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As they say the “optics” don’t look good – politicalbetting.com

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  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    Another blistering attack on this shambolic government by Yvette Cooper.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,490

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest: senior Tories think we may be into the final hours of the Truss government.

    Several ministers are on resignation watch, no confidence letters are flowing into Sir Graham Brady.

    One minister: “The government has become a total farce.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/639adc81-7805-4e2b-9eff-338c7cc71222

    They need to get on with it rather than steadily dribbling out backbenchers every few hours.
    Andrea Leadsom could organise another march on parliament.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    In terms of fessing up to my previous views on Truss, I’ve taken a look back and actually pleasantly surprised that I was calling out it was more likely than not she would flop. Where I was more incorrect was on having a massive downer on Sunak and thinking Truss would do a better job than him (laughable now):

    July 26th
    July 27th

    “So there is a chance that with the right advice that she actually finds her feet and turns into a much more formidable opponent.

    I don’t think it’s likely. But she’s got more chance of impressing on the upside than Sunak.“

    5 September

    “I think Truss will fail because I think events are too much for pretty much any PM to handle. That said, I still think she was a better choice than Sunak. A dice roll, but one the Tories probably had to make”


    (Hmm… not convinced about that one now…)

    6 September

    “ My prediction - by October/November the narrative will be “oh didn’t we underestimate Liz, she’s doing a really good job in challenging circumstances” before it all implodes next year.”

    (Obviously wrong! But at least I got the implosion right - just quicker than I ever thought possible).
  • IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Er, no way Mark Twain (ak Samuel Langhorne Clemens) was giving battlefield tours during the Crimean War. He wasn't yet a cub riverboat pilot when the war ended (1856)

    He visited Crimea in 1867, over ten years AFTER the end of the Crimean War.

    https://victorianweb.org/history/crimea/beck/2n1.html

    "Twain himself had visited the Crimea in the summer of 1867 when he went on his first European excursion (The Innocents Abroad, Ch. 35). He had a good idea of the various battlefields, even going so far as to make a sketch of them (see Notebooks and Journals, I, 404).

    For the most part, Twain emphasized he desolation, still visible many years after the war had ended. But he also spoke respectfully of the Russian defenders of Sevastopol, whose "desperate valor could not avail, and they had to give up at last." No hint here of Russians turning tail at the sight of a British regiment. Earlier on this voyage he had seen "the white-moustached old Crimean soldier Canrobert, marshal of France," on parade in Paris (Ch. 13).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Urgent Question now. Not Shapps answering.

    It's Brendan Clarke Smith from the Cabinet Office, answering because "its a breach of security" so he's batting away any questions on policy as not his remit.
  • Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited October 2022
    Wow! What a bunch of xenophobes on the Conservative benches. Questions along the lines of "Can you assure us that the new HS will keep forriners out?"
  • SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,456

    In terms of fessing up to my previous views on Truss, I’ve taken a look back and actually pleasantly surprised that I was calling out it was more likely than not she would flop. Where I was more incorrect was on having a massive downer on Sunak and thinking Truss would do a better job than him (laughable now):

    July 26th
    July 27th

    “So there is a chance that with the right advice that she actually finds her feet and turns into a much more formidable opponent.

    I don’t think it’s likely. But she’s got more chance of impressing on the upside than Sunak.“

    5 September

    “I think Truss will fail because I think events are too much for pretty much any PM to handle. That said, I still think she was a better choice than Sunak. A dice roll, but one the Tories probably had to make”


    (Hmm… not convinced about that one now…)

    6 September

    “ My prediction - by October/November the narrative will be “oh didn’t we underestimate Liz, she’s doing a really good job in challenging circumstances” before it all implodes next year.”

    (Obviously wrong! But at least I got the implosion right - just quicker than I ever thought possible).

    A few years back, I had a real downer om a prospective Johnson PMship, due to his performance as MoL. I think I was right, and unusually for the right reasons. I did not have such a massive negative on Truss, and was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt in case she surprised on the upside.

    Ooops.

    Then again, I was a Mordaunt guy. I still think she was the best option out of the lot of them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,058
    On the grounds of it's good to get out of your silo and expose yourself to different views I caught a bit of David Campbell Bannerman on GB News yesterday. He detects in all this Truss chaos the unmistakable hand of "corporate WEF globalists" seeking revenge for Brexit. Really seemed to think that. Quite passionate about it. Then it was back to my silo. Least I've proved I can do it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour gets granted an UQ on Braverman - up soon in the House?

    They continue to press on fresh bruises
    They’d better be careful with the Truss attacks. Starmer came over as a bully yesterday.
    Hmm. I had that thought, too, listening to PMQ’s. Out of a woman’s mouth it wouldn’t have been problematic, but, yes, Starmer is treading a fine line.

    A little unfair, perhaps. Politics - and particularly PMQ’s is a bear pit and they know what they’re getting themselves into etc etc.

    Gender shouldn’t matter. But it kinda does.
    Sturgeon has three advantages over Starmer:

    1. She’s a woman and can get away with criticising another woman.
    2. Physical distance: Edinburgh/London.
    3. She keeps it concise and to the point (“Resign”) whereas Starmer is trying to be a loquacious smarty pants.
    Then she faffs it all up against the wall by making it all about 'independence'.
    Yes, there's nothing like complete and total anarchy at Westminster for putting off people in Scotland from the idea of independence.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946
    edited October 2022

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    As mentioned earlier, clever people are generally too clever to want to go into politics in the social media age. We get the politicians we deserve. And the only reason you can say "2019 Tories" is that the 2019 Labour new intake was rather small...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    So what's wrong with the Tory selection committees? Dropping into a safe seat with a role in politics for life (well, now to be cut short at the next election!) - surely there should be decent, competent, sensible people to choose from?

    If the only question they get asked is "are you prepared to impose the hardest of Brexits on the country regardless of the evidence and damage it would do?", then QED.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,802
    News that Russians are starting to get out of Enerhodar. That's the town where the big nuclear plant is based. I hope it has been made clear to Putin that there will be big consequences if anything goes wrong there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,270
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476
    edited October 2022
    Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?

    This is what happens when you have electronic voting. And this is with only 640-odd people eligible to vote, where errors in the record are easy to find and correct.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    I see the Beeb reporter is having Religious Protestor problems... :smiley:
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kinabalu said:

    On the grounds of it's good to get out of your silo and expose yourself to different views I caught a bit of David Campbell Bannerman on GB News yesterday. He detects in all this Truss chaos the unmistakable hand of "corporate WEF globalists" seeking revenge for Brexit. Really seemed to think that. Quite passionate about it. Then it was back to my silo. Least I've proved I can do it.

    That BBC archaeologist BritNat weirdo is also a “corporate WEF globalist” obsessive. His Twitter feed is a record of his descent into madness

    Neil Oliver
  • Isn't the cutting of Shetlands cable clearly the work of the CIA? (IRONY ALERT!)

    I mean, that was the "obvious" conclusion jumped to by some of the leading pundits on PB when the Nordstream pipeline(s) were sabotaged?

    Seems that standards keep on slipping, on PB as well in UK "government".
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour gets granted an UQ on Braverman - up soon in the House?

    They continue to press on fresh bruises
    They’d better be careful with the Truss attacks. Starmer came over as a bully yesterday.
    Hmm. I had that thought, too, listening to PMQ’s. Out of a woman’s mouth it wouldn’t have been problematic, but, yes, Starmer is treading a fine line.

    A little unfair, perhaps. Politics - and particularly PMQ’s is a bear pit and they know what they’re getting themselves into etc etc.

    Gender shouldn’t matter. But it kinda does.
    Sturgeon has three advantages over Starmer:

    1. She’s a woman and can get away with criticising another woman.
    2. Physical distance: Edinburgh/London.
    3. She keeps it concise and to the point (“Resign”) whereas Starmer is trying to be a loquacious smarty pants.
    Then she faffs it all up against the wall by making it all about 'independence'.
    Yes, there's nothing like complete and total anarchy at Westminster for putting off people in Scotland from the idea of independence.
    The British Nationalists have predicted the demise of the Scottish self-determination movement on thousands of occasions. They have a 100% record to date. 100% wrong.
  • Driver said:

    SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?

    This is what happens when you have electronic voting. And this is with only 640-odd people eligible to vote, where errors in the record are easy to find and correct.
    Did anybody actually see Liz Truss or Wendy Morton in the Division Lobby casting their votes?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022

    SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?

    I'd imagine a couple of colleagues assure the officials that they definitely saw you in the lobby, and the official swallows any doubts as a favour to powerful people.

    After all, the vote is won, there's no question they'd both have supported the government, so adding them to the list just saves a little embarassment.

    I suspect that Morton has been added in because she was seen with Truss throughout and it looks better for both of them.

    The alternative - that the voting machine fails to record votes and that it happened twice in succession (assuming they went through together) is both unlikely and concerning, for other votes. Surely it gives some sort of confirmation - like a clear beep - when the vote is recorded (like a cashless credit card, which we're all used to), and they will be using this system countless times each week.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    I see the Beeb reporter is having Religious Protestor problems... :smiley:

    Has he called anyone a c…?

    There were two yesterday: C4 + Peston. Rule of three.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour gets granted an UQ on Braverman - up soon in the House?

    They continue to press on fresh bruises
    They’d better be careful with the Truss attacks. Starmer came over as a bully yesterday.
    Hmm. I had that thought, too, listening to PMQ’s. Out of a woman’s mouth it wouldn’t have been problematic, but, yes, Starmer is treading a fine line.

    A little unfair, perhaps. Politics - and particularly PMQ’s is a bear pit and they know what they’re getting themselves into etc etc.

    Gender shouldn’t matter. But it kinda does.
    Sturgeon has three advantages over Starmer:

    1. She’s a woman and can get away with criticising another woman.
    2. Physical distance: Edinburgh/London.
    3. She keeps it concise and to the point (“Resign”) whereas Starmer is trying to be a loquacious smarty pants.
    Then she faffs it all up against the wall by making it all about 'independence'.
    Yes, there's nothing like complete and total anarchy at Westminster for putting off people in Scotland from the idea of independence.
    I love how the BritNats think that utter chaos in London is somehow a big plus for the Union.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    The Tories certainly need a massive distraction right now!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    To be fair, Labour has a similar proportion of moon-howlers.... Just fewer in number.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022
    ..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    NEW 👀 My analysis of the crisis engulfing th Government

    Why you shouldn't write off Liz Truss just yet

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/20/why-shouldnt-write-liz-truss-just-yet/
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    Scott_xP said:

    Latest: senior Tories think we may be into the final hours of the Truss government.

    Several ministers are on resignation watch, no confidence letters are flowing into Sir Graham Brady.

    One minister: “The government has become a total farce.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/639adc81-7805-4e2b-9eff-338c7cc71222

    If there are any MPs who are NOT sending letters in one wonders what would provoke them to do so.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    Quite, though I'm startled to find out who is comparing Tory MPs to grice sharn.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest: senior Tories think we may be into the final hours of the Truss government.

    Several ministers are on resignation watch, no confidence letters are flowing into Sir Graham Brady.

    One minister: “The government has become a total farce.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/639adc81-7805-4e2b-9eff-338c7cc71222

    They need to get on with it rather than steadily dribbling out backbenchers every few hours.
    Andrea Leadsom could organise another march on parliament.
    Mordaunt both conceived and organised that march - a big black mark for her!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    To be fair, Labour has a similar proportion of moon-howlers.... Just fewer in number.
    Safe seats = party selection committees indulge their political obsessions free of any need to put a convincing capable candidate in front of the voters.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 111

    kinabalu said:

    On the grounds of it's good to get out of your silo and expose yourself to different views I caught a bit of David Campbell Bannerman on GB News yesterday. He detects in all this Truss chaos the unmistakable hand of "corporate WEF globalists" seeking revenge for Brexit. Really seemed to think that. Quite passionate about it. Then it was back to my silo. Least I've proved I can do it.

    That BBC archaeologist BritNat weirdo is also a “corporate WEF globalist” obsessive. His Twitter feed is a record of his descent into madness

    Neil Oliver
    My job is parallel to his historical interest, so I was around him once. His whole demeanor did remind me of mental illness. He wasn't even giving any political views. But his unblinking stare and self-enclosed intensity was very unnerving.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715

    stjohn said:

    IanB2 said:

    Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.

    Very few, tbf - I think Barty, Leon "she'll surprise on the upside"..damus, and one other?
    I'm not prepared to concede defeat yet. Her cabinet is getting better every day.
    Has Thérèse Coffey gone yet?
    Bean wondering that too. On what grounds?
    Expect the news to filter out....
    Latter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,990
    Out of historical interest, when was the first incident of an undersea cable being cut in war?

    The earliest I know of was somebody cutting all the German owned cables in the Channel in 1914.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42367551

    Were there any earlier occurrences?
  • Alistair said:

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour gets granted an UQ on Braverman - up soon in the House?

    They continue to press on fresh bruises
    They’d better be careful with the Truss attacks. Starmer came over as a bully yesterday.
    Hmm. I had that thought, too, listening to PMQ’s. Out of a woman’s mouth it wouldn’t have been problematic, but, yes, Starmer is treading a fine line.

    A little unfair, perhaps. Politics - and particularly PMQ’s is a bear pit and they know what they’re getting themselves into etc etc.

    Gender shouldn’t matter. But it kinda does.
    Sturgeon has three advantages over Starmer:

    1. She’s a woman and can get away with criticising another woman.
    2. Physical distance: Edinburgh/London.
    3. She keeps it concise and to the point (“Resign”) whereas Starmer is trying to be a loquacious smarty pants.
    Then she faffs it all up against the wall by making it all about 'independence'.
    Yes, there's nothing like complete and total anarchy at Westminster for putting off people in Scotland from the idea of independence.
    I love how the BritNats think that utter chaos in London is somehow a big plus for the Union.
    As yours truly keeps on saying - without serious refutation mind you - it's the Conservative and Disunionist Party.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    James O'B - "The tyranny of the talentless...."
  • TOPPING said:

    Driver said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Has anyone got a spreadsheet of PBers who were ramping Truss during the summer? It would make for fascinating reading.

    Leon.
    Erm…
    That’s it.
    Barty, WilliamGlenn and LuckyGuy say Hi!
    Excuse me, I never ramped her.

    I wanted her to win, even if she lost the next election for the Tories, as I wanted the Health and Social Care Levy axed. I was quite clear that I'd rather lose the next election with Truss doing that, than win it with Sunak implementing that levy.

    That's not ramping, that's putting purity/principle (take your pick) ahead of party politics.
    So how least bad do the rest of the polices have to be for you to support someone on the one policy you judge good.
    Some policies are a matter of hardcore principle for me and absolute deal-breakers. Being racist, restricting abortion, and increasing NI fit that bill for me.

    I tipped Sunak to be PM when he was almost unheard-of and was arguably Boris's biggest fan on this site until they both increased NI and I quit the party and stopped supporting them both instantly the second they increased it. That's how core a principle it is to me.

    All my life I've advocated flat and consistent taxes. Higher or lower tax rates is about a choice on what your priorities are, but inconsistent taxes paid by some people based on how they earn but not others who earn the exact same amount? Absolute deal-breaker for me I'm afraid.
    I think we can (but won't) debate long into the night how your voting for Nigel Farage sits with your "absolute deal-breakers. Being racist..."

    If Corbyn wasn't an anti-semite (big if) then he certainly enabled anti-semitism.

    If Farage wasn't...
    I absolutely despise Farage. I would never in a million years vote for Farage to go to Westminster.

    I cast a protest vote, at a protest election, to get Farage out of the European Parliament and Theresa May out of Downing Street. Had it been a real election and not a sham one, I'd have voted differently.
    What if everyone who despised Farage voted for him. What if everyone who despised him had voted for UKIP in the UK. How come you get to register your protest vote but no one else is. You voted for someone who if not a racist enabled racism.

    But you have principles and "absolute deal-breakers".
    Lots of people registered their protest vote at that election that should never have been.
    A A Gill once famously said that there is not an "watching ironically" button to press when you tune in to trashy reality TV. The viewing figures are the viewing figures.
    And the MPs elected to Parliament are the MPs elected to Parliament.

    How many MPs did Farage get elected to Westminster in 2019?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,901

    Driver said:

    SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?

    This is what happens when you have electronic voting. And this is with only 640-odd people eligible to vote, where errors in the record are easy to find and correct.
    Did anybody actually see Liz Truss or Wendy Morton in the Division Lobby casting their votes?
    I'm sure there are several reliable witnesses.
    Rees Mogg, for example.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946
    IanB2 said:

    James O'B - "The tyranny of the talentless...."

    And he would know.
  • Scott_xP said:

    NEW 👀 My analysis of the crisis engulfing th Government

    Why you shouldn't write off Liz Truss just yet

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/20/why-shouldnt-write-liz-truss-just-yet/

    The usual stuff about safe for a year, and no agreed successor, but you could (and maybe Christopher Hope did) use the same reasons to say Boris was immovable.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    14 MPs now publicly calling on truss to go. Thats eight more just this morning https://twitter.com/tomlarkinsky/status/1583032794787110912
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Driver said:

    IanB2 said:

    James O'B - "The tyranny of the talentless...."

    And he would know.
    Alan Clark called it 'The repressive conspiracy of the incompetent'.
  • Scott_xP said:

    NEW 👀 My analysis of the crisis engulfing th Government

    Why you shouldn't write off Liz Truss just yet

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/20/why-shouldnt-write-liz-truss-just-yet/

    The usual stuff about safe for a year, and no agreed successor, but you could (and maybe Christopher Hope did) use the same reasons to say Boris was immovable.
    And May....
  • Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Very little discussion of this on Twitter.

    I wonder if it is D-Noticed (so to speak)
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    IanB2 said:

    Dan Bloom
    @danbloom1
    ·
    24m
    MP continues: "People will look at whether she can turn things around, and they will look at whether they can win with her as prime minister. If they cant, and she can’t, it gets to the Lady Macbeth territory - If it were done… then 'twere well it were done quickly."

    Why is he saying that today?

    That comment could have been made two weeks ago. Now, the answer to those questions is already extremely clear.
    Some Conservative MPs are just ultra-loyal to their Party's regime of rules and figureheads. Weird, but they refuse to question.

    Others are just pig-shit thick. Including plenty in the new intake.
    I have made this point repeatedly. So many of the 2019 Tories are thick as mince. They are great at repeating slogans but that's all they can do. Which isn't helpful if you need MPs to actually become ministers and make informed decisions.
    So what's wrong with the Tory selection committees? Dropping into a safe seat with a role in politics for life (well, now to be cut short at the next election!) - surely there should be decent, competent, sensible people to choose from?

    If the only question they get asked is "are you prepared to impose the hardest of Brexits on the country regardless of the evidence and damage it would do?", then QED.
    Not sure what the Cons selection committees would have been like in Stoke on Trent and Nottinghamshire, did they really think they were picking actual seat winning MPs in places like Gedling....
  • Driver said:

    IanB2 said:

    James O'B - "The tyranny of the talentless...."

    And he would know.
    He does indeed know and so do you.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    If Labour go ahead with this then they are making a rod for their own back. They are going to have very difficult choices to make and this will make it even harder.

    the main news to come out of TUC is Keir Starmer promising to rip up Tory anti-strike legislation including the 2016 Trade Union Act
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1583029599415345152
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,990
    edited October 2022
    IanB2 said:

    SO how does the voting record as published in Hansard get changed, to reflect that people voted in a division who apparently did NOT go through a lobby in the normal fashion?

    As with the (alleged) Prime Minister and her (sometimes) Chief Whip? Who are now both listed as votes against the Fracking Ban motion, but last night were conspicuously absent (if not exactly AWOL) from the voting?

    I'd imagine a couple of colleagues assure the officials that they definitely saw you in the lobby, and the official swallows any doubts as a favour to powerful people.

    After all, the vote is won, there's no question they'd both have supported the government, so adding them to the list just saves a little embarassment.

    I suspect that Morton has been added in because she was seen with Truss throughout and it looks better for both of them.

    The alternative - that the voting machine fails to record votes and that it happened twice in succession (assuming they went through together) is both unlikely and concerning, for other votes. Surely it gives some sort of confirmation - like a clear beep - when the vote is recorded (like a cashless credit card, which we're all used to), and they will be using this system countless times each week.
    From wiki on 'misstatements':

    Because Hansard is treated as accurate, there is a parliamentary convention whereby if a member of Parliament makes an inaccurate statement in Parliament, they must write a correction in the copy of Hansard kept in the House of Commons library.

    Presumably there are security cameras in the lobbies?
  • MikeL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    At 1:33am, another twist. A message from Downing St source to say it WAS a confidence vote - with consequences for those MPs who didn’t back the government lifting ban on fracking. https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1582936217632444418/photo/1

    Presumably she's going to try to stop all those MPs voting in a No Confidence vote.

    But as more than 40 Con MPs didn't support the Government, if she removes the whip from all of them then the Conservatives no longer have a majority.

    The whole episode makes it even more breathtaking that Brady hasn't already acted.

    Brady is as incompetent as Truss. He should not allow Truss to singlehandedly destroy the Conservative Party.
    I think he has help.
  • Scott_xP said:

    NEW 👀 My analysis of the crisis engulfing th Government

    Why you shouldn't write off Liz Truss just yet

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/20/why-shouldnt-write-liz-truss-just-yet/

    Her best bet now is surely to make up that she was indeed recruited by Paddy Ashdown as a sleeper agent to break up the Tory party, once and for all. Flips her in the history books from the worst PM ever to a key successful historical figure......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476

    I see the Beeb reporter is having Religious Protestor problems... :smiley:

    Has he called anyone a c…?

    There were two yesterday: C4 + Peston. Rule of three.
    It was probably used plenty in that Braverman-Truss 90 minute screaming event.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I feel pretty good about this August 5th post by me: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4061104/#Comment_4061104


    The spotlight being off Boris and his non stop cavalcade of gaffes, grift and disasters is doing wonders for the polling gap.

    Of course, once Truss starts up her cavalcade of disasters thing may not go as well.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited October 2022

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    And so Leadership Contest 2.0 begins - Tory MP Crispin Blunt calling for Jeremy Hunt to take over as prime minister 👇🏽 https://twitter.com/crispinblunt/status/1583034801929715714
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,998
    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    I wonder if this subsea cable thing was why Braveheart was in Washington yesterday?

    I'm here to ramp this until Leon wakes up. 3am in Colorado.

    Hmm. Do you think he'd go for Russian escalation or aliens? Given we don't expect him for a few hours, you probably have to make the call for him...

    ETA: Could also be Northlink accidentally cutting the north link. Afterall, there's an awful lot of Magnus the Viking under the water and he's probably got a sharp sword/axe.
    image
    Escalation by Russian Woke Trans Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs, surely?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,743
    Tipping it down here. Been dark and raining all day.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,802

    Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Very little discussion of this on Twitter.

    I wonder if it is D-Noticed (so to speak)
    The Ukrainians certainly had a news blackout. Though that was reported. So it wasn't a 'super injunction' as it were.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
  • Deficits don't matter - Dick Cheney and Republican Party, 2003

    Manifestos don't matter - Liz Truss and Conservative Party, 2022
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,490

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Have you given up on your ridiculous conspiracy theory that the Russians had a hand in Kwarteng's budget?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    Deficits don't matter - Dick Cheney and Republican Party, 2003

    Manifestos don't matter - Liz Truss and Conservative Party, 2022

    Manifestos don't matter - the courts, in the Wheeler case. Lefties cheered then.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476
    Scott_xP said:

    14 MPs now publicly calling on truss to go. Thats eight more just this morning https://twitter.com/tomlarkinsky/status/1583032794787110912

    Should be 140 by now.

    Who the hell do they think they are being loyal towards? Supine twats....
  • Wow! What a bunch of xenophobes on the Conservative benches. Questions along the lines of "Can you assure us that the new HS will keep forriners out?"

    As I'm sure you will recall I have called this tendency amongst Tories out previously. To the upset of people who had been PB Tories not of that tendency.

    For an awful lot of people, Brexit was about getting shut of the foreigners of various kinds who were here taking all the jobs and claiming benefits and filling schools and hospitals.
  • Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
    Agree with you, the mess in London is indeed risible.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,270
    edited October 2022

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Provided HMG can keep on paying the bills the crisis in the rest of the government doesn't seem to be causing any particular difficulties for the MoD or the provision of support to Ukraine by the UK.

    I wouldn't want Liz Truss to be making important decisions if the Russians are cutting our subsea cables, or do vindicate Leon's wildest fears.

    Wallace will see it as his duty to stay in his post and do his job.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    Now what? A senior former cabinet minister responds: “f*** knows”. My @IndyVoices column (the fourth draft as what I wrote kept getting overtaken by events!) on what next for the country, the government and @trussliz https://twitter.com/indyvoices/status/1583028398753861632
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
    Agree with you, the mess in London is indeed risible.
    But it has nothing to do with Trump and no impact on Ukraine.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Wow! What a bunch of xenophobes on the Conservative benches. Questions along the lines of "Can you assure us that the new HS will keep forriners out?"

    As I'm sure you will recall I have called this tendency amongst Tories out previously. To the upset of people who had been PB Tories not of that tendency.

    For an awful lot of people, Brexit was about getting shut of the foreigners of various kinds who were here taking all the jobs and claiming benefits and filling schools and hospitals.
    I do recall you saying. Probably because I have said much the same only to be told that I am deluded (which is a big rich coming from the PB Tory extremes)
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    Wow! What a bunch of xenophobes on the Conservative benches. Questions along the lines of "Can you assure us that the new HS will keep forriners out?"

    As I'm sure you will recall I have called this tendency amongst Tories out previously. To the upset of people who had been PB Tories not of that tendency.

    For an awful lot of people, Brexit was about getting shut of the foreigners of various kinds who were here taking all the jobs and claiming benefits and filling schools and hospitals.
    You'll perhaps forgive me if I don't take Bev's paraphrasing of the questions on trust?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,802
    When is Iran going to be held accountable for getting itself involved in a European war?
  • Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Isn't this what's behind the "evacuation" of civilians from Kherson.

    Telling the Ukrainians that they're using Ukraine's own citizens as a human shield, so that Ukrainian forces won't shoot at them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,476
    Another Russian top brass has been killed in Ukraine - General Roman Kutuzov. Fulsome condolences on Russian social media.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    Betting Post: I'm surprised to see Sunak so short (don't) at 2.72 for next PM.

    I've layed that a bit.
  • MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Provided HMG can keep on paying the bills the crisis in the rest of the government doesn't seem to be causing any particular difficulties for the MoD or the provision of support to Ukraine by the UK.

    I wouldn't want Liz Truss to be making important decisions if the Russians are cutting our subsea cables, or do vindicate Leon's wildest fears.

    Wallace will see it as his duty to stay in his post and do his job.
    Liz Truss in her last (perhaps for all time?) PMQs pledged to maintain MILITARY aid to UKR at current levels (how reassuring!) but rather pointedly said NOTHING about non-military aid, which is clearly just as significant.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,490
    @NadineDorries
    One person was elected by the British public with a manifesto and a mandate until January ‘25.
    If Liz Truss is no longer PM there can be no coronation of previously failed candidates.

    MPs must demand return of @BorisJohnson - if not it has to be leadership election or a GE.

    It is inconceivable that we could continue to face the world parading the notion that we are a democracy.

    A coronation is the transfer of power out of the hands of the people and into the offices of a few already extremely powerful men in grey suits. It would be an abomination


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1583033679990861825
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
    Agree with you, the mess in London is indeed risible.
    But it has nothing to do with Trump and no impact on Ukraine.
    HA! HA! HA!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Starmer is giving a good speech at the TUC. Actually some passion showing through the grey!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,787
    edited October 2022
    Driver said:

    Deficits don't matter - Dick Cheney and Republican Party, 2003

    Manifestos don't matter - Liz Truss and Conservative Party, 2022

    Manifestos don't matter - the courts, in the Wheeler case. Lefties cheered then.
    Manifestos don't matter in the sense that governments should not be bound by them, events change the landscape over 5 years. Of course they do matter in the sense that people who voted for you will feel let down or worse if you can't convince them of the necessity for doing the opposite of a manifesto commitment. I guess there won't be much if any fracking before the next GE so unlikely to be a massive issue on its own amongst everything else, but just adds to the out of touch and delusional angle that will bring the Tories down.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Strange goings on in Germany.

    Treason!!

    🇨🇳 China: We want to buy part of the port of Hamburg.

    🇩🇪 Economic Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Interior Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Defense Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Foreign Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Finance Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Transport Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Intelligence Agency: No!
    🇩🇪 Counterintelligence Agency: No!
    🇪🇺 EU Commission: No!

    🇩🇪 Chancellor @OlafScholz : Yes! China can buy it. I am forcing through the sale of this critical infrastructure and am overruling all ministers and all German security agencies to do what the Chinese dictator wants.

    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1583039861447331840
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,946

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Provided HMG can keep on paying the bills the crisis in the rest of the government doesn't seem to be causing any particular difficulties for the MoD or the provision of support to Ukraine by the UK.

    I wouldn't want Liz Truss to be making important decisions if the Russians are cutting our subsea cables, or do vindicate Leon's wildest fears.

    Wallace will see it as his duty to stay in his post and do his job.
    Liz Truss in her last (perhaps for all time?) PMQs pledged to maintain MILITARY aid to UKR at current levels (how reassuring!) but rather pointedly said NOTHING about non-military aid, which is clearly just as significant.
    What she said is:

    We must make sure that Ukraine wins. It can win, it will win, and it must win.

    Your attempts to cast some doubt on her - and the UK's - support for Ukraine are laughable.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    When is Iran going to be held accountable for getting itself involved in a European war?

    British forces bombed Iraq last week.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,490

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
    Agree with you, the mess in London is indeed risible.
    But it has nothing to do with Trump and no impact on Ukraine.
    HA! HA! HA!
    You're the only one proposing something that might cheer Putin, which is the resignation of Ben Wallace.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,592
    MPs calling for her to go:



    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    13s
    Seems to finally be a degree of coordination here.
  • MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Have you given up on your ridiculous conspiracy theory that the Russians had a hand in Kwarteng's budget?
    Via their donations to the Conservative Party they've definitely had a hand in hollowing it out and turning it into a Bad Clown College.

    You don't need to turn people into active, knowing traitors to turn them into "useful idiots".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,998

    Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Shades of WWII in Europe - at the end Eisenhower had to forbid such local surrenders, because the Germans were heading East to fight the Russians…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295

    Another Russian top brass has been killed in Ukraine - General Roman Kutuzov. Fulsome condolences on Russian social media.

    'Kutuzov' sounds like a report on Ukrainian operations in Kherson.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Both sides of the House giving Jesse Norman a hard time over the Manchester China consulate brawl.
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    3am where you are? I know you tend to over-translate your hatred of Trump onto British politics, but this is risible.
    Agree with you, the mess in London is indeed risible.
    But it has nothing to do with Trump and no impact on Ukraine.
    HA! HA! HA!
    You're the only one proposing something that might cheer Putin, which is the resignation of Ben Wallace.
    Oh, now I am PROPOSING that Wallace resign?

    Yet again, you prove yourself to be a twister of truly epic proportions.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,578

    Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Russian columns leaving Kherson. Given they are well within HIMARS range, wonder if there has been a local deal done between the two sides - take your men (but not your heavy weaponry) over the river without destroying Kherson, and in turn we will not destroy you...?

    https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1582902740727959553

    Reports suggest that they are retreating across the dam to the east, so they aren't being targeted on the crossing itself. They are having to abandon all their heavy equipment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,998
    AlistairM said:

    Strange goings on in Germany.

    Treason!!

    🇨🇳 China: We want to buy part of the port of Hamburg.

    🇩🇪 Economic Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Interior Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Defense Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Foreign Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Finance Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Transport Ministry: No!
    🇩🇪 Intelligence Agency: No!
    🇩🇪 Counterintelligence Agency: No!
    🇪🇺 EU Commission: No!

    🇩🇪 Chancellor @OlafScholz : Yes! China can buy it. I am forcing through the sale of this critical infrastructure and am overruling all ministers and all German security agencies to do what the Chinese dictator wants.

    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1583039861447331840

    There is a peculiar strain of extreme mercantilism in a part of German politics. Trade is all, and somehow thinking about strategic implications is bad….
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295
    MattW said:

    Out of historical interest, when was the first incident of an undersea cable being cut in war?

    The earliest I know of was somebody cutting all the German owned cables in the Channel in 1914.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42367551

    Were there any earlier occurrences?

    The very first transatlantic cable, while it was being laid, was sabotaged by nails being driven through it.

    Gooch and the Great Eastern's captain turned up all hands, said what had happened, and said that the cable had been repaired so they could go forward.

    They also said that if they caught anyone doing that again, that person could find out how far they could swim, viz whether they could swim back to Ireland.

    Strangely, they had no further trouble on that score.
  • Driver said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    Russian drivers, don't worry if the Kerch bridge is out of action. It is only a short diversion.

    The 985km detour map posted by the Kerch bridge.

    https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1582997402797379584

    Isn't that route within range of Ukrainian artillery as well?
    It's a contemporary battlefield tour. Money back if not satisfied!
    During the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol.

    Thomas Cook ran tours of the Boer War battlefields before the conflict was ended.
    Weren’t there ghouls visiting Flanders in 1919 to see corpses being extracted from collapsed trenches? Also a Thomas Cook product I believe.
    The telly was pretty boring in them days.
    Morning all.

    I still have heard very much about the Ben Wallace / Lloyd Austin conversations from last week.

    What *were* they talking about?

    (Recall that it was US/UK/Ua war games that scoped the current Ukranian offensive.)
    Wallace is giving a statement to the Commons today. Probably quite soon.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1583012259172741121
    Any odds on HIM resigning?

    Would appear in best interests of UKR as well as UK, to have a functioning government in Westminster ASAP.

    Just when things look bleakest for Putin, the Tories are throwing him a lifeline, just like the Trump-Putinists.
    Provided HMG can keep on paying the bills the crisis in the rest of the government doesn't seem to be causing any particular difficulties for the MoD or the provision of support to Ukraine by the UK.

    I wouldn't want Liz Truss to be making important decisions if the Russians are cutting our subsea cables, or do vindicate Leon's wildest fears.

    Wallace will see it as his duty to stay in his post and do his job.
    Liz Truss in her last (perhaps for all time?) PMQs pledged to maintain MILITARY aid to UKR at current levels (how reassuring!) but rather pointedly said NOTHING about non-military aid, which is clearly just as significant.
    What she said is:

    We must make sure that Ukraine wins. It can win, it will win, and it must win.

    Your attempts to cast some doubt on her - and the UK's - support for Ukraine are laughable.
    Truss may THINK she's supporting the UKR, but then she likely thinks she's supporting the UK.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited October 2022

    @NadineDorries
    One person was elected by the British public with a manifesto and a mandate until January ‘25.
    If Liz Truss is no longer PM there can be no coronation of previously failed candidates.

    MPs must demand return of @BorisJohnson - if not it has to be leadership election or a GE.

    It is inconceivable that we could continue to face the world parading the notion that we are a democracy.

    A coronation is the transfer of power out of the hands of the people and into the offices of a few already extremely powerful men in grey suits. It would be an abomination


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1583033679990861825

    I wonder how many Tories would join Ms Dorries in crashing the party if they cannot have Boris back?

    Or is this just a "frighten the horses" variation using a GE rather than the Farage bogeyman.
This discussion has been closed.