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ConHome survey has Truss 32% ahead – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xP said:

    Exc: YouGov Tory members / Sky News

    55% wrong to force Johnson from office
    40% right to force Johnson from office

    If Members could vote for Johnson as an option they would pick:

    46% Johnson
    24% Truss
    23% Sunak

    That's quite extraordinary and suggests the members don't particularly rate either Truss or Sunak. Her lead in the polls just has to be because he knifed Boris and she didn't. There can be no other explanation.
    That's your own explanation, there are plenty of other explanations and you only don't see them because you're wilfully blinded by your own hate.

    Alternative explanation is that many members rate both Johnson and Truss and would prefer Johnson but are quite happy with Truss too.

    EG I very much like Stokes but on a forced choice question I'd rather see Root be batting than Stokes. Doesn't mean I don't like Stokes though.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Here you go, most recent annual figures I can find.

    China = 2.9 tonnes per capita.

    UK = 0.03 tonnes per capita.
    What are those numbers? They don't look very like for like to me.

    Peak uK coal production 1913 292m T https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal
    UK pop 1913 46m https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/united-kingdom-facts

    UK 6.64 T per caput

    china 2.86 T per caput

    (4.07bn T, 1.4bn pop.)

    It is fair to compare peak to peak, for all sorts of reasons set out above. So, less than half.
    Those are 2019 figures.

    It is not right to compare peak to peak since the UK peak was before alternatives were invented, they've been invented now.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,631

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    Yes and no.

    What the UK does is fairly irrelevant except where we can engage in science and technology to invent clean alternatives which we then export to China (or more realistically they steal from us, copy and use themselves).

    So if you want to be helpful you can either protest outside the Chinese embassy, or get a STEM degree and work for a company or university that is researching or creating clean alternatives.

    Any noises the watermelon greens in this country make are about as useful and logical as a flagellation in the Medieval ages.
    Bart, that about the wily oriental copying our devilishly clever tech to sell back to us is a good 50 years out of date. Do you realise how many people there are in China, how many of them read STEM subjects at Chinese universities, and how much easier it is to design stuff when you have a full sized stuff factory up and running to do prototyping and shit?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    You think the environment knows what China is or what the UK is?

    I reckon not. I don't think it has a concept of countries.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757
    edited August 18

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    Greenpeace has a lot to answer for on Nuclear.
    Still flabbergasting that we didn't break ground on anything nuclear between 1988 and 2018.
    Nuclear is catastrophic is it goes wrong (there have been more than a handful of real life examples of course) - On the other hand why in god name was fracking stopped ?
    Every generation source has its risks and issues. On balance nuclear is a clean, middling price fairly reliable generation source though
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    Not often you get an English/British booster admitting that the UK has f.all influence and is an irrelevance, but I treasure these fleeting moments.

    Soft power? No power more like.
    "Dentures Out" - :smile:
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,259

    Scott_xP said:

    Exc: YouGov Tory members / Sky News

    55% wrong to force Johnson from office
    40% right to force Johnson from office

    If Members could vote for Johnson as an option they would pick:

    46% Johnson
    24% Truss
    23% Sunak

    That's quite extraordinary and suggests the members don't particularly rate either Truss or Sunak. Her lead in the polls just has to be because he knifed Boris and she didn't. There can be no other explanation.
    That's your own explanation, there are plenty of other explanations and you only don't see them because you're wilfully blinded by your own hate.

    Alternative explanation is that many members rate both Johnson and Truss and would prefer Johnson but are quite happy with Truss too.

    EG I very much like Stokes but on a forced choice question I'd rather see Root be batting than Stokes. Doesn't mean I don't like Stokes though.
    But I keep hearing how Truss has 'shone' and 'grown in stature' throughout the proceedings? After all this shining and growing in stature can she really do no better than match the hapless Sunak against the discredited criminal Boris?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    BREAKING: Trump Organization CFO Allen Weisselberg will plead guilty on Thursday to 15 felonies and has reportedly agreed to testify against the company regarding a 15-year tax fraud scheme.
    https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/status/1560021880182083584

    Net closing in. I really do think you and me have called this right - he's not regaining the WH. There are about 25 reasons why and at least one of them will crystalize.
    I still think he's favourite, but Biden is catching now.

    I'd say he is 60% likely to win the GOP nomination; 60% likely to win the presidency if he gets the nom.
    I'd have Biden at 80% & 40%.
    My freestanding Trumps are -

    To run either for GOP or Ind - 75%
    To get the GOP nom - 25%
    To regain the WH - 10%

    Sort of thing.
    Is this based on how people vote or how the votes get certified by the officials and courts overseeing the election.....
    Ha, point.

    No, it's ultimate outcome all things considered inc fraud, fiddle, fix and insurrection.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,365
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:



    The figures are slightly misleading (the UK has recently sent extra assistance, for example - and we're reportedly now running C17 flights between Pakistan and Romania to supply ammunition compatible with Ukraine's ex Russian kit), but the argument is not.

    In the FAA we had .32 ACP of Pakistani provenance for use in our aircrew issue PPs. Some rounds failed to penetrate cardboard targets at 15m. Still, I expect it was cheap.
    Did you try out their artillery or tank rounds ?
    From what I can see, there aren't many untapped sources left in Europe, so needs must. They have 300 or so T80s they bought from Ukraine a couple of decades back, which might be relevant:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20170630171200/http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/tanks/t-80ud.php
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited August 18

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Here you go, most recent annual figures I can find.

    China = 2.9 tonnes per capita.

    UK = 0.03 tonnes per capita.
    What are those numbers? They don't look very like for like to me.

    Peak uK coal production 1913 292m T https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal
    UK pop 1913 46m https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/united-kingdom-facts

    UK 6.64 T per caput

    china 2.86 T per caput

    (4.07bn T, 1.4bn pop.)

    It is fair to compare peak to peak, for all sorts of reasons set out above. So, less than half.
    Those are 2019 figures.

    It is not right to compare peak to peak since the UK peak was before alternatives were invented, they've been invented now.
    That is HYUFD level logic. Had we been at current renewables in 1913 we would still be at 3.5T coal per caput. Still ahead.

    We have had our IR, ladder pulled up, tough. It's a position with no justice in it at all (not that China would pay a blind bit of notice anyway). If we want to be a world player, not a 4th rate failed state, national self respect dictates that we stick to targets whether that makes a real difference or not, just as one doesn't shoplift from Tesco on the basis it makes no difference to their bottom line.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,465

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    Greenpeace has a lot to answer for on Nuclear.
    Still flabbergasting that we didn't break ground on anything nuclear between 1988 and 2018.
    Nuclear is catastrophic is it goes wrong (there have been more than a handful of real life examples of course) - On the other hand why in god name was fracking stopped ?
    Best sites are in Tory constituencies.
    When we can't get houses or solar farms approved, what chance fracking?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,488
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:



    The figures are slightly misleading (the UK has recently sent extra assistance, for example - and we're reportedly now running C17 flights between Pakistan and Romania to supply ammunition compatible with Ukraine's ex Russian kit), but the argument is not.

    In the FAA we had .32 ACP of Pakistani provenance for use in our aircrew issue PPs. Some rounds failed to penetrate cardboard targets at 15m. Still, I expect it was cheap.
    Did you try out their artillery or tank rounds ?
    Never personally fired anything > 20mm.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Here you go, most recent annual figures I can find.

    China = 2.9 tonnes per capita.

    UK = 0.03 tonnes per capita.
    What are those numbers? They don't look very like for like to me.

    Peak uK coal production 1913 292m T https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal
    UK pop 1913 46m https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/united-kingdom-facts

    UK 6.64 T per caput

    china 2.86 T per caput

    (4.07bn T, 1.4bn pop.)

    It is fair to compare peak to peak, for all sorts of reasons set out above. So, less than half.
    Those are 2019 figures.

    It is not right to compare peak to peak since the UK peak was before alternatives were invented, they've been invented now.
    That is HYUFD level logic. Had we been at current renewables in 1913 we would still be at 3.5T coal per caput. Still ahead.

    We have had our IR, ladder pulled up, tough. It's a position with no justice in it at all (not that China would pay a blind bit of notice anyway). If we want to be a world player, not a 4th rate failed state, national self respect dictates that we stick to targets whether that makes a real difference or not, just as one doesn't shoplift from Tesco on the basis it makes no difference to their bottom line.
    I do hope none of your money came from the triangular trade...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Here you go, most recent annual figures I can find.

    China = 2.9 tonnes per capita.

    UK = 0.03 tonnes per capita.
    What are those numbers? They don't look very like for like to me.

    Peak uK coal production 1913 292m T https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal
    UK pop 1913 46m https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/united-kingdom-facts

    UK 6.64 T per caput

    china 2.86 T per caput

    (4.07bn T, 1.4bn pop.)

    It is fair to compare peak to peak, for all sorts of reasons set out above. So, less than half.
    Those are 2019 figures.

    It is not right to compare peak to peak since the UK peak was before alternatives were invented, they've been invented now.
    That is HYUFD level logic. Had we been at current renewables in 1913 we would still be at 3.5T coal per caput. Still ahead.

    We have had our IR, ladder pulled up, tough. It's a position with no justice in it at all (not that China would pay a blind bit of notice anyway). If we want to be a world player, not a 4th rate failed state, national self respect dictates that we stick to targets whether that makes a real difference or not, just as one doesn't shoplift from Tesco on the basis it makes no difference to their bottom line.
    I do hope none of your money came from the triangular trade...
    Non olet pecunia...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,698

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,687
    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367
    edited August 18
    In the spirit of having a rounded view of what it’s like on the ground for both sides in the Ukranian conflict, this is a bleak thread on the war of a Russian paratrooper. Tbh if his experience is widespread, I’m surprised that the Russians have manage to sustain the special operation as long as they have.



    https://twitter.com/chriso_wiki/status/1560022545356791810?s=21&t=2b7Yt4XQBoMIrOXtUFNxkQ


  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,987
    edited August 18

    Scott_xP said:

    Exc: YouGov Tory members / Sky News

    55% wrong to force Johnson from office
    40% right to force Johnson from office

    If Members could vote for Johnson as an option they would pick:

    46% Johnson
    24% Truss
    23% Sunak

    That's quite extraordinary and suggests the members don't particularly rate either Truss or Sunak. Her lead in the polls just has to be because he knifed Boris and she didn't. There can be no other explanation.
    That's your own explanation, there are plenty of other explanations and you only don't see them because you're wilfully blinded by your own hate.

    Alternative explanation is that many members rate both Johnson and Truss and would prefer Johnson but are quite happy with Truss too.

    EG I very much like Stokes but on a forced choice question I'd rather see Root be batting than Stokes. Doesn't mean I don't like Stokes though.
    But I keep hearing how Truss has 'shone' and 'grown in stature' throughout the proceedings? After all this shining and growing in stature can she really do no better than match the hapless Sunak against the discredited criminal Boris?
    Again that's your own hate shining through.

    You need to look through the eyes of the people answering this question.

    Alternative answer is that after all this shining and growing in stature Truss is a worthy successor to a great departing PM who is a political titan who won the Brexit referendum, won an eighty seat majority, got Brexit done, defeated COVID with a world beating vaccines program and helped lead the West in supporting Ukraine to defeat Vladimir Putin.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,488
    \
    Scott_xP said:

    Exc: YouGov Tory members / Sky News

    55% wrong to force Johnson from office
    40% right to force Johnson from office

    If Members could vote for Johnson as an option they would pick:

    46% Johnson
    24% Truss
    23% Sunak

    Johnson has to believe a comeback is on the cards with numbers like those. LotO in 2024 and PM again in 2028 must be the plan. Probably on a platform of rejoin by then.

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    The best thing, of course, is to pick the person who you think will do the best job.

    If you have diversity issues, then consciously try to include some people with characteristics you are lacking in your shortlist for consideration, but then still choose the best person.

    I don't think there's a simple answer to who is the best new host for UC (and different people will have different opinions) but I'd rate Rajan as highly as the other people I saw mentioned.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    This one?
    image

    Well, certainly prominent, but you're younger and blacker and more female than I thought you were. Just goes to show you can't pigeonhole a PB poster.
    Yep that one. I'm - as always - towards the left.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Here you go, most recent annual figures I can find.

    China = 2.9 tonnes per capita.

    UK = 0.03 tonnes per capita.
    What are those numbers? They don't look very like for like to me.

    Peak uK coal production 1913 292m T https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal
    UK pop 1913 46m https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/united-kingdom-facts

    UK 6.64 T per caput

    china 2.86 T per caput

    (4.07bn T, 1.4bn pop.)

    It is fair to compare peak to peak, for all sorts of reasons set out above. So, less than half.
    Those are 2019 figures.

    It is not right to compare peak to peak since the UK peak was before alternatives were invented, they've been invented now.
    That is HYUFD level logic. Had we been at current renewables in 1913 we would still be at 3.5T coal per caput. Still ahead.

    We have had our IR, ladder pulled up, tough. It's a position with no justice in it at all (not that China would pay a blind bit of notice anyway). If we want to be a world player, not a 4th rate failed state, national self respect dictates that we stick to targets whether that makes a real difference or not, just as one doesn't shoplift from Tesco on the basis it makes no difference to their bottom line.
    That's silly. Efficiencies and technologies exist throughout the entire manufacturing processes not just in renewables technology.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311
    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Topping will be over the moon. He thinks Rajan is the absolute bees. Big big fan.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    Don't think I've ever heard of him before, but if he's a radio presenter he presumably has a good voice, if he's written a book you found interesting he's presumably bright and if he's a fan of the show he'll (a) know how it works and (b) want to make it succeed. So he certainly sounds a good choice. Will be interesting to see him in action.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,591
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    Probably unfair. There is a plausible view that AGW may well but may not be fully established, but the precautionary principle applies and that this being the case the UK is doing reasonably well compared with China and the USA.

    I don't know anyone who says that we should do nothing but China should do lots because different rules apply.

  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,365

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    I think he's a very good choice, as he has the requisite speed of thought, sense of humour and verbal dexterity.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757
    edited August 18
    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    I think Denmark is in a good spot going forward - their electricity is actually quite expensive at the moment but most of it is tax (Like our petrol and diesel) so there's scope to reduce if they really have to. Their wind nameplate capacity is ~ 1.05 KW/person and approx 80% renewables in their mix. Just over 2% of their mix is from gas at the moment.

    https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DK-DK1

    They're a realistic country to compare to - like us they don't have the free and easy hydro potential that say Norway does.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,365
    Nice use of all those old insect collections.

    Museum collections indicate bees increasingly stressed by changes in climate over the past 100 years
    https://phys.org/news/2022-08-museum-bees-increasingly-stressed-climate.html
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,627
    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    You can capture the carbon now.

    I think for a country that is so blessed in natural resources to be in the position that we appear to be facing, a serious change in direction is needed. 'National self respect' is a very poor second to being able to heat ones home.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,627
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    Probably unfair. There is a plausible view that AGW may well but may not be fully established, but the precautionary principle applies and that this being the case the UK is doing reasonably well compared with China and the USA.

    I don't know anyone who says that we should do nothing but China should do lots because different rules apply.

    But yet John Kerry thinks its OK to fly over here and tell us not to open a new coal mine.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,826
    edited August 18

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    You can capture the carbon now.

    I think for a country that is so blessed in natural resources to be in the position that we appear to be facing, a serious change in direction is needed. 'National self respect' is a very poor second to being able to heat ones home.
    Has anywhere got a working carbon capture scheme at the moment?

    And I would argue that freedom is far more important than temporary heating issues...

    As @rcs1000 would happily point out the lack of gas supply in Europe will be fixed as work is done to reduce demand and LNG tankers are built to allow more to be transported....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757
    Christ, just seen how much coal Australia uses. It's hardly a developing third world nation.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569
    Nigelb said:

    Study of over 80k births shows no increase in risk associated with Covid vaccination during pregnancy.
    https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2022-071416

    Only skimmed the abstract, but unless I misread it, there's evidence for a protective effect for very pre-term birth and stillbirth (adjusted hazard ratios; I didn't read on to see what was included in the adjustment model)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    Probably unfair. There is a plausible view that AGW may well but may not be fully established, but the precautionary principle applies and that this being the case the UK is doing reasonably well compared with China and the USA.

    I don't know anyone who says that we should do nothing but China should do lots because different rules apply.
    Well it's fair as regards the people it describes. One can do no more.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    You can capture the carbon now.

    I think for a country that is so blessed in natural resources to be in the position that we appear to be facing, a serious change in direction is needed. 'National self respect' is a very poor second to being able to heat ones home.
    True. We really should have taken advantage of those natural resources by cracking on with wind and tidal power, to a greater extent than we have done.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,155

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    He is most importantly a fan of the show .You want somebody doing it for the love of it ,not just a job to do. Liked how he loved its high standards - a bit unusual to say that in this having to say sorry for being "elitist" society we have become
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,696
    I see Sidmouth is one of the beaches pumped with shit, @SouthamObserver.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,757
    Pulpstar said:

    Christ, just seen how much coal Australia uses. It's hardly a developing third world nation.

    Loads of coal still in use in Japan and South Korea, USA... I thought (Rich nations at least) were - well it seems we're fighting against climate change with the UK playing the role that the British public did during Covid and others adhering to "the rules" about as well as Boris did.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,938
    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    You can capture the carbon now.

    I think for a country that is so blessed in natural resources to be in the position that we appear to be facing, a serious change in direction is needed. 'National self respect' is a very poor second to being able to heat ones home.
    Has anywhere got a working carbon capture scheme at the moment?

    And I would argue that freedom is far more important than temporary heating issues...

    As @rcs1000 would happily point out the lack of gas supply in Europe will be fixed as work is done to reduce demand and LNG tankers are built to allow more to be transported....
    Sometime ago I saw something on the tv where they were using carbon capture and then using (some of?) it to feed greenhouses. Sorry can't remember anything else eg where? experimental?, etc.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921
    With Leach out, England not going to make 200 even if South Africa lend them a batsman.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,155
    edited August 18
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    The best thing, of course, is to pick the person who you think will do the best job.

    If you have diversity issues, then consciously try to include some people with characteristics you are lacking in your shortlist for consideration, but then still choose the best person.

    I don't think there's a simple answer to who is the best new host for UC (and different people will have different opinions) but I'd rate Rajan as highly as the other people I saw mentioned.
    yes unfortunately these days more than ever (or since perhaps 1930s Germany) we are pigeonholed according to our race - So you get this tedious challenge all the time of what race (or gender ) a post should ideally be and whinging from some when not. No doubt somebody on Twitter or whatever will complain that all 3 presenters are male or straight etc -

    This is the downside to our current obsession of seeing everyone through race, gender or sexuality . Its to use an overused phrase ,getting "toxic"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,996
    Some MPs are predicting that the former chancellor will opt to leave Parliament if he loses the battle for No10 - although allies insist he is 'not going anywhere'.

    Senior Conservatives believe Mr Sunak has 'burned his boats' during the contest - due to come to a conclusion on September 5 - and is unlikely to be offered a job he could accept.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11122787/Liz-Truss-track-PM-poll-finding-66-Tory-members-her.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,931
    edited August 18
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:



    The figures are slightly misleading (the UK has recently sent extra assistance, for example - and we're reportedly now running C17 flights between Pakistan and Romania to supply ammunition compatible with Ukraine's ex Russian kit), but the argument is not.

    In the FAA we had .32 ACP of Pakistani provenance for use in our aircrew issue PPs. Some rounds failed to penetrate cardboard targets at 15m. Still, I expect it was cheap.
    In my days with the Syrian FKK we rode Oldmaster X11’s with 248.5 torque even in mid gear. The SM Necklace Truss actually pinged over the Helsinki Sunakfield but I’ve still got the 311 x to x Hustings which I keep in my garage in Normandy. Death traps
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    Christ, just seen how much coal Australia uses. It's hardly a developing third world nation.

    Produces. 70% exported.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    I think he's a very good choice, as he has the requisite speed of thought, sense of humour and verbal dexterity.
    I think he's smart but facile. The stushie over his 'special' on Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was telling, not so much because Rajan had done it but his apparently genuine incomprehension of why some people might have a problem with the way it was presented.

    I'm quite fond of UC, but in general I think there's far too much picking over these things as if they're massive foundations stones of our culture rather than at most fairly minor ones. The BBC is particularly bad for this, specially when examining its own entrails.

    'Peggy Woolley to leave Ambridge, a nation holds its breath!!!'
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,149
    Shitty Britain.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,931

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    I think he's a very good choice, as he has the requisite speed of thought, sense of humour and verbal dexterity.
    I think he's smart but facile. The stushie over his 'special' on Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was telling, not so much because Rajan had done it but his apparently genuine incomprehension of why some people might have a problem with the way it was presented.

    I'm quite fond of UC, but in general I think there's far too much picking over these things as if they're massive foundations stones of our culture rather than at most fairly minor ones. The BBC is particularly bad for this, specially when examining its own entrails.

    'Peggy Woolley to leave Ambridge, a nation holds its breath!!!'
    Indeed, it is not like they are appointing the next head judge of Strictly.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,687

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311
    ydoethur said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    Don't think I've ever heard of him before, but if he's a radio presenter he presumably has a good voice, if he's written a book you found interesting he's presumably bright and if he's a fan of the show he'll (a) know how it works and (b) want to make it succeed. So he certainly sounds a good choice. Will be interesting to see him in action.
    The part of the UC job where the presenter most matters imo is the 'banter' with the teams - since I'd have thought most professional media people could read the Qs out and keep score and build an atmosphere ok.

    You need some banter otherwise it's too vanilla but you don't want too much or it becomes something else. And you definitely don't want banter that tries too hard and doesn't quite come off. No banter is better than bad banter.

    This aspect is where Paxman, with his Parkinson's, has been struggling for some time, having to become rather stiff and robotic to get through things. Nothing that ruins the show or anything but I guess it is time to replace him and I don't see why Amol won't be good.
  • Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569
    edited August 18

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    The best thing, of course, is to pick the person who you think will do the best job.

    If you have diversity issues, then consciously try to include some people with characteristics you are lacking in your shortlist for consideration, but then still choose the best person.

    I don't think there's a simple answer to who is the best new host for UC (and different people will have different opinions) but I'd rate Rajan as highly as the other people I saw mentioned.
    yes unfortunately these days more than ever (or since perhaps 1930s Germany) we are pigeonholed according to our race - So you get this tedious challenge all the time of what race (or gender ) a post should ideally be and whinging from some when not. No doubt somebody on Twitter or whatever will complain that all 3 presenters are male or straight etc -

    This is the downside to our current obsession of seeing everyone through race, gender or sexuality . Its to use an overused phrase ,getting "toxic"
    I saw an article shortly after England's Euros win about the lack of ethnic diversity, set up as young black/asian women seeing little to identify with in the team. Which is a bit sad, really. Sure, if women's football in this country is very white, look at why and what can be done to encourage ethnic minority participation, but the idea that you can only identify with your national team if it has people that are quite like you is for the birds. I'm a man and shit at football, so I have little in common with the England women's team, but I didn't have much trouble supporting them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,333
    ydoethur said:

    With Leach out, England not going to make 200 even if South Africa lend them a batsman.

    This morning's effort has been every bit as ordinary as yesterday's. The odds must surely favour SA only having to bat once.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
    "China is already leading in renewable energy production figures. It is currently the world’s largest producer of wind and solar energy,9 and the largest domestic and outbound investor in renewable energy.10 Four of the world’s five biggest renewable energy deals were made by Chinese companies in 2016. As of early 2017, China owns five of the world’s six largest solar-module manufacturing companies and the world’s largest wind turbine manufacturer."

    https://www.csis.org/east-green-chinas-global-leadership-renewable-energy

    You want us to be world leader in renewables tec, but trivially small and irrelevant if we wanna burn the odd bit of fossil fuel, and you want billions of people not to be lifted out of poverty when they could be to make life easier.

    Plus there's your realpolitik schtick about how nations are always breaching treaty obligations, happens all the time, sign of mature nationhood. as what China is doing is not even breaching obligations, but refusing to enter into them, how does that work?

    And why don't we hear more from you about the USA with twice the per capita emissions of China, three times the UK, second in gross emissions, all despite getting its IR done n dusted?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,687
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    With Leach out, England not going to make 200 even if South Africa lend them a batsman.

    This morning's effort has been every bit as ordinary as yesterday's. The odds must surely favour SA only having to bat once.
    At the risk of cliche, its usually wise to see both sides batting before deciding how bad a score the first innings is. However I fear you are correct this time!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367

    Shitty Britain.

    There is nothing to be done, China pumps out a whole load more shit than us.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,996
    Cicero said:

    The same applies domestically here, and the Estonian politicians seen as "compromised" are increasingly facing public opprobrium. The former Centre Party PM, Juri Ratas, who attempted to distabilise the coalition a couple of months ago is now facing problems of his own, and far-right figures are getting challenged on their own links to Moscow. Would that certain UK politicians were challenged in the same way. Perhaps some of them will be, after the Conservative leadership election is out of the way.

    These digs against the UK are pretty silly.

    Estonia has a substantial Russian minority. It's a category error to compare their political 'links to Moscow' with conspiracy theories about figures in Britain.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,774

    Shitty Britain.

    Always happened in heavy rain events, EU directive or not.

    Why so much run off is directed into the foul water drain is another question...
  • IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
    "China is already leading in renewable energy production figures. It is currently the world’s largest producer of wind and solar energy,9 and the largest domestic and outbound investor in renewable energy.10 Four of the world’s five biggest renewable energy deals were made by Chinese companies in 2016. As of early 2017, China owns five of the world’s six largest solar-module manufacturing companies and the world’s largest wind turbine manufacturer."

    https://www.csis.org/east-green-chinas-global-leadership-renewable-energy

    You want us to be world leader in renewables tec, but trivially small and irrelevant if we wanna burn the odd bit of fossil fuel, and you want billions of people not to be lifted out of poverty when they could be to make life easier.

    Plus there's your realpolitik schtick about how nations are always breaching treaty obligations, happens all the time, sign of mature nationhood. as what China is doing is not even breaching obligations, but refusing to enter into them, how does that work?

    And why don't we hear more from you about the USA with twice the per capita emissions of China, three times the UK, second in gross emissions, all despite getting its IR done n dusted?
    Funny how you want to divide China's emissions to per capita, but then object when that's actually done as the numbers still don't suit your agenda so switch to figures from over a hundred years ago. But when it comes to renewables you want to aggregate all China's figures together, not have them as per capita comparable. Funny that.

    Realpolitik absolutely does work and we need to be engaging in it. We should be looking at a system of carbon tariffs on imports to put a price signal on carbon that is imported and not export our carbon emissions to nations that use more polluting technologies than we do. That is a realpolitik solution we can engage in.

    As for why you don't hear more from me about the USA it is because I don't see anyone hear defending or minimising the role of the USA to respond to, so it goes without saying. I absolutely agree that the USA isn't doing enough and have said so before many times. The USA should be doing much, much better like the UK is.

    Unprompted if you want another example, so too should Australia.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    I think he's a very good choice, as he has the requisite speed of thought, sense of humour and verbal dexterity.
    I think he's smart but facile. The stushie over his 'special' on Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was telling, not so much because Rajan had done it but his apparently genuine incomprehension of why some people might have a problem with the way it was presented.

    I'm quite fond of UC, but in general I think there's far too much picking over these things as if they're massive foundations stones of our culture rather than at most fairly minor ones. The BBC is particularly bad for this, specially when examining its own entrails.

    'Peggy Woolley to leave Ambridge, a nation holds its breath!!!'
    You're absolutely right (that it doesn't matter much) but unfortunately I read your post just too late. My 3 paras of closely argued opinion on the matter had already escaped.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,569
    edited August 18
    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    Not sure. Wasn't Brexit supposed to lead to sunny uplands? With all that sun drying things out, when the occasional storm comes it runs right off the uplands into the sewers...

    And the other side said that Brexit would lead to a release of all kinds of shit. So a rare occasion where both leavers and remainers effectively predicted this.
  • Shitty Britain.

    Always happened in heavy rain events, EU directive or not.

    Why so much run off is directed into the foul water drain is another question...
    In the current circumstances it is because the drought means the land doesn't absorb the rain as well as it should do normally so it runs off into drainage instead. If we weren't in a drought the land would better be able to absorb the water, which is a bit of a Catch 22.

    We were discussing this yesterday before it even started raining.
  • Shitty Britain.

    There is nothing to be done, China pumps out a whole load more shit than us.
    You do your best at keeping us up there though.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,333
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    That certainly makes many of the posts on here a lot easier to follow. Thanks!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    DearPB said:

    Following the University Challenge announcement the comments on the Daily Telegraph story are openly explicitly racist. Extraordinary

    Oo I missed that announcement. I hadn't thought of him during the discussions on here the other day but now he is mentioned I think he is a good choice. It needs someone a bit assertive (although Paxman was at times a bit OTT and sneary) and I think Rajan has the right persona for it. Clive Myrie has vastly improved Mastermind and although I don't think UC needs improving hopefully Rajan will have the necessary gravitas.

    Fuck the Telegraph readers.
    Someone did mention him in the discussion on here, I think. I agree. He comes across well when I've heard him, good choice.
    Amol is a decent choice. He wrote an interesting book about spinners and probably showed his own biases towards sub-continental player there, but that's no bad thing. You are damned whatever you do now. Pick an older white male and its an issue for some. Pick a minority candidate and its a problem for some. Why not see how they do the job?
    I think he's a very good choice, as he has the requisite speed of thought, sense of humour and verbal dexterity.
    I think he's smart but facile. The stushie over his 'special' on Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was telling, not so much because Rajan had done it but his apparently genuine incomprehension of why some people might have a problem with the way it was presented.

    I'm quite fond of UC, but in general I think there's far too much picking over these things as if they're massive foundations stones of our culture rather than at most fairly minor ones. The BBC is particularly bad for this, specially when examining its own entrails.

    'Peggy Woolley to leave Ambridge, a nation holds its breath!!!'
    You're absolutely right (that it doesn't matter much) but unfortunately I read your post just too late. My 3 paras of closely argued opinion on the matter had already escaped.
    It's always worth giving closely argued opinion on fairly minor foundation stones of our culture :)
    In fact PB wouldn't exist if people stopped providing closely argued opinion even on meaningless shit!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,311

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
    Ok very good. But be wary of a "markets will fix it" absolutist mentality. You are prone to this on occasion if we're being totally honest (as we should try to be).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,488
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    Brexit gets the blame for everything from now on. Get used to it. You are going to be forced to defend it every day.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,333
    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    Not sure. Wasn't Brexit supposed to lead to sunny uplands? With all that sun drying things out, when the occasional storm comes it runs right off the uplands into the sewers...

    And the other side said that Brexit would lead to a release of all kinds of shit. So a rare occasion where both leavers and remainers effectively predicted this.
    You saying we haven't had sunny uplands? Blimey, how much of this sun stuff do you want?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    You don't understand.

    The EU was blamed for everything sub optimal and now the wheel has turned. It's your tiger, ride it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    Greenpeace has a lot to answer for on Nuclear.
    Still flabbergasting that we didn't break ground on anything nuclear between 1988 and 2018.
    Nuclear is catastrophic is it goes wrong (there have been more than a handful of real life examples of course) - On the other hand why in god name was fracking stopped ?
    Every generation source has its risks and issues. On balance nuclear is a clean, middling price fairly reliable generation source though
    Middling price?

    Citation required. No nuclear power plant has been built anywhere on the planet without massive state subsidy.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
    "China is already leading in renewable energy production figures. It is currently the world’s largest producer of wind and solar energy,9 and the largest domestic and outbound investor in renewable energy.10 Four of the world’s five biggest renewable energy deals were made by Chinese companies in 2016. As of early 2017, China owns five of the world’s six largest solar-module manufacturing companies and the world’s largest wind turbine manufacturer."

    https://www.csis.org/east-green-chinas-global-leadership-renewable-energy

    You want us to be world leader in renewables tec, but trivially small and irrelevant if we wanna burn the odd bit of fossil fuel, and you want billions of people not to be lifted out of poverty when they could be to make life easier.

    Plus there's your realpolitik schtick about how nations are always breaching treaty obligations, happens all the time, sign of mature nationhood. as what China is doing is not even breaching obligations, but refusing to enter into them, how does that work?

    And why don't we hear more from you about the USA with twice the per capita emissions of China, three times the UK, second in gross emissions, all despite getting its IR done n dusted?
    Funny how you want to divide China's emissions to per capita, but then object when that's actually done as the numbers still don't suit your agenda so switch to figures from over a hundred years ago. But when it comes to renewables you want to aggregate all China's figures together, not have them as per capita comparable. Funny that.

    Realpolitik absolutely does work and we need to be engaging in it. We should be looking at a system of carbon tariffs on imports to put a price signal on carbon that is imported and not export our carbon emissions to nations that use more polluting technologies than we do. That is a realpolitik solution we can engage in.

    As for why you don't hear more from me about the USA it is because I don't see anyone hear defending or minimising the role of the USA to respond to, so it goes without saying. I absolutely agree that the USA isn't doing enough and have said so before many times. The USA should be doing much, much better like the UK is.

    Unprompted if you want another example, so too should Australia.
    No, Barty, I only failed to specify the time shift because I never thought anyone would be silly enough to pretend to think it didn't need making. And you didn't read the post I was replying to which was expressly comparing China now to UK over past century. If we are argiuing about whether the UK or China eats more for lunch, how sensible is it to measure gross lunch consumption at 0400 GMT and declare China the winner?

    The UK's IR: world beating achievement, the crowning glory of the slave and empire revolutions underpinning it. China's IR: greedy opportunists presuming to lift themselves out of poverty.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    The War In Ukraine...well it's in Europe and Putin's disruption bots were heavily involved in the Brexit misinformation campaign....

    I think there is a strong argument to suggest that Brexit emboldened Putin.....

    Brexit though is fucking horrendous from whichever angle you view it...Project Fear didn't come close to depicting the full shitshow...

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,987
    edited August 18
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    AGW being due to China and us doing our bit isn't scepticism, it's science.

    As much as Flagellants want to take us back to the pre enlightenment pre IR era.
    I'm not a Flagellant I can assure you. In fact I'm poor on this issue. It's only quite recently that I've truly appreciated the extent of the problem.
    I've always grasped the extent of the problem and have been in favour of clean technologies for decades.

    Part of the problem is people who are not in favour of clean technologies and want to trash 'capitalism' or other things under the name of climate change. They discredit the entire climate issue which is a shame as its a very serious issue - but one that the UK is a genuine world leader in taking seriously. Hence why we're at 0.03 tonnes of coal per capita while China is at 3 tonnes of coal per capita.
    Ok very good. But be wary of a "markets will fix it" absolutist mentality. You are prone to this on occasion if we're being totally honest (as we should try to be).
    Markets will fix it given the right incentive.

    Hence why I have always been OK with carbon taxes. It is acceptable in my eyes to tax externalities and if we are going to have taxes better on externalities we wish to discourage than positives like working that we should want to encourage.

    The mistake that has been made too long is taxing domestic emissions only which just sends a signal to export our emissions which makes the global problem worse not better since we import from countries using dirtier technologies.

    Hence my advocation for carbon tariffs that match the carbon inspired taxes we have domestically. As it stands our tax system incentives importing from nations using dirty carbon emitting fuels over domestic production. That is the market operating with the wrong incentives, thanks to politics, and the market will and has responded accordingly which isn't ideal in these circumstances!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,978

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    You don't understand.

    The EU was blamed for everything sub optimal and now the wheel has turned. It's your tiger, ride it.
    Just as the EU was used as an excuse to avoid sorting out our own problems, so will Brexit be used similarly.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,555

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    Greenpeace has a lot to answer for on Nuclear.
    Still flabbergasting that we didn't break ground on anything nuclear between 1988 and 2018.
    Nuclear is catastrophic is it goes wrong (there have been more than a handful of real life examples of course) - On the other hand why in god name was fracking stopped ?
    Every generation source has its risks and issues. On balance nuclear is a clean, middling price fairly reliable generation source though
    Middling price?

    Citation required. No nuclear power plant has been built anywhere on the planet without massive state subsidy.
    The Overton Window on what is expensive in energy terms has shifted substantially over the last year. Current gas prices make nuclear prices look a lot more reasonable.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,235
    edited August 18
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    This one?
    image

    Well, certainly prominent, but you're younger and blacker and more female than I thought you were. Just goes to show you can't pigeonhole a PB poster.

    Utter clowns.

    We need new oil and gas for the foreseeable future whatever these idiots say.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,774
    edited August 18

    Shitty Britain.

    Always happened in heavy rain events, EU directive or not.

    Why so much run off is directed into the foul water drain is another question...
    In the current circumstances it is because the drought means the land doesn't absorb the rain as well as it should do normally so it runs off into drainage instead. If we weren't in a drought the land would better be able to absorb the water, which is a bit of a Catch 22.

    We were discussing this yesterday before it even started raining.
    That's not quite what I was referring to - obviously you get more run off in hard ground conditions.

    There's a problem with eg household guttering being directed into the sewer instead of surface water drainage. That water doesn't need to go anywhere near the foul water drain and it is often this run off that causes the problems at the treatment works when there is just too much volume to treat.

    In theory you can get fined for doing this but it happens all too often.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,367
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    You don't understand.

    The EU was blamed for everything sub optimal and now the wheel has turned. It's your tiger, ride it.
    Just as the EU was used as an excuse to avoid sorting out our own problems, so will Brexit be used similarly.
    That suggests a national characteistic rather than one belonging to one or other political side.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,555
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    The War In Ukraine...well it's in Europe and Putin's disruption bots were heavily involved in the Brexit misinformation campaign....

    I think there is a strong argument to suggest that Brexit emboldened Putin.....

    Brexit though is fucking horrendous from whichever angle you view it...Project Fear didn't come close to depicting the full shitshow...

    Brexit is saving me hundreds of pounds on my moving expenses to Ireland. It's not all bad.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921
    edited August 18
    Ferrier pleads guilty:

    MP Margaret Ferrier pleads guilty to exposing public to Covid
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62589375

    Reading the report, her actions were just extraordinarily. Like Dominic Cummings on acid.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,235
    The brothers on the brink of co-ordinated strikes.

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana pictured here with Jeremy Corbyn and Mick Lynch.

    She seems to be putting herself about and establishing herself as the voice of the left in labour.

    As Ed Vaizey said today, at least she's talking about the issues people care about.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/unions-on-brink-of-synchronised-strikes-says-rmt-s-mick-lynch/ar-AA10MX1J?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=d3de7aae58684fa8a2df0d1c357c3b64
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,591
    edited August 18

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    Probably unfair. There is a plausible view that AGW may well but may not be fully established, but the precautionary principle applies and that this being the case the UK is doing reasonably well compared with China and the USA.

    I don't know anyone who says that we should do nothing but China should do lots because different rules apply.

    But yet John Kerry thinks its OK to fly over here and tell us not to open a new coal mine.
    Another perfectly plausible view is to be neutral on the matter (while exercising the precautionary principle) until the elites who have the access to the best possible sources of information live lives and implement policies which show that they really and truly from the heart believe their own rhetoric.

    Why? The rhetoric is that this is an existential matter for the planet. The well informed elites have families, children and grand children like the rest of us. This is as true of the Chinese, USA and Indian elites as any other.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    Greenpeace has a lot to answer for on Nuclear.
    Still flabbergasting that we didn't break ground on anything nuclear between 1988 and 2018.
    Nuclear is catastrophic is it goes wrong (there have been more than a handful of real life examples of course) - On the other hand why in god name was fracking stopped ?
    Every generation source has its risks and issues. On balance nuclear is a clean, middling price fairly reliable generation source though
    Middling price?

    Citation required. No nuclear power plant has been built anywhere on the planet without massive state subsidy.
    The Overton Window on what is expensive in energy terms has shifted substantially over the last year. Current gas prices make nuclear prices look a lot more reasonable.
    And what has that shift done to the relevant merits of tidal? Do tell...

    I note you still ignore the point nuclear requires massive public subsidy.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241
    edited August 18
    Taz said:

    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    This one?
    image

    Well, certainly prominent, but you're younger and blacker and more female than I thought you were. Just goes to show you can't pigeonhole a PB poster.

    Utter clowns.

    We need new oil and gas for the foreseeable future whatever these idiots say.
    Yes, a poor batting display indeed.

    Ah! I see your edit now.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,627
    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    And to put THAT into perspective would you like to give us the figures again, per capita? Because raw they are just meaningless, unless outnumbering upstanding true born Brits is a crime in itself.
    Does the environment care how many people are in a country? or does it just care how much carbon in the atmosphere there is?
    I still can't believe we've made ourselves almost 100% dependent on gas as a nation during the transition from all types of fossil to renewables. We should have kept our fossil options open whilst building renewables more quickly. Ultimately the climate emissions from that approach would probably have been a wash long term with the current

    Approach
    Fossil -> Gas -> Renewables
    Approach to value resiliency
    Fossil -> Fossil & Gas & Nuclear & More renewables -> Renewables & Nuclear.
    That's fossil fuel lobbying for you, which pushed the idea of gas as a "bridge" fuel between coal and renewables. Greens, of course, were widely derided for opposing it at the time.
    Not really. We had already killed the coal industry and oil is way too valuable to burn in power stations. Gas was really the only hydrocarbon bridge available.
    When I studied this at uni the surprising conclusion was that most countries had rushed renewables too quickly, exhausting supply of wind turbines etc, and ended up relying on coal for far too long to bridge the gap. The UK has done ok on this compared with say Denmark, or Germany (vague recollection, do not take as 100% the truth).

    Coal is just so bad for emissions you should do everything possible to keep off it.
    You can capture the carbon now.

    I think for a country that is so blessed in natural resources to be in the position that we appear to be facing, a serious change in direction is needed. 'National self respect' is a very poor second to being able to heat ones home.
    True. We really should have taken advantage of those natural resources by cracking on with wind and tidal power, to a greater extent than we have done.
    I have no issue with tidal, or wind (though I have a strong preference for offshore). Yes, we should be a lot less gas dependent than we appear to be - or at the very least be dependent on our own gas.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,555
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not just Zoe Williams in the Guardian today - I am too!

    The big pic of the climate activists protest at Lords has me rather prominent. There I am quite close to the banner, looking not too shabby at all, all things considered.

    Prize for anybody who can spot me.

    And while you were having fun China dug another 10m tonnes of coal:

    China's coal output increased 7.2 percent year-on-year to an all-time high of 384.67 million tonnes in December 2021. For the full year of 2021, output touched 4.07 billion tonnes, up 4.7 percent on the previous year.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/china/coal-production#:~:text=Coal Production in China averaged,for China Raw Coal Production.

    To put that into perspective China's coal output during the last four years is greater than the UK's during the last hundred.
    Well I wasn't actually part of the demo. But what's your point with this? I know China is producing more pollution than the UK. China produces more of most things than the UK - whopping big nation of over 1b people trying to catch up with western living standards that it is.
    The point is that the UK is an irrelevance when it comes to climate change.

    The decisive factor has been and will continue to be what China does.

    So any climate activists should be protesting outside the Chinese embassy not at a cricket ground.
    "AGW is a load of hysterical nonsense. We don't need to do anything. These activists should desist and refrain."

    "AGW is down to China not us. We're doing our bit. These activists should protest outside the Chinese Embassy".

    Thus does the "thinking" of the climate "skeptics" evolve.
    Probably unfair. There is a plausible view that AGW may well but may not be fully established, but the precautionary principle applies and that this being the case the UK is doing reasonably well compared with China and the USA.

    I don't know anyone who says that we should do nothing but China should do lots because different rules apply.

    But yet John Kerry thinks its OK to fly over here and tell us not to open a new coal mine.
    Another perfectly plausible view is to be neutral on the matter (while exercising the precautionary principle) until the elites who have the access to the best possible sources of information live lives and implement policies which show that they really and truly from the heart believe their own rhetoric.

    Why? The rhetoric is that this is an existential matter for the planet. The well informed elites have families, children and grand children like the rest of us. This is as true of the Chinese, USA and Indian elites as any other.

    The elites can more easily pay their way out of trouble. Their personal incentives are not aligned with the majority of the population.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,696

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    You don't understand.

    The EU was blamed for everything sub optimal and now the wheel has turned. It's your tiger, ride it.
    Just as the EU was used as an excuse to avoid sorting out our own problems, so will Brexit be used similarly.
    That suggests a national characteistic rather than one belonging to one or other political side.
    The British (or perhaps English) pathology is to insist everything is “world-leading” while simultaneously regretting that things aren’t as good as they were in 1950 (or 1850) and that (x) is to blame.

    X is usually some variation of foreigners and the idle working class.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241
    ydoethur said:

    Ferrier pleads guilty:

    MP Margaret Ferrier pleads guilty to exposing public to Covid
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62589375

    Reading the report, her actions were just extraordinarily. Like Dominic Cummings on acid.

    All the more egregious, given her vocal attack on DC.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 785
    edited August 18
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Shitty Britain.

    FFS - yesterday was as a result of the heavy storms causing overflows, as has happened for a very long time. It doesn't help make arguments to be so disingenuous.
    Why allow facts to get in the way of a good rant though?
    Not only heavy storms but heavy storms landing on bone dry and rock hard surfaces with very rapid run off as a result. Totally unsurprising and, as usual, Brexit is completely and utterly irrelevant to what happened.
    You don't understand.

    Brexit is to blame for current weather conditions, Covid, and the war in Ukraine.
    The War In Ukraine...well it's in Europe and Putin's disruption bots were heavily involved in the Brexit misinformation campaign....

    I think there is a strong argument to suggest that Brexit emboldened Putin.....

    Brexit though is fucking horrendous from whichever angle you view it...Project Fear didn't come close to depicting the full shitshow...

    I hate the "Brexit emboldened Putin" argument. It's insulting to democratic values as it implies that choices shouldn't be allowed to be made by the public in case a despot has an interest in the decision.

    No matter what you think of the decision, you shouldn't be arguing against the democratic right of a country to choose which organisations it is or is not a part of. That applies to the UK, and of course Ukraine which should have the right to apply to join the EU and NATO if it so desires.
This discussion has been closed.