As world leaders gather the papers at the end of the era – politicalbetting.com

System · September 2022

As world leaders gather the papers at the end of the era – politicalbetting.com

Read the full story here

Benpointer · September 2022

First!

DavidL · September 2022

Sad, sad, sad.

Benpointer · September 2022

Witty from the i: "Truss goes for broke in economy gamble"

bigjohnowls · September 2022

q closed 10.43pm

CarlottaVance · September 2022

The queue to attend Her Majesty The Queen's Lying-in-State is at final capacity and is now closed to new entrants

Please do not attempt to join the queue

Stewards will manage those already nearby

Thank you for your understanding

https://twitter.com/DCMS/status/1571615372758876161

bigjohnowls · September 2022

Nothing more from me till after the funeral

Pagan2 · September 2022

FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?

What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope

Benpointer · September 2022

DavidL said:
Sad, sad, sad.

Really?

I mean, I'm happy to commemorate the life of The Queen and respect that her passing is an important moment but I don't feel sad that a 96 year old woman dies peacefully having been until recently in good health and of sound mind.

The war in Ukraine makes me feel sad. The way many people are going to struggle this winter here in the UK makes me feel sad.

Theuniondivvie · September 2022

Fuxake.

Those trainers..

Benpointer · September 2022

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope

Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?

Benpointer · September 2022

Theuniondivvie said:
Fuxake.

Those trainers..

@Leon spotted in the queue

DavidL · September 2022

Benpointer said:

DavidL said:
Sad, sad, sad.
Really?

I mean, I'm happy to commemorate the life of The Queen and respect that her passing is an important moment but I don't feel sad that a 96 year old woman dies peacefully having been until recently in good health and of sound mind.

The war in Ukraine makes me feel sad. The way many people are going to struggle this winter here in the UK makes me feel sad.

Yes she lived a good life and had a good death. But I will miss the air of certainty and continuity that she has given to this country my entire life and then a little bit more.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?

Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves

Benpointer · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves

To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?

dixiedean · September 2022

Keep it in your mind
Do not forget
That it is not he, or she, or them or it,
That you belong to.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?

I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything

Pagan2 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything

will find it and pm you it

SandyRentool · September 2022

Bloke in an Orange Order sash has entered Westminster Hall!

Benpointer · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything

I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?

Dynamo · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves

It's a fallacy to see it as designed in the 17th century. It has been part and parcel of the mass media (and mass consumption) epoch. Was money "designed" in Phoenicia? Well sure but that doesn't get to the essence of how it works now. Parliamentary democracy is obviously an utter crock, but it still functions reasonably effectively to prop up the legitimacy of the state, as a "figleaf". They tell me there's a lot of this "like" and "dislike" sh*t on the internet nowadays too.

"Everyone is asked their opinion about every detail in order to prevent them from forming one about the totality".

Pagan2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?

sent a link in pm
happy to talk to you about it too you wont like it all

WhisperingOracle · September 2022

Theuniondivvie said:
Fuxake.

Those trainers..

'is that a union jack tea cosy or is he just pleased to see the man in front ?

Benpointer · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
sent a link in pm
happy to talk to you about it too you wont like it all

I've read it now thanks. Interesting thoughts, better than a descent into dictatorship which is my long-term fear for democracy tbh.

But no prospect of your ideas every being implemented, I'm afraid.

rottenborough · September 2022

Fecking awful front page from Guardian.

"descend" has a strong hint of condescension. Photo is dire.

I guess the duty editor on a sunday night is a republican.

rottenborough · September 2022

Al Murray - DKMS.ORG.UK 🇺🇦
@almurray
·
4h
The live stream of the lying in state on the iPlayer offers you the chance to restart the programme 🫠

Dynamo · September 2022

SandyRentool said:
Bloke in an Orange Order sash has entered Westminster Hall!

The king has promised to promote diversity!

Doing utterly ridiculous stuff with a straight face and an attitude that suggests "What on earth do you mean when you say I'm taking the p*ss?" might be quite a cool satirical artistic choice at the moment.

Perhaps a Frank-N-Furter character has joined the queue already?

Does "Iustum Necar Reges Impios" count as a "faith" thing that the king will "promote"? Asking for a friend.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
sent a link in pm
happy to talk to you about it too you wont like it all
I've read it now thanks. Interesting thoughts, better than a descent into dictatorship which is my long-term fear for democracy tbh.

But no prospect of your ideas every being implemented, I'm afraid.

No I doubt it but I hope its made you realise I am not just an angry man I do have thoughts on how we could make things better. I don't shout for the sake of it. I shout because I think things are wrong

Benpointer · September 2022

rottenborough said:
Fecking awful front page from Guardian.

"descend" has a strong hint of condescension. Photo is dire.

I guess the duty editor on a sunday night is a republican.

I thought the Radio Times had the best photo tbh:

kjh · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?

It was a rather good thread. I got into a discussion with Pagan and although I didn't agree with him he had some very interesting views and ideas. I encouraged him to write a thread header. He was reluctant, but eventually I and others convinced him to do so. It was very well received.

Pagan2 · September 2022

kjh said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
It was a rather good thread. I got into a discussion with Pagan and although I didn't agree with him he had some very interesting views and ideas. I encouraged him to write a thread header. He was reluctant, but eventually I and others convinced him to do so. It was very well received.

I sent him a link so up to him how he views me now

Benpointer · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
sent a link in pm
happy to talk to you about it too you wont like it all
I've read it now thanks. Interesting thoughts, better than a descent into dictatorship which is my long-term fear for democracy tbh.

But no prospect of your ideas every being implemented, I'm afraid.
No I doubt it but I hope its made you realise I am not just an angry man I do have thoughts on how we could make things better. I don't shout for the sake of it. I shout because I think things are wrong

Yes, noted. Apologies.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
sent a link in pm
happy to talk to you about it too you wont like it all
I've read it now thanks. Interesting thoughts, better than a descent into dictatorship which is my long-term fear for democracy tbh.

But no prospect of your ideas every being implemented, I'm afraid.
No I doubt it but I hope its made you realise I am not just an angry man I do have thoughts on how we could make things better. I don't shout for the sake of it. I shout because I think things are wrong
Yes, noted. Apologies.

smile accepted and easy to understand why you felt otherwise

DavidL · September 2022

Meanwhile some in the media start to catch up with the idea the gas subsidy is not going to be quite so expensive after all. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11222053/amp/Falling-gas-price-set-slash-PM-Liz-Truss-bailout-bill.html

Who could possibly have imagined that?

Foxy · September 2022

Theuniondivvie said:
Fuxake.

Those trainers..

Not to my taste, but I would diss red shoes or Radiohead on here.

The rest of his outfit though!

Benpointer · September 2022

DavidL said:
Meanwhile some in the media start to catch up with the idea the gas subsidy is not going to be quite so expensive after all. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11222053/amp/Falling-gas-price-set-slash-PM-Liz-Truss-bailout-bill.html

Who could possibly have imagined that?

Hang on. When I was proposing a few weeks ago that the energy cap be frozen you told me it was impossibily unaffordable.

SandyRentool · September 2022

Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.

Eabhal · September 2022

Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

kjh said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
It was a rather good thread. I got into a discussion with Pagan and although I didn't agree with him he had some very interesting views and ideas. I encouraged him to write a thread header. He was reluctant, but eventually I and others convinced him to do so. It was very well received.

Yes. As I recall, Pagan's thread post made several serious, reasonably specific proposals for reforming government. An appeal to reason, certainly more reasoned than emotive. Worthy of consideration and debate, which is what I remember, here on PB anyway.

kle4 · September 2022

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published

A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?

Pagan2 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kjh said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
Where did I ask for that? I merely said our democracy doesnt work anymore. Systems designed with 17th century society in mind dont always work in the modern world...I am sorry if you find that alarming but the turtle moves
To what? You seem to be against everything; what are you in favour of?
I wrote a thread header on how I felt democracy should change...no where did I suggest referendums for everything
I missed your thread header, sorry. Can you enlighten me in a few words?
It was a rather good thread. I got into a discussion with Pagan and although I didn't agree with him he had some very interesting views and ideas. I encouraged him to write a thread header. He was reluctant, but eventually I and others convinced him to do so. It was very well received.
Yes. As I recall, Pagan's thread post made several serious, reasonably specific proposals for reforming government. An appeal to reason, certainly more reasoned than emotive. Worthy of consideration and debate, which is what I remember, here on PB anyway.

I tried for non partisan neither left nor right. Proposal 6 as I remember was the sticking point that caused most discussion

Fishing · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?

The Swiss do and it seems to work just fine for them as just about the richest and most stable country in Europe.

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?

There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.

Pagan2 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.

No pastafarians or scientologists

kle4 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.

Yes, and prayers read by many of them - all very chummy thesedays.

It is good they've included the words to two verses of God Save the King, because lord knows I didn't know the second.

Looks like little Groge is going to be in the procession.

rottenborough · September 2022

If this isn't Trump basically saying he is running then I'm a dutchman.

The speech is utterly deranged and also utterly cynical on Putin levels. Apparently only he can save America from "the tyrants" who want to destroy it.

Neo-fascists bollocks and sadly looking like the next POTUS.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1571310011548323842

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

Foxy said:

Theuniondivvie said:
Fuxake.

Those trainers..

Not to my taste, but I would diss red shoes or Radiohead on here.

The rest of his outfit though!

Red shoes very papal.

Hope he and the guy with the Sash (that his grandfather wore before?) didn't get into a fist fight outside (or inside!) the hall.

kle4 · September 2022

I wonder if they'll take down from ebay the copies of the order of service for the funeral that are bound to appear.

rottenborough · September 2022

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.

Oh you just know one of them will be @Leon

rottenborough · September 2022

DavidL said:
Meanwhile some in the media start to catch up with the idea the gas subsidy is not going to be quite so expensive after all. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-11222053/amp/Falling-gas-price-set-slash-PM-Liz-Truss-bailout-bill.html

Who could possibly have imagined that?

Nobody knows anything about gas price trajectory this winter. Not least because it is dependant on there not being a cold winter across continental europe.

kle4 · September 2022

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.
Oh you just know one of them will be @Leon

Nah, he was going to skip the queue. Hopefully he can tell us.

Pagan2 · September 2022

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.
Oh you just know one of them will be @Leon
Nah, he was going to skip the queue. Hopefully he can tell us.

Is the mind image of leon the burly flint knapper skipping one we really want in our heads before we sleep?

Benpointer · September 2022

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.

The third from last person must be a bit pissed off tbh.

kle4 · September 2022

Christ, I was joking previously about it but the diplomat who serves as the Governor for Pitcairn really does get a seat at the funeral too, as an overseas territory. They don't miss a thing.

kle4 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.
Oh you just know one of them will be @Leon
Nah, he was going to skip the queue. Hopefully he can tell us.
Is the mind image of leon the burly flint knapper skipping one we really want in our heads before we sleep?

It was to keep us all awake til the funeral.

Pagan2 · September 2022

kle4 said:

Pagan2 said:

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.
Oh you just know one of them will be @Leon
Nah, he was going to skip the queue. Hopefully he can tell us.
Is the mind image of leon the burly flint knapper skipping one we really want in our heads before we sleep?
It was to keep us all awake til the funeral.

It is a nightmare I could do without

WhisperingOracle · September 2022

Another lot of "interesting" pledges / salutes at a Republican / Trumpite rally today ..

"Raise you right hand in the air ; American will have a rebirth of liberty".

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1571567482049298432

Anabobazina · September 2022

It will interesting to see if all this calms down somewhat after tomorrow. Hoping for a lovely service for a lady who served her country well, and tirelessly. RIP.

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists

No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?

kle4 · September 2022

Fishing said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
The Swiss do and it seems to work just fine for them as just about the richest and most stable country in Europe.

True, it works for them, but does anyone else do the same? By dint of much effort, luck and the right development of culture it seems like they've got a pretty good thing going, yet that doesn't mean it will fit everyone else.

kle4 · September 2022

Anabobazina said:
It will interesting to see if all this calms down somewhat after tomorrow. Hoping for a lovely service for a lady who served her country well, and tirelessly. RIP.

I think people would be pretty annoyed if things did not calm down. That's the whole point of a mourning period ending at the funeral after all, that after that everyone gets their shit together.

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

Benpointer said:

SandyRentool said:
Sky reporting last two in the Queue got golden wristbands.
The third from last person must be a bit pissed off tbh.

Those with even the most specious claims to having been cut off within earshot of the End of The Queue, will themselves become living legends, not just in their own minds, but in our interesting times.

At least treat them that way when they hit you up for a free beer. But just one.

Dynamo · September 2022

Google's logo has gone from grey to black now. What will they do as the big televised event in the Abbey gets even closer - play subliminals inducing tears?

They won't black out the whole page. That would lose them $$$.

Pagan2 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?

I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I

Dynamo · September 2022

kle4 said:

Anabobazina said:
It will interesting to see if all this calms down somewhat after tomorrow. Hoping for a lovely service for a lady who served her country well, and tirelessly. RIP.
I think people would be pretty annoyed if things did not calm down. That's the whole point of a mourning period ending at the funeral after all, that after that everyone gets their shit together.

Co-op stores are opening at 5pm tomorrow.

Anabobazina · September 2022

kle4 said:

Anabobazina said:
It will interesting to see if all this calms down somewhat after tomorrow. Hoping for a lovely service for a lady who served her country well, and tirelessly. RIP.
I think people would be pretty annoyed if things did not calm down. That's the whole point of a mourning period ending at the funeral after all, that after that everyone gets their shit together.

Let us see how it goes. Many people seem extremely upset by it.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Dynamo said:

kle4 said:

Anabobazina said:
It will interesting to see if all this calms down somewhat after tomorrow. Hoping for a lovely service for a lady who served her country well, and tirelessly. RIP.
I think people would be pretty annoyed if things did not calm down. That's the whole point of a mourning period ending at the funeral after all, that after that everyone gets their shit together.
Co-op stores are opening at 5pm tomorrow.

does that help starving russian troops?

Eabhal · September 2022

Dynamo said:
Google's logo has gone from grey to black now. What will they do as the big televised event in the Abbey gets even closer - play subliminals inducing tears?

They won't black out the whole page. That would lose them $$$.

Wish they would - save a bunch of carbon emissions

Pagan2 · September 2022

Eabhal said:

Dynamo said:
Google's logo has gone from grey to black now. What will they do as the big televised event in the Abbey gets even closer - play subliminals inducing tears?

They won't black out the whole page. That would lose them $$$.

Wish they would - save a bunch of carbon emissions

carbon emission arent the be all and end all some people still need to do things

Northern_Al · September 2022

rottenborough said:
If this isn't Trump basically saying he is running then I'm a dutchman.

The speech is utterly deranged and also utterly cynical on Putin levels. Apparently only he can save America from "the tyrants" who want to destroy it.

Neo-fascists bollocks and sadly looking like the next POTUS.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1571310011548323842

I watched this speech. It's genuinely scary. Very powerful, very clever, and somewhat deranged. I don't agree that it's neo-fascist - I think it's the speech of a genuine fascist demagogue. The over-arching narrative is very QAnon. It's the closest I've seen to how I imagine Hitler. He needs to be stopped, somehow.

Dynamo · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?

No Wiccans.

No pagans.

No Free Church of Scotland (Continuing or otherwise). The only representatives of "the churches of Scotland" are from the CoS, the Episcopalians, and the Roman Catholic church.

No Sephardim.

No Mormons.

No Jehovah's Witnesses.

No Ahmadiyya Muslims.

nico679 · September 2022

Judging by the photo which was only taken in May the Queens health seem to deteriorate very quickly after that . I don’t suppose we’ll ever know what was wrong with her.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Dynamo said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
No Wiccans.

No pagans.

No Free Church of Scotland (Continuing or otherwise). The only representatives of "the churches of Scotland" are from the CoS, the Episcopalians, and the Roman Catholic church.

No Sephardim.

speaking from the pagan point of view who would you invite we are non heirachal

as to wiccans well a religon cobbled together by a civil servant called gerald gardiner in 1956

Northern_Al · September 2022

nico679 said:
Judging by the photo which was only taken in May the Queens health seem to deteriorate very quickly after that . I don’t suppose we’ll ever know what was wrong with her.

She was 96?

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I

From what I know about the Emperor Norton I, his imperial highness would have greatly regretted any display of disrespect or discourtesy to a fellow sovereign - especially one of the stature and service as the late Queen.

Almost as much as his regret, when the Union and Confederacy both ignored his Order that the Cease and Desist immediate from waging the Civil War. IIRC he wrote to Queen Victoria, proposing that the two trans-Atlantic English-speaking monarchs made a joint appeal for peace. Sadly, Emperor Norton never received a reply, which he himself ascribed, not to Her Majesty's rudeness, but rather the habitual inefficiency of her courtiers.

Pagan2 · September 2022

Northern_Al said:

nico679 said:
Judging by the photo which was only taken in May the Queens health seem to deteriorate very quickly after that . I don’t suppose we’ll ever know what was wrong with her.
She was 96?

rubbish she was obviously offed by MI6/MI5/mossad/cia/The AA/IRA/RAC/AMA delete as applicable for your favourite conspiracy

SeaShantyIrish2 · September 2022

kle4 said:
Christ, I was joking previously about it but the diplomat who serves as the Governor for Pitcairn really does get a seat at the funeral too, as an overseas territory. They don't miss a thing.

He should maybe send one of the actual Pitcairn Islanders in his place, say someone currently resident in UK.

Pagan2 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:
Christ, I was joking previously about it but the diplomat who serves as the Governor for Pitcairn really does get a seat at the funeral too, as an overseas territory. They don't miss a thing.
He should maybe send one of the actual Pitcairn Islanders in his place, say someone currently resident in UK.

Will she be old enough to attend?

Pagan2 · September 2022

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I
From what I know about the Emperor Norton I, his imperial highness would have greatly regretted any display of disrespect or discourtesy to a fellow sovereign - especially one of the stature and service as the late Queen.

Almost as much as his regret, when the Union and Confederacy both ignored his Order that the Cease and Desist immediate from waging the Civil War. IIRC he wrote to Queen Victoria, proposing that the two trans-Atlantic English-speaking monarchs made a joint appeal for peace. Sadly, Emperor Norton never received a reply, which he himself ascribed, not to Her Majesty's rudeness, but rather the habitual inefficiency of her courtiers.

Probably true but a man of signifigance who probably did more good than bad so I take my hat off and salute joshua norton

JohnLilburne · September 2022

Dynamo said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
No Wiccans.

No pagans.

No Free Church of Scotland (Continuing or otherwise). The only representatives of "the churches of Scotland" are from the CoS, the Episcopalians, and the Roman Catholic church.

No Sephardim.

No Mormons.

No Jehovah's Witnesses.

No Ahmadiyya Muslims.

No representative of the Moscow Patriarchate

Dynamo · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

Dynamo said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
No Wiccans.

No pagans.

No Free Church of Scotland (Continuing or otherwise). The only representatives of "the churches of Scotland" are from the CoS, the Episcopalians, and the Roman Catholic church.

No Sephardim.
speaking from the pagan point of view who would you invite we are non heirachal

as to wiccans well a religon cobbled together by a civil servant called gerald gardiner in 1956

Right up the king's street, then, given the respect in which he held Gardner's fellow faker Idries Shah.

And he could have invited "the unknown pagan", given it's the Abbey.

rcs1000 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope

There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.

Pagan2 · September 2022

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.

I don't in the least disagree that all voting systems have their problems. I merely disagreed that not accepting pr makes me a misanthrope

rcs1000 · September 2022

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?

As is sadly typical, there is no Pastafarian representative.

Dynamo · September 2022

Dynamo said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
No Wiccans.

No pagans.

No Free Church of Scotland (Continuing or otherwise). The only representatives of "the churches of Scotland" are from the CoS, the Episcopalians, and the Roman Catholic church.

No Sephardim.

No Mormons.

No Jehovah's Witnesses.

No Ahmadiyya Muslims.

No Shintoists.
No Daoists.
No Spiritualists or Spiritists.
No manbos or oungans.

rcs1000 · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.
I don't in the least disagree that all voting systems have their problems. I merely disagreed that not accepting pr makes me a misanthrope

You're absolutely right.

It's your disdain for your fellow man that makes you a misanthrope.

Pagan2 · September 2022

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.
I don't in the least disagree that all voting systems have their problems. I merely disagreed that not accepting pr makes me a misanthrope
You're absolutely right.

It's your disdain for your fellow man that makes you a misanthrope.

I have no disdain for my fellow men I just dont think they should pollute the ecosphere by existing

WillG · September 2022

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.

Most forms of PR tend towards having no majority. That creates a major detriment to democracy, as the politicians can back out of manifesto pledges as the price of coalition and you the voter never know which ones they cynically will ditch. Single member ranked voting is the best system. If you desperately want more party power, you should have some form of PR squared to encourage majorities.

Andy_JS · September 2022

People who think democratic politics is rubbish ought to be move to a non-democratic country like, say, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

rcs1000 · September 2022

WillG said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.
Most forms of PR tend towards having no majority. That creates a major detriment to democracy, as the politicians can back out of manifesto pledges as the price of coalition and you the voter never know which ones they cynically will ditch. Single member ranked voting is the best system. If you desperately want more party power, you should have some form of PR squared to encourage majorities.

Unless the SNP's near lock on Scotland disappears, the UK is likely to end up with frequent coalitions too. In the last four elections, we've only had one workable majority - and that was the consequence of the Labour Party electing a Marxist terrorist sympathiser as Leader. (Indeed, small member STV would likely halve the number of SNP seats, making a majority more possible.)

Ultimately, the question is which do you find worse for democracy: an elected body that might have wildly disproportional results? Or an elected body where coalitions are more likely?

Neither is perfect.

WhisperingOracle · September 2022

Northern_Al said:

rottenborough said:
If this isn't Trump basically saying he is running then I'm a dutchman.

The speech is utterly deranged and also utterly cynical on Putin levels. Apparently only he can save America from "the tyrants" who want to destroy it.

Neo-fascists bollocks and sadly looking like the next POTUS.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1571310011548323842

I watched this speech. It's genuinely scary. Very powerful, very clever, and somewhat deranged. I don't agree that it's neo-fascist - I think it's the speech of a genuine fascist demagogue. The over-arching narrative is very QAnon. It's the closest I've seen to how I imagine Hitler. He needs to be stopped, somehow.

To think we all thought he'd be in jail by now..

rcs1000 · September 2022

Andy_JS said:
People who think democratic politics is rubbish ought to be move to a non-democratic country like, say, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.

Hard to disagree with that.

Pagan2 · September 2022

rcs1000 said:

Andy_JS said:
People who think democratic politics is rubbish ought to be move to a non-democratic country like, say, Russia, or Saudi Arabia.
Hard to disagree with that.

No one tonight has said democratic politics is bad, merely our sytem of democratic politics is bad and needs replacing

IshmaelZ · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I

Haile Selassie was great mates with her and spent 5 years in exile here

Pagan2 · September 2022

IshmaelZ said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I
Haile Selassie was great mates with her and spent 5 years in exile here

Take your word for it as I dont know much about rastafarians the clue being me saying "I dont know how they feel"

IshmaelZ · September 2022

Pagan2 said:

IshmaelZ said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Pagan2 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

kle4 said:

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published
A 'procession of religion representatives' apparently.

We've got:

President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
Representative of the Baha'i Community
Representative of the Jain Community
Representative of the Zoroastrian Community
Representative of the Buddhist Community
Representative of the Sikh Community
General Secretary of the Hindu Council UK
Interfaith Co-ordinator, Al-Khoei Foundation
A Muslim Scholar; and
Chief Rabbi of Great Britain

Any surprising omissions?
There is a large list of top clerics listed further below that list, which looks reasonably comprehensive with respect to Christian denominations.
No pastafarians or scientologists
No Rastafarians either, which feels like an omission? On part of the Palace or the Rastafarians - or both?
I have to question how rastafarians feel about the monarch. As far as I know pastafians and scientologists have no strong views on it which was I suggested omissions. I am not for example surprised to see no discordians listed as they still largely revere emporor norton I
Haile Selassie was great mates with her and spent 5 years in exile here
Take your word for it as I dont know much about rastafarians the clue being me saying "I dont know how they feel"

Ras Tafari Makonnen was Haile Selassie's name until he became emperor of Ethiopia, hence rastafarian. They thought he was the Second Coming.

Dynamo · September 2022

WhisperingOracle said:

Northern_Al said:

rottenborough said:
If this isn't Trump basically saying he is running then I'm a dutchman.

The speech is utterly deranged and also utterly cynical on Putin levels. Apparently only he can save America from "the tyrants" who want to destroy it.

Neo-fascists bollocks and sadly looking like the next POTUS.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1571310011548323842

I watched this speech. It's genuinely scary. Very powerful, very clever, and somewhat deranged. I don't agree that it's neo-fascist - I think it's the speech of a genuine fascist demagogue. The over-arching narrative is very QAnon. It's the closest I've seen to how I imagine Hitler. He needs to be stopped, somehow.
To think we all thought he'd be in jail by now..

As a speechmaker Trump shares the pained expression with Hitler. Not all fascists have it. Mosley for example mostly ranted.

It's a shame the grownups in the US Republican party didn't vote to convict him at his second impeachment trial. Or Pence could have Article 25'd him. Those Secret Service guys probably wish now they'd let him go to the Capitol on J6. If they had, his actions may well have killed a few hundred or a few thousand more people, but in the end he would have smashed against a brick wall and that would have been the last that was heard of him. Now, who knows, maybe it'll be a few million people. The guy is seriously mental and now he's got an even bigger grievance.

Yes he'll run again if he's not stopped, and if he does run he may win. He's even more "I'll show you motherf*****s" than he was before. If he does win, he'll cause big trouble. And this is all f***ing obvious right now.

Nigelb · September 2022

WillG said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
There is no perfect electoral system: it is merely a question of which problems you find most acceptable.

For example, one of the problems with the UK's First Past the Post is that it is difficult for minority views to gain a foothold against entrenched parties. I think the UK might have avoided getting in so deep with the EU if there was an opportunity for a Eurosceptic party to gain seats. There is also the problem, which the US has right now, where in many constituencies gaining your party's nomination is much more important than gaining the broad support of your electorate.

On the other hand, single member FPTP constituencies bring with them a direct local link between representatives and voters.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum, with Party List PR, the problem you have is that not only in the local link severed, but the power to choose individual representatives is taken out of the hands of voters and handed to party bosses. Against that: if enough people care about animal welfare to get an animal welfare party into Parliament, well that's OK.

The older I get, the more attracted I get to small constituency, multi-member STV: it retains local representation, while allowing voters to choose which of (for example) the three Conservative candidates is elected. And by having relatively small constituencies, it means that majorities - while slightly less rare than under FPTP - are far from impossible. It also allows popular independents a decent shot.
Most forms of PR tend towards having no majority. That creates a major detriment to democracy, as the politicians can back out of manifesto pledges as the price of coalition and you the voter never know which ones they cynically will ditch...

Because that never happens with FPTP.

Riiight.

DecrepiterJohnL · September 2022

Eabhal said:
Interesting that they have gone for sleep dearie sleep over some of the more popular laments.

See bottom for link to order of service:

https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-news/order-of-service-for-the-state-funeral-published

One of the hymns is Love Divine, who of course won the Oaks at Epsom in the year 2000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHl5-tyQxKc
(Love Divine is number 10, from stall 3, near the camera and close to the front from the start.)

Fishing · September 2022

kle4 said:

Fishing said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:
FPT because I am curious

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

Benpointer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

NickPalmer said:

Pagan2 said:

I am a normal run of the mill person. We think most politicians are crap no bodies. I talk to people all over the world and they all seem to think the same. No one cares who gets elected anymore as they are all crap
Why, then, do you think that turnout at elections in most countries exceeds 50% - indeed over 80% in some? You, like most of us, extrapolate from the people you know, who by semi-conscious self-selection tend to be people like you.
because most people still turn out and vote tribally frankly. On the other hand you have people like me , I like politics , I follow politics who have now stopped bothering because there frankly is no longer any point voting because its arsehole A or arselhole b the only choice is how you want to be buggered. As tribal voting decreases and it is I expect turnout to fall.
But if, as you say, they feel that it doesn't matter who wins, why vote tribally, or at all? I don't care who wins Wimbledon, so I don't attend. Do you take sides in things you don't care about?

Over time, I don't think voting globally has gone up or down much. As HYUFD implies, it goes up a bit when there's a charismatic leader on the field (to love or hate), down a bit when they're all a bit colourless.
I havent cast a vote in a general election since 2010,I was implying turnout is upheld by tribal votes. As more and more general feeling becomes it doesnt matter who wins I still get shat on that tribal voting will decrease and I think more people will become like me non voters. It doesn't mean we dont care because we do. It means we dont think voting makes a difference under the current system.
Would you be more inclined to vote under a PR system?
No because under pr I cast a vote with no idea what I am voting for. PR would stop me voting altogether
Ever thought of changing your ID to Misanthrope?
What is misanthopitic about saying I dont like the idea of pr? Under pr I cast a vote then the people I vote for get to decide what I voted for. Personally I prefer to vote for something rather than wait for politicians to decide what I voted for. Old fashioned views maybe but I dont understand why it makes me a misanthrope
Ah, I see. So you'd like the country run as a series of referendums?
The Swiss do and it seems to work just fine for them as just about the richest and most stable country in Europe.
True, it works for them, but does anyone else do the same? By dint of much effort, luck and the right development of culture it seems like they've got a pretty good thing going, yet that doesn't mean it will fit everyone else.

Not really at the national level, but some western US states do so.

The only way to know if it would work for us would be to give it a try. However as it would effectively strip our political class of much of their power I won't hold my breath.

Malmesbury · September 2022

Benpointer said:

Theuniondivvie said:
Fuxake.

Those trainers..

@Leon spotted in the queue

Shouldn’t such pictures be banned?

@DuraAce is probably in respiratory arrest

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