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Can that elusive CON poll lead come in June or July? – politicalbetting.com

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  • eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    BiB: This is the root of the problem.

    Privatisation was mismanaged, it should have led to the abolition of subsidies but didn't.

    Japan has a highly developed rail network mostly operating without any subsidies. Subsidies should only exist for eg very rural routes etc if they provide a strategic reason they should be open but aren't viable otherwise.

    Rail staff wages should be entirely paid for by rail customers ticket prices, and other associated related revenues. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing businesses to succeed or fail.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
    One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
    That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...

    And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
    Yes. There is one (very intermittently) manned station between Newcastle and Carlisle.
    There are no barriers anywhere, apart from Newcastle. Many stations don't even have ticket machines, and, if they do, only one, which often isn't working.
    How will that work?
    That's managements responsibility to sort out, isn't it?

    If they're incapable of getting money from their customers, then that's on them to make ends meet.
    They've solved that. Conductors.
    Brilliant, then what's the problem?
    There isn't one. I'm merely pointing out how we can't run a rural railway as if it were Central London, that's all.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,176
    Sandpit said:

    If I get offered a below inflation pay rise I will leave

    The free market in action.
    The free market is profoundly inefficient if it treats people as exchangeable goods.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    At least we can now analyse objectively the differences between a winter of discontent and a summer of discontent.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
    One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
    But it's not - hence the weird fare structures. And it being cheaper to travel further than your destination, buy two tickets back to back for different parts of the same route ... very much to management advantage.

    As with voting, cash, and banks, this is soemthing that will disadvantage the poor, the mentally challenged, the disorganised, and the old. I wonder how far the Tories have thought this through, if (say) BigG finds he can't sort out his trip to Frome without falling foul of some arcane rule of the kind the TOCs love, because the Llandudno sdtation ticket office has been closed and the website is incomprehensible.
    The weird price structures where it's cheaper to get a train from Darlington to Newcastle followed by Newcastle to London comes from the introduction of open access providers which result in the actual providers charging higher prices where the OAP doesn't / isn't allowed to stop.

    When they were trying to change the ECML timetable last year - the suggestion that Lumo should be allowed to stop at other stations south of Newcastle was one of the reasons LNER binned their suggested changes.
    There need to be more Lumos - actual route competition between operators.
    I'm a fan of Open Access. It's a good idea, although very hamstrung.

    But Lumo has not had a particularly good start, with the incident at Peterborough earlier in the year.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    Indeed. DLR and other driverless systems out there run in tunnels or on viaducts, so it’s physically almost impossible for a person or vehicle to end up on the track. They also have platform doors (except the DLR) to stop people entering the track at stations.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    That only works on simple commuter cattle railways. You need ticket offices for proper railways.
    One thing the underground has got right is the fare structure. Tap in, tap out should be nationwide imo.
    That's not a fare structure - that's a payment mechanism...

    And it requires stations to be manned 100% of the time - which isn't the case at many rural railway stations.
    And further to my earlier comment, it sort of is a fare structure - basically a guarantee that you will pay the cheapest price for the journeys you made that day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    "physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access"

    Er ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI8mXzEJFfE.
    Whether the train has a driver or not doesn't change the outcome for level crossing bandits.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    BiB: This is the root of the problem.

    Privatisation was mismanaged, it should have led to the abolition of subsidies but didn't.

    Japan has a highly developed rail network mostly operating without any subsidies. Subsidies should only exist for eg very rural routes etc if they provide a strategic reason they should be open but aren't viable otherwise.

    Rail staff wages should be entirely paid for by rail customers ticket prices, and other associated related revenues. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing businesses to succeed or fail.
    Parts of the rail network are vastly profitable - otherwise the Open Access Providers wouldn't run long distance services from the North into London.

    The issue is that local short distance networks aren't profitable yet MPs love them and wish for more to be built. Heck round here the current Sedgefield MP wants a station opened at Ferryhill (population 10,000) to provide services to Teesside.

    I suspect the number of commuters wanting an hourly service from Ferryhill to Boro is about 0.01% and that's probably generous.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    edited June 2022
    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and braking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549
    The railways need to evolve, as all industries do.

    But the fictional controversy over Driver-Only Operation, along with historic once such as secondmanning, highlights that the railway unions are generally rather resistant to change.

    (Secondmanning was only ended in 1996, ffs)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    The PM has had an operation under general anaesthetic.
    The nuclear button was in the hands of Raab this morning.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,235
    edited June 2022
    Hmm. I've been wondering why the flat above me has recently become the source of various weird and continually annoying noises: slams, scrapes, pops, noises of things sliding on wheels. I bet they've installed one of these sodding 'utility rooms':

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jun/20/its-a-middle-class-dream-come-true-how-the-utility-room-became-the-new-status-symbol
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    edited June 2022

    mwadams said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    The entire UK population and the population of the western world are about to get a cut in living standards on average (hopefully short-lived). This is inevitable given the impact of the epidemic, the war in Europe, the energy crisis, de-carbonising society and correcting the loose money supply that went on too long (but might have to be eased again ironically). All governments can do is try to minimise and spread fairly. A sensible government would be levelling with the public and not spreading fairy tales. It would actually be in their political interest to do so. Should a group of workers use their position within a key infrastructure to extort protection of their living standards at the expense of the rest of the population? Diverting the issue on to axing the rich more won't wash. It won't make much difference and if taken too far might make things worse.
    It could be argued that these "managing decline" situations are exactly when a bit of redistribution helps. The top 0.1% could weather a proportional extra squeeze, perhaps? In reality, they will probably be allowed to aggregate a higher proportion of the available wealth.
    I agree with more redistribution, but in my opinion that won't change the overall picture much. I wouldn't use the phrase "managing the decline" as it implies a long term trend. I'm optimistic for prospects in a year or two assuming stupid political decisions don't put a spanner in the works. Brexit might mean a relative decline for UK but pretty sure we'll be seeing growing wealth in the West if/when Russia vanquished. Possible re-election of Trump is a bit of a Russian Roulette situation though.
    Trump coming back is one of the very darkest clouds in the sky. It threatens much more than a heavy shower. Any political punditry seeking to look forward beyond a year that fails to work it in as a risk factor does not imo merit the term punditry.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    "physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access"

    Er ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI8mXzEJFfE.
    Whether the train has a driver or not doesn't change the outcome for level crossing bandits.
    Indeed, suicide-by-train is very common and train drivers are rightly sometimes off for months afterwards, on full pay, in order to preserve their own mental health and process what happened.

    Presumably driverless trains don't need to take months off to process what happened when someone does that, and there isn't someone left with the emotional trauma of seeing and knowing what happened while they were driving and wrongly feeling guilty over something they had absolutely no control over.

    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/what-happens-train-drivers-who-13463775
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    It's like automated cars: working 99% of the time is not a problem. Working 99.9% of the time is generally possible. But they need to work 99.99999% of the time. And that is when there are problems.

    Besides, there is a difference between 'driverless' trains and 'unstaffed' trains. The DLR is driverless, but the trains are *not* unstaffed. And those train captains/conductors still require wages.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lammy apparently has four investigations into him opened on Wednesday last week. More footy game freebies! Failure to declare earnings from speeches on black history month. 'Overseas trips', gifts and hospitality.
    Rotten old business this gravy train.
    And, in the interests of balance, Boris and the mouth full of teeth can do one for yet more dodgy shit

    I really need the LD leader to have a financial impropriety so i can call him Sir Ed Gravy

    Half of me thinks we should double MP pay, ban them from working elsewhere, and tax them on gifts received, as would be the case with any other employer. If you take a £1000 sporting event ticket as a gift, you pay £450 tax on it.
    Wait what they don't pay tax on benefits in kind ?
    Nope, but they do have to declare it. Yet another example of MPs choosing to exempt themselves from the rules everyone else has to follow.

    (Watches out for all the MPs with £4k Paddock Club tickets at Silverstone in a couple of weeks).
    Hang on. The Rt Hon Mp for Molesting-in-the-Swamp gets given a pressie worth £x simply because he is a MP. But he doesn't pay tax on that? Have I got that right??

    If a supplier takes me to Anfield on a hospitality package then do I need to declare it as a BiK?

    I thought only employers gifts to employees get declared, hence hospitality is normally between suppliers and clients etc and that's not a BiK.

    The problem is that the MPs are treating themselves as others clients, which is somewhat concerning, but that's why it gets declared.
    I’m not an accountant, but there are quite tight rules on what’s allowed.
    https://www.handpickedaccountants.co.uk/articles/general/understanding-allowable-expenses-with-corporate-hospitality-and-business-meals
    I go for the source https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim21837#:~:text=Section 265, 266(1),of their family or household.

    Basically it can't be an incentive or bribe in any shape or form. Nor a quid pro quo
    Why do MPs get so many freebies then ?
    People just love to give them gifts out of the goodness of their hearts.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    BiB: This is the root of the problem.

    Privatisation was mismanaged, it should have led to the abolition of subsidies but didn't.

    Japan has a highly developed rail network mostly operating without any subsidies. Subsidies should only exist for eg very rural routes etc if they provide a strategic reason they should be open but aren't viable otherwise.

    Rail staff wages should be entirely paid for by rail customers ticket prices, and other associated related revenues. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing businesses to succeed or fail.
    Parts of the rail network are vastly profitable - otherwise the Open Access Providers wouldn't run long distance services from the North into London.

    The issue is that local short distance networks aren't profitable yet MPs love them and wish for more to be built. Heck round here the current Sedgefield MP wants a station opened at Ferryhill (population 10,000) to provide services to Teesside.

    I suspect the number of commuters wanting an hourly service from Ferryhill to Boro is about 0.01% and that's probably generous.
    If the local short distances aren't profitable, then the government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing winners and losers.

    The Japanese manage a highly efficient rail system, mostly without subsidies. We should do the same.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited June 2022
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    Indeed. DLR and other driverless systems out there run in tunnels or on viaducts, so it’s physically almost impossible for a person or vehicle to end up on the track. They also have platform doors (except the DLR) to stop people entering the track at stations.
    We had this exact same conversation last week when someone talked about Copenhagen's Metro.

    Again a very modern system built to reach GoA4 standards - which is fine if you are stating from a completely new start with tunnels (existing built areas) and viaducts (above new wide cycleways next to the roads heading towards new suburbs).

    Yet the person who started the thread believed it was all at ground level when literally none of it is.
  • Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549
    Pulpstar said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    "physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access"

    Er ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI8mXzEJFfE.
    Whether the train has a driver or not doesn't change the outcome for level crossing bandits.
    Oh, it sometimes does. Mark-I eyeball is still a valuable tool.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    If I get offered a below inflation pay rise I will leave

    The free market in action.
    The free market is profoundly inefficient if it treats people as exchangeable goods.

    People are not exchangeable goods, that was outlawed some time ago. The skills that the people have, on the other hand, are very much exchangeable goods. You provide work, your boss provides money.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,549

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    Listen, I'm going to get really pi**ed off if you shatter my illusions.

    Nest you'll be telling me that Leon doesn't actually knap flints...
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    Yes, and the reasons behind that really do need some examining.

    I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the mega rich are too rich relative to the rest of us, but as to how to spread the love more widely, well....there's the rub.
  • Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    Listen, I'm going to get really pi**ed off if you shatter my illusions.

    Nest you'll be telling me that Leon doesn't actually knap flints...
    At least some things remain factual.

    JackW is 130 years old.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    BiB: This is the root of the problem.

    Privatisation was mismanaged, it should have led to the abolition of subsidies but didn't.

    Japan has a highly developed rail network mostly operating without any subsidies. Subsidies should only exist for eg very rural routes etc if they provide a strategic reason they should be open but aren't viable otherwise.

    Rail staff wages should be entirely paid for by rail customers ticket prices, and other associated related revenues. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing businesses to succeed or fail.
    Parts of the rail network are vastly profitable - otherwise the Open Access Providers wouldn't run long distance services from the North into London.

    The issue is that local short distance networks aren't profitable yet MPs love them and wish for more to be built. Heck round here the current Sedgefield MP wants a station opened at Ferryhill (population 10,000) to provide services to Teesside.

    I suspect the number of commuters wanting an hourly service from Ferryhill to Boro is about 0.01% and that's probably generous.
    If the local short distances aren't profitable, then the government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing winners and losers.

    The Japanese manage a highly efficient rail system, mostly without subsidies. We should do the same.
    But votes - and the Sedgefield MP sadly doesn't have a large town where money can be spent so he needs something before 2024 and this train station is his only hope.

    As for Japan the reason the railways are profitable is because all the rail companies have a combination of profitable long haul and unprofitable short haul routes.

    We separated the long distance routes off (and sold them to train operates for very large annual fees to the Government) so in theory the long haul routes were subsidising the short distance routes just on an overall basis rather than at an individual company level).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    I am not a Carter USM song.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    Few are more cynical about technological hype than I am and I too have a background in software development. Ubiquitous driverless cars are probably a long way into the future except in limited applications like campuses and perhaps some low speed urban settings but the technical challenge of driverless cars is surely an order of magnitude more challenging than driverless trains? There would have to be a thorough upgrade to the rail infrastructure and a lot of technical redundancy plus care over threats ofsabotage etc. but current technology is capable of delivering if the investment was made.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    Yes, and the reasons behind that really do need some examining.

    I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the mega rich are too rich relative to the rest of us, but as to how to spread the love more widely, well....there's the rub.
    Smashing the unions had a lot to do with it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,316
    The Oldham grooming report is out. Pretty grim


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexually-exploited-children-oldham-were-24270470


    If you read the actual report, there are two striking things (amongst others).

    1. The council tried to cover up the use of "shisha bars" for exploitation, and told a BBC journalist not to write about it, because of the "Lee Rigby murder" and the way the news might be used by "far right groups". So the pubic were not alerted to the danger of these places

    2. When confronted by their failings (such as this) Oldham Council's excuse is often "Well we're nowhere near as bad as other northern towns around us". No joke, that's what they say

    Not a fun story

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    Indeed. DLR and other driverless systems out there run in tunnels or on viaducts, so it’s physically almost impossible for a person or vehicle to end up on the track. They also have platform doors (except the DLR) to stop people entering the track at stations.
    We had this exact same conversation last week when someone talked about Copenhagen's Metro.

    Again a very modern system built to reach GoA4 standards - which is fine if you are stating from a completely new start with tunnels (existing built areas) and viaducts (above new wide cycleways next to the roads heading towards new suburbs).

    Yet the person who started the thread believed it was all at ground level when literally none of it is.
    It’s the same where I am, I can see half a dozen Metro stations from my office window. They’re easy to spot because they’re 10m off the ground for most of the route, and underground through the dense city centre. Driverless, but not completely unmanned, they do have a train captain - and a few ticket inspectors.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited June 2022
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    That's a lot more limiting for some of us than others.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    BiB: This is the root of the problem.

    Privatisation was mismanaged, it should have led to the abolition of subsidies but didn't.

    Japan has a highly developed rail network mostly operating without any subsidies. Subsidies should only exist for eg very rural routes etc if they provide a strategic reason they should be open but aren't viable otherwise.

    Rail staff wages should be entirely paid for by rail customers ticket prices, and other associated related revenues. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing businesses to succeed or fail.
    Parts of the rail network are vastly profitable - otherwise the Open Access Providers wouldn't run long distance services from the North into London.

    The issue is that local short distance networks aren't profitable yet MPs love them and wish for more to be built. Heck round here the current Sedgefield MP wants a station opened at Ferryhill (population 10,000) to provide services to Teesside.

    I suspect the number of commuters wanting an hourly service from Ferryhill to Boro is about 0.01% and that's probably generous.
    If the local short distances aren't profitable, then the government shouldn't be in the business of picking and choosing winners and losers.

    The Japanese manage a highly efficient rail system, mostly without subsidies. We should do the same.
    But votes - and the Sedgefield MP sadly doesn't have a large town where money can be spent so he needs something before 2024 and this train station is his only hope.

    As for Japan the reason the railways are profitable is because all the rail companies have a combination of profitable long haul and unprofitable short haul routes.

    We separated the long distance routes off (and sold them to train operates for very large annual fees to the Government) so in theory the long haul routes were subsidising the short distance routes just on an overall basis rather than at an individual company level).
    Lack of a railway service was a big issue in at least two other surprise Tory wins I am familiar with, too. Blyth Valley and Leigh.
    Looks like Blyth might get it. It helps there already is a functional railway line. Just no stations for decades.
    As for Leigh, it isn't any easier to magic up a train line than to create a Council that doesn't labour under the oppressive yoke of the Metropolitan elite of Wigan.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2022

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    I am not a Carter USM song.
    But are you from New Cross?

    I’m not a sandpit, but I do live in one.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    Sandpit said:

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    I am not a Carter USM song.
    But are you from New Cross?

    I’m not a sandpit, but I do live in one.
    I do indeed live in SE14.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    Few are more cynical about technological hype than I am and I too have a background in software development. Ubiquitous driverless cars are probably a long way into the future except in limited applications like campuses and perhaps some low speed urban settings but the technical challenge of driverless cars is surely an order of magnitude more challenging than driverless trains? There would have to be a thorough upgrade to the rail infrastructure and a lot of technical redundancy plus care over threats ofsabotage etc. but current technology is capable of delivering if the investment was made.
    You've hit the nub.
    We prefer cheap sticking plaster solutions in this country.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    Yes, and the reasons behind that really do need some examining.

    I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the mega rich are too rich relative to the rest of us, but as to how to spread the love more widely, well....there's the rub.
    Smashing the unions had a lot to do with it.
    ''Britain would not be struggling to fill vacancies we have, and at the same time obliging employers to compete intensely for labour, if we were still in the European Union.''

    Discuss.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Leon said:

    The Oldham grooming report is out. Pretty grim


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexually-exploited-children-oldham-were-24270470


    If you read the actual report, there are two striking things (amongst others).

    1. The council tried to cover up the use of "shisha bars" for exploitation, and told a BBC journalist not to write about it, because of the "Lee Rigby murder" and the way the news might be used by "far right groups". So the pubic were not alerted to the danger of these places

    Sounds like a classic case of when people are so worried about potential overreaction that they fail to actually react in the first place.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    I have always wondered why the TUC doesn't sell its Great Russell Street headquarters for zillions and move to, say, Hartlepool.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited June 2022

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    I don't believe you. I don't know how you escaped - though i note wikipedia states your body was never found - let alone discovered immortality, but one day i shall see you hang for your crimes Black Bart!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    You mean you met him in The Club Bar at The Bloomsbury Hotel? That was more his style. ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    Few are more cynical about technological hype than I am and I too have a background in software development. Ubiquitous driverless cars are probably a long way into the future except in limited applications like campuses and perhaps some low speed urban settings but the technical challenge of driverless cars is surely an order of magnitude more challenging than driverless trains? There would have to be a thorough upgrade to the rail infrastructure and a lot of technical redundancy plus care over threats ofsabotage etc. but current technology is capable of delivering if the investment was made.
    Cost to get Elizabeth line trains running on existing tracks £2bn from memory.

    £2bn pays for an awful lot of train drivers even after the RMT have kept their wages sky high.

    Again if you had read the London Reconnections article I linked to you would see the issue is one of rapidly diminishing savings against very rapidly increasing costs for limited subsequent savings.

    Which is why even though the Victoria line is the oldest automated line in the world it still has a train "driver" because someone needs to be in the front of the train watching for issues.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,235
    Leon said:

    The Oldham grooming report is out. Pretty grim


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexually-exploited-children-oldham-were-24270470


    If you read the actual report, there are two striking things (amongst others).

    1. The council tried to cover up the use of "shisha bars" for exploitation, and told a BBC journalist not to write about it, because of the "Lee Rigby murder" and the way the news might be used by "far right groups". So the pubic were not alerted to the danger of these places

    2. When confronted by their failings (such as this) Oldham Council's excuse is often "Well we're nowhere near as bad as other northern towns around us". No joke, that's what they say

    Not a fun story

    But where does it leave the big, big, big allegation - that a raft of authorities deliberately covered up these crimes for politically correct reasons, because it would be seen as racist to accuse Asian men of child abuse?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    Few are more cynical about technological hype than I am and I too have a background in software development. Ubiquitous driverless cars are probably a long way into the future except in limited applications like campuses and perhaps some low speed urban settings but the technical challenge of driverless cars is surely an order of magnitude more challenging than driverless trains? There would have to be a thorough upgrade to the rail infrastructure and a lot of technical redundancy plus care over threats ofsabotage etc. but current technology is capable of delivering if the investment was made.
    You've hit the nub.
    We prefer cheap sticking plaster solutions in this country.
    I could think of a lot better uses of any available money than wasting it on removing the last human being from a service. It's very much a case of the last 5% saving isn't worth the 100% in initial outlay costs.



  • kle4 said:

    Pensfold said:

    JohnSmith said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hello @PBModerator are we going to ban the latest pro-putin sock puppet @JohnSmith? As he's just posted in support of soldiers raping women and girls I think its time for the ban hammer.

    No, too soon


    I am 95% sure he is a Russian bot (“John Smith” - really?) but he hasn’t said anything that merits a ban, yet. Let him speak, until that happens
    I'm pro free speech but endorsing the rape of women crosses the line and merits it for me @PBModerator
    A world of agree. That comment was the very worst possible. Rape as a weapon of war is disgusting, appalling and profoundly wrong. "JohnSmith" supports the "denazification" of Ukraine.

    How does raping women and girls achieve this? Are they having the nazi raped out of them?

    Ban hammer.
    I’m not going to defend this Putinist shmuck but I will defend PB’s commitment to free speech to my dying breath (well almost)

    @JohnSmith has not said the things you claim. Go back and read
    Yes he has. Says that rape claims are made up. Direct support for the rapes which are actually being committed by denying their existence.
    At least be honest why you want me banned.
    Because John Smith is an alias.
    No, that's not enough. My real name isn't Turbotubbs either...
    And I am not a 19th Century engineer...
    Sorry to disappoint, but I am not an 18th Century pirate ...
    I don't believe you. I don't know how you escaped, though i note wikipedia states your body was never found, let alone discovered immortality, but one day i shall see you hang for your crimes Black Bart!
    For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it. Too long I've been starving to death and haven't died. I feel nothing. Not the wind on my face nor the spray of the sea. Nor the warmth of a woman's flesh. You best start believing in ghost stories, kle4 ... you're in one!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fzXmJyolfY
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    I wonder what can be up with BJ's sinuses? Inhaled a bit too much cordite on his Ukraine visits maybe.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,633

    Hmm. I've been wondering why the flat above me has recently become the source of various weird and continually annoying noises: slams, scrapes, pops, noises of things sliding on wheels. I bet they've installed one of these sodding 'utility rooms':

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jun/20/its-a-middle-class-dream-come-true-how-the-utility-room-became-the-new-status-symbol

    The utility room is a reaction to the previous trend of ripping out every single partition and wall in your home, along with all the cupboards.

    So you end up with a pile of coats and boots next to the front door, the washing drying on every radiator and in the bathroom, and the washing machine itself drowning out conversation at diner. Along with a pile of washing in the kitchen/dining room.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    Yes, and the reasons behind that really do need some examining.

    I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the mega rich are too rich relative to the rest of us, but as to how to spread the love more widely, well....there's the rub.
    Smashing the unions had a lot to do with it.
    On which point I wonder if Johnson now fancies a bit of Thatcher cosplay at home to go with the Churchill abroad. Thinks that would boost his ratings as well as being great fun. It's one explanation of why he seems to want a big face-off with the unions rather than working for a settlement to avoid it. One would hope that's not the plan but increasingly I find the best way to understand this government is through the prism of the strange personality of the man leading it.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,410
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    I have always wondered why the TUC doesn't sell its Great Russell Street headquarters for zillions and move to, say, Hartlepool.
    Is the DFT HQ in Hartlepool? Are the franchise companies run from Hartlepool? Are a plurality of TUC members in Hartlepool?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,287
    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    If anyone's wondering, I'm not going on strike, and will continue to offer F1 tips.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865
    But I *am* a mountain in Borneo. :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    I know it’s about criminal defence and legal aid, which pay little and are vitally important - but rich people in wigs are unlikely to garner much public sympathy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    Care to tell me how the bit in bold actually works.

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ will tell you everything anyone needs to know about how it's a complete myth unless you are starting from scratch (and even then it may not make sense).

    Heck Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Croydon have all introduced Trams since the DLR was built - but none of them are driverless. For the same reason you can't make our rail network driverless when it's easily accessibly by people.

    Only if a track is completely inaccessible to human beings is a driverless network plausible.

    Oh and train prices are set centrally based on a formula from the 70s (from memory) and are completely separate to costs because the network runs at a loss anyway.
    I don't pretend to be an expert but driverless trains are much easier to achieve than driverless trams. Trains run on physically isolated systems with control over all signalling, junctions and access.
    But our rail network isn't isolated... It mainly runs at ground level separated at best by an easy to climb over barrier...
    I'm referring to the difference between trams that run on city roads with other (unpredictable) traffic and railways. Detecting a person or object on the line and breaking is a trivial technical task and the system would react quicker than a human.
    I really don't think it is - but then again I work in IT so actually have a clue/

    Equally I don't post on topics I know nothing about unlike a lot of others here...
    Few are more cynical about technological hype than I am and I too have a background in software development. Ubiquitous driverless cars are probably a long way into the future except in limited applications like campuses and perhaps some low speed urban settings but the technical challenge of driverless cars is surely an order of magnitude more challenging than driverless trains? There would have to be a thorough upgrade to the rail infrastructure and a lot of technical redundancy plus care over threats ofsabotage etc. but current technology is capable of delivering if the investment was made.
    You've hit the nub.
    We prefer cheap sticking plaster solutions in this country.
    I could think of a lot better uses of any available money than wasting it on removing the last human being from a service. It's very much a case of the last 5% saving isn't worth the 100% in initial outlay costs.



    Well indeed. I was commenting more in the round as to the attitudes of successive governments in general across a range of services. We are concerned with getting to the next election. And obsessed with ownership structures.
    And also centrally driven ideas which treat everywhere to one size fits all policies.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    Criminal Barristers - and being blunt I'm surprised it's taken them so long...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    Redmolotov do a great T shirt Quote from Crow

    https://www.redmolotov.com/bob-crow-tshirt
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    I know it’s about criminal defence and legal aid, which pay little and are vitally important - but rich people in wigs are unlikely to garner much public sympathy.
    If only those people were rich - it's another fallacy where the 1% or so at the very top of their profession mask the true wages of everyone else.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    NASUWT planning a ballot.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    The train operators are beyond useless, as proved by their amateurishness in this dispute. DavidL is right.

    The franchises cannot go soon enough. Some credit has to go to Grant Shapps / Michael Green for finally having the cojones to abolish this utterly stupid system.

    Meanwhile, that famous leftwinger Peter Hitchens is calling for full blown renationalisation.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10921277/PETER-HITCHENS-stupidity-ministers-train-firms-wrecked-railways-not-unions.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    I know it’s about criminal defence and legal aid, which pay little and are vitally important - but rich people in wigs are unlikely to garner much public sympathy.
    A shame, as the underfunding of the whole justice system, and legal aid cuts, appears to have been a complete screw up and counterproductive 'saving'. A longstanding, slow moving car wreck with severe consequences.

    But as you say people wont care.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, aye, the judicial system is one area where spending more would make an obvious and real difference, and the short term fundraising by flogging off courts and the like was just idiotic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,287

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    20% inflation as well.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited June 2022
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    I know it’s about criminal defence and legal aid, which pay little and are vitally important - but rich people in wigs are unlikely to garner much public sympathy.
    A shame, as the underfunding of the whole justice system, and legal aid cuts, appears to have been a complete screw up and counterproductive 'saving'. A longstanding, slow moving car wreck with severe consequences.

    But as you say people wont care.
    From what I've read one of the big problems is that the barrister does the preparation for the case only for it to be cancelled at the last minute and rescheduled for a time when they are already booked - hence a lot of work done for zero money.

    Add rates that haven't changed in nearly a decade and you can see why legal aid is something most lawyers and barristers are running away from rather than entering...
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,235
    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    Yes, and the reasons behind that really do need some examining.

    I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the mega rich are too rich relative to the rest of us, but as to how to spread the love more widely, well....there's the rub.
    Smashing the unions had a lot to do with it.
    On which point I wonder if Johnson now fancies a bit of Thatcher cosplay at home to go with the Churchill abroad. Thinks that would boost his ratings as well as being great fun. It's one explanation of why he seems to want a big face-off with the unions rather than working for a settlement to avoid it. One would hope that's not the plan but increasingly I find the best way to understand this government is through the prism of the strange personality of the man leading it.
    Sir Keir, in a notably beseeching tone, was making the same point yesterday. He knows that a Boris showdown with militant unions will do wonders to shore up the Blue Wall, especially if the Tories can portray Sir Keir himself as a union puppet. Sir Keir is rightly nervous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited June 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Barristers are the latest to threaten to go on strike.

    I know it’s about criminal defence and legal aid, which pay little and are vitally important - but rich people in wigs are unlikely to garner much public sympathy.
    The average criminal barrister earns less than the average tube driver now, especially taking account of chambers fees, travel costs etc. It is only QCs at the criminal bar who earn the big bucks
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    kinabalu said:

    But I *am* a mountain in Borneo. :smile:

    In the era of self ID, we are all whoever we want to be. :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Mr. kle4, aye, the judicial system is one area where spending more would make an obvious and real difference, and the short term fundraising by flogging off courts and the like was just idiotic.

    Wouldn't even be that much as far as government spending goes. I feel like there must be something I am missing because it just looks mid bogglingly self defeating what has happened.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,287
    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865

    The train operators are beyond useless, as proved by their amateurishness in this dispute. DavidL is right.

    The franchises cannot go soon enough. Some credit has to go to Grant Shapps / Michael Green for finally having the cojones to abolish this utterly stupid system.

    Meanwhile, that famous leftwinger Peter Hitchens is calling for full blown renationalisation.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10921277/PETER-HITCHENS-stupidity-ministers-train-firms-wrecked-railways-not-unions.html

    It's a view. But "meanwhile" is doing some heavy lifting there - so colour me skeptical.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169

    Hmm. I've been wondering why the flat above me has recently become the source of various weird and continually annoying noises: slams, scrapes, pops, noises of things sliding on wheels. I bet they've installed one of these sodding 'utility rooms':

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jun/20/its-a-middle-class-dream-come-true-how-the-utility-room-became-the-new-status-symbol

    The utility room is a reaction to the previous trend of ripping out every single partition and wall in your home, along with all the cupboards.

    So you end up with a pile of coats and boots next to the front door, the washing drying on every radiator and in the bathroom, and the washing machine itself drowning out conversation at diner. Along with a pile of washing in the kitchen/dining room.

    Yes, the functional but ugly rooms in houses are overdue a renaissance. Spacious utility rooms, laundry rooms with space for the ironing board and storage for bed linen, porches or boot rooms for the dirty shoes and pet bowls, garages, lofts, generously sized studies with plenty of filing space, the walk in toy cupboard in the child's bedroom, and finally the cloakroom next to the front door.

    A house with all of these is a tidy house.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Andy_JS said:

    MISTY said:

    franklyn said:

    Rail staff are hastening their own demise.
    Ticket offices will be closing from September (as they have done years ago on the London Underground). Driverless trains are perfectly viable, as on the Docklands Light Railway, which has never had a fatality.
    The present system is massively overstaffed and full of restrictive practices. Staffing costs inflate fares which in turn deter customers.
    The unions are totally short-sighted and clearly need to be reminded of Scargill

    A fellow on the radio over the week-end was talking about restrictive practices he experienced at British Leyland in the 1970s.

    Took me back...
    Workers got a much bigger slice of the economic pie in the 1970s, though, so they must have been doing something right.
    20% inflation as well.
    This time next year Rodney...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,865

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    I have always wondered why the TUC doesn't sell its Great Russell Street headquarters for zillions and move to, say, Hartlepool.
    Is the DFT HQ in Hartlepool? Are the franchise companies run from Hartlepool? Are a plurality of TUC members in Hartlepool?
    Glad you dealt with him. Cheers.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    TimS said:

    Hmm. I've been wondering why the flat above me has recently become the source of various weird and continually annoying noises: slams, scrapes, pops, noises of things sliding on wheels. I bet they've installed one of these sodding 'utility rooms':

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jun/20/its-a-middle-class-dream-come-true-how-the-utility-room-became-the-new-status-symbol

    The utility room is a reaction to the previous trend of ripping out every single partition and wall in your home, along with all the cupboards.

    So you end up with a pile of coats and boots next to the front door, the washing drying on every radiator and in the bathroom, and the washing machine itself drowning out conversation at diner. Along with a pile of washing in the kitchen/dining room.

    Yes, the functional but ugly rooms in houses are overdue a renaissance. Spacious utility rooms, laundry rooms with space for the ironing board and storage for bed linen, porches or boot rooms for the dirty shoes and pet bowls, garages, lofts, generously sized studies with plenty of filing space, the walk in toy cupboard in the child's bedroom, and finally the cloakroom next to the front door.

    A house with all of these is a tidy house.
    but requires the space of 2 modern executive houses....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,633

    darkage said:

    Reflecting on the situation with @JohnSmith reinforces the view that the Ukraine adventure is truly a bizarre misstep by Putin. Why not just continue with provocative acts that confuse people, defy explanation and can be plausibly denied? Why start a war of aggression in a moment of rage that alienates you from most of your supporters/sympathisers and is very difficult, if not impossible, to justify? I keep thinking back to Wallace's comment 'gone full tonto' and it seems he got it right.

    Much of the act when these characters appear seems to be about peddling random assertions about Russia and its objectives to see which ones are viewed sympathetically by this 'educated audience'. A meme building operation.

    What I don't understand is Putin (and his regime's) continued embiggening of the war aims. It started off as a limited (but b/s) attempt to denazify Ukraine and free the Russophile eastern areas (who were largely having their rights stamped on by the Russian-backed separatists).

    Whilst b/s, that was a consistent message with everything that has gone on before, and with it being a 'special operation'.

    However, the message has expanded considerably with the idea of a greater Russian Empire (which was obviously the main reason for the invasion in the first place). Threatening other neighbouring countries; claiming they should not be independent of Russia.

    It's like a drunkard fighting in a bar, calling out for everyone else to fight them if they're 'ard enough.
    People keep falling back to what I’ve taken to calling the Kronstein Fallacy (after the chess grand master who works for Spectre) - they assume that opponents are playing ultra rational chess.

    Putin actually believes in Greater Russian Nationalism. Ukraine is a part of Russia in that world view. If Russia gets infected by flabby western shit like gay rights and democracy, then it is The End Of Civilisation, to the GRN types. So Ukraine going “Western” is beyond wrong. It is End Times.

    So Putin believes he is in an existential battle for The Future Of The World
    There are two ways to explain Putin that both kind of work. The first is what you just said, the second is a dude with a huge pile of oil company shares who wants the price of oil to go up.

    Relatedly:

    Russia has blocked Kazakhstan from shipping oil to Europe through its port in Novorossiyk. This is seen as Russian retaliation against Kazakhstan for Kazakh President Tokayev refusing to support RU’s invasion of Ukraine

    https://twitter.com/Blake_Allen13/status/1538728133255389184
    If his Nationalism makes him richer - just proves he is right, doesn’t it?

    The classic of such spirals into extremism is that all external evidence is proof that You Are Right.
  • Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No it won't.

    What it will do is devalue the wealth or income of those who can't get their demands met, eg those who aren't working for a living so can't demand it.

    What we need is a good few years of high inflation for wage earners, with no inflation in pensions and other parasites who live off the backs of those who work for a living.

    The problem is the government seems to want the opposite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    See Macron lost his majority in the French Parliament last night and becomes the first French President since Chirac to not have a majority for his party in the National Assembly. Looks like he will have to do a deal with Les Republicains and the centre right to get most legislation through and avoid having to deal with Melenchon and Le Pen's blocks
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    I have always wondered why the TUC doesn't sell its Great Russell Street headquarters for zillions and move to, say, Hartlepool.
    Is the DFT HQ in Hartlepool? Are the franchise companies run from Hartlepool? Are a plurality of TUC members in Hartlepool?
    tbh I'd pocket the money and run. It's the TUC and a f&ck off building in prime residential/office/commercial space in London. At least move to Tooting.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, I think it's just the Government being so intensely stupid it seems bizarre to conclude that's all it could be.

    Like a deceptively easy exam question that has clever students scrambling to try and work out what they missed.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No, the businesses they employ will either pay them if they can afford it (which will put more money into consumer spending and income tax) or if they can't, they won't - and will lose staff and be forced to make the overdue investments in efficiency and automation the economy is crying out for.

    One of the very few things I agreed with Brexiteers on was the need for the UK to become a higher wage economy where not every business problem is solved by amassing vast amounts of cheap unskilled labour. Yet it seems the prominent Brexiteers are at the forefront of demands for pay restraint.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,316
    For @Stark_Dawning

    Good question. I guess we all have to decide for ourselves.

    Page 69 onwards is about the shisha bars:


    https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/media/6198/final-oldham-assurance-report-8-june-2022-14-digital-version.pdf


    At one stage a BBC journalist finds out about the shisha bars being allegedly used for grooming and sends an email demanding an explanation from Oldham Council. The reaction:

    "This email clearly caused consternation at the highest level in the council. On 10
    June 2013, Councillor W had a portfolio briefing meeting. The minutes
    recorded “Shisha Bar… Concern about the level of detail that [Journalist A]
    had”.


    " On 11 June, Journalist A called the press office
    at Oldham Council and asked for an opportunity to interview someone from
    the council. A meeting was held of senior politicians on 12 June, and it was
    decided that Councillor U would call Journalist A to discuss the matter.
    Councillor U later reported back to the press office that Journalist A had
    agreed to drop the story"


    What happened there, then?

    And then this, at a meeting in July::

    Chief Superintendent A opened the meeting with the statement that:

    Recognition was needed of the political sensitivities surrounding ‘Shisha
    Bars’ when they are being described as being used by Asian males to have
    sex with ‘white females’. Following discussion there was a consensus that
    there may be a perception of CSE occurring at these premises but, during all
    visits conducted by officers, there has been no hard and fast evidence to
    substantiate this. It was agreed that [the Greater Manchester Police press
    officer] should contact the BBC to try and talk them out of running the story
    as there is no substantive evidence to suggest that CSE is occurring in any
    of these premises and that they are not in fact Shisha Bars. There are no
    Shisha Bars in Oldham.”


    And yet


    The 2020 Greater Manchester Police internal report stated that in August
    2013 one intelligence log referred to an “Operation Messenger girl putting
    herself at risk by visiting shisha bars”... we have seen a report by the same analyst dated 2
    August 2013 that specifically names two children and the shisha bars visited.
    The police analyst informed Chief Inspector A by email that they had just
    discovered that there were serious concerns for Child 14, who was going out
    daily and meeting Asian men for sex and attempting to take other young
    women out with her (including, where they met prior to moving on to
    other places to have sex. The analyst’s email listed nine venues for such
    meetings, including three shisha bars. It is of concern that Child 2 had been
    drawn to the attention of the authorities as early as 2011, when she was a
    very young teenager, and was known to visit shisha bars


    And

    9. On 1 October 2013, intelligence was submitted on locations where
    ‘Operation Messenger girls’ were being sexually exploited. These locations
    included three shisha bars in Oldham – AYCE, Kloudz and Oasis.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    You could equate it to a 10% rise in the day-to-day spending of the government, so about £40bn. Hardly bankruptcy territory.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,995
    Leon said:

    The Oldham grooming report is out. Pretty grim


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/sexually-exploited-children-oldham-were-24270470


    If you read the actual report, there are two striking things (amongst others).

    1. The council tried to cover up the use of "shisha bars" for exploitation, and told a BBC journalist not to write about it, because of the "Lee Rigby murder" and the way the news might be used by "far right groups". So the pubic were not alerted to the danger of these places

    2. When confronted by their failings (such as this) Oldham Council's excuse is often "Well we're nowhere near as bad as other northern towns around us". No joke, that's what they say

    Not a fun story

    I lived in Bradford in the early 2000s and this report (and the events that prompted the report) have not been a surprise at any stage. Fact is that poor white kids from marginal/chaotic backgrounds were disgracefully let down out of fear of being seen as racist. I'd guess that the cases that have made court are the tip of the iceberg.

    This was never going to help the genuinely important work of community cohesion - rather it created a kind of Streisand-Effect-ish sort of factor where the right wing groups the LAs were afraid of actually got more mileage out of this, in particular affirming the complicity of the authorities.

    In a completely different way, like the postmaster scandal it illustrates the crucial importance of whistleblowing and open culture in big organisations (and, as an aside, the way the public sector manages internal promotion generally quite badly, incentivising the rise of non-operational types who are typically good at parroting culture but bad at actual work).
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    For the good of the country, I demand a 0% pay rise. My family may starve, my kids will go without but at least I know the country’s future is assured.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MISTY said:

    Railway workers aren’t asking for much - they’re just asking to not get a pay cut. Oh the horror.

    @Big_G_NorthWales check your privilege.

    They are not getting a pay cut but their pay rise is likely to be in the region of 4% and I expect that to be the norm across the public sector
    It is a pay cut in real terms. Why should they get a pay cut in real terms?
    Most people are getting a pay cut in real terms right now.

    Why are the rail workers a special case?
    The right-wing are always the same. Always having a go at people who are successful and wanting to level them down to make everyone equally miserable. What happened to aspiration?
    Yep, the RMT, a truly premier league trade union who get results every time. Many thought they'd struggle when Bob Crow moved on but turns out they're just as good under new boss Mick Lynch. And they're British. Why are we not celebrating them?
    If you fight you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always lose” -- Bob Crow.

    Irritating for those being fought and those in the crossfire, but by and large it seems to work.
    Met him once in a pub in Bloomsbury. He had a 'presence' no question.
    Redmolotov do a great T shirt Quote from Crow

    https://www.redmolotov.com/bob-crow-tshirt
    Brave person who wears that on a commuter train.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    HYUFD said:

    See Macron lost his majority in the French Parliament last night and becomes the first French President since Chirac to not have a majority for his party in the National Assembly. Looks like he will have to do a deal with Les Republicains and the centre right to get most legislation through and avoid having to deal with Melenchon and Le Pen's blocks

    Luckily for Macron he has successful form in dealing with other parties and I expect they will be able to come to a reasonable deal with the Republicains given the latter are desperate for relevance after their terrible showing in the presidential election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Interesting take from Tory candidate in Wakefield. "Nadeem Ahmed, the Tory candidate for Wakefield, argued that although he is a Conservative, voters "should still choose me – after all people still trust GPs despite Harold Shipman".

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/19/do-trust-boris-johnson-could-lose-two-key-by-elections-week/
  • TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No, the businesses they employ will either pay them if they can afford it (which will put more money into consumer spending and income tax) or if they can't, they won't - and will lose staff and be forced to make the overdue investments in efficiency and automation the economy is crying out for.

    One of the very few things I agreed with Brexiteers on was the need for the UK to become a higher wage economy where not every business problem is solved by amassing vast amounts of cheap unskilled labour. Yet it seems the prominent Brexiteers are at the forefront of demands for pay restraint.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you on this Tim.

    Let failed businesses lose staff if they're not able to compete. Whether those be railways, or cafes, or failed schools or anything else.

    Let successful, better managed ones get the staff instead, paying a decent wage.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No, the businesses they employ will either pay them if they can afford it (which will put more money into consumer spending and income tax) or if they can't, they won't - and will lose staff and be forced to make the overdue investments in efficiency and automation the economy is crying out for.

    One of the very few things I agreed with Brexiteers on was the need for the UK to become a higher wage economy where not every business problem is solved by amassing vast amounts of cheap unskilled labour. Yet it seems the prominent Brexiteers are at the forefront of demands for pay restraint.
    The prominent Brexiteers don't want people to have a decent standard of living they want Singapore on sea where cheap (easily replaced) labour can be hired and fired at whim.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,603

    Am I missing something important with the Carrie story, he didn't get her hired, so why does whether he tried to or not matter? If he had, it might be different, but he didn't.

    I know plenty of people who have suggested or hired their spouse or significant other for a role, its perfectly natural as you already generally trust your spouse or significant other so it makes sense to do so a lot of the time.

    If he'd overridden procedure and forced her into the role, that would be scandalous, but merely suggesting her then accepting the decision when she wasn't hired . . . why is that even a story?

    He had to declare the relationship. It is standard procedure.

    It is a conflict of interest and also a potential blackmail risk.

    As Foreign Secretary he supervises MI6 and you don’t want the FS compromised.
    The ghost of John Profumo (Secretary of State for War) is nodding in agreement.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2022
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No, the businesses they employ will either pay them if they can afford it (which will put more money into consumer spending and income tax) or if they can't, they won't - and will lose staff and be forced to make the overdue investments in efficiency and automation the economy is crying out for.

    One of the very few things I agreed with Brexiteers on was the need for the UK to become a higher wage economy where not every business problem is solved by amassing vast amounts of cheap unskilled labour. Yet it seems the prominent Brexiteers are at the forefront of demands for pay restraint.
    The demands for pay restraint are specifically for public sector pay, excessive rises in which inevitably lead to taxes going up for everyone else.

    Private sector companies are, of course, free to pay whatever they can agree with their employees. It’s good to note, especially at the minimum-wage end of the market, that the NMW is no longer seen as a maximum by employers used to unlimited supply of labour. The increased NI and income tax payments are to be welcomed by the government.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169

    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No it won't.

    What it will do is devalue the wealth or income of those who can't get their demands met, eg those who aren't working for a living so can't demand it.

    What we need is a good few years of high inflation for wage earners, with no inflation in pensions and other parasites who live off the backs of those who work for a living.

    The problem is the government seems to want the opposite.
    I reckon the government thought it wanted this, in the abstract, but the slightest hint of actual pay inflation and the old Thatcherite Pavlovian reflex kicks in. They are still mentally conditioned by the foundational Tory narratives of the 1970s and 80s.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If everyone demands inflation-style pay rises the country will go bankrupt.

    No, the businesses they employ will either pay them if they can afford it (which will put more money into consumer spending and income tax) or if they can't, they won't - and will lose staff and be forced to make the overdue investments in efficiency and automation the economy is crying out for.

    One of the very few things I agreed with Brexiteers on was the need for the UK to become a higher wage economy where not every business problem is solved by amassing vast amounts of cheap unskilled labour. Yet it seems the prominent Brexiteers are at the forefront of demands for pay restraint.
    The prominent Brexiteers don't want people to have a decent standard of living they want Singapore on sea where cheap (easily replaced) labour can be hired and fired at whim.
    Surely brexit reduces the pool of labour available to any employer, rather than increasing it...??
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