As they say the “optics” don’t look good – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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It's not so much vote for Christmas as not vote against Christmas. Short of Truss resigning the government to the King, we're into VONC territory.ping said:
Yeah.Nigelb said:
I'd say it's 50/50 at this point.MarqueeMark said:
If there are 120 Tory MPs prepared to inflict another membership vote on the Party, then it is best the MPs are wiped away and replaced in a decade or more.IanB2 said:
Currently that’s the informal threshold set by Brady that will trigger the committee reviewing the rules. You’re right that this may also become the nomination threshold, I guess.TheScreamingEagles said:
That said, despite all that has passed so far, I still don't see a General Election resulting from the current chaos. Peer over the edge, pause, step back to "regroup" under a safer pair of hands.
Your case is a rational one, but they are no longer an entirely rational party.
Brexit has wrought divisions which aren't easily appreciated by those of us who are fundamentally pragmatists. I'm not arguing about the issue itself, as that's irrelevant for what's going on now. It's a matter of factional identity, and for large numbers of MPs that has come to supersede any loyalty to the party.
It's a bit like the Corn Laws. Not one person in ten who knows that split the Tory party has any clear idea now what the argument was all about.
50/50 on an election before 2024 feels about right. If anything, perhaps undercooking it a bit. Somewhere between 50% & 66% maybe?
The 76 Majority, or whatever it is now, is illusory. That was a now-irrelevant, get-brexit-done, anti-Corbyn, fantasy economics coalition that Boris was able to pull off with his incredible charisma.
There’s no positive majority among the blues for anything, right now. The only question left is whether the turkeys will vote for Christmas.
As soon as Suella published her resignation letter, I laid the “2024 or later election” at 1.39 (72%). Currently trading at 1.62/1.74, although pathetic liquidity.
Should be evens, minimum, imo.
So the question is how Tory MPs busy fighting each other respond to such a thing. The debate would be fascinating as "at least we're better than Labour" is all they have.
I assume the first time out they vote confidence in the government, cheer, and then immediately resume their efforts to bring down the government. It's the subsequent VONC's that follow that may see them collapse.
Truss didn't vote for her own government confidence motion last night. So anything is possible0 -
To be fair, Rees-Mogg thinks a “perfectly normal discussion” is to ask his wet-nurse for “the other one”.ydoethur said:
So it did happen, then?Carnyx said:GRaun feed:
'The business secretary, Jacob Rees-Mogg, has denied Tory MPs were bullied and manhandled at last night’s fracking vote.
Rees-Mogg said “to characterise it as bullying is mistaken” and that a “perfectly normal discussion” had taken place with some MPs “who weren’t sure whether it was a confidence vote or not”, the Times reports.
The only physical contact was “a female affectionately patting somebody on the back”, he said.
He added that it would be “quite improper to manhandle people in the division lobby”.'
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OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)1 -
Who was it on here a few days ago who said that their friends wouldn't pick a US holiday in a blue state because of crime levels?DecrepiterJohnL said:
This started with GHW Bush, or a little before. Thanks primarily to Fox News, each side in America has its own facts. Not opinions, facts. This is now exacerbated by the web, where those woke internet giants, Twitter and Youtube, amplify right wing material.Alistair said:Classic "Facts don't care about your feelings moment" in American politics
https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1582894307169951744
Complete alternative reality moment by the GOP candidate.
It sounded like BS to me anyway, most of my friends wouldn't be able reliably say whether a given state is red or blue and don't choose to go to the US to avoid crime.3 -
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.0 -
Luckily Scotland has banned fracking. England can wreck their country if they wish.JosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.1 -
TSE has a bet on sub 15% and I think he will collect.Gardenwalker said:What chance of the Tories going serially sub 20%?
I think we had one 19% last week. Could we see a sub 15%
I hope so.
Redfield have already shown 19% and they have a slight Tory lean. The latest fiasco has yet to register. People Polling would be favorites to bring TSE's money home but I doubt they will be the only ones going that low. We may even see single figures if Truss hangs around much longer.
By the way, when does PB's favorite Shrinking Violet take over from Mike? Hope it's soon. We need things to quieten down a bit.0 -
Star, lettuce
Mail, shouting match
i, chaos
Mirror, utter chaos
Sun, broken
Express, scuffle
Times, turmoil
Guardian, brink
First prize, Metro, Suelluva mess!
Has anyone spotted Douglas Ross?0 -
Allegedly heard in a working class chippy.Benpointer said:
Who was it on here a few days ago who said that their friends wouldn't pick a US holiday in a blue state because of crime levels?DecrepiterJohnL said:
This started with GHW Bush, or a little before. Thanks primarily to Fox News, each side in America has its own facts. Not opinions, facts. This is now exacerbated by the web, where those woke internet giants, Twitter and Youtube, amplify right wing material.Alistair said:Classic "Facts don't care about your feelings moment" in American politics
https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1582894307169951744
Complete alternative reality moment by the GOP candidate.
It sounded like BS to me anyway, most of my friends wouldn't be able reliably say whether a given state is red or blue and don't choose to go to the US to avoid crime.
Probably uttered by an Albanian taxi driver.0 -
Some people don't come into London because of knife crime, despite being two or three generations past the demographics where that is an issue. People are not good at understanding risk but very good at understanding fear.Benpointer said:
Who was it on here a few days ago who said that their friends wouldn't pick a US holiday in a blue state because of crime levels?DecrepiterJohnL said:
This started with GHW Bush, or a little before. Thanks primarily to Fox News, each side in America has its own facts. Not opinions, facts. This is now exacerbated by the web, where those woke internet giants, Twitter and Youtube, amplify right wing material.Alistair said:Classic "Facts don't care about your feelings moment" in American politics
https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1582894307169951744
Complete alternative reality moment by the GOP candidate.
It sounded like BS to me anyway, most of my friends wouldn't be able reliably say whether a given state is red or blue and don't choose to go to the US to avoid crime.1 -
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?0 -
Okaaaay...Gardenwalker said:
To be fair, Rees-Mogg thinks a “perfectly normal discussion” is to ask his wet-nurse for “the other one”.ydoethur said:
So it did happen, then?Carnyx said:GRaun feed:
'The business secretary, Jacob Rees-Mogg, has denied Tory MPs were bullied and manhandled at last night’s fracking vote.
Rees-Mogg said “to characterise it as bullying is mistaken” and that a “perfectly normal discussion” had taken place with some MPs “who weren’t sure whether it was a confidence vote or not”, the Times reports.
The only physical contact was “a female affectionately patting somebody on the back”, he said.
He added that it would be “quite improper to manhandle people in the division lobby”.'
May I ask if his wife is involved in these conversations?0 -
One member of 1922 executive tells me “odds are against” Liz Truss surviving the day as PM.
Committee is expected to meet later to discuss the leadership crisis.
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/15830018555543674881 -
Has Thérèse Coffey gone yet?0
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By then the Conservative brand will be trashed beyond repair.HYUFD said:
Given Sunak likely replaces Truss before Christmas it will, they will still lose but Sunak will save enough seats to get them to 200 to 250 MPsBig_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningHYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.
The conservative party will not even be the opposition, and I doubt anyone knows who will lead the 4 or even 2 remaining conservative mps
Regroup and red are will be the only option for the right and FPTP makes that a hard slog.0 -
I would be surprised if it didn't happen. On any normal day inflation up to 10.1% would be the biggest story, and that's what people are noticing, yet the government, even under the steadying influence of Hunt, had two major crises yesterday that had nothing to do with inflation.Gardenwalker said:What chance of the Tories going serially sub 20%?
I think we had one 19% last week. Could we see a sub 15%?
I hope so.
Frost and Braverman - the right is clearly turning against Truss.1 -
Certainly not. That would be “entirely improper”. However, she does get to burp him afterwards.ydoethur said:
Okaaaay...Gardenwalker said:
To be fair, Rees-Mogg thinks a “perfectly normal discussion” is to ask his wet-nurse for “the other one”.ydoethur said:
So it did happen, then?Carnyx said:GRaun feed:
'The business secretary, Jacob Rees-Mogg, has denied Tory MPs were bullied and manhandled at last night’s fracking vote.
Rees-Mogg said “to characterise it as bullying is mistaken” and that a “perfectly normal discussion” had taken place with some MPs “who weren’t sure whether it was a confidence vote or not”, the Times reports.
The only physical contact was “a female affectionately patting somebody on the back”, he said.
He added that it would be “quite improper to manhandle people in the division lobby”.'
May I ask if his wife is involved in these conversations?
1 -
It should be remembered that Corbyn had something like a two thirds vote of no confidence from his own MPs but managed to carry on for a few years because of the lack of a mechanism to get rid of him1
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Depends how Labour governs, if it manages the economy reasonably well the Conservatives will be out for over a decade like the New Labour years.Benpointer said:
By then the Conservative brand will be trashed beyond repair.HYUFD said:
Given Sunak likely replaces Truss before Christmas it will, they will still lose but Sunak will save enough seats to get them to 200 to 250 MPsBig_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningHYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.
The conservative party will not even be the opposition, and I doubt anyone knows who will lead the 4 or even 2 remaining conservative mps
Regroup and red are will be the only option for the right and FPTP makes that a hard slog.
If they manage the economy as badly as 1970s Labour the opposition will quickly revive0 -
Mr. JohnL, I do worry that there might be a tug of war to either make history into "Gosh, everything was super" versus "Evil Britons atone".
The recent nonsense around a film... the Woman King, I think, shows that some people are far from colourblind when it comes to addressing history.
I was also surprised that a certain poet claims black people were in the UK with the Romans. Entirely possible in very low numbers but the difficulty of ancient travel between the sub-Saharan part of Africa and Europe I find it hard to believe the numbers were more than minimal. Rome's territory included north Africa but that's not the same as including black Africa (sub-Saharan part). Liby-Phoenicians and Numidians were not black.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-632915270 -
Well given that I live within my means and have improved my own energy usage efficiency this year I can remove myself from the 'we'.Gardenwalker said:
Truss regards energy efficiency as communism, or something. So when you say “we”, presumably you are talking about her and yourself.another_richard said:
I've no idea how much we are investing in energy production and development or how much we should be doing.maxh said:
That’s what I’m arguing for. But I fear at the moment we are doing the former in place of doing the latter at the scale we need. We should incentivise investment in alternatives far more than we are. It will pay itself back in droves.another_richard said:
There's no reason why we cannot both extract as much oil and gas from the North Sea and invest in alternative sources of energy.maxh said:
As an avowed environmentalist I reluctantly agree with this IFF combined with a coherent medium term plan to get out of gas and oil much faster than currently planned.DavidL said:
I agree. The real question about fracking is whether our geology is actually suitable for economic extraction. If it is we should do it, just as we should be squeezing what we can from the North Sea, whatever those idiots on the QEII bridge think. The alternative is that we import the gas or oil from other places we would really rather notJosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.
do business with (and our trade deficit gets even worse).
The lack of coherence about what follows it tops the scales back against it, currently, imo. We are just postponing a problem (decarbonising energy) which, the earlier we grapple with, the more we will benefit from (eg growth from expertise in alternative sources of energy)
But there's many billions being invested in energy consumption.
Which is indicative of the underlying problem in this country - we think consumption is far more important than production and that consumption must be protected while production has to look after itself.
But I rather suspect that there are more people in this country who would rather have £100 off their energy bills this year than energy security in the future.0 -
Sudanese in Egypt?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. JohnL, I do worry that there might be a tug of war to either make history into "Gosh, everything was super" versus "Evil Britons atone".
The recent nonsense around a film... the Woman King, I think, shows that some people are far from colourblind when it comes to addressing history.
I was also surprised that a certain poet claims black people were in the UK with the Romans. Entirely possible in very low numbers but the difficulty of ancient travel between the sub-Saharan part of Africa and Europe I find it hard to believe the numbers were more than minimal. Rome's territory included north Africa but that's not the same as including black Africa (sub-Saharan part). Liby-Phoenicians and Numidians were not black.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-632915270 -
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.2 -
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.0 -
Mike needs to go on holiday right now, so TSE can take over for a while and peace and stability will resume.Roger said:
'The optics don't look good....'
That's up there with Hirohito's 'The war's developed not particularly to Japan's advantage.....'1 -
Well it went to the membership (with Owen Smith, remember him?) and he won. I doubt the same would be the case now with Truss and the Tory membership.Roger said:It should be remembered that Corbyn had something like a two thirds vote of no confidence from his own MPs but managed to carry on for a few years because of the lack of a mechanism to get rid of him
1 -
Different for a leader of the opposition. They don't need to do so much. Truss will have to pass a budget.Roger said:It should be remembered that Corbyn had something like a two thirds vote of no confidence from his own MPs but managed to carry on for a few years because of the lack of a mechanism to get rid of him
1 -
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
Can't ban the allocation of licences - reserved power. Hence (I assume) the SNP MPs voting last night. But the SNP has de facto banned it under planning and environment powers.malcolmg said:
Luckily Scotland has banned fracking. England can wreck their country if they wish.JosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.0 -
Are you Ready for Rosindell?OnlyLivingBoy said:
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.2 -
Paywall by-pass installed....Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/0 -
Has Grant Shapps resigned yet?0
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Mr. Carnyx, some, perhaps. But how many of those were citizens (necessary, pre-Caracalla, I think, to join a legion) or willing to join an auxiliary force, and then were also sent to Britain? We did have a relatively high number of legions, but some troop types (camelry being an example) were not exactly well-suited for the climate.
But there can be tendency for some to try and assume that diversity was always a thing and cosmopolitanism was the norm through history (the highly accurate videogame Kingdom Come Deliverance, set in Bohemia, had some numpties complaining everyone was white).
In major cities this was true to a greater extent, but in most places it was far from the case, especially in the ancient world.0 -
Who are your top (or bottom) three?OnlyLivingBoy said:
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.0 -
To be fair, one must imagine the trauma of a certain PBer when he went to school and learnt about Charles 1 pushing his luck and his divine right where it didn't belong, and getting a rather severe haircut.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?1 -
I can quite honestly see a scenario where Mrs Brady tells Liz the game is up today but she decides to cling on. Meanwhile Suella and the ERG try and knife her (JRM resignation today maybe?) and nobody has a clue what is going on.
I hate to say it but I wonder if Truss is going to take lessons from her idol BoJo and just try and cling on while everything crumbles around her. The signs are pointing in that direction.
She’ll go, probably this week, but not before she gives another thousand cuts to the Tory Party on the way out.0 -
If Mogg and Braverman resign saying Truss needs to go, that leaves a fascinating dilemma.numbertwelve said:I can quite honestly see a scenario where Mrs Brady tells Liz the game is up today but she decides to cling on. Meanwhile Suella and the ERG try and knife her (JRM resignation today maybe?) and nobody has a clue what is going on.
I hate to say it but I wonder if Truss is going to take lessons from her idol BoJo and just try and cling on while everything crumbles around her. The signs are pointing in that direction.
She’ll go, probably this week, but not before she gives another thousand cuts to the Tory Party on the way out.
Do we endorse their views, on the grounds she shouldn't have appointed them, or decide that since they've been wrong on every issue in their utterly worthless lives, actually Truss might have something about her and should be given a second chance?0 -
I've just come back from a work trip in true blue DC and NYC. Both places seemed pretty safe and pleasant and I am sure more interesting to visit than Oklahoma City but really shocking numbers of mentally ill homeless people on the streets.Benpointer said:
Who was it on here a few days ago who said that their friends wouldn't pick a US holiday in a blue state because of crime levels?DecrepiterJohnL said:
This started with GHW Bush, or a little before. Thanks primarily to Fox News, each side in America has its own facts. Not opinions, facts. This is now exacerbated by the web, where those woke internet giants, Twitter and Youtube, amplify right wing material.Alistair said:Classic "Facts don't care about your feelings moment" in American politics
https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1582894307169951744
Complete alternative reality moment by the GOP candidate.
It sounded like BS to me anyway, most of my friends wouldn't be able reliably say whether a given state is red or blue and don't choose to go to the US to avoid crime.0 -
Ah, thank you: nicely two-edged, I see (not sure if intentional).Beibheirli_C said:
Paywall by-pass installed....Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/
'Speaking ahead of the first meeting of the group, he warned that history “is about trying to sort out what is true or accurate or as close as we can get to the reality of the past, and not simply selecting a nice story, which is comforting to some people.”
“History is not a form of therapy. It should not be a form of therapy to all sorts of disaffected groups to please some activists,” he told an event on history organised by the think tank Politeia.'1 -
Chief whip into No 10 just now. Still in her job.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-633094000 -
Very good, Ydoethur.ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
It may interest you to learn that there is a pub in nearby Tewkesbury called The Ancient Grudge. I assumed it referred to the Civil War and was mightily amused, but in fact it turns out to be The War of The Roses.
Long memories around here.3 -
...
4 -
Fair enough. Didn't they, however, do a skeletal study of someone in Eboracum? But one does not make a multitude.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Carnyx, some, perhaps. But how many of those were citizens (necessary, pre-Caracalla, I think, to join a legion) or willing to join an auxiliary force, and then were also sent to Britain? We did have a relatively high number of legions, but some troop types (camelry being an example) were not exactly well-suited for the climate.
But there can be tendency for some to try and assume that diversity was always a thing and cosmopolitanism was the norm through history (the highly accurate videogame Kingdom Come Deliverance, set in Bohemia, had some numpties complaining everyone was white).
In major cities this was true to a greater extent, but in most places it was far from the case, especially in the ancient world.0 -
1.190
-
The Liberals only declined as the Labour party overtook them on voteshare and seats as the main non Tory Party. The Tories even now are still second on voteshare, only a Farage led party could really replace the Tories in a 1993 Canada scenario (where the liberal and populist right merged ultimately to form today's Conservative Party of Canada in 2003 anyway)StuartDickson said:
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
We don't teach enough history; we teach too much foreign history; tbh I just skimmed it and posted here as an FYI for anyone setting out for the newsagent. Black history should be year-round rather than a special month.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
One thing I did note from earlier looking at exam syllabuses is that there are so many options in history (for teachers, not pupils, to pick) that it would be mildly surprising if any two schools taught the same programme.
There is also a tension between history in the sense that King Alfred burnt the cakes, and history in the sense that here are two reproduction mediaeval cake recipes so can year 12 say which is more plausible, and history in the sense of can pupils imagine what life was like eating cakes before icing sugar was invented?0 -
If there was one part of running No 10 we should have expected Truss to be good at, it would have been dealing with the whips.Scott_xP said:Chief whip into No 10 just now. Still in her job.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-633094003 -
As against that: look at Leptis Magna in modern Libya, where the probably partly black emperor Septimius comes from. It has been suggested that its size and wealth in the second century is based on the constant traffic of wild beasts to the Roman med to furnish spectacles in amphitheatres (fuck they were horrible people). Such beasts come from well sub-Saharan Africa and presumably need catching and handling and escorting by large teams of highly skilled locals. So there's one input of black Africans.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. JohnL, I do worry that there might be a tug of war to either make history into "Gosh, everything was super" versus "Evil Britons atone".
The recent nonsense around a film... the Woman King, I think, shows that some people are far from colourblind when it comes to addressing history.
I was also surprised that a certain poet claims black people were in the UK with the Romans. Entirely possible in very low numbers but the difficulty of ancient travel between the sub-Saharan part of Africa and Europe I find it hard to believe the numbers were more than minimal. Rome's territory included north Africa but that's not the same as including black Africa (sub-Saharan part). Liby-Phoenicians and Numidians were not black.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-63291527
0 -
Xe Ôm!StuartDickson said:
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
If you don’t mind tying up your money for a couple of years load up on Truss to be PM into the next GE. She’s like a limpet.0
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Mr. Carnyx, unsure but one or two is entirely possible and wouldn't surprise me. The vast majority, (maybe all, unsure how far south Roman Egypt went) of Rome's African territory was not black, though. Could be that I'm wrong, but I'd want evidence of large numbers of white people in Sudan two thousand years ago, and vice versa.0
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There is a serious point here.StuartDickson said:Has Grant Shapps resigned yet?
I’ve made a few posts on here, in recent years, about the epidemic of cyber fraud and online scamming - and the utter unwillingness of the government to do its job protecting the people from it. Going after the people who do this shite.
We have scammers actively impersonating the police, HMRC and other government agencies and no meaningful attempt is made to stop it and go after the scum.
Appointing Michael Green to home sec is a special level of cynical.4 -
Is that the cable rate, the odds on Truss leaving this week or the time she announces her resignation?rottenborough said:1.19
1 -
I know the government are really into their cakeism, but I had not realised they had managed to insert so much of it into our history lessons.DecrepiterJohnL said:
We don't teach enough history; we teach too much foreign history; tbh I just skimmed it and posted here as an FYI for anyone setting out for the newsagent. Black history should be year-round rather than a special month.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
One thing I did note from earlier looking at exam syllabuses is that there are so many options in history (for teachers, not pupils, to pick) that it would be mildly surprising if any two schools taught the same programme.
There is also a tension between history in the sense that King Alfred burnt the cakes, and history in the sense that here are two reproduction mediaeval cake recipes so can year 12 say which is more plausible, and history in the sense of can pupils imagine what life was like eating cakes before icing sugar was invented?1 -
Today might just be the time for safe word - to make it all stop.....noneoftheabove said:
If there was one part of running No 10 we should have expected Truss to be good at, it would have been dealing with the whips.Scott_xP said:Chief whip into No 10 just now. Still in her job.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-633094001 -
@Peston
Talking to member of the cabinet last night, it’s clear there is a collective will among ministers to try to keep Liz Truss in office till 31 October, so that the chancellor can determine which further taxes need to rise and what spending should be cut in that de facto budget, the medium term fiscal plan, without the instability of not knowing who will be next PM.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/15830045197213368330 -
Your clock is wrong.rottenborough said:1.19
0 -
In Northern Ireland, you inherit your feuds...Peter_the_Punter said:
Very good, Ydoethur.ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
It may interest you to learn that there is a pub in nearby Tewkesbury called The Ancient Grudge. I assumed it referred to the Civil War and was mightily amused, but in fact it turns out to be The War of The Roses.
Long memories around here.
1 -
Peston says that she’s probably save until the end of the month. The grey suits want to get through the budget statement.0
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That Remoaner conspiracy in full:
1: Give Boris Johnson a glorious, unchallengeable 80-seat majority to create a superb, world-beating Brexit
2. Watch as he slowly realises his only options are catastrophic instant-death Brexit or slow-bleed Brexit
3. Give him a hand by unleashing a global pandemic so he can disguise the slow-bleed Brexit
4. But trick him into making a total arse of the response to the pandemic, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths
5. Manipulate him into breaking his own Covid regulations
6. Turn Tories into creepy sex pests, trick Johnson into repeatedly lying to cover up for them
7. Hypnotise 13 of his Ministers into resigning in protest over his sex pest lies, forcing Johnson to resign in disgrace
8. Make Tory members replace him with IEA puppet Liz Truss
9. Convince Truss to hire the worst dregs of the Tory hard right, people who wouldn't be within sniffing distance of controlling a whelk stall without the degrading influence of Brexit
10. Connive to make Truss invent a disastrous mini-Budget without any vote or consultation
11. Make centuries of established economic practice convulse over the genius of Truss's mini-Budget, leading to market chaos, collapsing pensions and rocketing mortgages
12. Cleverly convince Truss to blame it all on her Chancellor (and sack him)
13. Get Truss to hire someone else to do the humiliating U-turns.
14. Having already tricked Truss into hiring the worst Home Secretary in history, get said Home Secretary to start firing out secret documents to all and sundry, leading to her resignation.
15. Make Tories vote (against their wishes) for fracking in their own constituencies, against the wishes of their constituents
16. Engineer a massive fight about it in the voting lobby
17. Make the Tory whips resign and unresign while no one is sure who voted and who didn't
18. Ignite all ingredients for a night of absolute chaos and in-fighting, while Boris Johnson suns himself in the Caribbean, counting his lecture tour cash
19. Sit back and enjoy.
No one thought we could do it. Too complicated, they said. And we're not finished yet...
https://twitter.com/pacarnahan/status/15829972730675486755 -
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?0 -
It hasn't led to a flouring of the subject either.noneoftheabove said:
I know the government are really into their cakeism, but I had not realised they had managed to insert so much of it into our history lessons.DecrepiterJohnL said:
We don't teach enough history; we teach too much foreign history; tbh I just skimmed it and posted here as an FYI for anyone setting out for the newsagent. Black history should be year-round rather than a special month.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
One thing I did note from earlier looking at exam syllabuses is that there are so many options in history (for teachers, not pupils, to pick) that it would be mildly surprising if any two schools taught the same programme.
There is also a tension between history in the sense that King Alfred burnt the cakes, and history in the sense that here are two reproduction mediaeval cake recipes so can year 12 say which is more plausible, and history in the sense of can pupils imagine what life was like eating cakes before icing sugar was invented?0 -
Pin that post.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
2 -
Good question. Hard to pick from such a rogues gallery but I'd probably go for Suella Braverman, Owen Patterson and Jacob Rees Mogg as the absolute worst Tory MPs.noneoftheabove said:
Who are your top (or bottom) three?OnlyLivingBoy said:
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.0 -
No. It would likely be because they have spotted a better way to fleece the system.ydoethur said:
If Mogg and Braverman resign saying Truss needs to go, that leaves a fascinating dilemma.numbertwelve said:I can quite honestly see a scenario where Mrs Brady tells Liz the game is up today but she decides to cling on. Meanwhile Suella and the ERG try and knife her (JRM resignation today maybe?) and nobody has a clue what is going on.
I hate to say it but I wonder if Truss is going to take lessons from her idol BoJo and just try and cling on while everything crumbles around her. The signs are pointing in that direction.
She’ll go, probably this week, but not before she gives another thousand cuts to the Tory Party on the way out.
Do we endorse their views, on the grounds she shouldn't have appointed them, or decide that since they've been wrong on every issue in their utterly worthless lives, actually Truss might have something about her and should be given a second chance?3 -
PB’s resident expert on all things English jets in from Sweden to opine.StuartDickson said:
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
The Tories really, really, really don’t care about Little People.ping said:
There is a serious point here.StuartDickson said:Has Grant Shapps resigned yet?
I’ve made a few posts on here, in recent years, about the epidemic of cyber fraud and online scamming - and the utter unwillingness of the government to do its job protecting the people from it. Going after the people who do this shite.
We have scammers actively impersonating the police, HMRC and other government agencies and no meaningful attempt is made to stop it and go after the scum.
Appointing Michael Green to home sec is a special level of cynical.0 -
Gone today thenGardenwalker said:Peston says that she’s probably save until the end of the month. The grey suits want to get through the budget statement.
1 -
If I held the opposite opinion, would my location undermine that opinion?DougSeal said:
PB’s resident expert on all things English jets in from Sweden to opine.StuartDickson said:
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
That makes sense, but do politics make sense at the moment.Gardenwalker said:Peston says that she’s probably save until the end of the month. The grey suits want to get through the budget statement.
Does Truss make sense? Will she find a way of derailing even this modest timetable?
Who knows.0 -
What about the instability of knowing who is PM?williamglenn said:@Peston
Talking to member of the cabinet last night, it’s clear there is a collective will among ministers to try to keep Liz Truss in office till 31 October, so that the chancellor can determine which further taxes need to rise and what spending should be cut in that de facto budget, the medium term fiscal plan, without the instability of not knowing who will be next PM.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1583004519721336833
This is (some) cabinet ministers trading for time with the '22 - I'm pretty confident Brady will get letters from near enough half the parliamentary party today. Maybe even a majority.2 -
Because you start by showing how you can find out more.* And that's easiest to do in the local area. Once they have that ability, it's much easier to apply to just about any topic.Benpointer said:
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?
And because of time restrictions, you have to make choices. Very tough choices. One hour a week is the standard.**
*or at least, you do if you have a brain, so it won't be in any curriculum designed by the DfE.
**Again, something usually got wrong by these groups and our lords and masters. The primary curriculum published in 2013 was so stuffed with content the only way it could be delivered was to abandon the teaching of English and maths and just focus on history. Unfortunately, there was so much in the maths curriculum they would have had to be abandon English and History to focus on maths, so much in the English curriculum...oh you get the picture.
Even worse, the new Edexcel GCSE curriculum which was estimated to be teachable in 120 hours is so full it can't actually be taught to a standard that gets above about Level 5 in less than 190 hours.2 -
It worse than that. They can have whatever opinion they like of Radiohead.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
No ban hammer.2 -
One thing that is scandalously badly taught in England is 17th century history. Without understanding the results of the Civil War, Interregnum, “Glorious Revolution” and (stretching slightly over into the 18th) the Acts of Union you can’t understand the current constitution.Benpointer said:
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?2 -
That may be what they want, but the lesson that UK politics is refusing to learn is that wanting the impossible (or even the implausible) doesn't make it happen, no matter how intense the desire.williamglenn said:@Peston
Talking to member of the cabinet last night, it’s clear there is a collective will among ministers to try to keep Liz Truss in office till 31 October, so that the chancellor can determine which further taxes need to rise and what spending should be cut in that de facto budget, the medium term fiscal plan, without the instability of not knowing who will be next PM.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/15830045197213368330 -
As in other instances, I'm sure sticking his fingers in his ears and going lalalala worked admirably during that lesson.Carnyx said:
To be fair, one must imagine the trauma of a certain PBer when he went to school and learnt about Charles 1 pushing his luck and his divine right where it didn't belong, and getting a rather severe haircut.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?1 -
I won't have Sir Christorher Chope left out. The guy is ga-ga.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Good question. Hard to pick from such a rogues gallery but I'd probably go for Suella Braverman, Owen Patterson and Jacob Rees Mogg as the absolute worst Tory MPs.noneoftheabove said:
Who are your top (or bottom) three?OnlyLivingBoy said:
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.2 -
+1DougSeal said:
You’re beyond Corbyn levels of dysfunction. Way way beyond.HYUFD said:
No, it would need Braverman to be leader to be at the Corbyn stage.DougSeal said:
There are a number of reasons and you know it. The Labour Party in 2007-2010 had the usual faults and divisions but it was generally happy to coalesce around Brown. The Conservative Party in 2022 couldn’t stick together behind anyone if you poured a vat of superglue over them. The Conservative Party, if you want an analogy with Labour, is at the worst of the Corbyn years. Difference is that your party claims to form a “government”.HYUFD said:
Indeed, Labour MPs imposed Brown for 3 years as PM without him ever winning a general election. There is no reason Sunak could not become PM by coronation of Tory MPs and lead the party and country until 2024/25. He even now has the support of most Tory MembersMarqueeMark said:
If there are 120 Tory MPs prepared to inflict another membership vote on the Party, then it is best the MPs are wiped away and replaced in a decade or more.IanB2 said:
Currently that’s the informal threshold set by Brady that will trigger the committee reviewing the rules. You’re right that this may also become the nomination threshold, I guess.TheScreamingEagles said:
That said, despite all that has passed so far, I still don't see a General Election resulting from the current chaos. Peer over the edge, pause, step back to "regroup" under a safer pair of hands.
https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1582665358489669636?s=20&t=g1is5R42-IiZqyedJhlAEA
Blairites were also never than happy with Brown and ministers resigned in 2009 calling for Brown to quit. He still had most Labour MPs behind him though.
Truss just needs to be replaced by a PM most Tory MPs can get behind until the next general election, probably Sunak who won more Tory MPs support than Truss in the final MPs ballot anyway
Labour was lucky to have been in opposition, and to have received two useful 'steers' from the voters.
The Tory fiasco has yet to arrive at its date with the electorate, and the MPs can cling to the illusion that somehow they can still turn things around0 -
That makes zero sense because that only works if the next leader isn't elected by the membership because any leadership contender is going to want to give some feebies to the membership to win their votes.williamglenn said:@Peston
Talking to member of the cabinet last night, it’s clear there is a collective will among ministers to try to keep Liz Truss in office till 31 October, so that the chancellor can determine which further taxes need to rise and what spending should be cut in that de facto budget, the medium term fiscal plan, without the instability of not knowing who will be next PM.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1583004519721336833
0 -
Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.0
-
Well, that’s the view taken by Scottish posters on here when posters in England express any form of opinion on their country.StuartDickson said:
If I held the opposite opinion, would my location undermine that opinion?DougSeal said:
PB’s resident expert on all things English jets in from Sweden to opine.StuartDickson said:
The English Midlands are the key to governance in that country. If the Tories really are in the teens in that region then they are truly fucked. This is looking less and less like a Canada scenario and more like the demise of the once mighty Liberal Party. Yes, liberals still exist in English politics, but the movement is a pale shadow of its peak in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Gardenwalker said:
Previously the last redoubt of pro Johnson, pro Brexit yamyammery.StuartDickson said:
You are of course completely correct.LostPassword said:
This is where it would be particularly helpful to look at a few different polls in aggregate, because random variation in the subsamples will be large, and Wales is by far the lowest population area, so the size of the subsample will be smallest, and so the margin of error on that subsample will be largest - therefore, even if Tory support was even across the different regions, you would expect to see the highest score for the Tories in Wales if you looked at the scores across a few polls and picked the highest.StuartDickson said:Which part of the UK has the strongest support for the Conservative Party?
Well, according to Deltapoll, the surprising answer is… wait for it… Wales!
Con VI:
Wales 32%
Rest of South 27%
North 24%
London 19%
Midlands 17%
Scotland 9%
(Deltapoll, 13-17 October)
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
So you'd really want to check that this pattern was consistent across several polls.
But please don’t deny a weary old SNP activist his small pleasures in life. I’m in Schadenfreude heaven.
Midlands 17%
Just absorb that.
Midlands 17%
Of sweet lord.
It is entirely possible that the Tories are heading for Lib Dem status: also-rans.
Taxi!0 -
Piece on BBC news right now about large floating turbines that can be placed further out to sea. Looks good and they say we are world leaders in this. Lets stay in the lead.another_richard said:
I've no idea how much we are investing in energy production and development or how much we should be doing.maxh said:
That’s what I’m arguing for. But I fear at the moment we are doing the former in place of doing the latter at the scale we need. We should incentivise investment in alternatives far more than we are. It will pay itself back in droves.another_richard said:
There's no reason why we cannot both extract as much oil and gas from the North Sea and invest in alternative sources of energy.maxh said:
As an avowed environmentalist I reluctantly agree with this IFF combined with a coherent medium term plan to get out of gas and oil much faster than currently planned.DavidL said:
I agree. The real question about fracking is whether our geology is actually suitable for economic extraction. If it is we should do it, just as we should be squeezing what we can from the North Sea, whatever those idiots on the QEII bridge think. The alternative is that we import the gas or oil from other places we would really rather notJosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.
do business with (and our trade deficit gets even worse).
The lack of coherence about what follows it tops the scales back against it, currently, imo. We are just postponing a problem (decarbonising energy) which, the earlier we grapple with, the more we will benefit from (eg growth from expertise in alternative sources of energy)
But there's many billions being invested in energy consumption.
Which is indicative of the underlying problem in this country - we think consumption is far more important than production and that consumption must be protected while production has to look after itself.0 -
Leon.StuartDickson said:Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.
Erm…
That’s it.1 -
And Owen Paterson isn't an MP.Peter_the_Punter said:
I won't have Sir Christorher Chope left out. The guy is ga-ga.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Good question. Hard to pick from such a rogues gallery but I'd probably go for Suella Braverman, Owen Patterson and Jacob Rees Mogg as the absolute worst Tory MPs.noneoftheabove said:
Who are your top (or bottom) three?OnlyLivingBoy said:
The sad reality is that Mark Francois is actually far from the worst option on the table.noneoftheabove said:
In which case, Mark Francois should be curious to see why his turn to be PM has not (yet?) arrived.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Since at least 2016 the worst option has always prevailed in British politics.Omnium said:
Given the mistakes she's made recently (email, the spat with India, and generally idiotic posturing) and the childish tone of her departure letter I think she's not far off the worst possible choice.HYUFD said:
Braverman has no chance of being PM, she has a chance of being Leader of the Opposition to a Starmer governmentGardenwalker said:
YouGov’s survey of members showed practically zero support for Suella, and that’s among the criminally insane, ie her natural constituency.Casino_Royale said:
The trouble is, Westminster is full of people (within one's own faction, of course) who'll blow smoke up your own arsehole.MarqueeMark said:
Braverman's ambition and self-belief is W-A-Y more unwarranted than even that of Liz Truss.darkage said:
She could get there if it somehow goes to the membership. 28 is a good price.Andy_JS said:
I wonder how the 1922 committee intend to stop her from running for the leadership...Jonathan said:Braverman is on manoeuvres, right?
Then she would find herself in an infinitely worse position than Truss as PM.
The key problem is that - after getting Brexit done - the tories don't have a clear idea what they are in power to do. Is it to provide strong and stable leadership? Or to destroy the woke?
The Tories have no-one who can take her to one side and say "Suella...no. Just...no! Look at Liz Truss - and learn." The lack of respected grandees who are listened to is a major (pun intended) problem for management of the party.
You learn to ignore the rest.
One fears that Suella’s ring piece is smoke-damaged beyond repair.0 -
Which grey suits, but more importantly, whose budget? The working assumption there is that the new PM is going to have to sign up to whatever Hunt produces.Gardenwalker said:Peston says that she’s probably save until the end of the month. The grey suits want to get through the budget statement.
Which does leave open the possibility the new PM might have to rip up parts of that Budget.
Exactly what is not needed.0 -
The ERG will fight tooth and nail to prevent any attempt to by-pass the membership in a leadership vote.The ERG don't have a majority amongst the MPs but they do have a majority amongst the membership. Cut out the membership and the ERG are left twisting in the wind.Heathener said:
Yes to the last bit.FrequentLurker said:Suppose LizT resigns today.
Normally she'd stay on in a caretaker capacity until a new PM was elected.
I can't see that happening unless everyone agrees to play nice for however long it takes -- unlikely.
Truss would have to see the King to resign (still feels odd saying "King" there... not least because I want to clarify I don't mean Elvis!). Who would Charles send for? Would he rely on Truss's advice? Would Coffey be in with a shout of being caretaker PM simply because she's Deputy right now?
Even if there's behind-the-scenes agreement in the Tory party that Sunak (or whoever) steps in as caretaker, what does Charles do if Truss recommends someone else?
There's a strong case here for a written Constitution...!!
But listening to the political commentators, the biggest problem is that the tories are so riven and ripped apart that they cannot agree to any unifying candidate. Hard as it is to believe, we could be back in a similar situation under a different leader in 2 months time.
We need a General Election but there's no mechanism by which to get one, so far as we know.
p.s. It's easy to blame one faction over another. Boris clearly takes some of the blame for downing the most competent candidate, Rishi, out of sheer spite. But the ERG are fucking nutjobs who have wrecked their party and this country. Sorry but there's no simpler or more accurate way of putting it.
0 -
Utter shite. No debate. On all matters Radiohead I take a strict North Korea line. Dissenters will be executed by a pack of hungry dogs.MarqueeMark said:
It worse than that. They can have whatever opinion they like of Radiohead.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
No ban hammer.0 -
There must come a point where some Tory MPs think their best chance of surviving the next GE is to defect to the LDs or Labour.0
-
Speaking for myself I've always found that period rather boring.DougSeal said:
One thing that is scandalously badly taught in England is 17th century history. Without understanding the results of the Civil War, Interregnum, “Glorious Revolution” and (stretching slightly over into the 18th) the Acts of Union you can’t understand the current constitution.Benpointer said:
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?
(Btw, you can get round your issue with the 17C and Acts of Union by just calling it 'the Stuart era.')0 -
“we”paulyork64 said:
Piece on BBC news right now about large floating turbines that can be placed further out to sea. Looks good and they say we are world leaders in this. Lets stay in the lead.another_richard said:
I've no idea how much we are investing in energy production and development or how much we should be doing.maxh said:
That’s what I’m arguing for. But I fear at the moment we are doing the former in place of doing the latter at the scale we need. We should incentivise investment in alternatives far more than we are. It will pay itself back in droves.another_richard said:
There's no reason why we cannot both extract as much oil and gas from the North Sea and invest in alternative sources of energy.maxh said:
As an avowed environmentalist I reluctantly agree with this IFF combined with a coherent medium term plan to get out of gas and oil much faster than currently planned.DavidL said:
I agree. The real question about fracking is whether our geology is actually suitable for economic extraction. If it is we should do it, just as we should be squeezing what we can from the North Sea, whatever those idiots on the QEII bridge think. The alternative is that we import the gas or oil from other places we would really rather notJosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.
do business with (and our trade deficit gets even worse).
The lack of coherence about what follows it tops the scales back against it, currently, imo. We are just postponing a problem (decarbonising energy) which, the earlier we grapple with, the more we will benefit from (eg growth from expertise in alternative sources of energy)
But there's many billions being invested in energy consumption.
Which is indicative of the underlying problem in this country - we think consumption is far more important than production and that consumption must be protected while production has to look after itself.
Ho ho.1 -
Barty, WilliamGlenn and LuckyGuy say Hi!DougSeal said:
Leon.StuartDickson said:Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.
Erm…
That’s it.1 -
"History is more or less bunk"DougSeal said:
One thing that is scandalously badly taught in England is 17th century history. Without understanding the results of the Civil War, Interregnum, “Glorious Revolution” and (stretching slightly over into the 18th) the Acts of Union you can’t understand the current constitution.Benpointer said:
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?
- Henry Ford
0 -
Has Scotland banned covering their precious upland moorlands with vast wind turbine developments? That wrecks the country much more than fracking in small areas would.malcolmg said:
Luckily Scotland has banned fracking. England can wreck their country if they wish.JosiasJessop said:
I am on the fence about fracking - I have not looked into it deeply, and see conflicting views on here and elsewhere from people whose views I trust.swing_voter said:
and of course the 2019 Conservative manifesto was very clear on opposing fracking..... so although they did not vote with the govt (very much on naughty step) Fracking itself has no mandate.kle4 said:
Well that's just plain dumb - how can you punish MPs who saw conflicting reports if it was a confidence vote?Scott_xP said:At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1
Even if it's a ploy as MikeL suggests re a vote of no confidence it would be too damaging.
But given the energy crisis that has enveloped us, I think any 2019 manifesto commitments about energy can be broken. Manifestos are for ordinary times, and with respect to energy, these are not ordinary times.0 -
That suffices.DougSeal said:
Leon.StuartDickson said:Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.
Erm…
That’s it.
Sean.
Fucking Sean.
It’s always fucking Sean.
The man has the judgement of a Radiohead fan.1 -
As someone who is currently doing it as a (very) mature student at Birkbeck, what are you smoking?ydoethur said:
Speaking for myself I've always found that period rather boring.DougSeal said:
One thing that is scandalously badly taught in England is 17th century history. Without understanding the results of the Civil War, Interregnum, “Glorious Revolution” and (stretching slightly over into the 18th) the Acts of Union you can’t understand the current constitution.Benpointer said:
Hmmm... Ok I am going to comment on something I know nothing about (as usual).ydoethur said:
Roughly yes.Benpointer said:
Without reading the paywalled article the quote seems reasonable.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT
Schools shouldn’t turn history lessons into ‘comforting stories’, says Cambridge professor
Prof Robert Tombs made the comments during a meeting of a working group appointed to develop a model history curriculum by 2024
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/19/schools-shouldnt-turn-history-lessons-comforting-stories-says/ (£££)
What's the thrust of the article - 'rampant wokism brainwashing our kids'?
He does have a point that much history as taught in schools is almost laughably bad, but there are two issues with this working group: (1) the real issue is the appalling mess that is the exam system, which is outside their remit. Unless that is reformed to something vaguely sane, any changes to the content are wasted effort and (2) as academies are free to set their own curriculum and the government's stated aim is to convert all schools to academies, there's very little point to a 'model curriculum' anyway.
I would add that in any case there's very little merit to curriculae imposed from the top, because it's not likely to be responsive to local needs. For example, round here you want to go big on Saxons and the Industrial Revolution because those are the key things that shaped the local area. In Gloucestershire I would want to teach about Romans, the Civil War and the slave trade for much the same reason.
Two subjects there, surely? History and local history. Both have a place but imho everyone in this country should study all four of those topics you list to a reasonable level, under the History subject.
Local history study should be available for those with a particular interest.
What would it serve me to know everything about the Norman conquest and the Cinque Ports (I grew up in Hastings) but not much about the Industrial Revolution, once I left home and moved around the country/world?
(Btw, you can get round your issue with the 17C and Acts of Union by just calling it 'the Stuart era.')
Prefer “Long 17th Century” myself.0 -
Did you just say that Radiohead are utter shite?StuartDickson said:
Utter shite. No debate. On all matters Radiohead I take a strict North Korea line. Dissenters will be executed by a pack of hungry dogs.MarqueeMark said:
It worse than that. They can have whatever opinion they like of Radiohead.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
No ban hammer.0 -
You can have any opinion you like about Radiohead - it's just wiser to not reveal it.MarqueeMark said:
It worse than that. They can have whatever opinion they like of Radiohead.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
No ban hammer.0 -
And they probably think Python is a pop group....MarqueeMark said:
It worse than that. They can have whatever opinion they like of Radiohead.Theuniondivvie said:
‘In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.’DavidL said:In fairness to the Chief Whip trying to whip the current Conservative party must make herding cats look like a walk in the park. So many factions, so little in common, so many loud mouth opinionated twats who want the world to know what they think and utter incompetence in the form of direction from the centre with no core beliefs or principles to guide anyone.
The Conservatives will undoubtedly benefit from a period in opposition to rediscover what they are actually for. The risk is that no one will actually care anymore.
Akin to the role of PB moderator?
No ban hammer.0
...
