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Sunak remains favourite to succeed Truss as PM – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,795

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    I stick to my view that it won't happen until the MPs can see a way clear to installing a new leader without involving the membership. The party is in the middle of a civil war so I just don't see how that can be achieved.
  • Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    I share your anger
  • Very hard for Truss. Control has very much gone from her, and the worse thing is that the somewhat inevitable poll recovery will be credited to the presence of rat eyes.

    She needs big policy announcements, and this will be tricky, given that Hunt and the Treasury penny-pinchers may try to scuttle such notions.

    Rees Mogg at BEIS is an ally and may work with her on some key announcements, particularly on energy liberalisation, which I think Hunt would struggle to interfere with in the current circs.

    I would suggest that firstly, she sticks to Hunt like glue. It's very hard that she'll be treated as the unwanted dinner guest, but she needs to monitor everything going on at the Treasury and be a part of anything positive. A wider reshuffle might help, to (carefully) attempt to install some of her own people there.

    She also needs to go out and meet the public and the media, even if she gets rotten tomatoes thrown at her. She is still a very new PM. The public respect guts.

    If she manages survival, she'll still be PM when Hunt is as popular as a dogshit sandwich, and she'll be able to sack him.

    Truss is never going to be in the position you suggest - indeed she will be out of office very shortly
    Wonder who's playing the role made (in)famous by Al Haig?

    AND supporting prayer-circle worshiper, the Blessed Henry the K?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,279
    HYUFD said:


    Polly Mackenzie
    @pollymackenzie
    ·
    1h
    The good news is that no one will try libertarian bullshit again for at least 20 years.

    Can I introduce you to Suella Braverman?
    Suella Braverman is a social conservative nationalist, not a libertarian other than on economics
    What's that? A 5% position?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,490
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
    I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,624
    Too much is made of needing lots of experience to be PM .

    It helps if you surround yourself with good ministers and not just nodding lapdogs !
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    edited October 2022
    TOPPING said:

    It's a bit fucking bonkers that before anyone visits PB they first need to check the BBC News website just in case their first post is something along the lines of I expect her to go by next Feb only to be told that she actually resigned 45 minutes ago.

    For the BBC to get the news on the website within 45 minutes of anything happening would be remarkable. If you want fast news and are willing to take the 10% gamble that it’s wrong, try Sky.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,751
    HYUFD said:


    Polly Mackenzie
    @pollymackenzie
    ·
    1h
    The good news is that no one will try libertarian bullshit again for at least 20 years.

    Can I introduce you to Suella Braverman?
    Suella Braverman is a social conservative nationalist, not a libertarian other than on economics
    Yes. Like Putin, another social conservative nationalist?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,490
    If there are MPs who want to reverse the u-turn they need to act now. If there are ones who don't, then really they need to see if it works first. If it does, Hunt suddenly becomes the favourite a little down the line. So anyone who wants their chance to takeover also needs to act now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251

    The "I will lead us into next election" interview while looking broken is the final straw surely?

    The letters to Brady will be off the scale tomorrow.

    I will lead us to hold all three safest seats more like.

    She is even more bonkers about the scale of her ambitions than "Prime Minster" Jo Swinson.

    Who lost her seat.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,363
    rcs1000 said:

    Has there ever be a bigger bucket of ice cold water of reality pitched over a PM's head than Hunt delivered today? Voodoo Truss economics drowned like kittens in a sack in a single half hour.


    Look at the Telegraph:


    You know that Jim Callaghan nailed it:

    We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.
    Countercyclical fiscal policies are fine if you managed to balance the books during the good times. All the po-faced pricks pouring scorn on Truss's attempts to avert recession are the same ones behind QE and low interest rates and the debasement of the currency. The damage was done over the course of decades, not (poorly presented and mistimed as it was) during one speech.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196
    OllyT said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    I stick to my view that it won't happen until the MPs can see a way clear to installing a new leader without involving the membership. The party is in the middle of a civil war so I just don't see how that can be achieved.
    Never doubt the ability of a crisis to concentrate minds.

    I agree that they're not moving until they are confident in a successor. But I have little doubt the background work is going on. Wallace appears to have ruled himself out this evening. I think Hunt will find it difficult to shift from the Treasury right now. The longer-odds candidates (Gove, May, Boris) seem to have been ruled out. So in all likelihood we are looking at whether the BoJo die-hards are able to stomach Rishi, or whether Penny will be settled on as a compromise.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850
    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,751
    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
    I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears


    to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.

    The Moggster isn’t particularly rightwing for a Tory a far as I know. He is a useless clown and a caricature of himself, but that’s something rather different.

    Philip Davies is a hard right winger, I’m told, as is that bloke who believes upskirting should have remained legal.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    Rubbish. We took back control when we voted to leave the EU. Didn't we? I mean that's what they told us.
  • Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    You've got a point, for damn sure. And can emphasis.

    As a Democrat, hate a Democratic skunk and/or fuckup more than a Republican one. Cause the stench is doubly bad.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,419
    edited October 2022

    What is Truss's blinking thing about? Is it just extreme stress?

    High blink rates are usually associated with stress, anxiety and tension. She could be on the edge of tears as well and is probably very much on edge. Combined with the other reports about changing phone numbers and such, she cannot be feeling very well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,490
    nico679 said:

    Too much is made of needing lots of experience to be PM .

    It helps if you surround yourself with good ministers and not just nodding lapdogs !

    Worth remembering the only candidate in the Tory leadership contest with more experience than Truss was...Hunt.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,869

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,582

    mwadams said:

    The whole Truss interview is deeply uncomfortable. She is useless, yes, but I am not sure putting us all through this charade is fair on her. She must be absolutely exhausted

    I would have more sympathy if this was not entirely her own bloody fault. Nobody made her stand as leader, kiss hands, and tank the economy. She wanted all this, and now she's got it.
    Oh I agree. But that doesn’t stop the whole thing feeling horrible on a basic human level. She thought she was genuinely good. Her whole career built up to this moment. Now tarnished.
    I don't know whether you fancy yourself a subtle penman, but you're not. Nobody reading this is going to think you're feeling anything 'on a basic human level' - you're enjoying a victorious wank at what you perceive to be the humiliation of a political opponent. The same goes for the other multitude of posters 'feeling this on a basic human level' - I think it's fair to say 'fuck off' on Truss's behalf.
    Thoughts are with you at this difficult time @Luckyguy1983. Your entire political philosophy has been shown to be a heap of caustic junk.

    Ok, fair enough, that first sentence is totally insincere. The second is genuine though.

    The pain that Truss's mad experiment is going to cause millions of people across the country deserves little sympathy towards those who have promoted and supported her.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited October 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    Unfortunately Truss is now just an object of pity, that is worse than being hated, you can be hated but grudgingly respected but once you have got to the stage of being pitied all respect for you has gone
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,582
    glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    So who would you like to see in power?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,112
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,751

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
    I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears


    to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.

    The Moggster isn’t particularly rightwing for a Tory a far as I know. He is a useless clown and a caricature of himself, but that’s something rather different.

    Philip Davies is a hard right winger, I’m told, as is that bloke who believes upskirting should have remained legal.
    Andrew Rosindell. Far too far-right for the Tories, but they put up with him.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    edited October 2022
    Re: Daily Mail, at Liz Truss can take some comfort in fact that New York Post is still featuring Piers Morgan denouncing Biden for dissing her fiscal "plans".

    Not much, of course. Cause Murdoch & Son are into boosting Republicans in US mid-terms, more than helping the Tories OR (especially) Liz Truss in UK.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,169
    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited October 2022

    HYUFD said:


    Polly Mackenzie
    @pollymackenzie
    ·
    1h
    The good news is that no one will try libertarian bullshit again for at least 20 years.

    Can I introduce you to Suella Braverman?
    Suella Braverman is a social conservative nationalist, not a libertarian other than on economics
    Yes. Like Putin, another social conservative nationalist?
    Who is also President of Russia. Name one pure libertarian who has got elected President or PM of any major country in the last 25 years? Goldwater was the closest the US had to a pure libertarian Presidential candidate and was crushed by LBJ in 1964. Truss is, or was until her u turns, the most pure libertarian PM and party leader we have had yet and will probably be the last, certainly for a generation
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,279
    edited October 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    I'm not sure I agree that they thought that deficits didn't matter. I suspect it was a belief that the tax cuts would in effect pay for themselves through higher growth. Obviously the OBR didn't agree with their 'optimistic' growth forecast so they had no way of making the figures add up. The markets put two and two together and came up with higher borrowing. Gordon Brown had a similar issue. He was reluctant to consider medium term spending cuts after 2008 because he thought the Treasury was being too negative in its growth projections and the cuts wouldn't be needed. I suspect a lot of politicians are prone to thinking that way as it means they can avoid difficult decisions.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,978

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    I share your anger
    Surely not. You appear a picture of serenity BigG.
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    I think if there is another pandemic furlough has to be off the table now. Businesses have to try and keep running and if they lose money so be it. That also means of course no govt can order a lockdown again
  • Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
    "Reagan showed deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney

    That's what voodoo economists and cheap-jack politicos have tattooed on their hearts.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
    Because, who needs experts, innit?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
    Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,978
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not even the Mail is in her corner

    Her mps have to act and bring an end to this dreadful saga and not least for Truss's own mental health

    It needs to happen now
    Well, Daily Mail, by running Frosties wrecking ball on Mordaunt, you own this Trussterfuck.

    Fuck off - and take your peerage hopes with you.

    You are very angry this evening. Why not try turning off GBNews?
    I'm on Newsnight, pillock!

    And as a life-long Tory, if I can't be angry this week, then when???
    Probably in a couple of weeks when Mogg or Braverman challenge a more centrist candidate and win.
    I just googled who was the most right wing Tory MP, and the internet's go to answer appears to be Mogg, though I suspect there are far more hard right ones.
    Charlie Elphick'e ex seems to me to be off the scale. Although when Suella is in play it is not worth looking any further afield.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196
    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    The positive I am choosing to draw from all this is that for the first time in a very long time, it is likely the Labour Party are going to come to power at a time where the economic situation is not benign and they will have the choice of either making difficult choices or engaging in Trussian fantasy.

    If they go with the former, then they will go some way to reconciling themselves with the fact that sound money is an important tenet of fiscal policy. Which would be a great result IMHO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited October 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,751
    edited October 2022
    glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    You can add Martin Lewis Off The Telly to your list - was in the firing line this morning
  • glwglw Posts: 8,869

    glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    So who would you like to see in power?
    None of them really, so I'll do my usual vote for the least bad. What I'd really like is something like Orange Book liberals, but Eurosceptic, with Paddy in charge, and they had better be in favour of a full Trident replacement.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    That last sentence should be tattooed across the forehead of every politician who appears on TV.
    "Reagan showed deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney

    That's what voodoo economists and cheap-jack politicos have tattooed on their hearts.
    The UK needs:

    1) To bin the planning laws.
    2) Ditch the NHS.
    3) Open immigration massively.
    4) Quite frankly conquer more land.
    5) Have everyone fix their mortgages for 30 years at the start of the term.

    Then it can run an eternal economic deficit.
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146

    I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.

    They have no good options now
    Sunak will titalky divide the party
    Hunt is unacceptable to them
    Maybe they should just call a GE and lose it hoping that they have 100 to 150 seats at the end
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
    The clear implication is that the detail of implementing her policies was left to Kwarteng to sort out. Hence his sacking.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,751
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
    Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
    No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    ihunt said:

    I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.

    They have no good options now
    Sunak will titalky divide the party
    Hunt is unacceptable to them
    Maybe they should just call a GE and lose it hoping that they have 100 to 150 seats at the end
    Cock
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,582
    glw said:

    glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    So who would you like to see in power?
    None of them really, so I'll do my usual vote for the least bad. What I'd really like is something like Orange Book liberals, but Eurosceptic, with Paddy in charge, and they had better be in favour of a full Trident replacement.
    You may be a niche voter ;-)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196
    ihunt said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    I think if there is another pandemic furlough has to be off the table now. Businesses have to try and keep running and if they lose money so be it. That also means of course no govt can order a lockdown again
    I think you've hit on a good point which is that people have been led to believe that the government can wave a magic wand and solve all their financial problems, if only those nasty people in government willed it to be so.

    (Anecdote alert) I have heard someone say in the past week - well, if mortgage rates get too high the government will have to step in and make up the difference.

    This is the byproduct of the decisions of the past few years. Instead of offering targeted support the government has been all too quick to rush out blanket 'solutions' that amount to writing blank cheques. The media need to take a more balanced and critical view of this IMHO, rather than constantly screaming for 'support'.
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    There was the old saying
    " the conservative party is about power or it is about nothing"
    The end result is the pathetic husk we see now
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That's a stupendously low standard. Even by MY stupendously low standards!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
    Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
    No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
    I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting did indeed enable Brexit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,388
    538's forecast for the Senate is now 50.4 seats for the Democrats, and Nevada is projected to be a dead heat.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/
  • IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    I haven't seen the interview, but trusting your judgement on this, the obvious question arises - how on Earth did she manage to make such a huge mistake as to announce tax cuts without the OBR forecast to show that it was okay?
    Because, who needs experts, innit?
    About 99.46% of the rap against her by insiders during the Tory "Leadership" campaign, was that, once she'd made up her mind, she was impervious, indeed downright hostile, to further advice, input, caveats, warnings, etc., etc.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196

    I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.

    I'm very much hoping that things move in the next 24-72 hours. If they don't, then they have a death wish.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,869

    I think you've hit on a good point which is that people have been led to believe that the government can wave a magic wand and solve all their financial problems, if only those nasty people in government willed it to be so.

    (Anecdote alert) I have heard someone say in the past week - well, if mortgage rates get too high the government will have to step in and make up the difference.

    This is the byproduct of the decisions of the past few years. Instead of offering targeted support the government has been all too quick to rush out blanket 'solutions' that amount to writing blank cheques. The media need to take a more balanced and critical view of this IMHO, rather than constantly screaming for 'support'.

    There was a coffee shop owner on the radio earlier who not only wanted help with energy bills but thought the goverment should eliminate business rates to help her out. She was pretty close to arguing that if her business — a coffee shop mind — might lose money the government should step in. I'm not sure she grasped the whole idea of free enterprise.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196
    Just watched the full interview. Blimey, the blinking. It's impossible to watch without noticing it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,438
    PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror


    “The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/17/fear-kyiv-deadly-kamikaze-drones-rain-down-ukraine

    The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    Andy_JS said:

    538's forecast for the Senate is now 50.4 seats for the Democrats, and Nevada is projected to be a dead heat.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/

    So no change
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,778

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ihunt said:

    i think this is what Farage means when he talks about a globalist coup

    Lots of chatter around in Tory circles speculating about the degree to which Sunakites with City links may have deliberately stoked the market run against Truss/Kwarteng.

    https://twitter.com/oflynnsocial/status/1582095411107414016?s=20&t=pAaHO2IC7bBRXlBMb8-fcQ

    Oh please,

    Sunak was a relatively junior guy at TCI, which deals solely in equities. The idea that he could affect the bond market for political purposes is utterly ridiculous.

    Why would the spivs prefer Sunak to Kwarteng? If anything you'd expect them to prefer Kwarteng's tax cutting for personal reasons. Ultimately they're capitalists who want to make money. Not lending at favourable rates of interest to a government that has no plan to bring down the debt burden and presumably would inflate/devalue it away.
    You make a good point: Kwarteng (Odey Asset Management) is at least as plugged into that world as Sunak.
    I think if there was a conspiracy afoot, Kwasi would have been at the heart of it. He's behaved like a remote operated IED device at the heart of the Truss project. Weird things like his meeting with Hedge Fund Managers too. What puzzles about the theory is whether there's sufficient reward in it for him to have also thrown his own reputation on the fire.
    There is no conspiracy.

    Truss and Kwarteng genuinely believed that deficits no longer mattered, and that cutting taxes and increasing spending (how very 1970s), would be welcomed by the markets.

    Investors - and bear in mind that most investors are not British and have a wide range of government bonds they can purchase - got scared. And they were particularly spooked by the fact that there was no analysis showing that it led to debt-to-GDP coming down sooner rather than later.

    The bond markets moved, not because of some Machiavellian plan, but because investors didn't like the risk-reward at the old prices.

    Countries that run deficits (and the UK runs a double deficit) are dependent on strangers to pay for their excesses. There is no obligation for a Swedish pension fund manager to buy British government bonds.

    What the UK needs to do is to have a grown up discussion about what it can - longer term - afford to pay for. That didn't happen under Kwarteng. I hope it will under Hunt. Because only by living within ones means can one be in control of one's own destiny.
    I'm not sure I agree that they thought that deficits didn't matter. I suspect it was a belief that the tax cuts would in effect pay for themselves through higher growth. Obviously the OBR didn't agree with their 'optimistic' growth forecast so they had no way of making the figures add up. The markets put two and two together and came up with higher borrowing. Gordon Brown had a similar issue. He was reluctant to consider medium term spending cuts after 2008 because he thought the Treasury was being too negative in its growth projections and the cuts wouldn't be needed. I suspect a lot of politicians are prone to thinking that way as it means they can avoid difficult decisions.
    I thought the general idea was that as long as the economy was growing faster than your debt then you were ok.

    Truss/Kwarteng found themselves in a vicious cycle where they couldn't demonstrate that they could boost growth to cover that new debt, interest rates spiked, and the level of growth required to service the debt ended up being even higher than in the first place.

    What's a bit sad is that we had an opportunity to really dig into why growth has been so slow since 2008 and we've blown it.
  • Andy_JS said:

    538's forecast for the Senate is now 50.4 seats for the Democrats, and Nevada is projected to be a dead heat.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/

    So they think somebody's gonna chop Lindsey Graham up into more conveniently-sized sections?

    Works for me! (Metaphorically speaking)

    After all, in South Carolina for many years, the most productive portion of the (male) population, was only worth 0.6 votes per head. Though they were NOT burdened with casting 'em themselves; Lindsay's great-great-great-granddaddy kindly did it for them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    ALASTAIR CAMPBELL
    @campbellclaret
    ·
    1h
    .
    @ChrisMasonBBC
    doing a good job in this interview … the same cannot he said for
    @trussliz
    … she just cannot do this job. Sorry but she can’t. It is awful to watch

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited October 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
    No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.

    Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    Leon said:

    PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror


    “The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/17/fear-kyiv-deadly-kamikaze-drones-rain-down-ukraine

    The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion

    Yes i was reading an article in an indian newspaper saying that was Putins plan also he wants to degrade ukrainian supply lines
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,582
    edited October 2022

    I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.

    I'm very much hoping that things move in the next 24-72 hours. If they don't, then they have a death wish.
    I doubt Starmer can believe his good luck:

    - Truss determined to cling on.
    - The Tory party unable to steel itself to eject her.
    - The catastrophic neoliberal policies have been ditched so...
    - ...the economy may not be totally shafted by the time La Truss leads the Tories to electoral oblivion.
    - Two years of Labour-lite policies are all this zombie government will be able to implement.

    Meanwhile Starmer can sit back and let the Tories keep scoring in their own goal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,978
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.

    And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
  • pingping Posts: 3,282
    This time next year things are going to be awful, economically.

    Surely the tories couldn’t poll in the single digits?
  • glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
    Considering nobody is going to be stupid enough to loan votes to a Corbynite candidate to "widen the debate ever again", they are finished and a complete irrelevance.
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146

    I'm beginning to believe the Tories are so incompetent they can't even work out how to get rid of Truss. Incredible.

    I'm very much hoping that things move in the next 24-72 hours. If they don't, then they have a death wish.
    I doubt Starmer can believe his good luck:

    - Truss determined to cling on.
    - The Tory party unable to steel itself to eject her.
    - The catastrophic neoliberal policies have been ditched so...
    - ...the economy may not be totally shafted by the time La Truss leads the Tories to electoral oblivion.
    - Two years of Labour-lite policies are all this zombie government will be able to implement.

    Meanwhile Starmer can sit back and let the Tories keep scoring in their own goal.
    Without the support of the mail or sun truss will find it difficult
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,279
    ihunt said:

    Leon said:

    PB should know that it’s not true - despite the remarks of @foxy and others - that Putin has given up on targeted attacks and is now just raining terror


    “The mayor said electricity substations appeared to have been the targets but that civilians had been the victims.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/17/fear-kyiv-deadly-kamikaze-drones-rain-down-ukraine

    The drones may sometimes be missing but Putin’s tactical goal is still the same. Degrade Ukraine’s energy supplies, possibly as a precursor to a new invasion

    Yes i was reading an article in an indian newspaper saying that was Putins plan also he wants to degrade ukrainian supply lines
    Degrading the supply lines would certainly be more effective militarily but that appears to be beyond them. That leaves hitting civilian targets which is so easy even the Russian military can do it. The great bear looks more and more like a petty terrorist such as Hamas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.

    And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
    If Truss does go of the 3 above it would almost certainly be Sunak who takes over as PM instead.

    His job would just be to save the furniture, it is unlikely he would actually win the next general election
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,248

    rcs1000 said:

    Has there ever be a bigger bucket of ice cold water of reality pitched over a PM's head than Hunt delivered today? Voodoo Truss economics drowned like kittens in a sack in a single half hour.


    Look at the Telegraph:


    You know that Jim Callaghan nailed it:

    We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.
    Countercyclical fiscal policies are fine if you managed to balance the books during the good times. All the po-faced pricks pouring scorn on Truss's attempts to avert recession are the same ones behind QE and low interest rates and the debasement of the currency. The damage was done over the course of decades, not (poorly presented and mistimed as it was) during one speech.
    Hang on - what was the currency debased against? Euro? Dollar? Or is this screed just nonsense? Because the only huge depreciations of sterling in the last decade were caused by Brexit and Truss.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,112

    glw said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    Nobody is shifting any blame. Tories are responsible for all the stupid things they have done. All I'm saying is that there are still good reasons for not voting Labour. The fact that way too many people still excuse Labour's flirtation with Corbyn is one of them. I see it as being every bit as bad as the GOP and Trump. Quite a few responses tonight have merely confirmed my belief that Labour is still not fit for power again.
    I won't change your mind. But I can assure you that those those who flirted with Corbyn have either a) left the Labour party, or b) lost any semblance of power or influence. Starmer (and the shadow Cabinet) is the boss now, and there's plenty of evidence in both their words and their actions that the Corbynites are finished. They no longer have a power base in any part of the party or in its decision-making processes. Oh, and the comparison with Trump's far-right GOP is, frankly, ludicrous.
    Considering nobody is going to be stupid enough to loan votes to a Corbynite candidate to "widen the debate ever again", they are finished and a complete irrelevance.
    There are still dozens of constituency labour parties where Corbynism holds sway. While Starmer may have purged some of the madder elements from the PLP, if Labour double their number of MPs that will presumably include a lot of Corbynites.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
    No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.

    Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less


    likely to do so for Sunak

    So you are saying that the Hunt would become the hunted?

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
    Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
    No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
    I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting did indeed enable Brexit.
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    They are right to do so. Everything stemmed from Brexit, a project Jezza was all in favour of, promising as it did fantasy rewards.

    This whole shambles is the unravelling of the Brexit-era wish and it will come true make believe politics.
    Even better - blaming Brexit on Corbyn's Labour! Wow.
    Are you saying that for example Tony Blair or index just about any other Labour leader before or since wouldn't have ensured their party was hugely pro-remain?
    No I'm not. I'm merely saying that it's a stretch to blame Corbyn's fence-sitting for Brexit.
    I don't think leave would have won if Corbyn had been more emphatically pro-remain so I don't think it's unreasonable to say his fence-sitting


    did indeed enable Brexit.

    …a Scotsman flaps his wings in the Strangers’ Bar…

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,055
    Ishmael_Z said: "Other than the Waffen SS I cannot think of a more loathsome contemptible and damaging group of individuals in the last 100 years."

    Conservative MPs are more loathsome than, for example, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge?

    And the Uighurs could give you a current example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
    No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.

    Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less


    likely to do so for Sunak

    So you are saying that the Hunt would become the hunted?

    Indeed
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
    No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.

    Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
    You can be in office but not in power.

    I'm not sure why you're so paranoid about Farage but he's also called Sunak a fraud, and Hunt isn't likely to do anything on European policy that would trigger a Farage revival.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,438
    What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”

    “LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/

    Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,778

    Ishmael_Z said: "Other than the Waffen SS I cannot think of a more loathsome contemptible and damaging group of individuals in the last 100 years."

    Conservative MPs are more loathsome than, for example, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge?

    And the Uighurs could give you a current example.

    If you take every post on PB 100% seriously you'll go insane. You should see some of the stuff Leon comes out with.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999

    I note there's been an attempt by a handful of Tories tonight to shift the blame for the shambles we are in from Gordon Brown to Jeremy Corbyn.

    Worth a try, I guess, but reeks a bit of desperation.

    I must have missed the Corbyn Administration..
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,978
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Cheer up HY. If the Conservatives come over as moderates you will be fine. Either Hunt or Sunak will do, although Sunak is coming across as a bit of a princess "I am not playing unless you make me team captain". Hunt is a safe pair of hands, he'll do you proud. Don't rule out Mordaunt. You want to steer clear of the ERG, they are off the scale mad, and they will eat your party.

    And as for Farage. He's an old Putin/Trump cheerleader has-been. He won't trouble your party. Listen to your old Uncle Pete, you know it makes sense.
    If Truss does go of the 3 above it would almost certainly be Sunak who takes over as PM instead.

    His job would just be to save the furniture, it is unlikely he would actually win the next general election
    You sound down and are not thinking straight. I am convinced Sunak is weaker this evening than he was this morning. The Conservatives might not win the next election, although I believe it will be close, and they may crawl over the line. That being so as @MarqueeMark has pointed out the Conservative plan is to scorch the earth so Labour can only fail. That means in January 2030 you get a stonking majority, hopefully with someone sensible as PM. Someone sensible is someone who has spent a lifetime steering clear of the ERG.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850
    ping said:

    This time next year things are going to be awful, economically.

    Surely the tories couldn’t poll in the single digits?

    If Truss tries to rejoin the EU SM they might get there. Which would be ironic since it'd be the single policy that would boost growth the most.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,778
    Leon said:

    What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”

    “LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/

    Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr

    I like to think that was a clever reference to her fear of dogs rather than just being a bit rude.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/putin-merkel-meeting-dog-2017-7?amp
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Andy_JS said:

    538's forecast for the Senate is now 50.4 seats for the Democrats, and Nevada is projected to be a dead heat.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/

    Im going 53/54 republican. Nevada a toss up yes but i think Warnock, Kelly and Fetterman are toast
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,279
    edited October 2022
    Leon said:

    What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”

    “LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/

    Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr

    Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited October 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just watched the Truss interview.

    More humility than Boris ever showed, and more acknowledgement that things have changed than May.

    The party could do worse than uniting behind her.

    That it has worse options available is hardly a strategic advantage.
    I've come to the conclusion Sunaks's as much as a narcissist as Boris ever was. If Truss falls, Hunt is clearly the best choice to take over.
    No, Hunt has zero charisma unlike Sunak. Sunak was also a Leaver unlike Hunt, though at this stage it is just about saving some seats not winning. Sunak as PM, Hunt remains Chancellor
    Hunt has acquired a lot of stature simply through his performance over the last few days. Power creates its own charisma.
    No it doesn't, otherwise Gordon Brown or May would have had charisma. Gravitas maybe, not charisma and you usually need charisma to win general elections.

    Farage would also return to stop Hunt but less likely to do so for Sunak
    You can be in office but not in power.

    I'm not sure why you're so paranoid about Farage but he's also called Sunak a fraud, and Hunt isn't likely to do anything on European policy that would trigger a Farage reviv
    al.
    What Farage has said about Hunt tonight

    '@GBNEWS
    ·
    3h
    'The country is being run by the pro-Chinese Communist Party, Remainer, high-taxer, big-stater Jeremy Hunt.'

    @Nigel_Farage answers people's questions on Barrage the Farage.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    edited October 2022
    Total mystery why "Glasto" has turned into music festival for the well off......

    Glastonbury 2023: Tickets for festival rise to £340
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-63293947
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850

    Total mystery why "Glasto" has turned into music festival for the rich......

    Glastonbury 2023: Tickets for festival rise to £340
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-63293947

    Guess where there won't be a "Just Stop oil" protest from Phoebe and Marcus.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    edited October 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Total mystery why "Glasto" has turned into music festival for the rich......

    Glastonbury 2023: Tickets for festival rise to £340
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-63293947

    Guess where there won't be a "Just Stop oil" protest from Phoebe and Marcus.
    They will be strangely quiet about all the music stars who have flown in on private jets....and that they last saw such and such star play a festival in South America while on their gap yaaaaah.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,438

    Leon said:

    What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”

    “LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/

    Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr

    Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
    I see that. But, arguably, German policy under Merkel has led directly to this war. And the slaughter of hundreds of thousands. And potential nuclear war

    It’s ok for her to say “it made sense at the time” - but even then - at the time - she had people like Trump saying “No don’t do this it’s dangerous, Putin is dangerous”

    And for her to not even express regrets and say sorry NOW is despicable. Fuck her. Almost as bad as Schroeder

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,055
    Eabhal says: "If you take every post on PB 100% seriously you'll go insane. You should see some of the stuff Leon comes out with."

    Oh, I understand that, of course. But if you want to think accurately for betting, or for any other reason, you should avoid such nonsense, unless you follow it with, for example, an emoji to show you are joking.

    And there is a cost to this kind of nonsense. Our enemies -- and we have some extremely nasty ones -- want to see us divided as much as possible. And this kind of nonsense helps, in a small way, to divide us.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,388
    edited October 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    What is it with ex German leaders who can’t say “sorry, I fucked up”

    “LISBON, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Former German chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday she had no regrets about the course her government took with its energy policy and Russia during her time in power, which critics say left Europe's biggest economy too dependent on Russian gas”

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-no-regrets-energy-policy-with-russia-2022-10-13/

    Bitch, you got it terribly wrong. Apologise. Grrr

    Not doing something to reduce their dependence on Russian gas and boost defence spending after 2014 was unforgivable. But cheap Russian gas was popular, nuclear power wasn't and military spending deemed arcane. Merkel was good at working out how to stay in power.
    I see that. But, arguably, German policy under Merkel has led directly to this war. And the slaughter of hundreds of thousands. And potential nuclear war

    It’s ok for her to say “it made sense at the time” - but even then - at the time - she had people like Trump saying “No don’t do this it’s dangerous, Putin is dangerous”

    And for her to not even express regrets and say sorry NOW is despicable. Fuck her. Almost as bad as Schroeder

    German voters are as much to blame as Merkel for becoming dependent on Russian energy. In a democracy people get the politicians they deserve.
This discussion has been closed.