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The data the advocates of a “progressive alliance” ignore – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The number of Britons granted Irish citizenship has soared almost 1,200% since the UK voted to leave the EU in 2016, reports say https://trib.al/sRtrJkZ https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1541382294950248449/photo/1

    This keeps being trotted out every month or two.
    It’s 1,200 people per year, for some context behind the headline.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Sounds like a good start to a poem, that :wink:

    The philistine remoaner left
    unreconciled and left, bereft...
    There once was a Leaver called Leon
    Who said Europe made him a peon
    So he voted for Brexit
    Then ran for the exit
    And whined about woke for an aeon.
    That’s rather good

    Except for the clumsy second line
    There’s nothing wrong with the second line.
    I’d go with:

    Who said, “Europe made me a peon!”

    Makes the Leon in question sound even more of a twat.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Leon said:

    The last line at the end of Aubade:

    Postmen like doctors go from house to house

    … Is eerily like the 6 Bairstow hit at the end of the England innings today, clinching the Test series clean sweep

    He didn’t have to do it. The task was accomplished, a brilliant poem written, an excellent test match won, but both of them thought: fuck it, why not conclude with a gratuitous but marvellous flourish? That is genius

    Dates the poem though, as getting a doctor to actually come to your house is about as likely as Larkin voting for Corbyn.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Education Secretary to tell OCR exam board not to remove Wilfred Owen and Philip Larkin from the GCSE syllabus

    https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1539882196118511620?s=20&t=JsUPRV3iX3tU2ZWxIuONbg

    Politicians shouldn't dictate the precise content of school curricula. What next? Zahawi tells Mr Smith to reinstate the question about Oxbow lakes in the year 8 end of term geography exam? Education Secretary directs maths teachers to prioritise pentagons over hexagons in geometry?
    I mean, I am all for Philip Larkin - anyone whose work allows pupils to say Fuck at school and not get done for it is worthy of study in my view - but this is just absurd.
    The problem though appears to be that exam boards cannot be trusted to weigh these things up on literary merits rather than make it all about a particular political view and imposing non-literary judgments.

    Larkin is easily the most important post-war poet. Only Ted Hughes comes close I would
    say.

    Seamus Heaney?
    And about a half dozen Americans…

    Yes, Heaney. Of course. I meant UK poets - so no americans.
    Larkin is vastly better than Heaney

    Can anyone quote a single line of Heaney?

    No. He’s melodious and mellifluous but totally unmemorable

    Whereas Larkin belts out the zingers

    Almost every line in This Be The Verse is solid gold

    Then:

    What will survive of us is love

    The trees are coming into leaf; like something almost being said

    Begin afresh, afresh, afresh

    A serious house on serious earth it is

    I worK all day and get half drunk at night


    Indeed, I’d say Aubade is one of the finest poems ever written by anyone in any language. The greatest poetical examination of death, in existence. Chilling, but incredible

    AUBADE

    BY PHILIP LARKIN
    I work all day, and get half-drunk at night.
    Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare.
    In time the curtain-edges will grow light.
    Till then I see what’s really always there:
    Unresting death, a whole day nearer now,
    Making all thought impossible but how
    And where and when I shall myself die.
    Arid interrogation: yet the dread
    Of dying, and being dead,
    Flashes afresh to hold and horrify.

    The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse
    —The good not done, the love not given, time
    Torn off unused—nor wretchedly because
    An only life can take so long to climb
    Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never;
    But at the total emptiness for ever,
    The sure extinction that we travel to
    And shall be lost in always. Not to be here,
    Not to be anywhere,
    And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true.

    This is a special way of being afraid
    No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
    That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
    Created to pretend we never die,
    And specious stuff that says No rational being
    Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
    That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound,
    No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
    Nothing to love or link with,
    The anaesthetic from which none come round.

    And so it stays just on the edge of vision,
    A small unfocused blur, a standing chill
    That slows each impulse down to indecision.
    Most things may never happen: this one will,
    And realisation of it rages out
    In furnace-fear when we are caught without
    People or drink. Courage is no good:
    It means not scaring others. Being brave
    Lets no one off the grave.
    Death is no different whined at than withstood.

    Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape.
    It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know,
    Have always known, know that we can’t escape,
    Yet can’t accept. One side will have to go.
    Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring
    In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring
    Intricate rented world begins to rouse.
    The sky is white as clay, with no sun.
    Work has to be done.
    Postmen like doctors go from house to house.


    Agreed Aubade is stellar.

    And then there's

    "No, give me my in-tray,
    My loaf-haired secretary,
    My shall-I-keep-the-call-in-Sir:
    What else can I answer,

    When the lights come on at four
    At the end of another year?
    Give me your arm, old toad;
    Help me down Cemetery Road."

    Profoundly important materialist poet. This should be one of the reasons he is taught.

    Yes. Another reason he should be taught is that he is easily understood and pleasurable to hear. His poems rhyme, they are musical, he speaks in quite plain English, the best lines can be memorised. Almost anyone can read Aubade and understand instantly what Larkin means. Like Robert Frost (another great who should be taught)

    If you give kids Larkin they might then go on to explore more poetry, he’s the gateway drug of poetry

    Milton is more like LSD
    Larkin for me is less of a gateway. The trouble is he is so good that he exposes an awful lot of poets as both not having something interesting to say and not doing it very well either. And a lot of other poets as being 'too clever by half'.

    Incidentally there is just one Larkin poem I have never understood at all: 'Sympathy in White Major'. Is its meaning clear to everyone else?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,445
    Leon said:

    Ok, I think I'll come back once th

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, This was OCR’s box-ticking justification for taking out Larkin

    “The exam board described the new poems as “exciting and diverse”, adding: “Our anthology for GCSE English literature students will feature many poets that have never been on a GCSE syllabus before and represent diverse voices, from living poets of British-Somali, British-Guyanese and Ukrainian heritage to one of the first black women in 19th century America to publish a novel. Of the 15 poets whose work has been added, 14 are poets of colour. Six are black women, one is of South Asian heritage. Our new poets also include disabled and LGBTQ+ voices.””


    Is there a single poet there who is under 4 foot three? Where are quadriplegic Druze voices? I can’t see a single poet who is actually AI, nor anyone who is Chinese-Mexican sapiosexual kinkster genderfluid in a coma

    That's exactly where we're at right now, and how people are incentivised to act and think.

    Is it any surprise?
    I’m not surprised at all. Poetry is now rancidly Woke. I have poet friends - well-known left wing poet friends - who despair of it. Diversity is all, quality is entirely secondary. And I mean that literally

    Zahawi has maybe only just encountered it, so he IS surprised
    It makes sense though?

    I bet lots of people on the OCR don't agree with this either but they're obliged to do it. Because diversity policy and given where the Zeitgeist is right now there's a high risk that querying it leads to cancellation.

    So they do it but secretly hope that someone else in authority challenges them and rebukes them, whereupon they can shrug and say, "we tried" - cost-free.

    It's a game.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Somehow I doubt that an appreciation of poetry was a significant dividing line between Leavers and Remainers - and if it was, I doubt that it was Leavers who tended towards a higher appreciation of this particular literary artform. My mother, who is a poet, voted Remain.
    I note that the Poet Laureate declined a verse for the occasion.
    I guess he felt he'd covered it years before ?

    The future was a beautiful place, once.
    Remember the full-blown balsa-wood town
    on public display in the Civic Hall.
    The ring-bound sketches, artists’ impressions,

    blueprints of smoked glass and tubular steel,
    board-game suburbs, modes of transportation
    like fairground rides or executive toys.
    Cities like dreams, cantilevered by light.

    And people like us at the bottle-bank
    next to the cycle-path, or dog-walking
    over tended strips of fuzzy-felt grass,
    or model drivers, motoring home in

    electric cars, or after the late show -
    strolling the boulevard. They were the plans,
    all underwritten in the neat left-hand
    of architects – a true, legible script.

    I pulled that future out of the north wind
    at the landfill site, stamped with today’s date,
    riding the air with other such futures,
    all unlived in and now fully extinct.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Time plus strikes equals gap closing

    A week on, the public are split on their support for the rail worker strikes

    Support: 41% (+4 from June 21)
    Oppose: 45% (n/c)

    https://t.co/CeQ3FlcjJt https://t.co/JFZCjV1YTC
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited June 2022
    At least two dead and 20 injured, in Russian rocket attack on Ukranian shopping mall.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/27/ukraine-war-russia-news-live-updates-latest-cherkasy-putin-uk/

    Don’t let anyone forget this war is still going on, and Putin thinks supermarkets full of civilians are legitimate targets.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Westminster Voting Intention (26 June):

    Labour 41% (–)
    Conservative 33% (+1)
    Liberal Democrat 15% (+2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (-2)
    Other 1% (-1)

    Changes +/- 22 June

    https://t.co/XXj1fBj1sy https://t.co/OWgVPpZTm8
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Education Secretary to tell OCR exam board not to remove Wilfred Owen and Philip Larkin from the GCSE syllabus

    https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/1539882196118511620?s=20&t=JsUPRV3iX3tU2ZWxIuONbg

    Politicians shouldn't dictate the precise content of school curricula. What next? Zahawi tells Mr Smith to reinstate the question about Oxbow lakes in the year 8 end of term geography exam? Education Secretary directs maths teachers to prioritise pentagons over hexagons in geometry?
    I mean, I am all for Philip Larkin - anyone whose work allows pupils to say Fuck at school and not get done for it is worthy of study in my view - but this is just absurd.
    The problem though appears to be that exam boards cannot be trusted to weigh these things up on literary merits rather than make it all about a particular political view and imposing non-literary judgments.

    Larkin is easily the most important post-war poet. Only Ted Hughes comes close I would
    say.

    Seamus Heaney?
    And about a half dozen Americans…

    Yes, Heaney. Of course. I meant UK poets - so no americans.
    Larkin is vastly better than Heaney

    Can anyone quote a single line of Heaney?

    No. He’s melodious and mellifluous but totally unmemorable

    Whereas Larkin belts out the zingers

    Almost every line in This Be The Verse is solid gold

    Then:

    What will survive of us is love

    The trees are coming into leaf; like something almost being said

    Begin afresh, afresh, afresh

    A serious house on serious earth it is

    I worK all day and get half drunk at night


    Indeed, I’d say Aubade is one of the finest poems ever written by anyone in any language. The greatest poetical examination of death, in existence. Chilling, but incredible

    AUBADE

    BY PHILIP LARKIN
    I work all day, and get half-drunk at night.
    Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare.
    In time the curtain-edges will grow light.
    Till then I see what’s really always there:
    Unresting death, a whole day nearer now,
    Making all thought impossible but how
    And where and when I shall myself die.
    Arid interrogation: yet the dread
    Of dying, and being dead,
    Flashes afresh to hold and horrify.

    The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse
    —The good not done, the love not given, time
    Torn off unused—nor wretchedly because
    An only life can take so long to climb
    Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never;
    But at the total emptiness for ever,
    The sure extinction that we travel to
    And shall be lost in always. Not to be here,
    Not to be anywhere,
    And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true.

    This is a special way of being afraid
    No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
    That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
    Created to pretend we never die,
    And specious stuff that says No rational being
    Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
    That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound,
    No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
    Nothing to love or link with,
    The anaesthetic from which none come round.

    And so it stays just on the edge of vision,
    A small unfocused blur, a standing chill
    That slows each impulse down to indecision.
    Most things may never happen: this one will,
    And realisation of it rages out
    In furnace-fear when we are caught without
    People or drink. Courage is no good:
    It means not scaring others. Being brave
    Lets no one off the grave.
    Death is no different whined at than withstood.

    Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape.
    It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know,
    Have always known, know that we can’t escape,
    Yet can’t accept. One side will have to go.
    Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring
    In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring
    Intricate rented world begins to rouse.
    The sky is white as clay, with no sun.
    Work has to be done.
    Postmen like doctors go from house to house.


    Agreed Aubade is stellar.

    And then there's

    "No, give me my in-tray,
    My loaf-haired secretary,
    My shall-I-keep-the-call-in-Sir:
    What else can I answer,

    When the lights come on at four
    At the end of another year?
    Give me your arm, old toad;
    Help me down Cemetery Road."

    Profoundly important materialist poet. This should be one of the reasons he is taught.

    Yes. Another reason he should be taught is that he is easily understood and pleasurable to hear. His poems rhyme, they are musical, he speaks in quite plain English, the best lines can be memorised. Almost anyone can read Aubade and understand instantly what Larkin means. Like Robert Frost (another great who should be taught)

    If you give kids Larkin they might then go on to explore more poetry, he’s the gateway drug of poetry

    Milton is more like LSD
    Larkin for me is less of a gateway. The trouble is he is so good that he exposes an awful lot of poets as both not having something interesting to say and not doing it very well either. And a lot of other poets as being 'too clever by half'.

    Incidentally there is just one Larkin poem I have never understood at all: 'Sympathy in White Major'. Is its meaning clear to everyone else?
    Certainly wasn't a gateway for me because I read Aubade and was so upset I couldn't face another one for years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    MISTY said:
    Trump's fascist state takes a step closer.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Cyclefree said:

    Damn and blast! Daughter and Husband have both caught Covid. His second bout and her first. Just as she is about to start a new job too. Damn damn damn.

    I am confined to London, being at high risk.

    I hope they will be ok. Not that there is anything I can do for them.

    Bloody Covid!!

    Sorry to hear that. Nothing is ever certain in life, but the vast, vast majority of people who have had covid this year have been fine, especially the young ones like your daughter and her husband. Fingers crossed.
  • Interesting header, though I suspect the figures might be different in 2022. Do we have the reverse figures for Lab transfers?

    My impression from the last (2019) multi-candidate ward election where I was a candidate was that 2/3 of the Lab vote also went to the LD candidate in our 2-member ward, while half the LD vote also went to me (there was no explicit endorsement either way, but just the two of us for 2 Tory seats). Most of the balance in both parties abstained on their second vote - just a small sprinkling went Conservative.

    My guess is that it will go up to 75% and 66% when we're up again next year - familiarity and observation that we are working well together.

    I don't know where to find the stats for PCC elections although, for London Mayoral, the Tories would have got 77k of Khan supporters' second choices, Lib Dems 129k and Greens 322k.

    Women's Equality would have got 46k, Niko Omilana (a prominent 'influencer', m'lud) an eyebrow-raising 39k, and Rejoin EU 33k. 130k understandably didn't bother, and 30k went for Count Binface for sh1ts and giggles. Scattered/small numbers below that.

    That's not good for the Lib Dems, but still far more than to the Tories, and progressives more broadly (including Greens, crucially) were miles ahead of right wing candidates with Khan second choices.

    However, worth noting that it was a very poor mayoral election for the Lib Dems (4.4% of first preference, well behind the Greens) and they just weren't seen to be involved at all in large parts of the capital. They did a bit better in the Assembly elections, and quite well in SW London in that. But they just weren't in the minds of many Labour voters. Most Labour voters also presumably knew their second choice was meaningless - it was inconceivable Khan wouldn't make the top two (hence the level of spoiled ballots, Binface etc). In an election where Labour stood aside for the Lib Dems in a seat in a progressive alliance, it would inevitably be somewhere that the Lib Dems were active and well supported.

    I looked for the second choice breakdown in Watford (which the Lib Dems won) and Cambridgeshire & Peterborough where they were a pretty good third (had they pipped Labour for second, they'd probably have won the whole thing). That would probably be a better measure. But couldn't find them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    Leon said:

    The last line at the end of Aubade:

    Postmen like doctors go from house to house

    … Is eerily like the 6 Bairstow hit at the end of the England innings today, clinching the Test series clean sweep

    He didn’t have to do it. The task was accomplished, a brilliant poem written, an excellent test match won, but both of them thought: fuck it, why not conclude with a gratuitous but marvellous flourish? That is genius

    Dates the poem though, as getting a doctor to actually come to your house is about as likely as Larkin voting for Corbyn.
    A memory Larkin shares with Heaney - for whom 'All of us came in Doctor Kerlin's bag'.

  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:
    Trump's fascist state takes a step closer.
    He may not even run.

    Maybe the Dems will get some swing back from Roe v Wade / gun control?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Hmmm.

    Congressional generic ballot, Marist

    April
    Republican 47%
    Democratic 44%

    June
    Democratic 48%
    Republican 41%

    A 10-point swing to the Democrats post-Dobbs

    https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1541385731972669443
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Theresa May is up for this. Clearly trying to catch the Dep Speaker's eye.
    Feels like she might put down a marker and warn @trussliz she may oppose this NIreland Protocol Bill

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541452146243141632
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    As Boris Johnson battles tensions at home within the Tories, he misses out on his G-7 moment with US President Joe Biden https://trib.al/4IqpUDn
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Yet another one - how many is this now?

    “Serving Met Police Officer Charged With Sexual Assault”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-61955044
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    Damn and blast! Daughter and Husband have both caught Covid. His second bout and her first. Just as she is about to start a new job too. Damn damn damn.

    I am confined to London, being at high risk.

    I hope they will be ok. Not that there is anything I can do for them.

    Bloody Covid!!

    Sorry to hear that. Nothing is ever certain in life, but the vast, vast majority of people who have had covid this year have been fine, especially the young ones like your daughter and her husband. Fingers crossed.
    My husband. Her father.

    But thank you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Nigelb said:

    Hmmm.

    Congressional generic ballot, Marist

    April
    Republican 47%
    Democratic 44%

    June
    Democratic 48%
    Republican 41%

    A 10-point swing to the Democrats post-Dobbs

    https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1541385731972669443

    Well now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_xP said:

    As Boris Johnson battles tensions at home within the Tories, he misses out on his G-7 moment with US President Joe Biden https://trib.al/4IqpUDn

    Says he failed to show at an infrastructure event.

    He’s probably just woken up in his own drool, with seventeen missed called on his phone.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The "oven ready" deal rides again...

    Liz Truss: 'Once this is enacted we can draw a line under this issue and unleash the full potential of our relationship. We want to work with the EU for the betterment not just of Europe but the world and to focus all our efforts on tackling external threats like Putin’s Russia.'
    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1541453007509913600
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 114
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Sounds like a good start to a poem, that :wink:

    The philistine remoaner left
    unreconciled and left, bereft...
    There once was a Leaver called Leon
    Who said Europe made him a peon
    So he voted for Brexit
    Then ran for the exit
    And whined about woke for an aeon.
    That’s rather good

    Except for the clumsy second line
    I'd rewrite the first two lines as:

    A disconsolate Leaver called Leon
    Said Europe had made him a peon

    sorry.



  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,797
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Somehow I doubt that an appreciation of poetry was a significant dividing line between Leavers and Remainers - and if it was, I doubt that it was Leavers who tended towards a higher appreciation of this particular literary artform. My mother, who is a poet, voted Remain.
    I note that the Poet Laureate declined a verse for the occasion.
    I guess he felt he'd covered it years before ?

    The future was a beautiful place, once.
    Remember the full-blown balsa-wood town
    on public display in the Civic Hall.
    The ring-bound sketches, artists’ impressions,

    blueprints of smoked glass and tubular steel,
    board-game suburbs, modes of transportation
    like fairground rides or executive toys.
    Cities like dreams, cantilevered by light.

    And people like us at the bottle-bank
    next to the cycle-path, or dog-walking
    over tended strips of fuzzy-felt grass,
    or model drivers, motoring home in

    electric cars, or after the late show -
    strolling the boulevard. They were the plans,
    all underwritten in the neat left-hand
    of architects – a true, legible script.

    I pulled that future out of the north wind
    at the landfill site, stamped with today’s date,
    riding the air with other such futures,
    all unlived in and now fully extinct.
    I find Simon Artmitage a particularly satisfying writer of prose.
    He can write so clearly and so satisfyingly and so well when he writes in prose - says what he means and means what he says; but does so amusingly and lucidly and vividly - that I find his poetry doubly frustrating. It's just a mish-mash of words. His point would be so much better expressed as a short essay.

    In general, I'm with Bev C on poetry.

    I do enjoy John Hegley though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, This was OCR’s box-ticking justification for taking out Larkin

    “The exam board described the new poems as “exciting and diverse”, adding: “Our anthology for GCSE English literature students will feature many poets that have never been on a GCSE syllabus before and represent diverse voices, from living poets of British-Somali, British-Guyanese and Ukrainian heritage to one of the first black women in 19th century America to publish a novel. Of the 15 poets whose work has been added, 14 are poets of colour. Six are black women, one is of South Asian heritage. Our new poets also include disabled and LGBTQ+ voices.””


    Is there a single poet there who is under 4 foot three? Where are quadriplegic Druze voices? I can’t see a single poet who is actually AI, nor anyone who is Chinese-Mexican sapiosexual kinkster genderfluid in a coma

    Particularly amusing that they took out Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen in order to promote LGBTQ+ voices.

    Hah yes. They also took out Keats, who was London working class, about 2 foot seven, impoverished, and died at 25 of Consumption


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damn and blast! Daughter and Husband have both caught Covid. His second bout and her first. Just as she is about to start a new job too. Damn damn damn.

    I am confined to London, being at high risk.

    I hope they will be ok. Not that there is anything I can do for them.

    Bloody Covid!!

    Sorry to hear that. Nothing is ever certain in life, but the vast, vast majority of people who have had covid this year have been fine, especially the young ones like your daughter and her husband. Fingers crossed.
    My husband. Her father.

    But thank you.
    AH - that wasn't clear but I see now! But yes - best wishes to both.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    IshmaelZ said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, Aubade by Larkin is a killer killer poem. To say it 'speaks to me' would be totally wrong because what it does is the dead opposite, it goes into my head, cuts through all the noise in there and describes the essence of what lies beneath all that noise to absolute perfection. It made me feel sick as a parrot and high as a kite at the same time when I first read it. That's how good it is.

    Aubade is also a chain of bathroom and sanitary ware stores in France, which has always given them an unintended morbid quality.
    The poem was originally called Armitage Shanks, but he changed it to sound more sophisticated.
    I had an ex racehorse called Autumn Fantasy which I always thought was the colour of a down market bathroom suite. For those who didn't fancy the Avocado.
    Only the groom and the groom's boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    BREXIT IS DONE !!!!!

    Parliament is about to debate the UK's plan to override the Brexit deal with the EU -- let's see how many Tory MPs speak against it... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/brexit-returns-to-uk-parliament-at-awkward-moment-for-johnson?sref=yMmXm5Iy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited June 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Hmmm.

    Congressional generic ballot, Marist

    April
    Republican 47%
    Democratic 44%

    June
    Democratic 48%
    Republican 41%

    A 10-point swing to the Democrats post-Dobbs

    https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1541385731972669443

    Well now.
    Worth a small punt laying the Republican majority (both House & Senate) on Betfair ?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    I see some of the hand wringing public health lobby are pushing for another Covid booster (for younger adults too) in the autumn.

    Are they not seeing all their friends and family getting Covid and recovering? 95% of my mates have had it in the past 6 months. Bizarrely I haven't - which seems statistically unlikely so I suspect and I have and it hasn't even registered...

    Seems bonkers to disrupt things for another booster campaign in light of this...

    Why disrupt things for a booster campaign?

    Just have the booster campaign, to avoid disruption. Yes people are getting Covid and recovering, but if they're doing so because the vaccine is working, then that could be a good justification for renewing the booster if required.

    I'm happy to get a jab every year if that is what is needed to remain protected, but I'm not happy to have any more disruptions.
    I know several docs who are only doing jabs. Because it is incredibly lucrative.

    I'd quite like the worried well, maybe under 50s and with no health conditions, to be charged for future boosters...
    In the US, doctors have no role in giving jabs, it's entirely pharmacies.
    Sorry, that is incorrect. For example, yours truly has now been jabbed four times vs. COVID, and not once at a pharmacy.

    Instead, got all of mine via my regular health provider, as did hundreds of others on the days I was shot (in manner of speaking).

    It is true that these jabs were all administered by nurses, though sure there was a doctor handy if needed (was in a huge medical clinic/hospital).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Somehow I doubt that an appreciation of poetry was a significant dividing line between Leavers and Remainers - and if it was, I doubt that it was Leavers who tended towards a higher appreciation of this particular literary artform. My mother, who is a poet, voted Remain.
    Poets tend to be right wing, sometimes far right. So they will be Leavers

    Playwrights are more likely to be Left: Remainers, I bet @Beibheirli_C, like most of you Remainers, loves The Mousetrap and Les Mis

    Novelists can’t decide; they merely observe
    I can think of one poet born in Coventry and pre-eminently cancellable who would have voted leave if 'the only end of age' hadn't come along too soon.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,632
    Scott_xP said:

    BREXIT IS DONE !!!!!

    Parliament is about to debate the UK's plan to override the Brexit deal with the EU -- let's see how many Tory MPs speak against it... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/brexit-returns-to-uk-parliament-at-awkward-moment-for-johnson?sref=yMmXm5Iy

    When the EU talks about changing the treaties, do you mock them for integration not being 'done'?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Cookie said:



    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Poetry is bunk. A waste of good trees.

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL

    The Philistine Remoaner Left
    Somehow I doubt that an appreciation of poetry was a significant dividing line between Leavers and Remainers - and if it was, I doubt that it was Leavers who tended towards a higher appreciation of this particular literary artform. My mother, who is a poet, voted Remain.
    I note that the Poet Laureate declined a verse for the occasion.
    I guess he felt he'd covered it years before ?

    The future was a beautiful place, once.
    Remember the full-blown balsa-wood town
    on public display in the Civic Hall.
    The ring-bound sketches, artists’ impressions,

    blueprints of smoked glass and tubular steel,
    board-game suburbs, modes of transportation
    like fairground rides or executive toys.
    Cities like dreams, cantilevered by light.

    And people like us at the bottle-bank
    next to the cycle-path, or dog-walking
    over tended strips of fuzzy-felt grass,
    or model drivers, motoring home in

    electric cars, or after the late show -
    strolling the boulevard. They were the plans,
    all underwritten in the neat left-hand
    of architects – a true, legible script.

    I pulled that future out of the north wind
    at the landfill site, stamped with today’s date,
    riding the air with other such futures,
    all unlived in and now fully extinct.
    I find Simon Artmitage a particularly satisfying writer of prose.
    He can write so clearly and so satisfyingly and so well when he writes in prose - says what he means and means what he says; but does so amusingly and lucidly and vividly - that I find his poetry doubly frustrating. It's just a mish-mash of words. His point would be so much better expressed as a short essay...
    That's not entirely unfair.
    Though it does sound rather good when he reads it himself.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The intellectually bankrupt shift from ‘Brexit will make your life better’ to ‘I don’t care that Brexit has made your life worse because sovereignty/democracy/freedom’ was always going to happen. Once again, there’s no particular skill to predicting the contortions of imbeciles.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1541452230171271169
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    Nigelb said:

    For all the talk of "the US Constitution is shit" we've had over the last day or so, it embodies an idea of individual rights essential to the self conception of the United States.
    The Dobbs opinion, and its dismissal of unenumerated rights, puts quite a lot of that at risk.

    If the Supreme Court sets its sights on Griswold v. Connecticut, they won't just target pills or rubbers. They'd destroy a fundamental constitutional right under the Ninth Amendment.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a40432279/supreme-court-griswold-v-connecticut-contraception-privacy/
    ...All that being said, can folks please stop referring to the decision in Griswold v. Connecticut as having been "about contraception"? Griswold confirmed the existence of a right to privacy within the Constitution. That's everything. It's about marriage. It's about sex. It's about what we read. It's about how we communicate with each other. It's about the limits to search and seizure. It's about medical records and genetic information. It's about libraries and the internet. It’s about what we learn and how we learn it. It’s all tied in together in a fervent prayer to keep us all safe from, as Thomas Jefferson put it, “every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” As Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg put it in his Griswold concurrence:

    "...as the Ninth Amendment expressly recognizes, there are fundamental personal rights such as this one, which are protected from abridgment by the Government though not specifically mentioned in the Constitution.”...

    Yes. It might be hard to structure - and representative democracy via free and fair voting of the people rules ok - but for some things in life to be untouchable by elected politicians is imo a great aspiration.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    Nigelb said:

    Hmmm.

    Congressional generic ballot, Marist

    April
    Republican 47%
    Democratic 44%

    June
    Democratic 48%
    Republican 41%

    A 10-point swing to the Democrats post-Dobbs

    https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1541385731972669443


    The SCOTUS’ terrible decision could deprive the GOP of the midterms and the presidency, when they were almost nailed on

    It might also prevent Trump 2024
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Scott_xP said:

    BREXIT IS DONE !!!!!

    Parliament is about to debate the UK's plan to override the Brexit deal with the EU -- let's see how many Tory MPs speak against it... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/brexit-returns-to-uk-parliament-at-awkward-moment-for-johnson?sref=yMmXm5Iy

    When the EU talks about changing the treaties, do you mock them for integration not being 'done'?
    The EU talks about changing internal treaties with discussions and input from all people party to the treaty.

    Here the UK is trying to unilaterally change a treaty without any discussion with the other party to the treaty.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Scott_xP said:

    The intellectually bankrupt shift from ‘Brexit will make your life better’ to ‘I don’t care that Brexit has made your life worse because sovereignty/democracy/freedom’ was always going to happen. Once again, there’s no particular skill to predicting the contortions of imbeciles.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1541452230171271169

    James O’Brien opposed to Brexit? Calling people “imbeciles”? Say it ain’t so?!??
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,445
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, This was OCR’s box-ticking justification for taking out Larkin

    “The exam board described the new poems as “exciting and diverse”, adding: “Our anthology for GCSE English literature students will feature many poets that have never been on a GCSE syllabus before and represent diverse voices, from living poets of British-Somali, British-Guyanese and Ukrainian heritage to one of the first black women in 19th century America to publish a novel. Of the 15 poets whose work has been added, 14 are poets of colour. Six are black women, one is of South Asian heritage. Our new poets also include disabled and LGBTQ+ voices.””


    Is there a single poet there who is under 4 foot three? Where are quadriplegic Druze voices? I can’t see a single poet who is actually AI, nor anyone who is Chinese-Mexican sapiosexual kinkster genderfluid in a coma

    Particularly amusing that they took out Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen in order to promote LGBTQ+ voices.

    Hah yes. They also took out Keats, who was London working class, about 2 foot seven, impoverished, and died at 25 of Consumption


    Fuck me, I love Keats.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Hmm.. I wonder how many Tories are deeply uncomfortable with the current debate on the NI protocol
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Applicant said:

    Well, I've spent most of today in the beach (air temp 30, water temp 25 - delightful) so I'm not going to let the mood be spoiled by one of Scotty's brainless regurgitations.


    Scott 'n Paste sometimes makes this Remainer want to join the dark side. I wish there were a 'mute' button on this thing.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The intellectually bankrupt shift from ‘Brexit will make your life better’ to ‘I don’t care that Brexit has made your life worse because sovereignty/democracy/freedom’ was always going to happen. Once again, there’s no particular skill to predicting the contortions of imbeciles.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1541452230171271169

    James O’Brien opposed to Brexit? Calling people “imbeciles”? Say it ain’t so?!??
    Tbf, he should know.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    DougSeal said:

    Applicant said:

    Well, I've spent most of today in the beach (air temp 30, water temp 25 - delightful) so I'm not going to let the mood be spoiled by one of Scotty's brainless regurgitations.


    Scott 'n Paste sometimes makes this Remainer want to join the dark side. I wish there were a 'mute' button on this thing.
    DougSeal said:

    Applicant said:

    Well, I've spent most of today in the beach (air temp 30, water temp 25 - delightful) so I'm not going to let the mood be spoiled by one of Scotty's brainless regurgitations.


    Scott 'n Paste sometimes makes this Remainer want to join the dark side. I wish there were a 'mute' button on this thing.
    The really sad thing is that @Scott_xP used to be a sane, intelligent commenter with a variety of opinions, IIRC

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    I find his utter distaste for brexit compelling him to post every anti Brexit comment and tweet rather sad, as there is far more to life

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    Pigsh*t is useful....
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    Hmm.. I wonder how many Tories are deeply uncomfortable with the current debate on the NI protocol

    Let me guess: bloody paddies and continental types would do well to remember their place and Boris is fantastic.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Three and a half years on, we are well on our way to the dysfunction of the 70s. But the Brexiters, who actively wanted to return to the 70s and argued “we managed before the EU”, are now claiming this regression, which was their EXPLICIT Brexit goal, has nothing to with Brexit. https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1541458289845800961/photo/1
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Raducanu takes set 1
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    Liz Truss is a less-than-reliable support, esp. in cases of rupture due to over-energetic contortions
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 2022
    The redfield poll is an as you were which features hilarious welsh and scots sub samples ;)
    Bozo closes the gap to 35 - 37 on best PM, so within MoE of Opinium now. 'Best on' sees Boris with better scores on covid and foreign policy, starmer ahead on most others, economy within 4 points 'at the moment.'
    One interesting data set Bojo job approval -24, government competency -34. Starmer -5 (both 29 approve)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    Montenegro is fantastic. Or at least Kotor is (despite the tourist hordes in the old town)

    The days are scorching - 35C - yet the combination of stark high karst landscape and these deep Nordic fjords means the air is savoured with pines and brine. It’s a magically sunkissed Norway, raked by black shadows




  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Watching Commons debate Protocol Bill is a surreal study in the state of British politics.

    Loud distortion on Protocol, despite NI indicators being better than GB.

    Thundering, Orwellian silence on Brexit itself, as the UK languishes alongside Russia in economic forecasts.

    https://twitter.com/MatthewOToole2/status/1541459426045054978
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,523
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway my two favourite poems are:

    1. The Owl and the Pussycat, which I used to recite to the children when they were little at bedtime.
    2. An Irish Airman Foresees His Death.

    I know that I shall meet my fate
    Somewhere among the clouds above;
    Those that I fight I do not hate,
    Those that I guard I do not love;
    My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before.
    Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
    Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
    A lonely impulse of delight
    Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
    I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death.

    I love the Lake Isle of Innisfree and The Second Coming by him too.

    Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress is a marvel too.

    I love poetry. It's music through words.

    Yeats is sublime. I don't care if he was British, Irish or Cantonese. His lyrical imagery is just fabulous. It is no surprise that so many of his poems have later been set to music.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    Scott_xP said:

    Selebian said:

    I had little time for poetry before we covered Owen at school; that got me into the war poets and then on to some of the other well known ones from 20th century and earlier.

    Owen and others convalesced in Edinburgh for a while.

    There is a plaque on a housing development built on the site of a golf course clubhouse that says 3 of them met there once. It doesn't say why...
    https://www.napier.ac.uk/about-us/our-location/our-campuses/special-collections/outreach-and-events/wilfred-owens-edinburgh/edinburghs-war-poets-corner-unveiled-in-juniper-green
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Just as well the SC has no ethics rules.
    He might otherwise have to declare an interest.

    Clarence Thomas signals interest in making it easier to sue media
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3538084-clarence-thomas-signals-interest-in-making-it-easier-to-sue-media/
  • Scott_xP said:

    The intellectually bankrupt shift from ‘Brexit will make your life better’ to ‘I don’t care that Brexit has made your life worse because sovereignty/democracy/freedom’ was always going to happen. Once again, there’s no particular skill to predicting the contortions of imbeciles.
    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1541452230171271169

    there’s no particular skill to pasting this crap from Twitter either is there, nor to predicting its viewpoint.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Simon Hoare, chair of NI affairs committee now on his feet.

    "There are many ways to achieve achieve change. But this bill is not quite one of them".
    "It is not a well thought out bill, it's not a good bill, it's not a constitutional bill." "This bill is failure of statecraft"

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460215748599811
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Is the bill "a muscle flex for a future leadership bid" Hoare asks of Liz Truss's Northern Ireland protocol bill.
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460767186247686
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,445
    Leon said:

    Montenegro is fantastic. Or at least Kotor is (despite the tourist hordes in the old town)

    The days are scorching - 35C - yet the combination of stark high karst landscape and these deep Nordic fjords means the air is savoured with pines and brine. It’s a magically sunkissed Norway, raked by black shadows




    Ah, cruise ships - that explains the hordes.

    Move inland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Leon said:

    Montenegro is fantastic. Or at least Kotor is (despite the tourist hordes in the old town)

    The days are scorching - 35C - yet the combination of stark high karst landscape and these deep Nordic fjords means the air is savoured with pines and brine. It’s a magically sunkissed Norway, raked by black shadows




    Ah, cruise ships - that explains the hordes.

    Move inland.
    That’s the likely source of the hundreds of Americans spotted in town earlier.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Scott_xP said:

    Is the bill "a muscle flex for a future leadership bid" Hoare asks of Liz Truss's Northern Ireland protocol bill.
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460767186247686

    Most of us have Twitter accounts. We don't need you to come in here and post this stuff. Can you imagine what PB would be like if we all did this? It's boring, worse its annoyingly boring.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
    I find it incredibly lazy to cut and paste Twitter posts in lieu of an actual opinion. Not you of course.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094

    Nigelb said:

    Hmmm.

    Congressional generic ballot, Marist

    April
    Republican 47%
    Democratic 44%

    June
    Democratic 48%
    Republican 41%

    A 10-point swing to the Democrats post-Dobbs

    https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1541385731972669443

    Well now.
    Long way to the mid term elections, need to keep up the fury.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Very good @AntonSpisak piece for @CER_EU on why the UK Government's approach to the Protocol is so counter-productive, in fact it might actually, contrary to UK professions, leave NI more divided, not less.

    https://www.cer.eu/insights/four-reasons-why-uk-nireland-protocol-bill-mistake https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1541462594858483712/photo/1
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Leon said:

    Montenegro is fantastic. Or at least Kotor is (despite the tourist hordes in the old town)

    The days are scorching - 35C - yet the combination of stark high karst landscape and these deep Nordic fjords means the air is savoured with pines and brine. It’s a magically sunkissed Norway, raked by black shadows




    Ah, cruise ships - that explains the hordes.

    Move inland.
    I concur. With caveat that if it's bearable, even pleasant on the coast today, gonna be like a blast furnace in the interior.

    Indeed, current Montenegro weather conditions

    > Kotor = temp 86F, humidity 53%, sunny, wind 3mph
    > Podgorica = temp 95F, humidity 35%, sunny, wind 7mph
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    That invocation of patriotism as a justification for the bill didn't go down well with NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare who asks if Liz Truss is "impugning the patriotism" of those who have concerns. He calls it a "false conflation".
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541450932327780353

    I call it incredibly lazy. When you're reduced to throwing out that accusation so swiftly, you know you are struggling.

    Sure, people inpugned the patriotism of Corbyn (and by association those who served under him), but even with him they didn't make that the sole criticism.
    I'm all for posting stuff from twitter, but including a comment alongside it adds value.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Scott_xP said:

    BREXIT IS DONE !!!!!

    Parliament is about to debate the UK's plan to override the Brexit deal with the EU -- let's see how many Tory MPs speak against it... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/brexit-returns-to-uk-parliament-at-awkward-moment-for-johnson?sref=yMmXm5Iy

    When the EU talks about changing the treaties, do you mock them for integration not being 'done'?
    Of course not. FBPE remain are the craziest of all the Brexit tribes.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia


    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    I started it. It was quite good...what I managed to read of it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is the bill "a muscle flex for a future leadership bid" Hoare asks of Liz Truss's Northern Ireland protocol bill.
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1541460767186247686

    Most of us have Twitter accounts. We don't need you to come in here and post this stuff. Can you imagine what PB would be like if we all did this? It's boring, worse its annoyingly boring.
    To be honest I just cannot be bothered with him and he is only irritating many who may otherwise be amenable to a sensible discussion on brexit

    Furthermore, for all his fury the political establishment are not seeking to rejoin and both Starmer and Lammy even went as far as to say Labour will not rejoin the single market

    It seems we could be in for years of his tweets going nowhere
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Well, if the thread header is wrong, the Progressive Alliance (Lab/LD subsection) is at 56%. Wonder if we’ll see the LDs at 20%?

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Westminster Voting Intention (26 June):

    Labour 41% (–)
    Conservative 33% (+1)
    Liberal Democrat 15% (+2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 4% (–)
    Reform UK 3% (-2)
    Other 1% (-1)


    https://mobile.twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1541451338151780352

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
    She's not now.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
    I have a suspicion Johnson wants it to die in the Lords to have someone to blame without actually taking action.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,445
    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
    He has certainly lost a lot of it but seems his mps are not yet at a majority to overthrow him

    Hopefully that will change quite soon
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
    Bill fails then Boris falls and sanity is allowed back? One can hope.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    China is at highest combat/troop readiness since ww2
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
    She's not now.
    She accepted the vote of the people.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MP & NI Committee Chair Simon Hoare says the reputation of his party & his country are "in peril". Adds that if a Labour govt was proposing this protocol bill the Tories would be saying they are a "party not fit for govt". Says it's "shameful" that he has to point this out.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1541462829043154947

    Wow. I can see this bill not getting passed if Hoare's reaction is any indicator. Boris has lost the Tory Party.
    Bill fails then Boris falls and sanity is allowed back? One can hope.
    I would hope 181 of his MP's will act this summer
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    After @trussliz is reminded by @hilarybennmp that she voted Remain, she replies:
    The reason I'm proposing this bill "is because I'm a patriot and I'm a democrat".

    NI Cttee chairman
    @Simon4NDorset points our that sounded like those who oppose her are not patriots


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1541450793349533696

    Just heard her on R4 PM. Is it me, or is she as thick as pig***t, or am I doing pig**** a disservice?
    She was a remainer so can’t be.
    She's not now.
    She accepted the vote of the people.
    Why on earth would she do that? Most MPs didn’t...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Here's a few lines from a great poem in muscular English to enjoy on a hot, sunny day:

    THE CREMATION OF SAM MCGEE
    Robert W. Service

    There are strange things done in the midnight sun
    By the men who moil for gold;
    The Arctic trails have their secret tales
    That would make your blood run cold;
    The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,
    But the queerest they ever did see
    Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge
    I cremated Sam McGee.

    Now Sam McGee was from Tennessee, where the cotton blooms and blows.
    Why he left his home in the South to roam 'round the Pole, God only knows.
    He was always cold, but the land of gold seemed to hold him like a spell;
    Though he'd often say in his homely way that "he'd sooner live in hell."

    SSI - Am hopeful that reference to "queer sights" and "the queerest" will ensure that this classic will continue to grace literary anthologies far into the current century & millennia!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    edited June 2022

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
    I wanted to read the Njegos book - after you recommended it - but it is not available on Kindle, as far as I can see, and Kotor is not full of English bookshops

    So if I want a good book on the Balkans I think Rebecca West is it. That IS on Kindle
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Wow. NATO to increase its high readiness troops from 40,000 to 300,000.

    That's bloody massive:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-massively-increase-high-readiness-forces-300000-stoltenberg-2022-06-27/

    China is at highest combat/troop readiness since ww2
    That seems questionable doesn't it? Surely the Korean War was a bigger crisis for them?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Getting back to Montenegro, and re: equation Montenegrins = Serbs (and visa versa) check out this wiki entry

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

    Saint Sava (Serbian: Свети Сава, romanized: Sveti Sava, pronounced [sʋɛ̂ːtiː sǎːʋa]; Old Church Slavonic: Свѧтъ Сава / ⰔⰂⰤⰕⰟ ⰔⰀⰂⰀ; Greek: Άγιος Σάββας; 1169 or 1174 – 14 January 1236), known as the Enlightener, was a Serbian prince and Orthodox monk, the first Archbishop of the autocephalous Serbian Church, the founder of Serbian law, and a diplomat. Sava, born as Rastko Nemanjić (Serbian Cyrillic: Растко Немањић), was the youngest son of Serbian Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (founder of the Nemanjić dynasty), and ruled the appanage of Zachlumia briefly in 1190–92. He then left for Mount Athos, where he became a monk with the name Sava (Sabbas). At Athos he established the monastery of Hilandar, which became one of the most important cultural and religious centres of the Serbian people. In 1219 the Patriarchate exiled in Nicea recognized him as the first Serbian Archbishop, and in the same year he authored the oldest known constitution of Serbia, the Zakonopravilo nomocanon, thus securing full independence; both religious and political. Sava is regarded as the founder of Serbian medieval literature.

    He is widely considered one of the most important figures of Serbian history. In fact, Sava is to the Serbs what Averroes is to the Muslims and Maimonides is to the Jews. Saint Sava is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox Church on January 27 [O.S. January 14]. Many artistic works from the Middle Ages to modern times have interpreted his career. He is the patron saint of Serbia, Serbs, and Serbian education. The Church of Saint Sava in Belgrade is dedicated to him, built where the Ottomans burnt his remains in 1594,[9] during an uprising in which Serbs used icons of Sava as their war flags; the church is one of the largest church buildings in the world.

    SSI - Entire question of relationship of Serbs & Montenegrins is HUGELY controversial, indeed is a burning issue in contemporary politics.

    Best NOT raised with local upon first acquaintance.

    OR subsequent UNLESS you are certain you are NOT stepping into a mine field.

    Leon - forsake the fleshpots (and wifi connections) of the Littoral, and hie yourself off to the hinterlands!

    I shall soon enough! But I’m enjoying some downtime after a lot of hard travel - all around Armenia and Georgia

    I’m thinking of tackling Rebecca West. The Falcon thingy

    Is it worth it? It’s got an amazing reputation but it is 1000 pages long!!
    Take your time, no rush!

    Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West is a true classic, and a must read for any semi-serious student of the Balkans (at least English-speaking students).

    That said, it is NOT for everyone, one of those books that, after 50 pages or so, you are either completely absorbed OR totally put-off.

    Give it a try! However, would suggest tackling Djilas first, as his Njegos biography is centered (naturally) on Montenegro but (of necessity) involves the Black Mountain's religious, ethnic & etc. connections & interactions with Serbia AND Russia.
    I wanted to read the Njegos book - after you recommended it - but it is not available on Kindle, as far as I can see, and Kotor is not full of English bookshops

    So if I want a good book on the Balkans I think Rebecca West is it. That IS on Kindle
    Is this any help?

    https://archive.org/details/njegospoetprince0000djil/page/n537/mode/2up
This discussion has been closed.