously Corbyn's values were the opposite of Deano's, only much, much more so. But Deano, I would have thought, is no particular far of SKS's instinctive busybodying, nor of his instinctive cleaving to fashionable causes. What Deano wants is to get richer - which SKS seems to have no plan for - and for public services to work - which SKS seems to have no plan for.
    The electorate is much more complicated than one stereotype, of course. But if SKS is trying to appeal to that stereotype, well, I don't see what he's doing to do so.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    Taz said:

    Inflation is coming down, it has come down slightly so far and is forecast to fall further and faster as the year goes on.

    It is forecast to fall to 2.9% by Q4 2023 on Trading Economics.

    Producer Price Inflation has been falling since last year.

    Of course these are forecasts but the trend is down and it appears we have peaked.

    The govt did not take nurses to court. They took the Union to court. They were right to do so as the action was not lawful.
    So my question, is it now wage increases on underlying inflation making the fall in inflation more sticky than forecasts?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,309
    edited April 2023

    Pat Cullen and her union were in error and should have accepted it before it went to court

    She didn't even attend the hearing and the strike would have been illegal, thereby removing all the protections the unions have under strike laws

    The RCN now have to seek a new 6 month strike ballot and in view of the closeness of the previous one to reject the pay offer, and with other unions already having accepted it including Unison, the RCN could find the membership rejection of extending the strikes until Christmas
    Rishi smashing (I just heard Steve Brine on WATO) the militant RCN in the way Thatcher smashed (my interpretation) the NUM must be a joy to watch for the PB faithful.

    Perhaps we should all go out and stand on our doorsteps tonight and clap for the Conservative Government.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    edited April 2023
    Cookie said:

    Eh? How far we've come from those dark days when every alley on a Friday night was full of drunkards buggering seagulls?

    In all seriousness, what does Dave Lee of Roker Avenue do with his life now? If Nicola Sturgeon is having a dark time of it at the moment, she can at least console herself that her reputation has not sunk as low as that of Dave Lee of Roker Avenue, Sunderland.
    I know! If I were him I'd have been arguing for reporting restrictions. What a blow to his rep. Can he somehow turn it into a plus? It's hard to see how. Usually what you'd do is go onto our equivalent of Oprah - Loose Women - and bare all in a raw confessional, but he'd need an agent for that and he doesn't sound the type of person to have one.

    Still, my original point, back in the old days this sort of thing was par for the course and, ok, we shouldn't judge the past by today's standards, but it's good imo that we've become more enlightened. That said, we're still quite primitive in some ways. So let's keep our foot on the gas.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,309
    kle4 said:

    Which one is she again? Loony or rebel?
    Woof, woof!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    kinabalu said:

    I know! If I were him I'd have been arguing for reporting restrictions. What a blow to his rep. Can he somehow turn it into a plus? It's hard to see how. Usually what you'd do is go onto our equivalent of Oprah - Loose Women - and bare all in a raw confessional, but he'd need an agent for that and he doesn't sound the type of person to have one.

    Still, my original point, back in the old days this sort of thing was par for the course and, ok, we shouldn't judge the past by today's standards, but it's good imo that we've become more enlightened. That said, we're still quite primitive in some ways. So let's keep our foot on the gas.
    I honestly can't tell whether you're joking with your last para or not!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,290
    TOPPING said:

    Isn't that the plot of The Wicker Man?
    OH, SO WE CAN DO SPOILERS NOW CAN WE?

    (slams door in a huff)

    :)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,650
    edited April 2023

    Including Crimea? Do you think that's realistic?
    The equivalence drawn I am seeing is France giving up Bordeaux to China, if M Macron wants Ukraine to consider giving up Crimea.

    Oleksiy Danilov, Mr Zelensky’s national security adviser, called on the French president to halt his attempts to draw up peace deal terms with the help of China.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/25/russia-ukraine-war-emmanuel-macron-peace-plan-negotiations/

    On the side, James Cleverley's quite nuanced speech wrt China was interesting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPzJYT-SYX8
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,309
    Taz said:

    Inflation is coming down, it has come down slightly so far and is forecast to fall further and faster as the year goes on.

    It is forecast to fall to 2.9% by Q4 2023 on Trading Economics.

    Producer Price Inflation has been falling since last year.

    Of course these are forecasts but the trend is down and it appears we have peaked.

    The govt did not take nurses to court. They took the Union to court. They were right to do so as the action was not lawful.
    Another PB Tory who doesn't seem to realise the cumulative effect of inflation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794
    kamski said:

    The US have pretty much indicated they wouldn't support Ukraine going beyond the Feb 22 borders:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-goal-in-ukraine-drive-russians-back-to-pre-invasion-lines-blinken-says-11670351786

    “Our focus is on continuing to do what we’ve been doing, which is to make sure that Ukraine has in its hands what it needs to defend itself, what it needs to push back against the Russian aggression, to take back territory that’s been seized from it since Feb. 24, to make sure as well that it has the support economically and on a humanitarian basis to withstand what’s happening in the country every single day,” Mr. Blinken told the WSJ CEO Council Summit late Monday."

    This is from December, but it's about the clearest statement I can find from the US on how far their support would go.

    Yes. I have no recollection of Biden saying Sure, go ahead, take Crimea

    The endgame is what it always has been. Russia will have to accept bitter defeat in all its major war aims. The face saving exercise, to avoid further war or even nukes, will be international recognition of its ownership of Crimea (maybe after another referendum)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,264

    U.K. bottom of the table:

    Fascinating findings in the World Values Survey from @KingsCollegeLon The UK appears to be among the most tolerant countries.



    https://twitter.com/bbcmarkeaston/status/1651547334663184387

    Not sure about umarried couples living together. I mean, I've no objection to an unmarried couple next door, but once you get to unmarried couples living together I think of students and I see enough of them in my day job :open_mouth:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    kamski said:

    The US have pretty much indicated they wouldn't support Ukraine going beyond the Feb 22 borders:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-goal-in-ukraine-drive-russians-back-to-pre-invasion-lines-blinken-says-11670351786

    “Our focus is on continuing to do what we’ve been doing, which is to make sure that Ukraine has in its hands what it needs to defend itself, what it needs to push back against the Russian aggression, to take back territory that’s been seized from it since Feb. 24, to make sure as well that it has the support economically and on a humanitarian basis to withstand what’s happening in the country every single day,” Mr. Blinken told the WSJ CEO Council Summit late Monday."

    This is from December, but it's about the clearest statement I can find from the US on how far their support would go.

    A more recent link.

    I think studied ambiguity is probably the place the US wants perception of their attitude to the conflict to reside.

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3884764-why-biden-is-ambiguous-on-ukraines-crimea-question/
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    MattW said:

    The equivalence drawn I am seeing is France giving up Bordeaux to China, if he wants Ukraine to consider giving up Crimea.

    Oleksiy Danilov, Mr Zelensky’s national security adviser, called on the French president to halt his attempts to draw up peace deal terms with the help of China.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/25/russia-ukraine-war-emmanuel-macron-peace-plan-negotiations/

    On the side, James Cleverley's quite nuanced speech wrt China was interesting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPzJYT-SYX8
    Crimea is absolutely realistic and will stay part of Ukraine. You can't reward invasions based on ethnic revanchism. Putin has lost his chance of keeping it by his bloody and genocidal war. It is Alsace-Lorraine to the Ukrainians now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    Anatole Lieven, an expert in the field for some time, and someone who didn't necessarily call the beginning of the war correctly, has this to say which sounds very sensible. He is one commentator I have been following.

    "There is also the concern that Russia would escalate very seriously were Crimea to come under threat. So even if the Ukrainians manage to recover all or most of what they’ve lost since last year, at that point they will come under serious pressure from the West to seek a ceasefire.

    The argument in favour of reconquering Crimea often hinges on the belief that losing Crimea would bring down the regime of Vladimir Putin in Russia, or even the disintegration of Russia itself. It’s important to remember that, in warding off that possibility, Russia really might use nuclear weapons, so that itself is very dangerous scenario.

    For many people in the Biden administration and in most Western governments, talk of reconquering Crimea is more of a posture, which they privately accept is unlikely in the real world. But some Eastern European governments like those in Poland and the Baltic states, which wield enormous influence in NATO and increasingly in the EU, are much more determined to carry on this war “to the end”. And there are certain Western figures, like Annalena Baerbock, the foreign minister of Germany, who are very hardline on Crimea."


    https://unherd.com/thepost/the-truth-about-crimea/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    viewcode said:

    OH, SO WE CAN DO SPOILERS NOW CAN WE?

    (slams door in a huff)

    :)
    Well evidently it was not. So enjoy the film. And that packet of Swan Vestas on the table in the kitchen has nothing to do with anything.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794
    WillG said:

    Crimea is absolutely realistic and will stay part of Ukraine. You can't reward invasions based on ethnic revanchism. Putin has lost his chance of keeping it by his bloody and genocidal war. It is Alsace-Lorraine to the Ukrainians now.
    Alsace Lorraine led to WW1
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,785

    Wow.

    Elon Musk has been ordered to give a deposition in a lawsuit blaming Tesla's driverless technology for a fatal crash after the carmaker suggested his public statements about autopilot could have been deepfaked.

    Santa Clara County Superior Court Judge Evette D Pennypacker said she found Tesla's argument for why its billionaire chief executive should not testify “deeply troubling to the court”.

    The company had argued that it could not vouch for the authenticity of videotaped interviews which show Mr Musk pushing its driver-assistance technology, saying it is possible some of them were digitally altered.

    The judge wrote: “Their position is that because Mr Musk is famous and might be more of a target for deep fakes, his public statements are immune.

    “In other words, Mr Musk, and others in his position, can simply say whatever they like in the public domain, then hide behind the potential for their recorded statements being a deep fake to avoid taking ownership of what they did actually say and do.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/27/elon-musk-ordered-stop-deepfake-excuse-tesla-trial/

    Diane Abbott should try that defence in respect of her letter to The Observer.
  • viewcode said:

    OH, SO WE CAN DO SPOILERS NOW CAN WE?

    (slams door in a huff)

    :)
    We can.



  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    Cookie said:

    I honestly can't tell whether you're joking with your last para or not!
    My first para was more the joke. Back to the drawing board. :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546
    Scott_xP said:

    I thought that was your word for watching Star Trek
    Like Picard, he missed the carpet...
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    TOPPING said:

    Anatole Lieven, an expert in the field for some time, and someone who didn't necessarily call the beginning of the war correctly, has this to say which sounds very sensible. He is one commentator I have been following.

    "There is also the concern that Russia would escalate very seriously were Crimea to come under threat. So even if the Ukrainians manage to recover all or most of what they’ve lost since last year, at that point they will come under serious pressure from the West to seek a ceasefire.

    The argument in favour of reconquering Crimea often hinges on the belief that losing Crimea would bring down the regime of Vladimir Putin in Russia, or even the disintegration of Russia itself. It’s important to remember that, in warding off that possibility, Russia really might use nuclear weapons, so that itself is very dangerous scenario.

    For many people in the Biden administration and in most Western governments, talk of reconquering Crimea is more of a posture, which they privately accept is unlikely in the real world. But some Eastern European governments like those in Poland and the Baltic states, which wield enormous influence in NATO and increasingly in the EU, are much more determined to carry on this war “to the end”. And there are certain Western figures, like Annalena Baerbock, the foreign minister of Germany, who are very hardline on Crimea."


    https://unherd.com/thepost/the-truth-about-crimea/

    Does Ukraine even need to invade Crimea? If they advance as far as the Sea of Azov and then fully take out the Kerch bridge then Russia has no way of supplying Crimea. Would it be likely in that scenario that there would be a civil uprising in Crimea?
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  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    edited April 2023
    kinabalu said:

    My first para was more the joke. Back to the drawing board. :smile:
    Well your first para genuinely was funny. No quibbles there.

    If your last para isn't a joke - well, it's not clear to me that using seabirds as sex aids was ever really commonplace, even in St. Kilda. I'm not sure we can use this as any sort of lesson. It's just something that happens right at the end of the bell curve.

    Though there was the guy in Northumberland a couple of decades ago who got charged with indecent assualt of a dolphin, I suppose.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546
    Leon said:

    Alsace Lorraine led to WW1
    No it didn't, Bosnia did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546
    Scott_xP said:

    @emmadentcoad
    With huge regret. I have decided to resign from the Labour Party.

    I'm not leaving the party. The party has left me.

    Why did I hear colossal cheers from Labour HQ?
  • Scott_xP said:

    I thought that was your word for watching Star Trek
    I wasn’t the only one.

    Picard Season 3: Better than sex.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Alsace Lorraine led to WW1
    Because Germany stole it, just as Russia has stolen Crimea.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    Cookie said:

    But Deano's values strike me as the opposite of those of SKS.
    Obviously Corbyn's values were the opposite of Deano's, only much, much more so. But Deano, I would have thought, is no particular far of SKS's instinctive busybodying, nor of his instinctive cleaving to fashionable causes. What Deano wants is to get richer - which SKS seems to have no plan for - and for public services to work - which SKS seems to have no plan for.
    The electorate is much more complicated than one stereotype, of course. But if SKS is trying to appeal to that stereotype, well, I don't see what he's doing to do so.
    We must be following different Starmers. The one I'm seeing is busting a gut to appeal to Deano. Eg "cleaving to fashionable causes?" - hardly. He's dropping 'fashionable' (where by this you mean 'trendy left') causes as fast as a person possibly can without losing his balance and falling over.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,365
    kle4 said:

    There are, but whilst I think sarky comments and similar are unfair, and people clearly have overestimated the point at which Russia's rulers might go even more barmy, particularly re Crimea it's a scenario still quite possible to bear in mind.

    A long squeeze on Crimea seemed to be the plan before, and if the bridge were hit further and land bridge separated theres a lot of leverage.
    Indeed. It's perfectly feasible that Ukraine might be able to make Crimea incredibly difficult to hold, without even taking it. Cut off the land bridge, have the ferries under long-range artillery bombardment, and make Sebastopol unusable as a marine base due to threats against shipping. With the water supply cut off as well, Crimea would become a massive millstone around Russia's neck.

    Yes, bad things might happen in Russia if Crimea, or Putin, falls. But then again, better things might happen, whatever stronkiness asshats on DA's Telegram channels say. We cannot be responsible for what Russia does; we can only stand up for the values that say that what Russia is doing, and has been doing for years, is wrong.

    What happens politically in Russia is up to Russia. We have very little influence on that: and people who pretend otherwise are being silly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,115

    I wasn’t the only one.

    Picard Season 3: Better than sex.
    You're doing it wrong...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819
    edited April 2023
    kinabalu said:

    We must be following different Starmers. The one I'm seeing is busting a gut to appeal to Deano. Eg "cleaving to fashionable causes?" - hardly. He's dropping 'fashionable' (where by this you mean 'trendy left') causes as fast as a person possibly can without losing his balance and falling over.
    Is he? 99% of women don't have a penis? Kneeling for BLM? He's had so many opportunities to disavow that philosophical wing of the left and he never appears to take it.

    EDIT: Should add that to his credit while he may not be dropping the causes he is doing admirable work in offloading the crazier individuals when the opportunity presents itself.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Wow.

    Elon Musk has been ordered to give a deposition in a lawsuit blaming Tesla's driverless technology for a fatal crash after the carmaker suggested his public statements about autopilot could have been deepfaked.

    Santa Clara County Superior Court Judge Evette D Pennypacker said she found Tesla's argument for why its billionaire chief executive should not testify “deeply troubling to the court”.

    The company had argued that it could not vouch for the authenticity of videotaped interviews which show Mr Musk pushing its driver-assistance technology, saying it is possible some of them were digitally altered.

    The judge wrote: “Their position is that because Mr Musk is famous and might be more of a target for deep fakes, his public statements are immune.

    “In other words, Mr Musk, and others in his position, can simply say whatever they like in the public domain, then hide behind the potential for their recorded statements being a deep fake to avoid taking ownership of what they did actually say and do.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/04/27/elon-musk-ordered-stop-deepfake-excuse-tesla-trial/

    These sorts of issues will lead to a whole load of litigation in the coming years.

    Tesla’s lawyers risk setting a precedent here, for where the burden of proof should lie in the case of statements made by public figures.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,681

    Quite a lot for track bashers there.
    Liverpool docks to Edge Hill
    Hartford curve
    Denton Junction to Ashton Moss
    Brewery Sidings Curve

    6 hours 41 minutes
    https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H37271/2023-04-27/detailed#allox_id=0
    Yellow-pen-tastic.

    The "Quail Level" cranks would need to do it both ways of course.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794
    Re Ukraine, China might well become pivotal as we approach the endgame

    China does not want Russia to lose. It’s made that clear. The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing

    Nor does China want a massively destabilised Russia along a 3000km border to its north. Russian defeat would ensure that instability too

    So I suggest China would intervene to prevent Russia losing Crimea if it came to it. Providing arms and diplomatic pressure (and China has enormous trading leverage over half the world)

    This is not the west v Putin. This is the west v Putin and Putin’s best friend, which is a superpower on a par with the USA, at least economically
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Re Ukraine, China might well become pivotal as we approach the endgame

    China does not want Russia to lose. It’s made that clear. The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing

    Nor does China want a massively destabilised Russia along a 3000km border to its north. Russian defeat would ensure that instability too

    So I suggest China would intervene to prevent Russia losing Crimea if it came to it. Providing arms and diplomatic pressure (and China has enormous trading leverage over half the world)

    This is not the west v Putin. This is the west v Putin and Putin’s best friend, which is a superpower on a par with the USA, at least economically

    Getting the Russians out of Crimea, is a bigger version of getting the Russians out of Kherson - you cut off their limited supply lines, surround them with ‘friendly’ troops and ships, and then gradually starve them out.

    China isn’t silly enough to get involved directly and face western sanctions. They’re more worried about keeping the Americans interested in Ukraine rather than Taiwan.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794
    Sandpit said:

    Getting the Russians out of Crimea, is a bigger version of getting the Russians out of Kherson - you cut off their limited supply lines, surround them with ‘friendly’ troops and ships, and then gradually starve them out.

    China isn’t silly enough to get involved directly and face western sanctions. They’re more worried about keeping the Americans interested in Ukraine rather than Taiwan.
    Lol. How are we going to sanction China? It is responsible for more of world trade than any other nation. It has more trading power than the USA, and it is a more important trading partner for most of the world than the EU or the USA

    Biden has already choked off the export of high tech chips to China, that’s about as far as he can go without crippling the west’s economy more than he hurts China
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Re Ukraine, China might well become pivotal as we approach the endgame

    China does not want Russia to lose. It’s made that clear. The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing

    Nor does China want a massively destabilised Russia along a 3000km border to its north. Russian defeat would ensure that instability too

    So I suggest China would intervene to prevent Russia losing Crimea if it came to it. Providing arms and diplomatic pressure (and China has enormous trading leverage over half the world)

    This is not the west v Putin. This is the west v Putin and Putin’s best friend, which is a superpower on a par with the USA, at least economically

    China is pivotal, but you make a couple of statements there that I don't think follow. Going by your logic China would already be supplying Russia with massive quantities of war material - they aren't. So, why?

    One, because the West has leverage on China to persuade them not to do so. Two, because while China would quite like to see the West lose, they don't give two shits about Russia and have no intention of incurring any cost to help them out.

    China's interests in, for example, Taiwan, are much more important - this is one reason why they've slapped down Russia's nuclear rhetoric, and they've made the use of NATO weapons on targets in Russia a red line for them.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,840
    Leon said:

    Re Ukraine, China might well become pivotal as we approach the endgame

    China does not want Russia to lose. It’s made that clear. The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing

    Nor does China want a massively destabilised Russia along a 3000km border to its north. Russian defeat would ensure that instability too

    So I suggest China would intervene to prevent Russia losing Crimea if it came to it. Providing arms and diplomatic pressure (and China has enormous trading leverage over half the world)

    This is not the west v Putin. This is the west v Putin and Putin’s best friend, which is a superpower on a par with the USA, at least economically

    I think we might increasingly see China playing both sides. They want Russia to be manageably weak and if they could gain some influence in Ukraine it would be to their advantage.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,671
    edited April 2023
    OMG.

    Luke Cowan-Dickie was tossed into the “drunk tank” in Montpellier after being detained by police in the early hours of Wednesday morning. The England hooker was in France to undergo a medical with the Top 14 club, who have concerns over a neck injury that has left him in doubt for the World Cup.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/luke-cowan-dickie-thrown-in-drunk-tank-after-incident-in-montpellier-kz3rb7hct
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    edited April 2023
    Cookie said:

    Is he? 99% of women don't have a penis? Kneeling for BLM? He's had so many opportunities to disavow that philosophical wing of the left and he never appears to take it.

    EDIT: Should add that to his credit while he may not be dropping the causes he is doing admirable work in offloading the crazier individuals when the opportunity presents itself.
    Again I simply don't recognize reality there. He's dropped the longstanding commitment to Trans people for gender recognition reform. Sold them out, some say.

    And that single taking-the-knee photo with Ange at the height of the BLM movement (when it was mainstream to do so to show opposition to racism) is hardly a sign he's in the clutches of the radical identitarian left!

    But anyway, what does this matter - you're not in a million years voting Labour, are you. You are not Deano. You're a creature of the right as much as I am of the left. Deano is neither. He's an apolitical floater.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,365
    Leon said:

    Re Ukraine, China might well become pivotal as we approach the endgame

    China does not want Russia to lose. It’s made that clear. The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing

    Nor does China want a massively destabilised Russia along a 3000km border to its north. Russian defeat would ensure that instability too

    So I suggest China would intervene to prevent Russia losing Crimea if it came to it. Providing arms and diplomatic pressure (and China has enormous trading leverage over half the world)

    This is not the west v Putin. This is the west v Putin and Putin’s best friend, which is a superpower on a par with the USA, at least economically

    "The loss of Crimea would be Russia losing"

    Strategically, Russia has already lost. In my sitting-on-sofa and totally non-expert way, I'm now willing to call it. There's no way Russia comes out of this a stronger and stronkier country than it was before Putin started his madness. If their winter offensive had made progress; then there was a smidgen of a way for them to gain a limited strategic success. But not now; even if the Ukrainian offensive fails.

    Russia is poorer financially; its military has been hollowed out. It has lost lots of friends and trading partners; and the trading partners it has got are definitely the senior partners in the trade. It's demographic problem has got *much* worse.

    Losing Crimea would be a tiny strategic loss on top of the massive strategic loss it has already suffered, and one that is deepening every day.

    And a reminder; we did not do this to Russia. Russia did it to itself.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    ydoethur said:

    No it didn't, Bosnia did.
    I’m with Leon in this. First World War was follow up to Germany beating napoleon France in 1870 war, took France a while to sign UK and Russia up on their side, it made Germany conscious of losing the arms race so they dusted off a plan to go for it before the odds went against them.

    A different outcome may have hinged on how quickly Germany could take Paris and French surrender in first month, and a war we think of as trenches for years was fluid in that first month, Germany not far from Paris.

    I’m sure I read somewhere the smoking gun fact proving Leon’s and my argument, the Serb assassin had been trained and armed by France. But I can’t find it.

    Crimea War was definitely result of naughty France stirring it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,365

    China is pivotal, but you make a couple of statements there that I don't think follow. Going by your logic China would already be supplying Russia with massive quantities of war material - they aren't. So, why?

    One, because the West has leverage on China to persuade them not to do so. Two, because while China would quite like to see the West lose, they don't give two shits about Russia and have no intention of incurring any cost to help them out.

    China's interests in, for example, Taiwan, are much more important - this is one reason why they've slapped down Russia's nuclear rhetoric, and they've made the use of NATO weapons on targets in Russia a red line for them.
    Militarily, this war has been problematic for China as well. Many of their weapons are fully or loosely based on Russian designs and theories, and those have been shown to perform poorly. Worse, the 'West' was on a long military draw-down, reducing stocks of everything. Putin's madness has reversed that, and that makes any play for Taiwan more problematic.

    Personally, I think China will make a play for a northern resource area, rather than Taiwan. The west won't intervene, aside from tut-tutting, and it'd be easy for China to play the 'oppressed brothers' card.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,840

    I’m sure I read somewhere the smoking gun fact proving Leon’s and my argument, the Serb assassin had been trained and armed by France. But I can’t find it.

    Crimea War was definitely result of naughty France stirring it.

    You may be thinking of Christopher Clark's book?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,264
    edited April 2023

    Yellow-pen-tastic.

    The "Quail Level" cranks would need to do it both ways of course.
    Surely someone from Just Stop OilCoal will outbid everyone and use the journey to stop the train* getting to it's destination.

    If they still carry coal. If not then someone from Just Stop Greenwashing By Burning Biomass of Dubious Credentials will presumably do it instead.

    I had a friend who was part of a previous stop Drax train effort. They all later had their convictions quashed as part of the undercover police scandal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,309

    Some bloke shot an ostrich called Archie Duke and that led to WWI.
    I thought someone shot Rio Ferdinand and that's what led to WW1
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    Leon said:

    This is a vile slander against Dave Lee of Roker Avenue, Sunderland. It might have been vaginal
    Your stalker might remember the days when PB had a biology teacher. Seagulls are birds FFS they don't have vaginas!! They have a combined, all-in-one arrangement called a [damn; forgotten the word and I'm not googling it] so it's probably not buggery either, or it's both. Tbh the whole sex with seagulls thing sounds biologically implausible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794

    China is pivotal, but you make a couple of statements there that I don't think follow. Going by your logic China would already be supplying Russia with massive quantities of war material - they aren't. So, why?

    One, because the West has leverage on China to persuade them not to do so. Two, because while China would quite like to see the West lose, they don't give two shits about Russia and have no intention of incurring any cost to help them out.

    China's interests in, for example, Taiwan, are much more important - this is one reason why they've slapped down Russia's nuclear rhetoric, and they've made the use of NATO weapons on targets in Russia a red line for them.
    China loses face if Putin is defeated. The Chinese are, to put it mildly, unkeen on losing face

    The ideal outcome for China is a weakened but ultimately undefeated Russia evermore reliant on China, but a Russia still potent enough to distract the West, as China bids for Taiwan. So a stalemate around about where we are now would suit China excellently

    That’s another reason I reckon an armistice this will arrive this year, with the front lines not dissimilar to what we see today, probably after both sides have tried and failed to significantly alter the facts on the ground

    And if Ukraine launches a brilliant spring offensive and sweeps Russia out of Crimea and Donbas then fair play to them and Slava Ukraine!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,819

    Your stalker might remember the days when PB had a biology teacher. Seagulls are birds FFS they don't have vaginas!! They have a combined, all-in-one arrangement called a [damn; forgotten the word and I'm not googling it] so it's probably not buggery either, or it's both. Tbh the whole sex with seagulls thing sounds biologically implausible.
    A cloaca? It's not the first time that particular orifice has been raised today.
    And yes, I agree, it sounds unlikely. Perhaps what went on was some sort of frottage.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    WillG said:

    Because Germany stole it, just as Russia has stolen Crimea.
    “Because Germany stole it, just as Russia has stolen Crimea.”

    I think you could be spot on with that comparison. Two different countries, classrooms of school children in both countries being shown different maps. Because of historical ties to the same thing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Russia is resource rich and cash/population poor. China may well be looking at northeast Russia and not crying too many tears if Russia looks, and is, very weak.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,365
    Off-topic:

    I got covid about a month ago (just as the Easter holidays began). I was +ve for a week, but it was followed by a wracking cough, and now that's mostly gone, I'm finding it relatively hard to get running even 10K again.

    It's bu**ered my lungs worse than a seagull who's had acquaintance with Dave Lee of Roker Avenue, Sunderland.

    I've gone from running marathons to barely being able to run 10K.

    :(
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,155

    Your stalker might remember the days when PB had a biology teacher. Seagulls are birds FFS they don't have vaginas!! They have a combined, all-in-one arrangement called a [damn; forgotten the word and I'm not googling it] so it's probably not buggery either, or it's both. Tbh the whole sex with seagulls thing sounds biologically implausible.
    The name of the all-in-one orifice is kept under a cloaca secrecy which is why you can’t name it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    Leon said:

    China loses face if Putin is defeated. The Chinese are, to put it mildly, unkeen on losing face

    The ideal outcome for China is a weakened but ultimately undefeated Russia evermore reliant on China, but a Russia still potent enough to distract the West, as China bids for Taiwan. So a stalemate around about where we are now would suit China excellently

    That’s another reason I reckon an armistice this will arrive this year, with the front lines not dissimilar to what we see today, probably after both sides have tried and failed to significantly alter the facts on the ground

    And if Ukraine launches a brilliant spring offensive and sweeps Russia out of Crimea and Donbas then fair play to them and Slava Ukraine!
    I reckon that in many respects China wins either way.

    If Russia gets to hold onto territory that it has gained by force of arms then the West is weakened.

    If Russia is pushed out of Ukraine then the principle of territorial integrity is strengthened. This is key for China over Taiwan, because most countries recognise Taiwan as part of China and not as an independent country.

    If they intervene decisively on Russia's side - and Russia still loses - then they incur massive costs from the West and lose a massive amount of face, and for what? What difference would it make to them if Russia were to take Kramatorsk, or lose Svatove?

    So I think that China can stand aside.

    Where China gets provoked is if the West becomes overconfident and tries to invite the independence of Chechnya, or allow its weapons to be used to hit targets in Russia proper.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    A

    Militarily, this war has been problematic for China as well. Many of their weapons are fully or loosely based on Russian designs and theories, and those have been shown to perform poorly. Worse, the 'West' was on a long military draw-down, reducing stocks of everything. Putin's madness has reversed that, and that makes any play for Taiwan more problematic.

    Personally, I think China will make a play for a northern resource area, rather than Taiwan. The west won't intervene, aside from tut-tutting, and it'd be easy for China to play the 'oppressed brothers' card.
    The resemblance to the Korean War, which halted headlong US disarmament, is of note.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Mr. Jessop, sorry to hear that. Hopefully you can get yourself back to marathon level. Just don't overdo it as you recover.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794

    Russia is resource rich and cash/population poor. China may well be looking at northeast Russia and not crying too many tears if Russia looks, and is, very weak.

    The idea China is going to invade and conquer chunks of Siberia is delusional

    Russia as an economic vassal state of China, equally united against the West, is the optimum for them

    Because at some point China really IS going to take on Taiwan, and having a supportive Russia at its back will be advantageous
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    Leon said:

    Yes. I have no recollection of Biden saying Sure, go ahead, take Crimea

    The endgame is what it always has been. Russia will have to accept bitter defeat in all its major war aims. The face saving exercise, to avoid further war or even nukes, will be international recognition of its ownership of Crimea (maybe after another referendum)
    The face-saving exercise would be to let Russia buy Crimea. The USA bought some of its own states so is familiar with the concept. Russia has hundreds of billions of dollars it cannot spend while sanctions remain. Ukraine needs the money to rebuild everything Russia's blown up, and possibly to repay America if it turns out those donated guns were not gifts (as for us in ww2).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,840

    Personally, I think China will make a play for a northern resource area, rather than Taiwan. The west won't intervene, aside from tut-tutting, and it'd be easy for China to play the 'oppressed brothers' card.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Zelensky mentioned that idea when he spoke to Xi Jinping.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,546

    I’m with Leon in this. First World War was follow up to Germany beating napoleon France in 1870 war, took France a while to sign UK and Russia up on their side, it made Germany conscious of losing the arms race so they dusted off a plan to go for it before the odds went against them.

    A different outcome may have hinged on how quickly Germany could take Paris and French surrender in first month, and a war we think of as trenches for years was fluid in that first month, Germany not far from Paris.

    I’m sure I read somewhere the smoking gun fact proving Leon’s and my argument, the Serb assassin had been trained and armed by France. But I can’t find it.

    Crimea War was definitely result of naughty France stirring it.
    You're both still wrong. The ultimate cause of WW1 were Austrian and German ambitions to expand their empires in Eastern Europe. Alsace Lorraine was - at most - a very minor part of that.

    It was what persuaded France and Russia they had shared strategic aims, which was a different matter but that was a response to the causes, not one of them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    edited April 2023

    Russia is resource rich and cash/population poor. China may well be looking at northeast Russia and not crying too many tears if Russia looks, and is, very weak.

    I've poured scorn on the idea of Russia using nuclear weapons to defend territory it has invaded, but if they weren't prepared to use them to defend their internationally recognised borders then there's not much point in having them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    ydoethur said:

    You're both still wrong. The ultimate cause of WW1 were Austrian and German ambitions to expand their empires in Eastern Europe. Alsace Lorraine was - at most - a very minor part of that.

    It was what persuaded France and Russia they had shared strategic aims, which was a different matter but that was a response to the causes, not one of them.
    I rather thought it was down to some idiots in Autro-Hungary trying to maintain the Empire by grabbing the opportunity to crush Serbia.

    The French were intent on following the rules of Revanche Club.

    1) “N’en parlez jamais; pensez y toujours.”
    2) Germany must be allowed to start the next war, since France needs allies.
    3) Don't start the war, but be ready. The Germans will start the next war, don't worry about that.
  • I wouldn't be surprised if Zelensky mentioned that idea when he spoke to Xi Jinping.
    It is worth reading Colin Thurbon 'The Amur River' on this.

    He makes the point that, not only does China regarding much of the land in Siberia that was rightfully theirs but that Russia massacres large numbers of Chinese there which hasn't been forgotten.

    It's also interesting that China has been building up its infrastructure to the border including links but Russia has done all it can to minimise the cross-boarding transportation capabilities.

    If it wasn't for the nukes, and that China knows the USSR once proposed to the US that they should both nuke China, I wouldn't be surprised if Xi made a grab.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,365

    I've poured scorn on the idea of Russia using nuclear weapons to defend territory it has invaded, but if they weren't prepared to use them to defend their internationally recognised borders then there's not much point in having them.
    For China, it might be an easier bet than Taiwan, especially in the long-term. Take lessons out of Putin's book and interfere in those areas politically (as some say they are already doing).

    But yes, nukes are an issue. But Moscow are well aware that China is also nuclear-capable.

    I hope China does neither Russia or Taiwan. Neither is good for the world.

    But I reckon what's happened in the last 15 months makes a Taiwanese adventure from China less likely, as it's made the possibility and consequences of failure much more real.
  • O/T, last two polls for the Democrat nomination have had RFK up to 19-21%.

    He obviously won't win but that's a large progress from the 10-14% of a few weeks ago. While he's anti-vax, he is also anti-corporate establishment (see the argument breaking out at the moment over an American Prospect article saying Tucker Carlson had some good ideas).

    I think Joe needs some of his diehard supporters on here who claim he's the most underrated President to get his numbers up...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    It is worth reading Colin Thurbon 'The Amur River' on this.

    He makes the point that, not only does China regarding much of the land in Siberia that was rightfully theirs but that Russia massacres large numbers of Chinese there which hasn't been forgotten.

    It's also interesting that China has been building up its infrastructure to the border including links but Russia has done all it can to minimise the cross-boarding transportation capabilities.

    If it wasn't for the nukes, and that China knows the USSR once proposed to the US that they should both nuke China, I wouldn't be surprised if Xi made a grab.
    And yet China has settled its border disputes with Russia, unlike with its other neighbours.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794
    ydoethur said:

    You're both still wrong. The ultimate cause of WW1 were Austrian and German ambitions to expand their empires in Eastern Europe. Alsace Lorraine was - at most - a very minor part of that.

    It was what persuaded France and Russia they had shared strategic aims, which was a different matter but that was a response to the causes, not one of them.
    I wasn’t claiming “Alsace Loraine” was the cause of WW1, I was pointing out it that it an unfortunate example to choose as a comparison to Crimea, given what eventually happened after that relative skirmish in 1871
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,794

    For China, it might be an easier bet than Taiwan, especially in the long-term. Take lessons out of Putin's book and interfere in those areas politically (as some say they are already doing).

    But yes, nukes are an issue. But Moscow are well aware that China is also nuclear-capable.

    I hope China does neither Russia or Taiwan. Neither is good for the world.

    But I reckon what's happened in the last 15 months makes a Taiwanese adventure from China less likely, as it's made the possibility and consequences of failure much more real.
    China is absolutely dedicated to reclaiming Taiwan and I suspect that many taiwanese, deep down, are resigned to its happening eventually
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Mr. Password, would China have to invade? It could simply propose one-sided agreements to get what they want without formally taking territory. Russia needs them more than the Chinese needs the Russians.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,322

    I rather thought it was down to some idiots in Autro-Hungary trying to maintain the Empire by grabbing the opportunity to crush Serbia.

    The French were intent on following the rules of Revanche Club.

    1) “N’en parlez jamais; pensez y toujours.”
    2) Germany must be allowed to start the next war, since France needs allies.
    3) Don't start the war, but be ready. The Germans will start the next war, don't worry about that.
    I blame the French involvement in the Thirty Years War, which was when they first stole Alsace.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    edited April 2023

    O/T, last two polls for the Democrat nomination have had RFK up to 19-21%.

    He obviously won't win but that's a large progress from the 10-14% of a few weeks ago. While he's anti-vax, he is also anti-corporate establishment (see the argument breaking out at the moment over an American Prospect article saying Tucker Carlson had some good ideas).

    I think Joe needs some of his diehard supporters on here who claim he's the most underrated President to get his numbers up...

    A notably dim post as such supporters on PB are (typically) British and therefore can't get Joe's numbers up no matter how much we rate him. Duh!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Leon said:

    And so it begins. The end of truth. Welcome to the deepfake era

    Everybody will now be able to deny everything, even if it is filmed and recorded. I have no fucking clue how we deal with that
    Last year, as I recall, PB was full of odes of love for that great genius and cutting-edge entrepreneur extraordinaire, Elon Musk.

    Not so much these days, eh?

    Read interesting story recently, about the mega-Musk rocket that blasted off, then blasted itself.

    Seems that the Musk-eteers submitted enviro impact "statements" that were a wee bit inadequate. And "planning" that did NOT provide for reasonable provision for the mega-thrust.

    With result that Port Isabel, Texas was/is covered by a HUGE amount of dust, rocks, boulders that came raining down post-launch:

    NYT ($) - SpaceX’s Starship Kicked Up a Dust Cloud, Leaving Texans With a Mess
    Residents of Port Isabel said that their city was covered in grime following SpaceX’s rocket launch on Thursday. The city said there was no “immediate concern for people’s health.”

    SSI - Muskmelon-maniacs, please explain?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,480
    Leon said:

    China is absolutely dedicated to reclaiming Taiwan and I suspect that many taiwanese, deep down, are resigned to its happening eventually
    I'm not sure that either side would ever want a Chinese on Chinese war.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,189
    edited April 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Why did I hear colossal cheers from Labour HQ?
    It's an odd one because Emma Dent-Coad seems to have resigned over her local party's (or group's) refusal to criticise Starmer for accepting "hospitality". Would Labour HQ want that publicised? Anyway, EDC's statement can be read at:-

    When a million people protested against the Iraq War, no one was suspended or expelled from the Labour Party. Our MP at the time was Karen Buck, and I know she had a difficult conversation with Blair, but he didn’t force her out.
    https://labourhub.org.uk/2023/04/27/not-welcome-here/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    edited April 2023
    Nigelb said:

    That's very much what they have in mind when talking about stifling innovation.

    I think the CMA decision essentially correct - big tech is very fond of establishing effective monopolies on market segments, and doing so when that segment is at early stages of development is the best way to do it.

    Of course if the US and EU disagree with us, it's a bit awkward.
    "Microsoft boss expresses disappointment about the UK still not being a soft touch for unscrupulous monopolists flogging crap products"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,210
    Leon said:

    China loses face if Putin is defeated. The Chinese are, to put it mildly, unkeen on losing face

    The ideal outcome for China is a weakened but ultimately undefeated Russia evermore reliant on China, but a Russia still potent enough to distract the West, as China bids for Taiwan. So a stalemate around about where we are now would suit China excellently

    That’s another reason I reckon an armistice this will arrive this year, with the front lines not dissimilar to what we see today, probably after both sides have tried and failed to significantly alter the facts on the ground

    And if Ukraine launches a brilliant spring offensive and sweeps Russia out of Crimea and Donbas then fair play to them and Slava Ukraine!
    China has been quite careful, I think, not to tie itself to Putin.
    Leon said:

    China is absolutely dedicated to reclaiming Taiwan and I suspect that many taiwanese, deep down, are resigned to its happening eventually
    A few years ago, a friend, who was writing code for defence firm, was asked to do some investigative work for a Taiwanese sale.

    The Taiwanese wanted a mode for a point defence AA gun system, where it would track falling paratroops, and rather than blasting away, as it would at missiles, fire 1-2 rounds per paratrooper, and then move to the next target.

    As part of this, he met some Taiwanese military and civilian government people. He was struck by how unified and focused they were on a requirement to brutally slaughter a part of a Chinese invasion force.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,320
    Leon said:

    China is absolutely dedicated to reclaiming Taiwan and I suspect that many taiwanese, deep down, are resigned to its happening eventually
    While Zelensky was slurping Xi's fragrant balls on the phone he said he was on board with the "One China" policy so he's resigned to it.
This discussion has been closed.