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Can that elusive CON poll lead come in June or July? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815

    Good Morning

    As some of you will know we have spent the weekend in Leeds viewing our granddaughter's new student accommodation and moving her into it

    We left on Saturday from Llandudno and travelled via the A55, M6, M62, and M60, and the traffic was dreadful throughout most of the journey. The area around the Thelwall Viaduct and interchange with the M62, in both directions, and especially southbound was near complete standstill and for most every road sign the rail strike dates with warnings not to travel were perfectly clear and in Wales were bilingual as you would expect

    Coming home yesterday was better as we returned by the east and south of Manchester along the M56 avoiding the Thelwell viaduct

    However, if this is how our motorways were last Saturday, how on earth the country avoids total travel paralysis this week I really do not know

    On the strikes themselves, it is at a time like this that I support a conservative government to look after taxpayers interests and not buckle to the strength of the public sector unions who will need to settle for a sensible pay increase which will no doubt be in the region of 4% or we face a summer of discontent which I believe may well strengthen HMG position

    We really do not need a class war and as I have said before, with the exception of the lower paid and vulnerable who do need support the rest of us are simply going to be poorer

    Good for nothing bankers get their bonuses, workers in safety-critical roles providing essential public services get a real-terms pay cut. Yes, that's the Conservative way.
    I am afraid that most everyone is facing a real term pay cut with inflation rising to 11%

    That is the reality of where we are
    You and I can weather the storm, there are a sizeable number of people out there who can't. The reality for many is inflation is running way ahead of the headline figures, and the lower down the pay scale one looks the worse it becomes.

    Still I guess everyone has a newspaper owner benefactor they can turn to for a leg up
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347

    EXCL: Ministers will this week change the law to allow striking workers to be replaced temporarily by agency staff.

    Too late for this week’s RMT strike but likely to be in force by mid-July

    Blackleg's charter? Given full employment, where are these staff to come from?
    Fancy coming out of retirement?
    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    Many jumpers...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It'll be fascinating to see the effects of the strike on the by-election results.

    I don't think it'll have much effect on the by-elections. But it helps the government move on from the results.

    My par expectations for both right now are a 13% swing in Wakefield, and a 5000 LD majority in T&H.
    Judging from the Guardian article yesterday, it really doesn’t seem like there is much enthusiasm for Starmer in Wakefield at all.

    I’m not betting on the Tories there (or T and H) as the mood music is hard to read but I get the impression Wakefield will be a low turnout Labour victory with a small minority and T and H a LD victory but less than 5K
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 1,723

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    I think we probably need a change to this kind of Parliamentary oversight so that it is performed by the judiciary, not the Parliamentarians themselves.

    The principle that parliamentary statements can always be taken on good faith, and that the House will severely sanction those who breach that protocol (as they cannot do their jobs if that is not the case) is gone. And with it the privilege to self-regulate.
  • MrEd said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It'll be fascinating to see the effects of the strike on the by-election results.

    I don't think it'll have much effect on the by-elections. But it helps the government move on from the results.

    My par expectations for both right now are a 13% swing in Wakefield, and a 5000 LD majority in T&H.
    Judging from the Guardian article yesterday, it really doesn’t seem like there is much enthusiasm for Starmer in Wakefield at all.

    I’m not betting on the Tories there (or T and H) as the mood music is hard to read but I get the impression Wakefield will be a low turnout Labour victory with a small minority and T and H a LD victory but less than 5K
    I read the same article, there is no enthusiasm for Starmer but there is hatred for Johnson in certain sections.

    I'm not betting on either, I think Tories hold Tiverton though
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,404
    edited June 20
    Once again I fear @Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157
    mwadams said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    I think we probably need a change to this kind of Parliamentary oversight so that it is performed by the judiciary, not the Parliamentarians themselves.

    The principle that parliamentary statements can always be taken on good faith, and that the House will severely sanction those who breach that protocol (as they cannot do their jobs if that is not the case) is gone. And with it the privilege to self-regulate.
    One for the ECHR perhaps......
  • So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    If not the Parliamentary authorities, then the “men in grey suits”.

    It’s the sort of thing over which I would expect to see Cabinet-level resignations, starting with the current Foreign Secretary.

    My views on the birthday cake are well known, as they are with the problems of pandemic PPE procurement - but this story is way over the line if it can be stood up.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,404

    MrEd said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It'll be fascinating to see the effects of the strike on the by-election results.

    I don't think it'll have much effect on the by-elections. But it helps the government move on from the results.

    My par expectations for both right now are a 13% swing in Wakefield, and a 5000 LD majority in T&H.
    Judging from the Guardian article yesterday, it really doesn’t seem like there is much enthusiasm for Starmer in Wakefield at all.

    I’m not betting on the Tories there (or T and H) as the mood music is hard to read but I get the impression Wakefield will be a low turnout Labour victory with a small minority and T and H a LD victory but less than 5K
    I think Tories hold Tiverton though
    It will be a crushing LibDem win
  • So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,520
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    If not the Parliamentary authorities, then the “men in grey suits”.

    It’s the sort of thing over which I would expect to see Cabinet-level resignations, starting with the current Foreign Secretary.

    Good to start the week off with a bit of humour!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,972
    edited June 20
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia
    Putin is not as overtly Islamophobic as, say, Navalny (other neo-liberal shitbags are available).

    He's a sporadic visitor to the Tartar Mosque on Olimpiyskiy Prospekt (I once got held up close to it on the way to a CSKA - Dinamo hockey game because of his motorcade) and his latest batch of kids are being raised as Muslims.

    He's got 15 million Muslim Russians that he can't afford to let get too restive...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,404

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN)
    Oh oops. Yes of course, silly me!

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051
    edited June 20
    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open. The offences committed were parking tickets.

    Getting your mistress a job, for which she’s otherwise unqualified, is straight-up corruption.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    If not the Parliamentary authorities, then the “men in grey suits”.

    It’s the sort of thing over which I would expect to see Cabinet-level resignations, starting with the current Foreign Secretary.

    My views on the birthday cake are well known, as they are with the problems of pandemic PPE procurement - but this story is way over the line if it can be stood up.
    Very naive. If any of the cabinet had the balls and strength for such a manoeuvre they would be promptly dispatched to the backbenches.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,045

    Good Morning

    As some of you will know we have spent the weekend in Leeds viewing our granddaughter's new student accommodation and moving her into it

    We left on Saturday from Llandudno and travelled via the A55, M6, M62, and M60, and the traffic was dreadful throughout most of the journey. The area around the Thelwall Viaduct and interchange with the M62, in both directions, and especially southbound was near complete standstill and for most every road sign the rail strike dates with warnings not to travel were perfectly clear and in Wales were bilingual as you would expect

    Coming home yesterday was better as we returned by the east and south of Manchester along the M56 avoiding the Thelwell viaduct

    However, if this is how our motorways were last Saturday, how on earth the country avoids total travel paralysis this week I really do not know

    On the strikes themselves, it is at a time like this that I support a conservative government to look after taxpayers interests and not buckle to the strength of the public sector unions who will need to settle for a sensible pay increase which will no doubt be in the region of 4% or we face a summer of discontent which I believe may well strengthen HMG position

    We really do not need a class war and as I have said before, with the exception of the lower paid and vulnerable who do need support the rest of us are simply going to be poorer

    You were unlucky, I drove from Abergavenny to Knottingley (15 miles east of Leeds) on Saturday morning. Left at 9am, which no doubt helped, but the 200 miles took me three and a bit hours, pretty much 70 all the way.
    I assume you did not travel over the Thelwall Viaduct
    Nope!
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,404
    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open.
    You weren't here so you don't know.

    You live over three thousand miles away in a rich Arab enclave. You really don't get how it was here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815
    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,714

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    The UK doesn't use much Russian gas I think ? Wasn't it 3% - I'd have thought we could live without it. Continental europe OTOH..
    One disruption that I think we would face is the likely diversion of some of the Norwegian supply we receive to continental Europe. But I think we have the LNG import capacity to compensate if we can pay the increased prices.
    I'm not sure how that would happen given contracts, but perhaps a.n.other can advise?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 476
    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Yeah, it sucks. As a diehard Remainer, a Eurofederalist even, it saddens me to say that this is necessary and a good move, politically.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051
    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open.
    You weren't here so you don't know.

    You live over three thousand miles away in a rich Arab enclave. You really don't get how it was here.
    Somewhere which had an actual lockdown. As in do not leave the house without advance permission from the police.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,225
    edited June 20

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
    Did they? I thought paid holiday leave was a legal requirement that came through the ballot box, rather than through industrial action. I've never joined a union, even when it was an option (apart from the Students Union, that's different) but I've always been entitled to holidays.

    If people are deserving of a better paid job, then they ought to be able to negotiate one, either with their current job or competitively in the market. If they aren't, then why should they get one, just because of industrial action?
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,774
    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    Windfall tax presumably and plenty of hot air about profiteering energy companies while doing nothing concrete on energy security. Labour will call for something, the Tories will decry it. Johnson will send hapless backbenchers out to attack it. A week later the Tories will do it and claim it was there idea all along.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,952

    Good Morning

    As some of you will know we have spent the weekend in Leeds viewing our granddaughter's new student accommodation and moving her into it

    We left on Saturday from Llandudno and travelled via the A55, M6, M62, and M60, and the traffic was dreadful throughout most of the journey. The area around the Thelwall Viaduct and interchange with the M62, in both directions, and especially southbound was near complete standstill and for most every road sign the rail strike dates with warnings not to travel were perfectly clear and in Wales were bilingual as you would expect

    Coming home yesterday was better as we returned by the east and south of Manchester along the M56 avoiding the Thelwell viaduct

    However, if this is how our motorways were last Saturday, how on earth the country avoids total travel paralysis this week I really do not know

    On the strikes themselves, it is at a time like this that I support a conservative government to look after taxpayers interests and not buckle to the strength of the public sector unions who will need to settle for a sensible pay increase which will no doubt be in the region of 4% or we face a summer of discontent which I believe may well strengthen HMG position

    We really do not need a class war and as I have said before, with the exception of the lower paid and vulnerable who do need support the rest of us are simply going to be poorer

    You were unlucky, I drove from Abergavenny to Knottingley (15 miles east of Leeds) on Saturday morning. Left at 9am, which no doubt helped, but the 200 miles took me three and a bit hours, pretty much 70 all the way.
    I assume you did not travel over the Thelwall Viaduct
    Nope!
    Brother and sister-in-law did similar trip to Mr G over the weekend and had a similar experience. Thelwall viaduct was awful!
    They were traveling Preston - Anglesey, so had little choice!
  • eekeek Posts: 20,662

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Well you can make it to university educated people who go on holiday abroad but I suspect no argument for FOM would play well in the Red Wall seats that Bozo won in 2019.

    Which is why it needs to be pulled from Labour's agenda so that some of the old Labour seats can return to Labour...
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,774
    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Well he has plenty of form of promising one thing when wanting to win and then ditching when he won. Look at what he promised when running for labour leader and how he has ditched and still continues to ditch those policies.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    Another report in that vein.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/06/putin-russian-history-nationalism-kyrgyzstan/661214/

    Have you ever visited ?
    Never visited, but that article makes me want to go. So I might. Everyone I know who has been says Kyrgyzstan is ravishingly beautiful, the loveliest of the Stans (and also small: so easy to get around)

    Hmm…
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,343
    Mr. Battery, is Starmer going to say what he's actually for, rather than against?
  • Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open.
    You weren't here so you don't know.

    You live over three thousand miles away in a rich Arab enclave. You really don't get how it was here.
    Somewhere which had an actual lockdown. As in do not leave the house without advance permission from the police.
    Sorry Sandpit, normally I agree with most things you say, but not on this one.

    The government stripping away your civil liberties without you having committed a crime absolutely is a lockdown. You may have had a more severe lockdown, but that's not to say we didn't either. It is wrong to normalise lockdowns by giving the state the power to say anything short of requiring permission to leave your home is a perfectly normal and perfectly justifiable state of affairs, it isn't.

    Your logic is like saying going to jail for six months in a British prison isn't incarceration because some people in other parts of the world go to jail in penal colonies with forced hard labour.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Is Streeting sensible? Good interviewee but doubt he could stand the scrutiny of being a party leader.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,511
    edited June 20
    MattW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    The UK doesn't use much Russian gas I think ? Wasn't it 3% - I'd have thought we could live without it. Continental europe OTOH..
    One disruption that I think we would face is the likely diversion of some of the Norwegian supply we receive to continental Europe. But I think we have the LNG import capacity to compensate if we can pay the increased prices.
    I'm not sure how that would happen given contracts, but perhaps a.n.other can advise?
    I believe single market rules for a gas market emergency would override contracts, or else the contracts would have a clause noting the possibility of being affected by such rules.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 16,472
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    No. A top job for Carrie is just Arcurigate all over again. Carrie did not get the job; people will move on, ironically because Boris is too chaotic even to get corruption right.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Is Streeting sensible? Good interviewee but doubt he could stand the scrutiny of being a party leader.
    I am going with the flow.

    I would pick Jess Phillips every day of the week. But then again I was a long-standing party member who voted for the wrong Milliband in 2010, and look where that got me and the party.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,746
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia
    Putin is not as overtly Islamophobic as, say, Navalny (other neo-liberal shitbags are available).

    He's a sporadic visitor to the Tartar Mosque on Olimpiyskiy Prospekt (I once got held up close to it on the way to a CSKA - Dinamo hockey game because of his motorcade) and his latest batch of kids are being raised as Muslims.

    He's got 15 million Muslim Russians that he can't afford to let get too restive...
    Hence the rather nice mosque in Grozny
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,774
    edited June 20
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    Another report in that vein.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/06/putin-russian-history-nationalism-kyrgyzstan/661214/

    Have you ever visited ?
    Never visited, but that article makes me want to go. So I might. Everyone I know who has been says Kyrgyzstan is ravishingly beautiful, the loveliest of the Stans (and also small: so easy to get around)

    Hmm…
    Avoid the Osh Valley.

    I did mention it to you the other week. Not been but on the basis of a Simon Reeve documentary and YouTube travelogues.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,774

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Is Streeting sensible? Good interviewee but doubt he could stand the scrutiny of being a party leader.
    I am going with the flow.

    I would pick Jess Phillips every day of the week. But then again I was a long-standing party member who voted for the wrong Milliband in 2010, and look where that got me and the party.
    She’s terrible. Comes over as pretty sulky when challenged. She’d be a Tory party strategists dream labour leader.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
    Did they? I thought paid holiday leave was a legal requirement that came through the ballot box, rather than through industrial action. I've never joined a union, even when it was an option (apart from the Students Union, that's different) but I've always been entitled to holidays.

    If people are deserving of a better paid job, then they ought to be able to negotiate one, either with their current job or competitively in the market. If they aren't, then why should they get one, just because of industrial action?
    Logically, in a free market, individuals are perfectly entitled to band together for collective pay bargaining, just as other individuals can band together to share capital and form companies.

    A court blocking such action is preventing the free market operating, and is a restriction on a free market.

    To those of us who do not obsess about whether markets are free but whether they work efficiently, it is of course irrelevant, but in a totally free market strikes and organised labour would be more common than they are in todays more regulated market.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,204
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
  • So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
    Did they? I thought paid holiday leave was a legal requirement that came through the ballot box, rather than through industrial action. I've never joined a union, even when it was an option (apart from the Students Union, that's different) but I've always been entitled to holidays.

    If people are deserving of a better paid job, then they ought to be able to negotiate one, either with their current job or competitively in the market. If they aren't, then why should they get one, just because of industrial action?
    Logically, in a free market, individuals are perfectly entitled to band together for collective pay bargaining, just as other individuals can band together to share capital and form companies.

    A court blocking such action is preventing the free market operating, and is a restriction on a free market.

    To those of us who do not obsess about whether markets are free but whether they work efficiently, it is of course irrelevant, but in a totally free market strikes and organised labour would be more common than they are in todays more regulated market.
    I have no objection to people striking if they choose to do so, in a totally free market, but the corollary to that is I think the employer should be able to immediately dismiss without notice anyone on the first day they go on strike, if they do.

    If relations have broken down to the point that labour is to be withheld, then the best thing for both the worker and the employer might be a parting of the ways so that someone else who wants the job on the terms and conditions available can do it instead.

    Of course, if there is no somebody else waiting, then the employer wouldn't do that, and the market would work.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,774

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Is Streeting sensible? Good interviewee but doubt he could stand the scrutiny of being a party leader.
    His tweet history will be a drag on his chances.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,815
    eek said:

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Well you can make it to university educated people who go on holiday abroad but I suspect no argument for FOM would play well in the Red Wall seats that Bozo won in 2019.

    Which is why it needs to be pulled from Labour's agenda so that some of the old Labour seats can return to Labour...
    I see the objections to FOM as fundamentally foolish.

    I do agree that a closer relationship with the EU needs to be the work of a non-Johnsonian Conservative Government for the sake of Labour Party credibility, but Starmer going in with his boots on over immigration and FOM is the work of a Charlatan.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,239
    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
  • Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Is Streeting sensible? Good interviewee but doubt he could stand the scrutiny of being a party leader.
    His tweet history will be a drag on his chances.
    I doubt it. Almost everyone now has a Tweet history. The past is the past and move on, just as past drug use as a student is no longer a bar to progressing up the greasy pole.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open.
    You weren't here so you don't know.

    You live over three thousand miles away in a rich Arab enclave. You really don't get how it was here.
    Somewhere which had an actual lockdown. As in do not leave the house without advance permission from the police.
    Sorry Sandpit, normally I agree with most things you say, but not on this one.

    The government stripping away your civil liberties without you having committed a crime absolutely is a lockdown. You may have had a more severe lockdown, but that's not to say we didn't either. It is wrong to normalise lockdowns by giving the state the power to say anything short of requiring permission to leave your home is a perfectly normal and perfectly justifiable state of affairs, it isn't.

    Your logic is like saying going to jail for six months in a British prison isn't incarceration because some people in other parts of the world go to jail in penal colonies with forced hard labour.
    Don’t worry, we don’t disagree about the restrictions, wherever we happen to be. So he says, siting at his desk with a bloody mask on because it’s still required. My reply was to a rather obsessive troll, who doesn’t think I’m entitled to an opinion.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
    Yes, shockingly bad

    How can Macron aspire to lead the EU without a majority in his own parliament? And, moreover, when half that parliament is minded either to leave the EU, or seriously reduce its involvement in French life?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,952
    edited June 20

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388
    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    I have an oil boiler. Expensive but unlikely to run out. And an open fire and years-worth of wood to burn.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,388

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    No. A top job for Carrie is just Arcurigate all over again. Carrie did not get the job; people will move on, ironically because Boris is too chaotic even to get corruption right.
    Why does he do it in the first place though. Is he a sucker for the ladies who twist him around their little fingers? It is always going to get him in trouble if the appointment comes off.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,111
    "Only a tiny minority of rural Britons are farmers – so why do they hold such sway?
    George Monbiot"


    The Guardian/Monbiot answer to this is wholly unrelated to the fact that people die if they don't eat.

    It's a bit like asking why we value keeping lots of oxygen in the atmosphere.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,724
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    Feels so creepy that the story was run and then vanished as if it never happened...
    Yes, the BBC covered the disappearance of the story, rather than made any effort to investigate the story itself.
    But I doubt it will disappear without a full and convincing rebuttal.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388

    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    The UK has a lot of LNG import capacity, and appears to have restricted pipeline capacity to export that gas to Europe. So as long as we can continue to pay the global spot price for LNG imports the UK should be okay.

    People are talking about rationing in Europe. Not sure what the practicalities of that are.
    We need just in time deliveries though, as we have nowhere to store it. Whose bright idea was it to allow the gas companies to remove the storage which is so strategically important...?
  • glwglw Posts: 8,473
    Leon said:

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term

    I recently read Gorky Park again, and that idea is even mentioned in there, so it seems to have been a persistent "problem" for Russia/Soviet Union, that there are not enough Slavs and too many Others.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,724
    mwadams said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    And he will be held to account by.......?
    I think we probably need a change to this kind of Parliamentary oversight so that it is performed by the judiciary, not the Parliamentarians themselves.

    The principle that parliamentary statements can always be taken on good faith, and that the House will severely sanction those who breach that protocol (as they cannot do their jobs if that is not the case) is gone. And with it the privilege to self-regulate.
    The privilege is still well entrenched.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    It has been stood up. Had been reported twice previously with little attention. Its only because the idiots in Number 10 conspired with the Times to so obviously pull the story that everyone is now talking about it.

    Honestly though will anyone care? They are corrupt. We all know that already. And apparently people are happy to support corruption. And lies. And criminality. And malfeasance. because Starmer supports chicks with dicks menacing our British values.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,747
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term

    I recently read Gorky Park again, and that idea is even mentioned in there, so it seems to have been a persistent "problem" for Russia/Soviet Union, that there are not enough Slavs and too many Others.

    Even Stalin had that problem. As a minority himself, he knew the minorities had other loyalties. A lot of the Old Bolsheviks were Balts, Poles, Jews etc but they were gradually purged after Lenin's death, other than a small coterie of Georgians and other Caucasians who were Stalin's mates
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,073
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
    Yes, shockingly bad

    How can Macron aspire to lead the EU without a majority in his own parliament? And, moreover, when half that parliament is minded either to leave the EU, or seriously reduce its involvement in French life?
    In the event, the final results were rather less dramatic than the exit polls and early results appeared to suggest. Le Pen certainly had a wholly unexpected triumph but Macron's party and the pro European centre-right (just over 70 seats) will have a comfortable majority should they form a coalition.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,724

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    No. A top job for Carrie is just Arcurigate all over again. Carrie did not get the job; people will move on, ironically because Boris is too chaotic even to get corruption right.

    I’m old enough to remember when Blunkett had to resign for fast tracking his childrens nanny’s visa. #Carriegate
    https://twitter.com/piyakhanna/status/1538564776464351234
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term

    I recently read Gorky Park again, and that idea is even mentioned in there, so it seems to have been a persistent "problem" for Russia/Soviet Union, that there are not enough Slavs and too many Others.

    Even Stalin had that problem. As a minority himself, he knew the minorities had other loyalties. A lot of the Old Bolsheviks were Balts, Poles, Jews etc but they were gradually purged after Lenin's death, other than a small coterie of Georgians and other Caucasians who were Stalin's mates
    Yes it was a state against its own people, I don't think any people suffered as much as the Russians in the twentieth century.

    Fun fact Trotsky's grandson is a violent extremist settler in occupied Palestine, one of the Khruschev's daughters publish anti Russian propaganda in the US and Stalin's granddaughter lead an alternative lifestyle in Portland, I think.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388
    Sandpit said:

    Heathener said:

    Once again I fear Sandpit that you are out of touch with the mood of the country. Most people will shrug their shoulders about the Carrie story. It's just one more in a long, long, line of malfeascance.

    The reason why partygate matters, which you STILL don't get, is that the vast majority of the population went through hell during the lockdowns. We missed birthdays, we missed a raft of other life events and we missed saying goodbye to people who died. And it was all AWFUL for our mental health.

    All the time that wicked clown was running a booze ship in Downing St.

    Come the next General Election poster after poster will hammer home the visceral, raw, anger and hurt we feel. There will be no constraints about for example showing that picture of HMQ sat alone after her beloved husband had died, whilst they were pulling an all-nighter at No.10.

    The tories keep Johnson they are doomed and Labour will hold a commanding lead.

    What you are talking about is a charicature of what actually happened, especially comparing restrictions in hospitals and care homes with those in the few offices that were open. The offences committed were parking tickets.

    Getting your mistress a job, for which she’s otherwise unqualified, is straight-up corruption.
    Yes. We know he is corrupt. And that is bad. But awarding £107m contracts to companies just founded by your friends who have zero experience is corruption. And we're told nothing to see here. Setting an illegal tariff policy to suit your billion aire donors is corrupt and still nothing to see here..

    But lockdown? You want an event that provokes a visceral gut reaction, its partygate. You don't get it. You are a long loing way away. But don't tell those of us who experienced it when you didn't that we are wronmg. What would you know about it? You weren't here.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,662
    edited June 20

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
    Did they? I thought paid holiday leave was a legal requirement that came through the ballot box, rather than through industrial action. I've never joined a union, even when it was an option (apart from the Students Union, that's different) but I've always been entitled to holidays.

    If people are deserving of a better paid job, then they ought to be able to negotiate one, either with their current job or competitively in the market. If they aren't, then why should they get one, just because of industrial action?
    Logically, in a free market, individuals are perfectly entitled to band together for collective pay bargaining, just as other individuals can band together to share capital and form companies.

    A court blocking such action is preventing the free market operating, and is a restriction on a free market.

    To those of us who do not obsess about whether markets are free but whether they work efficiently, it is of course irrelevant, but in a totally free market strikes and organised labour would be more common than they are in todays more regulated market.
    I have no objection to people striking if they choose to do so, in a totally free market, but the corollary to that is I think the employer should be able to immediately dismiss without notice anyone on the first day they go on strike, if they do.

    If relations have broken down to the point that labour is to be withheld, then the best thing for both the worker and the employer might be a parting of the ways so that someone else who wants the job on the terms and conditions available can do it instead.

    Of course, if there is no somebody else waiting, then the employer wouldn't do that, and the market would work.
    We already have a labour market where people can be dismissed with little to no notice - problem is it costs employers a lot more money and HMRC have spent 20 years trying to avoid the tax consequences of more people moving in that direction.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,473

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term

    I recently read Gorky Park again, and that idea is even mentioned in there, so it seems to have been a persistent "problem" for Russia/Soviet Union, that there are not enough Slavs and too many Others.

    Even Stalin had that problem. As a minority himself, he knew the minorities had other loyalties. A lot of the Old Bolsheviks were Balts, Poles, Jews etc but they were gradually purged after Lenin's death, other than a small coterie of Georgians and other Caucasians who were Stalin's mates
    Yes, I found it interesting that it was a prominent enough issue to get a mention as an aside in a novel that was written 40 odd years ago. I think the context was some campaign/propaganda to encourage European Russians to have more children.

    Russia might have dumped Communism but they seem to have kept every other malign idea they previously had.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    I think labelling refugees from mixed ethnicity cities in the Ukraine who go to Russian cities in Russia and get substantial material support from both government & civil society as "forced deportations" is one of the most insane lies of this war so far, especially given they are often staying with relatives. Since the coup in 2014 Russia has absorbed an enormous number of refugees fleeing the Ukraine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    It has been stood up. Had been reported twice previously with little attention. Its only because the idiots in Number 10 conspired with the Times to so obviously pull the story that everyone is now talking about it.

    Honestly though will anyone care? They are corrupt. We all know that already. And apparently people are happy to support corruption. And lies. And criminality. And malfeasance. because Starmer supports chicks with dicks menacing our British values.
    The difference is, that it’s now getting to people like me - people who, up until now, have been generally supportive of the government while admitting they’re not perfect. People who didn’t care about birthday cake.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,520
    Morning all. A bit of good news from Columbia anyway - the rancid Trumpalike candidate lost. You take what you can get these days.

    (well done that poster from yesterday who called it right)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    JohnO said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
    Yes, shockingly bad

    How can Macron aspire to lead the EU without a majority in his own parliament? And, moreover, when half that parliament is minded either to leave the EU, or seriously reduce its involvement in French life?
    In the event, the final results were rather less dramatic than the exit polls and early results appeared to suggest. Le Pen certainly had a wholly unexpected triumph but Macron's party and the pro European centre-right (just over 70 seats) will have a comfortable majority should they form a coalition.
    Non. Macron missed his majority by over 40 seats. Way beyond expectations. He lost multiple ministers, including some of those closest to him. Le Pen outdid even her most optimist hopes - about 40 seats - she actually got 89

    It’s an earthquake

    Also, all the French press is saying the same thing, that les Republicans will absolutely not go into a formal coalition with Macron - they cordially detest him - and he is not keen on a coalition with them, as it will paint him as right wing

    His only hope - it is said - is to cobble together ad hoc coalitions for each policy, but that’s a nightmare of organisation. Herding French cats. As you yourself suggested last night, he might be better off calling a new election in a year. Le Monde is already predicting that
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,976

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    Equally, let the company sack them all and re-employ people who are prepared to do the job for less. Like P&O. Striking/collective bargaining is a perfectly valid and free market action to take to try to improve your lot. If the employers don't like it then they can take appropriate action to avoid it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,343
    Mr. Pioneers, every government of my adult life has had a ridiculous approach to energy.

    My mother was amused the other day when I mentioned to her Boris Johnson's 'rush for nuclear' nonsense.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    glw said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term

    I recently read Gorky Park again, and that idea is even mentioned in there, so it seems to have been a persistent "problem" for Russia/Soviet Union, that there are not enough Slavs and too many Others.

    Even Stalin had that problem. As a minority himself, he knew the minorities had other loyalties. A lot of the Old Bolsheviks were Balts, Poles, Jews etc but they were gradually purged after Lenin's death, other than a small coterie of Georgians and other Caucasians who were Stalin's mates
    Yes, I found it interesting that it was a prominent enough issue to get a mention as an aside in a novel that was written 40 odd years ago. I think the context was some campaign/propaganda to encourage European Russians to have more children.

    Russia might have dumped Communism but they seem to have kept every other malign idea they previously had.
    The Bolsheviks were the first to implement affirmative action, LGBLT, multiculturalism, modern day Russia has very forcefully rejected such nonsense.

    Trotsky's great grandson is David Axelrod the Jewish ultranationalist and convicted convict.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,724
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    It has been stood up. Had been reported twice previously with little attention. Its only because the idiots in Number 10 conspired with the Times to so obviously pull the story that everyone is now talking about it.

    Honestly though will anyone care? They are corrupt. We all know that already. And apparently people are happy to support corruption. And lies. And criminality. And malfeasance. because Starmer supports chicks with dicks menacing our British values.
    The difference is, that it’s now getting to people like me - people who, up until now, have been generally supportive of the government while admitting they’re not perfect. People who didn’t care about birthday cake.
    And many who might not have noticed the story last time round will take note, because of the attempt to bury it.

    Certainly parts of the BBC were very reluctant to give it airtime this weekend, despite the absence of any on the record denial, and the journalist who wrote the story publicly saying that he stands by it:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0018mzx/the-papers-19062022#playt=00h10m39s
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I note both the Guardian and BBC ran the Carrie £100k Foreign Office job story again this morning, without eliciting any on the record denial from No.10.

    If that story can be genuinely stood up, then the PM is in real trouble. Trying to get your mistress into a public-funded job for which she’s in no way qualified, is out of order. Far more significant than birthday cake.
    It has been stood up. Had been reported twice previously with little attention. Its only because the idiots in Number 10 conspired with the Times to so obviously pull the story that everyone is now talking about it.

    Honestly though will anyone care? They are corrupt. We all know that already. And apparently people are happy to support corruption. And lies. And criminality. And malfeasance. because Starmer supports chicks with dicks menacing our British values.
    The difference is, that it’s now getting to people like me - people who, up until now, have been generally supportive of the government while admitting they’re not perfect. People who didn’t care about birthday cake.
    I get that - and glad to see that you have stopped providing succour to malfeasance lies and criminality.

    But most people DO care about partygate. Its not about a slice of cake and frankly you make yourself look dim parroting this load of Tory spin.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,388

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    If we didn't have unions we wouldn't have lots of things like weekends off, or paid holiday. These came about through industrial action.

    Are unions always good, no but I think there is a place for striking.
    Did they? I thought paid holiday leave was a legal requirement that came through the ballot box, rather than through industrial action. I've never joined a union, even when it was an option (apart from the Students Union, that's different) but I've always been entitled to holidays.

    If people are deserving of a better paid job, then they ought to be able to negotiate one, either with their current job or competitively in the market. If they aren't, then why should they get one, just because of industrial action?
    Logically, in a free market, individuals are perfectly entitled to band together for collective pay bargaining, just as other individuals can band together to share capital and form companies.

    A court blocking such action is preventing the free market operating, and is a restriction on a free market.

    To those of us who do not obsess about whether markets are free but whether they work efficiently, it is of course irrelevant, but in a totally free market strikes and organised labour would be more common than they are in todays more regulated market.
    I have no objection to people striking if they choose to do so, in a totally free market, but the corollary to that is I think the employer should be able to immediately dismiss without notice anyone on the first day they go on strike, if they do.

    If relations have broken down to the point that labour is to be withheld, then the best thing for both the worker and the employer might be a parting of the ways so that someone else who wants the job on the terms and conditions available can do it instead.

    Of course, if there is no somebody else waiting, then the employer wouldn't do that, and the market would work.
    The employment laws are there because it is an uneven relationship in terms of power and of course that is the reason the unions also came about. Where the balance lies is the issue. I come from the stance of a completely free market which should only be interfered with where the balance of power is clearly uneven but with employment that has been the case. Has it gone too far?

    For the last 20 years of my working life I organized companies into pressure groups. In that scenario the marketplace did not need legal or govt interference and worked well (sometimes to my cost).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,714

    MattW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Btw, what is the plan for this winter should Russia cut off gas supplies completely for a couple of months ?

    The UK doesn't use much Russian gas I think ? Wasn't it 3% - I'd have thought we could live without it. Continental europe OTOH..
    One disruption that I think we would face is the likely diversion of some of the Norwegian supply we receive to continental Europe. But I think we have the LNG import capacity to compensate if we can pay the increased prices.
    I'm not sure how that would happen given contracts, but perhaps a.n.other can advise?
    I believe single market rules for a gas market emergency would override contracts, or else the contracts would have a clause noting the possibility of being affected by such rules.
    I'm not sure how single market rules would overrule established contracts in Norway. I'd need to see some informed commentary on that.

    Though I can see Brussels trying, just as they tried force majeure and God knows what else when they had cocked up their vaccine contracts. In that case we held enough cards to tell them to back off.

    In this case currently we have a number of LNG gas terminals, which especially Germany neglected to build, which are used as feed in points for gas supply to the European network.

    There are also some Norwegian sources aiui that are devoted solely to the UK, and cannot be diverted. And other Norway gas may be entering the EU network via our pipes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61633993

    So imo I do not think that a forced diversion is likely.

    Though perhaps Young Mr Smithson has more detail.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,714
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
    Yes, shockingly bad

    How can Macron aspire to lead the EU without a majority in his own parliament? And, moreover, when half that parliament is minded either to leave the EU, or seriously reduce its involvement in French life?
    I haven't yet discovered why they report the "abstention rate" rather than "turnout" in all the coverage.

    Why focus on half-empty?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,536
    Treasury minister Simon Clarke rejects claims from airline bosses that Brexit to blame for staff shortages affecting passengers at airports - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jun/20/uk-inflation-rail-strike-boris-johnson-latest-updates-live?page=with:block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6#block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 8,225
    edited June 20
    TOPPING said:

    So, do nurses and doctors deserve a good pay rise? Are we suddenly sympathetic to them striking?

    I'm never sympathetic to striking.

    If they deserve a good pay rise they ought to be able to negotiate a good pay rise, via the invisible hand of the market.

    If they don't, and they're not happy with their job, they should quit and get a better paid job they're happier with. If they can't quit and get a better paid job they're happier with, then they're not being badly paid presumably?
    Equally, let the company sack them all and re-employ people who are prepared to do the job for less. Like P&O. Striking/collective bargaining is a perfectly valid and free market action to take to try to improve your lot. If the employers don't like it then they can take appropriate action to avoid it.
    Only if the employee is not legally compelled to join the strike and the employer is not legally forbidden from replacing the striking workers.

    I completely agree that striking is valid if people want to do that, but choice should go both ways. The employees should have a choice whether or not to join the strike, and the employer should have a choice whether or not the withheld labour should be kept on or not.

    At present it is against the law to dismiss someone for taking industrial action, that is every bit as wrong in my eyes as it would be wrong to ban industrial action.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,204

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    AIUI for that reason: they were moved there by the Soviet government.

    I'd really love to think that the days of forced government migrations were over, after the hundreds of millions who were subjected to it in the twentieth century.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,724
    JohnSmith said:

    I think labelling refugees from mixed ethnicity cities in the Ukraine who go to Russian cities in Russia and get substantial material support from both government & civil society as "forced deportations" is one of the most insane lies of this war so far, especially given they are often staying with relatives. Since the coup in 2014 Russia has absorbed an enormous number of refugees fleeing the Ukraine.

    So how may of the 600k forcibly deported children are "staying with relatives", and can you evidence this "substantial material support" ?

    Sounds more as though you are repeating Putin's lies.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    Macron was fortunate the elections were held now, before the full cost of his Altancist adventures in the Ukraine have been fully felt by the always proud and patriotic French electorate. There may be trouble ahead...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388
    Scott_xP said:

    Treasury minister Simon Clarke rejects claims from airline bosses that Brexit to blame for staff shortages affecting passengers at airports - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jun/20/uk-inflation-rail-strike-boris-johnson-latest-updates-live?page=with:block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6#block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6

    Simon Clarke is like one of those dinosaurs who evolved to be massive but retained their tiny brain.

    He can't believe that he's promoted this far this quickly - especially after the scandal - so loyally says anything they tell him to. Like a 2022 version of Chloe Smith.
  • Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    AIUI for that reason: they were moved there by the Soviet government.

    I'd really love to think that the days of forced government migrations were over, after the hundreds of millions who were subjected to it in the twentieth century.
    Don't worry, Russia is subject to the ECHR so there's no way Russia would be committing such atrocities.

    Or so I'm led to believe by recent debates about how vital the ECHR supposedly is.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157
    Scott_xP said:

    Treasury minister Simon Clarke rejects claims from airline bosses that Brexit to blame for staff shortages affecting passengers at airports - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jun/20/uk-inflation-rail-strike-boris-johnson-latest-updates-live?page=with:block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6#block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6

    "We cannot get into a world where we are chasing inflation expectations in that way because that is the surest way I can think of to bake in the repeat of the 1970s which this government is determined to prevent."

    I wonder if they can re-create their 1950s dream world without passing through the 1970s first.....
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 634

    eek said:

    Heathener said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer preparing immigration speech ruling out return of free movement w/ Europe

    A Labour source said: “Keir recognises that it’s time to put a line in the sand and stop any speculation about what our position on immigration might be.”

    And the Red Wall returns

    Dumping FOM? Well in that case he's an idiot, bring on the FPN!
    I've no idea what FPN stands for and can't be arsed to google it. I'm guessing FOM is Freedom of Movement.

    Starmer is showing the kind of political nous which will win him power.

    He could always alter the policy later. After all, lying is now apparently part and parcel of the job.
    Fixed penalty notice. From the Guardian this weekend the party have preparations well under way to ensure Starmer's successor (in the event if an FPN) is someone sensible like Nandy or Streeting.

    Starmer has detoxified the brand, but now seems to be running on empty. Populist nonsense is not the way forward, and although I now accept Brexit is done, holidaymakers to Europe will conclude it hasn't been done well. The case for a single market including FOM can be made objectively.
    Well you can make it to university educated people who go on holiday abroad but I suspect no argument for FOM would play well in the Red Wall seats that Bozo won in 2019.

    Which is why it needs to be pulled from Labour's agenda so that some of the old Labour seats can return to Labour...
    I see the objections to FOM as fundamentally foolish.

    I do agree that a closer relationship with the EU needs to be the work of a non-Johnsonian Conservative Government for the sake of Labour Party credibility, but Starmer going in with his boots on over immigration and FOM is the work of a Charlatan.
    The 2024 GE is too early for a manifesto commitment to joining the EEA. What remainers/rejoiners need to hope for in the short to medium term is that Johnson and this Conservative Party are removed from power, and that a Labour government can reestablish a friendly relationship between the UK and the EU. If Starmer's government then turns out to be reasonably popular with the electorate (and have managed to keep immigration reasonably under control), then I could see them trying to sell the EEA (with an emergency brake on immigraton per Article 112 of the EEA Treaty) at the 2029 GE election. That's the time to try and get back in the single market.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    JohnSmith said:

    Macron was fortunate the elections were held now, before the full cost of his Altancist adventures in the Ukraine have been fully felt by the always proud and patriotic French electorate. There may be trouble ahead...

    ah
  • JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
    'special military operation'

    Troll face is obvious. At least your predecessor trolls like that Gary dude put a bit more effort in not to appear so obvious.

    In before the ban.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,157

    Scott_xP said:

    Treasury minister Simon Clarke rejects claims from airline bosses that Brexit to blame for staff shortages affecting passengers at airports - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/jun/20/uk-inflation-rail-strike-boris-johnson-latest-updates-live?page=with:block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6#block-62b032f78f08f2b5ecc6bbe6

    Simon Clarke is like one of those dinosaurs who evolved to be massive but retained their tiny brain.

    He can't believe that he's promoted this far this quickly - especially after the scandal - so loyally says anything they tell him to. Like a 2022 version of Chloe Smith.
    Only put in that treasury job as he is a foot taller than Sunak.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,073
    edited June 20
    Leon said:

    JohnO said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    Turnout of less than 50% is another striking statistic.
    Yes, shockingly bad

    How can Macron aspire to lead the EU without a majority in his own parliament? And, moreover, when half that parliament is minded either to leave the EU, or seriously reduce its involvement in French life?
    In the event, the final results were rather less dramatic than the exit polls and early results appeared to suggest. Le Pen certainly had a wholly unexpected triumph but Macron's party and the pro European centre-right (just over 70 seats) will have a comfortable majority should they form a coalition.
    Non. Macron missed his majority by over 40 seats. Way beyond expectations. He lost multiple ministers, including some of those closest to him. Le Pen outdid even her most optimist hopes - about 40 seats - she actually got 89

    It’s an earthquake

    Also, all the French press is saying the same thing, that les Republicans will absolutely not go into a formal coalition with Macron - they cordially detest him - and he is not keen on a coalition with them, as it will paint him as right wing

    His only hope - it is said - is to cobble together ad hoc coalitions for each policy, but that’s a nightmare of organisation. Herding French cats. As you yourself suggested last night, he might be better off calling a new election in a year. Le Monde is already predicting that
    OK, I haven't read the French press and they will certainly know more than me. If his government staggers on a policy-by-policy, vote-by-vote basis, then very little will get done. My minor point was that Ensemble got 22 more seats than predicted when the polls closed but perhaps more a distinction than a difference in the great scheme of things.

    Also, while a President can unilaterally dissolve the Assembly after 12 months, like a UK PM, he would be ill-advised to do so if his party were still deeply unpopular and set to lose even more seats.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,662

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    AIUI for that reason: they were moved there by the Soviet government.

    I'd really love to think that the days of forced government migrations were over, after the hundreds of millions who were subjected to it in the twentieth century.
    Don't worry, Russia is subject to the ECHR so there's no way Russia would be committing such atrocities.

    Or so I'm led to believe by recent debates about how vital the ECHR supposedly is.
    Russia was thrown out when they attacked the Ukraine...

    As for leaving the ECHR - given that Winston Churchill founded it - that may not be the best legacy Bozo would aim for.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,404
    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    To be frank that has always been the case. You pontificate on France as if you are a cognoscenti but you clearly have never, properly, lived there as I have. If you had you would know that all the things you find remarkable have been around for donkey's years, including racism (my word it's strong in the south-west where I was) and euroscepticism.

    And successive French governments learnt to deal with Brussels in a way that we should have done: when you don't like it, ignore it. The Germans do the same.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    Nigelb said:

    JohnSmith said:

    I think labelling refugees from mixed ethnicity cities in the Ukraine who go to Russian cities in Russia and get substantial material support from both government & civil society as "forced deportations" is one of the most insane lies of this war so far, especially given they are often staying with relatives. Since the coup in 2014 Russia has absorbed an enormous number of refugees fleeing the Ukraine.

    So how may of the 600k forcibly deported children are "staying with relatives", and can you evidence this "substantial material support" ?

    Sounds more as though you are repeating Putin's lies.
    Can you provide any evidence of these forcible deportations, incredible accusations require some level of evidence? Are you seriously claiming there isn't a large ethnically Russian and Russophile population in the Ukraine with relatives in Russia, that the Donbass militias don't exist, that Russia hasn't taken in millions of refugees from the Ukraine as documented by the UN?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,051
    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
    Okay, so you’re in favour of the forced migration abduction. Are you also in favour of the rape?
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    AIUI for that reason: they were moved there by the Soviet government.

    I'd really love to think that the days of forced government migrations were over, after the hundreds of millions who were subjected to it in the twentieth century.
    Don't worry, Russia is subject to the ECHR so there's no way Russia would be committing such atrocities.

    Or so I'm led to believe by recent debates about how vital the ECHR supposedly is.
    Russia was thrown out when they attacked the Ukraine...

    As for leaving the ECHR - given that Winston Churchill founded it - that may not be the best legacy Bozo would aim for.
    Russia left didn't they as it had become a political body, as we should?

    I think you will find Russia joined the fighting at the request of the Donbass Republics, very much in line with international law.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 20,388

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
    'special military operation'

    Troll face is obvious. At least your predecessor trolls like that Gary dude put a bit more effort in not to appear so obvious.

    In before the ban.
    I thought calling this regeneration "John Smith" was quite funny - Doctor Who's alias. Like saying "look, I have regenerated into another pro-Putin bot".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 25,993
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Last night’s French elex are going to reverberate

    Amongst many other significant consequences, almost half of the French parliament is now more or less eurosceptic

    To be frank that has always been the case. You pontificate on France as if you are a cognoscenti but you clearly have never, properly, lived there as I have. If you had you would know that all the things you find remarkable have been around for donkey's years, including racism (my word it's strong in the south-west where I was) and euroscepticism.

    And successive French governments learnt to deal with Brussels in a way that we should have done: when you don't like it, ignore it. The Germans do the same.
    Lol. I am aware of French racism. And this is without doubt the most eurosceptic parliament in modern French history

    Also “a cognoscenti”??
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19
    Sandpit said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
    Okay, so you’re in favour of the forced migration abduction. Are you also in favour of the rape?
    Didn't the Ukrainians have to sack the woman who made up the rape claims, they were that ridiculous it was embarrassing and undermined the fight against a very real problem.
  • JohnSmithJohnSmith Posts: 19

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    I believe the Kuban has the highest ethnically Ukrainian population, it is also the region of Russia that most strongly support the special military operation, I seem to remember Anatoly Karlin talking about it in his interview with my old school chum Freddie Gray. Of course one isn't considering the two Donbass Republics as part of Russia, yet.
    'special military operation'

    Troll face is obvious. At least your predecessor trolls like that Gary dude put a bit more effort in not to appear so obvious.

    In before the ban.
    I thought calling this regeneration "John Smith" was quite funny - Doctor Who's alias. Like saying "look, I have regenerated into another pro-Putin bot".
    Have a little patriotism, your second rate US propaganda should be able to withstand a little scrutiny.
  • eek said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    https://twitter.com/timothydsnyder/status/1538588728393973765?s=21&t=foUOmD51CNGHylRJ_08IVw

    “Russia has now forcibly deported 300,000 Ukrainian children to its own territory in order to assimilate them.”

    This is Hitler-esque in terms of evil intent. One can only shudder at what is intended for the parents and extended families.

    Hard not to draw some pretty unpalatable historic parallels for those dragging their heels on weapons shipments and sanctions. Or those like Kissinger, calling for a “negotiated settlement”.

    Apparently, one of the clear but unstated aims of the Putin Invasion is to absorb millions of white Ukrainian Christians into Russia, thus helping with Moscow’s demographic timebomb (at least for a while) and also balancing out the relatively growing number of darker-skinned Muslims/Asians inside Russia

    As you say, it is perfectly Hitlerian. Hitler did exactly the same to blonde “Aryan” Polish kids. Simply stole them

    Like you, I do not see how we can ever compromise with this, in the medium-long term
    The USSR did that a great deal in the 1930s to 1950s. Entire populations uprooted and moved.

    However, identity is more pronounced nowadays. There is a Ukrainian identity, and the Internet makes it easier to be part of a wider diaspora. Many of the people being forced into Russia will be from the eastern states, and might be inclined towards Russia. But if even 10% see themselves as Ukrainian, then Russia will be letting itself into potentially significant issues in the future.

    I actually question how long the Russian empire can hold itself together, given the way it s using troops from its regions as cannon fodder.
    Apparently there's a big ethnically Ukrainian population in the far east of Russia, in the Vladivostok area. Been there for years allegedly.
    AIUI for that reason: they were moved there by the Soviet government.

    I'd really love to think that the days of forced government migrations were over, after the hundreds of millions who were subjected to it in the twentieth century.
    Don't worry, Russia is subject to the ECHR so there's no way Russia would be committing such atrocities.

    Or so I'm led to believe by recent debates about how vital the ECHR supposedly is.
    Russia was thrown out when they attacked the Ukraine...

    As for leaving the ECHR - given that Winston Churchill founded it - that may not be the best legacy Bozo would aim for.
    No, they weren't thrown out when they attacked Ukraine.

    They attacked Ukraine in 2014, had their voting rights suspended in response, only to blackmail the Council of Europe into restoring them in full prior to invading again this year.

    The ECHR was founded by Churchill who had it implemented by the UK Parliament and UK courts, not external courts which Churchill categorically did not found. We should revert back to what Churchill had.

    But do you think Russia had full human rights and were fully "checked" by the ECHR justifying their voting rights having been restored to them until February of this year?
This discussion has been closed.