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The data the advocates of a “progressive alliance” ignore – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,109

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
    That's a great book.

    I'm also reading Balkan Ghosts by Robert Kaplan at the moment, which references that but is brilliant in its own right.

    Basically, politics isn't contemporary here: it's entirely historical.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREXIT IS DONE !!!!!

    Parliament is about to debate the UK's plan to override the Brexit deal with the EU -- let's see how many Tory MPs speak against it... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/brexit-returns-to-uk-parliament-at-awkward-moment-for-johnson?sref=yMmXm5Iy

    When the EU talks about changing the treaties, do you mock them for integration not being 'done'?
    Of course not. FBPE remain are the craziest of all the Brexit tribes.
    But tbf the EU weren't elected to much fanfare at the last GE on a promise to Get Integration Done.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Here's a few lines from a great poem in muscular English to enjoy on a hot, sunny day:

    THE CREMATION OF SAM MCGEE
    Robert W. Service

    There are strange things done in the midnight sun
    By the men who moil for gold;
    The Arctic trails have their secret tales
    That would make your blood run cold;
    The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,
    But the queerest they ever did see
    Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge
    I cremated Sam McGee.

    Now Sam McGee was from Tennessee, where the cotton blooms and blows.
    Why he left his home in the South to roam 'round the Pole, God only knows.
    He was always cold, but the land of gold seemed to hold him like a spell;
    Though he'd often say in his homely way that "he'd sooner live in hell."

    SSI - Am hopeful that reference to "queer sights" and "the queerest" will ensure that this classic will continue to grace literary anthologies far into the current century & millennia!

    Love it. Give me poetry that rhymes, O Lord. give me poetry that rhymes

    It chimes the bells in the human soul, as blank verse simply does not. The great cynic Byron, who eschewed anything kitsch and sentimental, still employed rhyme, and immortally so. The last lines here might be the greatest rhymes ever conceived by a great poet (recall he was unhappily married to a mathematician - the Princess of Parallelograms, as he called her):

    From Don Juan:


    ‘T is pity learnéd virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though well born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation:
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Omnium said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    China is at highest combat/troop readiness since ww2
    That seems questionable doesn't it? Surely the Korean War was a bigger crisis for them?
    Yeah id have thought, i may have misread and its since '53, i cant find the piece atm
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,323

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035
    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I don't have a Twitter and I find these posts to be a good service. They don't dominate the discourse, and they're not huge in size, so if I don't like reading them, I can always skip them.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,220
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    Writing it seems also to have had some kind of terminal effect on Larkin himself. From memory, he wrote it in the mid-1970s (published in TLS), and in the remaining 10 years of his life he more or less completely lost the ability to write anything else.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,597
    [Vic Reeves voice] RADUCANU!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    Not conned, but chose a different path. We have left the political side of the EU, with all the issues associated with that. It’s come at a cost. It’s frankly quite hard to distinguish the costs of Brexit from the costs of Covid and the war in Ukraine. I have no doubt Brexit is not a net positive in a financial sense for the U.K. However it needs to be judged in the long term and not just in simple finance numbers. Other aspects count too.
    We will ultimately achieve a much smoother relationship with the EU. This has been a divorce and it takes time after divorce to be friends again, but it will happen.
    Fine, ignore @Scott_xP . My biggest complaint is how he posts his copied tweets. They are not always obvious as tweets, rather than his own words. He should take more care.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
    She's not now.
    She accepted the vote of the people.
    So have I, but I am not ready to throw my lot in with the DUP at the expense of everyone else.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
    I wanted to read the Njegos book - after you recommended it - but it is not available on Kindle, as far as I can see, and Kotor is not full of English bookshops

    So if I want a good book on the Balkans I think Rebecca West is it. That IS on Kindle
    Is this any help?

    https://archive.org/details/njegospoetprince0000djil/page/n537/mode/2up
    Almost helpful but only available by the hour

    I don't understand why publishers aren't exploiting their back catalogues and making EVERY old book available as an ebook for, say, £1 a go

    I am happy to pay that for an old book, if I can get it anywhere in the world. It is nuts you cannot do this
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145
    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
    She's not now.
    She accepted the vote of the people.
    Why on earth would she do that? Most MPs didn’t...
    Because she's "a patriot and a democrat"? 🙂
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    [Vic Reeves voice] RADUCANU!

    Shit dat wos kwick
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
    Bill fails then Boris falls and sanity is allowed back? One can hope.
    I would hope 181 of his MP's will act this summer
    Acting? It's been one enormous pantomime since Johnson became PM.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    It's not fucking "reportage". @Scott_xP is not on the front line of Brexit, with the shrapnel of the NI Protocol whistling past his ears. It is retweeting

    The main emotion it evokes is pity for him. And intense boredom. Is that what he wants? Fair enough, but it does not adorn the site nor does it advance his cause
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,597
    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    "A shopping centre in east Ukraine with more than 1,000 people inside has been hit by a Russian missile strike, President Volodymyr Zelensky says"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
    I'd not say it was a fantastic argument from Truss, but Hoare is being rather pompous about it given that casting yourself as patriotic and others either less so or not at all is common political currency.

    Take this from Kier Starmer earlier this year, "Patriots cherish our great institutions. Boris Johnson slanders and degrades them."

    I happen to think Starmer had a good point, and Truss didn't. But the idea that casting your position as more patriotic than mine is the political equivalent of claiming my Mum is a slag is just daft. It's simply part of the normal political discourse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    EPG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
    Definite theme here. Remoaners don't like poetry. They are quintessentially middlebrow
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,538
    Leon said:

    Love it. Give me poetry that rhymes, O Lord. give me poetry that rhymes

    It chimes the bells in the human soul, as blank verse simply does not. The great cynic Byron, who eschewed anything kitsch and sentimental, still employed rhyme, and immortally so. The last lines here might be the greatest rhymes ever conceived by a great poet (recall he was unhappily married to a mathematician - the Princess of Parallelograms, as he called her):

    From Don Juan:


    ‘T is pity learnéd virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though well born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation:
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?

    Don Juan is magnificent. In the old days, when the BBC was a good broadcaster, they ran a superb multi-part reading of it by Ronald Pickup, who captured it perfectly. He had just the right combination of respecting the verse, but also making it colloquial to just the right degree to bring off lines like:

    A little still she strove, and much repented,
    And whispering 'I will ne'er consent'--consented.


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,790
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    And that's the other problem with the whole "X is no longer on the GCSE syllabus" thing.

    There's lots of art that I would love young people to be exposed to without wanting them to have to use it as fodder for writing GCSE essays.

    More "Listen to this. Look at this. It may shatter your life into a million rainbows, or quietly take root to burst forth in twenty years time. Or it may just wash over you. I don't know, and it doesn't really matter.

    Don't study it, or make it into a set of revision flashcards. Save that for An Inspector Calls. You can learn to write competent essays about An Inspector Calls. This is just something to experience."

    We don't have a mechanism to do that much at the moment, especially since any time spent on that isn't time learning to write a competent essay on An Inspector Calls. And that's what gains grades.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,944
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home.

    Why? We already know he hates Brexit. Flooding the comments with tweets from people of a similar bent contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,323
    edited June 27

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    "Reportage"? If reading Twitter and reposting it is reportage then I can be fucking Kate Adie.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868

    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    "A shopping centre in east Ukraine with more than 1,000 people inside has been hit by a Russian missile strike, President Volodymyr Zelensky says"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
    Yep, that was this afternoon. Hundreds of kilometres from the front lines, just a random shopping centre sent a missile in the middle of the day. At least 2 dead and 20 wounded, numbers which will undoubtedly rise.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    DougSeal said:

    Applicant said:

    Well, I've spent most of today in the beach (air temp 30, water temp 25 - delightful) so I'm not going to let the mood be spoiled by one of Scotty's brainless regurgitations.


    Scott 'n Paste sometimes makes this Remainer want to join the dark side. I wish there were a 'mute' button on this thing.
    Could judicious use of the off topic button by all of us fed up with Scott n’Paste’s endless repetitive retweets show the mods we are not wanting to see them?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868
    Andy_JS said:
    I know it’s an unpopular opinion on here, but there’s no way she should be 6th favourite after one match. Lay all day.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,538
    Whilst we're discussing quoting of tweets:

    Alastair Meeks @AlastairMeeks

    I think Liz Truss can rule out the idea of Theresa May helping her campaign team.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Leon said:

    Love it. Give me poetry that rhymes, O Lord. give me poetry that rhymes

    It chimes the bells in the human soul, as blank verse simply does not. The great cynic Byron, who eschewed anything kitsch and sentimental, still employed rhyme, and immortally so. The last lines here might be the greatest rhymes ever conceived by a great poet (recall he was unhappily married to a mathematician - the Princess of Parallelograms, as he called her):

    From Don Juan:


    ‘T is pity learnéd virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though well born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation:
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?

    Don Juan is magnificent. In the old days, when the BBC was a good broadcaster, they ran a superb multi-part reading of it by Ronald Pickup, who captured it perfectly. He had just the right combination of respecting the verse, but also making it colloquial to just the right degree to bring off lines like:

    A little still she strove, and much repented,
    And whispering 'I will ne'er consent'--consented.


    Don Juan is a masterpiece. I reread it quite recently, and there are some duller passages - it is long, after all - but when it sings it SINGS

    What did surprise me on my recent reconnection with Byron was "Beppo". Never read it before. One of his supposed lesser long poems, inked near the end of his life when he had really conquered that world-weary yet deeply witty Late Byronic style. It is laugh-out-loud funny, and clever, because he spends 90% of the poem bemoaning the fact he cannot write the poem, and might not even be bothered, and does-anyone-care, and oh well here it is

    Extremely post-modern, yet composed 200 years ago. Genius
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I know it’s an unpopular opinion on here, but there’s no way she should be 6th favourite after one match. Lay all day.
    I agree on the lay, but the movement to shorter odds is because today’s opponent was a significant challenge overcome.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,538
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Love it. Give me poetry that rhymes, O Lord. give me poetry that rhymes

    It chimes the bells in the human soul, as blank verse simply does not. The great cynic Byron, who eschewed anything kitsch and sentimental, still employed rhyme, and immortally so. The last lines here might be the greatest rhymes ever conceived by a great poet (recall he was unhappily married to a mathematician - the Princess of Parallelograms, as he called her):

    From Don Juan:


    ‘T is pity learnéd virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though well born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation:
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?

    Don Juan is magnificent. In the old days, when the BBC was a good broadcaster, they ran a superb multi-part reading of it by Ronald Pickup, who captured it perfectly. He had just the right combination of respecting the verse, but also making it colloquial to just the right degree to bring off lines like:

    A little still she strove, and much repented,
    And whispering 'I will ne'er consent'--consented.


    Don Juan is a masterpiece. I reread it quite recently, and there are some duller passages - it is long, after all - but when it sings it SINGS

    What did surprise me on my recent reconnection with Byron was "Beppo". Never read it before. One of his supposed lesser long poems, inked near the end of his life when he had really conquered that world-weary yet deeply witty Late Byronic style. It is laugh-out-loud funny, and clever, because he spends 90% of the poem bemoaning the fact he cannot write the poem, and might not even be bothered, and does-anyone-care, and oh well here it is

    Extremely post-modern, yet composed 200 years ago. Genius
    Ah, I haven't read that. I'll give it a try.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    This link may help you decide when to get out of town. https://www.cruisetimetables.com/kotor-montenegro-cruise-ship-schedule.html
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,145
    Andy_JS said:
    Not a surprise. Van Uytvanck was a very credible opponent and Raducanu didn't display any physical frailties.

    I'd imagine that everyone else is still some distance between Swiatek though. The women's title is hers to lose based on recent form.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I know it’s an unpopular opinion on here, but there’s no way she should be 6th favourite after one match. Lay all day.
    10th seed, and moves up by virtue of needing one fewer win than more than half the field?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 10,437
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
    I wanted to read the Njegos book - after you recommended it - but it is not available on Kindle, as far as I can see, and Kotor is not full of English bookshops

    So if I want a good book on the Balkans I think Rebecca West is it. That IS on Kindle
    Is this any help?

    https://archive.org/details/njegospoetprince0000djil/page/n537/mode/2up
    Almost helpful but only available by the hour

    I don't understand why publishers aren't exploiting their back catalogues and making EVERY old book available as an ebook for, say, £1 a go

    I am happy to pay that for an old book, if I can get it anywhere in the world. It is nuts you cannot do this
    Just signed up myself and checked out for an hour, in part to see how much hassle it is to take out for subsequent hours.

    Have been looking for this book off and on for years, had a copy years ago but somehow let it slip out of my fingers (and library). Out of print for years, pretty rare.

    The setup esp. one-hour limit is a pain in the you-know-what, but at least it's available!

    Anyway, thanks for giving me the impetus to seek out Njegos by Djlas (try saying THAT five times rapid) on-line.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    It's not fucking "reportage". @Scott_xP is not on the front line of Brexit, with the shrapnel of the NI Protocol whistling past his ears. It is retweeting

    The main emotion it evokes is pity for him. And intense boredom. Is that what he wants? Fair enough, but it does not adorn the site nor does it advance his cause
    I think we’re all on the front line of Brexit!

    Bless him, he’s in the digital trenches, a plucky runner risking life and limb - and perhaps sanity - to bring us, the armchair generals, blood flecked dispatches full of tales of pettifogging bureaucracy, tumbling exports and frustrated holiday makers, ruefully eyeing the EU gates.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Matt on form tonight.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Love it. Give me poetry that rhymes, O Lord. give me poetry that rhymes

    It chimes the bells in the human soul, as blank verse simply does not. The great cynic Byron, who eschewed anything kitsch and sentimental, still employed rhyme, and immortally so. The last lines here might be the greatest rhymes ever conceived by a great poet (recall he was unhappily married to a mathematician - the Princess of Parallelograms, as he called her):

    From Don Juan:


    ‘T is pity learnéd virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though well born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation:
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?

    Don Juan is magnificent. In the old days, when the BBC was a good broadcaster, they ran a superb multi-part reading of it by Ronald Pickup, who captured it perfectly. He had just the right combination of respecting the verse, but also making it colloquial to just the right degree to bring off lines like:

    A little still she strove, and much repented,
    And whispering 'I will ne'er consent'--consented.


    Don Juan is a masterpiece. I reread it quite recently, and there are some duller passages - it is long, after all - but when it sings it SINGS

    What did surprise me on my recent reconnection with Byron was "Beppo". Never read it before. One of his supposed lesser long poems, inked near the end of his life when he had really conquered that world-weary yet deeply witty Late Byronic style. It is laugh-out-loud funny, and clever, because he spends 90% of the poem bemoaning the fact he cannot write the poem, and might not even be bothered, and does-anyone-care, and oh well here it is

    Extremely post-modern, yet composed 200 years ago. Genius
    Ah, I haven't read that. I'll give it a try.
    Honestly, it's a cracker. Let me know what you think
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    This link may help you decide when to get out of town. https://www.cruisetimetables.com/kotor-montenegro-cruise-ship-schedule.html
    I have a copy of Black Lamb and Grey Falcon but never quite got around to starting it.

    Massive book.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,109
    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    I'll be interested to see what we'll be contributing to that.

    It should be 40-50k troops given our global standing and foreign policy aspirations but I doubt we'll achieve anything like that with our army as tiny as it is at the moment.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286
    pigeon said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Not a surprise. Van Uytvanck was a very credible opponent and Raducanu didn't display any physical frailties.

    I'd imagine that everyone else is still some distance between Swiatek though. The women's title is hers to lose based on recent form.
    I'd worry slightly that Raducanu's thigh was strapped but I've not been following her build-up. Good luck, although I suspect a repeat US Open win is more likely.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    edited June 27
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    The Irish Airman (like most Yeats) is fab. Up there with Tennyson’s Crossing the Bar as an absolute favourite


    Sunset and evening star,
    And one clear call for me!
    And may there be no moaning of the bar,
    When I put out to sea,

    But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
    Too full for sound and foam,
    When that which drew from out the boundless deep
    Turns again home.

    Twilight and evening bell,
    And after that the dark!
    And may there be no sadness of farewell,
    When I embark;

    For tho' from out our bourne of Time and Place
    The flood may bear me far,
    I hope to see my Pilot face to face
    When I have crost the bar.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
    Definite theme here. Remoaners don't like poetry. They are quintessentially middlebrow
    Most poems aren't good, just as most films and paintings and statues aren't good. To think otherwise betrays an epicurean's lack of critical judgement. Albeit, for me, the most is larger than many other people. But the idea that poetry is not middlebrow is puzzling. Poetry is firmly middlebrow.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    Not conned, but chose a different path. We have left the political side of the EU, with all the issues associated with that. It’s come at a cost. It’s frankly quite hard to distinguish the costs of Brexit from the costs of Covid and the war in Ukraine. I have no doubt Brexit is not a net positive in a financial sense for the U.K. However it needs to be judged in the long term and not just in simple finance numbers. Other aspects count too.
    We will ultimately achieve a much smoother relationship with the EU. This has been a divorce and it takes time after divorce to be friends again, but it will happen.
    Fine, ignore @Scott_xP . My biggest complaint is how he posts his copied tweets. They are not always obvious as tweets, rather than his own words. He should take more care.
    Eminent economists seem to have distinguished the costs of Brexit from Covid and Ukraine.

    It certainly will be judged in the long term. And I may be wrong, but I don’t think it will be a ringing endorsement.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    It's not fucking "reportage". @Scott_xP is not on the front line of Brexit, with the shrapnel of the NI Protocol whistling past his ears. It is retweeting

    The main emotion it evokes is pity for him. And intense boredom. Is that what he wants? Fair enough, but it does not adorn the site nor does it advance his cause
    I think we’re all on the front line of Brexit!

    Bless him, he’s in the digital trenches, a plucky runner risking life and limb - and perhaps sanity - to bring us, the armchair generals, blood flecked dispatches full of tales of pettifogging bureaucracy, tumbling exports and frustrated holiday makers, ruefully eyeing the EU gates.
    I'm pro the @Scott_xP tweets. He gives the text and the link. What I'm less keen on are screenshots of tweets that are often too small to read, and posted without links to the original.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    And some might construe the mass pile on as bullying ?

    Or doesn’t that count if it’s Scott ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    I fear those 300K will be in action sooner rather than later.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 4,176
    edited June 27
    Andy_JS said:
    11th to 6th favourite isn't really a terribly helpful way to look at it.

    Firstly, lots of first round matches are yet to be played. Raducanu (and everyone else who advanced today) has one fewer match to play to win the thing than everyone who sat today out. Six wins in a row needed rather than seven isn't a negligible difference. It doesn't reflect some fundamental change of sentiment - just the reality that she's knocked off one of the opponents she needs to, and many others haven't yet.

    Secondly, there is a fairly strong favourite for this tournament - Iga Swietek is on a 35 match winning streak, which is fantastic (albeit she's light on grass court experience so that's a doubt). Raducanu is at 22-1 - part of a field of players who are deemed capable of winning a grand slam tournament (because she has) but probably won't win this one. 6th and 11th aren't really that different in terms of odds.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 10,437
    Here is a bit of poesy from the introduction to Njegos -

    MONTENEGRO
    Alfred Lord Tennyson

    O smallest among peoples! rough rock-throne
    Of Freedom! Warriors beating back the swarm
    Of Turkish Islam for five hundred years,
    Great Tzernagora! never since thy own
    Black ridges drew the cloud and break the storm
    Has breathed a race of mightier mountaineers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868
    Applicant said:

    Matt on form tonight.


    The Qataris will have not stopped laughing for three days over this story.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
    Definite theme here. Remoaners don't like poetry. They are quintessentially middlebrow
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
    Definite theme here. Remoaners don't like poetry. They are quintessentially middlebrow
    Like you I love This Be The Verse. The only poem I can quote from memory. Good job it’s short.

    I’m not a huge fan of poetry but I do have a soft spot for Charles Bukowski. I like his prose too:

    "There's nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don't live up until their death. They don't honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can't hear it. Most people's deaths are a sham. There's nothing left to die."

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    For me, having tried a lot of poetry and now like almost none of it, one of the few I'll still remember and like is his "In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markievicz".
    Definite theme here. Remoaners don't like poetry. They are quintessentially middlebrow
    Most poems aren't good, just as most films and paintings and statues aren't good. To think otherwise betrays an epicurean's lack of critical judgement. Albeit, for me, the most is larger than many other people. But the idea that poetry is not middlebrow is puzzling. Poetry is firmly middlebrow.
    Such a middlebrow, bourgeois, Remoanery thing to say
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    It's not fucking "reportage". @Scott_xP is not on the front line of Brexit, with the shrapnel of the NI Protocol whistling past his ears. It is retweeting

    The main emotion it evokes is pity for him. And intense boredom. Is that what he wants? Fair enough, but it does not adorn the site nor does it advance his cause
    I think we’re all on the front line of Brexit!

    Bless him, he’s in the digital trenches, a plucky runner risking life and limb - and perhaps sanity - to bring us, the armchair generals, blood flecked dispatches full of tales of pettifogging bureaucracy, tumbling exports and frustrated holiday makers, ruefully eyeing the EU gates.
    Mute button? Man's won the FBPE VC many times over. Remember those times he posted stuff slightly too uncooked, got a pasting, but still went over the top again.

    That's how you win wars.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 877
    Leon asked: "I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!"

    Harry Truman thought it was a great book. And, having read it a few years ago, I would agree, but I would warn you that you may find it depressing. (I did.)
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145
    I’m being indulgent now, forgive me. More Bukowski:

    Out Of The Arms Of One Love...


    out of the arms of one love
    and into the arms of another
    I have been saved from dying on the cross
    by a lady who smokes pot
    writes songs and stories
    and is much kinder than the last,
    much much kinder,
    and the sex is just as good or better.
    it isn't pleasant to be put on the cross and left there,
    it is much more pleasant to forget a love which didn't
    work
    as all love
    finally
    doesn't work...
    it is much more pleasant to make love
    along the shore in Del Mar
    in room 42, and afterwards
    sitting up in bed
    drinking good wine, talking and touching
    smoking
    listening to the waves...

    I have died too many times
    believing and waiting, waiting
    in a room
    staring at a cracked ceiling
    wating for the phone, a letter, a knock, a sound...
    going wild inside
    while she danced with strangers in nightclubs...
    out of the arms of one love
    and into the arms of another
    it's not pleasant to die on the cross,
    it is much more pleasant to hear your name whispered in
    the dark.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    Well, we're not always the most determined, but at the least NATO ramping up in response is so obvious one might be tempted to think he wanted that for some bizarre reason.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    Kate's quite correct.
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 53
    I voted Remain. Leave won. I am not interested in attempts to reverse this.

    I like poetry, well actually I like verse (and am indifferent to heightened prose).

    I try to write verse, and commend the villanelle as a form worth attempting (other forms are available).

    I probably will go gently, if I'm lucky
  • kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    Well, we're not always the most determined, but at the least NATO ramping up in response is so obvious one might be tempted to think he wanted that for some bizarre reason.
    I'm sure everybody in his echo chamber of a circle thought it would be great.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    I get that. I still think it needs hammering home. Not everyone goes on Twitter.

    And even if you do, it is extremely easy to get stuck in your own Twitter circle jerk, only hearing voices you agree with. It’s Twitter’s biggest fault.

    It is good, IMHO, to have Scott’s reportage. Many will find it uncomfortable, or, like you, irritating. I still think he does a valuable service posting in the way he does.

    It's not fucking "reportage". @Scott_xP is not on the front line of Brexit, with the shrapnel of the NI Protocol whistling past his ears. It is retweeting

    The main emotion it evokes is pity for him. And intense boredom. Is that what he wants? Fair enough, but it does not adorn the site nor does it advance his cause
    I think we’re all on the front line of Brexit!

    Bless him, he’s in the digital trenches, a plucky runner risking life and limb - and perhaps sanity - to bring us, the armchair generals, blood flecked dispatches full of tales of pettifogging bureaucracy, tumbling exports and frustrated holiday makers, ruefully eyeing the EU gates.
    Mute button? Man's won the FBPE VC many times over. Remember those times he posted stuff slightly too uncooked, got a pasting, but still went over the top again.

    That's how you win wars.
    If Brexit was a war, Scotty is Hiroo Onoda.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,100

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    Writing it seems also to have had some kind of terminal effect on Larkin himself. From memory, he wrote it in the mid-1970s (published in TLS), and in the remaining 10 years of his life he more or less completely lost the ability to write anything else.
    Is that right? I didn't know that. Perhaps because it nails the most fundamental truth there is - the one everybody devotes their life to avoiding or rationalising - and once you've done that there's nowhere to go. You've quite literally said it all.

    Or maybe it was something else. I haven't read up on him much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
    I'd not say it was a fantastic argument from Truss, but Hoare is being rather pompous about it given that casting yourself as patriotic and others either less so or not at all is common political currency.

    Take this from Kier Starmer earlier this year, "Patriots cherish our great institutions. Boris Johnson slanders and degrades them."

    I happen to think Starmer had a good point, and Truss didn't. But the idea that casting your position as more patriotic than mine is the political equivalent of claiming my Mum is a slag is just daft. It's simply part of the normal political discourse.
    Not really - it's about how you choose to deploy it in that discourse. If it is a reflexive goto move without even any pretext, that's lazy. Starmer is at least making a proper argument as to why Boris's actions are not patriotic, even if it is a standard ploy, and when people attaced Corbyn for being unpatriotic it was backed up with a lot of reasoning, even if not everyone agreed with the conclusion.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,437
    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,145

    Sandpit said:

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    A firm reply to what Russia and China are up to.

    Did Putin expect that raining down Hell onto Kiev, just as the G7 meeting started, would make the rest of the world scared of him, or even more determined to stand up to him and his evil regime.
    I fear those 300K will be in action sooner rather than later.
    Probably not, thank goodness. It'll take years for Russia to wear down Ukraine - a large country territorially but of the lower second division militarily - at the current rate of progress. I'm not sure I'd back Russia to beat Poland or Finland in a conventional war, let alone the entirety of NATO, and Russia can't resort to nuclear weapons without being vaporised itself.

    Putin can hardly be the heir to Peter the Great if he and his people are just so many charred skeletons entombed beneath a sheet of radioactive glass. He'll try to finish clearing the Ukrainians out of the Donbas, use the offer of a ceasefire to weaken both the resolve of Ukraine to fight and the unity of its backers, annex all of his gains, and possibly come back for more in a few years' time if the Ukrainians are not sufficiently reinforced.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    Sandpit said:

    Applicant said:

    Matt on form tonight.


    The Qataris will have not stopped laughing for three days over this story.
    If they don't have dozens of other world leaders abasing themselves for cash on video to chuckle over and warm their hearts on cold nights (theoretical), I am a monkey's uncle.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 10,437
    THE FIGHTING RACE
    Joseph Ignatius Constantine Clarke

    "Read out the names!" and Burke sat back,
    And Kelly drooped his head.
    While Shea--they call him Scholar Jack--
    Went down the list of the dead.
    Officers, seamen, gunners, marines,
    The crews of the gig and yawl,
    The bearded man and the lad in his teens,
    Carpenters, coal passers--all.
    Then, knocking the ashes from out his pipe,
    Said Burke in an offhand way:
    "We're all in that dead man's list, by Cripe!
    Kelly and Burke and Shea."
    "Well, here's to the Maine, and I'm sorry for Spain,"
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    "Wherever there's Kellys there's trouble," said Burke.
    "Wherever fighting's the game,
    Or a spice of danger in grown man's work,"
    Said Kelly, "you'll find my name."
    "And do we fall short," said Burke, getting mad,
    "When it's touch and go for life?"
    Said Shea, "It's thirty-odd years, bedad,
    Since I charged to drum and fife
    Up Marye's Heights, and my old canteen
    Stopped a rebel ball on its way.
    There were blossoms of blood on our sprigs of green--
    Kelly and Burke and Shea--
    And the dead didn't brag." "Well, here's to the flag!"
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    "I wish't was in Ireland, for there's the place,"
    Said Burke, "that we'd die by right,
    In the cradle of our soldier race,
    After one good stand-up fight.
    My grandfather fell on Vinegar Hill,
    And fighting was not his trade;
    But his rusty pike's in the cabin still,
    With Hessian blood on the blade."
    "Aye, aye," said Kelly, "the pikes were great
    When the word was 'clear the way!'
    We were thick on the roll in ninety-eight--
    Kelly and Burke and Shea."
    "Well, here's to the pike and the sword and the like!"
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    And Shea, the scholar, with rising joy,
    Said, "We were at Ramillies;
    We left our bones at Fontenoy
    And up in the Pyrenees;
    Before Dunkirk, on Landen's plain,
    Cremona, Lille, and Ghent,
    We're all over Austria, France, and Spain,
    Wherever they pitched a tent.
    We've died for England from Waterloo
    To Egypt and Dargai;
    And still there's enough for a corps or crew,
    Kelly and Burke and Shea."
    "Well, here is to good honest fighting blood!"
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    "Oh, the fighting races don't die out,
    If they seldom die in bed,
    For love is first in their hearts, no doubt,"
    Said Burke; then Kelly said:
    "When Michael, the Irish Archangel, stands,
    The angel with the sword,
    And the battle-dead from a hundred lands
    Are ranged in one big horde,
    Our line, that for Gabriel's trumpet waits,
    Will stretch three deep that day,
    From Jehoshaphat to the Golden Gates--
    Kelly and Burke and Shea."
    "Well, here's thank God for the race and the sod!"
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol on Monday abruptly scheduled a hearing for Tuesday afternoon to hear what the panel called “recently obtained evidence” and take witness testimony.

    NY Times
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,250

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    Odd. If true, why would Labour leak it to the Telegraph?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Telegraph
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 53
    And if Putin prefers mass-extinction to failing to extend Russia's borders to the old Warsaw pact and beyond?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,812
    eek said:



    What you don't say in the above is equally important.

    If next year Labour decided to run 2 candidates or the Lib Dems decided to run 2 candidates it's very likely that by splitting the vote you could end up in a position where both of you miss out.

    Quite so. I dare say that both parties will not get round to finding a second candidate. So hard to find the right people, and difficult to justify where we have no major quarrels.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,404
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
    I find it incredibly lazy to cut and paste Twitter posts in lieu of an actual opinion. Not you of course.
    Pah, he is providing a public service
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    EXC: Three Red Wall Tory MPs are in discussion with Labour about crossing the floor.

    The MPs are understood to be concerned they will lose their seats at the next election, but could keep their jobs if they defect.

    https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1541478851569647617
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,547
    edited June 27

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    Writing it seems also to have had some kind of terminal effect on Larkin himself. From memory, he wrote it in the mid-1970s (published in TLS), and in the remaining 10 years of his life he more or less completely lost the ability to write anything else.
    It was effectively his last word. Larkin is best understood (James Booth's book on him says something like this) as having a small number of poems which say what he has to say, Whitsun Weddings, Dockery and Son etc, and Aubade is the last of these, leaving nothing else to be said.

    I still remember opening the TLS and reading it on publication.

    BTW he is distinctive in that he only published the good stuff. Not a single dud. Unlike most other people. Though all his dross has been published since of course.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,404

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the bill "a muscle flex for a future leadership bid" Hoare asks of Liz Truss's Northern Ireland protocol bill.
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460767186247686

    Most of us have Twitter accounts. We don't need you to come in here and post this stuff. Can you imagine what PB would be like if we all did this? It's boring, worse its annoyingly boring.
    To be honest I just cannot be bothered with him and he is only irritating many who may otherwise be amenable to a sensible discussion on brexit

    Furthermore, for all his fury the political establishment are not seeking to rejoin and both Starmer and Lammy even went as far as to say Labour will not rejoin the single market

    It seems we could be in for years of his tweets going nowhere
    Much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Tories, you boys can hardly moan from your glasshouses given the huge amount of Tory manure we have to put up with on here. Regale us with those Brexit sunny uplands
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Hey @Leon - Owen Jones is not far from you in the Balkans.

    Chance to hang out and put the world to rights over a stack of pevo? :smiley:



    Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    ·
    2h
    So I met this beautiful little puss in Dubrovnik and it’s been bugging me ever since, because it’s obviously not well.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    edited June 27

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    Golden rule of defection rumours is, of course, that they almost never pan out and is just parties messing with their opponents*.

    But what is decided to be a somewhat credible defection rumour is nonetheless interesting.

    *Ignore the SNP to Alba (they're still around!) defections and we've gone one Con-Lab defection this parliament, and even with all the movement in the last parliament only one defection straight from one major party to another, Con-LD (Change UK formed a group but was not a party straight away so doesn't count as direct).

    At least Labour have had more Con defectors than the reverse, so it is slightly more plausible now. I also see from wiki in the 30s Mosley formed a party called the New Party some defected to - what a lazy name!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,404
    DougSeal said:

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I've felt like the country has been conned for six years. These Tweets are available on Twitter. I don't come here for syndicated Tweets. I go to Twitter for tweets. They're counterproductive because, amazingly, the poster on here who gets me most wound up about Brexit is a fellow Remainer.
    Well F*** off to twitter then , lots of us are happy to have differing opinions and not just your Tory hogwash. Be off with you and whine elsewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    agingjb2 said:

    And if Putin prefers mass-extinction to failing to extend Russia's borders to the old Warsaw pact and beyond?

    Then he is so irrational there is no point in appeasing him in any case, since something else would set him off.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    Writing it seems also to have had some kind of terminal effect on Larkin himself. From memory, he wrote it in the mid-1970s (published in TLS), and in the remaining 10 years of his life he more or less completely lost the ability to write anything else.
    It was effectively his last word. Larkin is best understood (James Booth's book on him says something like this) as having a small number of poems which say what he has to say, Whitsun Weddings, Dockery and Son etc, and Aubade is the last of these, leaving nothing else to be said.

    I still remember opening the TLS and reading it on publication.

    BTW he is distinctive in that he only published the good stuff. Not a single dud. Unlike most other people. Though all his dross has been published since of course.

    He turned down the poet laureate job in part because he feared he was spent iirc.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,812
    Two very diverse queries for the PB Brain Trust, only one of them political:

    1. In my job, we are scattered all over Europe, and periodically need to sign contracts received in PDF form electronically. Adobe charge £15/month for this option (though if you sign up for a trial and cancel they'll offer you a £10 rate). Is there a cheaper alternative?

    2. It's becoming rather evident that the war is going to last more than 6 months, and anecdotally there will be a non-trivial number of hosts of refugees who feel that they were very glad to help initially but they don't necessarily wan tto do it indefinitely. Some refugees will have found longer-term places to stay, others not. The default would be that the refugee is declared involuntarily homeless and the local authority then needs to find places for them. Is there a national strategy for this eventuality, e.g. further support to encourage hosts to extend the arrahngement?
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,145

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    I do think there’s some merit to the argument that if you defect, there should be a by-election. Whether it benefits my team or not. Just doesn’t seem like cricket.

    I suppose I could let it go if it’s done on a sincere matter of conscience. No laughing at the back.

    But it rankles if it’s done purely cos you think you’re going to be turfed out at the next election.

    Obviously all these people will be the former, suffering sleepless nights, wrestling with their conscience as they contemplate the social democracy stirring in their, previously avowedly Johnsonian, hearts.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    edited June 27

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    Not conned, but chose a different path. We have left the political side of the EU, with all the issues associated with that. It’s come at a cost. It’s frankly quite hard to distinguish the costs of Brexit from the costs of Covid and the war in Ukraine. I have no doubt Brexit is not a net positive in a financial sense for the U.K. However it needs to be judged in the long term and not just in simple finance numbers. Other aspects count too.
    We will ultimately achieve a much smoother relationship with the EU. This has been a divorce and it takes time after divorce to be friends again, but it will happen.
    Fine, ignore @Scott_xP . My biggest complaint is how he posts his copied tweets. They are not always obvious as tweets, rather than his own words. He should take more care.
    Eminent economists seem to have distinguished the costs of Brexit from Covid and Ukraine.

    It certainly will be judged in the long term. And I may be wrong, but I don’t think it will be a ringing endorsement.
    I have little respect for eminent economists given how poorly they are able to predict anything about the economy, and how much I suspect they have their own prejudices to help ‘tweak’ assumptions in their models.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    Odd. If true, why would Labour leak it to the Telegraph?
    For the bit in bold - either to make any defectors look like selfish traitors, or to fire a shit across the bows at Boris, by being clear they are only contemplating it because he is no longer an electoral asset.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,404

    I for one am glad Scott_xP puts up the tweets. Obviously helps that I agree with the points he’s making, whether he is using his own words or someone else’s. We need to hear it. Because Brexit has had a massively negative impact, and will continue to do so, until we accept that and start to try and resolve it (and not by unilaterally breaking treaties we have signed). And we’re far from that point. But we’re getting there slowly.

    Stick your fingers in your ears, have a pop at Scott_xP, scroll past his posts without reading them, do whatever you feel. It won’t change the fact that gradually, steadily, inexorably, the country is realising it has been conned.

    I think the problem with Scott's twitter postings is that he engages in no editorial capacity - if it is anti-Brexit he will post it no matter how patently stupid or wrong it is. He makes no comment, rarely if ever responds to other people's comment and is content to repost utter drivel alongside some occasional good tweets. I have liked some of the tweets he has posted in the past but the vast bulk are fatuous and stupid and add nothing to the site if he is not willing to engage and defend them himself. I can only assume he doesn't do this because of his own lack of knowledge and ability.
    Exactly this. And, if you complain, he more often than not responds with abuse.

    He's clearly a very angry man. It's rather sad really given he's now spent 6 years of his life doing this day in day out and he's probably only got a maximum of 90 on this planet.

    He's blown (at least) 7% of his whole lifespan being desperately angry and unhappy. It's sad really.

    My irony meter just exploded................were you looking in the mirror when you posted that Mr Angry
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,944

    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    EXC: Three Red Wall Tory MPs are in discussion with Labour about crossing the floor.

    The MPs are understood to be concerned they will lose their seats at the next election, but could keep their jobs if they defect.

    https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1541478851569647617

    It seems unlikely to me that Labour voters would suddenly be happy to vote for a former Tory MP even if they switched sides.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,437

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    I do think there’s some merit to the argument that if you defect, there should be a by-election. Whether it benefits my team or not. Just doesn’t seem like cricket.

    I suppose I could let it go if it’s done on a sincere matter of conscience. No laughing at the back.

    But it rankles if it’s done purely cos you think you’re going to be turfed out at the next election.

    Obviously all these people will be the former, suffering sleepless nights, wrestling with their conscience as they contemplate the social democracy stirring in their, previously avowedly Johnsonian, hearts.
    There was a time I was quite willing to kneecap defectors from the Tory Party, one in particular I wanted to stick a red hot poker up his arse for the timing of his treachery.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,811
    edited June 27

    eek said:



    What you don't say in the above is equally important.

    If next year Labour decided to run 2 candidates or the Lib Dems decided to run 2 candidates it's very likely that by splitting the vote you could end up in a position where both of you miss out.

    Quite so. I dare say that both parties will not get round to finding a second candidate. So hard to find the right people, and difficult to justify where we have no major quarrels.
    Hi Dr Nick! Wondered if you had seen this Guardian article and had any thoughts about it?

    "If you think Denmark is all Borgen and social equality, take a look at its awful ‘ghetto’ law"
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/27/denmark-ghetto-law-eviction-non-western-residents-housing-estates
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    EXC: Three Red Wall Tory MPs are in discussion with Labour about crossing the floor.

    The MPs are understood to be concerned they will lose their seats at the next election, but could keep their jobs if they defect.

    https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1541478851569647617

    It seems unlikely to me that Labour voters would suddenly be happy to vote for a former Tory MP even if they switched sides.
    Do most voters pay that much attention?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    Odd. If true, why would Labour leak it to the Telegraph?
    Didnt the Telegraph run with the series of Labour to Con defections allegedly under discussion earlier last year? It might have been the Times.
    Its always either bullshit or leaked by the party being defected from to try and pressure colleagues/friends to intervene.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093

    Two very diverse queries for the PB Brain Trust, only one of them political:

    1. In my job, we are scattered all over Europe, and periodically need to sign contracts received in PDF form electronically. Adobe charge £15/month for this option (though if you sign up for a trial and cancel they'll offer you a £10 rate). Is there a cheaper alternative?

    2. It's becoming rather evident that the war is going to last more than 6 months, and anecdotally there will be a non-trivial number of hosts of refugees who feel that they were very glad to help initially but they don't necessarily wan tto do it indefinitely. Some refugees will have found longer-term places to stay, others not. The default would be that the refugee is declared involuntarily homeless and the local authority then needs to find places for them. Is there a national strategy for this eventuality, e.g. further support to encourage hosts to extend the arrahngement?

    On 2.

    Take a wild guess given this government's record on delivery and performance.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    edited June 27
    DougSeal said:

    Well, if the thread header is wrong, the Progressive Alliance (Lab/LD subsection) is at 56%. Wonder if we’ll see the LDs at 20%?

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Westminster Voting Intention (26 June):

    Labour 41% (–)
    Conservative 33% (+1)
    Liberal Democrat 15% (+2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (-2)
    Other 1% (-1)


    https://mobile.twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1541451338151780352

    I wont say I am PBs best psephologist, because that would come across as patronising and full of myself.

    But I am the sexiest psephologist around, and my view is there has definitely been a Lib Dem uptick since the locals. However, to mid teens degree? Not all pollsters think so. Why? Sure there’s roundabouts and churn between elections, but between polls? The headline here shows Reform down 2 Lib Dem up 2, but not sharing the same voters.
    I think more a case as when you are polling, the smaller parties can very easily be over or under represented in polls, particularly with certain vote for them turned on. 15% of a thousand people would be 147 people, find only 126 in sample Lib Dems and the result is 12% not 15. Ditto 12% and 9. Reform dropping 2 to 3% could only be difference between find 46 and 34?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,403
    edited June 27
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the bill "a muscle flex for a future leadership bid" Hoare asks of Liz Truss's Northern Ireland protocol bill.
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460767186247686

    Most of us have Twitter accounts. We don't need you to come in here and post this stuff. Can you imagine what PB would be like if we all did this? It's boring, worse its annoyingly boring.
    Then why don't you fuck off?

    If you want to read travelogues go to the Thomas Cook site
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    I do think there’s some merit to the argument that if you defect, there should be a by-election. Whether it benefits my team or not. Just doesn’t seem like cricket.
    .
    One of the actually decent things UKIP did.

    Personally I don't think it should be a requirement if you change party, or at the least not if you cease to be a member of your party, since that would give the whips far too much power to punish members.

    Coincidentally I was reading on the BBC yesterday about a crisis in Maharashtra, all to do with Shiv Sena splitting, and legal challenges etc, and it wasn't until the very end that it became clear that the problem is an 'anti-defection law' which means a certain number of lawmakers need to support the defection else they are disqualified it seems.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-61947789
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,242
    kle4 said:

    Well it was six yesterday.

    Three Red Wall Conservative MPs are in defection talks with Labour, The Telegraph can reveal.

    Labour sources told The Telegraph that the three male Conservatives, first elected in 2019, have entered formal discussions about crossing the floor to join Sir Keir Starmer’s party.

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.

    It is understood the three have felt dissatisfied with Boris Johnson’s leadership in recent weeks and were pushed towards the decision after a confidence vote in which 148 Tory MPs did not back the Prime Minister.

    One source who has spoken to the MPs said they were frustrated with the “ideological direction” of the Conservative Party.

    A second said talks with one Conservative were at initial stages, but another was in live discussions with the Labour whips’ office. The whips’ office declined to comment.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/27/exclusive-three-red-wall-conservatives-talks-defect-labour/

    Odd. If true, why would Labour leak it to the Telegraph?
    For the bit in bold - either to make any defectors look like selfish traitors, or to fire a shit across the bows at Boris, by being clear they are only contemplating it because he is no longer an electoral asset.
    Meant this bit, to be clear

    Those familiar with discussions said the MPs had slim majorities in Red Wall areas in the North that have historically voted Labour and believed they would lose their seats at the next election if they did not defect.
This discussion has been closed.