Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
I stick to my view that it won't happen until the MPs can see a way clear to installing a new leader without involving the membership. The party is in the middle of a civil war so I just don't see how that can be achieved.
Very hard for Truss. Control has very much gone from her, and the worse thing is that the somewhat inevitable poll recovery will be credited to the presence of rat eyes.
She needs big policy announcements, and this will be tricky, given that Hunt and the Treasury penny-pinchers may try to scuttle such notions.
Rees Mogg at BEIS is an ally and may work with her on some key announcements, particularly on energy liberalisation, which I think Hunt would struggle to interfere with in the current circs.
I would suggest that firstly, she sticks to Hunt like glue. It's very hard that she'll be treated as the unwanted dinner guest, but she needs to monitor everything going on at the Treasury and be a part of anything positive. A wider reshuffle might help, to (carefully) attempt to install some of her own people there.
She also needs to go out and meet the public and the media, even if she gets rotten tomatoes thrown at her. She is still a very new PM. The public respect guts.
If she manages survival, she'll still be PM when Hunt is as popular as a dogshit sandwich, and she'll be able to sack him.
Truss is never going to be in the position you suggest - indeed she will be out of office very shortly
Wonder who's playing the role made (in)famous by Al Haig?
AND supporting prayer-circle worshiper, the Blessed Henry the K?
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.
Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.
You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
I'm on Newsnight, pillock!
And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
It's a bit fucking bonkers that before anyone visits PB they first need to check the BBC News website just in case their first post is something along the lines of I expect her to go by next Feb only to be told that she actually resigned 45 minutes ago.
For the BBC to get the news on the website within 45 minutes of anything happening would be remarkable. If you want fast news and are willing to take the 10% gamble that it’s wrong, try Sky.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Not this one - this is 100% Truss and Kwarteng though on this evidence the membership should never be trusted to elect the leader of the conservative party again
If there are MPs who want to reverse the u-turn they need to act now. If there are ones who don't, then really they need to see if it works first. If it does, Hunt suddenly becomes the favourite a little down the line. So anyone who wants their chance to takeover also needs to act now.
Has there ever be a bigger bucket of ice cold water of reality pitched over a PM's head than Hunt delivered today? Voodoo Truss economics drowned like kittens in a sack in a single half hour.
Look at the Telegraph:
You know that Jim Callaghan nailed it:
We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.
Countercyclical fiscal policies are fine if you managed to balance the books during the good times. All the po-faced pricks pouring scorn on Truss's attempts to avert recession are the same ones behind QE and low interest rates and the debasement of the currency. The damage was done over the course of decades, not (poorly presented and mistimed as it was) during one speech.
Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
I stick to my view that it won't happen until the MPs can see a way clear to installing a new leader without involving the membership. The party is in the middle of a civil war so I just don't see how that can be achieved.
Never doubt the ability of a crisis to concentrate minds.
I agree that they're not moving until they are confident in a successor. But I have little doubt the background work is going on. Wallace appears to have ruled himself out this evening. I think Hunt will find it difficult to shift from the Treasury right now. The longer-odds candidates (Gove, May, Boris) seem to have been ruled out. So in all likelihood we are looking at whether the BoJo die-hards are able to stomach Rishi, or whether Penny will be settled on as a compromise.
Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.
Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.
You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
I'm on Newsnight, pillock!
And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears
to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
The Moggster isn’t particularly rightwing for a Tory a far as I know. He is a useless clown and a caricature of himself, but that’s something rather different.
Philip Davies is a hard right winger, I’m told, as is that bloke who believes upskirting should have remained legal.
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
Rubbish. We took back control when we voted to leave the EU. Didn't we? I mean that's what they told us.
What is Truss's blinking thing about? Is it just extreme stress?
High blink rates are usually associated with stress, anxiety and tension. She could be on the edge of tears as well and is probably very much on edge. Combined with the other reports about changing phone numbers and such, she cannot be feeling very well.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
The whole Truss interview is deeply uncomfortable. She is useless, yes, but I am not sure putting us all through this charade is fair on her. She must be absolutely exhausted
I would have more sympathy if this was not entirely her own bloody fault. Nobody made her stand as leader, kiss hands, and tank the economy. She wanted all this, and now she's got it.
Oh I agree. But that doesn’t stop the whole thing feeling horrible on a basic human level. She thought she was genuinely good. Her whole career built up to this moment. Now tarnished.
I don't know whether you fancy yourself a subtle penman, but you're not. Nobody reading this is going to think you're feeling anything 'on a basic human level' - you're enjoying a victorious wank at what you perceive to be the humiliation of a political opponent. The same goes for the other multitude of posters 'feeling this on a basic human level' - I think it's fair to say 'fuck off' on Truss's behalf.
Thoughts are with you at this difficult time @Luckyguy1983. Your entire political philosophy has been shown to be a heap of caustic junk.
Ok, fair enough, that first sentence is totally insincere. The second is genuine though.
The pain that Truss's mad experiment is going to cause millions of people across the country deserves little sympathy towards those who have promoted and supported her.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
Unfortunately Truss is now just an object of pity, that is worse than being hated, you can be hated but grudgingly respected but once you have got to the stage of being pitied all respect for you has gone
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.
Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.
You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
I'm on Newsnight, pillock!
And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears
to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
The Moggster isn’t particularly rightwing for a Tory a far as I know. He is a useless clown and a caricature of himself, but that’s something rather different.
Philip Davies is a hard right winger, I’m told, as is that bloke who believes upskirting should have remained legal.
Andrew Rosindell. Far too far-right for the Tories, but they put up with him.
Re: Daily Mail, at Liz Truss can take some comfort in fact that New York Post is still featuring Piers Morgan denouncing Biden for dissing her fiscal "plans".
Not much, of course. Cause Murdoch & Son are into boosting Republicans in US mid-terms, more than helping the Tories OR (especially) Liz Truss in UK.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
Polly Mackenzie @pollymackenzie · 1h The good news is that no one will try libertarian bullshit again for at least 20 years.
Can I introduce you to Suella Braverman?
Suella Braverman is a social conservative nationalist, not a libertarian other than on economics
Yes. Like Putin, another social conservative nationalist?
Who is also President of Russia. Name one pure libertarian who has got elected President or PM of any major country in the last 25 years? Goldwater was the closest the US had to a pure libertarian Presidential candidate and was crushed by LBJ in 1964. Truss is, or was until her u turns, the most pure libertarian PM and party leader we have had yet and will probably be the last, certainly for a generation
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
I'm not sure I agree that they thought that deficits didn't matter. I suspect it was a belief that the tax cuts would in effect pay for themselves through higher growth. Obviously the OBR didn't agree with their 'optimistic' growth forecast so they had no way of making the figures add up. The markets put two and two together and came up with higher borrowing. Gordon Brown had a similar issue. He was reluctant to consider medium term spending cuts after 2008 because he thought the Treasury was being too negative in its growth projections and the cuts wouldn't be needed. I suspect a lot of politicians are prone to thinking that way as it means they can avoid difficult decisions.
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
I think if there is another pandemic furlough has to be off the table now. Businesses have to try and keep running and if they lose money so be it. That also means of course no govt can order a lockdown again
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
"Reagan showed deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney
That's what voodoo economists and cheap-jack politicos have tattooed on their hearts.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health
It needs to happen now
Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.
Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.
You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
I'm on Newsnight, pillock!
And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
Charlie Elphick'e ex seems to me to be off the scale. Although when Suella is in play it is not worth looking any further afield.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
The positive I am choosing to draw from all this is that for the first time in a very long time, it is likely the Labour Party are going to come to power at a time where the economic situation is not benign and they will have the choice of either making difficult choices or engaging in Trussian fantasy.
If they go with the former, then they will go some way to reconciling themselves with the fact that sound money is an important tenet of fiscal policy. Which would be a great result IMHO.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
So who would you like to see in power?
None of them really, so I'll do my usual vote for the least bad. What I'd really like is something like Orange Book liberals, but Eurosceptic, with Paddy in charge, and they had better be in favour of a full Trident replacement.
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
"Reagan showed deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney
That's what voodoo economists and cheap-jack politicos have tattooed on their hearts.
The UK needs:
1) To bin the planning laws. 2) Ditch the NHS. 3) Open immigration massively. 4) Quite frankly conquer more land. 5) Have everyone fix their mortgages for 30 years at the start of the term.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.
They have no good options now Sunak will titalky divide the party Hunt is unacceptable to them Maybe they should just call a GE and lose it hoping that they have 100 to 150 seats at the end
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
The clear implication is that the detail of implementing her policies was left to Kwarteng to sort out. Hence his sacking.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.
They have no good options now Sunak will titalky divide the party Hunt is unacceptable to them Maybe they should just call a GE and lose it hoping that they have 100 to 150 seats at the end
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
So who would you like to see in power?
None of them really, so I'll do my usual vote for the least bad. What I'd really like is something like Orange Book liberals, but Eurosceptic, with Paddy in charge, and they had better be in favour of a full Trident replacement.
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
I think if there is another pandemic furlough has to be off the table now. Businesses have to try and keep running and if they lose money so be it. That also means of course no govt can order a lockdown again
I think you've hit on a good point which is that people have been led to believe that the government can wave a magic wand and solve all their financial problems, if only those nasty people in government willed it to be so.
(Anecdote alert) I have heard someone say in the past week - well, if mortgage rates get too high the government will have to step in and make up the difference.
This is the byproduct of the decisions of the past few years. Instead of offering targeted support the government has been all too quick to rush out blanket 'solutions' that amount to writing blank cheques. The media need to take a more balanced and critical view of this IMHO, rather than constantly screaming for 'support'.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting did indeed enable Brexit.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
Because, who needs experts, innit?
About 99.46% of the rap against her by insiders during the Tory "Leadership" campaign, was that, once she'd made up her mind, she was impervious, indeed downright hostile, to further advice, input, caveats, warnings, etc., etc.
I think you've hit on a good point which is that people have been led to believe that the government can wave a magic wand and solve all their financial problems, if only those nasty people in government willed it to be so.
(Anecdote alert) I have heard someone say in the past week - well, if mortgage rates get too high the government will have to step in and make up the difference.
This is the byproduct of the decisions of the past few years. Instead of offering targeted support the government has been all too quick to rush out blanket 'solutions' that amount to writing blank cheques. The media need to take a more balanced and critical view of this IMHO, rather than constantly screaming for 'support'.
There was a coffee shop owner on the radio earlier who not only wanted help with energy bills but thought the goverment should eliminate business rates to help her out. She was pretty close to arguing that if her business — a coffee shop mind — might lose money the government should step in. I'm not sure she grasped the whole idea of free enterprise.
PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror
“The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”
The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion
i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup
Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.
Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.
Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
There is no conspiracy.
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
I'm not sure I agree that they thought that deficits didn't matter. I suspect it was a belief that the tax cuts would in effect pay for themselves through higher growth. Obviously the OBR didn't agree with their 'optimistic' growth forecast so they had no way of making the figures add up. The markets put two and two together and came up with higher borrowing. Gordon Brown had a similar issue. He was reluctant to consider medium term spending cuts after 2008 because he thought the Treasury was being too negative in its growth projections and the cuts wouldn't be needed. I suspect a lot of politicians are prone to thinking that way as it means they can avoid difficult decisions.
I thought the general idea was that as long as the economy was growing faster than your debt then you were ok.
Truss/Kwarteng found themselves in a vicious cycle where they couldn't demonstrate that they could boost growth to cover that new debt, interest rates spiked, and the level of growth required to service the debt ended up being even higher than in the first place.
What's a bit sad is that we had an opportunity to really dig into why growth has been so slow since 2008 and we've blown it.
So they think somebody's gonna chop Lindsey Graham up into more conveniently-sized sections?
Works for me! (Metaphorically speaking)
After all, in South Carolina for many years, the most productive portion of the (male) population, was only worth 0.6 votes per head. Though they were NOT burdened with casting 'em themselves; Lindsay's great-great-great-granddaddy kindly did it for them.
ALASTAIR CAMPBELL @campbellclaret · 1h . @ChrisMasonBBC doing a good job in this interview … the same cannot he said for @trussliz … she just cannot do this job. Sorry but she can’t. It is awful to watch
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror
“The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”
The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion
Yes i was reading an article in an indian newspaper saying that was Putins plan also he wants to degrade ukrainian supply lines
I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.
I'm very much hoping that things move in the next 24-72 hours. If they don't, then they have a death wish.
I doubt Starmer can believe his good luck:
- Truss determined to cling on. - The Tory party unable to steel itself to eject her. - The catastrophic neoliberal policies have been ditched so... - ...the economy may not be totally shafted by the time La Truss leads the Tories to electoral oblivion. - Two years of Labour-lite policies are all this zombie government will be able to implement.
Meanwhile Starmer can sit back and let the Tories keep scoring in their own goal.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.
And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
Considering nobody is going to be stupid enough to loan votes to a Corbynite candidate to "widen the debate ever again", they are finished and a complete irrelevance.
I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.
I'm very much hoping that things move in the next 24-72 hours. If they don't, then they have a death wish.
I doubt Starmer can believe his good luck:
- Truss determined to cling on. - The Tory party unable to steel itself to eject her. - The catastrophic neoliberal policies have been ditched so... - ...the economy may not be totally shafted by the time La Truss leads the Tories to electoral oblivion. - Two years of Labour-lite policies are all this zombie government will be able to implement.
Meanwhile Starmer can sit back and let the Tories keep scoring in their own goal.
Without the support of the mail or sun truss will find it difficult
PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror
“The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”
The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion
Yes i was reading an article in an indian newspaper saying that was Putins plan also he wants to degrade ukrainian supply lines
Degrading the supply lines would certainly be more effective militarily but that appears to be beyond them. That leaves hitting civilian targets which is so easy even the Russian military can do it. The great bear looks more and more like a petty terrorist such as Hamas.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.
And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
If Truss does go of the 3 above it would almost certainly be Sunak who takes over as PM instead.
His job would just be to save the furniture, it is unlikely he would actually win the next general election
Has there ever be a bigger bucket of ice cold water of reality pitched over a PM's head than Hunt delivered today? Voodoo Truss economics drowned like kittens in a sack in a single half hour.
Look at the Telegraph:
You know that Jim Callaghan nailed it:
We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.
Countercyclical fiscal policies are fine if you managed to balance the books during the good times. All the po-faced pricks pouring scorn on Truss's attempts to avert recession are the same ones behind QE and low interest rates and the debasement of the currency. The damage was done over the course of decades, not (poorly presented and mistimed as it was) during one speech.
Hang on - what was the currency debased against? Euro? Dollar? Or is this screed just nonsense? Because the only huge depreciations of sterling in the last decade were caused by Brexit and Truss.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
Considering nobody is going to be stupid enough to loan votes to a Corbynite candidate to "widen the debate ever again", they are finished and a complete irrelevance.
There are still dozens of constituency labour parties where Corbynism holds sway. While Starmer may have purged some of the madder elements from the PLP, if Labour double their number of MPs that will presumably include a lot of Corbynites.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less
likely to do so for Sunak
So you are saying that the Hunt would become the hunted?
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting did indeed enable Brexit.
I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.
Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.
They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting
did indeed enable Brexit.
…a Scotsman flaps his wings in the Strangers’ Bar…
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less
likely to do so for Sunak
So you are saying that the Hunt would become the hunted?
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
You can be in office but not in power.
I'm not sure why you're so paranoid about Farage but he's also called Sunak a fraud, and Hunt isn't likely to do anything on European policy that would trigger a Farage revival.
What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.
And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
If Truss does go of the 3 above it would almost certainly be Sunak who takes over as PM instead.
His job would just be to save the furniture, it is unlikely he would actually win the next general election
You sound down and are not thinking straight. I am convinced Sunak is weaker this evening than he was this morning. The Conservatives might not win the next election, although I believe it will be close, and they may crawl over the line. That being so as @MarqueeMark has pointed out the Conservative plan is to scorch the earth so Labour can only fail. That means in January 2030 you get a stonking majority, hopefully with someone sensible as PM. Someone sensible is someone who has spent a lifetime steering clear of the ERG.
What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
It sounds brutal but if it’s all getting too much for her she should just walk away . No one is forcing her to remain in post .
Her apology is going to mean zip to people who have suffered because of her mini budget disaster . How many lost their dreams of owning their home , how many are going to be struggling to pay their mortgages etc .
The public can accept global events causing problems , they won’t accept a PM who decided to pour petrol on that fire .
What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
You can be in office but not in power.
I'm not sure why you're so paranoid about Farage but he's also called Sunak a fraud, and Hunt isn't likely to do anything on European policy that would trigger a Farage reviv al.
What Farage has said about Hunt tonight
'@GBNEWS · 3h 'The country is being run by the pro-Chinese Communist Party, Remainer, high-taxer, big-stater Jeremy Hunt.'
@Nigel_Farage answers people's questions on Barrage the Farage.
Guess where there won't be a "Just Stop oil" protest from Phoebe and Marcus.
They will be strangely quiet about all the music stars who have flown in on private jets....and that they last saw such and such star play a festival in South America while on their gap yaaaaah.
What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
I see that. But, arguably, German policy under Merkel has led directly to this war. And the slaughter of hundreds of thousands. And potential nuclear war
It’s ok for her to say “it made sense at the time” - but even then - at the time - she had people like Trump saying “No don’t do this it’s dangerous, Putin is dangerous”
And for her to not even express regrets and say sorry NOW is despicable. Fuck her. Almost as bad as Schroeder
Eabhal says: "If you take every post on PB 100% seriously you'll go insane. You should see some of the stuff Leon comes out with."
Oh, I understand that, of course. But if you want to think accurately for betting, or for any other reason, you should avoid such nonsense, unless you follow it with, for example, an emoji to show you are joking.
And there is a cost to this kind of nonsense. Our enemies -- and we have some extremely nasty ones -- want to see us divided as much as possible. And this kind of nonsense helps, in a small way, to divide us.
What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
I see that. But, arguably, German policy under Merkel has led directly to this war. And the slaughter of hundreds of thousands. And potential nuclear war
It’s ok for her to say “it made sense at the time” - but even then - at the time - she had people like Trump saying “No don’t do this it’s dangerous, Putin is dangerous”
And for her to not even express regrets and say sorry NOW is despicable. Fuck her. Almost as bad as Schroeder
German voters are as much to blame as Merkel for becoming dependent on Russian energy. In a democracy people get the politicians they deserve.
Comments
AND supporting prayer-circle worshiper, the Blessed Henry the K?
Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.
Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.
The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.
Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.
What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
It helps if you surround yourself with good ministers and not just nodding lapdogs !
Who lost her seat.
I agree that they're not moving until they are confident in a successor. But I have little doubt the background work is going on. Wallace appears to have ruled himself out this evening. I think Hunt will find it difficult to shift from the Treasury right now. The longer-odds candidates (Gove, May, Boris) seem to have been ruled out. So in all likelihood we are looking at whether the BoJo die-hards are able to stomach Rishi, or whether Penny will be settled on as a compromise.
This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.
The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
The Moggster isn’t particularly rightwing for a Tory a far as I know. He is a useless clown and a caricature of himself, but that’s something rather different.
Philip Davies is a hard right winger, I’m told, as is that bloke who believes upskirting should have remained legal.
As a Democrat, hate a Democratic skunk and/or fuckup more than a Republican one. Cause the stench is doubly bad.
Ok, fair enough, that first sentence is totally insincere. The second is genuine though.
The pain that Truss's mad experiment is going to cause millions of people across the country deserves little sympathy towards those who have promoted and supported her.
Not much, of course. Cause Murdoch & Son are into boosting Republicans in US mid-terms, more than helping the Tories OR (especially) Liz Truss in UK.
That's what voodoo economists and cheap-jack politicos have tattooed on their hearts.
If they go with the former, then they will go some way to reconciling themselves with the fact that sound money is an important tenet of fiscal policy. Which would be a great result IMHO.
1) To bin the planning laws.
2) Ditch the NHS.
3) Open immigration massively.
4) Quite frankly conquer more land.
5) Have everyone fix their mortgages for 30 years at the start of the term.
Then it can run an eternal economic deficit.
Sunak will titalky divide the party
Hunt is unacceptable to them
Maybe they should just call a GE and lose it hoping that they have 100 to 150 seats at the end
(Anecdote alert) I have heard someone say in the past week - well, if mortgage rates get too high the government will have to step in and make up the difference.
This is the byproduct of the decisions of the past few years. Instead of offering targeted support the government has been all too quick to rush out blanket 'solutions' that amount to writing blank cheques. The media need to take a more balanced and critical view of this IMHO, rather than constantly screaming for 'support'.
" the conservative party is about power or it is about nothing"
The end result is the pathetic husk we see now
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/
“The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/17/fear-kyiv-deadly-kamikaze-drones-rain-down-ukraine
The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion
Truss/Kwarteng found themselves in a vicious cycle where they couldn't demonstrate that they could boost growth to cover that new debt, interest rates spiked, and the level of growth required to service the debt ended up being even higher than in the first place.
What's a bit sad is that we had an opportunity to really dig into why growth has been so slow since 2008 and we've blown it.
Works for me! (Metaphorically speaking)
After all, in South Carolina for many years, the most productive portion of the (male) population, was only worth 0.6 votes per head. Though they were NOT burdened with casting 'em themselves; Lindsay's great-great-great-granddaddy kindly did it for them.
@campbellclaret
·
1h
.
@ChrisMasonBBC
doing a good job in this interview … the same cannot he said for
@trussliz
… she just cannot do this job. Sorry but she can’t. It is awful to watch
Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
- Truss determined to cling on.
- The Tory party unable to steel itself to eject her.
- The catastrophic neoliberal policies have been ditched so...
- ...the economy may not be totally shafted by the time La Truss leads the Tories to electoral oblivion.
- Two years of Labour-lite policies are all this zombie government will be able to implement.
Meanwhile Starmer can sit back and let the Tories keep scoring in their own goal.
And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
Surely the tories couldn’t poll in the single digits?
His job would just be to save the furniture, it is unlikely he would actually win the next general election
So you are saying that the Hunt would become the hunted?
…a Scotsman flaps his wings in the Strangers’ Bar…
Conservative MPs are more loathsome than, for example, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge?
And the Uighurs could give you a current example.
I'm not sure why you're so paranoid about Farage but he's also called Sunak a fraud, and Hunt isn't likely to do anything on European policy that would trigger a Farage revival.
“LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/
Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/putin-merkel-meeting-dog-2017-7?amp
It sounds brutal but if it’s all getting too much for her she should just walk away . No one is forcing her to remain in post .
Her apology is going to mean zip to people who have suffered because of her mini budget disaster . How many lost their dreams of owning their home , how many are going to be struggling to pay their mortgages etc .
The public can accept global events causing problems , they won’t accept a PM who decided to pour petrol on that fire .
'@GBNEWS
·
3h
'The country is being run by the pro-Chinese Communist Party, Remainer, high-taxer, big-stater Jeremy Hunt.'
@Nigel_Farage answers people's questions on Barrage the Farage.
Glastonbury 2023: Tickets for festival rise to £340
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-63293947
It’s ok for her to say “it made sense at the time” - but even then - at the time - she had people like Trump saying “No don’t do this it’s dangerous, Putin is dangerous”
And for her to not even express regrets and say sorry NOW is despicable. Fuck her. Almost as bad as Schroeder
Oh, I understand that, of course. But if you want to think accurately for betting, or for any other reason, you should avoid such nonsense, unless you follow it with, for example, an emoji to show you are joking.
And there is a cost to this kind of nonsense. Our enemies -- and we have some extremely nasty ones -- want to see us divided as much as possible. And this kind of nonsense helps, in a small way, to divide us.