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The Cost of Lizzing Crisis [1] – politicalbetting.com

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    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878

    ydoethur said:

    Chile and Yugoslavia both legally elected Communist governments, in 1970 and 1945 respectively.

    Venezuela could perhaps be added to that list, although whether Chavez was a communist, socialist, or just a narcissist remains open to question.

    Edit - also, Russia *would* have elected a Communist government in 1917, but for the fact Lenin and Trotsky decided the Socialist Revolutionaries were the wrong sort of Communists.

    Arguably Italy would have too post-war, if it hadn't been for vigorous CIA intervention. Mosaddegh in Iraq is another one, overthrown by Western undercover operations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh . Eastern German states have also elected communist-led coalitions, as did Poland (I remember Taki's indignant Spectator op-ed on it - "If the Poles wanted to elect commies they should have said so before and we wouldn't have tried to free them").

    We Eurocommies in the 60s argued that if only we shed the association with dictatatorships in the Soviet bloc, we had a decent chance of winning the argument. Not sure we weren't being over-optimistic, but it was worth a try.
    It works fine, provided you overlook almost all aspects of human nature.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,327

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    You do realise of course that your personal experience of the world may differ from the rest of us,,,,,..
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,524

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:


    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    ·
    25m
    First ukrainian official Ive seen putting a specific figure on the number of Russian troops trapped in Lyman. 5000.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien

    With the front now 20 km further east from Lyman and supplies cut off, then the situation for the Russians is desperate. Fighting now in Kreminna shows a total collapse of the line, as was suggested last night. Peskov also announced the suspension of the mobilization "because the recruiting offices are over loaded" (translation from the weasel- the mobilization has been the greatest Russian military disaster in decades).

    The funereal faces in the Kremlin last night showed that the regime knows the game is up. The denouncing of the UN Charter (who signed up for these rules? asked Putin: all members of the UN, actually Vlad), was sinister, but in a pathetic, Dr. Evil, kind of way. The celebrations in Red Square were empty, and now many Russians are beginning to understand that the country is facing complete humiliation and utter disaster,

    Though I would not want to test it, there is pretty good chance that even with better funding over the past decades, the Russian missile systems are in just as bad a state as the rest of the rabble of an army. Any nuclear use could lead to the rapid destruction of Russia´s entire armed forces, including its nuclear forces. The generals know this and while they are happy enough to rattle the nuclear sabre, there must be real concern that if they play that card, then rapid and total vengeance would follow. The western policy of maintaining conventional support for Ukraine makes complete sense. Russia has been warned to expect a "catastrophic" response to any first use of WMD.

    So while our middle-agers here are enjoying the disaster porn of Threads and the like, the feeling here, close to the border, is that Russia is finished as a great power and that this war is the last nail in the coffin of a genuinely evil, criminal cabal. In their death throes they are very dangerous, but there is no real prospect of their long term survival. Could be weeks, or even months, but the direction of travel is close to irreversible. Then Russia will have to negotiate the scale of their moral depravity, in the same way as Germany did, after 1945.
    IMO the big question facing Putin is the following: if he automagically 'wins' all of Ukraine today, how does he stop all the economic sanctions that are massively limiting his country's strength? The west won't just say: "Oh well, he's won, we'd better just lift everything!" as they well know Putin will do the same with your fair country and others.

    Russia has spent decades getting vast amount of treasure from oil and gas. They will now be seen around the world as a massively unreliable supplier, untrustworthy. They will sell oil and gas, but at nowhere near the quantities they did before, or on the favourable conditions. Europe will find alternative supplies and move towards other, hopefully greener, forms of supply.

    There is now no way that Russia ends this war stronger than it was before February this year. It will be a diminished country, in terms of its military, its world standing, and most importantly, the lives of its own citizens. A pariah.

    The only way out of this is to withdraw from Ukraine - at the very least to its pre-February borders - and admit defeat. Then, slowly over time, sanctions can be withdrawn. But I doubt Germany et al will be taking long-term energy contracts out with them, and western companies will be very hesitant to invest in the country.

    Continuing the escalation will only weaken Russia, as well as imperilling the world. And that's what worries me: as I've been saying for years, Putin is not interested in making Russia stronger. He is only interested in bringing us down to his level.
    In short: Yes to most of that. It will take a very long time for Russia´s neighbours not to fear and hate them, but with the scale of the economic and demographic collapse no beginning, the outlook is truly grim, even if they withdrew today. Even if sanctions were lifted, the de facto boycott will continue. Who wants anything to do with a bunch of murderers, torturers and rapists, who laugh when the threaten nuclear megadeath to the whole world?

    Russia will have to face the same moral regeneration as Germany after 1945, and that is a process that takes generations.
    I don't think Putin and his clique are in the same league of evil as Hitler and his clique.

    They're still pretty evil.

    It was very hard for Germany, simply because of how vile the Nazis were. But, it was also easier, because they were such an outlier. Germany, pre-Nazi, was a prosperous, law-abiding, civilised country, with strong civic institutions. Russia doesn't really have any of that. Russia has always been a kleptocracy, since the time of the Mongol invasions. Without the Mongols, Russia today would probably be Scandinavian.
    Part of the problem is that there has been no moral recovery from Stalin, who really was just as evil as Hitler.

    Instead of atoning for the crimes of Stalinism and Communism, Putin has mostly repeated those crimes. This is why I use the word "moral" crisis. There has been no truth and reconciliation, but instead a glorification of the KGB and other criminals. Unless this is ended, Russia can never recover. I have many Russophone friends who now refuse to engage with any Russian culture because whatever the glories of Bulgakov, Tshaikovsky etc, everything is overlaid with the continuing brutality of thugs like Stalin, Beria and indeed Putin. As one said, who cares about the ballet when they are rebuilding the GULAG? The collapse of Russian soft power is just as remarkable as any other part of this Russian disaster.
    The Soviet Union came out of WWII with a huge amount of international goodwill, which completely obscured the crimes of the 1930's. The onset of the Cold War diminished, but certainly did not destroy, that goodwill, particularly as the Soviets could claim to be anti-colonialists, and the West really did throw its weight behind some ghastly leaders in the Third World.

    Obviously, where you are based, and in Eastern Europe generally, people have never had warm feelings towards the Soviet Union, given the dreadful treatment they received at its hands. It's remarkable really, how little venegeance was taken against Soviet collaborators.
    The first paragraph is quite right; and it wasn't only goodwill earned by the Soviet union, but a recognition that governments in the 30s had made some horrendous mistakes.
    At least that's what many of the then older generation said.

    I'm not quite sure that the second paragraph is as correct as the first; there appears to be, or to have been, some amount of support among the older generation for the Communist regimes because they compared well, in many respects, with what had gone before.
    There was little residual support for communism in the immediate aftermath of the changes, but nostalgia grew with the disruptive changes that followed.

    I remember reading an account of the changes in Eastern Europe in the 90s and an observation that struck me was that, at some point during the transition to capitalist economies, it dawned on people that they were being ‘sorted’ into classes, not just them but likely their children and children’s children, moving from a state where, barring the tiny nomenclature, everyone had similar living standards to a western state with a ‘middle class’ who would perpetually have generally better access to everything than the ‘working class’.

    Not surprising that some on the losing side of the deal started to hanker for the lost ‘equality’ and ‘all in it together’ communitarianism, made easier with a bit of distance in the same way that many of us look back on objectively unpleasant experiences almost as if we had enjoyed them at the time.

    Well for every country, even including Russia, it did not take long for actual living standards to overtake the so-called equality of the Communist system.
    It took until about 2006 for average real wages in Russia to reach their 1990 level - and with a smaller population too.

    The idea that the east bloc was egalitarian is one only held by their friends in the West. And those at the top in those societies. For everyone else it was either accepting your allotted position or trying to crawl up the greasy pole of the Party. And that was increasingly hereditary - as party members made sure their children got another rung up the system….
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    I prefer this to STV to be honest, which is a mathematical nightmare.
    In the computer age, it isn’t that big a deal. PB psephologists would love it. And if the Irish can cope with it….

    Conceptually, it isn’t complicated. You work out how many votes you need to get elected, and those who fall well short get eliminated and have their votes transferred to the second or later choices; those who get too many have the surplus similarly transferred.

    People who can understand their payslip or an accumulator bet or the intricacies of numerous sports will be able to take STV in their stride…
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,876

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    CD13 said:

    I still remember going to bed in late October 1962, thinking that I might not quite reach my teens, my thirteenth birthday not being until January.

    As always, we muddled through and since then, I've treated doom-sayers with a little contempt. If it's being foreseen, it probably won't happen. It's the unforseen you need to worry about.

    Global warning? A piece of piss. Nuckear war? It won't happen. A large asteroid? We can probably knock it off-course.

    A complete f*ck-up? Always possible, but no point worrying about. As for a financial misadventure? Put it into context. What is this life if full of care ...

    To be fair I also thought I wouldn’t reach my teens because I was convinced a T-Rex was going to eat me after watching Jurassic Park
    Why would a t-rex watch Jurassic Park?
    A T. rex would be horrified at Jurassic Park showing its peers without their usual feathery covering.
    It’s fascinating how quickly Jurassic Park became out of date. Not all dinosaurs were feathered, but a significant number were. I used to have dinosaur books which pictured T-Rex standing upright, rather than the more modern horizontal positioning.
    On that score Jurassic Park was out of date before it was even made - in spite of leaning heavily on the new theories that were circulating at the time about warm blooded dinosaurs. They made great use of the ideas of Bob Bakker who was one of the original proponents of the warm blooded dinosaur hypothesis and which included feathered dinosaurs. They seem to have made a conscious decision not to push things too far away from the traditional view of dinosaurs and so limited the use of feathers and fur.

    They pay a direct homage to Bakker in the second film by having one of the experts who returns to the island based on him including his distinictive looks.
    Just checked my memory and the film did indeed come out in 1993 by when feathers in at least some theropods (and obviously Archaeopteryx) were very much accepted. So a timelag of maybe a decade or so after Bakker's book (1975?) and the ensuing debates. Though it was also about that time (early 1990s) that the first Liaoning fossils were being discovered to reinforce the point re feathers in dinos, and in due course to extend it considerably. Very nice online talk here by Prof Mike Benton btw.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9NMQf_RfZw
    Bakker is one of my scientific heroes. Challenged conventional orthodoxy in such a way that it was very difficult to argue against him. Proper science.
    Yes, I well remember reading his original article in Scientific American in, I think, 1974. And his book when I was a student.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,104


    You are still giving the party more power in the system than they deserve when in fact we should be moving the other way and reducing the power of the parties.

    If you want to reform the system then start by banning party affiliation on polling slips. Make people do some work and find out who their MP is rather than just voting for the green tree or the yellow bird. Combine that with an STV system but maintaining the current constituencies.

    And massively reduce whipping. Make every vote in Parliament other than votes of confidence a free vote. If a party wants its MPs to vote a particular way they should win their support by force of argument not by bribes and threats.

    "Make people do some work" - that's not a pre-requisite in any democratic system. That assumes for example a basic level of literacy which is an assumption you cannot make. In many countries ballot papers have symbols or pictures to assist those who cannot read or even write.

    On the whipping issue, I don't wholly disagree. The Party and its candidates stand on a manifesto - any legislation based on that manifesto shouldn't require whipping to ensure the support of MPs. In PR systems where coalition Government is the norm, any proposed legislation goes through an initial phase of consultation to see if a majority exists before it is formally introduced.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,301
    edited October 2022

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    edited October 2022

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    Good on Bart for enjoying something with his family, but I've never heard of halloween lasting a month. Annoying enough it lasting a night.

    I always think Christians miss a trick by not making more of All Saints day (merged with all souls day) as a celebration of the Christian communion. They could make cakes (traditional in some countries) and celebrate figures like MLK, Mother Theresa, Dietrich Bonhoefer, William Wilberforce etc. There's something quite powerful about tagging on to an existing festival, just as Halloween itself became more widely celebrated than All Saints day. I suppose it hasn't happened because Christians can never agree on anything.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115
    edited October 2022
    .deleted - old picture
  • Options
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    You do realise of course that your personal experience of the world may differ from the rest of us,,,,,..
    Indeed but Bart isn't trying to push his experiences on you in the way Black History Month is pushed on the rest of us. He simply made an observation about what October means to him. To me it means something different again but I also don't seek to make others conform to my view.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    Nigelb said:

    .deleted - old picture

    Those people do not consider Biden and the Democrats to be aligned with America's interests.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878
    edited October 2022

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
  • Options

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    Excuse to chow down on some processed sugar seems to fit the facts.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,876
    edited October 2022

    PeterM said:



    To be fair there are respected doctors like Dr Aseem Malhotra now coming out saying the vax is harmful

    https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1574986541302104065?s=20&t=HBbW0LFrvxGdVCWUzy4Tgw

    The Pfizer mRNA to be precise.

    Apropos of nothing, I ‘enjoyed’ my second covid booster on Thursday. I had a pretty intense reaction (flu like fever etc) to my fist booster (Pfizer, after 2x AZ). Had the new moderna mRNA this time and again nasty fever for 36 hours. Not fun.
    But harmful? Not a lot of evidence for that.

    I’ll get mine too when offered. The NHS sent me a text saying “you’re due your Autumn booster” but the online form said I’m not….emailed the GP to see if they know.
    Same here. I will probably end up having to call the surgery even though they say 'please don't call us'.
    Good for you...no need to tell everyone though...my dad doesnt broadcast to the world every time he has his flu jab
    It’s a PB tradition for posters to tell everyone when they’ve had a COVID jab. It goes down well, largely because it annoys the anti-vaxxers.
    Had mine last week too, and flu as well, not on the spur but as part of the organised programme, at least in Scotland. Rather pleased too as we were able to change place and time to one in walking distance a month earlier than the initial offering!

    Still felt shitey the next day, but not badly: and we didnt' have to do anything much.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    To me its weird to do in September, but then I think its weird to put up Christmas trees in November too.

    1 October/1 December is when decorations can go up.

    Americans certainly aren't so restrained, that's true.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878
    edited October 2022
    stodge said:


    You are still giving the party more power in the system than they deserve when in fact we should be moving the other way and reducing the power of the parties.

    If you want to reform the system then start by banning party affiliation on polling slips. Make people do some work and find out who their MP is rather than just voting for the green tree or the yellow bird. Combine that with an STV system but maintaining the current constituencies.

    And massively reduce whipping. Make every vote in Parliament other than votes of confidence a free vote. If a party wants its MPs to vote a particular way they should win their support by force of argument not by bribes and threats.

    "Make people do some work" - that's not a pre-requisite in any democratic system. That assumes for example a basic level of literacy which is an assumption you cannot make. In many countries ballot papers have symbols or pictures to assist those who cannot read or even write.

    On the whipping issue, I don't wholly disagree. The Party and its candidates stand on a manifesto - any legislation based on that manifesto shouldn't require whipping to ensure the support of MPs. In PR systems where coalition Government is the norm, any proposed legislation goes through an initial phase of consultation to see if a majority exists before it is formally introduced.
    Whipping (and communism, come to that), is akin to organised religion, where a small number of powerful people get to sit down and decide what everyone else will have to believe.

    It only works where there are powerful sanctions (formal, or cultural) to prevent people drifting off and deciding our beliefs for ourselves - which is how most of us prefer to live.

    Only a few weeks back I was in coastal Virginia being shown the whipping posts used by the early colonies to punish any of their number who failed to attend the compulsory church services they had - several times every single day. These were people who had left Europe for freedom of religion…whipping for real.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878

    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    Excuse to chow down on some processed sugar seems to fit the facts.
    I’m not detecting much need here for such excuses
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    edited October 2022

    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    To me its weird to do in September, but then I think its weird to put up Christmas trees in November too.

    1 October/1 December is when decorations can go up.

    Americans certainly aren't so restrained, that's true.
    Advent starts on the 27th of Nov. so I think it's admissable then.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115

    Nigelb said:

    .deleted - old picture

    Those people do not consider Biden and the Democrats to be aligned with America's interests.
    Those people aren’t aligned with America’s interests.

  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:


    You are still giving the party more power in the system than they deserve when in fact we should be moving the other way and reducing the power of the parties.

    If you want to reform the system then start by banning party affiliation on polling slips. Make people do some work and find out who their MP is rather than just voting for the green tree or the yellow bird. Combine that with an STV system but maintaining the current constituencies.

    And massively reduce whipping. Make every vote in Parliament other than votes of confidence a free vote. If a party wants its MPs to vote a particular way they should win their support by force of argument not by bribes and threats.

    "Make people do some work" - that's not a pre-requisite in any democratic system. That assumes for example a basic level of literacy which is an assumption you cannot make. In many countries ballot papers have symbols or pictures to assist those who cannot read or even write.

    On the whipping issue, I don't wholly disagree. The Party and its candidates stand on a manifesto - any legislation based on that manifesto shouldn't require whipping to ensure the support of MPs. In PR systems where coalition Government is the norm, any proposed legislation goes through an initial phase of consultation to see if a majority exists before it is formally introduced.
    Whipping (and communism, come to that), is akin to organised religion, where a small number of powerful people get to sit down and decide what everyone else will have to believe.

    It only works where there are powerful sanctions (formal, or cultural) to prevent people drifting off and deciding our beliefs for ourselves - which is how most of us prefer to live.

    Only a few weeks back I was in coastal Virginia being shown the whipping posts used by the early colonies to punish any of their number who failed to attend the compulsory church services they had - several times every single day. These were people who had left Europe for freedom of religion…whipping for real.
    We still have that kind of thing in Winchcombe.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    Tres said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Prepare yourselves, twitter.
    This has gone out to Tory MPs: https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1576173996491640835/photo/1


    the stable is empty and the horse is long gone Mark.
    Doesn't even make any sense. People don't understand these things even when explained, they judge based on whether they work, what the reaction was, and if the people explaining it appear to know what they are doing.

    Whether it will work wouldn't be apparent for some time even if it had gone to plan (but that the reaction was not what they expected argues it wouldn't, since they didn't even predict that), they can see the reaction was disgustingly bad, and not merely from the opposition, and Truss and Kwarteng appear to have not a clue what they are talking about.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,876
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:


    You are still giving the party more power in the system than they deserve when in fact we should be moving the other way and reducing the power of the parties.

    If you want to reform the system then start by banning party affiliation on polling slips. Make people do some work and find out who their MP is rather than just voting for the green tree or the yellow bird. Combine that with an STV system but maintaining the current constituencies.

    And massively reduce whipping. Make every vote in Parliament other than votes of confidence a free vote. If a party wants its MPs to vote a particular way they should win their support by force of argument not by bribes and threats.

    "Make people do some work" - that's not a pre-requisite in any democratic system. That assumes for example a basic level of literacy which is an assumption you cannot make. In many countries ballot papers have symbols or pictures to assist those who cannot read or even write.

    On the whipping issue, I don't wholly disagree. The Party and its candidates stand on a manifesto - any legislation based on that manifesto shouldn't require whipping to ensure the support of MPs. In PR systems where coalition Government is the norm, any proposed legislation goes through an initial phase of consultation to see if a majority exists before it is formally introduced.
    Whipping (and communism, come to that), is akin to organised religion, where a small number of powerful people get to sit down and decide what everyone else will have to believe.

    It only works where there are powerful sanctions (formal, or cultural) to prevent people drifting off and deciding our beliefs for ourselves - which is how most of us prefer to live.

    Only a few weeks back I was in coastal Virginia being shown the whipping posts used by the early colonies to punish any of their number who failed to attend the compulsory church services they had - several times every single day. These were people who had left Europe for freedom of religion…whipping for real.
    Thought you were talking about the Tory Party till the last para ...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878

    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    To me its weird to do in September, but then I think its weird to put up Christmas trees in November too.

    1 October/1 December is when decorations can go up.

    Americans certainly aren't so restrained, that's true.
    Advent starts on the 27th of Nov. so I think it's admissable then.
    I always go with mid December. That’s still three weeks altogether. Putting up your decorations weeks in advance is like wearing a poppy in October.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
    Parties are a feature of pretty well every democracy, and seem to be necessary to their organised functioning at the national level.
    I’m no fan of them, and instinctively shy away from attaching myself to one, but they are not a ‘perversion’, even if some of their manifestations can be.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .deleted - old picture

    Those people do not consider Biden and the Democrats to be aligned with America's interests.
    Those people aren’t aligned with America’s interests.

    That's an opinion that cannot possibly be validated, as you know. You would have to define what America's interests were, whether the interests of the State and its people were the same thing, then whether the current geostrategic posture/domestic policy of the State was aligned with those interests. It's all subjective.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115
    edited October 2022
    Gazprom cuts off supplies to Italy.
    https://twitter.com/markets/status/1576178687288000515
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    pm215 said:

    maxh said:

    So whilst I agree that our democratic system allows eg a change in leader and some policies between elections (and this is in fact essential), the extent of the change, and the fact that it directly contradicts what (some) people thought they were voting for, pushes this argument beyond breaking point. I don’t think we’re dealing in absolutes here.

    Mmm. Our system gives quite a lot of power to an elected government during its term, which means there's a lot of leeway for it to take quite sharp turns in overall policy direction. (Compare the US, where there are more checks-and-balances and more frequent opportunities for the electorate to express disapproval. That brings its own set of dysfunctions, though...) I guess overall I'd say this sharp libertarian turn is deeply unwise in part because it's not something the electorate ever signed up to, but it's not "undemocratic". Hopefully the utterly dismal polling will make Tory MPs push back on the leadership. Otherwise, vote for parties who will pick up the pieces in 2024...
    That's where I come down on it. We're essentially picking them to exercise their judgement, based on the outlines they give us, but if the situation changes we're expecting them to change as needed without checking back with us every time.

    This is just an extreme case.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,023
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    To me its weird to do in September, but then I think its weird to put up Christmas trees in November too.

    1 October/1 December is when decorations can go up.

    Americans certainly aren't so restrained, that's true.
    Advent starts on the 27th of Nov. so I think it's admissable then.
    I always go with mid December. That’s still three weeks altogether. Putting up your decorations weeks in advance is like wearing a poppy in October.
    I'm early Dec.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302

    kle4 said:

    He's right.

    Question. Will we see a video of Liz Truss explaining the abolition of the cap on bankers bonuses, and the 45p tax cut. No. Of course not. She is trying to avoid even talking about it. So if you can't talk about it you can't defend it. And if you can't defend it, don't do it.


    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1576140282743377921?cxt=HHwWgsDS0ZDPyd8rAAAA

    Hold on, but if she was talking about it, then people would say "if you're explaining, you're losing".

    Seems a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    People might, but I wouldn't.

    In real life you have to explain your decisions and reasoning, and she doesn't seem to have even done that with her MPs, she has just dictated, and is whinging that people just don't get it based on there mere platitiudes she and Kwarteng permitted to be used as explanation.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302
    Nigelb said:

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
    Parties are a feature of pretty well every democracy, and seem to be necessary to their organised functioning at the national level.
    I’m no fan of them, and instinctively shy away from attaching myself to one, but they are not a ‘perversion’, even if some of their manifestations can be.
    It's pretty obvious we need at least some way of loosely grouping interests together to establish some broad vision for a programme. It's just that we need the party machines to be much less powerful, and competitive electoral systems to prevent easy domination.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,518

    Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:


    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    ·
    25m
    First ukrainian official Ive seen putting a specific figure on the number of Russian troops trapped in Lyman. 5000.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien

    With the front now 20 km further east from Lyman and supplies cut off, then the situation for the Russians is desperate. Fighting now in Kreminna shows a total collapse of the line, as was suggested last night. Peskov also announced the suspension of the mobilization "because the recruiting offices are over loaded" (translation from the weasel- the mobilization has been the greatest Russian military disaster in decades).

    The funereal faces in the Kremlin last night showed that the regime knows the game is up. The denouncing of the UN Charter (who signed up for these rules? asked Putin: all members of the UN, actually Vlad), was sinister, but in a pathetic, Dr. Evil, kind of way. The celebrations in Red Square were empty, and now many Russians are beginning to understand that the country is facing complete humiliation and utter disaster,

    Though I would not want to test it, there is pretty good chance that even with better funding over the past decades, the Russian missile systems are in just as bad a state as the rest of the rabble of an army. Any nuclear use could lead to the rapid destruction of Russia´s entire armed forces, including its nuclear forces. The generals know this and while they are happy enough to rattle the nuclear sabre, there must be real concern that if they play that card, then rapid and total vengeance would follow. The western policy of maintaining conventional support for Ukraine makes complete sense. Russia has been warned to expect a "catastrophic" response to any first use of WMD.

    So while our middle-agers here are enjoying the disaster porn of Threads and the like, the feeling here, close to the border, is that Russia is finished as a great power and that this war is the last nail in the coffin of a genuinely evil, criminal cabal. In their death throes they are very dangerous, but there is no real prospect of their long term survival. Could be weeks, or even months, but the direction of travel is close to irreversible. Then Russia will have to negotiate the scale of their moral depravity, in the same way as Germany did, after 1945.
    IMO the big question facing Putin is the following: if he automagically 'wins' all of Ukraine today, how does he stop all the economic sanctions that are massively limiting his country's strength? The west won't just say: "Oh well, he's won, we'd better just lift everything!" as they well know Putin will do the same with your fair country and others.

    Russia has spent decades getting vast amount of treasure from oil and gas. They will now be seen around the world as a massively unreliable supplier, untrustworthy. They will sell oil and gas, but at nowhere near the quantities they did before, or on the favourable conditions. Europe will find alternative supplies and move towards other, hopefully greener, forms of supply.

    There is now no way that Russia ends this war stronger than it was before February this year. It will be a diminished country, in terms of its military, its world standing, and most importantly, the lives of its own citizens. A pariah.

    The only way out of this is to withdraw from Ukraine - at the very least to its pre-February borders - and admit defeat. Then, slowly over time, sanctions can be withdrawn. But I doubt Germany et al will be taking long-term energy contracts out with them, and western companies will be very hesitant to invest in the country.

    Continuing the escalation will only weaken Russia, as well as imperilling the world. And that's what worries me: as I've been saying for years, Putin is not interested in making Russia stronger. He is only interested in bringing us down to his level.
    In short: Yes to most of that. It will take a very long time for Russia´s neighbours not to fear and hate them, but with the scale of the economic and demographic collapse no beginning, the outlook is truly grim, even if they withdrew today. Even if sanctions were lifted, the de facto boycott will continue. Who wants anything to do with a bunch of murderers, torturers and rapists, who laugh when the threaten nuclear megadeath to the whole world?

    Russia will have to face the same moral regeneration as Germany after 1945, and that is a process that takes generations.
    I don't think Putin and his clique are in the same league of evil as Hitler and his clique.

    They're still pretty evil.

    It was very hard for Germany, simply because of how vile the Nazis were. But, it was also easier, because they were such an outlier. Germany, pre-Nazi, was a prosperous, law-abiding, civilised country, with strong civic institutions. Russia doesn't really have any of that. Russia has always been a kleptocracy, since the time of the Mongol invasions. Without the Mongols, Russia today would probably be Scandinavian.
    Part of the problem is that there has been no moral recovery from Stalin, who really was just as evil as Hitler.

    Instead of atoning for the crimes of Stalinism and Communism, Putin has mostly repeated those crimes. This is why I use the word "moral" crisis. There has been no truth and reconciliation, but instead a glorification of the KGB and other criminals. Unless this is ended, Russia can never recover. I have many Russophone friends who now refuse to engage with any Russian culture because whatever the glories of Bulgakov, Tshaikovsky etc, everything is overlaid with the continuing brutality of thugs like Stalin, Beria and indeed Putin. As one said, who cares about the ballet when they are rebuilding the GULAG? The collapse of Russian soft power is just as remarkable as any other part of this Russian disaster.
    The Soviet Union came out of WWII with a huge amount of international goodwill, which completely obscured the crimes of the 1930's. The onset of the Cold War diminished, but certainly did not destroy, that goodwill, particularly as the Soviets could claim to be anti-colonialists, and the West really did throw its weight behind some ghastly leaders in the Third World.

    Obviously, where you are based, and in Eastern Europe generally, people have never had warm feelings towards the Soviet Union, given the dreadful treatment they received at its hands. It's remarkable really, how little venegeance was taken against Soviet collaborators.
    The first paragraph is quite right; and it wasn't only goodwill earned by the Soviet union, but a recognition that governments in the 30s had made some horrendous mistakes.
    At least that's what many of the then older generation said.

    I'm not quite sure that the second paragraph is as correct as the first; there appears to be, or to have been, some amount of support among the older generation for the Communist regimes because they compared well, in many respects, with what had gone before.
    There was little residual support for communism in the immediate aftermath of the changes, but nostalgia grew with the disruptive changes that followed.

    I remember reading an account of the changes in Eastern Europe in the 90s and an observation that struck me was that, at some point during the transition to capitalist economies, it dawned on people that they were being ‘sorted’ into classes, not just them but likely their children and children’s children, moving from a state where, barring the tiny nomenclature, everyone had similar living standards to a western state with a ‘middle class’ who would perpetually have generally better access to everything than the ‘working class’.

    Not surprising that some on the losing side of the deal started to hanker for the lost ‘equality’ and ‘all in it together’ communitarianism, made easier with a bit of distance in the same way that many of us look back on objectively unpleasant experiences almost as if we had enjoyed them at the time.

    Well for every country, even including Russia, it did not take long for actual living standards to overtake the so-called equality of the Communist system.
    It took until about 2006 for average real wages in Russia to reach their 1990 level - and with a smaller population too.

    Except the 1) 1990 level was Soviet statistics and not accurate 2) in 1990 you could not buy very much anyway, because the choice of goods was minimal. Communism rationed goods by availability, not by price. So there is quite a bit of research that suggests that within 2-3 years actual living standards had improved sharply. That was my experience of that time too. it took quite a while for accurate statistics gathering to be set up, and much of the real economy raced ahead of the data gathering.

    Now Estonia has an average living standard that is pretty close to the UK, and a recorded GDP/cap in December ´21 at $38,207 that is very close indeed to the $45,839 of the UK. That could be lagging behind too.
  • Options


    Advent starts on the 27th of Nov. so I think it's admissable then.

    It does this year. That's the earliest it can start (because Christmas Day this year is on a Sunday). The latest it can start is 3rd December (in years when Christmas Day is a Monday).
  • Options

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    It was a simple pisstake of you getting the hump about black history being in focus for a whole month. That month being October, so enough of the misdirection about Christmas, please.

    And yes, I love Halloween and Christmas. Our kids used to compete to build grottos on Christmas morning and I very much enjoyed the childish nonsense that it was.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,015

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Americans seem to love Halloween for some reason, not just the kids. Ten days back - so in deepest mid-September, a regular hotel I was at with entirely adult guests had decorated the hotel lift (elevator) with rubber spiders and rats and the like, as if this were normal behaviour. Which, here, it is.
    To me its weird to do in September, but then I think its weird to put up Christmas trees in November too.

    1 October/1 December is when decorations can go up.

    Americans certainly aren't so restrained, that's true.
    Advent starts on the 27th of Nov. so I think it's admissable then.
    I always go with mid December. That’s still three weeks altogether. Putting up your decorations weeks in advance is like wearing a poppy in October.
    I'm early Dec.
    Same here. Always glad to get the Xmas stuff out of the loft.

    I wouldn’t bother but my wife loves all that Kitsch stuff.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .deleted - old picture

    Those people do not consider Biden and the Democrats to be aligned with America's interests.
    Those people aren’t aligned with America’s interests.

    That's an opinion that cannot possibly be validated, as you know. You would have to define what America's interests were, whether the interests of the State and its people were the same thing, then whether the current geostrategic posture/domestic policy of the State was aligned with those interests. It's all subjective.
    It is a democracy.
    Supporting a fascist dictator in abolishing through military force an independent democratic nation of 44m people is not in its interests. Attacking aid to Ukraine which has passed both Houses of Congress by very large, bipartisan majorities is certainly acting against national interests.

    There nothing subjective about that - they are opposing their own government and constitution.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.
  • Options

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    yes ,as a family we made a big thing of halloween as both myself and my daughter are on the gothic side - Autumn is our favourite season by far and thinking of the "dark" side of life in a fun and community way is good imo once in a while - It is more a spiritual thing for us and whilst we are not (or was - daughter is now a balanced adult!) the Adams Family we do feel it more of a deeper and soulful exercise than say Christmas which is pure materialism and too sentimental in a shallow way for my taste. I do like you make it last from the 1st October and do serious stuff mixed in with fun - It will cumulate in a fun halloween murder mystery this year at chez state go away where guests take on a role - Dracula ,Bride of Dracula,Frankinstein, Curella De Ville ,Morticia ,Gomez ,Wicked Witch , Poison Ivy etc and I serve a suitable meal and we wok out who "did it"
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,339
    A lot of the time, you get a read on how a party is feeling by what they *don't* do.

    MPs have been instructed by Downing St to share and champion graphics on the mini-budget, focussing on the energy price policy.

    How many have done that? Trouble.


    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1576200935579189249
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,339
    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,524
    Nigelb said:

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
    Parties are a feature of pretty well every democracy, and seem to be necessary to their organised functioning at the national level.
    I’m no fan of them, and instinctively shy away from attaching myself to one, but they are not a ‘perversion’, even if some of their manifestations can be.
    What about introducing the secret ballot? In Parliament…
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280

    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    He has actually said that he will not approve it until they have enacted all the conditions he agreed to.

    Which, since they are in the process of enacting most of them, including lifting their arms embargo as of last night, seems to be mostly posturing for his domestic audience.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,124
    F1: entertaining qualifying session.

    Relatively pleased with the 23 on Perez each way to win (mentioned some while ago).
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,878
    Watching this continual series of CNN reporters standing in the sunshine talking about damage that took place days ago, while outside it is merely raining, is becoming tiresome. Let’s take the dog for a walk and see if I can find somewhere for a second breakfast…
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328

    Minimum requirement for cabinet level posts should be 3 years experience as either junior minister or select committee in relevant departments only. Stop plonking MPs who have no knowledge of an area into the most important roles in the country.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,986

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    It was a simple pisstake of you getting the hump about black history being in focus for a whole month. That month being October, so enough of the misdirection about Christmas, please.

    And yes, I love Halloween and Christmas. Our kids used to compete to build grottos on Christmas morning and I very much enjoyed the childish nonsense that it was.
    There some people on PB that would argue that up and down are the same thing, wet is the same as dry, and there is no difference between loud and quiet.

    You might want to keep that in mind because using reason and facts will not save you :wink:
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328

    Minimum requirement for cabinet level posts should be 3 years experience as either junior minister or select committee in relevant departments only. Stop plonking MPs who have no knowledge of an area into the most important roles in the country.
    Whilst that may help, I think relevant experience in the outside world would be more beneficial - ie the Chancellor being a former finance director/economist , Health minister being a medical professional etc -
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115

    Nigelb said:

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
    Parties are a feature of pretty well every democracy, and seem to be necessary to their organised functioning at the national level.
    I’m no fan of them, and instinctively shy away from attaching myself to one, but they are not a ‘perversion’, even if some of their manifestations can be.
    What about introducing the secret ballot? In Parliament…
    Interesting idea, but how happy would constituents be about that ?
    I favour PR, since it would get rid of the two party lock on government. That’s certainly one of the thing which leads to rule by unrepresentative factions who temporarily seize hold of the party apparatus.
  • Options

    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    Turkey are quite close to Russia nowadays - more so than Nato really - Turkey may do a Nexit in a few years imo
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280
    Genuine red letter day on power generation:

    67% of electricity is from wind or solar at this moment. Less than 10% from gas and only 1.5% from biomass.

    That's got to be a record, surely?

    And it helps that demand is sensationally low for some reason even though France is sucking in power like you can't believe it, but it's still good news.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280
    Scott_xP said:
    That last paragraph is, oddly, how teachers feel about the DfE.

    Except for 'government' substitute 'real life.'
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,124
    Anyway, I'm off but the pre-race ramble with the incredibly insightful tip that fails due to monumental bad luck will be posted tomorrow.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328

    Minimum requirement for cabinet level posts should be 3 years experience as either junior minister or select committee in relevant departments only. Stop plonking MPs who have no knowledge of an area into the most important roles in the country.
    Whilst that may help, I think relevant experience in the outside world would be more beneficial - ie the Chancellor being a former finance director/economist , Health minister being a medical professional etc -
    Didnt Truss and Kwarteng both work in the city? Along with JRM and others in the cabinet. All still either mad or terribly informed.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Genuine red letter day on power generation:

    67% of electricity is from wind or solar at this moment. Less than 10% from gas and only 1.5% from biomass.

    That's got to be a record, surely?

    And it helps that demand is sensationally low for some reason even though France is sucking in power like you can't believe it, but it's still good news.

    demand is low because people delaying putting on heating and government buildings tend to work on a rigid 1st oct to 31 March heating on cycle . It is probably the time of year therefore for peak renewable. No bad thing of course but lets not pretend gas is not needed in huge quantities for many years to come
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280

    Anyway, I'm off but the pre-race ramble with the incredibly insightful tip that fails due to monumental bad luck Ferrari's latest unbelievable cockup will be posted tomorrow.

    FTFY :smile:
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,493
    Cicero said:

    The latest (Russian propagandist) RYBAR map - 3.00pm local time - shows Lyman in Ukrainian hands and the battlefront moved north and east by some 10km.

    https://twitter.com/WWIIIAR/status/1576185632564871174/photo/1

    As indeed was reported several hours ago. Looks like the fall of Lyman was like the road to Basra. A complete disaster for Russia.
    Russia confirming they have withdrawn from Lyman.

    Maybe some inverted commas required there, Russia.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280

    ydoethur said:

    Genuine red letter day on power generation:

    67% of electricity is from wind or solar at this moment. Less than 10% from gas and only 1.5% from biomass.

    That's got to be a record, surely?

    And it helps that demand is sensationally low for some reason even though France is sucking in power like you can't believe it, but it's still good news.

    demand is low because people delaying putting on heating and government buildings tend to work on a rigid 1st oct to 31 March heating on cycle . It is probably the time of year therefore for peak renewable. No bad thing of course but lets not pretend gas is not needed in huge quantities for many years to come
    This is electricity generation. Not gas heating. People's heating wouldn't be affecting it.

    (Anyway, it is October 1st. By your logic the heating should be spiking.)
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    Scott_xP said:

    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328

    Minimum requirement for cabinet level posts should be 3 years experience as either junior minister or select committee in relevant departments only. Stop plonking MPs who have no knowledge of an area into the most important roles in the country.
    Whilst that may help, I think relevant experience in the outside world would be more beneficial - ie the Chancellor being a former finance director/economist , Health minister being a medical professional etc -
    Didnt Truss and Kwarteng both work in the city? Along with JRM and others in the cabinet. All still either mad or terribly informed.
    well quite - it does not necessarily mean competence but surely it helps
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115
    Well the first of Putin’s new “possessions” is about to be taken away from him.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1576149053771063298
    Ukrainian troops enter Donetsk's Lyman as officials confirm liberation of five nearby settlements

    Liberation of Yampil, Novoselivka, Shandryholove, Drobysheve, Stavky is officially confirmed. Locals report Ukrainian troops in Lyman's northern end
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,280

    Scott_xP said:

    The lack of Treasury experience in the most senior positions is one notable element of the current situ.

    Perm sec: (empty)
    Second perm sec: (empty)
    Chancellor: 25 days
    Chief Sec: 25 days
    Finance Sec: 23 days

    So in five of the top Treasury jobs… **73 days** experience total.


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1576190729918947328

    Minimum requirement for cabinet level posts should be 3 years experience as either junior minister or select committee in relevant departments only. Stop plonking MPs who have no knowledge of an area into the most important roles in the country.
    What about the Civil Service?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,339

    Didnt Truss and Kwarteng both work in the city? Along with JRM and others in the cabinet. All still either mad or terribly informed.

    ...
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    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    Scott_xP said:
    I could give him some advice in just one paragraph.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,327
    ydoethur said:

    Genuine red letter day on power generation:

    67% of electricity is from wind or solar at this moment. Less than 10% from gas and only 1.5% from biomass.

    That's got to be a record, surely?

    And it helps that demand is sensationally low for some reason even though France is sucking in power like you can't believe it, but it's still good news.

    It'll be interesting if the wind lasts the day, we would have had more electricity over the day as a whole from nuclear than from gas. That can't happen very often.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115
    Ukrainian troops have entered the city of Lyman, Donetsk Oblast, confirmed the spokesman of the eastern grouping of the Ukrainian Armed Forces Serhiy Cherevatyi on the national telethon program.

    "We are already in Lyman, but there are still battles. Details will follow later."

    https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1576205473283735554
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,396

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    I'm surprised at you endorsing Halloween, which surely nurtures a dependency culture. Is it any wonder that the British are as our prime minister puts it the laziest people in the world when they are taught from a young age that they just have to dress up as Harry Potter and people will hand them a bag of haribos?
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    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    Turkey are quite close to Russia nowadays - more so than Nato really - Turkey may do a Nexit in a few years imo
    Turkey has history with Sweden.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,396

    Scott_xP said:
    I could give him some advice in just one paragraph.
    Two words would do it.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,493

    Scott_xP said:
    I could give him some advice in just one paragraph.
    One word: resign.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,595
    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,327

    ydoethur said:

    Genuine red letter day on power generation:

    67% of electricity is from wind or solar at this moment. Less than 10% from gas and only 1.5% from biomass.

    That's got to be a record, surely?

    And it helps that demand is sensationally low for some reason even though France is sucking in power like you can't believe it, but it's still good news.

    It'll be interesting if the wind lasts the day, we would have had more electricity over the day as a whole from nuclear than from gas. That can't happen very often.
    A reminder that the current record UK electricity from wind is 19.916 GW from May earlier this year. Would expect that to be broken a few times this winter.

    The 10 GW level was broken for the first time in January 2018. We've been continuously over that level for all of the last 24 hours.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101

    Scott_xP said:
    I could give him some advice in just one paragraph.
    A single word would suffice.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,986
    glw said:

    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?

    Probably not. They only elected the chief twerp a short time ago, so I would not expect too much.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,074
    edited October 2022

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    When you explain it like that, it does seem terribly inconsiderate that black history should intrude so much into your whole month of focusing on made up childish nonsense.
    "Childish nonsense" - do you consider Christmas to be childish nonsense?

    In case you missed it, most of that stuff I named (apart from the latte) is for my children. So excuse me if activities aimed for children are childish. I suppose Christmas Grottos are made up childish nonsense to you too? 🙄

    December being linked with Christmas, and October with Halloween, is not a novel or new concept. It just strikes me as odd that black history isn't linked to a month without a strong connection to something else already.
    Much prefer the older ways; Halloween almost unnoticed and a triviality except a bit for the 6-11 year olds on 31st October; November the month of remembrance - All Saints, All Souls, Remembrance Sunday. Advent in December (good season for listening to Bach) getting ready for Christmas, which begins on Christmas Eve, ending on 6th January, extending to 2nd Feb if you have the mind to do so. The world is a bit against this but I do my best. The days after 25th December are best - time for people and visitors, and a bit of time off. Think about a tree about 21st December.

    Every month should be Black History month to make up for past distortions in the western imagination.

  • Options
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    Oops….

    That isn’t me…
    @DailyMirror


    https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1576133060411523072

    Not a great start to “Black History Month”…

    I find the idea October is "Black History Month" is very odd. For me October is Halloween, in the same way as December is Christmas. Black and orange are the colours of October, but not that meaning of black.

    October is about witches, ghouls, skeletons, zombies, devils and so on . . . adding "black people" to that list seems more than a tad unfortunate.

    Just watched Hocus Pocus with the girls, it still holds up. Looking forward to watching Hocus Pocus 2 with them tonight.
    For me Halloween is the 31st and maybe the couple of days leading up to it, not the whole month.
    We enjoy Halloween for the whole month. Halloween movies whenever we watch a movie all month long, there's so many good ones you couldn't do them all in a day, and all the shops have Halloween stuff all month etc too. Plus other activities, we're going pumpkin picking later this month on a farm, then will be pumpkin carving after. The kids do Halloween activities at school, at Rainbows and Brownies. Oh and Pumpkin Spice Latte etc too.

    Halloween is a month long for us, not a day, any more than Christmas is just 25 December.
    You do realise of course that your personal experience of the world may differ from the rest of us,,,,,..
    Indeed but Bart isn't trying to push his experiences on you in the way Black History Month is pushed on the rest of us. He simply made an observation about what October means to him. To me it means something different again but I also don't seek to make others conform to my view.
    Out of all the shitty things happening in the world, learning about black history doesn't come close to making my list of things to get upset about.
    Sad that you can't tell the difference between an observation and getting upset. But then all you are really seeking to do is create division so I understand your hyperbole.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115

    Scott_xP said:
    I could give him some advice in just one paragraph.
    One word: resign.
    Resign now.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Haven't fully caught up yet, but am enjoying the mental whiplash on manifestos.

    When discussing PR and coalitions - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is crucial, compromise and coalitions damage the very fabric of our political system.

    When discussing a majority party making huge changes mid-term - the fact that we supposedly vote according to manifestos is irrelevant, they have no hold on a Government that can call upon a majority in the House of Commons under our political system.

    Fun.

    My personal take is the same for both: politicians elected as our representatives can compromise (with each other, with reality, and/or with ideology) as much as they like. But they will have to face the electorate afterwards, who will pass judgement on what compromises they decided to make.

    And politicians know this, and this will influence the House of Commons as a whole, and if it doesn't, they will face the electorate in due time. As did the Lib Dems after compromising away their tuition fees stance.

    This is why certain forms of PR - those which advocate party lists - are so pernicious. The result is that some MPs know they will get re-elected almost no matter what. Obviously there are a number of systems that don't work this way but anything that gives more power to the parties should be avoided.
    I still think the Danish option of unweighted lists is a happy compromise - yes, you have a party list, but you choose a specific person on it, and if party X gets N seats, they go to the N candidates with the most personal votes on the list. This encourages parties to seek diversity instead of robotic loyalty - for example, the Tories could have a list with Truss and Sunak and Gove and various other flavours, and if you like the Tories in general but want to avoid certain types of them, you can do exactly that. The party benefits by attracting a variety of support.

    It is also possible to simply vote for the party. Some Danish parties allocate such votes to the people at the top of the list, which does boost the power of the party to reward loyalty. Essentially the voter is saying "I like the Tories and delegate to them which individuals get seats". But others simply ignore those votes in deciding who gets the seats, and that's the variant I like.
    Not for me I'm afraid. It still gives too much power to the parties. Any system that allows the parties to claim that votes were for them rather than for an individual is a retrograde step in my eyes. We should be reducing the influence and power of the party over democratic politics rather than increasing it.
    Most people vote for a party and potential PM so not a convincing argument against the Danish system. Curtailing party control a good objective I agree, the Danish approach might be a good pragmatic compromise. If large multi-member constituencies were part of the system that would give competition within a constituency in terms of dealing with issues for constituents.
    No most people THINK they are voting for a party when in fact they are not. They are voting for an individual representative. That is what we should reinforce rather than giving more power to parties which are a perversion of the democratic system.
    Parties are a feature of pretty well every democracy, and seem to be necessary to their organised functioning at the national level.
    I’m no fan of them, and instinctively shy away from attaching myself to one, but they are not a ‘perversion’, even if some of their manifestations can be.
    The perversion is the way they control power through bribery and threat. I have no problems with partis per se. But they should not be allowed to pervert the democratic system by forcing MPs to vote against their own consciences or the best interests of their constituents. I admired Ken Clarke for his opposition to Brexit (even though I had less time for those who claimed they would support the result but then changed their tune after they were re-elected)

    Let the parties exist but remove their power to coerce rather than persuade MPs to support them.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,524
    ydoethur said:

    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    He has actually said that he will not approve it until they have enacted all the conditions he agreed to.

    Which, since they are in the process of enacting most of them, including lifting their arms embargo as of last night, seems to be mostly posturing for his domestic audience.
    It’s very elaborate street theatre - the Turks won’t actually get any Kurds extradited, and then know it, but they will get “concessions”. Which will make the voters in Turkey feel something has been done.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    Breaking: Russia has been voted out of the ICAO council (at UN for aviation here in Montreal) following a democratic vote by member states — the first time in history that a country has been voted out of the premier category of the council. #ICAO….

    Now: Russia is *refusing* to recognise the results of the election, demanding a second vote.

    ICAO Execs and over 170 countries remain gathered in the UN assembly hall grappling with what to do next

    Majority of countries are highlighting the election was free, fair & final #ICAO


    https://twitter.com/alexinair/status/1576222097281810432
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,518
    Just a few funny straws in the wind. A friend has just returned from Spain. He says that tens of thousands of Russian young men have turned up. Meanwhile on this morning´s ferries to Helsinki a huge number of Russian young men "with a lot of luggage". I think the suggested 250,000 Young Russians leaving the country may be an underestimate. Of course that kind of destroys the Russian army, but the Russian economy is also being shattered here too.

    Then there is the "rally" in Red Square. even the hand picked were not exactly rising to the blood curdling cries from the assorted fascists on stage. Obviously we know that most Russians are quiescent towards the regime, but even still..

    The crushing defeat at Lyman is now likely to be followed by more of the same, to the point that the Russian army can no longer function.

    It feels like Russia has gone over the cliff, and some kind of breakdown is emerging as the most likely future. I do not know what happens next, but the outlook for the regime is darkening by the day.

    "'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom".
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,115
    Russian sappers blew up a bridge on the only road out of Lyman too early - stopping their own convoy and exposing hundreds of Russia’s regular troops to a devastating ‘turkey shoot’ - a deliberate act to punish retreating survivors for disobeying Putin’s orders or a real mistake?
    https://twitter.com/joerichlaw/status/1576217831695216640
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,989
    The polling response to this week’s mini-budget is bigger than the one after Black Wednesday.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,524
    Cicero said:

    Just a few funny straws in the wind. A friend has just returned from Spain. He says that tens of thousands of Russian young men have turned up. Meanwhile on this morning´s ferries to Helsinki a huge number of Russian young men "with a lot of luggage". I think the suggested 250,000 Young Russians leaving the country may be an underestimate. Of course that kind of destroys the Russian army, but the Russian economy is also being shattered here too.

    Then there is the "rally" in Red Square. even the hand picked were not exactly rising to the blood curdling cries from the assorted fascists on stage. Obviously we know that most Russians are quiescent towards the regime, but even still..

    The crushing defeat at Lyman is now likely to be followed by more of the same, to the point that the Russian army can no longer function.

    It feels like Russia has gone over the cliff, and some kind of breakdown is emerging as the most likely future. I do not know what happens next, but the outlook for the regime is darkening by the day.

    "'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom".

    “There rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent; for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.”
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,976
    glw said:

    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?

    Interestingly Lord Heseltine will be attending his first Tory conference for many years. He will be speaking at a fringe event with David Gauke for the European Movement

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CjKrKpmKsQ7/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
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    glwglw Posts: 9,595

    Breaking: Russia has been voted out of the ICAO council (at UN for aviation here in Montreal) following a democratic vote by member states — the first time in history that a country has been voted out of the premier category of the council. #ICAO….

    Now: Russia is *refusing* to recognise the results of the election, demanding a second vote.

    ICAO Execs and over 170 countries remain gathered in the UN assembly hall grappling with what to do next

    Majority of countries are highlighting the election was free, fair & final #ICAO


    https://twitter.com/alexinair/status/1576222097281810432

    That's a good move. If we can't boot them out of the UN itself then removing them from subsidiary agencies instead will cause Russia some real trouble.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,302

    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    Sigh, what are they after this time?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    Conference off to a great start as the hosting Tory Mayor puts down the Chairman of the Young Conservative Network for calling Birmingham a dump. He then deletes the tweet, pretends to have sent it because of a mugging attempt, but multiple tweets to the same effect resurface.

    https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1576196176679870464
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,524
    kle4 said:

    Turkey again saying they will block Sweden’s NATO application.

    Sigh, what are they after this time?
    It’s like the voting for the Oscars - probably a really bling watch?
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    glw said:

    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?

    More chance of seeing Vlad's apparatchicks giving him the bird.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,660
    philiph said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    I haven’t read it so can anyone tell me if any of what is unfolding from our new leaders was in the 2019 Conservative Party manifesto?

    It matters not.
    Does to me, which is why I’m asking
    I don't think Covid or Ukrainian war were in the manifesto.
    Manifesto, from any party is a document of rubbish, you shoild never elect anyone who is so unimaginative that they think governing according to a givecyesr old plan is feasible or desireable.
    Should be called a Manfester
    I don't think Covid or Ukrainian war were in the manifesto.

    You clearly didn't listen to Putin's speech, then.
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,015

    Conference off to a great start as the hosting Tory Mayor puts down the Chairman of the Young Conservative Network for calling Birmingham a dump. He then deletes the tweet, pretends to have sent it because of a mugging attempt, but multiple tweets to the same effect resurface.

    https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1576196176679870464

    If he thinks Birmingham is the worst city in the U.K. he’s never been to Sunderland.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,986
    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?

    Interestingly Lord Heseltine will be attending his first Tory conference for many years. He will be speaking at a fringe event with David Gauke for the European Movement

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CjKrKpmKsQ7/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
    That will have all the sane Tories attending. I presume they booked only a small room?
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    glw said:

    Is there any chance of Tory members showing some sense and bottle and actually booing the twerps that will be speaking to them?

    Good afternoon

    I expect there will a lot of members, supporters and even mps keeping miles away
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,976

    Conference off to a great start as the hosting Tory Mayor puts down the Chairman of the Young Conservative Network for calling Birmingham a dump. He then deletes the tweet, pretends to have sent it because of a mugging attempt, but multiple tweets to the same effect resurface.

    https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1576196176679870464

    A bit harsh on Birmingham maybe but there is no doubt the majority of the Tory delegates would prefer the conference to be in Bournemouth or Harrogate
  • Options
    Cicero said:

    Just a few funny straws in the wind. A friend has just returned from Spain. He says that tens of thousands of Russian young men have turned up. Meanwhile on this morning´s ferries to Helsinki a huge number of Russian young men "with a lot of luggage". I think the suggested 250,000 Young Russians leaving the country may be an underestimate. Of course that kind of destroys the Russian army, but the Russian economy is also being shattered here too.

    Then there is the "rally" in Red Square. even the hand picked were not exactly rising to the blood curdling cries from the assorted fascists on stage. Obviously we know that most Russians are quiescent towards the regime, but even still..

    The crushing defeat at Lyman is now likely to be followed by more of the same, to the point that the Russian army can no longer function.

    It feels like Russia has gone over the cliff, and some kind of breakdown is emerging as the most likely future. I do not know what happens next, but the outlook for the regime is darkening by the day.

    "'Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom".

    Maybe also the ladies
This discussion has been closed.