The seats Labour needs to win will want it gone. The Lib Dems need to target seats where voters might be open to it and they are already making that case.
You can have FOM but tie it to making benefits etc linked to contributions. So no benefits in the first X years. I believe other countries do this.
Now I don't believe many of our European migrants actually came for the benefits, most wanted to work. But that was one of the narratives that won the referendum, so you can shoot the fox and have FOM for the excellent staff our country needs in so many sectors.
If we had any nuance in our politics today I would agree but we don't so for the long term ability of actually making change, i.e. electing Labour at the moment (as they would see it), this position makes sense.
There’s no superinjunction on the story about Boris Johnson trying to get a job for Carrie at the FO, because if there were, The Guardian couldn’t publish this. So something else has gone on and I think @thetimes should really explain what that was… https://twitter.com/mediaguardian/status/1538580002639257600
I really don't understand how Johnson has got away with this one. Perhaps the new Ethics adviser will raise it, hang on, what's his name?....B Johnson?
No, they’ve got a new guy lined up, complete stickler for the rules apparently.
I think he's called Norris Bojson
In the interests of an open transparent hiring process, he's shortlisted one John Borisson too.
One for the PB collective, including Roger. I need to get some old film posters repaired which have some slight tears and one or two slightly more major ones. Can anyone recommend a good poster repair place in London? Also, if anyone had any ideas of good framers (ironically, I know one in Paris but not here).
I know a very good framer in Glasgow but I realise THAT’S NOT MUCH BLOODY USE. Assume you’ve done a Google but in case not:
My recent quest for a film poster about which you were helpful was fruitless. That poster is apparently thin on the ground and there’s an even rarer one for the same film out there. As an aside, the companies I contacted were really helpful and knowledgeable, presumably because they all started as enthusiasts themselves.
Reflecting on the situation with @JohnSmith reinforces the view that the Ukraine adventure is truly a bizarre misstep by Putin. Why not just continue with provocative acts that confuse people, defy explanation and can be plausibly denied? Why start a war of aggression in a moment of rage that alienates you from most of your supporters/sympathisers and is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify? I keep thinking back to Wallace's comment 'gone full tonto' and it seems he got it right.
Much of the act when these characters appear seems to be about peddling random assertions about Russia and its objectives to see which ones are viewed sympathetically by this 'educated audience'. A meme building operation.
What I don't understand is Putin (and his regime's) continued embiggening of the war aims. It started off as a limited (but b/s) attempt to denazify Ukraine and free the Russophile eastern areas (who were largely having their rights stamped on by the Russian-backed separatists).
Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.
However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.
It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
The seats Labour needs to win will want it gone. The Lib Dems need to target seats where voters might be open to it and they are already making that case.
You can have FOM but tie it to making benefits etc linked to contributions. So no benefits in the first X years. I believe other countries do this.
Now I don't believe many of our European migrants actually came for the benefits, most wanted to work. But that was one of the narratives that won the referendum, so you can shoot the fox and have FOM for the excellent staff our country needs in so many sectors.
One issue is in-work benefits. People could come here to get a minimum wage job, then instantly get housing allowance/tax credits/universal credit etc
If it were up to me, then I'd welcome virtually anyone who wanted to live here, but they'd be ineligible for any support. Absolutely no in work benefits, and they'd have to pay the annual fee for the NHS too. I'd merge and thus abolish benefits into the tax system with a Negative Income Tax/UBI that is payable only to citizens who live in the country.
That way virtually anyone who wants to come here is able to do so, but they must have a job that pays their own costs in full and after a few years doing so they'd be able to apply for citizenship.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
I think everyone should get a pay cut in real terms compared to what they would have got because there's a war so the world is making less stuff, and some of the stuff it is making is being replaced by tools for blowing up other people's stuff.
So all things being equal everybody with a job should get a pay cut and pensioners and so forth should also get a pension cut. There may be some cases where group X shouldn't get cut, but in that case you need to work out who the group Y is that's going to get cut double.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
No to the doubling.
Top 3% salary plus paid for accommodation (worth 30-35k on the salary) plus gold played pension plus various others is more than sufficient.
Am I missing something important with the Carrie story, he didn't get her hired, so why does whether he tried to or not matter? If he had, it might be different, but he didn't.
I know plenty of people who have suggested or hired their spouse or significant other for a role, its perfectly natural as you already generally trust your spouse or significant other so it makes sense to do so a lot of the time.
If he'd overridden procedure and forced her into the role, that would be scandalous, but merely suggesting her then accepting the decision when she wasn't hired . . . why is that even a story?
He had to declare the relationship. It is standard procedure.
It is a conflict of interest and also a potential blackmail risk.
As Foreign Secretary he supervises MI6 and you don’t want the FS compromised.
So the issue isn't that he tried to get her hired, the issue is that he failed to declare the relationship when doing so?
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks, and on Centre Court for the Wimbledon final).
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Is it a BiK if it doesn't come from the employer though?
Isn't that precisely why so many hospitality packages are available with sporting events? Because its quite readily possible to design the relationship in a way to avoid it being classed as a BiK?
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
One for the PB collective, including Roger. I need to get some old film posters repaired which have some slight tears and one or two slightly more major ones. Can anyone recommend a good poster repair place in London? Also, if anyone had any ideas of good framers (ironically, I know one in Paris but not here).
I don't know which bit of London you live in. On the off chance that you are in the SE4/14/13/8 kind of neighbourhood I would heartily recommend David Mitchell picture framers on Loampit Vale, Lewisham. Very professional and remarkably readonable in price too. You could get some great Sri Lankan food at Everest next door while you are there.
Am I missing something important with the Carrie story, he didn't get her hired, so why does whether he tried to or not matter? If he had, it might be different, but he didn't.
I know plenty of people who have suggested or hired their spouse or significant other for a role, its perfectly natural as you already generally trust your spouse or significant other so it makes sense to do so a lot of the time.
If he'd overridden procedure and forced her into the role, that would be scandalous, but merely suggesting her then accepting the decision when she wasn't hired . . . why is that even a story?
He had to declare the relationship. It is standard procedure.
It is a conflict of interest and also a potential blackmail risk.
As Foreign Secretary he supervises MI6 and you don’t want the FS compromised.
It's a mark of how so many have come to just accept that Johnson is an untrustworthy crook (and a significant number of those still support him) that it's now being argued there's nothing to see here.
There’s no superinjunction on the story about Boris Johnson trying to get a job for Carrie at the FO, because if there were, The Guardian couldn’t publish this. So something else has gone on and I think @thetimes should really explain what that was… https://twitter.com/mediaguardian/status/1538580002639257600
I really don't understand how Johnson has got away with this one. Perhaps the new Ethics adviser will raise it, hang on, what's his name?....B Johnson?
No, they’ve got a new guy lined up, complete stickler for the rules apparently.
I think he's called Norris Bojson
In the interests of an open transparent hiring process, he's shortlisted one John Borisson too.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
It could be argued that these "managing decline" situations are exactly when a bit of redistribution helps. The top 0.1% could weather a proportional extra squeeze, perhaps? In reality, they will probably be allowed to aggregate a higher proportion of the available wealth.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
Aspirations only count if you work in financial services.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
Because they have organised themselves into a position where they have some bargaining power. It's not their fault if other workers haven't.
Or 'I'm alright Jack' as it is otherwise known.
Good luck to them is how I would put it. Any workers getting a decent pay rise will also set a precedent for other negotiations so it might well help others get a decent raise too.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Yes. The greedy pigs. Their life is one constant 'Oscars goody bag' Lammy the luxurious.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
Because they have organised themselves into a position where they have some bargaining power. It's not their fault if other workers haven't.
Or 'I'm alright Jack' as it is otherwise known.
Good luck to them is how I would put it. Any workers getting a decent pay rise will also set a precedent for other negotiations so it might well help others get a decent raise too.
And that is, in part, how inflationary spirals begin.
I don't blame the rail workers, but the evidence of the 70s is that only some groups succeed in the attempt to get large rises in times of high inflation. And it introduces a very large element of uncertainty into pay bargaining compared to low inflationary environments.
If not brought back under control quite quickly, high inflation becomes very painful for a lot of people. The financially nimble, and the wealthy (there's a large overlap there) can do quite well.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
And the changes in working practices require a significant number of redundancies which is the other reason behind the strike....
Edit to add - the train operators are being asked to find £bns in cost savings. Any large wage increase significantly increases the amount of costs they need to find and cut.
And as with schools most of the fat has already been cut so what's left is which arm / leg do you wish to remove and how carefully.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Even their 7% starting point is a real pay cut and yet people like Big G want to heap more misery on to workers whilst been content with the reintroduction of the triple lock next year.
Tie Pensions to public sector pay increases, backdated to 2010 and we would soon get a change of attitude from the selfish Golden Generation.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
It could be argued that these "managing decline" situations are exactly when a bit of redistribution helps. The top 0.1% could weather a proportional extra squeeze, perhaps? In reality, they will probably be allowed to aggregate a higher proportion of the available wealth.
I agree with more redistribution, but in my opinion that won't change the overall picture much. I wouldn't use the phrase "managing the decline" as it implies a long term trend. I'm optimistic for prospects in a year or two assuming stupid political decisions don't put a spanner in the works. Brexit might mean a relative decline for UK but pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. Possible re-election of Trump is a bit of a Russian Roulette situation though.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
And the changes in working practices require a significant number of redundancies which is the other reason behind the strike....
I would honestly have expected a management team who were worth half their salaries to have teased out the fact that there are 2 issues here and the question of what wage increase is being offered to deal with inflation, even in part, really has to be dealt with separately.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
And the changes in working practices require a significant number of redundancies which is the other reason behind the strike....
I would honestly have expected a management team who were worth half their salaries to have teased out the fact that there are 2 issues here and the question of what wage increase is being offered to deal with inflation, even in part, really have to be dealt with separately.
No offer on the table. It's just incredible.
See my update.
But the strike isn't just about wages - it's about cuts and the impact those cuts will have on safety.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
That's because they have nothing to offer.
The government subsidy is effectively frozen: ...Treasury minister Mr Clarke told BBC Breakfast there was "no point giving false hope" the strikes could be avoided, adding it is "important to be realistic" about the difficulty of the negotiations. "We absolutely don't want them to go ahead, I recognise this is going to cause misery for millions of people and I am profoundly sorry about that," he added. Mr Clarke also ruled out the direct involvement of government ministers in the talks and said the railway would have to "financially sustain itself"...
And the union refuses to discuss any potential restructuring before a pay settlement is agreed, which is why no talks.
There might be a middle way to be found were government prepared to be involved in talks, but they are not.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Makes sense to me. All the expenses and top ups suggest they are regarded as underpaid, so the base salary being what it is is just dishonest and makes things overly complicated, which they can also abuse and claim 'confusion' about. Second jobs it is a shame to lose completely, but we clearly cannot trust them not to abuse that either, so ban it and up the salary to compensate.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
It could be argued that these "managing decline" situations are exactly when a bit of redistribution helps. The top 0.1% could weather a proportional extra squeeze, perhaps? In reality, they will probably be allowed to aggregate a higher proportion of the available wealth.
I agree with more redistribution, but in my opinion that won't change the overall picture much. I wouldn't use the phrase "managing the decline" as it implies a long term trend. I'm optimistic for prospects in a year or two assuming stupid political decisions don't put a spanner in the works. Brexit might mean a relative decline for UK but pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. Possible re-election of Trump is a bit of a Russian Roulette situation though.
Brexit might mean a relative decline for UK. It certainly does. pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. We'll be waiting a while. Possible re-election of Trump is. Happening.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
It could be argued that these "managing decline" situations are exactly when a bit of redistribution helps. The top 0.1% could weather a proportional extra squeeze, perhaps? In reality, they will probably be allowed to aggregate a higher proportion of the available wealth.
I agree with more redistribution, but in my opinion that won't change the overall picture much. I wouldn't use the phrase "managing the decline" as it implies a long term trend. I'm optimistic for prospects in a year or two assuming stupid political decisions don't put a spanner in the works. Brexit might mean a relative decline for UK but pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. Possible re-election of Trump is a bit of a Russian Roulette situation though.
I think that might be fair: maybe "managing the period of decline"?
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
Because they have organised themselves into a position where they have some bargaining power. It's not their fault if other workers haven't.
Or 'I'm alright Jack' as it is otherwise known.
Good luck to them is how I would put it. Any workers getting a decent pay rise will also set a precedent for other negotiations so it might well help others get a decent raise too.
And that is, in part, how inflationary spirals begin.
I don't blame the rail workers, but the evidence of the 70s is that only some groups succeed in the attempt to get large rises in times of high inflation. And it introduces a very large element of uncertainty into pay bargaining compared to low inflationary environments.
If not brought back under control quite quickly, high inflation becomes very painful for a lot of people. The financially nimble, and the wealthy (there's a large overlap there) can do quite well.
I agree. Part of the problem is the BOE's anaemic response that has allowed inflation expectations to move higher. The question though is whether workers should face the full force of higher inflation or if they should use whatever bargaining power they have to limit the impact on themselves and force others (essentially capital and pensioners) to absorb some of the loss of income. I support them in their efforts. It's not good enough to simply tell workers that they must be the ones to take the hit every single time.
One for the PB collective, including Roger. I need to get some old film posters repaired which have some slight tears and one or two slightly more major ones. Can anyone recommend a good poster repair place in London? Also, if anyone had any ideas of good framers (ironically, I know one in Paris but not here).
I don't know which bit of London you live in. On the off chance that you are in the SE4/14/13/8 kind of neighbourhood I would heartily recommend David Mitchell picture framers on Loampit Vale, Lewisham. Very professional and remarkably readonable in price too. You could get some great Sri Lankan food at Everest next door while you are there.
Thank you Living - I live in North London but I am quite happy to travel down there, and get some great food at the same time!
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
That's because they have nothing to offer.
The government subsidy is effectively frozen: ...Treasury minister Mr Clarke told BBC Breakfast there was "no point giving false hope" the strikes could be avoided, adding it is "important to be realistic" about the difficulty of the negotiations. "We absolutely don't want them to go ahead, I recognise this is going to cause misery for millions of people and I am profoundly sorry about that," he added. Mr Clarke also ruled out the direct involvement of government ministers in the talks and said the railway would have to "financially sustain itself"...
And the union refuses to discuss any potential restructuring before a pay settlement is agreed, which is why no talks.
There might be a middle way to be found were government prepared to be involved in talks, but they are not.
The muppet was quite clear that the government being involved in the negotiations would just complicate matters but if the reality is that they cannot make any offer unless the government inflation proofs their subsidy then the Union is left negotiating with a party who simply cannot say yes. Rule number one of negotiations is never do that; its just a waste of time.
On rail strikes: this is the first major one since the pandemic and the introduction of widespread flexible/hybrid working. A lot of people for whom this would previously have been a major issue (particularly office workers in SE England) will, this week, simply shrug their shoulders and WFH every day. My firm has said that the usual requirement to be in the office a minimum number of days has been cancelled, and I bet we're not the only one.
I wonder to what extent: a) the overall impact of any strike on public opinion has been reduced as a result, b) the unions realise this, and c) the Government has realised, and is actively pushing for the strike as a way of demonstrating just how irrelevant the RMT has become.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
Basically it can't be an incentive or bribe in any shape or form. Nor a quid pro quo
Precisely, hospitality is OK so long as there is no corruption or bribery involved. If there were, then that wouldn't be hospitality anymore, and it would be completely different.
MPs would of course claim they are not giving any quid pro quo in exchange for such hospitality, and its not coming from their employer, and so its legally presumably not a BiK?
If hospitality tickets were not available at sporting events, then there'd be a heck of a lot more tickets suddenly available for normal fans. Weren't half of the tickets at the Champions League final reserved for hospitality etc?
One for the PB collective, including Roger. I need to get some old film posters repaired which have some slight tears and one or two slightly more major ones. Can anyone recommend a good poster repair place in London? Also, if anyone had any ideas of good framers (ironically, I know one in Paris but not here).
I know a very good framer in Glasgow but I realise THAT’S NOT MUCH BLOODY USE. Assume you’ve done a Google but in case not:
My recent quest for a film poster about which you were helpful was fruitless. That poster is apparently thin on the ground and there’s an even rarer one for the same film out there. As an aside, the companies I contacted were really helpful and knowledgeable, presumably because they all started as enthusiasts themselves.
Thank you divvie. I have done a bit of a search but @OnlyLivingBoy has given me a specific one so I will probably use that one. Sorry to hear your own search was fruitless - if I pick up any useful information when I am getting the posters repaired, I will pass it on.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
Because they have organised themselves into a position where they have some bargaining power. It's not their fault if other workers haven't.
Absolutely my retort to anyone who claims I havent had an increase so why should they is always.
JOIN A F*******G UNION then.
Give more power to the sort of people who back Russia in the Donbass, and who now want to cause misery to millions of commuters and damage the very industry their 'people' work in?
(I'm only being semi-serious, but the Donbass nonsense is the sort of thing that gives unions *really* bad names. And that's a shame, as unions fulfil a really vital role.)
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
That's because they have nothing to offer.
The government subsidy is effectively frozen: ...Treasury minister Mr Clarke told BBC Breakfast there was "no point giving false hope" the strikes could be avoided, adding it is "important to be realistic" about the difficulty of the negotiations. "We absolutely don't want them to go ahead, I recognise this is going to cause misery for millions of people and I am profoundly sorry about that," he added. Mr Clarke also ruled out the direct involvement of government ministers in the talks and said the railway would have to "financially sustain itself"...
And the union refuses to discuss any potential restructuring before a pay settlement is agreed, which is why no talks.
There might be a middle way to be found were government prepared to be involved in talks, but they are not.
Why should the government be involved in talks?
Management and unions have a job to do in finding a pay settlement within the budget available. The government isn't involved there. The management have a budget to operate within.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
PS: Of course, PB types who are computer literate ... but compare them with those folk who need advice, or help, or specific things.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
Because they have organised themselves into a position where they have some bargaining power. It's not their fault if other workers haven't.
Or 'I'm alright Jack' as it is otherwise known.
Good luck to them is how I would put it. Any workers getting a decent pay rise will also set a precedent for other negotiations so it might well help others get a decent raise too.
And that is, in part, how inflationary spirals begin.
I don't blame the rail workers, but the evidence of the 70s is that only some groups succeed in the attempt to get large rises in times of high inflation. And it introduces a very large element of uncertainty into pay bargaining compared to low inflationary environments.
If not brought back under control quite quickly, high inflation becomes very painful for a lot of people. The financially nimble, and the wealthy (there's a large overlap there) can do quite well.
Yes but with the current inflation of 11% then even 6% is a 5% cut in real times.
I am not asking for a real terms increase, just not accepting a 9% real terms pay cut!
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.
Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.
Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.
Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Makes sense to me. All the expenses and top ups suggest they are regarded as underpaid, so the base salary being what it is is just dishonest and makes things overly complicated, which they can also abuse and claim 'confusion' about. Second jobs it is a shame to lose completely, but we clearly cannot trust them not to abuse that either, so ban it and up the salary to compensate.
Yes. The edge cases here are going to be professions that require continuous certification, such as doctors or commercial pilots, where there would be a significant cost of re-validation to the MP at the end of their term of office. There’s no harm in allowing people in these professions to work for two or three days a month, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
The government aren't involved, they aren't the management.
If the unions want an agreement they should be talking to the management, not the government.
Though perhaps the government should be saying that since the railways aren't operating or serving the purpose they're there for that the subsidies the taxpayers are paying will be reduced so there will be less money for pay settlements.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
So you think the SG and Scotrail did fairly well with the drivers with a 5% rise, at the bottom end of your range?
Reflecting on the situation with @JohnSmith reinforces the view that the Ukraine adventure is truly a bizarre misstep by Putin. Why not just continue with provocative acts that confuse people, defy explanation and can be plausibly denied? Why start a war of aggression in a moment of rage that alienates you from most of your supporters/sympathisers and is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify? I keep thinking back to Wallace's comment 'gone full tonto' and it seems he got it right.
Much of the act when these characters appear seems to be about peddling random assertions about Russia and its objectives to see which ones are viewed sympathetically by this 'educated audience'. A meme building operation.
What I don't understand is Putin (and his regime's) continued embiggening of the war aims. It started off as a limited (but b/s) attempt to denazify Ukraine and free the Russophile eastern areas (who were largely having their rights stamped on by the Russian-backed separatists).
Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.
However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.
It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
People keep falling back to what I’ve taken to calling the Kronstein Fallacy (after the chess grand master who works for Spectre) - they assume that opponents are playing ultra rational chess.
Putin actually believes in Greater Russian Nationalism. Ukraine is a part of Russia in that world view. If Russia gets infected by flabby western shit like gay rights and democracy, then it is The End Of Civilisation, to the GRN types. So Ukraine going “Western” is beyond wrong. It is End Times.
So Putin believes he is in an existential battle for The Future Of The World
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
So you think the SG and Scotrail did fairly well with the drivers with a 5% rise, at the bottom end of your range?
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
But it's not - hence the weird fare structures. And it being cheaper to travel further than your destination, buy two tickets back to back for different parts of the same route ... very much to management advantage.
As with voting, cash, and banks, this is soemthing that will disadvantage the poor, the mentally challenged, the disorganised, and the old. I wonder how far the Tories have thought this through, if (say) BigG finds he can't sort out his trip to Frome without falling foul of some arcane rule of the kind the TOCs love, because the Llandudno sdtation ticket office has been closed and the website is incomprehensible.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
The government aren't involved, they aren't the management.
If the unions want an agreement they should be talking to the management, not the government.
Though perhaps the government should be saying that since the railways aren't operating or serving the purpose they're there for that the subsidies the taxpayers are paying will be reduced so there will be less money for pay settlements.
The government are involved if what the management can offer is determined by what the government is going to pay them by way of subsidy and that seems to be the situation.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Because its not necessary to man them. You can have telephone lines, online, IT etc - plenty of systems available.
Or don't take the rail and drive, or get a coach, or a bus, or ride a bike.
Or stay at home. Or go somewhere else.
There's plenty of alternatives available that don't require rail staff draining taxpayers money.
Reflecting on the situation with @JohnSmith reinforces the view that the Ukraine adventure is truly a bizarre misstep by Putin. Why not just continue with provocative acts that confuse people, defy explanation and can be plausibly denied? Why start a war of aggression in a moment of rage that alienates you from most of your supporters/sympathisers and is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify? I keep thinking back to Wallace's comment 'gone full tonto' and it seems he got it right.
Much of the act when these characters appear seems to be about peddling random assertions about Russia and its objectives to see which ones are viewed sympathetically by this 'educated audience'. A meme building operation.
What I don't understand is Putin (and his regime's) continued embiggening of the war aims. It started off as a limited (but b/s) attempt to denazify Ukraine and free the Russophile eastern areas (who were largely having their rights stamped on by the Russian-backed separatists).
Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.
However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.
It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
People keep falling back to what I’ve taken to calling the Kronstein Fallacy (after the chess grand master who works for Spectre) - they assume that opponents are playing ultra rational chess.
Putin actually believes in Greater Russian Nationalism. Ukraine is a part of Russia in that world view. If Russia gets infected by flabby western shit like gay rights and democracy, then it is The End Of Civilisation, to the GRN types. So Ukraine going “Western” is beyond wrong. It is End Times.
So Putin believes he is in an existential battle for The Future Of The World
I understand that. But my question is why he is so open about his real aims? He's been a politician for twenty years, striding around the world's stage as a statesman. Yet suddenly he becomes a very unfunny Dr Evil.
To 'win' the war, he needs to sow disharmony amongst Ukraine's supporters. Threatening the neighboring countries so openly does exactly the opposite.
That's what I don't understand. It's as if he believes his own view so much, he expects everyone else to agree with it if he explains it well. But IMO that doesn't really fit in with his initial excuses for the war.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
PS: Of course, PB types who are computer literate ... but compare them with those folk who need advice, or help, or specific things.
I wonder why we don't move to more accessible, on-platform staff, with fewer ticket offices which are difficult to interact with for people with many types of disability.
I was deeply underwhelmed by the muppet representing the train operators on R4 this morning. Apparently, there is currently no wage offer on the table because any wage increase has to be tied to changes in working practices etc.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Yes, I heard that - astonishing. The RMT have asked for 7% - high, but below inflation. The employers have refused to say what they will offer. It's hardly surprising that the union has not backed down, with nothing on the table.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
Managers have to manage and if they think that they need to impose new work rosters on their staff that is fair enough. They should negotiate for a period of time to see if a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached and, if not, they should impose what they think is necessary for their business. I have no problem with this.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
The government aren't involved, they aren't the management.
If the unions want an agreement they should be talking to the management, not the government.
Though perhaps the government should be saying that since the railways aren't operating or serving the purpose they're there for that the subsidies the taxpayers are paying will be reduced so there will be less money for pay settlements.
The government are involved if what the management can offer is determined by what the government is going to pay them by way of subsidy and that seems to be the situation.
The government have given them a subsidy, a bloody generous subsidy.
The subsidy should be getting cut, not increased, but why should the government be involved any further? The subsidy is there, they have a budget, if they can't operate even with the subsidy they should shut down and lay off their staff and the subsidy is gone and taxpayers are no longer milked for the subsidy anymore.
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality. Rotten old business this gravy train. And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit
I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy
Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??
If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work? The scale of infrastructure investment alone to achieve that nationwide is prohibitive.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work?
That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
PS: Of course, PB types who are computer literate ... but compare them with those folk who need advice, or help, or specific things.
I have some sympathy with the view, as someone who often turned up to catch random trains depending where/when I completed a walk, and for whom pre-booking was impossible.
However: many stations do not have ticket offices. Ticket machines and even the reduced number of permits to travel machines do the job well.
Ticket offices are only really of use to those using stations that have ticket offices. Everyone else has to manage.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
PS: Of course, PB types who are computer literate ... but compare them with those folk who need advice, or help, or specific things.
I wonder why we don't move to more accessible, on-platform staff, with fewer ticket offices which are difficult to interact with for people with many types of disability.
That's de facto a decentralised ticket office. The point is that the staff can deal with that sort of issue. It's no good closing the office down if it's only replaced by a contractor who comes at 10 in the morning to swipe a mop round the bogs.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Most people are honest enough for it to work without manning. A sign saying "Fare evaders will be prosectued" and a camera (Can be a mock one even) indicating people to go through the gates will bump up the % sufficiently before you need to think about manning.
Reflecting on the situation with @JohnSmith reinforces the view that the Ukraine adventure is truly a bizarre misstep by Putin. Why not just continue with provocative acts that confuse people, defy explanation and can be plausibly denied? Why start a war of aggression in a moment of rage that alienates you from most of your supporters/sympathisers and is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify? I keep thinking back to Wallace's comment 'gone full tonto' and it seems he got it right.
Much of the act when these characters appear seems to be about peddling random assertions about Russia and its objectives to see which ones are viewed sympathetically by this 'educated audience'. A meme building operation.
What I don't understand is Putin (and his regime's) continued embiggening of the war aims. It started off as a limited (but b/s) attempt to denazify Ukraine and free the Russophile eastern areas (who were largely having their rights stamped on by the Russian-backed separatists).
Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.
However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.
It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
People keep falling back to what I’ve taken to calling the Kronstein Fallacy (after the chess grand master who works for Spectre) - they assume that opponents are playing ultra rational chess.
Putin actually believes in Greater Russian Nationalism. Ukraine is a part of Russia in that world view. If Russia gets infected by flabby western shit like gay rights and democracy, then it is The End Of Civilisation, to the GRN types. So Ukraine going “Western” is beyond wrong. It is End Times.
So Putin believes he is in an existential battle for The Future Of The World
There are two ways to explain Putin that both kind of work. The first is what you just said, the second is a dude with a huge pile of oil company shares who wants the price of oil to go up.
Relatedly:
Russia has blocked Kazakhstan from shipping oil to Europe through its port in Novorossiyk. This is seen as Russian retaliation against Kazakhstan for Kazakh President Tokayev refusing to support RU’s invasion of Ukraine
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
But it's not - hence the weird fare structures. And it being cheaper to travel further than your destination, buy two tickets back to back for different parts of the same route ... very much to management advantage.
As with voting, cash, and banks, this is soemthing that will disadvantage the poor, the mentally challenged, the disorganised, and the old. I wonder how far the Tories have thought this through, if (say) BigG finds he can't sort out his trip to Frome without falling foul of some arcane rule of the kind the TOCs love, because the Llandudno sdtation ticket office has been closed and the website is incomprehensible.
The weird price structures where it's cheaper to get a train from Darlington to Newcastle followed by Newcastle to London comes from the introduction of open access providers which result in the actual providers charging higher prices where the OAP doesn't / isn't allowed to stop.
When they were trying to change the ECML timetable last year - the suggestion that Lumo should be allowed to stop at other stations south of Newcastle was one of the reasons LNER binned their suggested changes.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work?
That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work?
That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.
Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.
Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.
Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work?
That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
They've solved that. Conductors.
Brilliant, then what's the problem?
Human beings cost money to employ.
And you need multiple conductors per train as otherwise the threat of violence is very real.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.
Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.
Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.
Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
"physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access"
They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.
Why are the rail workers a special case?
The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle. There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working. How will that work?
That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
They've solved that. Conductors.
Brilliant, then what's the problem?
Tap in tap out doesn't need manned stations. That's how Metrolink in GM works and those stations aren't manned. The incentive to buy a ticket is that if an inspector boards you present the bank card with which you tapped in. If you didn't tap in, it applies the penalty fare.
Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.
No, too soon
I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.
How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?
Ban hammer.
I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)
@JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
Rail staff are hastening their own demise. Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality. The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers. The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
But it's not - hence the weird fare structures. And it being cheaper to travel further than your destination, buy two tickets back to back for different parts of the same route ... very much to management advantage.
As with voting, cash, and banks, this is soemthing that will disadvantage the poor, the mentally challenged, the disorganised, and the old. I wonder how far the Tories have thought this through, if (say) BigG finds he can't sort out his trip to Frome without falling foul of some arcane rule of the kind the TOCs love, because the Llandudno sdtation ticket office has been closed and the website is incomprehensible.
The weird price structures where it's cheaper to get a train from Darlington to Newcastle followed by Newcastle to London comes from the introduction of open access providers which result in the actual providers charging higher prices where the OAP doesn't / isn't allowed to stop.
When they were trying to change the ECML timetable last year - the suggestion that Lumo should be allowed to stop at other stations south of Newcastle was one of the reasons LNER binned their suggested changes.
There need to be more Lumos - actual route competition between operators.
Comments
I did write about this change a few months ago.
Assume you’ve done a Google but in case not:
https://www.linen-backing.co.uk/
Hopefully Roger can provide more expert input.
My recent quest for a film poster about which you were helpful was fruitless. That poster is apparently thin on the ground and there’s an even rarer one for the same film out there. As an aside, the companies I contacted were really helpful and knowledgeable, presumably because they all started as enthusiasts themselves.
Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.
However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.
It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
If it were up to me, then I'd welcome virtually anyone who wanted to live here, but they'd be ineligible for any support. Absolutely no in work benefits, and they'd have to pay the annual fee for the NHS too. I'd merge and thus abolish benefits into the tax system with a Negative Income Tax/UBI that is payable only to citizens who live in the country.
That way virtually anyone who wants to come here is able to do so, but they must have a job that pays their own costs in full and after a few years doing so they'd be able to apply for citizenship.
So all things being equal everybody with a job should get a pay cut and pensioners and so forth should also get a pension cut. There may be some cases where group X shouldn't get cut, but in that case you need to work out who the group Y is that's going to get cut double.
Top 3% salary plus paid for accommodation (worth 30-35k on the salary) plus gold played pension plus various others is more than sufficient.
Tax on gifts received? Hmmm.
That seems more relevant, thank you.
(There are rumours that someone has clobbered it again.)
(Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks, and on Centre Court for the Wimbledon final).
Isn't that precisely why so many hospitality packages are available with sporting events? Because its quite readily possible to design the relationship in a way to avoid it being classed as a BiK?
I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.
The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
Lammy the luxurious.
JOIN A F*******G UNION then.
https://www.handpickedaccountants.co.uk/articles/general/understanding-allowable-expenses-with-corporate-hospitality-and-business-meals
I don't blame the rail workers, but the evidence of the 70s is that only some groups succeed in the attempt to get large rises in times of high inflation. And it introduces a very large element of uncertainty into pay bargaining compared to low inflationary environments.
If not brought back under control quite quickly, high inflation becomes very painful for a lot of people. The financially nimble, and the wealthy (there's a large overlap there) can do quite well.
I repeat, the day before a national rail strike, there is no offer on the table. ....
Still can't quite believe it.
Edit to add - the train operators are being asked to find £bns in cost savings. Any large wage increase significantly increases the amount of costs they need to find and cut.
And as with schools most of the fat has already been cut so what's left is which arm / leg do you wish to remove and how carefully.
Tie Pensions to public sector pay increases, backdated to 2010 and we would soon get a change of attitude from the selfish Golden Generation.
Basically it can't be an incentive or bribe in any shape or form. Nor a quid pro quo
No offer on the table. It's just incredible.
But the strike isn't just about wages - it's about cuts and the impact those cuts will have on safety.
The government subsidy is effectively frozen:
...Treasury minister Mr Clarke told BBC Breakfast there was "no point giving false hope" the strikes could be avoided, adding it is "important to be realistic" about the difficulty of the negotiations.
"We absolutely don't want them to go ahead, I recognise this is going to cause misery for millions of people and I am profoundly sorry about that," he added.
Mr Clarke also ruled out the direct involvement of government ministers in the talks and said the railway would have to "financially sustain itself"...
And the union refuses to discuss any potential restructuring before a pay settlement is agreed, which is why no talks.
There might be a middle way to be found were government prepared to be involved in talks, but they are not.
pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. We'll be waiting a while.
Possible re-election of Trump is. Happening.
I reckon a settlement of around 5% could be agreed, not unreasonable. But for some reason neither the government nor the employers seem interested in a settlement.
I'm old enough to remember the halcyon days when the government and its supporters were lauding the return of a high wage economy that would level up, post Brexit and Covid. However, that seems to have somewhat run out of steam once the lorry drivers and a few other groups had been paid off.
The Government via Network Rail ? Virgin trains ? DB Schenke ?
I wonder to what extent:
a) the overall impact of any strike on public opinion has been reduced as a result,
b) the unions realise this, and
c) the Government has realised, and is actively pushing for the strike as a way of demonstrating just how irrelevant the RMT has become.
MPs would of course claim they are not giving any quid pro quo in exchange for such hospitality, and its not coming from their employer, and so its legally presumably not a BiK?
If hospitality tickets were not available at sporting events, then there'd be a heck of a lot more tickets suddenly available for normal fans. Weren't half of the tickets at the Champions League final reserved for hospitality etc?
(I'm only being semi-serious, but the Donbass nonsense is the sort of thing that gives unions *really* bad names. And that's a shame, as unions fulfil a really vital role.)
Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill
Management and unions have a job to do in finding a pay settlement within the budget available. The government isn't involved there. The management have a budget to operate within.
PS: Of course, PB types who are computer literate ... but compare them with those folk who need advice, or help, or specific things.
What I do have a problem with is refusing to discuss a wage increase at a time of 9% inflation. That is just unacceptable. And to try to pretend that the Union is being unreasonable about this is just dishonest. A settlement between 5 and 7% in the present situation is there for the taking at which point the specific proposals for managing the business can be made.
The government wants a fight. No other conclusion is possible. Shame on them.
I am not asking for a real terms increase, just not accepting a 9% real terms pay cut!
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).
Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.
Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.
Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
If the unions want an agreement they should be talking to the management, not the government.
Though perhaps the government should be saying that since the railways aren't operating or serving the purpose they're there for that the subsidies the taxpayers are paying will be reduced so there will be less money for pay settlements.
Putin actually believes in Greater Russian Nationalism. Ukraine is a part of Russia in that world view. If Russia gets infected by flabby western shit like gay rights and democracy, then it is The End Of Civilisation, to the GRN types. So Ukraine going “Western” is beyond wrong. It is End Times.
So Putin believes he is in an existential battle for The Future Of The World
As with voting, cash, and banks, this is soemthing that will disadvantage the poor, the mentally challenged, the disorganised, and the old. I wonder how far the Tories have thought this through, if (say) BigG finds he can't sort out his trip to Frome without falling foul of some arcane rule of the kind the TOCs love, because the Llandudno sdtation ticket office has been closed and the website is incomprehensible.
At present striking workers are protected from dismissal for months of strike action. That isn't a free market.
And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
Or don't take the rail and drive, or get a coach, or a bus, or ride a bike.
Or stay at home. Or go somewhere else.
There's plenty of alternatives available that don't require rail staff draining taxpayers money.
To 'win' the war, he needs to sow disharmony amongst Ukraine's supporters. Threatening the neighboring countries so openly does exactly the opposite.
That's what I don't understand. It's as if he believes his own view so much, he expects everyone else to agree with it if he explains it well. But IMO that doesn't really fit in with his initial excuses for the war.
The subsidy should be getting cut, not increased, but why should the government be involved any further? The subsidy is there, they have a budget, if they can't operate even with the subsidy they should shut down and lay off their staff and the subsidy is gone and taxpayers are no longer milked for the subsidy anymore.
There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working.
How will that work?
The scale of infrastructure investment alone to achieve that nationwide is prohibitive.
If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
I don't expect much of a pay rise (University) but love my job, so will be staying. I'm pretty well rewarded for what I do.
However: many stations do not have ticket offices. Ticket machines and even the reduced number of permits to travel machines do the job well.
Ticket offices are only really of use to those using stations that have ticket offices. Everyone else has to manage.
Relatedly:
When they were trying to change the ECML timetable last year - the suggestion that Lumo should be allowed to stop at other stations south of Newcastle was one of the reasons LNER binned their suggested changes.
Took me back...
And you need multiple conductors per train as otherwise the threat of violence is very real.
Er ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI8mXzEJFfE.