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Truss continues to be a 65% chance in the next PM betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    You need investment to create the conditions where it is possible to deal with those inefficiencies and thereby unlock that hidden potential.
    So 'give us more money and everything will get better' ?

    Which the NHS has been saying since 1948.

    You're more likely to lock in those inefficiencies than unlock hidden potential by providing more 'investment'.
    Alas, it’s the second law of thermodynamics. You don’t get something for nothing,
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    We should add SKS to the "Portrayed by" list
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artful_Dodger
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,601
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-62267282

    "The large number of unfilled NHS job vacancies is posing a serious risk to patient safety, a report by MPs says.

    It found England is now short of 12,000 hospital doctors and more than 50,000 nurses and midwives, calling this the worst workforce crisis in NHS history."

    I expect the biggest real terms pay cut in decades will sort that out.



    The problem is that the NHS has to run to stand still, and that challenge gets worse every year - more people live for longer with more chronic conditions all of whom require more people treating them for longer with more new (and expensive) drugs coming on the market all the time that make more things treatable too. And so on.

    Of course, all those staff want real-terms salary increases each year too (who doesn't?) and so the NHS needs to consume an ever greater proportion of national income each and every year - it probably needs a budget increase of 9-10% every year just to stop it getting worse - just to deliver its decidedly average service.

    This isn't sustainable. I don't see any party with answers.
    The only answer is to stop treating a healthcare system as a national religion, and encourage everyone in work to have private insurance.

    Also a massive increase in university places in medical fields, to back up overseas recruitment.
    Due to the COVID A level comedy, in a year or 2 many universities will be graduating 25 or 30% more medical undergraduates.

    The problem is that turning undergrads into doctors requires years of further training - which is expensive and requires skilled medics to do the teaching. So expansion of that is hard and slow.

    The reliance on overseas doctors and nurses is a cheapskate cost measure - because we get them fully trained.

    It it certain that the excess of undergrads will result in a lot of people not going into medicine - no training places for them.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Problem for Sunak is that he wants to be honest about the economy which boils down to the public as, you had 12 years to sort it out, why didn't you.

    They're on losing ground on the economy, which I think Truss has accepted hence why she's trying to move away from 12 years of failure

    The failure of having full employment?
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    I genuinely believe Brexit can be a success in some sense.

    But clearly only Labour can deliver that now, being the alternative option

    Judas!
  • Starmer will dismiss the Tory leadership contest as “Thatcherite cosplay”. He will say:
    You will see a clear contrast between my Labour party and the Thatcherite cosplay on display tonight [in the Tory leadership debate]. The difference between a Labour party ready to take Britain forward. And a Tory party that wants to take us back into the past.

    Between Labour growth and Tory stagnation. That will be the choice at the next election and we are ready.
    And he will say that promoting growth is now as important for Labour as redistribution. He will say:
    The approach to growth I have set out today will challenge my party’s instincts.

    It pushes us to care as much about growth and productivity, as we have done about redistribution and investment in the past. Not to hark back to our old ideas in the face of new challenges.

    Blairism is back my friends
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    What’s important to Nad:

    .⁦@trussliz⁩ will be travelling the country wearing her earrings which cost circa £4.50 from Claire Accessories. Meanwhile…

    Rishi visits Teeside in Prada shoes worth £450 and sported £3,500 bespoke suit as he prepared for crunch leadership vote.


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1551459390502440960

    So Truss spent six times the price of a pint of milk on crap jewellery?

    That. Is. A. Disgrace.
    £4.50 is more than a prawn sandwich from Pret...
    So, members of the conservative party are slagging off other members because they are wealthy? Have I got this right? This is the Conservative party right?

    We are no longer in Kansas, Toto.

    I'm not usually a fan of Guardian opinion pieces, but I think this one has it right about the two candidates' "absurd class cosplay".

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/rishi-sunak-liz-truss-britain-class-tory-leadership

    So much is obvious. Less obvious is why and how they think it works for them. And, if it does, why?

    Similar things happen on the left of course. In a sense it is more recent on the centre right. AD-H and Macmillan seemed to feel no need to dumb down.

    Liz Truss is contrasting her background with her posh opponents' (plural, to include Boris, Jeremy Hunt and others besides Rishi) but now mainly Rishi, the out-of-touch squillionaire.

    Rishi Sunak is leaning into a sort of Anglo-Indian multi-generational version of the American dream, while drawing vague parallels to Mrs Thatcher. His grandmother had nothing; his parents were middle-class professionals and he might be prime minister; he helped his mum by doing the accounts for her shop (pharmacy).

    But Boris did not downplay his posh background and nor did David Cameron, although the latter did sometimes seem embarrassed. As I've said before, I doubt most voters care very much.
    Politicians being ‘posh’ isn’t much of a problem.

    Politicians being so rich that they have no concept of how normal people live, can be very problematic if it’s not addressed.

    Richi Rich Sunak clearly doesn’t know how to put petrol in a car - because that’s the family driver’s job - and doesn’t care if it’s £1 or £10 a litre. That’s the big problem. He doesn’t understand that people can’t afford to fill their tank to get to work, and that millions of people are going to be totally stuffed by heating bills this winter.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    You need investment to create the conditions where it is possible to deal with those inefficiencies and thereby unlock that hidden potential.
    So 'give us more money and everything will get better' ?

    Which the NHS has been saying since 1948.

    You're more likely to lock in those inefficiencies than unlock hidden potential by providing more 'investment'.
    Alas, it’s the second law of thermodynamics. You don’t get something for nothing,
    You can improve your Coefficient of Performance, though.
  • Roger said:

    I genuinely believe Brexit can be a success in some sense.

    But clearly only Labour can deliver that now, being the alternative option

    Judas!
    We need to make a success of it.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:


    “China is the biggest long-term threat to Britain, Rishi Sunak will say on Monday as he unveils plans to curb the country’s soft power by closing all of its 30 Confucius Institutes, which promote the teaching of Chinese language and culture, in the UK.”

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1551449611839176706

    China really isnt the biggest long term threat and quite a paranoid and insular thing to do
    China is the biggest threat the US faces. Russia is the biggest threat Europe faces. That will become a much, much bigger problem for us if (when?) the Republicans win the presidency in 2024.

    No, China is the biggest threat the entire world faces. The world is interconnected, markets are global, the notion you can worry about your corner of it is naivety in the extreme.

    If China invades Taiwan, which supplies the chips that run the global economy, we would be plunged into a depression that could dwarf COVID and the GFC and Ukraine combined.
    China are without a doubt the 21st centuries greatest threat.
    That is another reason to aid Ukraine to defeat Russia. If China see Russia defeated that may aid deterrence for avoiding them invading Taiwan.
    There’s plenty in that, though I think the Chinese are a lot more interested than the Russians in economic control rather than political control. Beyond Taiwan, that’s what motivates them. The issue for us is that it is likely the next Republican US president will not worry too much about Putin and so will give much less priority to thwarting him than Biden has. If Europe is not able to fill the gaps this creates, the Russian threat becomes ever greater and much more immediate than the Chinese one.

    We should worry less about Chinese and Russian
    strength and more about our weakness. We might be able to do something about the latter if we focused on that.
    Our key weakness is that we have traded strategic resilience to save pennies. Globalisation has made the western economic system very fragile indeed, as we are now seeing. And in many cases, we have outsourced key components of our economic system to a country which defines itself as our adversary, whether we wish to acknowledge that or not.

    The legacy of Blair looms large. Labour historically was a proud party of national security, strategic interest and patriotism but no more. Corbyn very nearly finished the job! In turn the Tories have become increasingly complacent on national security and adopted a purely managerial approach to foreign affairs, with foreign autocrats first and foremost a backdoor source of party funding and off balance sheet government borrowing. I struggle quite a lot with certain prominent posters continued adoration for George Osborne given his relationships with the oligarchs and abject nativity in pursuing the Chinese to help run our nuclear industry.

    I desperately hope Tugendhat gets a big job in
    Cabinet so he can make the case for strategic
    resilience from inside government.



    Is it really Tony Blair's fault that Conservative
    governments both before and since have
    decimated Britain's armed forces while taking
    money from oligarchs and hostile powers?
    I’m not sure you read my whole comment I’d you think I am absolving Conservative governments from blame. This has been an unwitting bipartisan effort to weaken our security for decades.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    Jonathan said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    You need investment to create the conditions where it is possible to deal with those inefficiencies and thereby unlock that hidden potential.
    So 'give us more money and everything will get better' ?

    Which the NHS has been saying since 1948.

    You're more likely to lock in those inefficiencies than unlock hidden potential by providing more 'investment'.
    As I said, we need to be smarter on what we spend the money on. Protect funds for front line healthcare and have a bonfire of the internal market and the mountain of management.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited July 2022

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
  • So Liz isn't rich then?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Problem for Sunak is that he wants to be honest about the economy which boils down to the public as, you had 12 years to sort it out, why didn't you.

    They're on losing ground on the economy, which I think Truss has accepted hence why she's trying to move away from 12 years of failure

    The failure of having full employment?
    Well Nerys. All is not as it seems. We haven't got the right people for the right vacancies.

    A customer of mine in the waste industry, previously reliant on Eastern European Labour is now legitimately bringing workers over from the Indian subcontinent. It appears to be working well.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    It doesn't need more spending, it needs less spending on cakes. Why on earth does eating less and briskly walking more require spending?

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    Staffing - training, recruitment and retention - is the major problem facing the NHS, which has nothing to do with the funding model. Obviously there are other problems but you would want to tackle the biggest problem first. Talk about funding models, although interesting, is displacement activity frankly.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    So Liz isn't rich then?

    There's rich and Rish.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Probably, and it's why I'm entirely ignoring what Truss and Sunak are saying now. I'll judge the winner by what they actually do as PM.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    What makes Truss potentially so dangerous is that, unlike Johnson, she:
    1. Actually believes what she says
    2. Is not bone idle
    Put those two together and the damage she could do is pretty sizeable.

    You say damage, I say progress.

    Worth a roll of the dice.
    All I know for certain is that if it goes wrong Truss’s supporters will blame everyone but her (and themselves).

    All I know for certain is the unhinged Tory/Brexit haters will stay unhinged Tory/Brexit haters regardless of who the new PM is and what they do or don't do.
    I don’t think there’s anything unhinged in disliking the mess this government has caused. We’ll just have to disagree on that.

    The unhinged rarely realise that they are.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,262

    Problem for Sunak is that he wants to be honest about the economy which boils down to the public as, you had 12 years to sort it out, why didn't you.

    They're on losing ground on the economy, which I think Truss has accepted hence why she's trying to move away from 12 years of failure

    The failure of having full employment?
    Does anybody on here think the economy is in good shape?

    No, I thought not. After 12 years of Tory misrule it's in a terrible state.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,334

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 775
    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    I listened to Keir on The Rest is Politics, which was a pretty good interview. He essentially said his focus would be on growing the economy, because he has rightly identified that being able to do so will help people in all kinds of different ways (bit light in the how, but I don't blame him this far from a campaign).

    I think the danger is that, unless he can spin a convincing and simple story about how that economic growth is going to help the pound in our collective pockets, the Tories could say they're going to focus on people and jobs (the same thing, but sounds more relatable). David Cameron had a few good lines on this, but I'm not actually sure they cut through all that much.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    Don't write it off just yet. You are right that a preference for growth might be just motherhood and apple pie but on the other hand, it might be a rejection of the argument that we should cut spending or increase tax. It might be significant; it might not.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Nad joins the club of people who can't spell Teesside.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    What makes Truss potentially so dangerous is that, unlike Johnson, she:
    1. Actually believes what she says
    2. Is not bone idle
    Put those two together and the damage she could do is pretty sizeable.

    You say damage, I say progress.

    Worth a roll of the dice.
    All I know for certain is that if it goes wrong Truss’s supporters will blame everyone but her (and themselves).

    All I know for certain is the unhinged Tory/Brexit haters will stay unhinged Tory/Brexit haters regardless of who the new PM is and what they do or don't do.
    I always parse your name as "Driver, but only on the LHS of the road, none of this continental nonsense." It is stupid, lazy and bad mannered to call your opponents in an argument unhinged haters.
    Not all Labour supporters are unhinged haters. But some are, and they can't be "opponents in an argument" because there's no arguing with them.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    This is, of course, precisely why the EdStone was so risible.
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    You may want to re read what I said. What I said was he as a lawmaker was a hypocrite who enjoyed legal gatherings as it was legalised for him, but he was calling it reckless to be legalised for the rest of us.

    That's not about law breaking it's about two faced hypocrisy. Him gathering for beer and korma is legal as he's special, but CHB and I doing so is reckless and illegal.

    That may be the law but the law was an ass and he wanted lockdown extended while gathering in legal beer and korma gatherings others had no legal right to enjoy.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    You need investment to create the conditions where it is possible to deal with those inefficiencies and thereby unlock that hidden potential.
    So 'give us more money and everything will get better' ?

    Which the NHS has been saying since 1948.

    You're more likely to lock in those inefficiencies than unlock hidden potential by providing more 'investment'.
    Alas, it’s the second law of thermodynamics. You don’t get something for nothing,
    You don’t get something for nothing

    You're more likely to get nothing for something.

    Followed by calls for yet more 'investment'.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Can someone tell me if in the UK a company can offset paying for private medical insurance for employees against tax?

    So for example if HSBC paid for all their employees to have private medical cover they could write-off that amount from profits?

    And the employee wouldn’t have to pay tax on a benefit in kind.

    If that’s not the case has any think-tank examined if it would relieve the pressure on NHS resources etc in an efficient way or would it achieve nothing and simply reduce treasury tax take?
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    This is, of course, precisely why the EdStone was so risible.
    Was that not the funniest political stunt of this century so far? In my lifetime, I can only think of Kinnock on the beach to rival it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,701

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    Let's contrast.

    Boris Johnson: lock down and then smuggles in booze and cake

    Keir Starmer: has campaigning event and Durham Police investigate him twice, find he breaks no rules.

    Man of cowardice vs man of integrity. I know you are desperate to make them look the same but nobody is buying it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    This is, of course, precisely why the EdStone was so risible.
    Was that not the funniest political stunt of this century so far? In my lifetime, I can only think of Kinnock on the beach to rival it.
    The really bad Elvis impersonator surely that Team Gordo hired.....not only was the guy like a drunk bad at a wedding, but this was a relaunch for mr i am a super serious political heavyweight unlike Cameron / Clegg who are lightweight PR merchants.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    edited July 2022
    boulay said:

    Can someone tell me if in the UK a company can offset paying for private medical insurance for employees against tax?

    So for example if HSBC paid for all their employees to have private medical cover they could write-off that amount from profits?

    And the employee wouldn’t have to pay tax on a benefit in kind.

    If that’s not the case has any think-tank examined if it would relieve the pressure on NHS resources etc in an efficient way or would it achieve nothing and simply reduce treasury tax take?

    No, you can't write it off against tax.
    Employees pay tax on any work provided private healthcare.
    Employer pays NI.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    edited July 2022

    I genuinely believe Brexit can be a success in some sense.

    But clearly only Labour can deliver that now, being the alternative option

    Labour's Brexit policy is sensible: marginal but likely important mitigation of some of the worst damage. My issue is with Starmer's rhetoric. That's not "success" and it insults people's intelligence to pretend it is.

    I would prefer him to say, "Yes we are out of the EU, but we can do things differently. My government will always aim for good relations with the EU and our neighbours where we can"

    He won't win over the most committed Brexiteers but they aren't going to vote for him anyway. You don't want to triangulate everything.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
  • Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    This is, of course, precisely why the EdStone was so risible.
    Was that not the funniest political stunt of this century so far? In my lifetime, I can only think of Kinnock on the beach to rival it.
    And it gave us this

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    What’s important to Nad:

    .⁦@trussliz⁩ will be travelling the country wearing her earrings which cost circa £4.50 from Claire Accessories. Meanwhile…

    Rishi visits Teeside in Prada shoes worth £450 and sported £3,500 bespoke suit as he prepared for crunch leadership vote.


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1551459390502440960

    So Truss spent six times the price of a pint of milk on crap jewellery?

    That. Is. A. Disgrace.
    £4.50 is more than a prawn sandwich from Pret...
    So, members of the conservative party are slagging off other members because they are wealthy? Have I got this right? This is the Conservative party right?

    We are no longer in Kansas, Toto.

    I'm not usually a fan of Guardian opinion pieces, but I think this one has it right about the two candidates' "absurd class cosplay".

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/rishi-sunak-liz-truss-britain-class-tory-leadership

    So much is obvious. Less obvious is why and how they think it works for them. And, if it does, why?

    Similar things happen on the left of course. In a sense it is more recent on the centre right. AD-H and Macmillan seemed to feel no need to dumb down.

    Liz Truss is contrasting her background with her posh opponents' (plural, to include Boris, Jeremy Hunt and others besides Rishi) but now mainly Rishi, the out-of-touch squillionaire.

    Rishi Sunak is leaning into a sort of Anglo-Indian multi-generational version of the American dream, while drawing vague parallels to Mrs Thatcher. His grandmother had nothing; his parents were middle-class professionals and he might be prime minister; he helped his mum by doing the accounts for her shop (pharmacy).

    But Boris did not downplay his posh background and nor did David Cameron, although the latter did sometimes seem embarrassed. As I've said before, I doubt most voters care very much.
    Politicians being ‘posh’ isn’t much of a problem.

    Politicians being so rich that they have no concept of how normal people live, can be very problematic if it’s not addressed.

    Richi Rich Sunak clearly doesn’t know how to put petrol in a car - because that’s the family driver’s job - and doesn’t care if it’s £1 or £10 a litre. That’s the big problem. He doesn’t understand that people can’t afford to fill their tank to get to work, and that millions of people are going to be totally stuffed by heating bills this winter.
    Yes, that's the attack line from the Truss camp and no doubt from Labour in due course, but at least two Cabinet members are worth north of £100 million and no-one cares. Boris himself is an Etonian millionaire who owns four homes. No-one cares, even if they should.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,758
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The crisis is that the Home Office is grabbing the headlines with its fantasy plans, fighting with Bishops and lawyers, but has no stamina or grip or energy for doing the job. Applications were pretty flat (though now rising) but decisions collapsed before Covid then stopped. https://t.co/C78L4vVkS2

    This is a pretty damning graph of the incompetence of the Home Office under May and Patel:


    That is an incredible graph. No wonder they are so desperate to distract with their vile Rwanda bullshit. Cruel and incompetent.
    Performative cruelty is no substitute for competent performance.

    Yet the debate tonight will be about tax cuts and the Rwanda scheme. It is cloud cuckoo land.
    It is a shockingly poor performance from yet another part of the public sector. The one thing that can be said in their favour is that there has been a marked change in the way that applications are processed. 10 years ago applications were routinely bounced or rejected leading to an ever more clogged appeals process. More recently there has been a steady increase in the number of application which are approved. I believe that it is currently at something approaching 2/3. The result is that there is far fewer appeals which is a much better use of resources. Colleagues of mine who were previously pretty much full time immigration judges have had to find other things to do because they no longer get enough days.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,865

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    Hidden part privatisation causing additional unnecessary costs.
  • It's odd, I am sure Philip had a go about not libelling people.

    And yet here he is libelling Durham Police, calling the result politically motivated.

    Desperate stuff from a party out of ideas and out of time. Time for Labour.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007
    algarkirk said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    It doesn't need more spending, it needs less spending on cakes. Why on earth does eating less and briskly walking more require spending?

    Because people are not eating less or walking more.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    It was 'Labour will prioritise growth'.
    It's quite possible to imagine their prioritising other things.

    It was hardly earth shaking, but possibly more consequential than you think.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Roger said:

    I genuinely believe Brexit can be a success in some sense.

    But clearly only Labour can deliver that now, being the alternative option

    Judas!
    Is that a Dylan reference ?

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    Yes - I'd even support the opposite. "Growth would be good, but it's difficult in the current global climate, so our first priority is redistributing the wealth that we already have, by using a modest wealth tax to help people struggling to get by at all.". I don't think it would win any elections, but it'd get my vote. He's explicitly rejecting that train of thought, which is disappointing for me but probably most people will welcome.
  • Just off topic posts you don't agree with, okay then
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853

    algarkirk said:

    We spend ever increasing sums on the NHS, and yet simultaneously end up with front line service provision being starved of funds and in some places for some care largely unavailable.

    So it isn't how much money we are spending, its how we are spending it. Yes the population is getting older and that costs more. But we don't spend money on preventative medicine - the national obesity crisis being a prime example of how spending now could save far more in the future.

    It's also desperately inefficient. The myriad providers all stacked on top of each other, all with separate management systems and contracts and people who are a cost to make the machine work as opposed to a cost of healthcare. There has to be a way to take an axe to much of this - having GPs running themselves as a CCG buying in healthcare contracts being one example of how to waste money.

    It doesn't need more spending, it needs less spending on cakes. Why on earth does eating less and briskly walking more require spending?

    Because people are not eating less or walking more.
    I blame daytime TV (yes, yes, I know that's irrelevant in the Netflix age).
  • I know how desperate people were for KS to be found guilty. But as I said many, many times that was never going to happen - and you now need to get over it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    It's odd, I am sure Philip had a go about not libelling people.

    And yet here he is libelling Durham Police, calling the result politically motivated.

    Desperate stuff from a party out of ideas and out of time. Time for Labour.

    Don't be silly - he is not libelling anyone. Saying "I think x police is corrupt" is par for the course. He is wrong, but it isn't libel. Just point and laugh at the spectacle rather than get personally het up.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited July 2022

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    No I said Keir was cleared because what he did was legal, but others doing the same thing was not legal because Keir and other lawmakers were saying legalising it for us was "reckless" - but it was legalised for themselves and they were doing it themselves while denying us our basic liberties.

    I didn't gather inside with others in April 2021. I didn't have beer and korma inside with others in April 2021. I would have loved to, but it was illegal for me, and it was illegal because Keir and other politicians voted for it to be illegal for me and he was leading campaigns to keep it illegal for us, saying legalising it was reckless.

    But it was legal for them. It wasn't too reckless for him to do it, just for us to do it.

    I wanted lockdown lifted, it was screwing with my mental health, but I was kept in lockdown while he was having beer and korma with his colleagues inside while voting for us to stay lockdown and leading calls in Parliament that liftin it for us would be reckless. Legal for him, reckless for us.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    Just off topic posts you don't agree with, okay then

    If we properly used the off topic flag something like 90% of all posts on here are off-topic...
  • It's odd, I am sure Philip had a go about not libelling people.

    And yet here he is libelling Durham Police, calling the result politically motivated.

    Desperate stuff from a party out of ideas and out of time. Time for Labour.

    Don't be silly - he is not libelling anyone. Saying "I think x police is corrupt" is par for the course. He is wrong, but it isn't libel. Just point and laugh at the spectacle rather than get personally het up.
    How are you Rochdale?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    edited July 2022

    It's odd, I am sure Philip had a go about not libelling people.

    And yet here he is libelling Durham Police, calling the result politically motivated.

    Desperate stuff from a party out of ideas and out of time. Time for Labour.

    Who is "Philip"?

    And where are Labour's ideas?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    The German health funding system is full of problems. Most of it is anyway effectively from taxation same as the UK. And last time I checked the public funding was higher than the UK public funding per capita (though it's actually not easy to make sure you're comparing like with like).

    Sure, it might look attractive if you are a high earner because you can opt out of contributing to the public funding, but to my way of thinking that is just unfair.

    The organisation is very different, as you can choose to see specialists of your choice, rather than needing a referral from your GP, but this has pros and cons, and is a somewhat separate issue to the funding model.

    Some things (by no means everything) are better in Germany, but more is spent. And spending doesn't seem to be more efficient than in the UK, from what I've seen, and from international surveys I've glanced at.

    My guess it's much better to improve the specific things that need improving in the NHS, rather than spending loads of time and money on changing the entire system for ideological reasons (and have a high chance of ending up with something less efficient anyway). Some of the hatred of the NHS seems quite irrational.
  • Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    No I said Keir was cleared because what he did was legal, but others doing the same thing was not legal because Keir and other lawmakers were saying legalising it for us was "reckless" - but it was legalised for themselves and they were doing it themselves while denying us our basic liberties.

    I didn't gather inside with others in April 2021. I didn't have beer and korma inside with others in April 2021. I would have loved to, but it was illegal for me, and it was illegal because Keir and other politicians voted for it to be illegal for me and he was leading campaigns to keep it illegal for us, saying legalising it was reckless.

    But it was legal for them. It wasn't too reckless for him to do it, just for us to do it.
    We're back to you being the plastic cow in the Father Ted meme again.

    "Others" - being Boris - were not doing the same thing at the same time under the same legal regulations.

    As you know.

    Yet you still lie to yourself, getting angrier and angrier and angrier. Chill! We don't care!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    It's odd, I am sure Philip had a go about not libelling people.

    And yet here he is libelling Durham Police, calling the result politically motivated.

    Desperate stuff from a party out of ideas and out of time. Time for Labour.

    Don't be silly - he is not libelling anyone. Saying "I think x police is corrupt" is par for the course. He is wrong, but it isn't libel. Just point and laugh at the spectacle rather than get personally het up.
    How are you Rochdale?
    Giggling at this morning's cabaret turn
  • I will apologise, I did not intend to accidentally dox anyone it was clearly a mis-type. My apologies to the user in question
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,841
    edited July 2022
    Unpopular said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    I listened to Keir on The Rest is Politics, which was a pretty good interview. He essentially said his focus would be on growing the economy, because he has rightly identified that being able to do so will help people in all kinds of different ways (bit light in the how, but I don't blame him this far from a campaign).

    I think the danger is that, unless he can spin a convincing and simple story about how that economic growth is going to help the pound in our collective pockets, the Tories could say they're going to focus on people and jobs (the same thing, but sounds more relatable). David Cameron had a few good lines on this, but I'm not actually sure they cut through all that much.
    If you want my honest opinion I think the notion of governments "growing the economy" is horseshit. It gets said by competing political parties purely because they know it's win/win motherhood and apple pie that everyone nods along to. The sustainable growth rate of our economy is largely outside their control. What's far more in their control is how the proceeds of growth (income and wealth) is spread across the population.

    Hence Labour saying they're more interested in "size of pie" than how it's distributed is the opposite of what I want to hear. It's electioneering waffle imo. At the same time it's what I DO want to hear - because I really want a Labour government and I'm happy for SKS to pitch the messaging with this and only this in mind. My sense is he's smart on the politics of winning the next GE and is getting it right.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Foxy said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-62267282

    "The large number of unfilled NHS job vacancies is posing a serious risk to patient safety, a report by MPs says.

    It found England is now short of 12,000 hospital doctors and more than 50,000 nurses and midwives, calling this the worst workforce crisis in NHS history."

    I expect the biggest real terms pay cut in decades will sort that out.



    The problem is that the NHS has to run to stand still, and that challenge gets worse every year - more people live for longer with more chronic conditions all of whom require more people treating them for longer with more new (and expensive) drugs coming on the market all the time that make more things treatable too. And so on.

    Of course, all those staff want real-terms salary increases each year too (who doesn't?) and so the NHS needs to consume an ever greater proportion of national income each and every year - it probably needs a budget increase of 9-10% every year just to stop it getting worse - just to deliver its decidedly average service.

    This isn't sustainable. I don't see any party with answers.
    And of course at the same time as the NHS needs all that funding, so too does social care and pensions and assorted sweeties are demanded too.
    Yes - healthcare, social care and retirement provision is exactly the same as confectionery. I used to have an unhealthy 4pm sugar crash Mars Bar habit that I managed to give up. All we need to do is take a similar approach to cancer care and mental health provision!
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    edited July 2022

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    I was not trolling you, it was an honest mistake I made and happy to apologise about that.

    But please withdraw the allegation that I am a troll. I just don't agree with you Bart.
  • Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    No I said Keir was cleared because what he did was legal, but others doing the same thing was not legal because Keir and other lawmakers were saying legalising it for us was "reckless" - but it was legalised for themselves and they were doing it themselves while denying us our basic liberties.

    I didn't gather inside with others in April 2021. I didn't have beer and korma inside with others in April 2021. I would have loved to, but it was illegal for me, and it was illegal because Keir and other politicians voted for it to be illegal for me and he was leading campaigns to keep it illegal for us, saying legalising it was reckless.

    But it was legal for them. It wasn't too reckless for him to do it, just for us to do it.
    We're back to you being the plastic cow in the Father Ted meme again.

    "Others" - being Boris - were not doing the same thing at the same time under the same legal regulations.

    As you know.

    Yet you still lie to yourself, getting angrier and angrier and angrier. Chill! We don't care!
    At least Boris did remove lockdown restrictions in the face of opposition from Sir Keir several months after the event in question. Over a year too late, mind, but he still gets partial credit for doing it eventually.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    I was not trolling you, it was an honest mistake I made and happy to apologise about that.

    But please withdraw the allegation that I am a troll. I just don't agree with you Bart.
    Thank you for the apology. I will withdraw that comment too.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    I was not trolling you, it was an honest mistake I made and happy to apologise about that.

    But please withdraw the allegation that I am a troll. I just don't agree with you Bart.
    Thank you for the apology. I will withdraw that comment too.
    I do understand about wishing to keep your identity private - and I had hoped you would understand this was clearly a mistake having always been careful in prior cases. I am not here to dox you
  • Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
  • Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    If I had been campaigning in a political campaign I would have been able to have a meal socially distanced too.

    It is not the same as Johnson, where it was illegal to do anything and he partied any way.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    kamski said:

    The German health funding system is full of problems. Most of it is anyway effectively from taxation same as the UK. And last time I checked the public funding was higher than the UK public funding per capita (though it's actually not easy to make sure you're comparing like with like).

    Sure, it might look attractive if you are a high earner because you can opt out of contributing to the public funding, but to my way of thinking that is just unfair.

    The organisation is very different, as you can choose to see specialists of your choice, rather than needing a referral from your GP, but this has pros and cons, and is a somewhat separate issue to the funding model.

    Some things (by no means everything) are better in Germany, but more is spent. And spending doesn't seem to be more efficient than in the UK, from what I've seen, and from international surveys I've glanced at.

    My guess it's much better to improve the specific things that need improving in the NHS, rather than spending loads of time and money on changing the entire system for ideological reasons (and have a high chance of ending up with something less efficient anyway). Some of the hatred of the NHS seems quite irrational.

    From what I can tell the specialist route is similar to Germany in many other European countries. Certainly friends from Poland, Italy and France (and I think Netherlands) all refer to this as being a better system, than the GP referral in the UK and friends from Poland and Italy have, in the last year, travelled back to the Continent for direct appointments rather than waiting on UK GP referrals.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    If I had been campaigning in a political campaign I would have been able to have a meal socially distanced too.

    It is not the same as Johnson, where it was illegal to do anything and he partied any way.
    If you had been campaigning in a political campaign you would have been one of them!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,841

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    Don't write it off just yet. You are right that a preference for growth might be just motherhood and apple pie but on the other hand, it might be a rejection of the argument that we should cut spending or increase tax. It might be significant; it might not.
    Yep, I'm interested to see what policies emerge for Labour. On the specific point of tax/spend, I think you and I differ a little bit. You're less 'balance the books' than me.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    “dead-named”?!?!!! In this context? We all owe Leon a massive apology if that’s now a thing on a…erm…blog message board.
  • Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    I've read every one of @BartholomewRoberts posts about Starmer on this thread and I can't see a single one which impugns the cops at all. He calls all of Starmer's actions legal.

    You seem to be reacting to others' wild accusations instead of anything Bart has actually said
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62287310

    Labour government would prioritise growth - Starmer

    Has to be said, nice one Keir. But "Labour not fussed about growth" is unthinkable so it fails my test for being an interesting announcement.

    My test being - it must be possible to imagine the opposite being announced.
    Don't write it off just yet. You are right that a preference for growth might be just motherhood and apple pie but on the other hand, it might be a rejection of the argument that we should cut spending or increase tax. It might be significant; it might not.
    Yep, I'm interested to see what policies emerge for Labour. On the specific point of tax/spend, I think you and I differ a little bit. You're less 'balance the books' than me.
    Clearly Labour has to go big on economic competence as Blair did. It is the only way to win.

    I expect we will see something like the IFS looking at their plans and certifying them. I wouldn't be surprised if they make a big deal of cutting the deficit.
  • Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    If I had been campaigning in a political campaign I would have been able to have a meal socially distanced too.

    It is not the same as Johnson, where it was illegal to do anything and he partied any way.
    Well I wasn't campaigning for a political campaign so I was banned from having socially distanced meals. Keir was so he could. One law for him, one law for us - and he wanted to keep it that was as it would be "reckless" for you or I to have meals like that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007

    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    Was legal if you were campaigning. So you could have done!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,262

    Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    I was not trolling you, it was an honest mistake I made and happy to apologise about that.

    But please withdraw the allegation that I am a troll. I just don't agree with you Bart.
    What does it matter CHB? Let it go.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,007
    DougSeal said:

    Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    “dead-named”?!?!!! In this context? We all owe Leon a massive apology if that’s now a thing on a…erm…blog message board.
    You can still call Leon by his real name ("Xipe") - he doesn't mind.
  • Taz said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You should go tell the police that they have got it wrong. Starmer was not partying with beer and korma. Saying he was is like watching a trial, the guy is cleared of all charges and there you are outside the court saying "well I say he is guilty because I don't like him"
    Yeah. It is nonsense. Durham Police did the investigation and are in posession of the facts. SKS broke no law and we should accept the decision of the investigators. Durham Police Force are a good police force. They are not the met.
    I know how gutted Philip was when the result came in. But now it is the Police that are the problem because he didn't like the result.

    One man has received a FPN for smuggling in cake and booze. One man had a campaigning event and Durham Police cleared him not once but twice.
    @MikeSmithson @TSE @PBModerator the off topic police are back, is this going to be dealt with?
    I flagged posts that dead-named me in a way that's uncivil and against the rules.

    If you want to disagree with what I say, then disagree with it. Don't use my real life name to troll me.
    I was not trolling you, it was an honest mistake I made and happy to apologise about that.

    But please withdraw the allegation that I am a troll. I just don't agree with you Bart.
    What does it matter CHB? Let it go.
    How are you Ben?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,262

    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    If I had been campaigning in a political campaign I would have been able to have a meal socially distanced too.

    It is not the same as Johnson, where it was illegal to do anything and he partied any way.
    Well I wasn't campaigning for a political campaign so I was banned from having socially distanced meals. Keir was so he could. One law for him, one law for us - and he wanted to keep it that was as it would be "reckless" for you or I to have meals like that.
    It was the same law. Your government passed it.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    Was legal if you were campaigning. So you could have done!
    That parallels the argument that we were always sovereign in the EU because we could exercise thast sovereignty by leaving.

    And it's just as lame.
  • Obviously entirely unrelated to anyone on PB..

    Tom Holland from The Rest Is History podcast says

    Tom Holland
    @holland_tom
    Replying to
    @andrew_lilico

    The person to ask is @thomasknox

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1551491222824697857
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited July 2022
    Johnson campaigned on the same day, should that not have happened?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    You're getting worse than Leon. When do you start calling Starmer an Alien?
    Getting?

    I was vocally opposing lockdown at the time in April 2021, unable to legally gather inside with anyone for beer and korma.

    Meanwhile at the same time Sir Keir was legally gathering with others for beer and korma while saying it would be reckless to let the rest of us have our lives back.

    That may not have been law breaking but it was hate filled two faced hypocrisy.
    I'm not sure what you're on this morning, but seems powerful stuff. You think Starmer was cleared because he was "special", which is a serious slur on the CPS. And you say his korma was hate-filled. What?
    The police cleared Sir Keir because the politicans had made it legal for politicians to carry on campaigning fairly close to normal, including gathering in ways that they had made illegal for the rest of us. And Sir Keir, who never met a lockdown restriction he didn't think was too little and for too short a time, exploited every loophole available to him to do what he wanted.

    Did he break the law? No. But that doesn't stop him being a raging hypocrite.
    So are you saying he shouldn't have campaigned for the by-election? And when he'd lost it, you'd have been saying why didn't he do any campaigning
    He didn't need to go out for a curry with his campaign team, they could have got take-aways to their hotel.
    They didn't go out for a curry though, have you actually read what happened
    They were gathered for a curry. Legally, but they were gathered for one.

    You and I gathering for one at that time was illegal - and Keir wanted it to stay that way.

    That is the problem. Legal for them, illegal for us.
    If I had been campaigning in a political campaign I would have been able to have a meal socially distanced too.

    It is not the same as Johnson, where it was illegal to do anything and he partied any way.
    Well I wasn't campaigning for a political campaign so I was banned from having socially distanced meals. Keir was so he could. One law for him, one law for us - and he wanted to keep it that was as it would be "reckless" for you or I to have meals like that.
    It was the same law. Your government passed it.
    Supported every step of the way by Labour and Sir Keir himself, whose only objection was ever that restrictions weren't hard enough and long enough. And they objected when restrictions were eventually lifted.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263



    No I said Keir was cleared because what he did was legal, but others doing the same thing was not legal because Keir and other lawmakers were saying legalising it for us was "reckless" - but it was legalised for themselves and they were doing it themselves while denying us our basic liberties.

    I didn't gather inside with others in April 2021. I didn't have beer and korma inside with others in April 2021. I would have loved to, but it was illegal for me, and it was illegal because Keir and other politicians voted for it to be illegal for me and he was leading campaigns to keep it illegal for us, saying legalising it was reckless.

    But it was legal for them. It wasn't too reckless for him to do it, just for us to do it.

    I wanted lockdown lifted, it was screwing with my mental health, but I was kept in lockdown while he was having beer and korma with his colleagues inside while voting for us to stay lockdown and leading calls in Parliament that liftin it for us would be reckless. Legal for him, reckless for us.

    We disagree, but never mind. Turning to the "hate-filled" nature of the curry, do you want to explain what you meant?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,841

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    It's barely 10 am and you are already - like yesterday - overheating and losing your grip on language. I do hope we don't see "frogs" or "krauts" before lunchtime.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    kinabalu said:

    Is Starmer just going to pretend that the Labour leadership election never happened?

    "Keir Starmer promises to abolish tuition fees and nationalise industries if he becomes PM"
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-election-abolish-tuition-fees-nationalisation-396843

    Keir Starmer has learned the art of how to win leadership elections then pivot to the country. Only one recent Labour leader has done the same
    Indeed he's got the integrity and honesty of Boris Johnson and Tony Blair.

    It may work to win an election.
    You should vote for him then, you clearly don't value honesty or integrity in politicians
    They're politicians. I expect it from them. 🤷‍♂️

    I'm just amused at seeing people who acted all outraged at Boris showing a lack of integrity lapping up and loving Keir doing the same.
    Keir Starmer didn't party his way through lockdown
    Indeed. Instead he wanted us locked down for longer, calling lifting lockdown reckless etc, while he was prepared to engage in large gatherings of beer and korma. Legal for him but reckless and keep it illegal for the Plebs to do the same thing eh?

    A bit like the performative nonsense of Labour not bothering to wear face masks at Party Conference but wearing them at PMQs to make a point.
    He was involved in campaigning events like Johnson was, which were deemed perfectly legal. Boris Johnson was fined for having a party where a suitcase of booze was smuggled in.

    This is not a good line of ground for you to be going down, you just look silly
    He wanted it to be illegal for you and me to visit our family and friends, jeopardising our mental health, while he was legally "campaigning" with large gatherings of beer and korma. He was calling lifting lockdown reckless while engaging in large gatherings personally.

    Fuck him. Fucking hypocrite. If gatherings were reckless, he shouldn't have been doing them. If they weren't reckless he should have been calling for lifting lockdown not chastising the government as reckless for lifting it.
    It's barely 10 am and you are already - like yesterday - overheating and losing your grip on language. I do hope we don't see "frogs" or "krauts" before lunchtime.
    Bound to get a “sclerotic” about any given European government
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    Harsh but fair.


  • Reeves had a bit of an Art Attack

    @siennamarla
    Update: I'm told Labour's position on rail ownership has *NOT* changed – Rachel Reeves didn't hear the "rail" bit of the question on Today this morning.
    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1551494238910676995
This discussion has been closed.